# Taking your machine to the dealer for service



## beardown34 (Jan 22, 2014)

What's your thought on taking your snowthrower to the dealer for service? Should I just hand in my man-card now? Should I just lay my nuts down on the ground feed them through the auger of my snowthrower?

I got my Toro Power Max 826 OE off Craigslist mid-season this year. It was bought in 2010 but was sitting covered in a warehouse with old gas, and I'm guessing it hadn't been used in at least one year. Well it started on the first pull and worked fine for me all season (until one shear pin broke on the last storm of the season in heavy wet snow). It would surge badly on anything other than full choke, so I was expecting it needed a carb clean. 

In preparing for off season storage, I read through the boards here and decided to give it a go myself. I'm not a mechanically inclined person. I dropped the carb bowl and sprayed the bowl and nut with Gumout carb and choke cleaner. The nut did not have any holes in it, unlike the one in my previous single stage machine. I took out the float and shook it around -- no sloshing. I sprayed up into the two holes visible from the underside of the carb -- the one that the needle sits in, and the fuel inlet (I think). Put everything back together and let it sit overnight because at that point it was late and I didn't want to wake up the kids.

The next morning I went to turn the machine on, so I could warm up the oil prior to draining it and adding new oil ... and now the engine turns but won't start. You've gotta be kidding me. I dropped the bowl again, and realized that even with the fuel shutoff valve OPEN, there was no gas coming out. I took off the float and sprayed into both holes visible from the underside of the carb again and then followed up with compressed air. Put everything back together, and now I could see gas coming down. Tried starting the machine again, and now it starts, but only runs on choke, and even still, it surges and then shut itself off -- behaving as if it was out of gas, even though there was still plenty of gas in the tank.

At this point I'm still guessing it's the carb that's the problem. However, I have no comfort level in taking out the carb, and even less so taking it apart once its out. I checked with my local dealer. They said a full carb tear down and cleaning is included with their annual tune-up package. So is a new spark plug and lube to all the necessary areas. 

For *me* (I realize not for many of you, whose posts I've read and can tell you are VERY mechanically inclined), this is a reasonable pill to swallow to keep an expensive machine in good order. I wouldn't pay that fee for my much less expensive single stage, or my basic lawn mower -- I'll just do some basic maintenance on those, and if the machine dies, I suspect I'll just find an adequate replacement on craigslist. But for this $$$ dual stage machine, I think it's worth it. Hopefully after I get a professional carb cleaning this time, I won't need another professional cleaning for a long while, by using Stabil-ized gas and draining the gas at the end of every season. 

Anyways, just curious if anyone on this board fesses up to paying for a professional tune-up, or if most of you just take care of it on your own.


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## dbert (Aug 25, 2013)

You could consider buying a new carb, possibly for less that having some shop rebuild your original one, and you get to keep your man card.
Just a thought.
Example.
Will need to verify part number.
Amazon.com: Oregon 50-659 Carburetor Replacement for Tecumseh 640349: Patio, Lawn & Garden

Wait, the OE is a briggs engine?


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## Marty013 (Mar 14, 2014)

at the end of the day.. I think we all baught snowblowers for one thing... peace of mind.. if dealer mintenance does that for you.. then go for it


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## beardown34 (Jan 22, 2014)

dbert said:


> You could consider buying a new carb, possibly for less that having some shop rebuild your original one, and you get to keep your man card.
> Just a thought.
> Example.
> Will need to verify part number.
> ...


Yes Briggs engine. 

I know I could buy the part for cheaper. But I can't fathom pulling the old one out and putting a new one in myself. Then I'd be at the dealer's doorstep anyways. If someone on this board lived nearby I guess I could consider just paying them to do it, but obviously part of what you pay for with an authorized Toro repair is the warranty of the work.


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## dbert (Aug 25, 2013)

True
While some of us cringe at the thought of paying someone that much for a "tune-up", it does come with some piece of mind.


> Hopefully after I get a professional carb cleaning this time, I won't need another professional cleaning for a long while, by using Stabil-ized gas and draining the gas at the end of every season.


This makes the decision easier.


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## beardown34 (Jan 22, 2014)

dbert said:


> True
> While some of us cringe at the thought of paying someone that much for a "tune-up", it does come with some piece of mind.
> 
> This makes the decision easier.


What made up my mind was hearing that they actually take the carb apart for a full clean. Sure they could be blowing smoke up my a$$ but this is the biggest Toro dealer around here so I am inclined to believe them.


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## dbert (Aug 25, 2013)

beardown34 said:


> Yes Briggs engine.
> 
> I know I could buy the part for cheaper. But I can't fathom pulling the old one out and putting a new one in myself. Then I'd be at the dealer's doorstep anyways. If someone on this board lived nearby I guess I could consider just paying them to do it, but obviously part of what you pay for with an authorized Toro repair is the warranty of the work.


Sorry, we were posting at the same time.
I was saying that dealing with the intricate and delicate gadjets inside the carburetor vs unbolting one and bolting on another is something that are very different skill sets.
You have a nice blower. Let the dealer fix it.


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## AverageJoe (Feb 19, 2014)

Also if you opt for option #2 Beardown, make sure your augers are as clean as possible!


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## beardown34 (Jan 22, 2014)

AverageJoe said:


> Also if you opt for option #2 Beardown, make sure your augers are as clean as possible!


Sorry, which one is option #2? I don't know what you mean.


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## UNDERTAKER (Dec 30, 2013)

do u have a neighbor or buddy that can do the carb work. and in exchange you can do something they can not. in those toro's there are no BLOODY SHEER PINS in them. I would need pics or vid's to help you on that problem. I have my jet mechanic next door neighbor do my carb work. all I can do is screw them up. in exchange I take care of his drive and mow his yard every now and then. but like I said you get me pic's and vids. I can take care of that other problem for you. at least that way you can keep the family jewels halfway safe. let me know


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## detdrbuzzard (Jan 20, 2012)

if there is anything you don't feel comfortable doing take your machine to a shop for service. a new carb install isn't hard just take pic's of the removal of the old carb so you know where everything goes when you install the new carb. don't take the old carb off until you are ready to install the new carb


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## Pythons37 (Nov 9, 2012)

I don't think you risk losing your Man Card by having someone fix your blower. Looking after your family is an all encompassing venture that certainly validates your Man Card. If you get on track with your local dealer, he might be more apt to help you in the future. You know, 8" of wet snow and a belt breaks, he might do yours first, instead of last.


