# Toro CCR2500 over revs and will not shut off



## dhelsel1 (11 mo ago)

I have an older Toro CCR2500 that after about 15 minutes of working starts to increase RPM drastically. The switch has no effect at this high RPM. My only way to shut it down is to engage the paddle and push it into a bank of snow while the key is turned off. This forces the engine to slow down and then you can tell when the engine actually begins to shut off. It acts like it is in pre-ignition mode at the high RPMs and not requiring a spark to run. My concern is that it will reach a point of destruction if I can not find a snow bank. Appreciate any suggestions from anyone that has an idea on where to start.
Thanks


----------



## Cstanis (Oct 19, 2021)

I would start with removing the back cover and take a look at the governor it almost sounds like it is sticking. Why it won't shut off when the switch is turned could be a bad switch or wire issues. You should be able to test the switch with a meter.


----------



## dhelsel1 (11 mo ago)

The last time it did this (yesterday) I flipped it up so I could reach the governor wire coming from the shroud, and it was free. But I will take another look at it today. Not sure about the switch as it works fine when it is running at the normal RPM. It is only when it is running at the much higher RPM that it has no effect. As soon as I can load the engine down by shoving it in a snow bank, the switch will become effective as soon as the RPM drops to around normal. It is like the engine is running without the spark ignition at the higher RPMs. 
Thanks


----------



## Cstanis (Oct 19, 2021)

Do you have any pictures? I am not sure what you are talking about regarding the governor wire? Most governors to my knowledge have a spring and rod connected to them by the carb.


----------



## dhelsel1 (11 mo ago)

Poor choice of words on my part. It is a rod that runs from the engine to the carburetor. It moves freely with no binding.


----------



## Cstanis (Oct 19, 2021)

Something seems to be an issue with the carb. I would remove the cover to expose the carb run it and watch the governor to see if it sticks. Pictures would help


----------



## Cstanis (Oct 19, 2021)

After thinking about it a little bit more usually an extremely lean condition can cause this. You could have an air leak by the manifold or head gasket.


----------



## dhelsel1 (11 mo ago)

Great ideas. Today is going to jump up to 30 degrees, so a good day to take a look and see if everything is tighten. I will try for a few photos as well.


----------



## Cstanis (Oct 19, 2021)

Check the plug and take a picture of it as well


----------



## LouC (Dec 5, 2016)

I had this with my CCR 3000, what it seemed to be was an air leak around the throttle plate, apparently this is common on the Suzuki engines with the Mikuni carb, I wound up replacing the carb & that fixed it. Also adjusted the governor at the same time, the Suzuki engine used a centrifugal governor (internal to the engine) not an air vane governor like the Tecumseh engines used.


----------



## dhelsel1 (11 mo ago)

Ok, back from a short tear down and inspection. I hope to include some photos this time. I did find the one end of the small spring not attached at one end of the rod to the carburetor(#975), I reattached this (#982). I also included a photo of the Toro Model plate (977) and the engine plate(980) and a last one of the governor coming from the engine (985). I did check the carburetor mounting bolts and they were tight. I put it back together and it started right up, so I let it run for about 5 minutes. It than started to increase in RPMs again. So I quickly shut it down. I did not see the posting asking for a photo of the plug. I will do that next.


----------



## dhelsel1 (11 mo ago)

Here are some photos of the plug. This was just after a 5 minute run, then going into the higher RPM, then shutting down,


----------



## Cstanis (Oct 19, 2021)

To me it sounds like an air leak somewhere around the carb. I think LouC in his post is leaning the same way


----------



## dhelsel1 (11 mo ago)

I will order a new gasket set for the carb and see what happens. I will keep you all updated.
Thanks for the quick replies!


----------



## Cstanis (Oct 19, 2021)

dhelsel1 said:


> I will order a new gasket set for the carb and see what happens. I will keep you all updated.
> Thanks for the quick replies!


You might want to consider putting on a new carb, they come with gaskets are are usually under 20 dollars on eBay or Amazon


----------



## dhelsel1 (11 mo ago)

Interesting, that is where I just came from looking. I will probably order one tonight so I will have it early next week. Thanks for the suggestion.


----------



## UNDERTAKER (Dec 30, 2013)

*The Gov Is Getting Ready To Bite The Dust.*


----------



## Cstanis (Oct 19, 2021)

UNDERTAKER said:


> *The Gov Is Getting Ready To Bite The Dust.*


How do you know that? How do you check the governor? Curious


----------



## UNDERTAKER (Dec 30, 2013)

*The Fly Weights On The Gov Are Sticking, That Is Why The Speed Is All Over The Charts. The Only Way To Check It Is At The Post Mortem.*


----------



## dhelsel1 (11 mo ago)

So now the question is, do have a engine governor going bad or an air leak in the intake system? The possible air leak will cost about $25, the governor is unknown. The unit must be at least 20 years old(not sure how to read the DOM), and not worth spending much money on. Any other ideas that any one has would be appreciated. I am not sure how the governor works, so not sure if temperature has ant impact on the function or not. But I do know that the high RPMs do not occur until at least 5 minutes of running under no load.


