# Engine clones.



## barney (Nov 21, 2017)

I'm seeing many a mention Honda engine clones and the term "GX". Are all the Chinese engines we are seeing on the main brands these days Honda engine clones? And in particular GX clones? 

*pardon my engine ignorance.


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## UNDERTAKER (Dec 30, 2013)

barney said:


> I'm seeing many a mention Honda engine clones and the term "GX". Are all the Chinese engines we are seeing on the main brands these days Honda engine clones? And in particular GX clones?
> 
> *pardon my engine ignorance.


* I guess the word to live and die by is if does not say Honda on it. then it is 1 that has been copied from Honda.*


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## tpenfield (Feb 24, 2015)

Clones might not be totally accurate . . . Part interchangeability between a Honda and a 'no-name' brand would be an indication if the engine were 'cloned' (i.e. copied) from the Honda series of engines.

Most of these engines are pretty similar in their design . . . so who's to say what is a clone and what is an original :smiley-confused013:


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## Oneacer (Jan 3, 2011)

Like Power said, if it has Honda on it, good chance it is (lol, not 1000% guaranteed) . If it does not, then it is some other brand. People call anything other than the original a clone when it resembles the characters of the original. I would assume some of their parts are pretty much interchangeable, possibly even coming from the same source?


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## sscotsman (Dec 8, 2010)

oneacer said:


> I would assume some of their parts are pretty much interchangeable, possibly even coming from the same source?


They might be intechangeable, but they are not from the same source. The Chinese criminals (opps, I mean "manufacturers") who make the cloned engines and parts start with a real Honda engine, take it apart, then copy/clone literally every part..then create and sell whole engines that are copies of the Honda engine. (Although severly lacking in the original Honda quality control.) The cloned parts are made by the criminals (opps, I mean "manufacturers"), while the genine Honda parts are made by Honda

There are Chinese criminals (opps, I mean "companys") cloning entire cars! Of couse it's illegal in civilized countrys, but the Chinese governent looks the other way, because its good for the Chinese economy.

This story is over a decade old, but its still going on, worse than ever:

https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1029301_attack-of-the-clones-chinese-copies-of-the-honda-cr-v

Scot


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

tpenfield said:


> Clones might not be totally accurate . . . Part interchangeability between a Honda and a 'no-name' brand would be an indication if the engine were 'cloned' (i.e. copied) from the Honda series of engines.
> 
> Most of these engines are pretty similar in their design . . . so who's to say what is a clone and what is an original :smiley-confused013:


Many parts are interchangeable, even the internals like connecting rods. It's a complete knock off.

Let me tell ya something, I have a friend that makes high precision high performance parts for high performance engines. He has five axis CNCs, CNC Lathes, Multiple Bridgeports, etc... He's a real operation, not some slack off 1/2 assed backyard hobby.

He says he can send drawings to China, get back a prototype inside a week, with quality as good as he can do in his shop. Point is, just because it's a "knock off" or "made in China" does NOT necessarily mean it's junk. From what I've learned about these engines, if the parts are interchangeable, the quality can be, and probably is, very similar to the original engine that was copied, and could be better. 

Too bad these "knock offs" don't come from the factory as snow versions.


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## Oneacer (Jan 3, 2011)

Was not aware that Honda produced in house all there parts down to there nuts and screws. Most Corporations outsource many parts.

BTW, the Predator I put on one of my Ariens far outperforms the new Briggs on the other one.Going strong for years now.


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## russ01915 (Dec 18, 2013)

Honda Serial Offenders


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

sscotsman said:


> They might be intechangeable, but they are not from the same source. The Chinese criminals (opps, I mean "manufacturers") who make the cloned engines and parts start with a real Honda engine, take it apart, then copy/clone literally every part..then create and sell whole engines that are copies of the Honda engine. (Although severly lacking in the original Honda quality control.) The cloned parts are made by the criminals (opps, I mean "manufacturers"), while the genine Honda parts are made by Honda
> 
> There are Chinese criminals (opps, I mean "companys") cloning entire cars! Of couse it's illegal in civilized countrys, but the Chinese governent looks the other way, because its good for the Chinese economy.
> 
> ...


Unless it's patented, it's open to be copied. I agree on you with the ethics of doing it, but "criminal"? In which case Harbor Freight is "criminal" for selling them. 

As far as QC goes, you'd be surprised of the quality you can get out of China. Just because it's Made In China does not automatically means it's junk anymore. Iphones are Made In China, the computer you type on, your TV, etc... 

The QC in China can be very good. What is eliminated is the Honda Tax. (like a boat tax or Corvette tax) We see what can be made for how much money without that tax.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

russ01915 said:


> Honda Serial Offenders



From the link:

*If the engine does not match a specific product's requirements, it may not perform to optimum level, and MAY EVEN BE DANGEROUS!!!*

Oh the drama. If you don't pay a Honda tax, you and your family may be killed by this engine! C'mon. 

They are saying it's so close the only way to tell is the serial number, but not so close it will kill you! 

For the record, I am not supporting badging these things as Hondas to collect the Honda tax, that's just wrong. But "KILL YOU" :signlol::signlol:


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## Cardo111 (Feb 16, 2015)

Some interesting points here. Honda 2-Stage snowblower engines are now manufactured in Thailand (from what I understand, correct me if i'm wrong). Granted all of these clone engines are said to be designed/engineered in the U.S. it's all about keeping costs down, maximizing profit margins and remaining competitive in today's economy. Unfortunately at the expense of American jobs.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

Cardo111 said:


> Some interesting points here. Honda 2-Stage snowblower engines are now manufactured in Thailand (from what I understand, correct me if i'm wrong). Granted all of these clone engines are said to be designed/engineered in the U.S. it's all about keeping costs down, maximizing profit margins and remaining competitive in today's economy. Unfortunately at the expense of American jobs.


