# Craftsman 10/28 Trac Blower, won't idle and eventually runs away, scary



## budwich

I got an old craftsman 10hp tecumseh snow blower. Owned it since "new" (sears "return")... 1987. It has never really run well going from constant surging when initially got to failing to idle well to not at all, to running away usually after taking off load (ie. at the end of a snow blow run)... scary.

I have tried various things during that period from cleaning the carb, ensuring floating is free movement, adjusting govenor arm, etc.

This year, in the fall, I started it up to make sure things were ok. It ran fairly well sitting in the garage and taking it for a "spin" around the driveway. Of course, temp was "nice" and no snow, so no load other than the track and free wheeling augers.

After trying to do the driveway with the first snow just after xmas (great that we made it that long!!!), it was in severe run out after each run down the lane... scary. 

I tried everything to get rid of that issue, if I move the governor arm adjustment to reduce / prevent the "run away", then the thing basically stalls even with the trac movement. The small screw on the throttle control that is supposed control "top speed" appears to have little effect compared to the governor adjust changes. Overall, I still can't a proper idle mode regardless of where the governor adjustment sets. Moving the throttle control to the "idle position" usually causes the thing to die shortly there after (1-2 seconds). The idle mixture adjustment has no effect, totally closed or well open.... have cleaning / checked the "pinpoint" hole in the throttle body along with checking the needle.
If I adjust the idle speed throttle stop to help with idle, it has to be adjusted such that it seems to impact the normal operating speed to the point that causes a run away, just sitting there. 
The choke position sets at 3/4 closed for cold start, and then usually is happy at half shortly there after and can be moved to about 1/4 or so once it is warmed although I usually keep in 1/2 ish mode to keep it running (hate having to do a manual pull if it dies away from electricity, its ok, but my shoulder has issues... that's why I have a snowblower).

When the thing goes to "run away", if I get a screw driver in at the throttle "tang", I can easily move the tang over to momentarily slow the engine down so the governor doesn't appear to be "stuck". As soon as I release the "tang", the throttle moves directly towards the idle speed stop screw (full throttle position) and heads for the "sky" again.

Not understanding exact how the governor works, but it appears that some how the governor "thinks" the engine is under load and it needs to "amp" up things... but I don't see what causes this. The spring around the shaft the throttle butterfly is relatively thin and weak so it certainly isn't forcing the issue to close the butterfly.

Not sure what else to say but help before I blow my machine or my self up... plus I am not sure how much more fume inhaling I can take... so hopefully some one will get me there sooner than later (or maybe winter will be nice and just go away...  ).

Thanks for any guidance as I am not sure what else to try.... although maybe my next door neighbor's new blower might be the answer... its darn quiet and runs like a lawnboy cutting grass.... just basically doing it job...


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## scrappy

My bet is the plastic governor drive gear is broken. With it running at speed the arm should be trying to close the throttle, should be able to feel this by hand with the heat box removed.
Dont let this continue or you will be posting in the repower section.


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## skutflut

Since you got this as a Sears "return" it implys something was wrong with it from the getgo, because somebody returned it. You might want to invest in a new carb which can be had pretty cheap on Ebay. 

Have you reviewed some of the Youtube videos on how to set up the governor? This would be the first thing to try. There are a bunch, so find one that demonstrates setup on your engine. Donyboy73 has some excellent videos on all aspects of small engine care and repair.

By the sound of it, your internal governor mechanism MIGHT have come apart, which basically means that it's not working at all. It's also possible that in your adjustments, depending on how much you took apart, you might have some linkage in the wrong hole, a weak spring or a missing or wrong spring, a sticking throttle shaft, or a dirty carb with some passages blocked up. The fact that the mixture adjustment has no effect is a big hint.
Something might be binding, or something might be catching on an engine part if the springs and linkages are not in the exact right positions or a bit of sheet metal is bent and snagging something. Maybe post some pictures of the carb, governor lever and linkage and springs showing all the bits and somebody might see a problem right off the bat.

Basic governor operation.
The throttle butterfly is normally wide open with the engine off, and when it starts, the centrifugal weight gizmo inside the engine pushes a plunger that turns the governor shaft in the engine which is attached to the governor lever outside the engine which is attached by a linkage to the throttle on the carb. The moving governor lever closes the throttle to maintain the engine speed at about 3600 rpm max. The governor lever has a spring on it, which is tensioned to counter act the pressure of the governor shaft being rotated by the internal plunger inside the engine. If you have a throttle control lever, that lever basically reduces tension on the governor spring and lets the engine run slower. If the governor spring is too tight or has been stretched (which changes the tension) or hooked into the wrong anchor point (there are usually several holes to select from to get the tension right) then you could have all the problems you mentioned. 

After rereading what I just wrote, I encourage you to check Youtube because video will show you what I am trying to say above.


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## budwich

Thanks. Although I have done alot in terms of auto / truck stuff, small engine is some what of a "unknown beast". Is the governor gear easy to get at (without having to disassemble the "whole engine" which I am pretty reluctant to do at this point in the winter? :-(

Having said that, your statement seems to indicate that the governor is / will be trying to close the butterfly which it is actually appears to be doing "constantly" once it get in the mode. In a "normal controlled mode", I do get some form of governor control / arm movement... but some how after load has been taking away, the governor some how stay "engaged" demanding more power when the arm should be moving out. To me, it almost looks like it is doing the oppose function / operation, after a period of time / post load.


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## classiccat

Get yourself a tachometer. Tecumseh's will grenade if you excessively exceed 3600RPMs.

And review the governor adjustment procedures in the 4-stroke service manual found here. Link. (see page 26)


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## budwich

thanks... yes on the looking at the youtube stuff (yes Donyboy73 is excellent). That's what I have been following / using to give me some time away from the "fumes"...  I am not sure how much hydrocarbons my lungs can take... 