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## AverageJoe (Feb 19, 2014)

beardown34 said:


> Sorry, which one is option #2? I don't know what you mean.


Should I just hand in my man-card now? *Should I just lay my nuts down on the ground feed them through the auger* of my snowthrower?


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## beardown34 (Jan 22, 2014)

AverageJoe said:


> Should I just hand in my man-card now? *Should I just lay my nuts down on the ground feed them through the auger* of my snowthrower?


Oww!


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## beardown34 (Jan 22, 2014)

POWERSHIFT93 said:


> do u have a neighbor or buddy that can do the carb work. and in exchange you can do something they can not. in those toro's there are no BLOODY SHEER PINS in them. I would need pics or vid's to help you on that problem. I have my jet mechanic next door neighbor do my carb work. all I can do is screw them up. in exchange I take care of his drive anxd mow his yard every now and then. but like I said you get me pic's and vids. I can take care of that other problem for you. at least that way you can keep the family jewels halfway safe. let me know


Thanks for the reply. Btw there are shear pins in power max models. This is a common misconception. There are only no shear pins in the HD models, which are 9 hp and above (see the line Auger Gearbox in this comparison http://www.toro.com/en-us/Homeowner/Pages/snow/compare-2012-2-stage-HD-snow.pdf ). 

I can take pics of mine if you don't believe. I just replaced one of the two shear pins yesterday.


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## Big Ed (Feb 10, 2013)

I never would take anything to the dealer to do, unless it is a recall and they are doing it for free.
That goes with anything I own.

Same way for someone to come to the house to fix say a dryer, washer,oven or a hot water heater. If you research your problem you can fix it yourself and save hundreds.
Example, my dryer stopped, went on line and researched the problem it could have been one of 3 things a simple test with a multimeter determined the problem was the thermal fuse. I think I spent $10 bucks with the shipping to fix, a service guy would have cost hundreds.
My oven stopped, researched the problem tested again it turned out to be the igniter. Now that cost $160 they got you by the you know what as they would rather have you buy a whole new oven. The burner is probably worth $50 bucks or so. If that.

What will they charge for the "service"? Like said a carb is not that hard to swap out. Heck even a carb rebuild for a blower is not that hard to do.

I was shopping for a belt for an old lawnmower once, a big Harley dude ran the shop. As I was waiting for him taking care of a customer I had to hold back a smile. The customer had bought a new mower from him and wanted to set up a first oil change appointment. The dude was trying to tell him how simple it was, just dump the old out and add a quart.  The customer told him he did not trust himself to do it and wanted to make an appointment. The dude explained that he would have to charge a minimum service charge of $45 bucks and the cost of the oil. He kept trying to tell him how easy it was, the guy made the appointment and left. 

He looked at me and said do you believe that over half of my customers are like that? and I try to tell them how easy it is to change something like the oil or a spark plug but they insist on me doing it.

I told him if they didn't mind paying don't mind taking their money. 

He didn't have the big belt I need either.
I never did get a belt, I ended up getting another machine.

I have a ride on Snapper now too. 

Bottom line is how much are they going to charge and exactly what " service" are you going to get?
Do it yourself and gain the knowledge and save the bucks.
For the cost of their "service" you could probably buy 2 carbs. at least one.


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## Fred9 (Dec 21, 2013)

I say take to it to the shop. You'll feel more comfortable and, hopefully, the shop will provide proper service and any needed repairs.


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## Mr Fixit (Nov 19, 2013)

In my years in service I've seen one service tech. electrocute themselves in a a tower 250' above the ground, another jammed behind a clothes dryer electrocuted. The guy in the tower had written the safety manual. 
Servicing equipment requires a good ability. Some just don't have that. If you are prone to accidents and screw up, listen to your instinct. I had a friend who was always blowing it when he touched anything. He tried loading a sailboat under a power line finally. Some things are not forgiving.
eg. Does the internet blog tell you if your clothes dryer turns but has no heat. Check the one breaker attached to the second breaker one in your electrical box? I was on at least 8 such service calls. Three of the repair companies had told them to buy a new dryer. Go with experience. I never suggest some guys to touch electricity. Others should be selling shoes!


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## Sid (Jan 31, 2014)

Yeah people are afraid to try to fix stuff anymore , the learning process requires one to mess up once in a while, hopefully not to badly. You have to start somewhere.
Sid


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## MnJim (Jan 26, 2014)

Sid said:


> Yeah people are afraid to try to fix stuff anymore , the learning process requires one to mess up once in a while, hopefully not to badly. You have to start somewhere.
> Sid


Yes even service techs have to start somewhere, Hopefully not on your machine.


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## db9938 (Nov 17, 2013)

My take, do what you can afford. If it means taking it in, and supporting a local business, then so be it. And if you happen to be a local business person, turn it into opportunity to make a sales pitch.

But, if you are like me, well I have to work on my own by the default wife and kids reaching my wallet before me.


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## beardown34 (Jan 22, 2014)

db9938 said:


> My take, do what you can afford. If it means taking it in, and supporting a local business, then so be it. And if you happen to be a local business person, turn it into opportunity to make a sales pitch.
> 
> But, if you are like me, well I have to work on my own by the default wife and kids reaching my wallet before me.


i'm all for supporting local businesses, but the truth of it is if i felt comfortable taking the carb off and apart myself, i would do it myself. the fact is i do not, and so i didn't. before this season i didn't even know what a carburetor was! so while you guys are light years ahead of me in this world, i'm about at my limits dropping the bowl and replacing the jets, which i did on my garage sale craftsman single stage find. i'm not as bold farting around on this toro power max, which is much more expensive.

i'd like to learn this some day, but the limitations in time, knowledge , and extenuating circumstances (the only time i have to work on the machine is when my kids are sleeping, and when they are sleeping, i can't turn on the machine because it's too loud!) make this, in my mind, not possible for me to do myself.


