# Help deciding on which Ariens Pro to buy



## tre (Oct 2, 2018)

I'm currently using a John Deere X340 with a Deere 44" snowblower mounted on the front of it to remove snow from my driveway. Driveway is relatively flat with a slight incline at the bottom (< 10 degrees). My driveway has a 100' x 15' bottom part which is curvy and leads to a 50' x 35' pad in front of the garage. I no longer use the John Deere for mowing the lawn so I feel like it is overkill to keep it just for snow and I'd love to free up some room in the garage. I've decided on an Ariens professional series with a minimum 32" width. We are in the open so I have frequent drifts and we are near Lake Michigan where we get some very wet heavy snows. 

I'm currently leaning toward a "vanilla" Professional 32 926071 with the friction disc trans, wheels, and Polar Force 420 with a carb because it is relatively simple and easy to work on. However, I'm slightly tempted by the 32" hydro rapid track and even the 36" hydro EFI. I'm not sure I need the rapid track and I'm worried it will make the machine less maneuverable and more difficult to use. I like the idea of a larger 36" machine with hydro trans but it sounds like the EFI is still in pretty limited release and I'm not sure I want to be one of the guinea pigs to test it. I plan on keeping this machine 10 years and upgrading again 10 years from now. 

Any help or advice would be much appreciated.

P.S. - I looked at Honda and ruled it out. Yamaha is not sold here. Simplicity dealer is too far and I'm not interested in Toro or MTD. lol


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## rslifkin (Mar 5, 2018)

As a note, the EFI Ariens Pros only hold a half-gallon of fuel compared to 1.5 gallons on the carb-ed Pros. That might be a deciding factor for you. 



With a fairly flat driveway like that I'd say you shouldn't need tracks. 



Personally, I just picked up a Pro 28 for this winter (carb / friction disc) so the slightly smaller brother to the 32 you're considering. Of course, I haven't gotten to try it out in the snow yet...


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## nastorino (Jan 28, 2016)

I purchased and early 2017 Platinum EFI 24" and it ran excellent the first season. The greatest reason there were so many issues was the battery for the ECU was not being charged before shipping it from the vendor or from the dealer to the customer. Once that battery dies the ECU can't think straight. That being said if you operate a above half throttle it will recharge itself. I went all summer without charging my machine and it started on the first pull two weeks ago. The Platinum SHO could really toss snow, i was impressed.

I upgraded the following year to a 28" Hydro Pro EFI and again have no complaints with the machine. it's a beast is an understatement. There was nothing it couldn't throw far. Even the newspapers it swallowed shredded and flew.


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## tre (Oct 2, 2018)

Thanks for the feedback about the EFI. Charging a battery is not a big deal for me (I have loads of electric RC planes and deal with batteries all the time). I am a little worried about the small fuel tank. I downloaded the manual and noticed it is only 2 quarts vs 1.5 gallons as rslifkin pointed out. I don't have an issue refilling the gas each time I snow blow but I would not want to stop and refill 1/2 way through.


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## leonz (Dec 12, 2014)

What swayed you to not buy a new 14 horse wheel unit Toro with the new anti clog feature? distance from a dealer?


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## 1132le (Feb 23, 2017)

leonz said:


> What swayed you to not buy a new 14 horse wheel unit Toro with the new anti clog feature? distance from a dealer?



they are not 14 hp toro should be ashamed of themselves for having a 14 in the description
it would be a 15 hp they way the old engines were rated 13 hp but those were only 10 and change
thats a 12.8 ish hp engine and thats only if the max rpms are set right many are not
aeiens pros brigs or the lct ax414 are also not 14hp atleast they dont try and hint it
simplicity has a 420cc thats only rated at 16.5 ft lbs thats slighty over 10 hp legit


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## rslifkin (Mar 5, 2018)

As far as HP ratings, based on the published torque curve from Briggs and a bit of math, the 420cc on the Ariens Pros is good for 13.5 hp at 3600 RPM. The curve doesn't go past 3600 so it's hard to know the true peak, but based on how it drops at the end of the curve, it's likely around 13.6 hp at 3700 and I doubt it hits 14 hp at any RPM. Peak torque is 21 lb-ft at 2600 RPM according to the Briggs specs, but the chart shows that the real peak is more like 21.2 lb-ft at 2850 rpm. Briggs doesn't publish a max RPM spec, so I'm going by the Ariens spec of 3600 +/- 100 and figuring 3700 is max RPM. 