Related to your governor operation "note". Is the governor spring internal to the engine or visible from from the outside. 
On this engine ("classic tecumseh"), there are two connecting wires (not springs in my view) at the governor arm, one goes to the throttle butterfly and the other goes to the throttle control lever. The throttle control level has a spring around its "components" that "link" the lever to a top speed adjustment screw which doesn't appear to do much. That particular spring has only "one loop". The other connector wire goes to the butterfly. the butterfly has a coiled spring around its shaft to force the butterfly close in "doing nothing" mode. Its tension is very thin but it does force the butterfly close when the carb is off the machine (on the bench) so it does work.

The connecting wires are in places as shown by the youtube videos.

The main air fuel mixture screw (bottom of the fuel bowl) works fine and readily adjusts things. Its the idle mixture screw that does not seem to do anything.

I guess the question is, what kind of effort is involved at getting at the governor?

I will try and get a picture or two... and then figure out how to post them herein

PS. I see picture "management" is straight forward like some other forums, so I just need to get the pictures.


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## budwich

classiccat said:


> Get yourself a tachometer. Tecumseh's will grenade if you excessively exceed 3600RPMs.
> 
> And review the governor adjustment procedures in the 4-stroke service manual found here. Link. (see page 26)


that's what got me worried.

thanks for the link on the manuals, I haven't come across this particular one in my searches. I was using a soft cover "how to small engine" book ... the equivalent of "chilton".


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## budwich

Here is a couple of pictures of what the carb / throttle area looks like. One is a view from the throttle control lever side. The other, is from the governor side.

The spring on the throttle control lever area that goes to the top speed adjustment screw seems very sloppy and has only one turn around the "shaft" (not readily viewable from the picture). I don't actually understand what it is attempting to accomplish.
I added a couple of notes to the picture to help focus what I am taking about hopefully.


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## classiccat

budwich said:


> ...
> The main air fuel mixture screw (bottom of the fuel bowl) works fine and readily adjusts things. Its the idle mixture screw that does not seem to do anything.



it sounds like you also have a restriction in the carb's idle circuit. Tecumseh carbs have tiny ports milled inside of the carb body that are infamous for getting clogged. The remedy is often a good soak in carb cleaner...&/or a trip through an ultrasonic cleaner. 

when there isn't a load, but the engine is at the high-speed setting, the throttle should be barely opening therefore most of the idle & intermediate circuits are still supplying a substantial percentage of fuel. 

The governor of course compensates by opening the throttle, like there's a load...however there isn't...hence the surging.


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## skutflut

There should be a governor spring external on the engine, hooked to the governor lever on one end and the throttle lever on the other end. I didn't see one on your photos. That might be your problem. The spring acts in opposition to the internal device to find a balance between the engine pushing on the external lever in one direction, and the spring pulling to opposite way.

The spring over the speed adjustment screw is there to provide tension on the screw so it stays put when you adjust it and doesn't vibrate and unscrew itself. The screw should be in far enough that the spring is compressed somewhat so it does hold the screw snug in the threads.

The internal part of the governor requires that you remove the engine case for access so its not a 5 minute fix.


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## budwich

about the "spring"... if you look at the picture of the governor, there is no hole for the spring to attach to on the lever. On the "donyboy" videos, of a similar system, there is no spring shown either.

as for the adjustment screw spring, that one is fine. The spring on the throttle control is not clearing shown as it is behind the "shaft rivet". In the picture one end attaches to a level that is connected back to the governor and the other end of the spring goes around the shaft and then is connect to a plate / level in behind. That lever contacts the top end speed screw. I will try and get another picture from a different angle / lever position.

In terms of the carb, I have clean and checked all the opening using both sprays and air and all function.


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## skutflut

budwich said:


> about the "spring"... if you look at the picture of the governor, there is no hole for the spring to attach to on the lever. On the "donyboy" videos, of a similar system, there is no spring shown either.


I believe the spring is hiding behind the throttle control bracket, and the adjustment screw he mentions acts on that spring to vary the tension. Take a look and see if there is a spring there and appears to be in good condition. I assume you have adjusted the governor lever as per the instructions in the video?

One sort of generic test is to put the throttle at high speed position, and the move the governor lever back and forth. You should feel fairly stiff resistance to movement. If you put the throttle lever in low speed position, the tension on the governor lever should drop to nearly nothing, in other words little spring resistance.

I just noticed your third picture with the notations regarding the spring tang. That should be the spring that provides the resistance against the governor arm. Is that spring in good shape, and does the speed adjustment screw have any effect on that spring when it is adjusted?


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## budwich

I can't run it right now due to things in the way in the garage but thanks for the pointer on "feel".

I can confirm in the past when getting ready to adjust the governor arm (engine off), with the throttle level down (shut off), the governor arm is basically "floppy" as in little or no force need to move it... probably the only thing holding it is the spring on the butterfly. 

Further on ocassion (iirc) when it has died during my adjustments of the carb (throttle in high), the level has been "tight" to almost unmoveable and pushing the throttle closed. Not sure if its all time, as I haven't always been checking that.


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## budwich

skutflut said:


> I believe the spring is hiding behind the throttle control bracket, and the adjustment screw he mentions acts on that spring to vary the tension. Take a look and see if there is a spring there and appears to be in good condition......
> 
> I just noticed your third picture with the notations regarding the spring tang. That should be the spring that provides the resistance against the governor arm. Is that spring in good shape, and does the speed adjustment screw have any effect on that spring when it is adjusted?


I think we are talking about the same spring now... it is only on the throttle control. It seems pretty "sloppy". It only has one "turn" on it... not sure if there was more at one time. I don't think I have ever taken it out or apart as the throttle control doesn't disassemble other the unbolting from the side of the engine. The spring tangs aren't that easy to get at to remove / replace. 