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## db9938 (Nov 17, 2013)

beardown34 said:


> i'm all for supporting local businesses, but the truth of it is if i felt comfortable taking the carb off and apart myself, i would do it myself. the fact is i do not, and so i didn't. before this season i didn't even know what a carburetor was! so while you guys are light years ahead of me in this world, i'm about at my limits dropping the bowl and replacing the jets, which i did on my garage sale craftsman single stage find. i'm not as bold farting around on this toro power max, which is much more expensive.
> 
> i'd like to learn this some day, but the limitations in time, knowledge , and extenuating circumstances (the only time i have to work on the machine is when my kids are sleeping, and when they are sleeping, i can't turn on the machine because it's too loud!) make this, in my mind, not possible for me to do myself.


I completely understand, having 4 kids myself. Time is precious, and if you are like me, you feel torn taking some zen garage time away from refereeing a miniature UFC match over the Wii controllers. 

Just know, that if you have a change of mind, most folks here are more than willing to help. And saying that, having the ability to post pics will aid greatly in guiding you. I'm not trying to make a "man-card" thing out out this, heck you do the best by your kids, and that's man enough in my book. 

But by definition, in my book, men are builders not destroyers. We should build each other up, not tear each other down. So, the offer is there, judgement aside.


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## Spectrum (Jan 6, 2013)

If you are competent, equipped and like doing it the have at it. Otherwise hire it out, that's why others have made it their trade. Dealing with OPE is essential (unless you hire the chores out) working on the equipment is entirely elective.

As someone that has parted dozens of machine down I can say that EVERY machine has stories to tell, often horror stories. Many people have no business touching tools but they do some numb stuff. There is no shame in knowing and respecting your limits.

Pete


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## beardown34 (Jan 22, 2014)

db9938 said:


> I completely understand, having 4 kids myself. Time is precious, and if you are like me, you feel torn taking some zen garage time away from refereeing a miniature UFC match over the Wii controllers.
> 
> Just know, that if you have a change of mind, most folks here are more than willing to help. And saying that, having the ability to post pics will aid greatly in guiding you. I'm not trying to make a "man-card" thing out out this, heck you do the best by your kids, and that's man enough in my book.
> 
> But by definition, in my book, men are builders not destroyers. We should build each other up, not tear each other down. So, the offer is there, judgement aside.


well stated -- thanks for the input!

Maybe someday I'll learn enough to feel comfortable tackling this myself. I wonder if the dealer would let me come and watch them take the carb out and apart. That would be a huge head start. I know YouTube videos exist, but I need like super baby steps right now, from beginning to end.


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## db9938 (Nov 17, 2013)

beardown34 said:


> well stated -- thanks for the input!
> 
> Maybe someday I'll learn enough to feel comfortable tackling this myself. I wonder if the dealer would let me come and watch them take the carb out and apart. That would be a huge head start. I know YouTube videos exist, but I need like super baby steps right now, from beginning to end.


If you take the pics, we will walk you you through. As, slow as you need, no pressure. Step-by-step, we are here for you.


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## beardown34 (Jan 22, 2014)

re: shear pins on toro power max:


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## UNDERTAKER (Dec 30, 2013)

beardown34 said:


> re: shear pins on toro power max:


 those are grade 5 bolts cadium plated. use 2.. 1/2 inch wrench undo them and see if the bolt comes out. after u get it out that auger should spin freely on the shaft. but before you undo that bolt see how much slop is there. forward, backward and side ways. if the bolt is fine then it is a bearing on that side or the impeller bearing. LET ME KNOW WHAT U FIND IN THERE. U CAN PM ME WITH QUESTIONS.


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

POWERSHIFT93, is that the stock setup? It seems like a strangely-long bolt to the uninitiated (myself). 

I'm used to seeing the tip of the bolt stick out much less than that (just beyond the nut), and I haven't seen bushings on shear bolts (just taking up threaded length) before. 

But I've never owned a Toro.


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## db9938 (Nov 17, 2013)

Normally I would concur, but the toro parts diagram, shows a bolt with a collar similar to this setup. And the impeller shaft bolt, is different from the auger bolts.... ?


Would have thought that if there was longer auger bolts, it would have been to standardize parts.


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## beardown34 (Jan 22, 2014)

RedOctobyr said:


> POWERSHIFT93, is that the stock setup? It seems like a strangely-long bolt to the uninitiated (myself).
> 
> I'm used to seeing the tip of the bolt stick out much less than that (just beyond the nut), and I haven't seen bushings on shear bolts (just taking up threaded length) before.
> 
> But I've never owned a Toro.


those are pictures of my machine, and yes, it's a stock setup. the first picture is the new shear bolt i just ordered and replaced ( Toro Shear Bolt Kit #TSBKIT ) and the second picture is the previously existing shear bolt that came with the machine when bought used. i have no idea what the purpose of the spacer is.

btw i cancelled my dealer service appointment! haha! we had 1/2" dusting of snow this morning, so i tried out the machine and it actually ran fine on no choke. something acutely happened the morning after i sprayed up into the jets with gumout carb cleaner, but in the days following, it has begun to run better and better and now i think it is actually running better than before i dropped the bowl and sprayed things out. i think i am going to try some marvel mystery oil in the gas and oil and then run the tank dry before putting the machine down for the season.

i will ask for some help in the near future about what the heck i should be lubing or greasing up before putting the machine to storage, because i have no idea about that.


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## db9938 (Nov 17, 2013)

Hey, sounds like a McDonald play land victory lap time! Especially with the money saved.

Running the tank dry, may alleviate some starting issues. Gasoline is a solvent, and albeit it is not the best idea to let the gum and varnish to run into your cylinder, it does not sound as though there was a lot of it to begin with.

Might I also recommend running an actual carb cleaner solution in you gasoline, that might enhance it's solvent properties.

You want to run it dry, let it cool, add an ounce or two of gas, and see if it has resolved itself.


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## beardown34 (Jan 22, 2014)

db9938 said:


> Hey, sounds like a McDonald play land victory lap time! Especially with the money saved.
> 
> Running the tank dry, may alleviate some starting issues. Gasoline is a solvent, and albeit it is not the best idea to let the gum and varnish to run into your cylinder, it does not sound as though there was a lot of it to begin with.
> 
> ...