Using the LCT 414cc from the Platinum 30 SHO as an example, peak torque is 20 lb-ft at 3040 RPM. The LCT 420cc used on the EFI Pros is good for 21 lb-ft at 3050 RPM. Both are spec-ed as 3850 +/- 50 RPM for top speed from LCT. There are no published torque curves that I can find, so I can't calculate peak HP for them. Based on the torque peak being at a higher RPM and the engines being spec-ed fairly high for max RPM, I'd say peak HP is likely in the 13.5 - 14 range for the 414cc and probably 14 - 14.5 hp for the 420cc, providing the drop in torque past the peak isn't overly steep. 

In theory, the LCT 420cc on the EFI Pros should be a little more powerful (in the range of 0.5 - 1 hp at max RPM) than the Briggs 420cc on the carb-ed Pros, despite the identical torque ratings. And if the Briggs is set for 3700 and the LCT at 3900 (upper end of spec for both), the LCT will have higher impeller speeds and will move more snow. 

Interestingly, Ariens specs the LCT engine at 3600 +/- 50, so a full 250 RPM below what LCT says it can do. That would likely keep the 2 more equal in power if the Ariens specs are followed. It also makes me curious what the real spec is for the Briggs, but I can't find it published. The manual just says that max engine speed is set by the equipment manufacturer (and lists no spec from Briggs).


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## 1132le (Feb 23, 2017)

the hp formula is
torqu x rpm div by 5252


toro

so if peak torque is 21ft lbs @2850 its lucky to be 18ft lbs @3600
18x3600=64800 div by 5252=12.33 hp generous

19 x3600=68400 div by 5252=13.02 19 ft lbs is very generous

21x3600=75600 div by5252= 14.3 21 ft lbs only losing 1 ft lb almost 30% higher then stated peak torque not going to happen


LCT


17 x 3600=61200 dive by 5252=11.65 understating only 550 rpm fter peak torque

18 x3600=64800div by 5252=12.33 lct prolly makes 18 ftlb at this rpm as it has a higher peak torque

19x3600=68400=13.02 19 ft lbs not going to happen


my numbers


17x3825=65025 div by 5252= 12.38
18x 3825=68850 div by 5252=13.10 on it best day prolly not


Someone on here tried to tell me he thinks the reason the honda peak torque is at 2500 because the engine is run lean
I told him thats not how a power curve works smh
many smaller engines peak at 2500 rpm the highest ive seen is the lct 3050 or 1 other @ 3100






lct having a higher peak torque helps the engine make higher hp at the same rpm as the toro because it peaks later
thats the same as putting in a cam that has longer duration and lift to move the power curve higher without getting to the who lobe seperation angle etc
all hp is a value of torque move the torque curve higher in the rpm you get more hp at a higher rpm
all you are doing is moving the torque curve


I agreet he efi will have a lil more power as that holds the torque curve longer as you get closer to max rpm I SAW a power curve of this
If that is true you know believe nothing you hear and 50% of what a dealer puts out
i used a 30 efi ariens with the 15 lbs 306cc it felt like it was more powerfull in the deep stuff then a carb the egov was insanely good


most blowers are not running 3600 my 414cc was 3525 town 414cc was 3450 ish only 2 or 3 that i ever checked were at 3600 or better 1 was my brothers 

lets face it how many check there rpms? 1/2 of 1%? most on here dont even do it


Increasing the impeller speed via raising the engine rpm is what gives the best gain
the ariens pro claim a higher impeller rpm over sho town ordered a pro sheave it was the same size as his they also use the same size bottom pulley
why dont you measure your impeller rpm and put that to bed it would be interesteing to know
3825 got me 1111 impeller rpm
it was 1020 ish i think it was before i raised the motor you get around 30 impeller rpm for every 100 engine rpm
honda run 1280 impeller rpm and some are 3800 engine rpm that makes there 270cc engine look like it has more power along with there tighter drum

for toro to call it 14 hp is a sham imo


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## Zavie (Sep 23, 2014)