Anyways, the screw doesn't seem to do much in terms of controlling the tension on lever... yes it seems to keep in contact with the lever but adjusting it doesn't seem to do any in terms of reducing top end speed.


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## skutflut

budwich said:


> I can't run it right now due to things in the way in the garage but thanks for the pointer on "feel".
> 
> I can confirm in the past when getting ready to adjust the governor arm (engine off), with the throttle level down (shut off), the governor arm is basically "floppy" as in little or no force need to move it... probably the only thing holding it is the spring on the butterfly.
> 
> Further on ocassion (iirc) when it has died during my adjustments of the carb (throttle in high), the level has been "tight" to almost unmoveable and pushing the throttle closed. Not sure if its all time, as I haven't always been checking that.


I was editing my last post when your newest one arrived i think.

Have you checked the governor lever where it attaches to the governor shaft coming out of the engine? This would be just behind the hex bolt adjustment point. If the lever is loose on the shaft coming out of the engine, or has been moved from the normal position on the shaft, that will cause trouble.


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## budwich

yep, the level adjustment nut "area" is good and does not "lose" its position.

I am suspecting that the spring on the throttle control is no longer any good or setup correctly. In the youtube vids, donyboy doesn't really provide any good looks at that area other than the screw.


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## skutflut

Rather than another edit, you mentioned that you adjusted the governor with the throttle in the low speed position. It should be adjusted with the throttle in the HIGH speed position, throttle fully open, engine off. Did you try that? 

Of course, is there is something else wrong causing all this trouble, that may not work the way it should anyway.


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## budwich

"ships in the internet"... 

I think I have tried both "methods" during my 2 -3 days... throttle in high, various adjustments to the governor, and then at times trying in "shut off / idle"... but I certainly need to verify that again. IF the spring on the throttle shaft is too weak to control top end speed maybe I need to go there first and get either a replacement spring or the whole throttle control mechanism.


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## skutflut

budwich said:


> "ships in the internet"...
> 
> I think I have tried both "methods" during my 2 -3 days... throttle in high, various adjustments to the governor, and then at times trying in "shut off / idle"... but I certainly need to verify that again. IF the spring on the throttle shaft is too weak to control top end speed maybe I need to go there first and get either a replacement spring or the whole throttle control mechanism.


I was just reviewing donyboy's video, and it appears your spring is in one of the holes on the throttle bracket, and his is in that elongated slot between the holes. Just out of curiosity, where in Ontario are u?


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## budwich

in kanata where the snow is getting deeper... :-( 

Yes I noticed that...BUT the issue is the make up of spring. My spring has a "Z" which I think makes it for "hole placement" while I think has on has an "L" which his is made for "stopper placement", if I am seeing correctly.

PS. forget this, they are the same BUT if I was to move my spring (somehow) to his position, then I think that puts less tension of the spring when will put less force against the governor push to keep speed high.


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## skutflut

budwich said:


> in kanata where the snow is getting deeper... :-(
> 
> Yes I noticed that...BUT the issue is the make up of spring. My spring has a "Z" which I think makes it for "hole placement" while I think has on has an "L" which his is made for "stopper placement", if I am seeing correctly.
> 
> PS. forget this, they are the same BUT if I was to move my spring (somehow) to his position, then I think that puts less tension of the spring when will put less force against the governor push to keep speed high.


Not sure either, but in the interest of a starting point, maybe try putting it the way he shows it, and then follow the process of setting up the governor from step 1 and see what happens. Too much tension on the spring will cause the engine to run faster, less tension will cause it to run slower. I found a picture of your throttle control (I think) on Ebay, and it shows the spring in the slot as well.


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## budwich

I relooked at another donyboy video which he replaces the spring. Indeed it is in the slot and opposed to the hole. I will make that adjustment and see if it helps.


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## skutflut

budwich said:


> I relooked at another donyboy video which he replaces the spring. Indeed it is in the slot and opposed to the hole. I will make that adjustment and see if it helps.


It couldn't hurt.


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## budwich

ok... I gave the "reposition the spring" on the throttle control plate / lever at try. It seems to have helped a bit. Although its darn cold today here and I didn't have any snow to actually blow since I had shovelled (ugh!) all of it on the weekend. It didn't run away after doing a couple of runs up and down the lane but I am not sure that it actually had to take up much / any load. I might have to adjust the top end speed screw a bit as it seems now to be a little low... but too low is better than TOO HIGH... 

Thanks for the guidance / references to date, it seems to have gotten me a bit closer to "ahhhhh".
These things are sure loud compared to the newer units (like my neighbors) although 10hp is a pretty hefty engine to "quiet" with a "6 in muffler".


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## budwich

This is probably more of a general question but could be specific to tecumseh setup.

With the throttle lever in full mode position, and the machine just sitting there with no load, how should the butterfly on the carb be "self positioning" itself? Should it be up against the idle screw, or partially open (ie. somewhere between full open / close)? I can't seem to understand this position... because if it is sitting up against the idle screw, then under full load, I would expect to governor to try and close the buttery down, to "enrich" the system making it run faster... BUT obviously, if its already against the idle screw (basically almost closed), then the governor can't close it any further to get more out of it. Further, if I move the throttle lever, to the idle position, then the butterfly is already at the idle stop, it can't be changed any further to help with slower speed... what? Something doesn't appear right. ???? I guess I need a fuel pump ...


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## skutflut

At full throttle, and no load, the butterfly is not open much (at least on my Briggs engine) but it is open far enough to operate the engine at 3600 RPM. in other words, enough throttle to hold full speed. 