I'm open to any ideas. What's an example of an actual carb cleaner? You mean like seafoam?


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## enigma-2 (Feb 11, 2014)

beardown34 said:


> I'm open to any ideas. What's an example of an actual carb cleaner? You mean like seafoam?


Seafoam is what I use on a regular basis.


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## beardown34 (Jan 22, 2014)

enigma-2 said:


> Seafoam is what I use on a regular basis.


do you use it externally, like spraying onto/into the carb? or as an additive in the gas tank?


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## Roar (Feb 27, 2014)

I had the same problem with a 5 horse Tecumseh engine on a Craftsman chipper/shredder. At the local auto parts store I bought a bucket of solvent/cleaner. It had a basket inside. Took the carburetor off and apart, put it in the basket, submerged in the fluid, put the lid on, and left it there for a couple of days. 
The engine ran well after reassembly and re-installation.
Others may want to try this if spraying cleaners and running cleaners through the fuel system, does not take care of the problem.
f.w.i.w.
Roar


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## Kiss4aFrog (Nov 3, 2013)

Do you do your own surgery ?? There isn't any giving up your nuts or any other silly expression. We are all very good at something and terrible at others. You need to work with your strengths. Most people here are here to save a buck or tinker. There is stuff you can do, stuff you can learn and maybe stuff you've learned not to do again. If you want to ask do we think you can replace a carb, yes .. most people can it's pretty simple. Do we think you can tear it down, clean it, reassemble and then adjust it, that's a more difficult project but we have plenty of help to offer and tons of youtube videos on the subject so you can "see" how it's done and what's involved. 

If you can afford to have someone do it for you and you'd rather not do it, no shame whatsoever. Nothing worse than trying to help someone learn something only to find them in the position they have lost stuff or damaged more of what they were trying to save and ended up having to take it in. Not to mention the guy who has to put it back together usually isn't happy getting it partially torn down.

I'm an auto mechanic but when a competitor has a 15 dollar LOF coupon I'm going there and let them get dirty. Older I get the more I like having someone else do the dirty stuff.


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## beardown34 (Jan 22, 2014)

Let's say hypothetically you started with a clean slate. Brand new snowblower. If you always ran it with Stabil-ized fuel, added MMO and/or Seafoam every once in a while, and drained it at the end of the season -- do you think you would ever need to take the carb out or apart? I mean obviously gaskets and stuff would need to be replaced, but I'm just talking about jets plugging up and varnish building up.


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## UNDERTAKER (Dec 30, 2013)

beardown34 said:


> Let's say hypothetically you started with a clean slate. Brand new snowblower. If you always ran it with Stabil-ized fuel, added MMO and/or Seafoam every once in a while, and drained it at the end of the season -- do you think you would ever need to take the carb out or apart? I mean obviously gaskets and stuff would need to be replaced, but I'm just talking about jets plugging up and varnish building up.


 even brand new engines need carb work done in time. even with all the additives you put in. the gas will still gum it up. for the endgame run the carb and tank bone dry. for cold storage.


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## UNDERTAKER (Dec 30, 2013)

RedOctobyr said:


> POWERSHIFT93, is that the stock setup? It seems like a strangely-long bolt to the uninitiated (myself).
> 
> I'm used to seeing the tip of the bolt stick out much less than that (just beyond the nut), and I haven't seen bushings on shear bolts (just taking up threaded length) before.
> 
> But I've never owned a Toro.


 yeahhh that is stock setup. they must be trying to get rid there overstock of spacers from the machines that came before these is my guess. I hope he did not put a BLOODY SHEER PIN back in there. they are 2 inch long 5/16 grade 5 cadium plated bolts. I run all stainless steel in my two blowers. so they do not rot from what ever the city uses for salt these days. the cadium plate will rot in time to..


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## UNDERTAKER (Dec 30, 2013)

beardown34 said:


> those are pictures of my machine, and yes, it's a stock setup. the first picture is the new shear bolt i just ordered and replaced ( Toro Shear Bolt Kit #TSBKIT ) and the second picture is the previously existing shear bolt that came with the machine when bought used. i have no idea what the purpose of the spacer is.
> 
> btw i cancelled my dealer service appointment! haha! we had 1/2" dusting of snow this morning, so i tried out the machine and it actually ran fine on no choke. something acutely happened the morning after i sprayed up into the jets with gumout carb cleaner, but in the days following, it has begun to run better and better and now i think it is actually running better than before i dropped the bowl and sprayed things out. i think i am going to try some marvel mystery oil in the gas and oil and then run the tank dry before putting the machine down for the season.
> 
> i will ask for some help in the near future about what the heck i should be lubing or greasing up before putting the machine to storage, because i have no idea about that.


 that is what I am here for. beardown34


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## db9938 (Nov 17, 2013)

Any mechanical device can and will fail, given enough time. 

I have used STP in my gas vehicles, but thats been a while ago. I'd defer to others and their opinions on the brand, but what ever you do, don't use too much. There is such a thing as too much of a good thing.

We are getting close to grass cutting mode, so if you were to mix it into your gas can, you may see an improvement in those too.


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## Big Ed (Feb 10, 2013)

I bought a Craftsman 6-1/2 horse self propelled walk behind mower in around 1998 when I could not find a drive belt for an old Jacobson mower I acquired from someone who was going to throw it away. It was a self propelled and worked nice till the belt went. I got tired of pushing it without the belt. 

But as of date I have never done nothing to the Craftsman mower but change the oil. It has a LOT of use on it, I bought a ride on snapper a few years ago but I still use the Craftsman for the exercise when the weather is nice and not too hot and for the cut around the bushes and fence where I can't get close with the ride on. When it is too hot and I don't feel like riding I get my kid to do the lawn with the walk behind as he doesn't want to fool around with the snapper.
Never had the carb off. I drain the gas at the end of the season and had to repair a hole on the deck but never did anything to the motor...yet.

I use stabilizer in my blower but in the mower I just give the gas a little shot of this, Berryman B-12 CHEMTOOL Carburetor/Choke Cleaners - 15 oz can liquid b-12 carb/choke cleaner (Set of 12): All-Purpose Cleaners : Walmart.com I give the blower some too.

