# Plastic impellers...



## FlamingSpaghetti (Jan 8, 2018)

And I thought the stamped sheet metal auger sections were bad enough, and just when you thought things couldn't get any worse, this happens.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/MTD-Crafts...254980?hash=item2a9d929204:g:NloAAOSwPzhaNIAf


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

What's wrong with a plastic impeller?


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## RIT333 (Feb 6, 2014)

If you try to throw a chunk of ice at -20 degrees, you will see plastic coming out of your chute. Just my guess though.


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## JnC (Feb 21, 2014)

Plastic composites have come a long way, from aerospace to auto manufacturing, manufacturers choose plastic over metal due to space/weight/shape constraints and prefer it over metal. 

In this case however the choice was made to cut cost, so no bueno. 

Beside being brittle than metal I wouldnt want a plastic impeller just because of the lack of momentum/torque compared to a metal one.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

RIT333 said:


> If you try to throw a chunk of ice at -20 degrees, you will see plastic coming out of your chute. Just my guess though.


Has this ever happened? Is it a wide spread problem? What kind of plastic is it? Is there an epidemic of exploding impellers? Has it ever happened even once?


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## classiccat (Mar 1, 2014)

A good % of the machines that I work-on have at least 1 impeller vane that nailed something... hard enough to distort.

I would be interested to see the outcome of a plastic impeller encountering whatever bent this vane from an old-school Toro.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

JnC said:


> Plastic composites have come a long way, from aerospace to auto manufacturing, manufacturers choose plastic over metal due to space/weight/shape constraints and prefer it over metal.
> 
> In this case however the choice was made to cut cost, so no bueno.
> 
> Beside being brittle than metal I wouldnt want a plastic impeller just because of the lack of momentum/torque compared to a metal one.


Actually, plastics can be, and in this case I bet it is, more expensive to manufacture than metal. 

And to your point, plastics can be shaped to be more effective than their metal counterparts.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

classiccat said:


> A good % of the machines that I work-on have at least 1 impeller vane that nailed something... hard enough to distort.
> 
> I would be interested to see the outcome of a plastic impeller encountering whatever bent this vane from an old-school Toro.


Depends on what the plastic is. There's lots of different kinds of plastic. What tends to kill plastics is SUN, UV RAYS. that's plastics mortal enemy. Makes them brittle.


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## classiccat (Mar 1, 2014)

jsup said:


> Depends on what the plastic is. There's lots of different kinds of plastic. What tends to kill plastics is SUN, UV RAYS. that's plastics mortal enemy. Makes them brittle.


The metal on those vanes requires a forge to reshape. Mapp and a sledge hammer wouldn't even nudge it. 

On the otherhand, perhaps if my '89 toro 824 had a plastic impeller to vaporize, I wouldn't have had reweld the entire auger housing to correct the torsional twist.

before









during









correction:









after


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## Jackmels (Feb 18, 2013)

I have No Problem with Plastic For Certain Applications, But I Don't Want it on My Snowblower. Period.


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## Kiss4aFrog (Nov 3, 2013)

It would make adding the impeller mod a challenge if the machine needed one. On the other hand plastic might be a better choice if it holds up to ice chunks, frozen newspapers and the like IF it's lighter so less stress on the bearings and it is rustproof.

It's a knee jerk reaction hearing plastic and assuming it's cheap and of lesser quality than it's metal predecessor. Might be something we just need to see how it goes.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

Jackmels said:


> I have No Problem with Plastic For Certain Applications, But I Don't Want it on My Snowblower. Period.


If I could build a snowblower out of plastic, I'd do it in a heartbeat. No rust, no chipping paint, stronger, lighter, lasts forever. Can be drilled, tapped, shaped in all different ways. 

The reason it's not done, is because metal is CHEAPER. Plastic is more ridged, doesn't flex, no need for welds, can be done in one piece, can be designed much better. Metal is archaic. Not that it hasn't worked, but with today's technology plastics can out perform metals for every situation.

The range of plastics is really misunderstood. Ya know, bridges are made of plastic. I'm not talking bits and pieces here and there, I'm talking the WHOLE BRIDGE:

https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=frp+bridge&FORM=HDRSC2

I'm trying to build a new product for myself out of plastic, because it's better for my application, and it's way more expensive than building it out of metal. I've been researching this for over two years waiting for plastic to be competitive. It's not getting any better. 

Ocean going yachts are made of plastic. Airplanes are made of plastic. 

Stairs, I-Beams, Structural components. 

https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=frp+structural+shapes&FORM=HDRSC2

Plastic does not automatically equal bad.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

Kiss4aFrog said:


> It would make adding the impeller mod a challenge if the machine needed one.


Why? Could be easier if the plastic is thicker, and perform better. OR, with plastic manufacturing process, you may not even need the mod. 


> On the other hand plastic might be a better choice if it holds up to ice chunks, frozen newspapers and the like IF it lighter so less stress on the bearings and it is rustproof


.

Plastics used correctly is, many times, more effective than metals. Now, clearly I'm not talking about engines, cylinders, bearings, etc.. For that you'd have to look at Ceramics, but for housings and such, yeah.



> It's a knee jerk reaction hearing plastic and assuming it's cheap and of lesser quality than it's metal predecessor. Might be something we just need to see how it goes.


Usually borne from ignorance of what plastics really are.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

Ceramic engine:






295HP 1.6 liter engine. Ceramic engines run hotter, don't need a cooling system, are more efficient, and last longer. 

I bring this up because the mere suggestion of a ceramic engine, to parallel the plastic impeller, would be tantamount to saying "I won't have a coffee cup powering my blower".. 

These pre-conceived biases without knowledge is just silly. I only know, because I've been trying to put out a stout plastic product and have no choice but to learn about it.


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

There are a lot of different plastics, absolutely, with different fillers for reinforcement. Plastic doesn't simply mean it's made out of recycled milk jugs. 

But this is an application with cold temperatures (where plastics get more brittle), and sudden impact loads. I work with plastics at work, but this is not an application where they'd be my first choice. 

My Toro 1800 single-stage electric has a plastic paddle. It works fine, and fortunately I've never had one break. They do show signs of wear, with grooves and notches in them, but they've held up. But I use it for the deck, which doesn't get chunks of ice like EOD. 

I think the earlier comparison was fair. If you hit something solid enough that it bends a metal impeller, the odds are decent that it might crack a plastic impeller. 

The plastic chute in my MTD worked well, no complaints. But I would not be comfortable with a plastic impeller, personally. If they turn out to be robust, and still running strong after 20 years, that will be great, and I'm happy to be wrong. But I'd rather not have one on my machine. 

As just a single reason for that opinion, if a metal piece on my machine cracks, I can weld it. But if a plastic impeller cracks, the best I could do is drill a hole at the end of the crack, and hope it doesn't continue to grow. 

I don't think lighter weight of the impeller offers the machine a big benefit. The bearing still takes most of its load from the snow being flung, rather than from the weight of the impeller. A plastic impeller *can* probably have tighter tolerances for concentricity of the blade tips, allowing a smaller gap to the impeller housing. But the impeller housing is the other half of that discussion, so I'm not convinced you'll suddenly see a nice tight fit.


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## deezlfan (Nov 8, 2017)

> Plastic does not automatically equal bad.


Unless is comes from China, right?


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

RedOctobyr said:


> There are a lot of different plastics, absolutely, with different fillers for reinforcement. Plastic doesn't simply mean it's made out of recycled milk jugs.
> 
> But this is an application with cold temperatures (where plastics get more brittle), and sudden impact loads. I work with plastics at work, but this is not an application where they'd be my first choice.
> 
> ...


Thing is, and I'm just going by what I read, I don't see a huge clamoring of people complaining about broken plastic impellers. Not being your first choice, I get that. Personally, a well constructed FRP wouldn't be a bad thing, po-tay-to, po-tah-to. It's used for bridges, and structural materials all the time. But where's the problems?

If I'm wrong, and many of these are breaking, it could be that plastic wasn't a good choice, or they picked the wrong plastic, or plastic wasn't the right choice. But I'm not seeing a lot of threads about shattered impellers, nor can I find anything in an internet search.