I don't see anywhere in Toro's specs concerning the Power Max® HD 1428 OHXE Commercial (38843) that they even mention 14HP. They do say that it's a 420cc snow engine however. Maybe the 14 is for impeller size? Peak engine curves and output are useful to a point. Beyond that it's what the engine connects to, to move the snow. As far as the OP, any of the mentioned choices are great choices for the driveway situation mentioned IMHO.


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## rslifkin (Mar 5, 2018)

The Briggs 420cc shows 19.8 lb-ft at 3600 on the Briggs chart. The drop off isn't as steep as you might think on a lot of the newer engines. With a 420cc LCT peaking a couple hundred RPM higher than the Briggs torque-wise, I could easily see it being 20 lb-ft at 3600 (13.7 hp) and 18.5, maybe 19 lb-ft if we're optimistic at 3900 (max spec-ed RPM), so 13.7 - 14.1 hp. 

Of course, with a lot of the manufacturers providing limited information beyond peak torque, it's hard to really know for sure what a lot of these engines put out. 

Fuel mixture being off can definitely change the shape of the power curve a little, as it may not suffer equally across the board. It wouldn't dramatically reshape the curve though.


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## 1132le (Feb 23, 2017)

rslifkin said:


> The Briggs 420cc shows 19.8 lb-ft at 3600 on the Briggs chart. The drop off isn't as steep as you might think on a lot of the newer engines. With a 420cc LCT peaking a couple hundred RPM higher than the Briggs torque-wise, I could easily see it being 20 lb-ft at 3600 (13.7 hp) and 18.5, maybe 19 lb-ft if we're optimistic at 3900 (max spec-ed RPM), so 13.7 - 14.1 hp.
> 
> Of course, with a lot of the manufacturers providing limited information beyond peak torque, it's hard to really know for sure what a lot of these engines put out.
> 
> Fuel mixture being off can definitely change the shape of the power curve a little, as it may not suffer equally across the board. It wouldn't dramatically reshape the curve though.



Ive seen power curves it drops more then thatif they are legit

either way 20 ft lbs is plenty of motor the higher impeller speeds is where the gain are at and the impeller kit
Id like to see the briggs chart showing 19.8 at 3600 thats only down 1.2 ft lbs
those are gross numbers not net as per brigs website
no the 14 doesnt stand for impeller size the 1028 oxe when then have a 10 inch impeller and the 928 a 9 inch impeller


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## rslifkin (Mar 5, 2018)

1132le said:


> Ive seen power curves it drops more then thatif they are legit


It really depends on the engine design as far as how steeply the curve drops off and where. Flatheads will tend to have a narrower powerband than OHV engines, for example. Engines with big cams and poor flowing intake / exhaust / cylinder heads will also be much more peaky than one with a milder cam and good flowing ports. 
Chances are, there's a point in the curve where the Briggs starts to drop off more steeply, we just can't see it because the published graph ends at 3600 rpm. It might start to run out of breathing ability and fall off really fast after 3700 - 3800, for example.