It must work I never had the carb apart on either.
One of these days I think I will take the lawnmower carb apart just for the heck of it to see how it looks inside. 

Anyone else use the B-12 Berrysman fuel treatment?


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

I tried some to see if it would help with a somewhat-dirty carb on my generator (needs choke to run smoothly). It didn't make a difference. Neither did Seafoam. 

But despite their claims, I suspect they're really more for preventative maintenance, vs actually cleaning stuff up "magically". Or at most, helping to slowly remove small deposits.


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## dbert (Aug 25, 2013)

beardown34 said:


> Let's say hypothetically you started with a clean slate. Brand new snowblower. If you always ran it with Stabil-ized fuel, added MMO and/or Seafoam every once in a while, and drained it at the end of the season -- do you think you would ever need to take the carb out or apart? I mean obviously gaskets and stuff would need to be replaced, but I'm just talking about jets plugging up and varnish building up.


Perhaps it's a red herring, but I believe the consequences of ethanol in the gasoline has taken it's toll on a lot of outdoor power equipment. Seasonal operation means they can spend time just sitting while the fuel becomes the witches brew that effects the fuel system components.
I do think manufactures are realizing this and making these components more resistant to the negative effects, but only in the last year or two.
Whatever your regime including using additives, using gas that is fresh, storing dry in the off season puts us way ahead of the typical consumer that has their machine on craigslist saying it ran last year, but now it needs carburetor work.
See Ethanol Damage UP CLOSE! | The Blog at Jacks Small Engines


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## Big Ed (Feb 10, 2013)

Hey Bear, for curiosity sake.....did they give you a price tag to do what they would do to it?

I went back and looked, but could not find if you said this already.


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## Big Ed (Feb 10, 2013)

RedOctobyr said:


> I tried some to see if it would help with a somewhat-dirty carb on my generator (needs choke to run smoothly). It didn't make a difference. Neither did Seafoam.
> 
> But despite their claims, I suspect they're really more for preventative maintenance, vs actually cleaning stuff up "magically". Or at most, helping to slowly remove small deposits.


Maybe that is the reason I have not had to take my apart for cleaning.
I add a little to my fuel can every time, with stabilizer in the winter for the snow blower gas. I don't use the stabilizer in the can for the summer as the gas doesn't have a chance to sit for a long time. 
My mower is around 15 years old now, I never had any problems with the carburetor on it. 

Knocking on wood real hard now....I hope they didn't hear me. 
That is my luck as soon as I say something like that it will break.


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## JRHAWK9 (Jan 6, 2013)

As a Bear fan, your man card was revoked a long LONG time ago!  


I prefer not to bring things to the dealer.


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## beardown34 (Jan 22, 2014)

Big Ed said:


> Hey Bear, for curiosity sake.....did they give you a price tag to do what they would do to it?
> 
> I went back and looked, but could not find if you said this already.


The bigger dealer said $90-100, the smaller dealer said ~$60. Both included carb take apart and cleaning, spark plug, lube/grease but no other parts.


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## beardown34 (Jan 22, 2014)

JRHAWK9 said:


> As a Bear fan, your man card was revoked a long LONG time ago!
> 
> 
> I prefer not to bring things to the dealer.


Damnit, it's not my fault that "rex was our quarterback" for so long! ;(


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## beardown34 (Jan 22, 2014)

Ok I ran the machine dry with fuel containing stabil and some MMO. Then I changed the oil and added a couple ounces of MMO in there too. I dropped the carb bowl to get every last drop of gas out, and sprayed the bowl and main jet with carb cleaner. Considering at this point the machine ran without surging on no choke, I made the assumption that I don't need to take the carb out or do anything further to it -- do you agree? Well I'm going to replace the bowl gasket as that looks a little stretched, but I mean I wasn't planning on taking the carb out and apart this year. 

Should I take the spark plug out and put 5-10mL (1-2 teaspoons) of clean engine oil down the hole? And if I were to replace the spark plug, does it matter if I change it now vs start of next season?

Finally, another part I'm dreading because I just don't know what I'm supposed to do -- where am I exactly supposed to grease and apply lube to? Would WD-40 work? Engine oil? Leftover fat from Thanksgiving turkey??


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## db9938 (Nov 17, 2013)

The oil in the cylinder, is a good idea. Make sure you rotate the crank around, with the spark plug out, a couple times. 

I would go with the lesser amount. 

Insofar as the lube points, I do not have your specific machine, so I will defer to someone that has more knowledge.


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## beardown34 (Jan 22, 2014)

db9938 said:


> The oil in the cylinder, is a good idea. Make sure you rotate the crank around, with the spark plug out, a couple times.
> 
> I would go with the lesser amount.
> 
> Insofar as the lube points, I do not have your specific machine, so I will defer to someone that has more knowledge.


ok i'll add 5mL of oil and pull the recoil slowly a couple times with the sparkplug out.

btw when i drained the tank, i went to pull the recoil just to make sure all the gas was used up in the carb bowl, and within 1-2 pulls, the recoil became "stuck", and impossible to pull. i put some more gas in the tank again, and then i could pull the recoil again.

why did this happen? and with regards to the discussion about putting some oil into the spark plug hole -- now that my tank is dry, do i need to put some gas back in the fuel tank so i can rotate the crank around a couple times?


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## 43128 (Feb 14, 2014)

if i were you i would get a bottle of seafoam and from now on add a splash of it to every gallon of gas you use for your power equipment. i would also recommend changin the oil since you added mmv oil, making the oil thinner, however wait until next season to change it because the oil will just collect moisture over the spring, summer and fall. im assuming the engine wouldnt turn over because you added to much oil in the cylnder, causing a hydrolock because liquids dont compress


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## db9938 (Nov 17, 2013)

beardown34 said:


> ok i'll add 5mL of oil and pull the recoil slowly a couple times with the sparkplug out.
> 
> btw when i drained the tank, i went to pull the recoil just to make sure all the gas was used up in the carb bowl, and within 1-2 pulls, the recoil became "stuck", and impossible to pull. i put some more gas in the tank again, and then i could pull the recoil again.
> 
> why did this happen? and with regards to the discussion about putting some oil into the spark plug hole -- now that my tank is dry, do i need to put some gas back in the fuel tank so i can rotate the crank around a couple times?


