# TORO CCR 3650 Spark Issue? Can’t pull start.



## MajorYikes (Dec 28, 2020)

By no means am I a small engine guy, so bare with me. Christmas Eve my Toro CCR 3650 worked fine. Went to fire it up Christmas Day, ran for a couple seconds and die, won’t restart.

I rebuilt the carb last year and only use ethanol free in it. The pull start can’t really be pulled without a ton of force and electric start won’t work (I don’t think it ever did).

I pulled the spark plug and got some liquid to pour out. The piston moves inside the cylinder freely with the plug out. When I put the plug back in the pull start has a ton of tension and I can’t really pull it.

Can someone please help?


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## MajorYikes (Dec 28, 2020)

Bump...anyone??


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## LouC (Dec 5, 2016)

I wonder if the float is sticking open and flooding the cyl with fuel, actually hydrolocking it with gas. I’d take the carb off turn it upside down and see if you can blow thru the carb fuel inlet pipe, if so the float is not sealing. To check for spark fab up a grounding wire; get 2 large alligator clips attach each to a wire and with the spark plug out of the engine and hooked up to the plug wire connect one clip to the metal body of the plug the other clip to the engine to ground it then pull the recoil starter. If the magneto coil is good you should see a spark jump the gap.


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## paulm12 (May 22, 2015)

yep, if liquid poured out, then you have gas in the cylinder, and the engine is hydro-locking. That would be caused from a bad carburetor needle/seat or bad carburetor float. Have you confirmed if it is gas getting into the cylinder? 

tx


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## Grunt (Nov 11, 2013)

Do you have electric start? I would remove the spark plug and and crank the engine over in short cycles so you don't over heat the starter to remove excess gas in the crank case. Make sure the ignition is off so you don't accidentally start an engine fire. If no electric start, you'll have to pull the recoil numerous times.


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## MajorYikes (Dec 28, 2020)




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## MajorYikes (Dec 28, 2020)

Here is a picture of the cylinder, not really sure if gas is getting in to it (also not too sure how I would know). When I pulled the plug and pulled the start, the liquid that came out was black/gray if that helps.

What exactly would be the explanation of the pull start pulling smoothly with the plug out, but friction with the plug in? Hydro locking? Should I rebuild the carb again (or replace it) and put a new spark plug in and see if that helps?

EDIT: also thanks for any help and dealing with my ignorance. I’m realizing I find small engines fascinating so maybe I’ll stick around.

Second edit: I DO have spark.


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## LouC (Dec 5, 2016)

Does that liquid smell like gas? The smell should be obvious. Like I said invert the carb and see if you can blow through the fuel inlet. If so something is keeping the float from closing. There is no other way for liquid to get into the cyl of a 2 stroke air cooled engine unless it was flooded with water.


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## LouC (Dec 5, 2016)

PS years ago a relative of mine hydrolocked a 4 stroke riding lawnmower. What happened was that he turned in on its side to change the blade. Then flips it back over and can’t pull start it. He thinks the engine is seized. Then calls me and I come over and ask him what he did before this happened, then he tells me he flipped it to change the blade. So now I’m thinking oil hydrolocked and pull the spark plug. He pulls the recoil starter and oil shoots out of the spark plug hole. We put the spark plug back in and it eventually starts with a flame out the exhaust!
A 4 stroke can get hydrolocked with fuel (bad carb float) or oil if it’s flipped the wrong way. A 2 stroke only fuel can cause a hydrolocked condition unless flooded with water.

The same thing can happen to small 4 stroke outboards if you lay them down on the wrong side; the oil seeps past the piston rings and can hydrolock it. They are marked “this side up” for that reason.


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## MajorYikes (Dec 28, 2020)

Okay so I replaced the carb with the metal one and a new NGK plug for good measure. No more hydro lock issue but now it won’t start...anyone??


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## LouC (Dec 5, 2016)

Ignition magneto or bad wiring


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## groomerz (Feb 7, 2015)

Double check you put spark plug wire back on all the way

Have checked for spark?

Is spark plug still wet? A wet plug will not spark

2 cycle engines that have wet plugs have been flooded are hard to clear as excess fuel is down in crank case causing plug to get wet 

Like was said before 
remove plug 
ign off 
Choke off

and pull a bunch to clear out fuel


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MajorYikes (Dec 28, 2020)

Yes, replaced the plug as stated above. And yes I do have spark.
Maybe it’s time to give up on this thing, I just don’t wanna have to buy a new one. This one worked perfectly when it was previously working.


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## JLawrence08648 (Jan 15, 2017)

Frustrating. You need someone else with a different prospective. Ask for on site help, a visit, from another SBFer. Post where you are from.


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## MajorYikes (Dec 28, 2020)

I’m in Buffalo. I’d definitely prefer someone who really knows what they’re doing from here to come help me as opposed to some random person you know?


