# Ariens EFI - Anyone try one yet?



## Dannoman

Ariens put out a fuel injected snowblower about a year ago. They aren't cheap. They say you don't need to worry about draining fuel any more and all you need to do is turn the key and go. Has anyone here bought one of these machines, and how do they feel about it so far?


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## GoBlowSnow

Yup, a number have purchased em. They are ok, but for long term.. still to be decided. I won't get one until they design a model that doesn't need a battery for the fuel injection system. It's just trouble waiting to happen.


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## zandor

I have one, an Ariens Platinum SHO 24" EFI. I bought it since we can't get non-ethanol gas around here and I'm a bit of a tech geek. Mostly because I'm a tech geek. So far it's done a good job of keeping big snows away from Chicago. I want a big snow (by Chicago standards - 12-18") so I can actually try this thing out. We haven't gotten more than 3-4" all winter. Today I was waiting around for it to stop snowing, then decided to go ahead and clear my snow since it was getting too close to game time (Superbowl). It promptly stopped snowing and the sky was blue by the time I finished.

The battery system is my only complaint about it so far. It's not that it has a battery, it's the type of battery and how it's mounted. EFI needs electricity, so I doubt the battery will ever go away. The current models use a 7.2V "Ariens" battery buried under the dash. I think it should use a standard, common battery and the battery should be easily removable. If you want to charge it, you should be able to just pop it off the blower and carry it into the house.

If I were designing it I would give it an 18V electrical system. Add a transformer for lower voltage components. It probably has one anyway for the computer. The machines would not charge the battery. You would either use disposable batteries or just take the battery into the house to charge it. They would ship with a battery holder that took a dozen common (AAA, AA, C, or D) batteries and a mail-in card (also redeemable online) for one battery adapter. You could choose DeWalt, Milwaukee, Ryobi, etc. Hopefully an 18V tool battery would allow battery start. If that worked out I would also eliminate the 120VAC starter, so you might have to pull start with disposable batteries.


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## nastorino

I had a 24" Platinum EFI SHO that I used last year. No issues at all with it in my cold unheated Connecticut garage. I had my blower sit in my garage all summer and fall. I sold it this November and purchased a Hydro Pro 28" EFI as I wanted EFI and the hydro function...best of both worlds. Before selling it I turned it on, and pulled it and it started right up. I hadn't started it since mid summer when I cleaned the garage and had to move it.

I can't even imagine how much fuel the standard 420cc AX drinks compared to the EFI model...despite the fuel tank being small i'd still suggest the EFI to friends.


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## jsup

I wouldn't spend an extra nickel on EFI for a snowblower. There's no good reason to do it and a bunch not to.


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## dhazelton

90% of small engine problems are probably carb related - THAT is a good reason to upgrade. No one who has a modern car or a motorcycle wishes they were harder to start or less fuel efficient.


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## tadawson

No, just cheaper and easier to fix . . . . There are more small passages in an EFI prone to issues with crud in fuel than in a carb. Oh, and I don't ever recall any carbureted car I have owned as hard to start . . . . (or any carbed small enginenfor that matter . . . at least that wasn't worn out). And somehow, I think fuel efficiency in a snowblower just wont be that different, or even relevant. Engines that run largely at one speed/power setting aren't that hard to get right with a carb . . . . It's the EPA and all the emissions overregulation that is pushing EFI on small engines, not common sense or need . . .


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## jsup

dhazelton said:


> 90% of small engine problems are probably carb related - THAT is a good reason to upgrade. No one who has a modern car or a motorcycle wishes they were harder to start or less fuel efficient.


Not a fair comparison. I've been through this. Cars operate in all kinds of conditions, snowblowers operate in defined small window. You can accurately predict and design for that.

90% is pull an number out of the air as demonstrated by the use of "probably" and is clearly an exaggeration.

Fuel efficiency? What, you going to burn 20 gallons of gas instead of 17? Big deal. That's gonna really save the planet and pay your mortgage.

I'd rather replace a carb every 10 years, which I never had to do in 18 years with my last blower, than have to baby a battery every single year as described above. Never mind the unnecessary complexity and points of failure incumbent with such a system. How much is a battery? Without being taken out, taken inside, and put on a trickle charge, or maintainer, they probably have to be replaced every 2 years, like a boat. 

Pumping a primer, and setting a choke is a small price to pay for simplicity, long term reliability, and low total costs of ownership of a carb engine.

Like anything else, it has more to do with the owner and how they maintain their equipment than the minor differentiations equipment itself. Treat EFI the way you treat a carb, no stable, stale gas, etc... it's going to have problems too, more expensive and complicated problems at that.


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## drmerdp

I really want to get my hands on one of these ax Efi machines. I don’t know enough about it to draw accurate conclusions. 

At face value, of course an efi makes things more complicated to repair, and probably more money to repair if the need arises. But, it does have its perks for average joe. 

Replacing a battery is easier then replacing a carb.


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## tadawson

Considering that you almost never need to replace a carb, I find that argument generally nonsensical . . . 

And carb remove/replace (new or old) isn't much harder than the battery, for whatever that is worth . . .


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## drmerdp

tadawson said:


> Considering that you almost never need to replace a carb, I find that argument generally nonsensical . . .
> 
> And carb remove/replace (new or old) isn't much harder than the battery, for whatever that is worth . . .


It’s sensical. 

Take average joe who left old fuel in his machine for 10 months. He has limited mechanical knowledge and barely any tools. The carb is gummed up and needs to be cleaned, hence needs to be removed or replaced because average joe doesn’t know the finer points of a carbs main and idle fuel circuits and how to clean them thoroughly. 

The EFI system has a closed fuel system that doesn’t leave fuel open to the atmosphere. It will take Many many years for this gas to degrade to the point of gumming and won’t accumulate any additional moisture. The biggest harm is stale fuel that lost its btu value. 

That piece of mind, for the cost of a cr2032 battery every few years... I see the appeal. I also like electronically governed engines, maximizes an engine power that a mechanical governor cannot do.


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## jsup

drmerdp said:


> It’s sensical.
> 
> Take average joe who left old fuel in his machine for 10 months. He has limited mechanical knowledge and barely any tools. The carb is gummed up and needs to be cleaned, hence needs to be removed or replaced because average joe doesn’t know the finer points of a carbs main and idle fuel circuits and how to clean them thoroughly.
> 
> The EFI system has a closed fuel system that doesn’t leave fuel open to the atmosphere. It will take Many many years for this gas to degrade to the point of gumming and won’t accumulate any additional moisture. The biggest harm is stale fuel that lost its btu value.
> .


Ya know there's 2 threads here, and a third person on one of those threads that most likely have their injectors gummed up. Injectors gum up and clog just like carbs. They only had their machines for 1 season before it happened.


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## RedOctobyr

I realize it's not the point at all. But I think these are using 7.2V NiMH battery packs, not little button cells like a CR2032. It needs to be able to run a fuel pump, at least, which I'm guessing the tiny batteries couldn't do. 

Someone earlier asked about whether you could use normal individual batteries, in a holder. There's probably not an electrical-load reason that you couldn't do that. But the blower also charges this pack while running. So as soon as Ariens provided a generic battery holder, you'd have to worry about someone using alkaline batteries, and the blower then trying to charge them, which wouldn't work. 

But there's probably no reason that you couldn't build your own pack, or battery holder, and loading it with batteries of the correct chemistry type, and suitable capacity. If you wanted a spare pack, or you wanted to replace theirs with something you liked better.


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## tadawson

drmerdp said:


> It’s sensical.
> 
> Take average joe who left old fuel in his machine for 10 months. He has limited mechanical knowledge and barely any tools. The carb is gummed up and needs to be cleaned, hence needs to be removed or replaced because average joe doesn’t know the finer points of a carbs main and idle fuel circuits and how to clean them thoroughly.
> 
> The EFI system has a closed fuel system that doesn’t leave fuel open to the atmosphere. It will take Many many years for this gas to degrade to the point of gumming and won’t accumulate any additional moisture. The biggest harm is stale fuel that lost its btu value.
> 
> That piece of mind, for the cost of a cr2032 battery every few years... I see the appeal. I also like electronically governed engines, maximizes an engine power that a mechanical governor cannot do.