There is no correlation between having fuel in tank, and being able to rotate the crank.

If I were to guess, and I am, your decompression mechanism on your camshaft is sticking. The decompression mech allows for easier starts, what you are used to. 

The obvious question with this situation is, when was the last time the oil was changed. Shy of that, would require a complete teardown. Not what you wanted to hear.


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## beardown34 (Jan 22, 2014)

db9938 said:


> There is no correlation between having fuel in tank, and being able to rotate the crank.
> 
> If I were to guess, and I am, your decompression mechanism on your camshaft is sticking. The decompression mech allows for easier starts, what you are used to.
> 
> The obvious question with this situation is, when was the last time the oil was changed. Shy of that, would require a complete teardown. Not what you wanted to hear.


let me clarify -- all these events are in a matter of 10-15 minutes. the machine ran fine and i ran the gas out. then the oil was drained and replaced with new oil -- if anything, on the slightly lower end of the range shown on the dipstick. probably 5-10mL of MMO was added to oil, not much. i pulled the recoil just to see if there was any fuel left in the carb bowl. within 1-2 pulls i couldn't pull the recoil. i added some gas back to the tank (literally 2 minutes after not being able to pull the recoil), and after opening the fuel shutoff and letting fuel reach the carb bowl, the recoil pulled easily and the machine started up again. 

i think this is a normal phenomenon -- i just don't know why it happens. but it sounds like this, from Toro's own FAQ about end of season machine care:

Toro | FAQs, Snowthrowers


*2-Cycle Engines (Oil and Gas Mixture):*

Slowly pull recoil starter until resistance is felt due to compression pressure, then stop.
Release starter tension slowly to prevent engine from reversing due to compression pressure. This position closes both the intake and exhaust ports to prevent outside air entry, which can result in corrosion of the cylinder bore.
of course mine is a 4-cycle engine, but the way everything acted sounded like this description.


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## beardown34 (Jan 22, 2014)

43128 said:


> if i were you i would get a bottle of seafoam and from now on add a splash of it to every gallon of gas you use for your power equipment. i would also recommend changin the oil since you added mmv oil, making the oil thinner, however wait until next season to change it because the oil will just collect moisture over the spring, summer and fall. im assuming the engine wouldnt turn over because you added to much oil in the cylnder, causing a hydrolock because liquids dont compress


i did not add any oil into the sparkplug hole yet.


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## db9938 (Nov 17, 2013)

beardown34 said:


> let me clarify -- all these events are in a matter of 10-15 minutes. the machine ran fine and i ran the gas out. then the oil was drained and replaced with new oil -- if anything, on the slightly lower end of the range shown on the dipstick. probably 5-10mL of MMO was added to oil, not much. i pulled the recoil just to see if there was any fuel left in the carb bowl. within 1-2 pulls i couldn't pull the recoil. i added some gas back to the tank (literally 2 minutes after not being able to pull the recoil), and after opening the fuel shutoff and letting fuel reach the carb bowl, the recoil pulled easily and the machine started up again.
> 
> i think this is a normal phenomenon -- i just don't know why it happens. but it sounds like this, from Toro's own FAQ about end of season machine care:
> 
> ...


And two and four strokes behave as differently as the manufactures of the various engines. 

The "stiff pull" is from the decompression mech not pushing the the valve open. 

Is it due to lube, mechanical failure, or is it that you are pull starting it at a moment here it does not engage. I do not know.


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## beardown34 (Jan 22, 2014)

Does everyone put oil into the spark plug hole before storage?


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## UNDERTAKER (Dec 30, 2013)

beardown34 said:


> Does everyone put oil into the spark plug hole before storage?


 if u are going to do that use FOGGING OIL.


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## Big Ed (Feb 10, 2013)

beardown34 said:


> Does everyone put oil into the spark plug hole before storage?


I never poured oil into the spark plug hole.

I use a fogging fluid for when I am putting mine away at the end of a season.
Be it for my outboard engines, lawn mowers, snow blower, whatever.

I don't use this particular brand I use a different one.
Doesn't anyone else use something like this?  

Click on for larger viewing.


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## Kiss4aFrog (Nov 3, 2013)

I do but it's fogging oil.
.


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## Big Ed (Feb 10, 2013)

Kiss,
.
Click on the picture I posted, you can read it then it is fogging oil.
That is what I pictured just a different brand name.

It might smoke a little when you go to start it in the beginning of the season, but it does a good job protecting the engine.


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## Kiss4aFrog (Nov 3, 2013)

It will smoke some but it's to be expected. If you're going to change the plug for the season do it AFTER you get it running.

As for brand, I use a name brand but I don't have any favorite. Sta-Bil, CRC, Amsoil, any marine brand ... or the old standby of just squirting a little engine oil in there. It's just insurance you're not going to have a problem with rust or the rings.

Ed, why am I always a minute behind you ???


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## Ryan (Dec 13, 2013)

WD-40 does just fine and no I do not do it, I see no need.


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## Big Ed (Feb 10, 2013)

Don't feel bad I just noticed Powershift beat me to the punch. 

I read the question and wondered why no one mentioned the fogging fluid.
I thought maybe no one used it?

Yes, the smoke is normal when you go to restart it after sitting. And yes use an old plug for the initial start then put the new one in after it runs off the fogging fluid.
Good catch Kiss I should have mentioned that.


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## Big Ed (Feb 10, 2013)

Ryan said:


> WD-40 does just fine and no I do not do it, I see no need.


It might just be me but I wouldn't use WD-40.


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## beardown34 (Jan 22, 2014)

You guys are putting that fogging oil into the spark plug hole? Or in the gas? Crankcase?


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## Kiss4aFrog (Nov 3, 2013)

WD40 is the trailer park version of a lubricant. If you look up what it is and what it's made of and made for you get an idea of what it really is. WD40, the *W* & *D* = *W*ater *D*isplacement.
( If you live in a trailer park the comment isn't personal it's based on the stereotype)

The reason it works so well to remove gummy deposits from lables, to clean and wipe down tools, to clean and dry off/out distributor wires, caps and rotors is that it evaporates. That is also why it's NOT a good choice for lubricating hinges and tons of other household and automotive things the backyard guy grabs it for.
Lube a door hinge with WD40 (home or car) and the squeak stops. You'll need to lube it again. Lube it with white lithium or oil and by the time you need to do it again you can't remember how long ago you did it last.

