# Help with a Craftsman 24" 179cc blower



## NJMC (Feb 28, 2017)

Long story, but I bought this Craftsman 24" 179cc snow blower that was supposedly practically new but was in a flood........They were clear that it was for parts and the engine did not work..........it looked new and the engine turned over without a plug in it. 
I am retired and figured I would get it running and assumed most damage would be electrical. Everything appeared functional visibly. So I took it as it is only 2 years old.

Well the starter did not work, but I traced that down to the pushbutton bad. Te choke was jammed, and I uncovered the carb full of wet solids,,,,that is corroded and needs to be replaced............
Next I looked at the compression.......could not feel anything at the spark plug hole with my finger, but get air out the exhaust and some blow back of WD40 ( I wd 40'd everything) in the intake manifold where the carb is off. *I am looking at the rocker arms now and don't see them moving. ( I can push the valves in/out and the push rods seem firm )*

Never had worked on a small engine before..........*any ideas on the rocker arms? Could somehow the cam shaft be broken? * When I turn it over by hand, the cylynder moves and is clean and the output shaft & flywheel turn. 

Thanks in advance


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## mrfixit (Dec 3, 2016)

Put a new motor on it. Parts and time to fix this one could be extensive.


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## JLawrence08648 (Jan 15, 2017)

I'm going to take a guess with that engine. The cam turns off a gear to the crank. You need to go there. You need to get into the guts of the engine. Take the head off and see if the piston is going up and down. Then you need to get to the bottom of the engine. Of course drain the oil first. I'd at least look at it before I'd trash it only for the education. You may find it fixable. Then you might find it not to be worth it!


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## NJMC (Feb 28, 2017)

Yes, I can see the piston traveling threw the spark plug hole.............Mechanically, everything is moving except the push rods when cranked over..........
Just can't imagine the cam shaft broken??? Thanks


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## Vermont007 (Mar 29, 2015)

Is that one of those engines with aluminum push rods (one or both) ?

They do get bent; but I don't know how a flood would cause bending !


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## skutflut (Oct 16, 2015)

Does sound pretty strange that there is no movement on the rockers. Did you try swinging the rocker arms out of the way and holding the pushrods down tight to the lifters and turning the engine? If they do not move, then something is screwy with either the cam shaft, or the drive gear from the crank, or possibly the lifters are seized and the cam shaft is not even touching them, but that is a pretty remote possibility if neither one moves. Just thinking that the rockers might be loose and that the rods may be moving, but the rockers might not be if the gap is too wide.

The only way to find out may be to open the engine. Do you know what make and model it is? If it's a chinese engine, you might have trouble finding parts for it. Good way to discover small engines innards, and worst case, you get an engine from Harbour freight for 100.00 and put it on.


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## NJMC (Feb 28, 2017)

I have not pulled them out yet......was hoping for some ideas 1st if someone had experience with this engine before I dismantle more. I just can't imagine the cam shaft breaking. But I have no idea how much the push rods travel in these small engines........never worked on small engines. ( I could be missing the problem )


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## NJMC (Feb 28, 2017)

I am going to remove the rocker arms today and see what is going on there. I was hoping not to have to remove the engine, but looks like I am getting to that point. I will look at harbor freight.......for a $100 bucks or so, that may be the way to go, unless it is something I am missing.

Thanks...................


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## Dauntae (Nov 10, 2016)

Do you have the model number of the blower, it will help up see what engine you have and will be easier to help


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## NJMC (Feb 28, 2017)

It is a craftsman 24" 179cc model 247.889571 Electric start snow blower. Ser # 11c221B80365 or 1K221B80365 There are some stampings on the engine base 265-SU 1103173B0636
I have just confirmed the Steel pushrods are free and removable, but do not move Valves are free. 

Cylinder moves normally, flywheel and drive shaft all move normally............

Problem I see is the camshaft is not moving the pushrods............

Thanks so much.......I was just planning what has to be done to remove the engine and will hold off


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## Dauntae (Nov 10, 2016)

Here is a parts breakdown on the engine. It is actually a MTD with a craftsman name but none the less this is what I found so far.
https://www.partstree.com/parts/mtd/engines/265-su-mtd-engine/engine-assembly-265-su/


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## NJMC (Feb 28, 2017)

I just spoke to the engine Co...........they say it is highly unlikely that the cam shaft failed, but it does happen. They claim the push rods sit in small indents and that I should try to wiggle them while turning the unit over by hand, and maybe they can reseat.