If I move the throttle to the slow position, is reduces the tension on the governor spring and the throttle closes further until the shaft contacts the idle screw. There is not a lot of movement however, doesn't take that much. Maybe your idle screw is screwed in too far so that you never get to the low idle speed. Idle speed should be about 1750 ish RPM, a bit less than half the full load speed of 3600 rpm used in most of these small engines.

I was thinking last night that is sounds as if something is catching or dragging in your linkage that jams the governor and causes the throttle to open too far in spite of the spring or loading of the engine. 

Did you check that the governor arm is not pushed TOO FAR down on the governor shaft coming out of the engine and maybe dragging on the engine casting where the shaft comes out of the block, or maybe some dirt between the lever underside and the block causing things to bind? 

Another possibility is that the internal governor gear and weights might have a problem, like one pin on one weight is broken and things are not running symmetrically and the plunger that pushes on the internal governor shaft is jamming and not allowing the governor shaft to move smoothly back and forth to control the speed based on engine load as RPM drop off, when it wants to add throttle and gets stuck when you come off a load and the plunger on the internal gear doesn't pop out to push the shaft to close the throttle. (Pardon that last stream of thought sentence, I was trying to think like a governor spring).

I saw another post last night where the member was having a governor problem and opened the crankcase, and found that while the governor was good, a little retaining ring that holds the governor gear down so the plunger can operate properly had come off and everything was kind of floating in its general area but not allowing the governor to do its thing.


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## budwich

thanks for the great info. It gives me some more to check. The possibility of an internal issue with governor is probably very real but not my hope as I don't really want to tear into this thing. I will likely have to get my hands on a tach... out here in the "back country", there aren't many sources at a reasonable price (versus the "long distance" on-lines ones... which by the time they get here, the snow will be gone...  ). I am going to try some gentle adjustment on the governor arm to see if I can move up the speed and action a bit as right now I think most of the "work" is being done by the idle screw as far as I can tell.

Just for clarification, when the unit is at "full throttle" and "full load", the butterfly is "pinned" up against the idle stop screw by the governor (in essence)... right?


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## skutflut

budwich said:


> thanks for the great info. It gives me some more to check. The possibility of an internal issue with governor is probably very real but not my hope as I don't really want to tear into this thing. I will likely have to get my hands on a tach... out here in the "back country", there aren't many sources at a reasonable price (versus the "long distance" on-lines ones... which by the time they get here, the snow will be gone...  ). I am going to try some gentle adjustment on the governor arm to see if I can move up the speed and action a bit as right now I think most of the "work" is being done by the idle screw as far as I can tell.
> 
> Just for clarification, when the unit is at "full throttle" and "full load", the butterfly is "pinned" up against the idle stop screw by the governor (in essence)... right?


Nope. When the unit is at high speed on the lever, and at full load moving snow, the throttle should be opened by the governor as far as necessary to maintain engines speed (within the power available from the engine). The throttle shaft should be off the idle adjustment screw and the butterfly open enough to provide fuel and air to keep the engine at speed. If the throttle is still up against the idle screw at full speed and full load, something is really screwy. Adding load to the engine you should be able to see the throttle moving open to maintain speed. 

If you look at the throttle butterfly with the *ENGINE OFF* and the *throttle control on FAST* , you will probably find it FULL OPEN or close to it, and rotated AWAY from the IDLE screw. The governor kicks in when the engine starts spinning and closes the throttle to get to the full throttle speed set by the throttle control at fast.


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## budwich

OK. I think at engine off, the throttle control on fast, the butterfly is fully opened... cause that's way we (I) set it up initially... ie. undo the governor arm nut, ensure that the butterfly is fully open, hold the arm / governor point to ensure there is no slack/movement and tighten.

I think I underestimate how sensitive the adjustment of the arm is along with the top end speed screw.... maybe... or that combination.


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## skutflut

budwich said:


> OK. I think at engine off, the throttle control on fast, the butterfly is fully opened... cause that's way we (I) set it up initially... ie. undo the governor arm nut, ensure that the butterfly is fully open, hold the arm / governor point to ensure there is no slack/movement and tighten.
> 
> I think I underestimate how sensitive the adjustment of the arm is along with the top end speed screw.... maybe... or that combination.


Oh yes, governor adjustment is very sensitive. I think the internal gear/plunger travel is like 1/4 inch total, don't quote me on that, but a little goes a long vay


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## budwich

darn its cold out there... :-(
anyways, I continue to play with the adjustments and can't seem to come up with the right combination.

right now with no load and full throttle (although it doesn't matter where the throttle position is, the speed is the same), it runs well. The butterfly is basically bouncing (ie. lightly touching then not) against the idle speed screw stop. IF I adjust the top end speed screw on the throttle control inwards, it slows the speed the engine down... ??? From the dony video on governor adjustment, I thought turning the screw inwards is suppose to increase the top end speed (of course under load) but why is it having the oppose it affect under no load?

Running no load, I am able to manually control the governor lever at the throttle control plate to slow the engine to a slightly slower rpm so there is some adjustment "room" somewhere... but not sure where or why? Basically, it still appears that the governor thinks the system is under load and needs to increase speed.


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## scrappy

I'm still thinking the governor gear is broken. You should be able to feel it try to pull the throttle blade closed as the rpm's increase.


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## budwich

could be right. :-(
so now with some more "playing", I can readily cause the "runaway". Basically, I was running with the choke at half, things were OK. I then, move the choke to "offish" position, the thing heads for the "sky"... yikes with the butterfly being "pulled" full open.
I then readjusted the main mixture (on the bowl) back to 1.5 turns. Still the same response.


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## budwich

scrappy said:


> I'm still thinking the governor gear is broken. You should be able to feel it try to pull the throttle blade closed as the rpm's increase.