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

I've haven't seen reports either. But then again, I didn't realize there were plastic impellers for 2-stage machines until this morning  

As was pointed out to me recently in a thread about another new blower technology, just because there aren't many reports doesn't mean there aren't problems. There are probably millions of steel-impeller machines out there. But how many plastic-impeller machines are in use? 

And for normal use, especially when still young, they're probably fine. My concern is when you suck in a big chunk of ice, or ingest a newspaper. And things will get worse over time, as the plastic ages, and becomes more brittle.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

deezlfan said:


> Unless is comes from China, right?


Depends on the spec and QC.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

RedOctobyr said:


> I've haven't seen reports either. But then again, I didn't realize there were plastic impellers for 2-stage machines until this morning


EXACTLY!!



> As was pointed out to me recently in a thread about another new blower technology, just because there aren't many reports doesn't mean there aren't problems. There are probably millions of steel-impeller machines out there. But how many plastic-impeller machines are in use?
> 
> And for normal use, especially when still young, they're probably fine. My concern is when you suck in a big chunk of ice, or ingest a newspaper. And things will get worse over time, as the plastic ages, and becomes more brittle.


Fair nuff. I'll wait until we start seeing massive failures before I call it a failure. Metal fatigues over time, something plastic doesn't do.

On another note, what do you do in plastics, wondin' if I can tap your brain on what I'm trying to build. PM me if it's OK.

Thanks


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## sscotsman (Dec 8, 2010)

jsup said:


> If I could build a snowblower out of plastic, I'd do it in a heartbeat. No rust, no chipping paint, stronger, lighter, lasts forever. Can be drilled, tapped, shaped in all different ways.


No rust - yes.
No chipping paint - wrong, plenty of paint falls off plenty of plastic.
Stronger - than metal? 98% of the time, no.
Lighter - yes.
Lasts forever - absolutely not.
Can be drilled, tapped, shaped in all different ways - yes.

You got 3 out of 6 correct, your grade is 50%. That would be a fail. 

Scot


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

sscotsman said:


> No rust - yes.
> No chipping paint - wrong, plenty of paint falls off plenty of plastic.
> Stronger - than metal? 98% of the time, no.
> Lighter - yes.
> ...


Plastic doesn't get painted, so......just manufacture it in the color of choice, the color goes all the way through.

Stronger than metal......yes. The plastic that would be used to make a snowblower housing would be stronger than metal. I'm not talking about coke bottles and red Solo cups. Bridges are made of FRP, bridges that carry significant weight.

Lasts forever..... Well, since it doesn't rust, it will out last metal. Why do you think re-cycling started? To get plastic out of landfills. Why is that? 

So I'd say 3/6 is better than 0/3.  But again I'd contest the grade, and call it 100%. 

I don't understand this irrational fear of plastic. Executed correctly it's a great material.


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## Kiss4aFrog (Nov 3, 2013)

jsup said:


> Stronger than metal......yes. The plastic that would be used to make a snowblower housing would be stronger than metal.


Wouldn't that add weight as you'd need to make it thicker to be as strong ?? In my mind without any science to back it up I'm thinking the plastic is going to be easier to crack at -20 compared to metal.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

Kiss4aFrog said:


> Wouldn't that add weight as you'd need to make it thicker to be as strong ?? In my mind without any science to back it up I'm thinking the plastic is going to be easier to crack at -20 compared to metal.


That would be a question for a plastics engineer as it relates to the type of plastic chosen for the application. I guess some would, some wouldn't. 

FRP is used in outdoor applications in cold weather quite frequently. Ladders for example.


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## vinnycom (Nov 6, 2017)

at a a thickness metal is stronger than plastic on an industrial scale usage and manufacturing proceses, unless youre talking about some space age plastic or carbon fibre than cost would make it prohibitive, still dont think even those plastics can handle the abrasive nature of a snowblowerl. cars are still made of mostly metal because of the need for thin strong materials that dont crack or fatigue easily under stress or load


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## sscotsman (Dec 8, 2010)

jsup said:


> Plastic doesn't get painted, so......just manufacture it in the color of choice, the color goes all the way through.
> 
> Stronger than metal......yes. The plastic that would be used to make a snowblower housing would be stronger than metal. I'm not talking about coke bottles and red Solo cups. Bridges are made of FRP, bridges that carry significant weight.
> 
> ...


Originally you made general statements, "plastic is stronger than metal", "paint doesnt chip off plastic", etc.

Then, after being proven wrong, you changed the statements, decided to pick and choose the specific examples to give yourself a 100% score.. :icon-thumbsdown:



> I don't understand this irrational fear of plastic. Executed correctly it's a great material.


Yes...but..thats another "best case example/ perfect world" statement.. and in the case of plastic impellers on snowblowers, that doesnt apply..We had a thread here about plastic impellers a few years ago..I saw a plastic impeller in person at a Sears store, on the bottom-of-the-line cheapest Craftsman 2-stage. That is absolutely not "executed correctly"  and in that case, I highly doubt the plastic impeller was more expensive to produce than the metal impeller..its very cheap, absolutely done for cost cutting. It certaintly is not better than the metal impeller.

Scot


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## Jackmels (Feb 18, 2013)

Since it is so Widely Used Today, Nobody Notices Plastic Until it Breaks on Them....I flushed the Crapper the Other Day, and the Plastic Handle Broke. Replace it with a Metal One. Plastic Snow Shove Cracked. Plastic Choke Control Tower on Briggs Engine Broke, but I was able to Superglue it, and that's just the Recent Stuff....Did I mention How Much I like Plastic? Rant Over.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

vinnycom said:


> at a a thickness metal is stronger than plastic on an industrial scale usage and manufacturing proceses, unless youre talking about some space age plastic or carbon fibre than cost would make it prohibitive, still dont think even those plastics can handle the abrasive nature of a snowblowerl. cars are still made of mostly metal because of the need for thin strong materials that dont crack or fatigue easily under stress or load


Metals are cheaper. I looked into doing carbon fiber for some of my products, now I'm looking at FRP, which is poor man's carbon fiber. It's not THAT expensive. It's used on ladders. Those colored ends. I think FRP would work fine, but I'm no engineer. 

Saturn.  Plastic fenders and such.

High end cars are using carbon fiber frames. BMW, for example, is using sections of carbon fiber. They are doing it because it's stiffer than steel, and improve handling.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

sscotsman said:


> Originally you made general statements, "plastic is stronger than metal", "paint doesnt chip off plastic", etc.
> 
> Then, after being proven wrong, you changed the statements, decided to pick and choose the specific examples to give yourself a 100% score.. :icon-thumbsdown:


Context. I wouldn't possibly take a position that coke bottle plastic is stronger than steel




> Yes...but..thats another "best case example/ perfect world" statement.. and in the case of plastic impellers on snowblowers, that doesnt apply..We had a thread here about plastic impellers a few years ago..I saw a plastic impeller in person at a Sears store, on the bottom-of-the-line cheapest Craftsman 2-stage. That is absolutely not "executed correctly"  and in that case, I highly doubt the plastic impeller was more expensive to produce than the metal impeller..its very cheap, absolutely done for cost cutting. It certaintly is not better than the metal impeller.
> 
> Scot


Could be. But that's another discussion. It's not the material that's the problem. It' how it was executed. They can have just as sloppy of workmanship with metal.


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## Sid (Jan 31, 2014)

Plastic will fail. An airliner crashed in NYC [Rockaways} after leaving JFK. Alright, it got into a previous jet's vortex. They blamed it on "pilot error". But the tail vertical piece FAILED, why? Because it was frp. Just about any metal will stretch, or bend before it fails, frp will not. Just saying.
Sid


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## FlamingSpaghetti (Jan 8, 2018)

As for my general opinion, something that's spinning at around 600 to 1200 RPM and carrying a substantial load should not be made out of plastic. Plastic may not rust, bend/twist or need to be welded together, but most plastics if I'm not mistaken degrade over time. While they may be strong today, 10 years or so from now, they may not be. Whether it be from sun/UV damage or temperature, it seems like it's inevitable. I've even seen this happen to glass fiber reinforced nylon. Metal is definitely the way to go in this application. Let's not forget the weight. Loss of inertia on a plastic impeller may impact performance.


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## Cardo111 (Feb 16, 2015)

I can't say for sure whether or not this plastic impeller would fail. In this application was likely a cost-cutting measure as it is in an MTD a low cost leader in terms of "mainstream" manufacturers.