----------



## Cstanis (Oct 19, 2021)

I guess it comes down to you. If you feel the unit is worth 25 dollars and want to see if the carb replacement will fix it give it a shot if not then look for a replacement blower. I have experienced similar situations years ago on 2 cycle motorcycles and it turned out to be an air leak by where the carb bolted up to the manifold.

Try this. Start the unit up and let it run until it starts to rev try shutting it off with the switch if it continues to rev pump the primer bulb if it stops it is running extremely lean and preigniting which leads more towards an air leak. Hope others will pipe in


----------



## LouC (Dec 5, 2016)

What I noticed on mine was this, there was some side to side play in the throttle shaft. So, what I did was install a new Mikuni carb ($$$) because it was dead of a snowy winter, & needed blower to work. Next took carb apart and fixed it by replacing the throttle blade. So I have the replacement I installed (prob 10 years ago) and the original I repaired. Never had the problem again.


----------



## dhelsel1 (11 mo ago)

I'll give that a try. I would much rather fix it than replace it. It has been a great unit over the 10 years that I have had it.


----------



## Cstanis (Oct 19, 2021)

I think that is a good idea. For 25 dollars you could learn something and best of all it could fix the problem. 

Can you get a rebuild kit for the carb? I know OEM mikuni carbs can be expensive if that is what you have on that unit


----------



## dhelsel1 (11 mo ago)

I need some opinions on what I saw when I just took the covers off to confirm the carburetor information.

The first photo is from the bottom of the carburetor. I found no other markings on it. The second is the photo of the crankcase. It appears that it might have an issue. Let me know what you think. This would explain the oil/gas residue on the crank case. Depending on what you see, I may not have to replace or repair the carburetor.


----------



## LouC (Dec 5, 2016)

Well that does not look good! What engine do you have? I don't think its the Suzuki with the Mikuni carb because I saw made in USA on your carb bowl and the Mikuni for sure is made in Japan. Is it an R-tek? Or if older a Tecumseh?
Ah answered my own question, its a Tecumseh. Sorry I am not familiar with the 2 stroke Tecumsehs I've only had the Suzuki which outside of the carb, has been trouble free for 24 years.


----------



## dhelsel1 (11 mo ago)

It is the Tecumseh HSK850-8313B. I did attached a photo of the engine specifications earlier. It appears that the case is separating, which has got to be bad new for a lot of reasons. I can see where the gasket is still between the halves on the left side but there appears to be a gap on the right. I'll wait for a few more opinions, but my opinion is that I can issue last rights for the Toro.


----------



## Cstanis (Oct 19, 2021)

There is your air leak. It's doesn't look good my friend. Did a bolt or something come loose or fall out allowing the case to separate?


----------



## dhelsel1 (11 mo ago)

The fasteners that I could see were all in place. I did not try to tighten them as I figured the damage had been done. Not sure why the halves separated. I had no warning signs. I hate the think how the moving parts survived in this condition. I do not see an easy repair for this condition, unless someone has some ideas.


----------



## Cstanis (Oct 19, 2021)

If it was me I would pull the motor and try to figure out what happened. What caused that case to open like that I am not sure sorry.


----------



## dhelsel1 (11 mo ago)

If it were 50 degrees and I had a heated place to work, I would be all for it. But that is not the case. A tear down will have to wait for warmer weather. In the mean time I will be looking for a replacement at the very worst time of the year to do it. With more snow coming I need to have a working machine. If you live close enough I may be able to help you realize your wish!


----------



## Cstanis (Oct 19, 2021)

Are you sure those bolts that pull the two halves together are tight?


----------



## dhelsel1 (11 mo ago)

I have not checked them, as I figured the damage has been done. I can take a look tomorrow and try the ones closest to the rear cover plate. I do not know the history of this unit, other than least 10 years with me. No idea how long the cases have been coming apart. Then again, maybe it is an optical elution. All of the gas and oil spread on the outside of the cases tell me that this is open to the inside of the engine. What ever the cause I envision a scared bearings or at least deformed. Any idea on cause?


----------



## LouC (Dec 5, 2016)

I would not give up just yet. Single cyl engines vibrate a lot and 2 stroke single cyl engines most of all. Try to tighten all the bolts you can reach. We had something similar with a really old Briggs 3.5 hp 4 stroke. Head bolts vibrated loose. Making not normal noise. Thought it might have burned the head gasket but just torqued up all the head bolts & it was fine!


----------



## dhelsel1 (11 mo ago)

I'll give it a try today. It is 16 in the garage right now. I'll wait for a few more degrees of warmth. I should have left the covers off! I may have to remove the top cover to get to the rest of the bolts. Not sure.