That's the part that is confusing me.
If I get it to run in "some fashion" in "no load" / full throttle level position. The butterfly seems to sit on or near the closed down position... basically up against the idle screw. IF I move the governor lever just a bit by hand (its got some resistance but is doable), this causes the butterfly to open a bit more and the speed reduces.... so why is that the "opposite" of what you are indicating should happen (ie. how can the governor reduce the speed by closing down the butterfly)? Its like at some setting, everything works one way, and some slight change, causes everything to work the opposite.


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## budwich

OK...
some playing.... I think I am "aligned" with you scrappy... 

I re-adjusted the governor arm... to somewhere near the "basic starting setup" (ie. slight angle). With no load, full throttle position, the thing runs but it "slow cycles" (ie. surging) as the governor does its "thing".
IF I grab the arm to prevent it from closing the butterfly, it starts to rev and run away. Once released, the arm "relaxes"....to me it is not pushing but relaxing since the butterfly spring is setup to pull the butterfly closed when no outside "forces" are applied.
So my mission now is to somehow find some setting some where that allows the speed to increase somewhat but not so high that it is constantly causing the governor to "hunt".

BUT having said all that, I can now potentially see that under a load condition for a while, the governor is holding the butterfly open, that potentially once the load comes off, the governor (and / or linkage) could get stuck and not relax and the spring on the butterfly isn't that strong (compared to those used in the auto industry where the throttle body spring can almost cutoff your fingers when it forces the butterfly closed).


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## scrappy

Throttle lever moves the spring, that pulls the throttle plate wide open, as the rpms increase to 3600, inertia causes the governor weights to swing out and pull the throttle back just enough to maintain 3600. When the load increases the rpms start to drop and the spring pulls the plate open. It's a balance between the spring tension and the inertia via the governor arm. 
You should be able to feel the arm pull back the throttle as the speed increases, if not the gear is broken.


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## budwich

I guess my "chicken and egg" question. Which is more active in closing the butterfly... the governor or the spring wrapped around the shaft of the butterfly?


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## scrappy

The gov arm is what closes the throttle, more so than the spring wrapped around the shaft. The throttle spring by the lever pulls open. 

I think the wrapped spring is for at idle, since the throttle spring usually has little to no tension to allow it to idle against the screw stop.


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## budwich

Thanks. So as it sits now... me with frozen hands, the snowblower running at no load full throttle lever, it slightly cycles with basically the butterfly "touching" the idle stop screw. The reduction is in cycling (a bit) came about a from some additional adjustment of the main fuel mixture screw at the bowl. How it takes up load, will see once we get some snow and I warm up...  Having said that, a simple engage of the augers doesn't load it enough.


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## skutflut

budwich said:


> Thanks. So as it sits now... me with frozen hands, the snowblower running at no load full throttle lever, it slightly cycles with basically the butterfly "touching" the idle stop screw. The reduction is in cycling (a bit) came about a from some additional adjustment of the main fuel mixture screw at the bowl. How it takes up load, will see once we get some snow and I warm up...  Having said that, a simple engage of the augers doesn't load it enough.



You mentioned at the beginning of this thread that you had worked on the carburetor, and have adjusted the governor lever. Is there ANY chance that you did not get the lever from the governor back in the same hole in the throttle butterfly as it was in when you started? There's a few holes there, for use with different engines and different linkages, and if you are not in the right place you can have problems. Same question applies to the linkage in the throttle speed control lever.

I was also thinking you might want to email Donyboy73, and see if he can shed any light on your problem. This engine of yours seems hellbent on doing things backwards.


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## budwich

I have double checked the dony videos and my butterfly "holes" are aligned with what is displayed. I think based on guidance that you guys have provided things are better, perhaps not all the way there as the 25 years plus on the machine probably deserves some credit for less than new running with just the occasional cleaning, oil, and plug change. I am hoping it will make it thru this winter and then I will likely try a carb replacement to see if it changes more... this is with the hope that the governor gear is not the issue as I have no desire of dismantling the engine at this point in its life. My concern with the governor appears that maybe its missing some "teeth" such that it seems that it is "non-response" for much of a given setting (ie. arm adjustment) and then with a further slight change, it appears to cross a point where perhaps some teeth exist and that setting then heads for the hills.


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## skutflut

budwich said:


> I have double checked the dony videos and my butterfly "holes" are aligned with what is displayed. I think based on guidance that you guys have provided things are better, perhaps not all the way there as the 25 years plus on the machine probably deserves some credit for less than new running with just the occasional cleaning, oil, and plug change. I am hoping it will make it thru this winter and then I will likely try a carb replacement to see if it changes more... this is with the hope that the governor gear is not the issue as I have no desire of dismantling the engine at this point in its life. My concern with the governor appears that maybe its missing some "teeth" such that it seems that it is "non-response" for much of a given setting (ie. arm adjustment) and then with a further slight change, it appears to cross a point where perhaps some teeth exist and that setting then heads for the hills.


The setting show in the Donyboy video are likely correct for the engine he was working on and maybe for yours as well. Its possible that the original holes for your engine setup are not the same as the one Donyboy was showing. Did you disassemble those linkages when you had the carb off? If so, did you mark the holes where the rods were before hand? I'm just spit balling here thinking of obvious things that may have been overlooked in the discussion so far.

Missing teeth on the governor gear is the less likely problem. broken pivot pin(s) / sticking weight is more likely, but it's a moot point since whichever it is, you have to open the engine to find out. The governor gear spins all the time as it meshes with a gear on the camshaft. Its the weights that move in and out, bringing the plunger with it to press on the governor shaft which rotates it to turn the external governor lever. 

If you plan on keeping that machine over the long term, you might look into a replacement engine from Princess Auto. Check the repower section of the forum and see who had done it with your engine model. Just out of curiosity, does your engine have two output shafts, one driving the auger, and a different one driving the wheels, or are both pulleys on the same shaft. Reason I ask is twin shaft engines are a PITA to replace with single shaft engines. Needs a bunch of McGivering to get the drive direction fixed.