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## 1132le (Feb 23, 2017)

rslifkin said:


> It really depends on the engine design as far as how steeply the curve drops off and where. Flatheads will tend to have a narrower powerband than OHV engines, for example. Engines with big cams and poor flowing intake / exhaust / cylinder heads will also be much more peaky than one with a milder cam and good flowing ports.
> Chances are, there's a point in the curve where the Briggs starts to drop off more steeply, we just can't see it because the published graph ends at 3600 rpm. It might start to run out of breathing ability and fall off really fast after 3700 - 3800, for example.



my point they are around 12 real hp all of them
torque is what matter with a blower not hp
my old 358cc ohv tec was rated at 17.5 ft lbs yet was rated 13 hp it was really a 10.9 ish real hp
the old 10hp flat heads were lucky to 8.9
the 8 hp were lucky to be 7.9
combine that with most not being set to max rpms and let the games begin
the preditor 212cc has more power then a hm80 nottttttttttttt
the hm80 had much more torque
people put the 212cc on and set the rpm at 3900 and there impeller gains 100 rpm so it muct be that engine they call a hemi is why it throws better etc etc etc


my 30 yr old rust bucket 8 hp tec st824 set to 3725 with and impeller kit and it became a star in 95% of conditions will clear just as good as 28 sho
without the kit and set to 3400 where it was its a sub par blower they were rated to blow the best snow 25 feet this shoots crap 35 feet and the best stuff 45 feet

i would put it up vs any new blower without the kit other then honda who has the tight drum in heavy watery conditions maybe a 30 sho or my 28 with 414cc or a pro with a 420 cc would match it or beat it


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## rslifkin (Mar 5, 2018)

Torque and HP both matter, quite honestly. HP is a measure of how much work it can do in a given amount of time. 

So more HP means more snow moved, provided the bucket size, impeller design, impeller RPM, etc. are able to take advantage of it (rather than the engine just never reaching full load). 

Torque matters when you dive into the EOD pile and the augers bite into a chunk of icy crap. More torque means the engine can apply more force to keep the augers turning against the load before everything stops and the engine stalls (assuming for a minute that you'll stall it without breaking a shear pin or damaging anything else or slipping the belts). 

Not being set to max RPM is a whole different issue. That doesn't take away from what the engine is capable of, it just means that less than 100% of its capability is being used. 

In your Predator vs HM80 example, the HM80 would be the harder engine to stall when you really bind things up, being that it makes more torque. But if the Predator with the RPM cranked up is making more HP than the HM80 and spinning the impeller faster, it'll move more snow. Now, if they're making the same HP, you could change the pulleys on the HM80 to get the faster impeller speed (negating the difference in engine operating RPM) and it'll suddenly move just as much snow as the Predator.


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## 1132le (Feb 23, 2017)

rslifkin said:


> Torque and HP both matter, quite honestly. HP is a measure of how much work it can do in a given amount of time.
> 
> So more HP means more snow moved, provided the bucket size, impeller design, impeller RPM, etc. are able to take advantage of it (rather than the engine just never reaching full load).
> 
> ...



rs you dont have to explain to me how torque and hp work do you really think you do?


the only time blowers are struggling is in the plow pile where torque matters ( hence my comment torque is what blowers need not hp )



the pred is not making more hp all its doing is spinning the impeller faster which is why it throws better so people who dont know any better asume its from making more power its not ITS THE IMPELLER SPEED INNCREASE ffrom running the engine 300 or 400 rpm higher some tecs ive checked were set at 3200 that would be a 700 rpm increase or ruffly 200 faster impeller speed

as one who has changed his rpms and modified my my impeller speed and used and impeller kit
stands to reason that i have a fair clue what iam saying
when my rust bucket 8hp which was set at 3200 and went to 3725 it was like i bolted at on a 13 hp engine
it was the faster impeller speed
honda has shown higher impeller speeds of close to 1300 rpm and 3800 engine rpm make a 270cc throw better then the old 32 pro ariens with there over rated 13hp engine ( i had one )
now a 20 ft lbs engine and a impeller kit on the ariens the honda loses
but the honda still throws snow 50 feet 

honda 389 cc cant match a 414cc or a 420 cc with the 21 ft lbs engine
ive seen 1 vid of 1132 honda throwing over tree tops with impeller kit it gees wonder if it works


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## leonz (Dec 12, 2014)

The new toros have the added benefit of their patented anti clog system so that helps with wet snows and the END OF DRIVEWAY MONSTER.

You can always add larger jets to the carburator to get around the poor performance issues as the EPA rules require the small gas engines to produce fewer emmissions.