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## LenD (Nov 17, 2020)

MajorYikes said:


> I’m in Buffalo. I’d definitely prefer someone who really knows what they’re doing from here to come help me as opposed to some random person you know?


Add Buffalo to your profile so folks don't have to keep asking


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## JLawrence08648 (Jan 15, 2017)

You are new here. There's a lot of smart caring people on here, real hands on problem solving mechanics. The attitude of them is a family unlike other forums. If someone is in your area and has the time, both, you'll be contacted though now may not be the time.


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## MajorYikes (Dec 28, 2020)

Done. Thanks everyone. Sorry for the slight incompetence! I guess I’ll keep do some digging. And shoveling 🤬😂


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## MajorYikes (Dec 28, 2020)

SOLVED: Pardon the frequent updates. However, I just put some fuel right in to the carb and it fired right up but dies when it uses it up.
What would cause something like this? Can confirm it has fuel and a new fuel filter as well.

EDIT: I GOT IT RUNNING! Replaced the line from carb to primer bulb with new line and it fired up first try.
The issue I’m having now is the idle going up and down pretty consistently. What causes this? Could it be bad gas? Or is it likely something more serious?


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## JLawrence08648 (Jan 15, 2017)

It's called surging, some call it hunting. The carb is dirty, probably in the low jet area. New carb, or clean carb, remove Welch plug if there is one, use a welding tip cleaner to clean all holes, or put Seafoam in the gas, run 2-3 minutes every day for 3 weeks.


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## Jatoxico (Jan 6, 2018)

My Toro surges a bit. Check the carb/gasket is tight w/o air leaks. The real proof will be how it operates under load.


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## MajorYikes (Dec 28, 2020)

Really? Even with a new carb it can do that? I’ll definitely pull it apart and clean it I know what you’re talking about.

Is it okay to use it while it’s surging?


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## Jatoxico (Jan 6, 2018)

MajorYikes said:


> Really? Even with a new carb it can do that? I’ll definitely pull it apart and clean it I know what you’re talking about.
> 
> Is it okay to use it while it’s surging?


Surge doesn't have to be an air leak but, the concern is that a bad air leak on a 2 stroke will cause an over-lean condition. Over-lean in a 2 stroke means heat (just like a four stroke) but also not enough lubrication possibly leading to failure. Listen to the engine and decide. If the engine surging some but is not over revving too bad go ahead use it. It may clean up if you choke it just a little which also gives a margin of safety.

Mine surges during idle but not under load. I will be changing to a metal carb, possibly this weekend.


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## JLawrence08648 (Jan 15, 2017)

As others said, it's a lean condition, and Yes a new carb may do that especially the cheaper carburetors. A welding tip cleaner reaming out the holes may help especially if the Welch plug is removed. A micro drill set will also. And No it won't hurt anything other than over the extreme long term carbon buildup. I suggest using synthetic TC-W3 2 cycle oil possibly with a shot of Marvel Mystery Oil.


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## Hec In Omaha (Jan 10, 2021)

Try pulling out the choke a little when it starts surging. If it smooth's out then you have a lean condition. I have a CCR 3650 with the black plastic carb and it requires choke for about the first 3-4 mins then it will run fine without it. If applying choke doesn't smooth out the engine, then you may have another issue.

Things that can cause a lean condition:

Vented Fuel Cap not venting. Remove Fuel Cap when the engine starts surging after its been warmed up. If it runs better then your fuel cap isn't venting. If the cap can't equalize to atmosphere the tank will not be able to gravity feed fuel to the carb.
Check fuel line and fuel filter for restrictions. Old Fuel line can swell causing the Inside Diameter to be reduced and therefore restrict the amount of fuel being delivered to the carb. Check for cracks in the fuel line too. A cracked fuel line can suck air causing a lean condition. If fuel filter is clogged the same thing will happen.
Make sure carb is thoroughly cleaned and that float level is set so that it hangs level when viewed with the carb held upside down. If the float is not level you may have too much or not enough fuel in the carb bowl.
Make sure carb gasket is sealing properly between carb and engine.
Make sure the carb throttle and choke butterfly discs are still there. I noticed my choke butterfly was very loose on my black plastic carb. They are just held in place via a friction fit without screws. I used super glue to lock it in place on mine. 
Check the crankshaft seals to make sure air isn't being sucked into the crankcase through them. Spray carb cleaner right on the crankshaft seal with the engine running. If it smooth's out then you have a leak at that seal.
Sometimes engine surge could be ignition induced. Start the engine in total darkness and look closely at the entire spark plug wire. Look for blue sparks jumping off the spark plug wire to metal on the engine. If you see sparks anywhere you will need to address the plug wire or replace the coil.

I hope this helps ya!

Hec


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