I know that Simplicity's efforts to incorporate plastic transmissions in some of their lower end models was/is a failure based on user reviews on the company website and Donyboy 73's vid I attached below. Then again in certain applications Toro seems to have done a good job incorporating extensive use of polymers in their machines and they are said to perform very well.


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## AriensPro1128 (Nov 9, 2014)

Do we have a second Stuart/Stewart as a member? He has gone from plain plastic to giving examples of carbon fiber. I am no expert but I think carbon fiber is more expensive than metal to manufacture with.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

AriensPro1128 said:


> Do we have a second Stuart/Stewart as a member? He has gone from plain plastic to giving examples of carbon fiber. I am no expert but I think carbon fiber is more expensive than metal to manufacture with.


It is. It is also a type of plastic. That's the point, because something falls in the "plastic" family, doesn't mean it's crap.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

Let's get back to the original question. How many plastic impeller failures is anyone aware of here? 

Bottom line is, I can't find any, so it must not be a problem.


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## vinnycom (Nov 6, 2017)

jsup said:


> Let's get back to the original question. How many plastic impeller failures is anyone aware of here?
> 
> Bottom line is, I can't find any, so it must not be a problem.


what percentage of machines have them, and are they as old as my 30yr+ old all metal machine w/its original body still intact.
u can fix a metal impeller, can u fix a plastic one?


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

vinnycom said:


> what percentage of machines have them, and are they as old as my 30yr+ old all metal machine w/its original body still intact.
> u can fix a metal impeller, can u fix a plastic one?


IDK. It's a Craftsman/MTD. I have to believe that MTD has them in their sister labels too.

How do you balance a repaired metal impeller?? (off topic) is Balance important?


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

I didn't try to balance my impeller after making & installing my impeller kit. I did try to cut the rubber pieces to matching sizes, to at least minimize the impact on balance. 

If you wanted to balance it, because you felt significant vibration, the "simplest" approach might be to add a little weight to one blade, then move it to the next, until the vibration is reduced. This is kind of a hack approach, but it requires minimal disassembly. 

Or, for a better approach with more work, you can pull the augers assembly out, split the gearcase, and put the shaft on some level blocks (or a countertop, etc). Let the impeller shaft rotate until you find the area of the impeller that settles at the bottom. That's your heavy spot. Either grind some steel off the low area, or weld a little onto the others, until it's better-balanced.


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## classiccat (Mar 1, 2014)

RedOctobyr said:


> I didn't try to balance my impeller after making & installing my impeller kit. I did try to cut the rubber pieces to matching sizes, to at least minimize the impact on balance.
> 
> If you wanted to balance it, because you felt significant vibration, the "simplest" approach might be to add a little weight to one blade, then move it to the next, until the vibration is reduced. This is kind of a hack approach, but it requires minimal disassembly.
> 
> Or, for a better approach with more work, you can pull the augers assembly out, split the gearcase, and put the shaft on some level blocks (or a countertop, etc). Let the impeller shaft rotate until you find the area of the impeller that settles at the bottom. That's your heavy spot. Either grind some steel off the low area, or weld a little onto the others, until it's better-balanced.


one thing to consider, the impeller is constantly out of balance as it's collecting and discharging snow load.


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## FlamingSpaghetti (Jan 8, 2018)

A broken plastic impeller would be impossible to repair. Once plastic is broken or fractured, there is really no effective way of welding or gluing it back together. Not in the same way you can with metal ones at least. Centrifugal force comes into play as well and I don't think any sort of glue, adhesive or epoxy would hold up. Metal impellers are fairly easy to balance. Take the impeller off and mount it to a prop balancer, find the heaviest spot and add a bolt and a couple of washers to add some weight until the impeller rotates freely without leaning to one side. Weld them in place, grind a little off and you're done.

Injection molded plastic is much harder to balance as it tends to distort over time. I guess being so light weight it doesn't really matter but breaking is definitely an issue.


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## Shryp (Jan 1, 2011)

I have never heard of failures of plastic impellers. It is, however, recommend not to install impeller kits on them.

MTD also tried using plastic wheels. Those got recalled because some of them were exploding. I think that was partly because people were over inflating the wheels though.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

FlamingSpaghetti said:


> A broken plastic impeller would be impossible to repair. Once plastic is broken or fractured, there is really no effective way of welding or gluing it back together.


Which would be a problem if they were unreliable and breaking left and right. I have seen no evidence to support that. If you have to take it apart to repair, why not just replace, it's less work. 

To say this is an admission that metal fails. It's up in the air if plastic fails at all. I'd like to see the MTBF for both plastic and metal.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

Shryp said:


> I have never heard of failures of plastic impellers.


Me either, but I have seen where a lot of people had metal ones fail, rust to the shaft, etc..


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## FlamingSpaghetti (Jan 8, 2018)

jsup said:


> Which would be a problem if they were unreliable and breaking left and right. I have seen no evidence to support that. If you have to take it apart to repair, why not just replace, it's less work.
> 
> To say this is an admission that metal fails. It's up in the air if plastic fails at all. I'd like to see the MTBF for both plastic and metal.


I honestly don't think they've really been around long enough to fail catastrophically, but knowing how plastic reacts over time, they will not last nearly as long as a metal one that has been cared for. Metal rusts, sure, but that can be prevented. Plastic degrades over time and for the most part this can't be prevented. I've seen this in vintage electronics as well as vintage BMX parts, specifically the glass fiber nylon wheels used. They develop cracks just due to age and become unusable when it gets bad. Once plastic has reached that stage in it's life where it becomes brittle, it's all down hill from there.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

FlamingSpaghetti said:


> I honestly don't think they've really been around long enough to fail catastrophically, but knowing how plastic reacts over time, they will not last nearly as long as a metal one that has been cared for. Metal rusts, sure, but that can be prevented. Plastic degrades over time and for the most part this can't be prevented. I've seen this in vintage electronics as well as vintage BMX parts, specifically the glass fiber nylon wheels used. They develop cracks just due to age and become unusable when it gets bad. Once plastic has reached that stage in it's life where it becomes brittle, it's all down hill from there.


Speculation, let's not jump to conclusions. Let's keep an eye on it and see what happens. We don't know what kind of plastic they are using, there are literally 100s of types of plastic. Time will tell.


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## sscotsman (Dec 8, 2010)

FlamingSpaghetti said:


> A broken plastic impeller would be impossible to repair. Once plastic is broken or fractured, there is really no effective way of welding or gluing it back together.





jsup said:


> To say this is an admission that metal fails. It's up in the air if plastic fails at all.


Jsup, you make a lot of very questionable leaps of logic! 
yes, FS "admitted that metal fails" because he said that metal can be welded but plastic cant..
You then took that statement, which was about *ALL metal, ever*, then used that to suggest "you admitted that metal fails, we dont know that plastic fails, ever." 
FS was talking about all metals in a general sense..not metal snowblower impellers specifically.
You then switched to talking about plastic snowblower impellers only, not all plastic in general..



jsup said:


> It's up in the air if plastic fails at all.


using your exact reasoning, I can prove that yes, plastic does in fact fail, all the time..here you go:




























lain:

Scot


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## FlamingSpaghetti (Jan 8, 2018)

jsup said:


> Speculation, let's not jump to conclusions. Let's keep an eye on it and see what happens. We don't know what kind of plastic they are using, there are literally 100s of types of plastic. Time will tell.


The plastic used on these is most likely polypropylene, recycle number 5. I'd be surprised if they went out of their way and used glass fiber impregnated PP or nylon. I will see if I can confirm this.

Edit: Confirmed PP #5 used on these impellers.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

sscotsman said:


> Jsup, you make a lot of very questionable leaps of logic!
> yes, FS "admitted that metal fails" because he said that metal can be welded but plastic cant..
> You then took that statement, which was about *ALL metal, ever*, then used that to suggest "you admitted that metal fails, we dont know that plastic fails, ever."
> FS was talking about all metals in a general sense..not metal snowblower impellers specifically.
> ...