----------



## Cstanis (Oct 19, 2021)

Like LouC said in his post and I said earlier try to tighten those bolts as much as possible. Put up a good effort before you throw in the towel. Do you have a basement? Drain the gas and take it down there it would be warmer.


----------



## Cstanis (Oct 19, 2021)

Do you have the manual for the 2500? I just downloaded it and it appears to be a Briggs motor on that unit. It shows the complete teardown and assembly.


----------



## dhelsel1 (11 mo ago)

The plate on the Toro has a Tecumseh HSK850-8313B listed. I had included a photo earlier of the CCR2500 and the engine. I can repost it needed.


----------



## Cstanis (Oct 19, 2021)

No, I looked at your photos just saying what it shows on the manual


----------



## dhelsel1 (11 mo ago)

I just pulled the manuals from Toro. It has my model (38420) listed as a 1997 with a Tecumseh engine. I will use these to take this unit apart.


----------



## dhelsel1 (11 mo ago)

I will take some more photos as I take off the plastic case. Thanks for suggesting to download the manuals. They will be useful. I am curious to what I will find.


----------



## Cstanis (Oct 19, 2021)

Hope all goes well


----------



## dhelsel1 (11 mo ago)

Does anyone have a PDF file for the repair of a Tecumseh HSK8450-8313B engine? I would like to have an idea of what the torque specs are for the various bolts as I work on this tired Toro CCR2500.

Thanks


----------



## Cstanis (Oct 19, 2021)

Try starting a new post asking that question you may get more responses.


----------



## Jadidaskv (11 mo ago)

I would jus snug them up if you can and see if anything changes then go from there. Either they wont sung up and your SOL or they do snug up and you may be able to save it. Then get the torque specs if needed. You should be able to tell if they're loose just by trying to snug them


----------



## dhelsel1 (11 mo ago)

Any idea how many bolts hold the halves together? Just wondering how many to look for.
Thanks


----------



## Cstanis (Oct 19, 2021)

Off the top of my head I don't know. I would look on the internet for a shop manual for your motor. It should give you a complete breakdown


----------



## LouC (Dec 5, 2016)

take a look on Toro's site, they may still have manuals for the older Tecumseh 2 stroke snow blower engines.


----------



## Grunt (Nov 11, 2013)

dhelsel1 said:


> Any idea how many bolts hold the halves together? Just wondering how many to look for.
> Thanks


Here is the service manual with torque specs-
TECUMSEH-SERVICE--REPAIR-MANUAL-2-CYCLE-TVS-TVXL-HXL-HSK-840-850-694988.pdf 

F:\Toro Single Stage Snowthrowers Manual\Toro Single Stage Snowthrower Service Manual.prn.pdf


----------



## dhelsel1 (11 mo ago)

Would you confirm the Tecumseh repair link. Here is where it sent me. Maybe I am missing something.

Thanks


----------



## groomerz (Feb 7, 2015)

I messaged you a link


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Cstanis (Oct 19, 2021)

Have you made any progress?


----------



## dhelsel1 (11 mo ago)

I decided to do some additional inspection of the engine, so I removed the rest of the covers. The photos that I have attached are taken from the front (carb is being called the back side) side of the engine. These show the separation of the crank case halves. I tried to turn the case fasteners on both the front and the back where the gap is widest. Could not force them to move, so they are not loose at this point. Not sure what is causing the separation, but it does not appear to be loose fasteners. Interesting that the separation is on just one side of the crank case. I am open to idea on what to do next.


----------



## groomerz (Feb 7, 2015)

Are you sure it’s open crack. It’s a 2 cycle there would be gas oil residue all over it and Spray soapy water on crack and blast compresse air down spark plug hole Look for bubbles to confirm


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Johner (Dec 30, 2020)

While running see if you can pull the governor back so it stops revving up that should give some kind of clue. Have you changed the oil over the years?


----------



## Husqvarna_10530SBE (Oct 9, 2015)

Maybe the bolts have snapped. Try removing the ones where the gap is.


----------



## Johner (Dec 30, 2020)

See if a shim will go into the engine. Looks mighty wide, but some of the heads are slightly raised during machining. If you had a gap that pronounced don't think it would start very easy and could feel or see some smoke blowing out.


----------



## groomerz (Feb 7, 2015)

If it is leaking air 
For troubleshooting purposes
Clean with brake cleaner
Apply some rtv silicone to gap to seal temporarily and see if engine responds


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Cstanis (Oct 19, 2021)

All excellent suggestions. The idea of using a shim or a feeler gauge would be fast and easy to see if it is indeed a crack.