If that does not work, I am thinking about pulling off the top head..........I should be able to see the cam shaft as there is a window and the rods are only 6" long.

Thoughts? And thanks for the diagram


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## skutflut (Oct 16, 2015)

Pulling the head will only let you see the dimpled ends of the lifters, maybe. If you can see them, you should be able to see if they move but you should be able to see that using the pushrods. Why not try loosening the rockers first to get them out of the way, then carefully insert the rods feeling for the dimple in the lifter, then turning the engine (with the plug out to make life easy) and see if you can detect 3/16 - 1/4 inch of lift on the rods. If not, you got a problem inside. Saves you a head gasket if nothing else.

On the other hand if that machine was under water, might be a good plan to pull the head and see if there is any rust of crap in the seats. I assume you have already drained whatever was in the crankcase....


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## NJMC (Feb 28, 2017)

I see in the diagram that there are tappets. do the tappets ride the cam shaft and the push rods sit in them? I am just wondering if they could be frozen, 
Last ditch effort before pulling the engine..............Thanks


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## Kiss4aFrog (Nov 3, 2013)

If it was deep in water that managed to get into the cylinder it could have been hydro-locked. If someone hit the electric start it might have created enough force to break a cam or ??? Since the engine can't compress water the force from trying to turn it over might have caused that damage.


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## NJMC (Feb 28, 2017)

That is entirely possible....and probable. The only saving grace is that the electric starter button failed ( but even that could have been from attempts to start) 
Just doing one step at a time before pulling the engine to tear down


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## skutflut (Oct 16, 2015)

NJMC said:


> I see in the diagram that there are tappets. do the tappets ride the cam shaft and the push rods sit in them? I am just wondering if they could be frozen,
> Last ditch effort before pulling the engine..............Thanks



Yes, the tappets (lifters) ride on the cam lobes, and the push rods ride the tappets. You cannot see as far down as the camshaft from the top of the cylinder (besides, its dark in there  . Only way to see the cam is open the sump cover. If the tappets are seized, you need to do that anyway to get them out and clean out the junk.

Have you taken the bottom transmission cover off the machine yet? Might be a good idea to look at that before you get too deep into replacing or rebuilding the engine, just in case that's rusted up solid too. I don't know what your repair budget is, but building something out of new parts can get pretty expensive if it needs a lot.


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## NJMC (Feb 28, 2017)

I just took the head off now and am taking some photos so I know where linkages go.......The tappets are frozen and there is junk there. I tried hitting them and they are stuck.........So the engine must come off and the side plate to see the cam and replace those tappets if everything else is OK.

*I did not think of the Trans*...Thanks......but that is something to check before I buy all the parts needed. So far it is just the carb, gaskets, tappets and a lot of WD40 IF everything else turns out OK..........and there is no real damage, ( I don't mind my time, cause I am retired )

Once I get the engine off the frame, I'll take a look at the trans. 

*Most important now.......*.
*Lastly, I need to to see how to check if the ignition parts are OK and I have spark, If all check out and we look clear I will order stuff.
*

A lot of "IF's" yet, but making progress to getting to the problem.

*Anyone with ideas on spark checking is welcome at this point.*


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## tpenfield (Feb 24, 2015)

From a cost standpoint, I think you are more economical going with a new engine.


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## NJMC (Feb 28, 2017)

It may come to that, but it is a learning experience so far..........the biggest exp is a carb so far if I decide to put it together.
Still need to check the internals, trans and ignition before I make the call. 
But I have been looking for a engine.........that gets pricey too


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

Kiss4aFrog said:


> If it was deep in water that managed to get into the cylinder it could have been hydro-locked. If someone hit the electric start it might have created enough force to break a cam or ??? Since the engine can't compress water the force from trying to turn it over might have caused that damage.


I wouldn't expect hydrolocking to mess with the valves too much, I guess. As soon as they start to move, they would relieve the pressure in the cylinder area. Now a damaged piston connecting rod, that *would* make sense to me with hydrolocking. 