I'm not taking a position that plastic is indestructible. I'm taking a position that in this specific application it hasn't been proven inadequate. Maybe it will, maybe it won't. IDK.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

FlamingSpaghetti said:


> The plastic used on these is most likely polypropylene, recycle number 5. I'd be surprised if they went out of their way and used glass fiber impregnated PP or nylon. I will see if I can confirm this.
> 
> Edit: Confirmed PP #5 used on these impellers.


OK, stipulated. What does that mean in this application? We just don't know. Could suck, could be OK. Time will tell.


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## FlamingSpaghetti (Jan 8, 2018)

jsup said:


> OK, stipulated. What does that mean in this application? We just don't know. Could suck, could be OK. Time will tell.


What it means is it's mainly for cost cutting. Low cost, the same stuff soda bottle caps and tic-tac container tops are made of. It's a relatively light weight low density economical plastic. It has it's uses, sure, but I don't think an impeller for a snow blower is one of them. Seems like they've been discontinued anyway. As far as I can tell, MTD put them on their machines in 2004.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

FlamingSpaghetti said:


> What it means is it's mainly for cost cutting. Low cost, the same stuff soda bottle caps and tic-tac container tops are made of. It's a relatively light weight low density economical plastic. It has it's uses, sure, but I don't think an impeller for a snow blower is one of them. Seems like they've been discontinued anyway. As far as I can tell, MTD put them on their machines in 2004.


Ok, so there's almost 15 years of experience to go by, and I have to assume they sold a lot of machines under different labels using those impellers.

And yet, I've yet to see a rash of failures, as far as I can tell. I've seen people take shots at MTD, but NEVER about the plastic impeller. 

You'd think in 15 years if this was a problem, it would have been exposed by now.


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## sscotsman (Dec 8, 2010)

jsup said:


> I'm not taking a position that plastic is indestructible. I'm taking a position that in this specific application it hasn't been proven inadequate. Maybe it will, maybe it won't. IDK.


Right..but you also took the position that "sometimes metal, any metal, needs to be welded, therefore metal fails, but plastic doesnt" 

Just trying to keep it real, 

Scot


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

sscotsman said:


> Right..but you also took the position that "sometimes metal, any metal, needs to be welded, therefore metal fails, but plastic doesnt"
> 
> Just trying to keep it real,
> 
> Scot


In some applications that is true, and as it relates to this specific application it seems to be true. 

Thumbs up smiley here...


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## FlamingSpaghetti (Jan 8, 2018)

jsup said:


> Ok, so there's almost 15 years of experience to go by, and I have to assume they sold a lot of machines under different labels using those impellers.
> 
> And yet, I've yet to see a rash of failures, as far as I can tell. I've seen people take shots at MTD, but NEVER about the plastic impeller.
> 
> You'd think in 15 years if this was a problem, it would have been exposed by now.


Honestly, I can't even remember seeing an MTD machine with a plastic impeller. The one I have has a 3 vane metal impeller and the previous MTD made machine I had before my current MTD was much newer and also had a 3 vane metal impeller. I'm curious about their durability as much as the next guy but I can't even find a complete machine in my general area that uses one of these things. Does anyone else have any experience with these at all?


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## Cardo111 (Feb 16, 2015)

jsup said:


> If I could build a snowblower out of plastic, I'd do it in a heartbeat. No rust, no chipping paint, stronger, lighter, lasts forever. Can be drilled, tapped, shaped in all different ways.
> 
> I know that some members don't like to display the make and model of their personal machines, perhaps they don't want to appear "brand bias."
> 
> Just out of curiosity what make and model snowblower do you own?


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

Cardo111 said:


> I know that some members don't like to display the make and model of their personal machines, perhaps they don't want to appear "brand bias."
> 
> Just out of curiosity what make and model snowblower do you own?


I had an MTD for 20 years, 1997-2017. I purchased a Simplicity Signature Pro. The 1524P.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

FlamingSpaghetti said:


> Honestly, I can't even remember seeing an MTD machine with a plastic impeller. The one I have has a 3 vane metal impeller and the previous MTD made machine I had before my current MTD was much newer and also had a 3 vane metal impeller. I'm curious about their durability as much as the next guy but I can't even find a complete machine in my general area that uses one of these things. Does anyone else have any experience with these at all?


I'd like some first hand information too. That would be cool. Also, I wonder...do they STILL make them plastic?


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## sscotsman (Dec 8, 2010)

I know of at least three 2-stage snowblowers with plastic impellers, all very low-end:

A Craftsman 522, 5hp 22" bucket, model 247.88700.
A small Yardman/MTD. (dont know the model #)
A Snowjoe, a 100% made in China machine.

There are likely more..

Scot


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## FlamingSpaghetti (Jan 8, 2018)

jsup said:


> I'd like some first hand information too. That would be cool. Also, I wonder...do they STILL make them plastic?


As far as I can tell, no. My newer Troy-Bilt machine that I had before my much older MTD has a metal one and that one is post 2004. Never seen any smaller or low end machines with them in the stores.



sscotsman said:


> I know of at least three 2-stage snowblowers with plastic impellers, all very low-end:
> 
> A Craftsman 522, 5hp 22" bucket, model 247.88700.
> A small Yardman/MTD. (dont know the model #)
> ...


Have you seen any in person lately though? I don't think the Craftsman is even made like that anymore.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

Perhaps the reason they stopped making them is because there were failures? IDK. I'd really like to know if there were failures before passing judgement.


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## Cardo111 (Feb 16, 2015)

jsup: I had an MTD for many years as well (1995 640F, sold it 4 years ago, still ran well, though it had a lot of surface rust) and the polymer chute was fine, just sprayed it with silicone spray once a year, it never really clogged. Personally I am still leary of a plastic impeller at this point, just seems like it can distort in certain conditions. It may be my prejudices towards plastic being of lesser quality and cheaper in many cases. Even the Toro chutes which seem awesome and are easy to use for a mechanically controlled chute. I have read they can stick in really cold conditions according to a vid I watched on YouTube today. I was always a fan of the Simplicity Pro Series, nice machines and built like tanks. Best of luck with it.


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## FlamingSpaghetti (Jan 8, 2018)

Cardo111 said:


> I had an MTD for many years as well (1995 640F) and the polymer chute was fine, just sprayed it with silicone spray once a year, it never really clogged. Personally I am still leary of a plastic impeller at this point, just seems like it can distort in certain conditions. It maybe my prejudices towards plastic being of lesser quality and cheaper in many cases. Even the Toro chutes which seem often I have read can stick in really cold conditions according to a vid I watched on YouTube today. I was always a fan of the Simplicity Pro Series, nice machines and built like tanks. Best of luck with it.


My MTD also has that polymer chute. Never cared for it and I hated how much it flexed in heavy snow, but it did the job faithfully for years, even before I had it. I just can't see the same material being used on something that does almost all of the work while spinning at a high RPM. That being said, I've never owned a metal chute snow blower until now. I have yet to really put both my Craftsman II and my Ariens to use but I'm looking forward to the next big snow storm.


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## Jatoxico (Jan 6, 2018)

What I haven't heard is what is the advantage of plastic impellers?


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## classiccat (Mar 1, 2014)

A quick google search shows that John Deere used plastic in their _47" and _54" blowers around 2010 (unclear for how long).

I don't know if it's the same grade of plastic utilized by MTD ...perhaps there may be more mode(s) of failure highlighted in the tractor forums than snowblower forums. 

How good is the 54 Snow Blower with Plastic Impeller


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## classiccat (Mar 1, 2014)

Here's one that chipped/broke after 1 bad storm.


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## sscotsman (Dec 8, 2010)

FlamingSpaghetti said:


> As far as I can tell, no. My newer Troy-Bilt machine that I had before my much older MTD has a metal one and that one is post 2004. Never seen any smaller or low end machines with them in the stores.
> 
> 
> Have you seen any in person lately though? I don't think the Craftsman is even made like that anymore.


No, not lately..the only one I ever saw in person was the 522 Craftsman..and that at least 5 years ago. Taking a look at the current Craftsman snowblower webpage, they dont have the 22-incher anymore, the current bottom of the line model is a 24", and the specs say it has a metal impeller:

Sears.com

Looks like Craftsman at least has stopped using plastic impellers..using the methods of deductive reasoning we have learned in this thread  that can mean several possible things:

1. We never heard anything bad about Craftsman plastic impellers, therefore they were great.
2. They stopped using them because they broke a lot.
3. They didnt break, but people wouldnt buy them anyway because: plastic impeller.