----------



## dhelsel1 (11 mo ago)

Great suggestions. I have some "Snoop" for checking for gas leaks. I will try that while I pull it over with the plug in, but disconnected. If that does not show bubbles, I will try the other suggestion of using compressed air via the plug hole. I'll also try the feeler gauge test to see what I have. It has always ran well, but has recently started to run at excessive speed after about 5 minutes of running even with no load. My hopes are that it is an air leak that opens/gets worse once it is warmed up. Stay tuned. I really appreciate all of the help.


----------



## Johner (Dec 30, 2020)

I see. While running at idle and you push the gov one way or other it should jump back if the weights are working properly. One of the springs on the weights may have come off or like the other fella said they are almost gone. An oil change might show something. An oil change is like taking a blood sample it can tell a lot.


----------



## Cstanis (Oct 19, 2021)

Johner said:


> I see. While running at idle and you push the gov one way or other it should jump back if the weights are working properly. One of the springs on the weights may have come off or like the other fella said they are almost gone. An oil change might show something. An oil change is like taking a blood sample it can tell a lot.


It's a two cycle engine not a 4 cycle he is having the issue with.


----------



## dhelsel1 (11 mo ago)

Just to confirm what Cstanis, this is a Tecumseh 2 cycle, model HSK850-8313B. It has no idle, just runs a governed set speed.

Thanks for the suggestion


----------



## Grunt (Nov 11, 2013)

You would need to make block off plates for the intake and exhaust ports to use compressed air in the cylinder or the air will blow right out. The crankcase sees more vacuum than compression and the extra air sucked in past a bad case seal will make it run lean and then speed up the engine. Cleaning the case and using silicone may help track down the problem. The case gap could be caused by poor casting and the mating surfaces are then machined flat for a good seal regardless of the gap. If time and ambition allow, I would pull the engine apart and reseal the cases, if a more knowledgeable suggestion isn't recommended. Just my opinion.


----------



## Cstanis (Oct 19, 2021)

At this point I think Grunt offers the best suggestion. I asked the mechanic at my local lawn and garden center if he ever heard of a case splitting and he had not experienced one but said it could happen. At this point it is more of a challenge to find out what went wrong.


----------



## dhelsel1 (11 mo ago)

Feel like I am writing a book. Hopefully will not become a novel. I have pulled off the fan shroud to provide a better look at the area of separation. The gap is a little over 0.050 inches. I did apply "Snoop" to both the front and the back, then pulled the engine over with the plug installed. No bubbles. I then pulled the plug and applied about 100psi and still no bubbles. It did force the piston down to the bottom of the stroke. I now have better access to all four of the crank bolts. None were loose when trying in both directions (loosen/tighten). I'll try to remove one at the gap end to make sure it is not broken as suggest by Husky 105. I was able to take better photos of the gap from both sides, so I will include those.

I still not sure if the gap should be there, but I may turn my focus by to an air leak somewhere in the intake system and see what happens. Needless to say it is very easy to work on the carburetor now.

Thanks


----------



## Cstanis (Oct 19, 2021)

I wonder if a pc of gasket is missing in the area with the opening. Did a feeler gauge slide all the way in by the opening?


----------



## dhelsel1 (11 mo ago)

Yes, I could insert it beyond the thickness of the casting. I can try and measure how far from the outside surface I can insert the gauge. I'll be back with that info.


----------



## Grunt (Nov 11, 2013)

Looking at your original pictures showing oil on the crank case, you may have a leaking crank shaft seal. That would be more likely than the case leaking from that gap. Again, blowing air into the engine will not pressurize the engine without sealing the intake and exhaust ports. The correct way to diagnose the problem is with a tool called a mighty vac which can apply low pressure OR a vacuum to the engine.

The case gap could be caused by poor casting and the mating surfaces are then machined flat for a good seal regardless of the gap.


----------



## Cstanis (Oct 19, 2021)

Grunt said:


> Looking at your original pictures showing oil on the crank case, you may have a leaking crank shaft seal. That would be more likely than the case leaking from that gap. Again, blowing air into the engine will not pressurize the engine without sealing the intake and exhaust ports. The correct way to diagnose the problem is with a tool called a mighty vac which can apply low pressure OR a vacuum to the engine.
> 
> The case gap could be caused by poor casting and the mating surfaces are then machined flat for a good seal regardless of the gap.


In your opinion what would be causing the high uncontrolled revving. In my experience with 2 cycle motorcycles it usually turned out to be an air leak creating a extremely lean condition. The majority of the time it was by the carb intake manifold


----------



## dhelsel1 (11 mo ago)

I have inserted a thickness gauge and got 1/2 in the back side of the casing and about 1" on the front this is where I was stopped by a flange or something else. I did not make it into an open cavity. I did pressurizing the crank case by sealing off the exhaust and blowing about 100psi into the intake side. I rotated the crankshaft to see if that made any difference. Could not detect any leakage. Based on all of this, I will plan on cleaning the matting surfaces as best I can and then force silicon gasket sealer in the gap. Just have to see what happens. 