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## 1132le (Feb 23, 2017)

leonz said:


> The new toros have the added benefit of their patented anti clog system so that helps with wet snows and the END OF DRIVEWAY MONSTER.
> 
> You can always add larger jets to the carburator to get around the poor performance issues as the EPA rules require the small gas engines to produce fewer emmissions.



the anti clog has you blow the snow twice though that slows down removal rate anti clog wont blow almost straight water it will just bypass 

with the impeller kit everything that goes in the bucket comes out the 1st time that speeds up removal rate and tons per hr spec
my lct has no issues with the lean jet 

i do wish it was and adjustable carb though


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## leonz (Dec 12, 2014)

I agree that it makes a poor water pump and an impeller kit will always work as long as the engine and drive system is good.

If you want to see a rotary snow plow pump water: 
the two rotary snow plows mounted on airport trucks were used the last time Laguardia air port was severely flooded where they parked them in a low spot near a drainage ditch, set the air parking brakes, engaged the power take offs on the transmissions and the rotary plows started pushing water and blowing it into the drainage ditch as the water they had to pump out and deal with could not reach the drainage system. 


The patented Toro anti clog system is a an effective compromise with a small engine as it reduces the overloading in the impeller housing due to the open auger design on every snow blower to permit the engine to work flat out through the belt drive and through to the impeller with a small amount of resistance from the snow pack. 

If every snow blower had a V twin on it using the snow shark design with an 8 inch wide impeller paddle with a 16 inch impeller housing we would never have the problems that are inherent in the two stage design as the snow shark design with the simple chain drive system for the cross augers and the wheel drive.

The Snow Shark set up with serrated solid augers could be employed on a track drive system with a bit of design work.


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## tre (Oct 2, 2018)

leonz said:


> What swayed you to not buy a new 14 horse wheel unit Toro with the new anti clog feature? distance from a dealer?


The Toro dealer is a 15 min drive so I stopped by to look at them in person. I waited about for 10 min while sales people doing nothing stared at me and kept their distance. I finally asked for some help and was told someone would be right with me. I waited another 10 minutes while staff doing nothing continued to ignore me. Finally I walked out and vowed never to return. Interestingly, 11 years ago I was debating between a Deere and Simplicity riding mower and I had the exact same experience with the same dealer (who sold Simplicity) so I purchased a Deere instead. I do have an Ace hardware very close to me and they sell Toro snowblowers but they do not service them. I want to make sure I have dealer service just in case. The local dealer networks helped narrow my choices to Ariens and Honda. I eventually ruled out Honda based on the lower power engines, the clogging problems with the new design, and the fact I could only get a tracked unit in a 32" blower. With Ariens, I have the choice of tracks or wheels, EFI or carb, friction disc or hydro transmission which led me to the pro 32 or pro 36.


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## leonz (Dec 12, 2014)

DID you go right up to the sales counter and wait?? Would you be willing to go back if a complaint was made to Toro about the dealer not talking to you? IF you call Toro directly I am sure the dealer himself or herself will call you back as that is inexcusable.


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## hockeyman5150 (Aug 22, 2018)

1132le said:


> honda run 1280 impeller rpm and some are 3800 engine rpm that makes there 270cc engine look like it has more power along with there tighter drum


Would you mind helping me by elaborating on this same topic? I am considering a Ariens PRO 28 against a Honda HSS 928. I am trying to get the best machine for handling the EOD and lake-effect snow without clogging.


ALL the numbers (on paper) are in the Ariens' favor. (Engine size (cc's), Auger diameter, impeller diameter, chute diameter, throughput,etc. However, all I keep reading is how the Honda is SO superior. I just am trying to understand how this makes for a better unit. 


From what I am understanding in your post, the Honda is spinning faster with a smaller displacement engine and smaller drum. So wouldn't the smaller drum be more prone to bogging down? The ~21 ft/lbs of torque on the Pro 28 seems to sound like a better snow moving machine for heavy and/or wet snow - am I missing something? 