And three or four other possible reasons..

Scot


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

FlamingSpaghetti said:


> My MTD also has that polymer chute. Never cared for it and I hated how much it flexed in heavy snow, but it did the job faithfully for years, even before I had it. I just can't see the same material being used on something that does almost all of the work while spinning at a high RPM. That being said, I've never owned a metal chute snow blower until now. I have yet to really put both my Craftsman II and my Ariens to use but I'm looking forward to the next big snow storm.


The worst part of the plastic chute, is it never stayed where I put it, it always rode up to the highest point, not because it was plastic, because the design was terrible.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

sscotsman said:


> No, not lately..the only one I ever saw in person was the 522 Craftsman..and that at least 5 years ago. Taking a look at the current Craftsman snowblower webpage, they dont have the 22-incher anymore, the current bottom of the line model is a 24", and the specs say it has a metal impeller:
> 
> Sears.com
> 
> ...


Missed it by "this much"...;D 










C'mon Scot, that's not a fair representation of what I said.


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## FearlessFront (Aug 18, 2016)

I would never spend money or use a machine with a plastic impeller. MTD is already the lowest company making/selling snowblowers in the U.S. just ahead of the super cheap Chinese brands that have been identified to stay away from. For some they may last a reasonable amount of time, but they simply will not last 40+ years like many of the well built american machines like the older Ariens.
These plastic impellers have been around out least 15 years already, as I had two of the smaller MTD made machines come my way, one was a Sears Craftsman with the made in Canada sticker on it (thats where the frame was made at that time, now I believe they are made down in Mexico), it had a 2006 Tecumseh 5 hp L head. I removed the engine from it and sold it and also removed its little cheap 3 speed transmission and sold that, to someone who had one where the trans had already given up.
The other one I had was still new, but the Pulleys on it were so cheap that one of them had came apart like a tin can, 5 different pieces of metal all mangled, which also ruined the belt when it happened. I put a better Pulley on it, new belt and sold it on down the road (one other thing I noticed is that the pulley hooked to the arm did not line up right with the main pulley so I had to persuade the metal arm a little, I heard they have since corrected that issue). Both machines were smaller 22 inch wide with about 5 horsepower engines, the newer one had a Chinese Powermore right around the same size the old 5 hp Tecumseh was. These smaller machines are good for folks who do not want very big machines, great for women to use because they are light and simple to use as well as the teenager at home from school, when school is cancelled due to snow. They are cheaper machines, you could get one of them for about $399 new, so for someone looking for a light weight machine that did not put a great deal of money into it and has it for their driveway, its still beats a shovel. For many of us that would never use a machine like that, they are good for salvaging good parts to sell and make a little pocket change as well as re-sell these machines when they break down and we buy them super cheap an then re-sell them for a margin after repairing them. That is what I have found those machines to be useful for, the older one in particular with the Tecumseh. (The one that had the Tecumseh on it, that engine was still in like new condition, so at that time those engines would have well outlasted the machine itself, now they have Powermore engines that would not last as long as the Tecumseh would have). Those machines also have no belly pan, the entire gearbox is exposed from below on those machine's. That was another thing I really did not like. I took the round wingnut knobs that held the handle bars together on one of those and use them to hold my drift cutters on my machine's, which works much better than regular nuts that you have to use a wrench to get on and off, now I can twist my drift cutters on and off fast and easy when I need them or don't need them. That is what I found use for those machines.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

We get it, you don't like MTD. 

But I have a question.....how can 5 pulleys come apart if they were metal? That only happens to plastic...

Never mind, that's rhetorical, and yes, sarcastic.


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## Cardo111 (Feb 16, 2015)

Just in case 70 posts wasn't enough for The Great Plastic Impeller Debate. Here is #71. I figured some of you would find Scotty Kilmer's opinions on plastic parts as a lifelong auto tech interesting:


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

I'd rather hear it from an engineer, but that's me, I'm silly that way.


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## sscotsman (Dec 8, 2010)

jsup said:


> I'd rather hear it from an engineer, but that's me, I'm silly that way.


Translation: "If it disagrees with my opinion, even when the person is very clearly an expert in the field, I will still find a way to make it not good enough, raise the bar to a ridiculous level, ("only an engineer is good enough") just so I can still be right in my own mind..even if it's totally obvious to everyone else that im reeeeeallly reaching just so I wont have admit I might possibly be wrong"

Jsup, just FYI, you have now reached that level..it would be better to just say nothing in reply to a video like that..you arent helping your case, you are actually hurting it, because it's now very clear you are just making up ridiculous requirements for proof that plastic is worse than metal in many instances..you are coming across as "no matter what, I wont believe it!"..you are just making yourself look bad..

and yes, I have begun to "single you out", more than anyone else in this thread..that is because you are becoming really annoying. you need to tone it down with the one-liner replies that only say "I dont believe it"..you have said you dont believe it enough times, we dont need to hear it any more.

Scot


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## nwcove (Mar 2, 2015)

jsup said:


> I'd rather hear it from an engineer, but that's me, I'm silly that way.


Isnt a mechanic an engine-eer?🤓


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## deezlfan (Nov 8, 2017)

> I'd rather hear it from an engineer, but that's me, I'm silly that way.


Agree. How he can be considered an expert in the field of plastics in any way based on that video is beyond me. He set out to produce a diatribe and that is what it is. 

This thread has taken on a bit of mob mentality and even a normally extremely helpful moderator has gotten very hot under the collar. I can't see why 10 people that steadfastly state there is no other material than steel to build impellers out of are allowed to shout down the few that see it differently. If I am mistaken forgive me, but I thought this was a discussion forum.


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## sscotsman (Dec 8, 2010)

deezlfan said:


> This thread has taken on a bit of mob mentality and even a normally extremely helpful moderator has gotten very hot under the collar. I can't see why 10 people that steadfastly state there is no other material than steel to build impellers out of are allowed to shout down the few that see it differently. If I am mistaken forgive me, but I thought this was a discussion forum.


Im not "hot under the collar"..im just getting annoyed that jsup has to comment on *every* post that suggests that metal might be better than plastic..early on, he made some good posts in defense of plastic..thats fine..but now he just replys to every post with "nope, I disagree", "nope, thats wrong", "nope, im still not wrong", "no matter hat anyone says, im still not wrong"..its just gotten annoying because its too much.

So I asked him to tone it down..



deezlfan said:


> I can't see why 10 people that steadfastly state there is no other material than steel to build impellers out of are allowed to shout down the few that see it differently.


Thats not what's happening..if anything, its the opposite..one person continues to shout-down anyone who disagrees with his pro-plastic stand. all im saying is, thats enough of that, you have made your point..20 times..you dont have to do after every post.

and in the spirit of "having said it enough times", I wont mention it again. 

Scot


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## Jatoxico (Jan 6, 2018)

In this thread it has been suggested that a plastic impeller would/could be more expensive to produce than a metal one because you would need to use a high quality material to approach the durability you obtain with metal.

I asked what the advantage to such an impeller would be but no one was able to say (or more likely you all ignored me!). I can't think of one excepting maybe initial "slickness" as in anti-stick. It's telling that these were used in lower end machines. A high quality plastic that could match the durability of metal is probably possible but at what cost and to what advantage?

It was said that we should take a wait and see approach. I'll wait and see how my neighbors holds up.


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## 10953 (Sep 4, 2017)

Jatoxico

plastic's today come from space age composites,you just said it slicker/lighter, in many cases more durable . they can be molded into more compound curves than metal can ever be bent into. made to take one heck of a beating, i personally think we will never see it as the auger . how long will it be before the auger housing is all space age reinforced plastic ? 
again in my years as a master auto tech we had to adjust to change,open a car or trucks hood and look at all the plastic . this is the 21st century no longer the 20th. time to get used to the new world. 


than maybe it's time for scot to put this thread to sleep


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## jrom (Jan 10, 2014)

I thought it odd that no one responded either – it's a good question.

I don't have enough manufacturing/design experience to make a "qualified" response, but I've seen enough plastic parts break or breakdown way too fast over the years, especially ones used in extreme zones (temperature extremes, high impact areas, exposure to UV and/or chemical).