For all we know, they can be assembled by the same people, on the same line as the Hondas. You'd be surprised how often than not that's the case.

Consumers are to blame. People say they will pay the price for American made goods, but unless you have something totally unique, it doesn't work that way. 

I make my stuff in China, I have no choice, there's no factory in the USA that makes what I sell. And if they did, it would put me out of business. 

However, I ship a lot of stuff, I warehouse the stuff, I pay salesmen, I attend trade shows, retailers sell my stuff at a profit, there's a lot of jobs there.


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## Cardo111 (Feb 16, 2015)

jsup said:


> For all we know, they can be assembled by the same people, on the same line as the Hondas. You'd be surprised how often than not that's the case.
> 
> Consumers are to blame. People say they will pay the price for American made goods, but unless you have something totally unique, it doesn't work that way.
> 
> ...



Agreed. I realize our newer machines would probably cost about 25% more if the engines were made here. That's what I meant by to remain competitive (or even stay in business). We have become accustom as consumers to competitive pricing and getting a "deal." The fact is of course we would buy from the cheaper company all things being equal. The industry has set the price at this point unless they all change back to U.S. designed and manufactured engines no company will. There won't be a large enough market for those consumers willing to pay 25% more (as an example) to buy 100% U.S. made. My point was the well paying factory jobs with real benefits and a secure retirement with a pension are a dying breed. I know we are getting off-topic here.


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## stromr (Jul 20, 2016)

jsup said:


> For all we know, they can be assembled by the same people, on the same line as the Hondas. You'd be surprised how often than not that's the case.
> 
> Consumers are to blame. People say they will pay the price for American made goods, but unless you have something totally unique, it doesn't work that way.
> 
> ...


What do you make? Is it anything we can use on snowblowers? Do you have a website? I know what you mean by "...there's no factory in the USA that makes what I sell. And if they did, it would put me out of business." We have become a service economy in the US. Both big and small businesses, look at all the guys on this forum that fix, refurbish and sell snowblowers. They are providing a service rather than a product. Good luck in your business, the backbone of the American economy is still small business.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

stromr said:


> What do you make? Is it anything we can use on snowblowers? Do you have a website? I know what you mean by "...there's no factory in the USA that makes what I sell. And if they did, it would put me out of business." We have become a service economy in the US. Both big and small businesses, look at all the guys on this forum that fix, refurbish and sell snowblowers. They are providing a service rather than a product. Good luck in your business, the backbone of the American economy is still small business.


I've learned a hard lesson recently. I spoke to much about my personal life, nothing "deep", just things like my sister got a traffic ticket and my father was an engineer. Things like that. 

Well, apparently my disagreement on topics in a political section was license to research my entire family, post their personal information, like my dad's real estate holdings, his pension payments, details about my SBA loan, information on my business partners, and about my wife's employment. My pet bird wasn't even safe. They posted competitors to my products and my patents drumming up reasons why they were invalid, not that they can do anything about it. 

They even went as far as sending repeated emails to every official the town, trying to get my wife in trouble and my business shut down. Of course, the town officials laughed at it. 

I say "they" because it was more than one. The odd part was, after they did all this, I complained to the forum, asked that my family and business information be purged from the forum, I was the one that got banned, from that one section, not from the forum. Needless to say, I don't go there anymore because of forum management. 

So, at least for the immediate future, I'm going to respectfully decline an opportunity to brag about my business. But I will say, it's as far away from blowing snow as you can get. 

Thanks for the great thoughts.


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## barney (Nov 21, 2017)

So, I'm getting the impression that these Chinese engines [as used on the main brand snowblowers] aren't super exact, down to the same cc size, replicas at all. They aren't "knock offs" with just a name change.
But merely OHV design engines made by China.

I don't know when or by whom OHV design was invented.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

barney said:


> So, I'm getting the impression that these Chinese engines aren't super exact, down to the same cc size, replicas at all. But merely OHV design engines made by China.


Close enough the internals are swappable. 



> I don't know when or by whom OHV design was invented.


I'm fairly certain it was Caddilac somewhere around 1954.


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## barney (Nov 21, 2017)

So I have a Loncin 252cc. What parts are there that are 'swap-able'? Is this something you have seen with your own eyes or something someone told you?


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## classiccat (Mar 1, 2014)

jsup said:


> I'm fairly certain it was Caddilac somewhere around 1954.


I'm not sure when OHV was patented however Lauson (l_ater acquired by tecumseh_) had overhead valve long before then. Here's one from the 1920's... the external rockers are pretty neat.






cast iron tecumseh OHV was available on garden tractors, generators, welders in the 60's/70's.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

classiccat said:


> I'm not sure when OHV was patented however Lauson (l_ater acquired by tecumseh_) had overhead valve long before then. Here's one from the 1920's... the external rockers are pretty neat.
> 
> Lauson VA819
> 
> ...


I did a quick internet search, it's saying Cadillac but 1917. I was 1/2 right.  The older I get, the less I remember.


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## orangputeh (Nov 24, 2016)

hopefully in a few years technology with 3D printers will advance so much and be so cost effective that we will not have to rely on other people so much .

we have a local makerspace shop in our town that has 3d printers that can do amazing things. i would love it if you could just take a picture of a part you need , upload it to a 3D printer and have it made for you as you wait.


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## AriensPro1128 (Nov 9, 2014)

per wikipedia ..... The overhead valve internal combustion engine was known by at least 1896 when U.S. patent 563,140, awarded to William F. Davis, illustrated an internal combustion engine with valves in the head.[2][3] The concept of push rods and rocker arms was being widely used in steam engines before then. Henry Ford's Quadricycle of 1896 had OHV for exhaust valves only.[4] In 1898,


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