NJMC said:


> *Most important now.......*.
> *Lastly, I need to to see how to check if the ignition parts are OK and I have spark, If all check out and we look clear I will order stuff.
> *...
> *Anyone with ideas on spark checking is welcome at this point.*


Remove the spark plug. Reattach the spark plug wire to the plug. Lay the plug on a metal area of the engine block (something next to the spark plug hole is good). You need to have the threads-area of the plug contacting bare metal on the block, to get a proper electrical connection. Position the plug so that you can see the gap between the electrode at the center of the plug, and the curved arm. 

Make sure the throttle lever is raised, key is in (if it has one), etc, so the engine is allowed to run, meaning the ignition is active. Now pull the starter cord quickly, you should see a bright blue spark between the curved arm and the center electrode of the plug.


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## skutflut (Oct 16, 2015)

NJMC said:


> I just took the head off now and am taking some photos so I know where linkages go.......The tappets are frozen and there is junk there. I tried hitting them and they are stuck.........So the engine must come off and the side plate to see the cam and replace those tappets if everything else is OK.
> 
> *I did not think of the Trans*...Thanks......but that is something to check before I buy all the parts needed. So far it is just the carb, gaskets, tappets and a lot of WD40 IF everything else turns out OK..........and there is no real damage, ( I don't mind my time, cause I am retired )
> 
> ...


Red's tips will let you see if there is spark or not. I kind of doubt that the carb is going to be your biggest expense at this point. From what you have found out so far, I think you are into quite a few parts. It sounds like that engine was completely submerged and filled with water, and debris. 
I think you are going to be in for 

a carb, 
piston rings which are probably rusted and seized in the grooves, 
oil seals for the crank, 
maybe a governor gear, possibly governor rod, 
complete gasket set, 
valves, or at least a valve lapping kit if the valve seats are rusty,
lifters (tappets) if the ones you have are rusted or pitted badly,
camshaft maybe.
other mechanical parts like cables which may be rusted and partly seized inside, transmission parts, axle bearings etc. 

I would delay ordering any parts until you get the engine apart, I guess you will find out the whole story on what it needs. Also check the flywheel magnets and stator under the flywheel (if there is one) for rust and make sure the magnets are firmly attached. The coil for the ignition should also be checked for rust on the edges so it doesn't scrape against the outside of the flywheel. In any case, you do seem to have a project there.....

Any idea if it was in salt water or fresh water, and how long it was under?


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## NJMC (Feb 28, 2017)

Thanks.............I will try later today.

The only issues: I have is the carb is off ...I guess I could try & figure out the position of the lever. And hopefully an auto plug will fit the boot as I don't have the original.

But I get the idea...............Thanks.


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## NJMC (Feb 28, 2017)

I think your right, but so far it has been an obsession to get to the bottom of it...........I am holding up buying until I get the full picture......spending like an hour or so per day.
*The picture gets bleaker everyday.* The replacement motor is about 400...........( think that is out of the question now)

I am into it 100.......if I can do 150 in parts.....I would be OK........much more than that and I think I would abandon it. It is just hard to give up when it looks brand new.

I assume salt water, as it came from the NJ shore...........and just was told it was flooded.no more details available.


Thanks again for everyone's help


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

You can get a Predator engine from Harbor Freight for $100, 212cc, so hopefully there is no need to spend $400 on a new engine. 

If the carb is off, you just need to disconnect the wire that grounds out the ignition when the throttle lever is down. I think an auto plug should be OK, but maybe you could borrow a plug from another small engine of yours. 

I agree with checking that the rest of the machine is viable before doing anything with the engine. I totally understand the interest in taking on the engine challenge. Just don't put $200 into an engine that *still* won't run


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## NJMC (Feb 28, 2017)

Red......What was that wire connected to that you mention? I have all the covers and linkages off, except for the ignition harness.

And I will look into that engine on harbor freight.......It is decent? ( I assume no electric start for that price......LOL )


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

I'd start with doing the ignition test as-is. If you get a spark, the question is answered. 

On my Tecumseh's, the wire in question is a little green wire that goes to the throttle lever assembly. But I don't know what it would be on your engine. 

The HF engine has a good reputation, search for Predator 212cc. No electric start, correct.


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## NJMC (Feb 28, 2017)

OK on the wire........I am looking at that Harbor freight engine...............looks pretty good and may be worth going that way.
I just have to check the shaft dimensions and configuration..........This has a double pulley and I have not gone that far to see how it comes off and what the original shaft is like.