Besides cost cutting (and the other reasons mentioned in this thread, like anti-corrosion), seems to me one of the main reasons it's used is to reduce weight, like in auto manufacturing. I'd like to actually have a heavier snowblower, as long as the manufacturer works on good ways for the end-user to control that weight.

Even with current synthetic compounds, I wouldn't want a plastic impeller in my snowblower.



Jatoxico said:


> ...I asked what the advantage to such an impeller would be but no one was able to say (or more likely you all ignored me!). I can't think of one excepting maybe initial "slickness" as in anti-stick. It's telling that these were used in lower end machines. A high quality plastic that could match the durability of metal is probably possible but at what cost and to what advantage?
> 
> It was said that we should take a wait and see approach. I'll wait and see how my neighbors holds up.


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## Jatoxico (Jan 6, 2018)

87 powershift said:


> plastic's today come from space age composites,you just said it slicker/lighter, in many cases more durable . they can be molded into more compound curves than metal can ever be bent into. made to take one heck of a beating, i personally think we will never see it as the auger . how long will it be before the auger housing is all space age reinforced plastic ?
> again in my years as a master auto tech we had to adjust to change,open a car or trucks hood and look at all the plastic . this is the 21st century no longer the 20th. time to get used to the new world.


Hi 87, new around here but glad to see you're on the mend!

As I said I don't doubt you _could_ make a plastic impeller but if the cost is higher than metal w/o there being a significant advantage then I don't think they'll be one on any machine I'm willing to pay for. These are after all pretty low tech machines, at least at the homeowner, light commercial level.


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## Cardo111 (Feb 16, 2015)

deezlfan said:


> Agree. How he can be considered an expert in the field of plastics in any way based on that video is beyond me. He set out to produce a diatribe and that is what it is.
> 
> This thread has taken on a bit of mob mentality and even a normally extremely helpful moderator has gotten very hot under the collar. I can't see why 10 people that steadfastly state there is no other material than steel to build impellers out of are allowed to shout down the few that see it differently. If I am mistaken forgive me, but I thought this was a discussion forum.


Scotty Kilmer is a very experienced mechanic who is well trained and also happens to be well educated (additionally he is said to be a highly skilled machinist, likely very familiar with parts, trying to discredit him as unqualified to have an educated opinion/theory because of his lack of plastic engineering credentials wouldn't be fair). Disregarding his decades of real world repair experience.

I thought that Scotty did a good job in the vid explaining that plastics are often used by manufacturers as a cost cutting measure and he gives examples why. Do you think a low cost provider like MTD used/uses a plastic impeller in certain machines because it costs them more money and they wanted to provide their more demanding customers who are paying a premium for top quality with a better performing machine, like Honda despite the additional cost? I'm not Intending to knock anyone who buys MTD products they are often adequate for many users in many conditions who don't want to spend a lot of money on a snowblower.

This is just my opinion others may agree some may disagree: at this point a plastic impeller on a snowblower is likely a cost-cutting measure and probably will not hold up as well over time as a steel one. This is a crucial part for performance in a snowblower that is often subjected to harsh conditions like ice and highly corrosive road salt/chemicals.


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## jrom (Jan 10, 2014)

I was typing as your were posting.

I'm in the middle of repairing the front bumper, grille, supports and inner fender liner of my 2015 Corolla – all wonderful plastic.

My wife hit a rather large chuck of frozen road ice that dropped off a big truck she was following and did it ever tear up those parts. It even broke two anchor points for the grille/bumper that are attached to the headlight (a $525 OEM part) there's no way I'm replacing that. I'm going to make a steel bracket that I'll attach to the top radiator support.

Luckily, I won't need to paint anything.

Time for me to get a good garage heater (my cheapie small burner that sits on a 20 lb propane tank doesn't cut it). The temps have been in the low teens all week. :icon-cold:



87 powershift said:


> Jatoxico
> 
> plastic's today come from space age composites,you just said it slicker/lighter, in many cases more durable . they can be molded into more compound curves than metal can ever be bent into. made to take one heck of a beating, i personally think we will never see it as the auger . how long will it be before the auger housing is all space age reinforced plastic ?
> again in my years as a master auto tech we had to adjust to change,open a car or trucks hood and look at all the plastic . this is the 21st century no longer the 20th. time to get used to the new world.
> ...


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## sscotsman (Dec 8, 2010)

Jatoxico said:


> In this thread it has been suggested that a plastic impeller would/could be more expensive to produce than a metal one because you would need to use a high quality material to approach the durability you obtain with metal.


That is true in theory..but..there is zero reason or evidence to suspect that the plastic snowblower impellers that we know of actually are "more expensive to produce than a metal one because you would need to use a high quality material to approach the durability you obtain with metal.". The snowblower models that the plastic impellers have appeared on suggest that has *not* actually happened..because they all have been very low-end models, the cheapest models in the lineup..which means its FAR more likely that these particular plastic imepllers are in fact cheaper to produce than metal impellers, and they were made for these particular machines for one reason only: because they are cheaper. and if that is the case, that would mean they do not approach the durability of metal, because the stated theory does not apply.

If the plastic snowblower impellers were in fact "more expensive to produce than a metal one because you would need to use a high quality material to approach the durability you obtain with metal." we would expect to see them on the TOP of the line models..but we dont see that..we see them only on the bottom-of-the-line ultra-cheap models.



Jatoxico said:


> I asked what the advantage to such an impeller would be but no one was able to say (or more likely you all ignored me!).


You havent recieved an answer because there *is* no answer!  there is no known advantage in this case..because its 99% likely the only reason they are used is cost cutting, because they are cheaper than metal. So the answer to "what is the advantage?' is: the only advantage is to the manufacturer..there is likely no advantage to the user.

Scot


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## Jatoxico (Jan 6, 2018)

sscotsman said:


> That is true in theory..but..there is zero reason or evidence to suspect that the plastic snowblower impellers that we know of actually are "more expensive to produce than a metal one because you would need to use a high quality material to approach the durability you obtain with metal.". The snowblower models that the plastic impellers have appeared on suggest that has *not* actually happened..because they all have been very low-end models, the cheapest models in the lineup..which means its FAR more likely that these particular plastic imepllers are in fact cheaper to produce than metal impellers, and they were made for these particular machines for one reason only: because they are cheaper. and if that is the case, that would mean they do not approach the durability of metal, because the stated theory does not apply.
> 
> If the plastic snowblower impellers were in fact "more expensive to produce than a metal one because you would need to use a high quality material to approach the durability you obtain with metal." we would expect to see them on the TOP of the line models..but we dont see that..we see them only on the bottom-of-the-line ultra-cheap models.
> 
> ...


My implied points exactly.


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## sscotsman (Dec 8, 2010)

yep..I think its pretty obvious what is going on with the plastic snowblower impellers..
"high quality, durable, expensive plastic", while it does exist, simply does not apply in this case..
the snowblowers themselves, where they sit on the spectrum of models, prove that..
and Craftsman stopped using them completely..which also suggests the lower cost wasnt worth it.
if it was a great idea, they would still be doing it..

Scot


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## 10953 (Sep 4, 2017)

jrom said:


> I was typing as your were posting.
> 
> I'm in the middle of repairing the front bumper, grille, supports and inner fender liner of my 2015 Corolla – all wonderful plastic.
> 
> ...


hear that loudly! plastic costs big time 
care to by a headlamp for a 2013 ford escape? try $900.00 Hl cost more than the hood. when my wife had a issue with a illegal without a dl or insurance 
as to impellers i'm open, been around plastic car parts since 1962 on one called a corvette back when no body shop would touch them till they fund they could make more money fixing them . at least a plastic impeller is better than plastic brake rotors being seen


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## jrom (Jan 10, 2014)

Youch! on Escape headlamp cost.

I'm not anti-plastic, just noticing how fast and easy some of it can break. I agree about an impeller being better than a rotor.

Between my dad (the GM model maker) and one of my brothers (retired engineer at GM), they mentioned how Chevy made a couple of vette's in Kevlar (not a concept car, but not pre-production either, just experimental). Cost was way too high to go forward. I've got to ask my bro if those cars are around somewhere or if they were destroyed. I've never read about them anywhere.