Take a look at an actual implementation and give it another try. A carb R&R is 10 mins max . . . And, as others have noted, the fuel tank is the same EFI or not, and a carb is not really open to the air either (at least not the bowl). And frankly, if you can comprehend anything much more advanced that a rock, you can deal with a carb. I don't know where the myth that they are complicated and confusing comes from . . . it's about 4 moving parts for gods sake! Heck, I rescued one that had been sitting 20 years with fuel in it . . . didn't need to clean past the bowl. The myths on this stuff are just amazing . . . . 

Just consider the almost microscopic nozzles on an injector, and a carb looks like a freeway tunnel. Guess which one is going to crap up first?

Oh, and folks have noted that you need tools and some time to get the EFI battery off an Ariens at this point . . . from what is described, it sounds slower and more complicated that pulling a carb!


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## jsup

For your reading enjoyment:

http://www.snowblowerforum.com/foru.../134698-2017-deluxe-30-efi-rough-running.html

http://www.snowblowerforum.com/forum/ariens-snowblowers/134594-ariens-fuel-injection-snowblower.html


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## 1132le

tadawson said:


> Take a look at an actual implementation and give it another try. A carb R&R is 10 mins max . . . And, as others have noted, the fuel tank is the same EFI or not, and a carb is not really open to the air either (at least not the bowl). And frankly, if you can comprehend anything much more advanced that a rock, you can deal with a carb. I don't know where the myth that they are complicated and confusing comes from . . . it's about 4 moving parts for gods sake! Heck, I rescued one that had been sitting 20 years with fuel in it . . . didn't need to clean past the bowl. The myths on this stuff are just amazing . . . .
> 
> Just consider the almost microscopic nozzles on an injector, and a carb looks like a freeway tunnel. Guess which one is going to crap up first?
> 
> Oh, and folks have noted that you need tools and some time to get the EFI battery off an Ariens at this point . . . from what is described, it sounds slower and more complicated that pulling a carb!


31 yrs of driving injected cars several with 140k miles never had an injector clog or one go bad for that matter
injectors are cheap most likely easy to change just like a car
gummed up most times is operator error has nothing to do with carb vs injector
ill keep the carb myself
as stated before and then shown with a graph
injection has flatter stronger longer torque curve just what blowers want
the blower i tested with efi kept the motor at max rpm instantly and had more power from the machine

https://www.ariens.com/en-us/efi-ez-launch


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## jsup

1132le said:


> 31 yrs of driving injected cars several with 140k miles never had an injector clog or one go bad for that matter


Again, faulty analogy. I'm not sure how many times I have to say this until people get it. Not the same thing, not even close.



> injectors are cheap most likely easy to change just like a car


What do you consider cheap and easy? Which cars have you changed injectors on? Just wonderin'. 



> gummed up most times is operator error has nothing to do with carb vs injector


And that same person is going to treat the machine the same regardless of the fuel delivery. Problems will be just as frequent, harder to troubleshoot, and more expensive to fix. 




> ill keep the carb myself
> as stated before and then shown with a graph
> injection has flatter stronger longer torque curve just what blowers want
> the blower i tested with efi kept the motor at max rpm instantly and had more power from the machine
> 
> https://www.ariens.com/en-us/efi-ez-launch



That's marketing material. There is NO REASON a carb put up the same graph, or better. It's just a choice of the designers/engineers, that they choose not to. A little more cam, a little less overlap, that could change. We don't know ANYTHING about the design of the engine to say the difference is a result of the fuel delivery system. To come to the conclusion that it has to do with fuel delivery is exactly the conclusion the marketers want you to come to.


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## 1132le

jsup said:


> Again, faulty analogy. I'm not sure how many times I have to say this until people get it. Not the same thing, not even close.
> 
> 
> 
> What do you consider cheap and easy? Which cars have you changed injectors on? Just wonderin'.
> 
> 
> 
> And that same person is going to treat the machine the same regardless of the fuel delivery. Problems will be just as frequent, harder to troubleshoot, and more expensive to fix.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's marketing material. There is NO REASON a carb put up the same graph, or better. It's just a choice of the designers/engineers, that they choose not to. A little more cam, a little less overlap, that could change. We don't know ANYTHING about the design of the engine to say the difference is a result of the fuel delivery system. To come to the conclusion that it has to do with fuel delivery is exactly the conclusion the marketers want you to come to.


This post is about if someone has used and efi blower 
I have it has much more power at max rpm and holds it
thats hands on operation
Have you used one
I ran matched injectors in my 302 5.0 notchback ford that i built the engine in and drag raced among many other cars
Along with using nitrous as far back as 1980 i was street outlaws before they were
Ya know those classes you were talking about i raced in class racing for many many years LOL
More cam and less overlap this 1 day at bandcamp
Please dont respond iam not interested in anything you have to say as you know everything
Have a nice day


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## crazzywolfie

jsup said:


> What do you consider cheap and easy? Which cars have you changed injectors on? Just wonderin'.


i think the same thing. injectors are not cheap new and are usually a bit of a pain to change especially if they have not moved in a while. 

i can see the appeal of fuel injection for some but i personally don't see it for people that are willing to do some basic maintenance. most of the time it is generally just crud in the float bowl or a clogged jet. both are easily and quickly fixed. as far as fuel consumption goes i doubt a fuel injected engine will really get you much less fuel consumption. i have a feeling the OHV setup was the best thing to hit small engines as far as fuel consumption goes. i know the 250cc briggs engine on my new 26" snowblower is awesome on fuel and blows snow super good. i can do my entire neighbor hood on less than 1 tank of fuel. the 10.5hp on my other blower would burn thru a tank or 2 of fuel to move the same amount of snow.


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## drmerdp

tadawson said:


> Take a look at an actual implementation and give it another try. A carb R&R is 10 mins max . . . And, as others have noted, the fuel tank is the same EFI or not, and a carb is not really open to the air either (at least not the bowl). And frankly, if you can comprehend anything much more advanced that a rock, you can deal with a carb. I don't know where the myth that they are complicated and confusing comes from . . . it's about 4 moving parts for gods sake! Heck, I rescued one that had been sitting 20 years with fuel in it . . . didn't need to clean past the bowl. The myths on this stuff are just amazing . . . .
> 
> Just consider the almost microscopic nozzles on an injector, and a carb looks like a freeway tunnel. Guess which one is going to crap up first?
> 
> Oh, and folks have noted that you need tools and some time to get the EFI battery off an Ariens at this point . . . from what is described, it sounds slower and more complicated that pulling a carb!


Im not totally sure what your argument is, but I agree carbs are not complicated.

Did anyone really think there wouldn’t be teething issues with a system like this. I’m saying there is a place in the market for it, and it’s not a bad thing. 

There is a ton of efficiency that comes with electronically governed engine. iGX engines have this combined with a standard carburetor. LCT decided to use fuel injection, whatever. 

Honda EU generators are an excellent example of how rock solid an electronicly governed engine can be. 



> Just consider the almost microscopic nozzles on an injector, and a carb looks like a freeway tunnel. Guess which one is going to crap up first?


Its clear you have limited experience with all this.

Injectors rarely gum up, And I’ve never seen one clog shut. 99.9 percent of the time, if I’m replacing injectors, it’s because for larger ones. For the record I recently did replace 4 on a troublesome f350 5.4 with 280000 miles on it. 

The float bowl is always exposed to air, it has a vent on it. 

Never said carbs are rocket science. I’m speaking for the perspective of someone who for starters, is not on an Outdoor Power Equipment forum. There’s a growing number that barely knows how to paint a room let alone diagnose fuel, spark, or compression and repair. Though YouTube is the saving grace for the many willing to try. 

And awesome sites like this of course.

I work on classic cars with carburetors constantly, and EFI provides so much more then a carburetor can. 

I was goofing with the battery size, but honestly didnt know exactly what type of battery the system needs to power the computer and prime the fuel system. 

Googled..

So the battery is a nickel metal hydride at 7.2v ? Kinda Like a remote control car. 

It would make sense to me to have the EFi system paired with a 12v electric start setup like Honda uses.


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## tadawson

Until we see EFI and a carb on the same displacement, it's going to be hard to compare. So far, I only see EFI on the bigger engines, so of course there will be more power . . . . just not necessarily due to the EFI . . .