Any takes on the B&S engine on these would be greatly appreciated, too. Full disclosure - I currently own a Honda HS55 with a bad tranny, so I am looking to replace. The quality on the Honda HAS been great, always starts on first pull (with normal oil, fuel & lube maintenance) - hoping for same from the B&S. 


Thanks!


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## obionekenobi (Sep 3, 2015)

The difference with Honda's is they run a higher impeller speed and the drum is tighter (less gap with the impeller). This makes for a machine that throws snow farther and should have less tenancy to clog. IMO no comparison between a Briggs engine and a Honda. Honda hands down makes the best small engines money can buy. I have never had a problem with their power equipment starting or running well when properly maintained. They are a higher quality engine that B&S without a doubt. I do run an Ariens Deluxe snow blower and have been very happy with the build quality and performance. However I wish I had a Hydrostatic transmission for the ease changing speeds on the fly and I like their new joystick chute rotation mechanism as well. Ariens controls are a little less user friendly but that is after all part of what you are paying for with the Honda machine.


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## hockeyman5150 (Aug 22, 2018)

So if Comparing similarly sized Honda (270 cc) vs ariens (420 cc) 28" units, the Honda IS a fair comparison because of the impeller speed? Sounds to me like the ariens should clear more snow faster, esp at EOD- is that not the case? Wet, lake effect snow is common here near Buffalo, NY.


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## 1132le (Feb 23, 2017)

hockeyman5150 said:


> So if Comparing similarly sized Honda (270 cc) vs ariens (420 cc) 28" units, the Honda IS a fair comparison because of the impeller speed? Sounds to me like the ariens should clear more snow faster, esp at EOD- is that not the case? Wet, lake effect snow is common here near Buffalo, NY.


No its not even close hockeyman the 420 has 50% more power

you know in your heart what you should do or should by now
it blows snow 60 feet
if you want tracks get the 28 sho track for 2099 17 ft lbs engine

if wheels the 28 pro its your choice 21 ft lbs engine
hss928 14.1 ft lbs needs to be jetted to function


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## Zavie (Sep 23, 2014)

obionekenobi said:


> The difference with Honda's is they run a higher impeller speed and the drum is tighter (less gap with the impeller). This makes for a machine that throws snow farther and should have less tenancy to clog. IMO no comparison between a Briggs engine and a Honda. Honda hands down makes the best small engines money can buy. I have never had a problem with their power equipment starting or running well when properly maintained. They are a higher quality engine that B&S without a doubt. I do run an Ariens Deluxe snow blower and have been very happy with the build quality and performance. However I wish I had a Hydrostatic transmission for the ease changing speeds on the fly and I like their new joystick chute rotation mechanism as well. Ariens controls are a little less user friendly but that is after all part of what you are paying for with the Honda machine.


I've had Briggs engines since the 80's and I've never had a problem. On my Craftsman push mower with the briggs I mowed 3/4 acre some of it too tall and rough for a push mower and still it kept going for over 20 years. Power washer, generator, snow blowers, etc...

As far as the controls on the Ariens, get behind the controls on the Pro series, they are stellar. I have compared them to the new Toro HD"S and the Ariens Pro wins hands down IMHO. I've heard that the chute rotation on the Honda's is slow. Is that the case?


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## Lunta (Dec 14, 2017)

I would be careful about making the decision based on just engine power/torque figures. There's a lot happening in between the engine and the snow flying out the chute.


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## rslifkin (Mar 5, 2018)

More power means it should be able to move a larger volume of snow in a given amount of time, provided the rest of the blower is reasonably well optimized to the available engine power. That means a bigger engine on a given size blower should let you walk faster in a given snow depth and should chew up a given EOD pile faster. A bigger engine doesn't necessarily mean more throwing distance or anything, however.


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## Ariens hydro pro (Jan 24, 2014)

The 420CC pro machines have power too. But a 24" X 36" wide bite of heavy plow end of driveway snow will bog the engine. So on a 36" machine you will need to take smaller bucket fulls or slow your ground speed for the real heavy stuff.


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