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## budwich

Perhaps.... but the dony video were my "reference" only during this last "effort" (ie. last week or so). Originally, 10-12 years ago when I had done the originally cleaning, I had set a wire tang on the appropriate hole while the carb was soaking in cleaner.... it is the same hole as the dony.... BUT you mention an interesting point though... I guess the other holes are there for some adjustment / compensation over the years or maybe between models. I have tried moving up and down the "hole row" but I am not sure what to expect and also was not sure whether other adjustments were close to correct before the "hole experiment". 

Your explanation on the governor operation helps though as I thought that the plunger pushed on the gear via a "toothed shaft" which then rotated the outside arm. Hence if there was an issue with the gear (kind of flat spot), then it might not move and then "catch" if there was enough movement to "mesh" again. But you are right, that if I can't get satisfaction out of the various external adjustment, internal inspection might be the only answer. As for whether its got single or dual output shafts... don't know, its a trac machine if that is any indication of the type of setup.


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## skutflut

budwich said:


> Perhaps.... but the dony video were my "reference" only during this last "effort" (ie. last week or so). Originally, 10-12 years ago when I had done the originally cleaning, I had set a wire tang on the appropriate hole while the carb was soaking in cleaner.... it is the same hole as the dony.... BUT you mention an interesting point though... I guess the other holes are there for some adjustment / compensation over the years or maybe between models. I have tried moving up and down the "hole row" but I am not sure what to expect and also was not sure whether other adjustments were close to correct before the "hole experiment".
> 
> Your explanation on the governor operation helps though as I thought that the plunger pushed on the gear via a "toothed shaft" which then rotated the outside arm. Hence if there was an issue with the gear (kind of flat spot), then it might not move and then "catch" if there was enough movement to "mesh" again. But you are right, that if I can't get satisfaction out of the various external adjustment, internal inspection might be the only answer. As for whether its got single or dual output shafts... don't know, its a trac machine if that is any indication of the type of setup.


Pop off the belt cover, and you will be able to see if there are two separate shafts with pulleys coming from the engine, or only one shaft with two pulleys, one close to the engine, and the other, separated by spacer, close to the end of the crankshaft. Hope for the single shaft, as it makes repowering easier.


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## budwich

Played some more with the "nice weather" allowing the garage to be at a reasonable temp.

Now this is where the confusion rains...
IF I set / adjust (holding screw on the arm) the governor at the "basic starting position" (ie. with butterfly fully open and the governor "pin" pushed fully away from the engine body, slight angle between arm and pin), the engine runs reasonable under no load, at full throttle with a bit of surging / cycling. The butterfly will bounce off the idle screw. IF I manual pull the governor arm away from the engine body (clockwise look down at the governor "pin"), as expected the engine revs up to some speed depending on how far I pull on the lever. Once released, it returns immediately and engine speed drops. Seems as expected.

IF I make a small adjustment of the governor, moving it probably less than 1/64 of inch clockwise (based on marks I made on the governor "pin" and the arm, then things work "funny". Now when I start the engine, it take about 3-4 seconds before the engine now is reving very high (don't have a tach yet) and heading higher. The buttery is up against the idle stop. IF I quickly move the governor arm away from the engine (ie. clockwise), in the direction same as before, the engine reduces speed signficantly and things are fine as long as I hold the arm in some position (ie. not fully opened or closed). IF I release the arm, it immediately is pulled back towards the engine and the reving heads for the hills.

This is what has been confusing me from the start as based on one position, things work as expected (ie. governor opening buttery, increases speed). In another position (probably1/64 rotated), every things seems opposite, governor arm moved out, speed decreases. What gives???


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## skutflut

budwich said:


> Played some more with the "nice weather" allowing the garage to be at a reasonable temp.
> 
> Now this is where the confusion rains...
> IF I set / adjust (holding screw on the arm) the governor at the "basic starting position" (ie. with butterfly fully open and the governor "pin" pushed fully away from the engine body, slight angle between arm and pin), the engine runs reasonable under no load, at full throttle with a bit of surging / cycling. The butterfly will bounce off the idle screw. IF I manual pull the governor arm away from the engine body (clockwise look down at the governor "pin"), as expected the engine revs up to some speed depending on how far I pull on the lever. Once released, it returns immediately and engine speed drops. Seems as expected.
> 
> IF I make a small adjustment of the governor, moving it probably less than 1/64 of inch clockwise (based on marks I made on the governor "pin" and the arm, then things work "funny". Now when I start the engine, it take about 3-4 seconds before the engine now is reving very high (don't have a tach yet) and heading higher. The buttery is up against the idle stop. IF I quickly move the governor arm away from the engine (ie. clockwise), in the direction same as before, the engine reduces speed signficantly and things are fine as long as I hold the arm in some position (ie. not fully opened or closed). IF I release the arm, it immediately is pulled back towards the engine and the reving heads for the hills.
> 
> This is what has been confusing me from the start as based on one position, things work as expected (ie. governor opening buttery, increases speed). In another position (probably1/64 rotated), every things seems opposite, governor arm moved out, speed decreases. What gives???


When you adjusted the governor arm, was the throttle control at full high speed position? *According to the other Donyboy video, covering governor adjustment, when you adjust the governor arm pivot screw, this should be done with the throttle control lever in the DOWN position. His video shows a subtitle in green with that information at 2:56 in the video at the point where he is adjusting the governor arm pivot screw. I just noticed that after watching it again*

When you move the throttle control from slow to fast and back, (engine off) does the plate pivot freely, under the spring tension of the governor spring (the plate where the governor linkage rod is connected) You should be able to rock that back and forth against the governor tension spring.