87 powershift said:


> hear that loudly! plastic costs big time
> care to by a headlamp for a 2013 ford escape? try $900.00 Hl cost more than the hood. when my wife had a issue with a illegal without a dl or insurance
> as to impellers i'm open, been around plastic car parts since 1962 on one called a corvette back when no body shop would touch them till they fund they could make more money fixing them . at least a plastic impeller is better than plastic brake rotors being seen


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## 1132le (Feb 23, 2017)

87 powershift said:


> hear that loudly! plastic costs big time
> care to by a headlamp for a 2013 ford escape? try $900.00 Hl cost more than the hood. when my wife had a issue with a illegal without a dl or insurance
> as to impellers i'm open, been around plastic car parts since 1962 on one called a corvette back when no body shop would touch them till they fund they could make more money fixing them . at least a plastic impeller is better than plastic brake rotors being seen


https://www.protuninglab.com/20foes...ooglepepla&utm_medium=adwords&id=140846687338

$335 for both left and right headlight still a scam
hid lights are more money


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## guyl (Jun 12, 2016)

I imagine that the GT plastic transmissions (that break so easily) are also a cost cutting measure that is turning out to be a really bad idea. The plastic chutes and gas tanks however seem to have several real benefits. Like everything else, what's bad in one application might be great in another. My biggest issue with plastic is that it doesn't lend itself well to repairs. Outright replacement is almost always the fix.


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## 10953 (Sep 4, 2017)

jrom said:


> Youch! on Escape headlamp cost.
> 
> I'm not anti-plastic, just noticing how fast and easy some of it can break. I agree about an impeller being better than a rotor.
> 
> Between my dad (the GM model maker) and one of my brothers (retired engineer at GM), they mentioned how Chevy made a couple of vette's in Kevlar (not a concept car, but not pre-production either, just experimental). Cost was way too high to go forward. I've got to ask my bro if those cars are around somewhere or if they were destroyed. I've never read about them anywhere.


gm is back to kelvar in the 2019 vette 600 something specail builds of which number 1 sold for 1.4 million at scotsdale this month 

hear about after market lamps. these where when you only could get from ford the hit came to 11 grand


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## 10953 (Sep 4, 2017)

guyl said:


> I imagine that the GT plastic transmissions (that break so easily) are also a cost cutting measure that is turning out to be a really bad idea. The plastic chutes and gas tanks however seem to have several real benefits. Like everything else, what's bad in one application might be great in another. My biggest issue with plastic is that it doesn't lend itself well to repairs. Outright replacement is almost always the fix.


not really to repairs,right stuff no problem. tears get special staples than a special bondo, plastic also welds easy look into eastwood.com just need the right tools and glues


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## FlamingSpaghetti (Jan 8, 2018)

jrom said:


> I thought it odd that no one responded either – it's a good question.
> 
> I don't have enough manufacturing/design experience to make a "qualified" response, but I've seen enough plastic parts break or breakdown way too fast over the years, especially ones used in extreme zones (temperature extremes, high impact areas, exposure to UV and/or chemical).
> 
> ...


Same here, this is how I feel. Plastics has definitely come a long way and I've seen some seriously strong plastic in more recent years but I still believe it shouldn't be used for such applications. Only time will tell but plastic as far as I know, still only lasts so long. If they come up with a cost effective super strong plastic that compares to metal, then I'm all for it. But so far, for consumer grade applications, plastic is generally used to cut costs and cheapen something up. The only current benefit I can see is how slick and smooth the surface can be, just like Jatoxico said, but how long will that surface last under use? With all the sand and other abrasive stuff that could potentially be mixed in with the snow, I don't see it lasting very long. Hardness would play it's role in this and silica is definitely harder than most plastics I'm aware of.


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## jrom (Jan 10, 2014)

87 powershift said:


> gm is back to kelvar in the 2019 vette 600 something specail builds of which number 1 sold for 1.4 million at scotsdale this month
> 
> hear about after market lamps. these where when you only could get from ford the hit came to 11 grand


Interesting. Thanks. Wow on $ for #1.

$11k, big ouch!


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## Nshusky (Jan 1, 2017)

I thought I would weigh into this conversation as my new 54" John Deere tractor blower has a composite impeller.

My mind tells me it should be metal as all of my walk behind blowers have had metal.
From what I have read on tractor forums the failure rate (from what has been reported by those with them) hasn't been high.
The only common complaint is that throwing distance isn't as good.
The shape of the impeller with the flat paddles imo part of that problem.
There is a metal impeller replacement part so if I find I cannot live with the composite then I have a good option for replacement.

For now I am giving it a chance but I have a long gravel driveway so we'll see how it holds up to that.


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## 1132le (Feb 23, 2017)

Nshusky said:


> I thought I would weigh into this conversation as my new 54" John Deere tractor blower has a composite impeller.
> 
> My mind tells me it should be metal as all of my walk behind blowers have had metal.
> From what I have read on tractor forums the failure rate (from what has been reported by those with them) hasn't been high.
> ...







a couple other guys in the comment section had broken ones as well


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## cr4west (Jan 10, 2017)

Here is some all plastic snow blower action. Scaled way down however. Kind of takes the fun out of wrestling a machine in the cold though.




And this guy just eliminated the operator!


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## vinnycom (Nov 6, 2017)

yet another machine A.I. can control to doom mankind by mincing him up, just great.


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

Yeah, but the AI will "forget" to use actual shear bolts, and will use grade 8 bolts instead. 

After all, if you're gonna mince up mankind, you don't want to only half-eat the person, then have the augers stop, to protect the gearbox.


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## barney (Nov 21, 2017)

10 pages on near non-existent plastic impellers and I can't get a bite on my full augur shaft vs half shafts posting or my second attempt seeking actual steel gauges used on modern blowers (Toro = 11 gauge) versus oh so fabulous (= ?) antique machines.

PS. My new $3900 Yamaha uses a plastic impeller. -barmp!


wait for it ....


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## barney (Nov 21, 2017)

These RC vids made my day and this thread. Thank you. I think I see the future.



cr4west said:


> Here is some all plastic snow blower action. Scaled way down however. Kind of takes the fun out of wrestling a machine in the cold though.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPEa_3Q_8pQ
> And this guy just eliminated the operator!
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yy6T1XPhyPY



british accent: 'And Now For Something Completely Different'


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

barney, I meant to measure the bucket thickness on my 2000 Ariens, sorry. At least as a point of reference. I'd swear I'd written down that thickness for the MTD it replaced, but I can't find it. 

11 gauge, 0.125", for the entire bucket, does seem extraordinarily thick and heavy, but I don't have one of those.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

barney said:


> 10 pages on near non-existent plastic impellers and I can't get a bite on my full augur shaft vs half shafts posting or my second attempt seeking actual steel gauges used on modern blowers (Toro = 11 gauge) versus oh so fabulous (= ?) antique machines.
> 
> PS. My new $3900 Yamaha uses a plastic impeller. -barmp!
> 
> ...


That's gonna hurt some feelings. 

Did I mention I LOVE Yamaha equipment. Never had a Yamaha ANYTHING fail me, or be sub standard in quality. From pianos to motorcycles. Great stuff.


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## barney (Nov 21, 2017)

jsup said:


> That's gonna hurt some feelings.
> 
> Did I mention I LOVE Yamaha equipment. Never had a Yamaha ANYTHING fail me, or be sub standard in quality. From pianos to motorcycles. Great stuff.


You probably know that I was making a lame joke there. :devil:
I don't own a Yami, more's the pity, and suspect the impeller isn't plastic. But I do appreciate the points you made regarding the modern polymers.


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## barney (Nov 21, 2017)

RedOctobyr said:


> barney, I meant to measure the bucket thickness on my 2000 Ariens, sorry. At least as a point of reference. I'd swear I'd written down that thickness for the MTD it replaced, but I can't find it.
> 
> 11 gauge, 0.125", for the entire bucket, does seem extraordinarily thick and heavy, but I don't have one of those.


Thanks. The guy was reviewing a new HD Toro 1028 he bought and used a caliper tool on the bucket. 