Oil or fogging oil will still be oil in five years. If you lubricate a door hinge with oil it will still be lubricated years after WD40 gave up the ghost and if you use WD40 as a penetrating oil ,,, you're just backwards and causing yourself more work and risking damage to what you're using it on as it's not giving you the benefit of an actual penetrating lubricant like PB Blaster, Kroil or even Liquid Wrench.

Sorry to offend but I get tired of hearing about WD40 and Seafoam. Read the label on Seafoam. It does all those things and you can add it to oil or gas. Do you really think something that is chemically formulated to do so much stuff really does any one of them better than a dedicated FI cleaner or fuel stabilizer or oil stabilizer or lifter cleaner or .... any of the many things Seafoam lists ??

I have cans of WD40, I use Seafoam but I don't pray to them. They have a place and if you are lazy or don't have anything at the time . . dump some WD40 down the hole, pull the engine over a couple times and replace the plug and you're good or at least better than nothing. BUT, if you have oil available or you want to do it right or you know you have severe moisture issues where you store the machine, get some oil.

Every time I get gas for the lawn and garden stuff I measure out a dose of Marine Sta-Bil and toss it in. Every two or three I toss in a measured amount of Lucas FI cleaner. Keeps me from needing to tear down carbs.


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## Kiss4aFrog (Nov 3, 2013)

beardown34 said:


> You guys are putting that fogging oil into the spark plug hole? Or in the gas? Crankcase?


Spark plug hole. Helps to coat the cylinder walls/rings/valves and prevent rust/corrosion.


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## beardown34 (Jan 22, 2014)

Kiss4aFrog said:


> Spark plug hole. Helps to coat the cylinder walls/rings/valves and prevent rust/corrosion.


Got it, thanks.


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## Big Ed (Feb 10, 2013)

beardown34 said:


> You guys are putting that fogging oil into the spark plug hole? Or in the gas? Crankcase?


On the 2 strokes just when the carb is running out of gas you shoot it in that way it gets in the whole system.
Regardless two stroke or 4 stroke engines you take the plug out and squirt some in turn over the engine a little (pull cord) then squirt in a little more. That way it gets all over.
I never run any through the carbs, I just yank the plug and shoot it in, turn it over a little, then do it again and then put the plug back in.

Word of caution when doing a 2 stroke outboard while running, I have a 1973 Evinrude 65 horse 3 cylinder inline engine. Also a Johnson 1980, 70 horse 3 cylinder. 
When fogging one of these or when running the carbs dry don't do it. 
What happens is that the top carb will run out first, then the engine will be running on the other 2, then finally number 2 will run out and it will run on what is left in the number 3 carb. As you're doing this and since it is a 2 stroke engine (mixing the gas and oil) the carbs that run out before the others those cylinders where the carbs run dry are still moving and won't be getting the proper lubrication.
Over the long run you will ruin the bearings. It might take 10 years but they will go bad.
Don't ask me how I know.

My Dad, (an old sea dog from the old days) told me a lonnnng time ago, boy best thing to do when you come in from the salt water is to run the engine with the fresh water hookup to flush out the engine of all the salt. Then after you flush it a while unhook the gas line and let her run out the gas out of the whole system and you will never have carb problems.

He was right about never having carb problems they were clean as a whistle after 15 years of use. But since I followed his advice for 15 years the bearings finally went on #1 (top) cylinder! As a outboard motor mechanic told me afterwards, that is what happens when you do that.

After it went he claimed he never told me to do that. 
I ribbed him about that till the day he died.


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

I've never fogged an engine, or added oil to the plug hole, for storage. I've never had an issue, but perhaps I've just been lucky. 

Some people suggest slowly pulling the cord until you feel resistance, then stopping. This closes the valves, and puts the engine in the compression stroke, so everything in the engine is closed. This is supposed to help keep condensation, etc, out of the cylinder. 

I definitely use stabilizer, and/or otherwise deal with the fuel (like run the carb dry, etc).


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## 43128 (Feb 14, 2014)

i have never fogged an engine, however at the end of the year i drain the gas from my fuel tank. i belweive that fuel stabilizer is no excuse to not drain your fuel, ives always played it safe and never had any problems


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## beardown34 (Jan 22, 2014)

I'd like half of my man card back. I just took out, took apart, cleaned, and re-assembled my carb! Granted, it was on my much less valuable Craftsman lawn mower, but for me, it feels like quite an accomplishment! I thought I fubar'd the auto-choke mechanism that is right above the governor linkage, but by some miracle I was able to get that back on and functioning (I think). The mower used to start and die immediately once or twice before eventually staying running, and now it starts and stays running on the first pull! I'll let it sit overnight and try another cold start tomorrow. 

I have no idea what a fouled spark plug looks like, but on my mower it looks dark and oily and smells of gas. Maybe I'll get a replacement spark plug. What harm can you do if you continue to use a spark plug that fires and starts the engine, but might be a little fouled? Just bad fuel economy?


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## db9938 (Nov 17, 2013)

Well, maybe.

Here's a chart:


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## Brucebotti (Feb 10, 2013)

On all my mowers, blower, etc, I always remove the plug, put in a few squirts of oil and then slowly turn it over by hand. I've been doing this for 40 years and haven't had a problem yet. Maybe I've just been lucky. It's a little smoky on the initial start-up, but I can live with that...
Bruce


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## beardown34 (Jan 22, 2014)

The lawnmower whose carb I took apart and cleaned last night still exhibits some symptoms of starting briefly and then stopping a couple times, before finally staying running. It was ~ 30 degrees outside and the lawnmower has an auto-choke mechanism, so I have no idea if the carb still is a little dirty or if it's just a matter of being cold. 

Although I took apart the carb and ran wire through and sprayed carb cleaner through every hole I saw, I did not follow with compressed air or let it soak. Due to limited time, I was more interested in just learning how to take it apart and put it back together. For the sake of learning, I have a couple more questions:

I got some Gumout carb/choke cleaner on the carb bowl gasket. I didn't soak it but some of the runoff spray did come in contact with it. Probably a bad idea right? It seems a little more stretched than before. 