Check the throttle plate on the carb, the thing with the holes where the governor linkage attaches. Can you see if its loose on the throttle shaft at all, like maybe the plate is moving and the throttle butterfly shaft is spinning inside the hole in the throttle plate as it is in the video link below? 
www.youtube.com/watch?v=oG_sUL1PKYY


Also, after looking again at your photos on the first page of this thread, I noticed that the gasket between your carb and intake manifold tube looks strange. Is that gasket sealing properly?


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## budwich

The throttle control appears to move fine. When you go from high to low and back, its loose at low and tight at high. As for the butterfly shaft / plate, it was good as I did have it apart to ensure and clean the idle mixture holes which are near / around the butterfly area. There is no looseness in the "plate rivet" (as seen in Dony's "repair").
The "gasket" is a diy one that I made. Previously, when I had taken things apart / cleaned things (15 years ago), there was none. At that time, I couldn't find a ready source so I did a "diy" one. I redid it this past cleaning (ie. new diy one) and it seems fine. 

I have order an "on-line" carb as they are cheap but of course, its coming from the other side of the world, so it could be a bit of delay. I phoned a place locally and they wanted $150 for a tecumseh one and 50-60 for a "no name". They were asking for an engine "number" but I haven't been able to locate any identifiers others than the "10/28" labelling from the craftsman paintings. 
Looking at ebay pictures on line there seems to be a "common carb" for a number of units running from hm80-90, hmk80-100, plus a few others. Not sure what the differences might be but the pictures look very similar to the current unit that I have. Anyways, for the $20, I figure it is a good gamble. Probably should have tried it earlier. 

I haven't tried a different setup of the governor arm yet, but in the recent past (ie. last week) in my "multi-hour" attempt at trying to find the right setup, I did try both "techniques" (ie. throttle control full, low) and it didn't help but I need to recheck just in case something else was interacting with it. I think all that setup in "low throttle" does, is it relaxes springs on the throttle controller such that movement of the arm and buttery are not restricted.... but maybe I misunderstand what I am seeing. Anyways, ultimately when you look at most of the setup videos and descriptions, they mostly refer to a "slight angle" on the arm with respect to the governor "pin"... that is where it has been setup, give or take some small (very small) movement either in or out in my quest.


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## skutflut

Oh well, I was just hoping that carb throttle rivet thing might have been the problem. Let us know how it works with the new carburetor.


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## lsettle

I may have the part you are looking for. I can spot you it till you new carb comes. PM me.

Lawrence
Nova Scotia


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## budwich

thanks for the offer, Isettle. No problem though in terms of time as my two neighbors have offered reliable units (for a beer or two...  ), til I get mine going so I am OK outside of just the frustration which maybe some wait time won't hurt.

I guess the thing that I don't understand is since the governor is purely mechanical, IF I do its work by moving the arm manually, how do I get different engine responses depending on, I don't know what... basically engine speed.... but how can that be as the only outside the engine "input" is the carb which is operating in similar fashion in both cases... butterfly near closed position and then opened.... in one case, as butterfly opens, the engine speed increases and in the other, butterfly opens engine speed decreases... this is without changing anything on the carb in terms of mixture, idle speed mixture, idle speed screw, top speed screw.


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## skutflut

I don't know if you have seen this video, but its a detailed how to fix the spring on the throttle lever.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=16lQOZF3e84


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## budwich

yes I have seen it... that was the one that I used to confirm where the spring should be located, in the slot or hole... slot wins 

anyways, my issue could be related to that spring. It certainly isn't broken as I did reposition it based on your earlier comments. BUT perhaps it is weak as I am not sure if it is countering the force of the governor arm as it should. In the Dony video referenced, it would appear that he gets relatively good "push back" by the lever when the throttle is moved up. I can't say that I get as much as... but it maybe just "optics". I will double check things... lucky rain doesn't need blowing ...


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## budwich

well after a nice time away, got a replacement carb and installed it. 
The good news is that the machine started up OK and now appears to run reasonable in terms of "doesn't run away"... phew... which is good. But now there is the cycling / hunt issue. I haven't touched anything on the carb itself or throttle linkage from the old carb. I need to "re-learn" things about what and where to adjust, and do just one adjustment at a time. I will likely focus on the governor arm adjustment first, perhaps the old position is wrong. Glad the snow is gone...


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## HCBPH

If you have the tecumseh tech manual (can be found and downloaded off the web) there's some general guidance in adjusting jets which I can't remember off the top of my head. That's where I'd start.


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## budwich

OK... winter is just around the corner so I am getting back to this.
The new carb is installed and I have adjustment the governor to a position where at full throttle, the unit runs but has a little bit of "hunt". Speed based on my "cheap" little induction tach, is around 3200-3400. No load. IF I prevent the governor from "hunting" by just slightly stopping its motion at the throttle linkage so it can't to close down the throttle plate, I can get the thing to basically run at a "steady-ish 3600" (cheap induction doesn't get you a great measurement... :-( ). 
It would appear that the spring that goes around the throttle lever is perhaps weak and can't put on enough force to counter the "closing" force of the governor.

Is this the right "read"? 

Also, if I move the throttle lever just a bit off full throttle, the unit dies very quick and won't idle. I have tried adjusting the idle stop screw which prevents how closed down the throttle plate goes, but that doesn't seem to help at any point in the adjustment.

Do people actually get this things (craftsman) to idle like some of the other blowers out there (eg. honda)?


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## stromr

since your carb is new and it still surges I'd look for an air leak in the inlet track, check the gaskets at the engine or carb end, a restriction in your fuel line, broken, dirty or stuck governor vane and last but not least burned valves...


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## thool

It wouldn't surprise me too much to find cases where people tried to fix an engine, incorrectly reassembled the governor system, and then someone else inherited an issue like this.