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## 1132le

crazzywolfie said:


> i think the same thing. injectors are not cheap new and are usually a bit of a pain to change especially if they have not moved in a while.
> 
> i can see the appeal of fuel injection for some but i personally don't see it for people that are willing to do some basic maintenance. most of the time it is generally just crud in the float bowl or a clogged jet. both are easily and quickly fixed. as far as? fuel consumption goes i doubt a fuel injected engine will really get you much less fuel consumption. i have a feeling the OHV setup was the best thing to hit small engines as far as fuel consumption goes. i know the 250cc briggs engine on my new 26" snowblower is awesome on fuel and blows snow super good. i can do my entire neighbor hood on less than 1 tank of fuel. the 10.5hp on my other blower would burn thru a tank or 2 of fuel to move the same amount of snow.


what % of people can pull a carb and clean it? maybe 1 % ok maybe 5 % its very little
Its easy you say
it is if you know how to do it everything is easy after you know how
I said i would keep the carb ( i cleaned mine twice since i got the blower they guy i got it from was a bad owner
people throw blowers and lawn mowers away all the time most of the time you can clean the carb change the oil its good to go 
There is a power advantage to EFI i used one i could clearly feel it
There are already 3rd party kits out in the 500 to 700 range to convert small engines
it will only get cheaper and better in future years as it gets perfected
just like it did to put it on old cars that came with carbs run a return line etc
epa carbs are awfull it limits how good you can make a blower run without changing the jet or drilling the jet out
temp changes the needs as well
the efi blower does it for you the e gov response is borderline nasty good
90% or better my guess dont fix there own machine and cant so it goes to the dealer anyway
bad owners cause most issues on small equipment and things in general then look for someone to blame
Look at all the bad reviews you see online about things many times you can read the review and tell they are clueless and its there own fault


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## jsup

1132le said:


> This post is about if someone has used and efi blower
> I have it has much more power at max rpm and holds it thats hands on operation


Using something does not impart expertise. 



> I ran matched injectors in my 302 5.0 notchback ford that i built the engine in and drag raced among many other cars
> Along with using nitrous as far back as 1980 i was street outlaws before they were
> Ya know those classes you were talking about i raced in class racing for many many years LOL
> More cam and less overlap this 1 day at bandcamp
> Please dont respond iam not interested in anything you have to say as you know everything
> Have a nice day


So...you had a fuel injected car. That's nice. 

I had a company that sold injectors. I sold custom flow injectors. I've taken injectors apart, manipulated the flow, and matched them myself on a bench. It was a part time gig, side work, but it paid for all my bad habits and toys. I made 10s of $1000s customizing injectors for specific applications like PWCs, RZRs, and Harleys. Not to mention high power street and race cars, and sold to reputable shops around the country. In fact, the most powerful Pro-Charged Harley ever built is running my injectors. Built by a shop in Michigan. Been on Magazine covers. 

I spent HOURS with engineers from Lucas, the guys who actually design injectors, and taught me the how's and whys of how things worked. I've done hands on dyno testing between carbs and injection. 

But you drove a car with injectors. That's nice. Don't go away mad, just go away.


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## jsup

tadawson said:


> Until we see EFI and a carb on the same displacement, it's going to be hard to compare. So far, I only see EFI on the bigger engines, so of course there will be more power . . . . just not necessarily due to the EFI . . .


I can tell you from first hand experience. A correctly tuned carb will make the same exact power as a correctly tuned fuel injected carb. UNLESS we are talking about direct injection which is a totally different animal. It has the advantage of handling both quantity AND timing, something Sequential or Batch fire MPI can't do.


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## jsup

crazzywolfie said:


> i think the same thing. injectors are not cheap new and are usually a bit of a pain to change especially if they have not moved in a while.
> 
> i can see the appeal of fuel injection for some but i personally don't see it for people that are willing to do some basic maintenance. most of the time it is generally just crud in the float bowl or a clogged jet. both are easily and quickly fixed. as far as fuel consumption goes i doubt a fuel injected engine will really get you much less fuel consumption. i have a feeling the OHV setup was the best thing to hit small engines as far as fuel consumption goes. i know the 250cc briggs engine on my new 26" snowblower is awesome on fuel and blows snow super good. i can do my entire neighbor hood on less than 1 tank of fuel. the 10.5hp on my other blower would burn thru a tank or 2 of fuel to move the same amount of snow.


Fuel Injection is the greatest thing, maybe second greatest thing, ever implemented on an internal combustion engine. But not for a machine like a snowblower.


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## jsup

drmerdp said:


> Im not totally sure what your argument is, but I agree carbs are not complicated.
> 
> Did anyone really think there wouldn’t be teething issues with a system like this. I’m saying there is a place in the market for it, and it’s not a bad thing.
> 
> There is a ton of efficiency that comes with electronically governed engine. iGX engines have this combined with a standard carburetor. LCT decided to use fuel injection, whatever.
> 
> Honda EU generators are an excellent example of how rock solid an electronicly governed engine can be.
> 
> 
> 
> Its clear you have limited experience you have with all this.
> 
> Injectors rarely gum up, And I’ve never seen one clog shut. 99.9 percent of the time, if I’m replacing injectors, it’s because for larger ones. For the record I recently did replace 4 on a troublesome f350 5.4 with 280000 miles on it.
> 
> The float bowl is always exposed to air, it has a vent on it.
> 
> Never said carbs are rocket science. I’m speaking for the perspective of someone who for starters, is not on an Outdoor Power Equipment forum. There’s a growing number that barely knows how to paint a room let diagnose fuel, spark, or compression and repair. Though YouTube is the saving grace for the many willing to try.
> 
> And awesome sites like this of course.
> 
> I work on classic cars with carburetors constantly, and EFI provides so much more then a carburetor can.
> 
> I was goofing with the battery size, but honestly didnt know exactly what type of battery the system needs to power the computer and prime the fuel system.
> 
> Googled..
> 
> So the battery is a nickel metal hydride at 7.2v ? Kinda Like a remote control car.
> 
> It would make sense to me to have the EFi system to paired with a 12v electric start setup like Honda uses.



One comment. The reason you don't see injectors fouling like carbs on a snowblower, is because, well, they're not a snowblower. 280,000 and it hasn't clogged, that's exactly the point. You used it every day, started it every day. Carbs don't go bad from daily use, they go bad from sitting, as will injectors. When you see bad ones on a flow bench, it becomes obvious. Let injectors sit 9 months in a shot, then be used well, in my case in NJ, once so far this year, there will be problems. 

A few posts back I put up two threads, where people are already having these problems with injectors. We used to keep the fluid we flow with in the injectors when on the shelf, to keep them "fresh". If they sat dry to long, they'd stick.


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## drmerdp

Solid point. Sitting unused is no good either way you swing it. One caveat though, I have 2 customers with deticated plow trucks that literally sit 9 months out of the year. One Chevy TBI, and one 4.0 wrangler. They are rats lol. Quite a few alternators, and plow parts, No fuel issues to speak of. Gasoline does well in the right conditions. Carburetors provide the ideal conditions for fuel to go bad, fast. Injectors can gum over long periods of time but, are in a sealed system, which gives little catalyst for for degradation.


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## jsup

drmerdp said:


> Solid point. Sitting unused is no good either way you swing it. One caveat though, I have 2 customers with deticated plow trucks that literally sit 9 months out of the year. One Chevy TBI, and one 4.0 wrangler. They are rats lol. Quite a few alternators, and plow parts, No fuel issues to speak of. Gasoline does well in the right conditions. Carburetors provide the ideal conditions for fuel to go bad, fast. Injectors can gum over long periods of time but, are in a sealed system, which gives little catalyst for for degradation.


Fuel injector degradation happens over time. You don't notice it. On a carb, you can move the choke, the ECU just compensates. The ECU on a car is far more complex than these little snowblower ECUs. These small ECUs are are basically running open loop all the time. They can't compensate for injectors that are working just 1/2 way, 1/3 way, 1/4 way. You can see this degradation on a flow bench. 

Also, with the slow degradation, and the ECU compensation, it's hard to tell if the injectors are operating at 100%. On a small open loop system, without those features, it's just degradation, and it will run worse, and people won't know why. 

One reason you want to see a duty cycle somewhere around 50%, is because the ecu can knock up the fuel delivery even if the injector is only 1/2 working. This requires an O2 sensor to do that. Who wants O2 sensors on a snowblower? MAP sensor? MAT? MAT? 

The implementation on a snowblower is basically an electronic carburetor.