I have a regular Toro 826 and in their sales literature Toro make a point of saying "uses the same steel as in our HD models" which I immediately noted was not the same thing as saying "uses the same steel GAUGE as our HD models" so I'm determined to track down a caliper and measure mine. :smile2:


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## 351beno (Oct 12, 2017)

barney said:


> Thanks. The guy was reviewing a new HD Toro 1028 he bought and used a caliper tool on the bucket.
> 
> I have a regular Toro 826 and in their sales literature Toro make a point of saying "uses the same steel as in our HD models" which I immediately noted was not the same thing as saying "uses the same steel GAUGE as our HD models" so I'm determined to track down a caliper and measure mine. :smile2:


 Hey I just measured the toro and ariens 2 stage buckets and they all come in right around .078. but its hard with all the bends and coating thickness being inconsistent. I get measurements between .085 and .075 sizes but .078 is the more consistent one. This is with a small micrometer on the sides of the bucket just past the first lip.


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## barney (Nov 21, 2017)

351beno said:


> Hey I just measured the toro and ariens 2 stage buckets and they all come in right around .078. but its hard with all the bends and coating thickness being inconsistent. I get measurements between .085 and .075 sizes but .078 is the more consistent one. This is with a small micrometer on the sides of the bucket just past the first lip.


Thanks for that data point. Which Toro did you measure, HD or regular and was it a newer model or older?

It would be great if you could get a reading off any of the modern Cubs or Huskies with that micrometer as well as some "old iron"


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## 351beno (Oct 12, 2017)

I checked 
toro power max- 824oe-826oxe.
toro hd- 826oxe, 928 ohxe, 1028 ohxe.
Ariens compact 24.
deluxe 24, 28, 28 sho, 30.
platinum 24sho efi

Just checked an ariens st824 96 vintage its around .080


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## Cardo111 (Feb 16, 2015)

Interesting info in terms of auger housing thickness. I read that Toro uses High Strength Steel(HSS) can anybody verify this? I believe Paul from Movingsnow.com stated this in one of his Toro reviews.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

Kiss4aFrog said:


> It would make adding the impeller mod a challenge if the machine needed one. On the other hand plastic might be a better choice if it holds up to ice chunks, frozen newspapers and the like IF it's lighter so less stress on the bearings and it is rustproof.
> 
> It's a knee jerk reaction hearing plastic and assuming it's cheap and of lesser quality than it's metal predecessor. Might be something we just need to see how it goes.


Thank god for common sense and reason!!!!

Not just that, PLASTIC WON'T RUST TO THE SHAFT!!!

Another benefit. 

I have backup plastic boat propellers. They're great. They break down, the blades come off and you tuck them away in a tool box. Easy to change pitch, if you hit something, just replace a blade rather than expensive fixes. If plastic can move a 6000 lb boat at 50MPH, I think it can handle an impeller.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

Cardo111 said:


> Interesting info in terms of auger housing thickness. I read that Toro uses High Strength Steel(HSS) can anybody verify this? I believe Paul from Movingsnow.com stated this in one of his Toro reviews.


Thick for the sake of being thick, just makes things heavy. 

How thick is too thick?


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

barney said:


> You probably know that I was making a lame joke there. :devil:
> I don't own a Yami, more's the pity, and suspect the impeller isn't plastic. But I do appreciate the points you made regarding the modern polymers.


Sssssssssssssssssssssh. 

Here's the deal. Let's accept the premise that it's not in expensive machines, because "metal is better".

Is that the reason? Really? Perhaps they have a pile of metal impellers sitting around they have to use. Perhaps they have antiquated tooling that it doesn't make sense to change. Perhaps the reason is consumer perception, that people look at metal and instantly say "better". 

Thing is, no one can point to massive failures or the reasons for those failures. It's a knee jerk "plastic bad metal good" and the "higher end" brands count on that, so why would they go through the expense to change? You think these companies, any company, is altruistic? No, they are opportunistic, and as long as it's cheaper/easier to make metal impellers, that's what they'll do. As long as their base keeps paying for it. When their metal making impeller machine breaks, they'll make plastic and tell you it's better. Then all these "metal heads" will drink the Kool Aid and tell us it's better. 

And one more point while I'm on a roll. Yeah, a mechanic can give you anecdotal evidence of what THEY see, but the REAL information comes many levels over their head sitting on the desk of an actuary who can see the whole world, not just one shop.

A lot of assumptions are made, who knows what's right and what isn't.

What interests me in this discussion, is with many advantages of plastics, why isn't it used more widely? Or why was it chosen in the first place.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

barney said:


> Thanks for that data point. Which Toro did you measure, HD or regular and was it a newer model or older?
> 
> It would be great if you could get a reading off any of the modern Cubs or Huskies with that micrometer as well as some "old iron"


What is the perfect thickness?


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## FlamingSpaghetti (Jan 8, 2018)

jsup said:


> Thank god for common sense and reason!!!!
> 
> Not just that, PLASTIC WON'T RUST TO THE SHAFT!!!
> 
> ...


Changing a boat propeller is a lot easier than changing an impeller on a snow blower, and despite the claim of plastic not rusting, it can still certainly rust to the shaft. I had a similar issue happen to the plastic wheels on my track drive Craftsman. The wheels were rusted solid to the metal shafts and would not rotate. Took some serious plastic-scarring pounding to get them out. Pretty sure there is a thread about this issue on these very forums.


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## barney (Nov 21, 2017)

Cardo111 said:


> Interesting info in terms of auger housing thickness. I read that Toro uses High Strength Steel(HSS) can anybody verify this? I believe Paul from Movingsnow.com stated this in one of his Toro reviews.


That's interesting. I haven't come across that other then they apparently cast the body? and augur box as a single piece. 

I like the fact that they also buttress the augur box with steel plates.


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## Dannoman (Jan 16, 2018)

I saw one like that was stamped "Made in Transylvania". I called it Vlad the Impeller.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

FlamingSpaghetti said:


> Changing a boat propeller is a lot easier than changing an impeller on a snow blower, and despite the claim of plastic not rusting, it can still certainly rust to the shaft. I had a similar issue happen to the plastic wheels on my track drive Craftsman. The wheels were rusted solid to the metal shafts and would not rotate. Took some serious plastic-scarring pounding to get them out. Pretty sure there is a thread about this issue on these very forums.


Huh, plastic can rust solid to the shaft. Like I said, learn something new. I have to assume it's much less likely. Hmm, good to know. 

Ease of changing a propeller misses the point.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

Dannoman said:


> I saw one like that was stamped "Made in Transylvania". I called it Vlad the Impeller.


Rimshot! :grin:


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## 69ariens (Jan 29, 2011)

Hmmm the only plastic boat propeller I've seen are on rc boats. I don't think I would put one on my 21' crownline


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## barney (Nov 21, 2017)

The yay or nay plastic sniping is getting old.


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## Dauntae (Nov 10, 2016)

jsup said:


> Huh, plastic can rust solid to the shaft. Like I said, learn something new. I have to assume it's much less likely. Hmm, good to know.
> 
> Ease of changing a propeller misses the point.


Seriously man????? The shaft will rust and imbed the rust into the plastic making it unmovable to remove or rotate on the shaft.


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## FlamingSpaghetti (Jan 8, 2018)

Dauntae said:


> Seriously man????? The shaft will rust and imbed the rust into the plastic making it unmovable to remove or rotate on the shaft.


Not only that, the moisture trapped between the plastic (impeller in this case) and the shaft can create such a bad rust problem that the shaft would be virtually useless by the time you get the impeller off provided it comes off in one piece.

I was lucky when I tore down my Craftsman Trac-Drive assembly. I only had to make one new shaft on my lathe, the other three were salvageable after sanding each shaft for a good 15 minutes each.

I suppose this could happen to a metal impeller as well but I don't feel like the rust would expand nearly as much between the metal impeller like a softer plastic would allow.


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## Jatoxico (Jan 6, 2018)




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## barney (Nov 21, 2017)

It's devolved into 'last wordism'. This stuff usually gets shut down in other forums. For good reason.


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## sscotsman (Dec 8, 2010)

Yeah, I have been considering shutting this thread down for days..the "last word guy" has gotten out of hand and has been discussed among the moderators, a few of his posts have been deleted..but today several people have suggested that this thread has jumped the shark, so, I agree..I dont think there is anything new to be said!  overall, an interesting and informative thread though..thanks everyone!

Scot


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