I always remember that the throttle input "suggests" a speed via a soft spring to the governor arm, and that the governor arm "commands" slow-down force to the butterfly via a hard linkage.


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## budwich

thool said:


> It wouldn't surprise me too much to find cases where people tried to fix an engine, incorrectly reassembled the governor system, and then someone else inherited an issue like this.
> 
> I always remember that the throttle input "suggests" a speed via a soft spring to the governor arm, and that the governor arm "commands" slow-down force to the butterfly via a hard linkage.


Not sure how to take this... basically you are saying there is "no hope"... as the soft "set" spring is "fighting" against the "hard desgin" of the governor which if isn't "assembled" (I take this as internal) correctly, then it is unlikely to have enough "compensation". This would then take a "total disassemble" of the governor to re-do everything... which is probably outside my means.... :-(

I will check the areas that was suggested by the previous post to see if things around the new carb are correct / not leaking.


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## thool

budwich said:


> Not sure how to take this... basically you are saying there is "no hope"... as the soft "set" spring is "fighting" against the "hard desgin" of the governor which if isn't "assembled" (I take this as internal) correctly, then it is unlikely to have enough "compensation". This would then take a "total disassemble" of the governor to re-do everything... which is probably outside my means.... :-(
> 
> I will check the areas that was suggested by the previous post to see if things around the new carb are correct / not leaking.


What I was saying is sometimes people try to fix something, and return products in an altered configuration.

The basic principles to remember can be summed up: the throttle input to the governor arm is soft through a spring or springed arm, and the governor input to the butterfly is hard through a linkage.

Not saying this is your problem at all; watch the video from Donyboy and you'll see your configuration looks just like his. This suggests either an internal issue with the conterweights or spool, or the governor arm angle, or something outside of the governor system.


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## budwich

OK.... thanks, I think I understand. Since the original history of the machine is a "return", it is quite possible that buyer may have done something "externally" to the machine (ie. carb setting, linkages) but unlikely that they would have gone any further, hopefully, not messing with the internals / governor vane / shaft.

As suggested, I looked at the carb closer and took off the main fuel / bowl bolt (and fuel mixture screw) to inspect the float. I found that the washer which is supposed to be fiber appears to be some form of "neoprene" like material (ie. soft). It had fractured around the interior of the bolt with some inside / around the "shaft" of the bolt. This broken off ring may have been actually interfering with the intake hole on the bolt that feeds / is controlled by the mixture screw.

I also readjusted the governor arm to the "manual suggested" starting setup.

I started the thing up and low and behold the thing idles to a degree, not really smooth but at least it idles. Now at full throttle, it appears to hold speed at around 3500 rpm (no load) with no hunting. It does have a bit of choke on at this point.... BUT certainly better operation that previously. Of course, this is in nice 20C degrees...  

I am hoping that this operating condition will hold towards early winter.

Thanks for the suggestions / guidance. For now, I have my fingers crossed that we get NO snow...


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## budwich

I continued to work at this. Found the oring on the mixture needle was "crushed" / deformed. The brass washer was bent which likely caused the oring problem. Someone at the "supplier" (cheap offshore purchase) must have overcranked the needle in its bottom seating causing a slight ridge on the shoulder of the spring sleeve area. Anyways, replaced the oring, removed the ridge with a small file. Put things back together and now have the thing running at full around 3500 rpm (no load). Idle at slow works well after a bit of adjustment of the idle stop along with a minor "riching" of the idle mixture. Now idles at around 1900 rpm.
I might still play with the main fuel mixture setting to see if I can smooth it out a bit more but certainly, it now runs better than last 5-6 years.
I can hardly wait for snow.... NOT!


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## stromr

I stand corrected! It was the carb?!?!?! A new carb! I had to go back and read your posts again. This was a new carb. ***! You can't even buy new products anymore and be sure they're in new condition. Please tell us where you bought that carb so the rest of us don't patronize this unreliable and unreputable business.

PS: I love winter! I can't wait for it to snow!


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## budwich

It was new... glistening clean. As I indicated, it was an "off shore purchase" (thru ebay) which was less than $10 (including shipping) so I guess one shouldn't expect much. An equivalent, here in town was running $60-$70 as the cheapest which I suspect would have been "local off shore stock". The only difference is I might have been able to take it back.

One other point, your comment about "fuel delivery area" was what made me look closer into the carb so that was a great help.


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## JamesReady

A "surging" motor is always a dirty carb...!!! Remember that and save yourself some aggravation... Sorry I did not see this post earlier..... !!


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## Kiss4aFrog

stromr said:


> You can't even buy new products anymore and be sure they're in new condition. Please tell us where you bought that carb so the rest of us don't patronize this unreliable and unreputable business


If we see a trend I'm all for posting a warning but I've bought a couple really cheap carbs from China and both worked great. Even with slave labor I'm not sure how they can make and sell a replacement for ten bucks.
Just because one carb comes off the line poorly assembled or damaged doesn't necessarily indicate all that companies product is junk but it's worth taking into account.


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## HCBPH

I've replaced several carbs over the years with Oregons I've picked up off Ebay. One thing I've seen with those, a couple of times I needed to swap a piece of linkage, choke etc off the original carb. Without exception, they've all fit without any mods.


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## JamesReady

My experience also..! China parts work most of the time.. **** cheap..!!


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## budwich

As a follow up to all this, the snow has arrived ... :-(
The good news is that even with the cold weather and white stuff, the unit started and ran well. Possibly even better than when originally purchased from the clearance store. Thanks to everyone for the ideas, suggestions, and information. It certainly helped me appreciate the knowledge and helpfulness in this forum. Happy snow blowing to one and all. Now back to dreaming of warmer climates...


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