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## tadawson

1132le said:


> what % of people can pull a carb and clean it? maybe 1 % ok maybe 5 % its very little
> Its easy you say
> it is if you know how to do it everything is easy after you know how
> I said i would keep the carb ( i cleaned mine twice since i got the blower they guy i got it from was a bad owner
> people throw blowers and lawn mowers away all the time most of the time you can clean the carb change the oil its good to go
> There is a power advantage to EFI i used one i could clearly feel it
> There are already 3rd party kits out in the 500 to 700 range to convert small engines
> it will only get cheaper and better in future years as it gets perfected
> just like it did to put it on old cars that came with carbs run a return line etc
> epa carbs are awfull it limits how good you can make a blower run without changing the jet or drilling the jet out
> temp changes the needs as well
> the efi blower does it for you the e gov response is borderline nasty good
> 90% or better my guess dont fix there own machine and cant so it goes to the dealer anyway
> bad owners cause most issues on small equipment and things in general then look for someone to blame
> Look at all the bad reviews you see online about things many times you can read the review and tell they are clueless and its there own fault


What percentage *could* pull and clean a carb? I'll wager 75 percent or better. How many are *willing* to try after reading all the myths and FUD is a much smaller number. Zero experience with carbs, and the ability to read at a 6th grade level (or better) and follow simple instructions is all it takes. These *are* simple, unlike complex auto carbs like a quadrajet . . . . the typical small engine carb has only one internal adjustment . . . and even the village idiot can tell if a hole is plugged or not.

And let's face it . . . a lot of manufacturers as well as the service trades have a financial incentive to scare folks away from doing thier own work . . .

Now, let's ask the next logical question. How many are willing to work on an EFI system with a controller that can be damaged to the tune of a cojple of hundred bucks from wiring errors or static discharge? The risks and costs are far higner on EFI . . .


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## drmerdp

jsup said:


> Fuel injector degradation happens over time. You don't notice it. On a carb, you can move the choke, the ECU just compensates. The ECU on a car is far more complex than these little snowblower ECUs. These small ECUs are are basically running open loop all the time. They can't compensate for injectors that are working just 1/2 way, 1/3 way, 1/4 way. You can see this degradation on a flow bench.
> 
> Also, with the slow degradation, and the ECU compensation, it's hard to tell if the injectors are operating at 100%. On a small open loop system, without those features, it's just degradation, and it will run worse, and people won't know why.
> 
> One reason you want to see a duty cycle somewhere around 50%, is because the ecu can knock up the fuel delivery even if the injector is only 1/2 working. This requires an O2 sensor to do that. Who wants O2 sensors on a snowblower? MAP sensor? MAT? MAT?
> 
> The implementation on a snowblower is basically an electronic carburetor.



Open loop systems can compensate as well. Not as precisely as closed loop but within reason. You don’t need an oxygen sensor to adjust fueling. We aren’t asking much from these engines. Maintain engine rpm regardless of load. 

These basic systems are constantly adjusting pulse width. Stihls m-tronic, Husqvarna autotune, Kawasaki EFI, all utilize open loop fuel adjustments with minimal feedback. Even motorcycles, and atvs use open loop systems. Obviously different executions but same principle.

Automobiles are usually sized for an 80% duty cycle based on full engine power. Better tune-ability for the varying loads cars operate under. 

I don’t dislike carburetors. I just see the potential in EFi, even if it’s on my stupid snowblower or lawnmower. lol


----------



## jsup

tadawson said:


> Until we see EFI and a carb on the same displacement, it's going to be hard to compare. So far, I only see EFI on the bigger engines, so of course there will be more power . . . . just not necessarily due to the EFI . . .


Engines are built to a spec. We need XX HP and YY TQ. Not to a displacement. If companies wanted to build an engine to a particular spec, it can be done regardless of fuel delivery.


----------



## jsup

drmerdp said:


> Open loop systems can compensate as well. Not as precisely as closed loop but within reason. You don’t need an oxygen sensor to adjust fueling. We aren’t asking much from these engines. Maintain engine rpm regardless of load.


Yes, I agree and I was going to get into that, but I figured people were tired of my rambling. 



> These basic systems are constantly adjusting pulse width. Stihls m-tronic, Husqvarna autotune, Kawasaki EFI, all utilize open loop fuel adjustments with minimal feedback. Even motorcycles, and atvs use open loop systems. Obviously different executions but same principle.


True. These systems are simpler and do not take advantage of everything EFI offers, and are essentially, in its most simplistic terms, is an electronic carburetor. They are married to the static map and can't deviate when needed. (in the same way a carb is limited to its design) The biggest advantage for EFI, is that it's an "intelligent" system, we're talking about "dumb" system on small engines.



> Automobiles are usually sized for an 80% duty cycle based on full engine power. Better tune-ability for the varying loads cars operate under.


True again. That's pretty much the industry standard, leaving 20% for wear, tear, and degradation. I'm talking about what I used to do, performance injectors for performance applications. When we sold stock replacements, it was just that. Many times I'd recommend upping the flow. For example, Chevy TPI Small block were 22 from the factory, I'd recommend 24 or 26 LB/HR. Ford had 19 LB/HR stock, I'd recommend 22. Less duty cycle is better. 

Exceeding 80% you starts getting into issues with the slew rate and such. May as well call it static. A little less duty cycle never hurt anything.



> I don’t dislike carburetors. I just see the potential in EFi, even if it’s on my stupid snowblower or lawnmower. lol


I don't dislike EFI. I love it. I just don't think this is the application for it. KISS (keep it simple stupid) works best here. My carbed engine, with correct maintenance, was sold after 18 years, with the original carb. 

I think the two threads I posted about EFI problems will be the tip of the iceberg, we'll see.


----------



## drmerdp

I’m kinda done with the rambling too.

It’s inaccurate to say these “dumb systems” are nothing more then an electronic carburetor. 

Sure there will likely be more threads with AX efi issues. New system, growing pains and what not. For early adopters Hopefully it’s not too bad. 

I look forward to the evolution and refinement of this technology in these applications.


----------



## jsup

Dumb in the respect of there is no feedback, sensors, to tell the computer what to do. No O2, MAP or MAF, CTS, or MAT. 

I'm done too. The future will tell, we'll see. I hope I'm wrong.


----------



## sscotsman

jsup said:


> I'm done too.


Good..im going to hold you to that promise.
Any further posts from you in this thread will be deleted.

Scot


----------



## Michael Smith

Yup I like mine 10x better than a choke, primer and carb. The dial is easy to use and if I don't have issues while it's under warranty I'll keep it. Changing a battery once in a while doesnt bother me if that's what is needed. Also I don't smell like a lawn mower or any other piece of equipment when I'm done using it.


----------



## New_HondaHS35

jsup said:


> Using something does not impart expertise.
> 
> 
> 
> So...you had a fuel injected car. That's nice.
> 
> I had a company that sold injectors. I sold custom flow injectors. I've taken injectors apart, manipulated the flow, and matched them myself on a bench. It was a part time gig, side work, but it paid for all my bad habits and toys. I made 10s of $1000s customizing injectors for specific applications like PWCs, RZRs, and Harleys. Not to mention high power street and race cars, and sold to reputable shops around the country. In fact, the most powerful Pro-Charged Harley ever built is running my injectors. Built by a shop in Michigan. Been on Magazine covers.
> 
> I spent HOURS with engineers from Lucas, the guys who actually design injectors, and taught me the how's and whys of how things worked. I've done hands on dyno testing between carbs and injection.
> 
> But you drove a car with injectors. That's nice. Don't go away mad, just go away.


You're being a jerk. Bosch and Denso are the main sources of fuel injectors in US cars.


----------



## IDEngineer

I _*just*_ went through this decision process. I ended up purchasing an Ariens Professional 32 - with old-school carburation and friction disk drivetrain. Why? Several reasons, but the biggest one was that if I'm in the middle of a snowstorm and the machine fails, I'm a lot more likely to fix it myself, with my tools, in timely manner, with a carb and friction disk than EFI and a Hydrostatic drivetrain where the standard answer is "Bring it in and we'll schedule it for service".


I like EFI for cars, trucks, ATV's, etc. where the price of failure is generally minor inconvenience. But snowblowers fail in the middle of snowstorms when the price of failure is _*extreme*_ inconvenience - like my son can't get to school, my wife can't get to the store, or I can't get to work.