That does make things easy if it fits


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## NJMC (Feb 28, 2017)

Update.........great spark, so that is one issue not to worry about.....LOL

I checked the shaft and mine is a 1" dia and the Harbor Freight engine is 3/4" I will have a problem with the hubs. I won't have that off until next week because I don't have a puller.

Am proceeding to remove the engine ........having clearance problems getting 1 bolt out......my long extension snapped and am using a wrench with very little room. ( IF this goes back, it goes back with only 3 bolts......LOL )


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## skutflut (Oct 16, 2015)

NJMC said:


> Update.........great spark, so that is one issue not to worry about.....LOL
> 
> I checked the shaft and mine is a 1" dia and the Harbor Freight engine is 3/4" I will have a problem with the hubs. I won't have that off until next week because I don't have a puller.
> 
> ...


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## Kiss4aFrog (Nov 3, 2013)

Plenty of places sell adapters to make the shaft bigger to fit the pulleys. https://www.google.com/search?q=3/4to+1"+shaft+adapter&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8


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## 43128 (Feb 14, 2014)

unfortunately, the mtd models have keys cast into the pulleys so a crankshaft adapter wont work. just buy 2 new pulleys at tractor supply for 10 bucks a piece. other than the pulleys the predator will be a direct swap


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## NJMC (Feb 28, 2017)

Skutfut..........that adapter looks like it may do it.

I am finished for the day on it......Have the engine off.........
Spark checked out good.
Auger turns freely
Drive appears free and active

The head and valves look like the unit was never fired up......no evidence of combustion.

I hit the tappets down, but now I can't get a full stroke.......So I believe the cam shaft is in place, although I have not opened it.
I soaked it again with WD40......with some luck, I may even break them free. 

Was starting to get discouraged, but feel better now..............and it is good to see a reasonable engine is an option with that adapter

Sure I can send some photos.....how do I get them uploaded or to you?


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## skutflut (Oct 16, 2015)

NJMC said:


> Skutfut..........that adapter looks like it may do it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Only thing to watch for with that adapter, is to make sure you get the right length. Some may be longer than you need and cutting them down to size might be a chore if you don't have the tools, or an expense if you have to get a shop to do it. Also, check your pulley and see if it has a keyway bar built into it, or if it has a notch and depends on the keyway being inserted into the shaft notch. The width of the key had to fit the notch either way.

You can upload photos through the message editor, but you have to select the ENHANCED editor in your control panel user options. There's a little paperclip icon in the top menu of the editor, click that, and a window opens. You might have to stretch the window to a larger size. Mine always opens small, where you can see the buttons to attach pictures, but the button to upload isn't showing until you stretch the window and the button appears in the bottom right corner.

As far as getting things moving, I still think you need to tear that engine down and clean up the insides, check all the parts (rings and things) to make sure everything that should move does, and what shouldn't move doesn't. If you get it to run without a clean up, it might not run long which would be a real PITA if you need it to move snow.


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## NJMC (Feb 28, 2017)

Skutflut I uploaded some photos to an album on the site.....but can not figure out how to link them to a post
Craftsman 179cc storm flooded repair Unless this link works Snowblower Forum : Snow Blower Forums - NJMC's Album: Craftsman 179cc engine repair

I am currently soaking the tappets and will open cover for internals Tuesday So I will have to make a engine decision then.

Thanks for everyone' s help in getting me this far..............


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## skutflut (Oct 16, 2015)

Doesn't look too bad, except for that intake manifold junk. I would imagine there will be some grit and pollution inside the engine that needs cleaning out. Also looks like the cylinder might be pitted where the water sat on top of the piston, which might be a problem. I assume you are planning to tear it all the way down for cleaning at least, and to determine is it's worth salvaging. 

You also want to remove the shear bolts from the augers and see if they spin freely on the internal shafts. Good chance they are rusted up somewhat, but with the apparent low or no hours, maybe you will be lucky and the original grease is still there and has protected them to some extent. Thats one of the important maintenance items for snowblowers, because if you do not lubricate the augers yearly, they WILL rust inside, and at some point, when you hit something hard, the rust will prevent the shear bolts from doing their job and something more expensive will break. 

You will need to clean up the pulleys and get all that rust off the grooves so that you don't eat the belts. As I mentioned before, you do have a project there.