What about the needle seat? I didn't have a carb tool handy to pull it out so I just ran a fine wire through it and then sprayed carb cleaner through it. Would carb cleaner damage the seat?

Finally, I am considering taking the carburetor out and apart again, and then soaking the parts in Pine Sol. Other than the bowl gasket, is there any part I should take out and not soak? Like the needle seat? 

For those that have soaked carbs in Pine Sol, do you use 100% Pine Sol or do you tend to dilute it with water? And how long do you soak?

Also, although the start and immediately stopping symptom seems to be primarily a carb related issue, can this also occur with a fouled spark plug? I ordered a new one anyways, but I was just curious.

Thanks in advance. Still trying to learn here.


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## UNDERTAKER (Dec 30, 2013)

beardown34 said:


> The lawnmower whose carb I took apart and cleaned last night still exhibits some symptoms of starting briefly and then stopping a couple times, before finally staying running. It was ~ 30 degrees outside and the lawnmower has an auto-choke mechanism, so I have no idea if the carb still is a little dirty or if it's just a matter of being cold.
> 
> Although I took apart the carb and ran wire through and sprayed carb cleaner through every hole I saw, I did not follow with compressed air or let it soak. Due to limited time, I was more interested in just learning how to take it apart and put it back together. For the sake of learning, I have a couple more questions:
> 
> ...


 I am the first to admit me and carbs do not get along. and it gets farmed out to my next door neighbor. but soaking it in pine-sol does not sound good!!!! go to your corner auto store and get a bucket of that carb stuff soaker/cleaner.


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## Hkellogg (Jan 22, 2014)

no reason to rebuild just buy new I bought a new carb for my 755e and put it on in less than 20 minutes and the machine runs 10x better than it ever did


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## beardown34 (Jan 22, 2014)

Some followup. Still doing experimentation on my lawnmower carb before I get the guts to do similar work on my more valuable snowblower. 

I took the carb off and apart again (it gets easier and faster each time I do it!) and decided to soak it in Pine Sol. $3 for 48oz (lemon), plus 50 cents off with a manufacturer coupon. I used a small Torx screwdriver (maybe T7? T10?) and got the needle seat out. I did not take the emulsion tube out because I didn't have an appropriate tool to do it. 

All in all I soaked the carb bowl, the actual carburetor, the needle seat, the float, and the main jet. I did not soak the main jet gasket or the carb bowl gasket. I used about ~ 15oz of straight Pine Sol, no dilution, and covered all parts to the top.

I started the soak at ~ 6pm and contemplated pulling the parts out before I went to sleep, but figured I've gone this far already -- might as well just soak it overnight! I brought it indoors so it soaked at room temp. This morning the bright yellow Pine Sol was much darker. There is darkening all over the exterior of the carburetor parts (aluminum?) which if I was smart, I could probably figure out was due to some form of oxidation or reduction. It appears to be purely cosmetic.

I lightly brushed the exterior with an old toothbrush just to see if any of the darkened color would come off (it did not), and then dried the parts off with paper towels, poked through every hole with a twisty tie wire, and blew through all holes and jets with compressed air. Re-assembled the carb and put it back on my lawnmower. 

I cursed baby jebus after the lawnmower would not start, and then realized the spark plug boot was still off! I never pretended to be smart! After I put the spark plug boot on, voila, the lawnmower started on the first pull and stayed running, which it was not doing before. It was probably ~ 45 degrees at the time. Plus, the exhaust was lemon-y fresh!

Right now my Toro Power Max runs with no choke, so I don't think I will take apart the carb this year. So does my Toro 621E that I found on Craigslist (just purchased and barely used this season) so I probably won't be pulling that carb apart either. For now I'll just keep learning on my poor lawnmower. But if I ever do take the carbs apart on my snowblowers, I haven't decided if I will go the Pine Sol route, get an actual carb cleaner for a couple more bucks, or buy a cheapy utlrasonic cleaner (looks like $30-50 on Amazon, but I'm not sure which size I need yet to fit the carb parts).


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

I have heard of using things like Simple Green and Pine-Sol for cleaning carbs. I haven't tried it myself. 

On the subject of ultrasonic cleaners, some people seem to swear by them for cleaning carbs. I suppose they can help get into areas/passages that are just really difficult to reach, and can do it without risking damaging anything with a wire that's too stiff. It's possible they could help areas that are still out of reach to us (like under a Welch plug that hasn't been removed yet). 

I was really tempted to try one of the Harbor Freight ones. Their little one is something like $25 if you have a 20%-off coupon, making it an easier "impulse buy". The big one is more like $65 with a coupon, and can also heat the cleaning liquid. 

I was also looking at some on Amazon/eBay. One thing I noticed is that some units allow setting longer run-times. The HF units, for instance, have a 3-minute cycle on the little one, and 8 minutes max on the big, I think. Some allow for 10 or even 30 minute cycles, which might help for really-clogged carbs, perhaps. You could just keep running the shorter cycles, of course, but that's less convenient. 

It seems there are only a few main designs for the inexpensive ones, all sold under different names. The Harbor Freight manuals list dimensions for the cleaning "bucket", I believe, which would help figure out what size items you could fit. I saw someone mention ultrasonic-cleaning a carb in a few different orientations, as he couldn't submerge the whole thing at once.


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## beardown34 (Jan 22, 2014)

Maybe if I did the Pine Sol dip but only for a few hours, not overnight, it would adequately clean the carb but not cause discoloration.


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## greatwhitebuffalo (Feb 11, 2014)

beardown34 said:


> What's your thought on taking your snowthrower to the dealer for service? Should I just hand in my man-card now? Should I just lay my nuts down on the ground feed them through the auger of my snowthrower?
> QUOTE]
> 
> 
> ...


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## beardown34 (Jan 22, 2014)

I fogged my engine for the first time with Sta-Bil fogging spray. The white smoke after restarting the engine is pretty funny! Hopefully it's actually doing something helpful.


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## db9938 (Nov 17, 2013)

Just tell the neighbors you were fogging for mosquitos.


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