BTW, it is for this reason that my new Ariens Professional 32 also came with a spare friction disk, three spare belts (one drive and the auger pair), and a pile of spare shear bolts. First thing I did when I got it home was open it up so I'm familiar with how to repair and replace things on this new machine _*before*_ I need to know how to do it in the middle of a snowstorm.


I don't move snow because I enjoy it. I move it because I have to. So I try to minimize the amount of time and headache I endure doing it. Best way I know to insure that is buy reliable equipment, take very good care of it, know how to work on it, and have common spare parts on hand. (And no, I don't accept that EFI systems can just let treated fuel sit in them for nine months out of the year. That's not my definition of "take very good care of it".)



YMMV, and others will come to different decisions, and that's totally OK. Just be aware of the tradeoffs you're making.


----------



## GeekOnTheHill

jsup said:


> Fuel Injection is the greatest thing, maybe second greatest thing, ever implemented on an internal combustion engine. But not for a machine like a snowblower.


I'm inclined to agree. EFI on an engine that runs at the same RPM and load 99.9 percent of the time seems like a solution in search of a problem to me. But hey, whatever floats your boat, I always say. If people want to spend more money for a complex solution to a simple problem, more power to them.

I used to pull and clean carburetors routinely, but I admit I haven't done it in years on any of my newer power equipment. I put an ounce of the marine flavor of STA-BIL in every five-gallon can of gas when I fill them, and shut the fuel shut-off valve and let the engine run out of gas between uses unless I'm going to be using it again that same day. 

At the end of the season, I mix a bit of whatever fuel system cleaner I have handy into whatever's left of the gas at roughly the correct proportion, run the machine until it runs the tank dry, drain the float bowl into a gas can, and store the machine away. Beyond that, I haven't needed to touch a carburetor in more than five years.

Once nice thing (maybe the only nice thing) about the EPA meddling in small engines is that the fuel systems are much better-sealed than they used to be. I think that's a big part of why I don't have to end each season with a carburetor R&R like I used to. Between the STA-BIL and the tighter fuel system, the gas just doesn't separate like it used to.

Richard


----------



## GeekOnTheHill

IDEngineer said:


> I _*just*_ went through this decision process. I ended up purchasing an Ariens Professional 32 - with old-school carburation and friction disk drivetrain. Why? Several reasons, but the biggest one was that if I'm in the middle of a snowstorm and the machine fails, I'm a lot more likely to fix it myself, with my tools, in timely manner, with a carb and friction disk than EFI and a Hydrostatic drivetrain where the standard answer is "Bring it in and we'll schedule it for service".
> 
> 
> I like EFI for cars, trucks, ATV's, etc. where the price of failure is generally minor inconvenience. But snowblowers fail in the middle of snowstorms when the price of failure is _*extreme*_ inconvenience - like my son can't get to school, my wife can't get to the store, or I can't get to work.
> 
> 
> BTW, it is for this reason that my new Ariens Professional 32 also came with a spare friction disk, three spare belts (one drive and the auger pair), and a pile of spare shear bolts. First thing I did when I got it home was open it up so I'm familiar with how to repair and replace things on this new machine _*before*_ I need to know how to do it in the middle of a snowstorm.
> 
> 
> I don't move snow because I enjoy it. I move it because I have to. So I try to minimize the amount of time and headache I endure doing it. Best way I know to insure that is buy reliable equipment, take very good care of it, know how to work on it, and have common spare parts on hand. (And no, I don't accept that EFI systems can just let treated fuel sit in them for nine months out of the year. That's not my definition of "take very good care of it".)
> 
> 
> 
> YMMV, and others will come to different decisions, and that's totally OK. Just be aware of the tradeoffs you're making.


I feel the same way. Absent some truly worthwhile improvement in functionality, I'll always opt for the systems I can fix myself, in my basement, with ordinary hand tools, to a machine that requires me to schlep it to a service center and wait for someone to fix it.

Husqvarna (or maybe it was Synchrony) sent me an email pitching their ST330P blower yesterday. Looks like a nice machine and gets mostly good reviews. Lists for $1,899.95, and my local dealer usually discounts a bit for me or throws in some freebies because I've sent them new customers.

The thing is, the ST330P has the hydrostatic transmission, which I guess is nice, but which I doubt I could fix in my basement in the middle of the night with a few wrenches and a cup of coffee. Changing a belt or a friction wheel, on the other hand, is a no-brainer (albeit a minor pain in the knuckles).

What the hyrdrostatic delivers is infinitely-variable speed rather than having to choose from six gear ratios. I just don't think that's a significant-enough advantage to justify the added complexity and the longer downtime should I have a problem with it. But hey, to each his own.

Richard


----------



## Ariens hydro pro

I don't understand EFI. Also since I need an on-board battery to start it, it's something I won't be able to fix in a snow storm if it stops running. Seems complicated to need a battery to even start it...more to break, more to worry about.

A shovel hanging in the garage is not my idea of fun. Too much to clean. 
No way I would ever buy a EFI blower. Heck I would refuse it if they gave it to me!


----------



## Mountain Man

I really think id like to at least try an efi. I bought a Briggs Vanguard lawnmower with EFI, its great since it runs spot on in summer, and starts easily nowmthat temps are in 30's

Have to see if any CT members are in central Ct with efi.


----------



## broo

I never had any problems with either carburetors or fuel injection on the cars I had over the years. Both these devices are a mystery to me, I wouldn't know how to fix either one and so far never had to.



If fuel injection on smaller engines improves efficiency and reduces emissions, I'm all for it. However, if it's more expensive, I'd check how much more efficient it is to see if the payback is worth the higher sticker price.


Just like electric cars. I'm eager to get one for my daily commute, but they are way too expensive right now. I'll keep my obsolete gas sipper thank you.


----------



## rslifkin

EFI will definitely be somewhat more complicated than the pretty primitive carbs most small engines use. But at the same time, if it ends up being significantly more reliable, the extra complication is probably a worthwhile tradeoff. 

As far as the battery thing, I'd rather see them use a standard 12v lawn tractor battery and not the special NiMH batteries they're using currently. That would let them make it battery start, plus it would allow it to be jump started just the same as a car if the battery were dead.


----------



## Mountain Man

About the battery. In the late 90's on, Arctic Cat snowmobiles used Batteryless EFI. It was there big selling point. First pull would charge the system, and second pull and it would start. My buddy had a 800 twin with EFI, and it was great ! 

Maybe I should send that info to Ariens 😉


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## tadawson

Ultimately, mechanically EFI should be far simpler than a carb. Throttle butterfly, injector nozzle, done . . . No choke/float/needle/jets/emulsifier/etc. etc. etc. All the complexiy is in the electronics, which are not moving wear parts, as in a carb. Even with the additional mechanical part count, small engine carbs are about as difficult to understand as a couple of rocks, and typically about as easy to work on. They also typically degrade slowly giving an idea that a problem is coming well in advance of failing to work. EFI electronics (like most electronics) are basically perfect or dead, with very little warning of impending failure. If the EFI module was cheap enough to keep a spare on hand, I think it would be both the easiest to service as well as most reliable. If not, not much you can do if the module bricks othen than hope someone has one in stock locally, as opposed to carbs that rarely require much in the way of parts to get running again (but perhaps to get back to perfect . . .). But then again, if the design is good, much like on cars, the electronics will likely be a very rare failure, leaving not much more than a failed injector or crap in the systems as primary issues.

Tough call, not knowing the costs. The battery, though, really doesn't concern me much, since it charges while running, iirc.


----------



## Dusty

I think that in another 20 years all small engine power equipment will be efi. A lot of it battery powered as well.
Their are a few reasons I believe that will be the case, first they want to raise the ethanol levels in our fuel. Their already talking about raising the minimum to 15%. What level will it be in 20 years? They say the small carbureted engine really cant handle more than 10%.
Also because it will be more fuel efficient and cut down even further on emissions.
But in another 20 years, who knows, half the snow belt, may not need large snow blowers anymore, the way were going.
Also has anyone seen videos of the GIE expo this year. Everything was about battery power. That was the big thing this year. For instance the new Ariens-Gravely battery powered commercial zero turn. But the entire show was battery power. Clearly all the manufacturers are going that direction. 
I think their will come a day when you wont have a choice, carbs will be phased out like they were on cars and over time, the old carbureted equipment will become dinosaurs. Its something to think about.
One other thing, since that is the case, why doesn't Briggs come out with their own efi winter engine?
On the Ariens its that other brand that offers the efi, its LCT right?
Thats my opinion on the topic. I like my small carbureted engine's, the flat heads are my favorite, don't get me wrong, but these new technologies are starting to take hold.