Thanks again for all the help


----------



## dhelsel1 (11 mo ago)

Based on the additional comments I will clean the carb as long as I have it off, and make sure that the 2 gaskets are in good condition when I reinstall it.


----------



## Cstanis (Oct 19, 2021)

Interested to hear how this works out


----------



## dhelsel1 (11 mo ago)

I have finished getting it back together. I did apply silicon gasket sealer to the gap between the halves. Cleaned the carb, and confirmed the carb gaskets were good. I also made sure that the governor was free. I will add some gas tomorrow and see what happens. I wanted to give the silicon sealer some time to set before I started it. I think I will stand back a bit, just in case. I am impressed with how this Toro is built. It has served well since 1997.
Thanks


----------



## Cstanis (Oct 19, 2021)

Best of luck 🤞


----------



## Grunt (Nov 11, 2013)

Cstanis said:


> In your opinion what would be causing the high uncontrolled revving. In my experience with 2 cycle motorcycles it usually turned out to be an air leak creating a extremely lean condition. The majority of the time it was by the carb intake manifold


I agree on the carb\intake manifold gasket being #1 for air leaks with a leaky crank shaft seal close behind.


----------



## LouC (Dec 5, 2016)

waiting to hear how it turned out. As I said mine was cured with a new carb.


----------



## Cstanis (Oct 19, 2021)

How are things going? Curious on this one.


----------



## dhelsel1 (11 mo ago)

I mixed up fresh gas, poured it in and started it up this afternoon. It started right away, a great sign. After about 7 minutes of no load running it started to increase the RPMs again. I shut it down and stated a few words. I am looking at what I can do short term to get through the remaining winter. I thought about limiting the throttle movement so it can not go wide open. That would hurt overall performance under load, but might get me through to April, or May. If it is an air leak, the only place left are the main seals. That is more than I can take in the winter. I remain open to any ideas.

Thanks


----------



## Cstanis (Oct 19, 2021)

What does it do when you are blowing snow does it still rev up? Did it stop this time with just the on off switch?


----------



## dhelsel1 (11 mo ago)

I did not try it in the snow, as I did not want to clean it up again if I had to take it apart. I did not let it run out off control so the switch still works before it goes crazy. We are expecting another winter storm, so the opportunity to test it out will be available. I need a snow bank close by to stop it, as when it is at the higher RPM I have no way to shut it down other than to load it with snow. When it drops down closer to the running RPM the switch works again. I am ready for spring!


----------



## Cstanis (Oct 19, 2021)

If it starts to runaway again start pushing the primer bulb to see if it kills


----------



## dhelsel1 (11 mo ago)

I will do that and let you know what happens


----------



## groomerz (Feb 7, 2015)

When it runs and starts running away what is gov linkage doing

Can you manually pull on linkage to bring rpm down

Those 2 cycles idle screws were set very low that they would slowly die if manually held against idle screw. Gov kept them running 

Is idle speed screwed in too much



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dhelsel1 (11 mo ago)

In the past I did not want to get that close to the screaming machine. I can try and reach the governor when it just begins to increase RPM and see what happens. I am not sure where the idle screw is located. I presume it is a set screw that limits the throttle closure. 

Thanks


----------



## Cstanis (Oct 19, 2021)

dhelsel1 said:


> In the past I did not want to get that close to the screaming machine. I can try and reach the governor when it just begins to increase RPM and see what happens. I am not sure where the idle screw is located. I presume it is a set screw that limits the throttle closure.
> 
> Thanks


The set screw should be very close to where the rod and spring hook into the carburetor. Use a long screwdriver, needle nose pliers or something similar to try and move the governor when it's running don't stick your hands there just to be safe. If you try that and it starts to run away pump the primer several times and see if it slows down before you shut it off.


----------



## dhelsel1 (11 mo ago)

Good advise, thanks


----------



## Cstanis (Oct 19, 2021)

Did you have a chance to check it today? Do you have a compression gauge?


----------



## dhelsel1 (11 mo ago)

Nothing done today as we have had an ice storm here. So no work was done. I do have a compression gauge. What would that tell me? I hope to get to it tomorrow, unless the winter storm they are talking about is worse than projected. This has been a strange winter. We are up to somewhere over 220 inches so far.


----------



## Cstanis (Oct 19, 2021)

Try everything suggested first. A compression gauge could tell if by chance the head gasket is leaking. 

It has been a strange winter here as well it was 66 degrees today. They are talking thunderstorms tonight. In the 30's tomorrow then up to 4 inches of snow on Monday. We have had only a little over 14 inches of snow so far this year.


----------



## Cstanis (Oct 19, 2021)

Any progress?