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## NJMC (Feb 28, 2017)

So far, all machine parts on the top end with the exception of the tappets are clean and not pitted...everything underneath seems free and functional and well lubed now.....the carb was destroyed. 
I am hoping for the best but ready to get a replacement if needed. It would be more enjoyable getting this one running with electric start, and I am sure it is better quality than the $100 unit long term

Tuesday I meet with some corvette owners in a shop and will have help pulling off the pulley and inspecting the internals. Hopefully, I get those tappets free by then.........just poured some motor medic treatment I had in the garage on them.


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## skutflut (Oct 16, 2015)

Ah will be nice to have some shop tools available for pulleys and other stubborn items. Corvette guys will probably have a good eye for what ails it. Don't be too surprised if they razz you a bit about 7 missing cylinders and lack of fuel injection or superchargers though


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## NJMC (Feb 28, 2017)

ha ha........I am one of those corvette owners..........we are just a bunch of old guys who don't work anymore and meet on Tuesdays.
But yes, having all tools around makes the job easier..........But there will also be 7 different opinions on what to do too!


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## skutflut (Oct 16, 2015)

NJMC said:


> ha ha........I am one of those corvette owners..........we are just a bunch of old guys who don't work anymore and meet on Tuesdays.
> But yes, having all tools around makes the job easier..........But there will also be 7 different opinions on what to do too!


good, one for each missing cylinder


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## NJMC (Feb 28, 2017)

And believe me.......some of them there are "Missing" something. A few fix things, a few just replace everything, a few are clueless and have someone else do everything, and you have the "Know it all's" who just tell stories and a few willing to work.
I guess no different than any other group


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## skutflut (Oct 16, 2015)

NJMC said:


> And believe me.......some of them there are "Missing" something. A few fix things, a few just replace everything, a few are clueless and have someone else do everything, and you have the "Know it all's" who just tell stories and a few willing to work.
> I guess no different than any other group


Yup, sounds like the typical mix...


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## NJMC (Feb 28, 2017)

Final update to the problem.........

Narrowed it down to frozen tappets..........Removed the shaft end cover, removed the cam shaft cleaned up the tappets and reinstalled everything.

Engine was so new that I did not even need new gaskets...........Blower now runs perfect.

Investment.......$100 for blower, $63 for new electric starter, $15 for new carb............& have a basically new $650 machine.
Although I just missed the last snow for the year by 1 day.......have it all lubed up , filled with treated gas and a set of belts on order.

Thanks for everyone's help


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## skutflut (Oct 16, 2015)

I would suggest draining that treated gas out, throwing it in the car, running the engine until the carb is empty, and letting the gas residue in the tank evaporate, then close it up and leave it empty until next winter. Your manual probably recommends draining fuel for long term storage.

Old gas, treated or not will probably give you trouble 6 months from now. It does get stale and loses it's "fizz" factor


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## NJMC (Feb 28, 2017)

I was tossed on those 2 approaches and read people recommend both. 
I leaned toward keeping the tank topped off to keep air out and keep the metal covered. 

I can honestly see the logic to both............my plan was to start it say 1x per month ( easy to say now) .

Now you have me on the fence.

Thanks.......you have me thinking now. Appreciate the help.


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

That's awesome that you got it running again, after being flooded! Very cool. 

Ask 5 people what to do for the off-season, and you'll get 7 answers  I use fuel stabilizer (I use it even during the season), and at the end of the season I close the fuel shutoff and run the carb dry. It's worked well for me so far.


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## NJMC (Feb 28, 2017)

Thanks................It became an obsession to get it running. All mechanical' s inside were surprisingly clean and I don't think water got into the casing.......just the tank, carb, starter, muffler and valve cover to hit the tappets. Did not pull the cylinder, but head was clean and rings are seating because compression is good . I bet I have more run time on it now from testing than it had before I bought it.

Only long term issue that can arise is bearings......although I should look at the ignition parts if I get time and maybe clean them up, even though spark is good

Tank cleaned up well with vinegar. 

I keep running it for ten minutes or so to work it in, and I can only lube it up so much. Just missed our last snow by 1 day when the starter arrived........I could not pull start it ( but I have a bad ticker and could not exert that much either.) Either probably would have kicked it over......

One project down and now onto other things with nice weather coming. Thanks again, and have a good summer.........LOL


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