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## 132619

thanks to CA's carb rules it's way closer than you think dusty. 

EFI and cat convertors on all small engines is just a few years off, 
right now we are in what's called phase 3 of the rules that pertain to the fuel vapors. https://www.epa.gov/regulations-emi...s/regulations-emissions-small-equipment-tools
so we have we already have machines with roll over valves, gas tank vapor canisters , pcv's, phase 4 is not far off so many companies are taking a jump and IMM basicly real world testing of whats known as small displacement spark ignition engines and small off road engines 
2020 CA rules will tighten even more with many states following CA in a monkey see,monkey do, meaning states like NJ.NY,MASS and 10 others that use CA rules making ca emission specs mandatory. meaning EFI or a big battery. https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/index.php/our-work/programs/small-off-road-engines


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## russ01915

Dusty said:


> But in another 20 years, who knows, half the snow belt, may not need large snow blowers anymore, the way were going.


Three short years ago , we set all kinds of snowfall records in Boston. What are you talking about?


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## 132619

one more link to help understand the new rules 

https://pressurewashr.com/what-is-carb-compliant/

https://opereviews.com/news/the-advantages-of-efi-for-small-engines/


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## russ01915

EFI systems should have a 12v system on board which includes key start. Put some LED lights on the blower while they are at it. I'll wait a bit before I put my toes in the water. I'll wait and see what the experience of others have to say.


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## Dusty

russ01915 said:


> EFI systems should have a 12v system on board which includes key start. Put some LED lights on the blower while they are at it. I'll wait a bit before I put my toes in the water. I'll wait and see what the experience of others have to say.


I would rather have a small lithuim ion battery power it, than a big 12 volt battery, like for a lawn tractor, thats a lot of extra weight to have to lug around, unless your suggesting some kind of small light weight 12 volt battery.


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## Dusty

33 woodie said:


> thanks to CA's carb rules it's way closer than you think dusty.
> 
> EFI and cat convertors on all small engines is just a few years off,
> right now we are in what's called phase 3 of the rules that pertain to the fuel vapors. https://www.epa.gov/regulations-emi...s/regulations-emissions-small-equipment-tools
> so we have we already have machines with roll over valves, gas tank vapor canisters , pcv's, phase 4 is not far off so many companies are taking a jump and IMM basicly real world testing of whats known as small displacement spark ignition engines and small off road engines
> 2020 CA rules will tighten even more with many states following CA in a monkey see,monkey do, meaning states like NJ.NY,MASS and 10 others that use CA rules making ca emission specs mandatory. meaning EFI or a big battery. https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/index.php/our-work/programs/small-off-road-engines


Thanks for sharing that, I didn't realize the mandatory requirements were that close. I did also notice the Briggs Quantum L head also stopped being sold just last year. That was the last of the flat head engines. I'm in NJ and a few things are a pain here. It's practically impossible to get ethanol free gas in this state. I have to cross over into PA if I want it for a reasonable price.
I know exactly what you mean about those new gas container's and they are a pain to use. So I have held onto a bunch of older easy to use ones with no vapor locks. My favorite one is an older round metal 5 gallon eagle gas container, the handle is made to pull the cap up as you pour and it has a removable funnel on the front of it. It is really easy and convenient to use. I got that container recently and I hope it lasts a long time. It must be a 30 year old gas can.
I think the vapor lock container's are stupid, their difficult to use and it also makes it easier to spill gas.


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## RedOctobyr

Dusty said:


> My favorite one is an older round metal 5 gallon eagle gas container, the handle is made to pull the cap up as you pour and it has a removable funnel on the front of it. ... It must be a 30 year old gas can.


 You can still buy those, in different sizes. I bought mine a few years ago, I think it's great. Easy to use and pour, and it seals up really well. Even leaving it in the car all day during the summer, you would barely smell gas fumes. 

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Eagle-5-Gallon-Metal-Gasoline-Can/1136093


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## russ01915

Dusty said:


> I would rather have a small lithuim ion battery power it, than a big 12 volt battery, like for a lawn tractor, thats a lot of extra weight to have to lug around, unless your suggesting some kind of small light weight 12 volt battery.


Small 12v battery is 17 lbs. Plus you have key start, and if the battery is located on the bucket, it acts like a weight kit.


----------



## Dusty

russ01915 said:


> Small 12v battery is 17 lbs. Plus you have key start, and if the battery is located on the bucket, it acts like a weight kit.


Thats good when you need the extra weight, the rest of the time your just lugging around extra weight. I saw it on one of the older Pro Ariens. I wouldn't want that battery on their. I like blowers that have the attachable sand bags or bolt on steel, when you need the weight, put it on, when you don't most of the time take it off.
If your doing snow removal and you have that big battery on the blower and you need to lug the blower on and off a pickup with ramps, thats added straight. Now one of those little small 12 volt batteries you can put behind the dash, like they use on walj vehind mowers would be perfect.


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## Dusty

russ01915 said:


> Small 12v battery is 17 lbs. Plus you have key start, and if the battery is located on the bucket, it acts like a weight kit.


Its a preference, I would want something small and lightweight, I could stick behind the dash.
They aren't very small. I have to lug those inside for the winter off my tractors. Thats good when you need the extra weight, the rest of the time your just lugging around extra weight putting more strain on yourself. I saw it on one of the older Pro Ariens. I wouldn't want that battery on their. I like blowers that have the attachable sand bags or bolt on steel weights, thats what their made for, when you need the weight, put it on, when you don't, most of the time take it off. The batteries primary purpose is for the starter, no reason to have a tractor battery mounted to a blower, its bulky and heavy.
If your doing snow removal and you have that big battery on the blower and you need to lug the blower on and off a pickup with ramps, thats added strain you don't need, its added strain in general. Now one of those little small 12 volt batteries you can put behind the dash, like they use on walk behind mowers would be perfect, it makes sense. I don't understand why more blowers don't use it for 12 volt portable electric start wherever you need. Lawn mowers and pressure washers offer it, why don't snowblowers? Perfect for those in the snow removal business who don't have access to a 120 volt outlet.


----------



## Dusty

RedOctobyr said:


> You can still buy those, in different sizes. I bought mine a few years ago, I think it's great. Easy to use and pour, and it seals up really well. Even leaving it in the car all day during the summer, you would barely smell gas fumes.
> 
> https://www.lowes.com/pd/Eagle-5-Gallon-Metal-Gasoline-Can/1136093


Wow, I didn't know they still offered those type cans. Thanks for the info and link, I'm buying another one while you still can. 👍


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## russ01915

Dusty said:


> Now one of those little small 12 volt batteries you can put behind the dash, like they use on walj vehind mowers would be perfect.


The cold weather would wipe out those batteries. Also , those small batteries don't have the amps to crank over a larger engine. I snow blow professionally and I have a Ariens 32" Pro hydro with 12v start. It's a pleasure to turn the key and start the engine at each job. The best part, you can bring a jumper pack to start it if the battery fails.


----------



## Dusty

russ01915 said:


> The cold weather would wipe out those batteries. Also , those small batteries don't have the amps to crank over a larger engine. I snow blow professionally and I have a Ariens 32" Pro hydro with 12v start. It's a pleasure to turn the key and start the engine at each job. The best part, you can bring a jumper pack to start it if the battery fails.


So do I, its a preference. I wouldn't want that big battery on a blower. I would keep a small spare one in the truck where it stays warm when needed and were talking theoretically if/when it comes down to only blowers with efi that need a battery to start. Its so easy to pull a rope one time and be on your way. If your engines been maintained its all it should take 1, 2 pulls tops on choke primed. Its not difficult, it takes all of 3 seconds. It beats lugging one of those big batteries around. I cant justify having one of those big batteries on a blower for a simple procedure that takes 3 seconds. Its more trouble than its worth between maintaining that battery, spending money on another one when that one dies and all that extra weight. If you like having a sore back and knees and having your body start breaking down later in life, by all means, go with a big battery with another 17 pounds to have to lug around, no thank you. Its a preference. The cold takes its toll on those batteries as well, thats why I take them off my tractor and put them in the basement over the winter and just doing that is a choir to me with everything else going on. The alternator on the engine should keep a small 12 volt battery charged just as well as a big 17 pounder when in continuous use. You should only have to put a charge to it after its sat ahwile and their so small and inexpensive having a spare in the truck isnt an issue. That would seem like the way to go to me. It's a preference. You like the bigger one, that's fine.