----------



## dhelsel1 (11 mo ago)

Yes, I just got back in the house after doing the tests. Started on fist pull. That is a big improvement. I removed the rear back plastic cover to give a visual of the carb, and to be able to reach the governor linkage. After about 5 minutes, the linkage begins to move a bit to hold the RPMs. After another few minutes the governor is at full stop trying to reduce the RPMs, but can not. I used the primer several times to slow the engine. It sputtered a bit, recovered and started to go back to the higher RPM. I did this several times, same result. Tells me that the governor is working, but is unable to control the engine even when at full slow position. Guess that leads to a defective carb or an air leak somewhere leaning out the mixture after it warms up.
Your thoughts?


----------



## Cstanis (Oct 19, 2021)

Did you try to manually move the governor when it starts to run away?


----------



## dhelsel1 (11 mo ago)

Yes, it is already in the full slow position. It will move toward full throttle without issue.


----------



## Cstanis (Oct 19, 2021)

I have been reading up on this motor and coming up blank. If you pull the governor back do the RPM's decrease? It doesn't make sense. Your project is becoming mine 😎


----------



## dhelsel1 (11 mo ago)

The governor was in the position of lowest RPM. As the engine begins to increase RPM the governor tries to reduce it, until there is no more travel left. It must be up against a mechanical stop somewhere. Note, that when the engine is running normal you can move the governor and cause the engine to seed up or slow down, It has movement in both directions. However, as the engine speeds up the governor finally runs our of movement to slow it down. At this point the engine keeps increasing RPM.


----------



## Cstanis (Oct 19, 2021)

You have any local lawn and garden centers that do small engine repair maybe give them a call. You see any movement by the crankshaft seal?


----------



## dhelsel1 (11 mo ago)

I tried to move the flywheel after I removed all the covers. Was not to notice movement in any direction including in and out. Not sure that I could really feel the amount that would cause some leakage. There is always somebody willing to take my money for a repair job. Not sure I am ready for this decision yet.


----------



## Cstanis (Oct 19, 2021)

Did you try spraying the top of the carb with some type of cleaner and make sure nothing is sticking. When you cleaned the carb did you do it on the machine or was it removed?


----------



## Cstanis (Oct 19, 2021)

dhelsel1 said:


> I tried to move the flywheel after I removed all the covers. Was not to notice movement in any direction including in and out. Not sure that I could really feel the amount that would cause some leakage. There is always somebody willing to take my money for a repair job. Not sure I am ready for this decision yet.


Just try and pick their brain. A 25 dollar investment for a carb maybe worth it.


----------



## dhelsel1 (11 mo ago)

I removed the carb disassembled, cleaned and installed. I can certainly order a new carb. Like you said, the $25 would be worth it if it fixed the problem. If nothing else it would point the cause toward an issue in the crank case.


----------



## Cstanis (Oct 19, 2021)

Just don't stick too much money into it set a limit and stick to it. Voice of experience.


----------



## Grunt (Nov 11, 2013)

Cstanis said:


> Just don't stick too much money into it set a limit and stick to it. Voice of experience.


Investing more money into a piece of equipment than it's worth because " you just had to find out why it didn't work". Been there, done that.


----------



## Cstanis (Oct 19, 2021)

Grunt said:


> Investing more money into a piece of equipment than it's worth because " you just had to find out why it didn't work". Been there, done that.


So what are you saying?


----------



## Grunt (Nov 11, 2013)

Cstanis said:


> Just don't stick too much money into it set a limit and stick to it. Voice of experience.


I'm agreeing with your statement. You can easily invest more money into something not worth the return.


----------



## groomerz (Feb 7, 2015)

Did you try backing out idle stop screw on carb near throttle shaft

Also is it a metal carb or plastic


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Cstanis (Oct 19, 2021)

groomerz said:


> Did you try backing out idle stop screw on carb near throttle shaft
> 
> Also is it a metal carb or plastic
> 
> ...


The carb is metal. He posted a picture of it earlier in the post


----------



## dhelsel1 (11 mo ago)

I do not recall seeing any adjustment on the carb. I will look again in the day light and get back to you.


----------



## groomerz (Feb 7, 2015)

Cstanis said:


> The carb is metal. He posted a picture of it earlier in the post


Thx


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dhelsel1 (11 mo ago)

Here are photos of the carb. I could not find any adjustments. Sorry about the rotation of the photos.


----------



## dhelsel1 (11 mo ago)

I have looked at the carb selection on Amazon and can not find an exact match for the Tecumseh engine. Maybe some one to help me out. I have a Tecumseh HSK850-8313B engine. The Tecumseh carb part # is 632751, the part # stamped on the carb is 1622E61. Maybe someone will have better luck than I have.

Thanks


----------



## Cstanis (Oct 19, 2021)

Look in eBay for a 632751 carburetor found some there


----------



## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

Somehow, I doubt it could be the carb.Unless the throttle plate is loose and displaces more when hot (very unlikely). Seems more like a case air leak that opens as the block warms and expands. Yeah, a replacement carb is cheap, but don't set your expectations too high.