----------



## 1132le

Dusty said:


> So do I, its a preference. I wouldn't want that big battery on a blower. I would keep a small spare one in the truck where it stays warm when needed and were talking theoretically if/when it comes down to only blowers with efi that need a battery to start. Its so easy to pull a rope one time and be on your way. If your engines been maintained its all it should take 1, 2 pulls tops on choke primed. Its not difficult, it takes all of 3 seconds. It beats lugging one of those big batteries around. I cant justify having one of those big batteries on a blower for a simple procedure that takes 3 seconds. Its more trouble than its worth between maintaining that battery, spending money on another one when that one dies and all that extra weight. If you like having a sore back and knees and having your body start breaking down later in life, by all means, go with a big battery with another 17 pounds to have to lug around, no thank you. Its a preference. The cold takes its toll on those batteries as well, thats why I take them off my tractor and put them in the basement over the winter and just doing that is a choir to me with everything else going on. The alternator on the engine should keep a small 12 volt battery charged just as well as a big 17 pounder when in continuous use. You should only have to put a charge to it after its sat ahwile and their so small and inexpensive having a spare in the truck isnt an issue. That would seem like the way to go to me. It's a preference. You like the bigger one, that's fine.



You better sell your simplicity 870 then if you are worried about your knees and back
my st824 weighs 240 lbs the 870 looks stouter and it's 4 inches wider 260 265 lbs a fair guess also has no steering
30 efi aliens 259 lbs 276 with battery but has auto turn turns on a dime easy to manage
my 28 inch auto turn ariens 414cc 260 lbs give or take a couple lbs much easier to handle then the st824 and i have a bad back


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## snowman123

I bought one about a month a go but so far no snow. I gave my old Ariens ST 1028 to my daughter. If you didn't use the electric start you had to pull crank it for a bit. The new EFI just a half a pull, I'll take that any day. The one change I need to make is adding a fuel filter with a shut off other than I won't make any excuses I've read on why not to get one.


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## russ01915

Dusty said:


> / Its so easy to pull a rope one time and be on your way. If your engines been maintained its all it should take 1, 2 pulls tops on choke primed. Its not difficult, it takes all of 3 seconds. .


It's a lot easier to turn the key. By the way , all my machines all start in 1 or 2 pulls. My advice to you, you shouldn't buy a machine with a battery. It's not for you. But for me, I'm loving it. I wish you all the best.


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## Dusty

Thanks, likewise. 👍


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## bbwb

My new Ariens has the EFI, I like it as said above it starts on half a pull. The only thing I do not like is the dinky fuel tank, come on Ariens, two quarts on a professional machine???


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## 132619

thats both LCt and Powermore and maybe a few more , 2 skinny Qt's in place of the gallon we love


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## broo

Is the smaller fuel tank due to increased engine efficiency ? Or maybe, due to the added engine size due to battery/efi system, they reduced the tank size in order to reduce the bulkiness of the machine ?


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## wxman2003

I think I will stick with my carbed Ariens over the EFI. My first Ariens snowblower lasted 26 years before I sold it and never had an issue. Left fuel in it through the summer. All I did before putting it away for the season was change the plug, drain and replace the oil and lube the parts. I also would start it up, followed by closing the fuel valve and letting it run until it stopped. The next winter, opened the valve, 2 pumps of the primer, and it always would start on the 1st or 2nd pull.


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## Niraj KP

bbwb said:


> My new Ariens has the EFI, I like it as said above it starts on half a pull. The only thing I do not like is the dinky fuel tank, come on Ariens, two quarts on a professional machine???


A possible mis-calculation on their engineering department.. they thought it would sip the fuel vs guzzle the fuel. I personally think EFI snowblower is more of a gimmick.. I stuck to the old tech.. Carb only, easy to fix, parts readily available. I think if enough people complain in the unit, they would offer a larger tank on the unit.. my 32 pro rapid trak has a 5.9 liter or 1.2 gallon tank.. I can't image why not offer teh same tank as other pro machines.


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## GoBlowSnow

but that's the thing, not enough people are going to complain about it.


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## shrike64

*My experience with my Ariens Deluxe 30 EFI so far...*

I've had my Ariens Deluxe 30 EFI for just over a year now, and I figured I'd share my experiences so far:

I live in central Maine, and we got a lot of snow last winter, and the snowblower ran great, and handled everything but the wettest snow well. It even does okay with most wet snow, but if there isn't enough there, it does have a bit of trouble with it, but I suspect that's true with most snowblowers. But with pretty much everything else, this thing is a beast, and does a **** of a job.

Unfortunately, this winter has been a different story (and perfectly illustrates the concerns I had about an EFI engine.) A few days before our first storm of the season was forecast, I went out and fueled up the snowblower, and gave a light tug on the starter (that's generally all it takes to start it) and there was no signs of life. Then I remembered the EFI battery, and went in search of the charger (I hadn't had to use it the previous season, because the dealer charged it before I picked it up.) My wife finally found the charger, and I charged it overnight, then the next day I went to try again. Still nothing, and now we were only a couple of days out from the first storm. I verified that I was getting spark, and that I wasn't getting fuel to the cylinder, and tried to figure out where the problem was. Gas wasn't getting to the injector, and I figured out that the problem was the fuel pump. It was completely dead. I don't know what happened over the summer, but it was dead. I looked up the price of the pump online (a bit over $100) and decided to just swap it out myself since I don't have a truck or a trailer to get the blower to my dealer, and there was a storm coming, figuring I'd have it up and running in a couple of hours. Only problem was that they didn't have the pump in stock, and were surprised that there was a problem with it. They had to order the pump, but fortunately the upcoming storm ended up petering out and it ended up being no big deal to shovel it by hand.

When the part came in, it turned out I was right, and it only took a couple hours, and I was back in business. It ran great for a month or so, but then towards the end of cleaning up after a small snowstorm, it started sputtering a bit, but I didn't think much of it, thinking I was out of gas (it was dark and I figured I'd double check it the next day.) When I checked, I still had over half a tank of gas, which made me a little nervous, but I topped off the tank and fired it up. It started right up, but if I put the throttle much above the half-way mark, the engine would start to run rough, speeding up and slowing down at random, and throwing a bit of black smoke when it slowed. This time, I wasn't going to screw around with it, and rented a trailer to haul the thing back to the dealer to let them deal with it.

I had talked to the service manager, and even shared a quick video of what the snowblower was doing, and said he was 99% sure there was just some kind of blockage and that they would take a look at that. He said that if that was the issue, it wouldn't be covered under warranty, but I figured if that was the case, it would be a fairly easy fix, and I didn't mind paying for that. When I hadn't heard anything back for a couple of days, I figured I'd check, and it turned out they had to order some parts. Well, at least that should be covered under warranty. A couple more days, and still no word, so I checked with the Service Manager again, and they had gotten one of the parts, but the other had been on backorder, but had now been shipped, but he didn't have an ETA. He didn't volunteer what parts had been ordered, and when I contacted him to ask, he'd left for the day, so I still don't know. There isn't much that could be causing these symptoms (fuel pump, fuel filter, fuel injector or the ECU), so the list of suspects is pretty small. But, with a storm coming this weekend that's predicted to bring as much as 2 to 3 feet of snow, it is looking like I'll be dealing with that without my very expensive snowblower.

I'll post an update with more information once I know more, but I did want to share my experience with this snowblower so far. At this point, if I had it to do all over again, I definitely wouldn't have gone for the EFI, but we'll see what happens while it is still under warranty. Don't get me wrong, when this thing is working it is a fantastic snowblower, but the reason I bought such a big (and expensive) snowblower was so that when we have a storm like they are predicting for this weekend, I could smile and look forward to it, rather than to dread it.


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## RIT333

Sorry to hear about your troubles, but thanks for sharing and warning others
Sounds like EFI might not be ready for prime time.


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## bkwudz

that stinks, I went back and forth for a while on whether to get EFI or not, in the end i did not because the more i looked at it and thought about it, i just didn't see the need on these little engines. Too much complexity for something that should be kept simple!