Absolute test would be a hand/rag/whatever over the intake to the carb (or just turn the choke on). If it still revs, air is getting in somewhere else . . . and since fuel delivery is _downstream_ of both the throttle and choke plates, the carb is doing what it is supposed to do . . . the air is entering elsewhere.


----------



## Cstanis (Oct 19, 2021)

tadawson said:


> Somehow, I doubt it could be the carb.Unless the throttle plate is loose and displaces more when hot (very unlikely). Seems more like a case air leak that opens as the block warms and expands. Yeah, a replacement carb is cheap, but don't set your expectations too high.
> 
> Absolute test would be a hand/rag/whatever over the intake to the carb (or just turn the choke on). If it still revs, air is getting in somewhere else . . . and since fuel delivery is _downstream_ of both the throttle and choke plates, the carb is doing what it is supposed to do . . . the air is entering elsewhere.


Early on in this post pictures were posted on what appeared to be an opening in the case. If you have time please take a look.


----------



## dhelsel1 (11 mo ago)

I have use the primer several times when it begins to increase RPM. It sputters a bit, and as it cleans up goes back to increasing the RPM. I also used the choke which tends to slow it down as well. Not sure this helps or not.

Thanks


----------



## dhelsel1 (11 mo ago)

I just took a look at eBay and noticed that they are not an exact replacement. The choke levers will not work in the CCR2500. Hard to tell what else may be different. No ones makes this replacement process easy. One would hope with all of the specifications that we have you could just find a replacement.


----------



## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

Cstanis said:


> Early on in this post pictures were posted on what appeared to be an opening in the case. If you have time please take a look.


I've seen it, and that's one of the reasons that I don't think a carb change will make a difference. Blocking the carb inlet to see if it still runs will be definitive, and if that confirms an air leak at the case (or whatever), then the task becomes one to seal the leak . . . (seems the case is OK otherwise, so separate/clean/use RTV to make the seal?)


----------



## dhelsel1 (11 mo ago)

I will get it started and cover the intake and see what happens. I will then let it run until the RPM increases and try the same think. That should help tell us what is going on.
Stay tuned


----------



## Cstanis (Oct 19, 2021)

Did you have a chance to give it a try?


----------



## dhelsel1 (11 mo ago)

Will be doing this later this morning. Was not home yesterday


----------



## dhelsel1 (11 mo ago)

Here is what I found. When the engine first settles down the governor can still slow down the engine. Blocking the intake would stop the engine. After about 5 minutes of run time the governor had very little space left to reduce engine RPM, I could still stop it by blocking the intake. After about 7-8 minutes the engine began to speed up, the governor was up against the stop and could not slow down the engine. The engine did stop when the intake was blocked. Any thing else I should try?

Thanks


----------



## Cstanis (Oct 19, 2021)

It sounds like you tried everything suggested. I was hoping tadawson would reply


----------



## dhelsel1 (11 mo ago)

I as well. I need to know my next set of instructions. Not sure what his thoughts are at this point.


----------



## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

There is clearly an air leak. Ensure that the throttle plate is closed fully both hot and cold (if you have nlt already done so). With no load, it takes a surprisingly smal opening to overrev. _Something_ is clearly changing due to heat/expansion . . . Fuel can only come from one place - the carb - but in a 2 cycle, air can come from a lot of places - carb, case flaws, shaft seals, etc. The fact that you can kill it by covering the intake tells me that the case may well not be leaking, but that something very odd is going on in the carb in that it does not die when it is closed fully. Or possibly a combination of these things . . .

I don't recall - did you back out the idle stop screw to allow the carb to potentially close more?

I wish I could get hands on on this . . . .

Any chance you have a photo of the throttle plate side of the carb from when you had it off?


----------



## groomerz (Feb 7, 2015)

Is it possible throttle shaft worn. I worn throttle shaft will have play in it let in air

Also looking at photo I see a fitting without a hose overflow?











Is there a gasket on each side of the black plastic insulator between carb and manifold?

I would also like to get my hands on it

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk on


----------



## Cstanis (Oct 19, 2021)

Do you guys think at this point trying a different carb would be worth a try? My two cycle experience was on motorcycles. When a bike revved out of control first check the throttle cable then for air leaks at the manifold and then the carb itself. My understanding was that an extremely lean condition caused the revving and preigniting, same thing would happen you couldn't turn the bike off with the key had to put it in gear and pop the clutch.


----------



## Grunt (Nov 11, 2013)

Cstanis said:


> Do you guys think at this point trying a different carb would be worth a try? My two cycle experience was on motorcycles. When a bike revved out of control first check the throttle cable then for air leaks at the manifold and then the carb itself. My understanding was that an extremely lean condition caused the revving and preigniting, same thing would happen you couldn't turn the bike off with the key had to put it in gear and pop the clutch.