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## russ01915

I think the biggest hurdle is Ariens training the dealers to diagnose and service the EFi machines. Time will tell if it is indeed ready for prime time.


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## Snowbelt_subie

bkwudz said:


> that stinks, I went back and forth for a while on whether to get EFI or not, in the end i did not because the more i looked at it and thought about it, i just didn't see the need on these little engines. Too much complexity for something that should be kept simple!



yes i agree... while i think they can be efficient and reliable in time. but just like any type of new models of equipment/ machinery , cars ect. it usually takes a year or 2 to figure out the bugs and problems.

i would say within 3 years they should have all the problems worked out of small engine EFI.


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## barney

drmerdp said:


> Solid point. Sitting unused is no good either way you swing it. One caveat though, I have 2 customers with deticated plow trucks that literally sit 9 months out of the year. One Chevy TBI, and one 4.0 wrangler. They are rats lol. Quite a few alternators, and plow parts, No fuel issues to speak of. Gasoline does well in the right conditions. *Carburetors provide the ideal conditions for fuel to go bad, fast*. Injectors can gum over long periods of time but, are in a sealed system, which gives little catalyst for for degradation.


Interesting thread. For my own clarification/understanding and generally speaking are you referring to all gas or ethanol gas?


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## tadawson

I dunno . . . the more I read on the EFI, it's bonehead simple. The big issue is more likely dealers not stocking parts . . . . Ultimately, there would appear to be far less to go wrong in the EFI, at least as I see it. . . .


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## bbwb

I have to admit, I chose to be a guinea pig and went with the EFI this fall with my purchase. I so far am impressed with the power and ease of starting. I am not so much of a fan of relying on the battery and an electric fuel pump to make it go...but....???
As I have complained in my other posts, Arien's blew it with the dinky 2 quart fuel tank on the 420cc engine. Stupid, stupid, stupid.
I hope that the decision to go EFI won't come back to bite me down the road.
Robert


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## drmerdp

barney said:


> Interesting thread. For my own clarification/understanding and generally speaking are you referring to all gas or ethanol gas?


Applies to all gas. Carbuerators are vented to atmosphere. Being exposed to air as opposed to sealed in a tank accelerates degradation.


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## shrike64

The thought that the dealers are not stocking parts yet is probably a good one, and I think that is definitely contributing to the delays in getting my blower repaired. The part that was backordered ended up being the throttle body, but when that finally showed up, that part didn't fix it either (I still don't know that the other part they tried replacing ended up being, but it must not have been the problem either.) Yesterday afternoon when I checked with them, they told me they had tried replacing the throttle body, and since that hadn't worked, they were going to have to resort to contacting tech support to try to figure out what to try next. I'm guessing they will have to order yet more parts, so I'm not holding my breath on getting it back any time this week. 



Well, if nothing else, it makes me feel a little bit better about not trying to figure this issue out on my own, and I will definitely note what they end up doing. There should still be a couple of years left on the warranty... hopefully I'll have a machine that's been working long enough that I feel confident in keeping it after the warranty runs out. When it is running well, it is a great snow blower, but reliability is just as important, and at the moment I just don't feel like I can trust this thing.


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## RedOctobyr

Wow, that's a bummer, sorry. Carbs are by no means perfect. But at least if you remove one, and install a replacement, that should probably take care of a fuel-related issue. EFI sounds cool, but these sorts of reports from owners are interesting, and educational, thanks.


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## tadawson

Interesting in that the Ariens manual pretty clearly states that surging is typically due to loss of the tachometer signal (in this case, output from the alternator) . . . seems like checking that first before throwing parts at it might have been a good plan for the dealer . . .


Sounds like they are working on it with the same set of assumptions one would make with a carb and a mechanical governor, which do not apply on the EFI engine . . .


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## tabora

I think that EFI should probably be reserved for blowers that already have an on-board battery for electric starting purposes. Then its just like any other fuel-injected vehicle...


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## tadawson

Nah, the battery for the ECU should be more than adequate . . . it just plain doesn't need that much . . . Overkill rarely helps . . .


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## shrike64

Well, I'm happy to report that, I finally got my snowblower back this weekend, just in time for a bit of snow tonight and tomorrow. I ran it a bit Saturday, and so far, so good. The problem ended up being the ECU. I hope they get to hang on to the parts that were ordered so they can use them for troubleshooting the next one of these that comes in. I'm not terribly impressed that they had to wait through at least a couple of rounds of ordering parts to finally get to the bottom of the issue. I don't know if it is true, but they also said that a guy from Ariens came up to help them figure out the issue. Hopefully there aren't any further issues, but I did want to let you guys know what the problem ended up being. I do like the fact that Ariens makes the parts and repair manuals available online, so that if I want to work on this thing myself after it is out of warranty, I have access to the troubleshooting info. Hopefully there won't be any more issues with this, but at least I've got almost a couple more years left on the warranty (and this repair was fully covered by the warranty.)


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## ohanyan1

I picked up a Pro 28 Hydro EFI a few weeks ago, after selling a Honda track machine.

It is truly a joy to use so far. The engine does not put out any noticeable smoke or odor, starts on one easy pull and is very smooth and quiet. Time will tell and Iâ€™️d like to get an extra battery to have on hand in-case I need it.

The hydro on this machine is the real joy. You can crawl and speeds much lower than a gear drive machine when you hit the end of driveway stuff and the transition from forward to reverse is seamless.

Iâ€™️ve owned many machines over the years and will be interested in the longevity of both the EFI and hydro components. First impressions are very good though.


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## ST1100A

Sounds like they couldn't keep the parts in stock due to them being all used up so fast with a lot of the problems people were having with them. The manufacturer didn't expect so many failures that they had and didn't make enough replacement parts to supply the demand for them. It takes time to see the failure rate before they stock up on the expensive parts and have them sit on a shelf to go bad while sitting.
Hopefully the realized the problem and have a lot of the extra parts in stock now for the upcoming season, as they will be bombarded with replacement part orders now that the season is upon us.
It was a new design machine that has not been out long enough to stand the "Test of Time" yet.
Give it a few more years to work out all the "Bugs" and proove itself, then you might be safe with it for longevity.


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## ohanyan1

ST1100A said:


> Sounds like they couldn't keep the parts in stock due to them being all used up so fast with a lot of the problems people were having with them. The manufacturer didn't expect so many failures that they had and didn't make enough replacement parts to supply the demand for them. It takes time to see the failure rate before they stock up on the expensive parts and have them sit on a shelf to go bad while sitting.
> Hopefully the realized the problem and have a lot of the extra parts in stock now for the upcoming season, as they will be bombarded with replacement part orders now that the season is upon us.
> It was a new design machine that has not been out long enough to stand the "Test of Time" yet.
> Give it a few more years to work out all the "Bugs" and proove itself, then you might be safe with it for longevity.


Which problems? What parts? Which bugs?


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## ST1100A

ohanyan1 said:


> Which problems? What parts? Which bugs?


Most of it having to do with the EFI system. Fuel pumps, ECU modules, batteries and everything else related to the EFI systems that are being replaced due to failures.
It is a new system that has not been out that long so there is not a whole lot of experience with it yet for the technicians and owners who have to troubleshoot and repair them.
That's why it needs more time to be prooven and for experience of problems with it to make it much easier and quicker for troubleshooting and repairs.
Right now they are replacing just about everything to make them run again, it is not perfected yet, almost a "Hit and Miss" that will take some time for people to get enough experience with the machine.
Right now an owner is at the "Guinea Pig Stage" with them, experimenting with the machine to see how it works and holds up, and what types of problems may develop with them so they can work out all the bugs with them, just like an automobile when something new comes out into the market.
It is a more complicated and expensive system than the carbureted system that can be fixed much easier and quicker at a much lower cost. The advantages of it are not that much over a carbureted system to really justify the added costs of the system at present.
I am not saying to not buy them, it just has to be out there for a longer time to get everything worked out and improved more before I would consider making a switch over to that system. When a machine breaks down, it has to be back up and running as quickly as possible with as little downtime as possible waiting for replacement parts.
Most carburetors can be repaired easily and much less cost where the EFI system parts are Non Serviceable and require replacement at a higher cost and longer downtime waiting for the parts because of the costs, most places will not stock the very expensive parts to sit on the shelf waiting to be sold. That is money out of the shops pocket. Carburetor parts are much less expensive to keep in stock and are much more common replacement items to stock so they wont sit on the shelf as long.


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