I agree, unless the leak is at the throttle shaft or gaskets , the leak is probably a crank shaft seal or unlikely, the engine block. Just my opinion. Here is our favorite small engine mechanic doing the necessary test to find a leak.
(18) HOW-TO Pressure & Vacuum Test On A Chainsaw - Leak Down Test - YouTube


----------



## dhelsel1 (11 mo ago)

The last time that I had the carb off to get better photos of the suspect case leak, I did check both gaskets and they appeared to be fine. Just to be sure I applied a very thin layer of silicon sealer on all surfaces. I also applied the same sealer to the crank case halves. I should add that I did do a visual inspection on the crank case seal to see if there was any changes after running the engine. All sealed surfaces looked fine. I did not take any photos of the throttle plate while I had the carb removed. I am not aware of any adjustments on the carb, including idle. You start it up and runs at the governed RPM. I can check the throttle plate shaft for any movement.
I still have not found a carb replacement for this unit. Some say they are, but the photo shown does not match what I have when I look at the linkage attachment points. If there is a secret to this, please share.
Thanks


----------



## Cstanis (Oct 19, 2021)

You should be able to find a carb for that machine. I will check around


----------



## Cstanis (Oct 19, 2021)




----------



## dhelsel1 (11 mo ago)

Thanks for sending. Not sure that the choke will work with this unit. I have a rod that extends through the back plastic cover and drops into a hole in the choke lever on the carb. Looks like this one would require that I have access to the lever on the carb (which does not have a hole in it). I have looked for about 30 minutes today and I can get close, but can not an exact Match. Here is the closest that I have found, without spending $90+ for a Toto OEM unit. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B...51900_E_CReturnsRefundConfirmation_Asin_Title


----------



## Cstanis (Oct 19, 2021)

dhelsel1 said:


> Thanks for sending. Not sure that the choke will work with this unit. I have a rod that extends through the back plastic cover and drops into a hole in the choke lever on the carb. Looks like this one would require that I have access to the lever on the carb (which does not have a hole in it). I have looked for about 30 minutes today and I can get close, but can not an exact Match. Here is the closest that I have found, without spending $90+ for a Toto OEM unit. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B...51900_E_CReturnsRefundConfirmation_Asin_Title


Looks very similar to the picture of the carb I sent you. I put an aftermarket carb on a toro 3650 that did not look exactly like the OEM and it worked fine. I guess it is your call. Like I said in a previous post don't overspend on an older unit


----------



## groomerz (Feb 7, 2015)

FYI I once put China carb on a tecumseh and choke was different. I undid screw on choke plate slid choke shaft out and installed old choke shaft and lever on new carb. Presto. Or just run it without rear cover


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Cstanis (Oct 19, 2021)

Have you found a matching carb yet other than OEM?


----------



## dhelsel1 (11 mo ago)

No, I am still looking. Unable to locate a replacement for Carb # 632751. I may have to try a match to the Engine #HSK850-8313B and hope that at least the mounting holes and hose connections fit.


----------



## dhelsel1 (11 mo ago)

Here is what I will order. It seems close for the linkage connections and it is for a HSK850 engine. It is also the cheapest I could fine. 
*ALLMOST 640300 Carburetor Compatible with Tecumseh HSK850 HSK870 TH139SA TH139SP Replaces 632738 640096

Hope is works!*


----------



## Cstanis (Oct 19, 2021)

I hope it works out for you. Let us know how it goes.


----------



## Cstanis (Oct 19, 2021)

Did you get a carb yet?


----------



## dhelsel1 (11 mo ago)

Just received it late this afternoon. It is my project for tomorrow. I sure hope that this solves my issue.


----------



## Cstanis (Oct 19, 2021)

I hope it does too. I think is is worth a try


----------



## dhelsel1 (11 mo ago)

Received yesterday. Going on today!


----------



## dhelsel1 (11 mo ago)

I will declare the new carb a success, with some reservation. The only issue that I had with the install was the location of the choke lever. I used the suggestion by Groomerz (thank you) and switched the choke assembly from the OEM. I hade to reduce the shaft a bit to allow it to fit, but it is working. Engine started right up and I let it run for over 10 minutes without any issues. I did note that the governor had lost some movement, but still had some room left and was not against the stop. The test will not be to place a load on it to see what happens. The good news is that our snow is dissappearing with this warm weather. I am sure thare is more to come, so I will test again then. I'll make sure to provide a final update after the next snow. The cab I ended up with is:
*ALLMOST 640300 Carburetor*
Thank you for your support, comments, and suggestions


----------



## Cstanis (Oct 19, 2021)

Great News!!!! Time and patience paid off


----------



## Cstanis (Oct 19, 2021)

Just thinking, don't you have some snow piles you could push it into and see what happens. You could also manually move the governor to see if it revs up.


----------



## LouC (Dec 5, 2016)

Interesting and glad you stuck with it. So if this works then we see it was truly an air leak in the carb which was also my problem.


----------

