# Ariens efi problems



## Finnbear

I've got the new efi and it hasn't run right yet, my dealer said to run premium gas with no alcohol, that's what I've been doing, changed the spark plug, it was badly fouled after 1/2 hour of backfiring and stalling, did I buy a mistake? The dealer hasn't worked on one yet. Im pretty handy, any suggestions? The blink indicator is ridiculous, impossible to count. 
Thanks


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## 132619

all of today's machines are made to run on 10%ethanol gas. high test will help but is not really necessary . use a good NAME brand gas, shell,exxon/mobil,sunoco . whatever is near you, try to stay away from the off brand /no names. where i have found by testing to exceed the 10% level and many times be closer to 20 plus,that will harm the fuel system and engine,


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## crazzywolfie

what is the point having fuel injection if you can't run regular fuel? it sounds like you need to get the dealer to check it out and if need be contact head office if the dealer won't look at it. if you have to run premium ethanol free fuel minus well just saved yourself a ton of money and just got the carbed version.


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## 132619

Finnbear said:


> The dealer hasn't worked on one yet.


that alone sounds like the problem ,he hasn't worked on one. ? i have for him is has he gone for training on the motors fuel system? 
you have a problem, take it elsewhere


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## 1132le

Finn you were having trouble 10 months ago its under warranty why did you wait this long to have it fixed by the dealer
I would have had a backup machine dropped off free of charge until they fixed and returned the blower

Its there issues not having worked on one prolly bs anyway any top wrencher could get what he needs from ariens to fix it easy sheesh

Call ariens tell them this load of crap


So far its you that has dropped the ball


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## sscotsman

33 woodie said:


> all of today's machines are made to run on 10%ethanol gas.


For carbureted small equipment engines (push lawnmowers, riding lawnmowers, snowblowers, generators, etc.) That isnt necessarily true, and might not be true at all. Most engines are still older designs, I have never heard that *any* carbureted small gas engines have been specifically designed to deal with 10% ethanol. Most, perhaps all, are not. Which is why non-ethanol gas is much better for these engines, and why ethanol is such a big deal/problem for these engines.

For EFI snowblower engines? I dont know..they might be designed with 10% ethanol in mind. I don't recall this specific question ever coming up in this forum before, this might be the first time. 

Scot


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## Jackmels

Just put a $12 repop carb on a neighbor's 9-29 Craftsman. Runs like a Top. No further Comment.


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## crazzywolfie

sscotsman said:


> For EFI snowblower engines? I dont know..they might be designed with 10% ethanol in mind. I don't recall this specific question ever coming up in this forum before, this might be the first time.


with fuel injection there should be no issue with 10% ethanol. usually with carbs ethanol usually clogs things up or causes the needle or float to stick but with fuel injection if there was any bad fuel in the line the pump just forces it thru.


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## Mike C.

https://images.homedepot-static.com/catalog/pdfImages/a5/a5d5bcb5-4bc7-478b-8a28-3f1379710a73.pdf


Here's the whole service manual for an Ariens snowblower with EFI.Downloaded this from Home Depot,believe it or not.It has a complete section on troubleshooting the EFI system.I would print that out,go down to your dealer and tell him to read it and fix your snowblower.It's not your problem,it's under warranty.


Right from the owners manual for an Ariens deluxe 30 EFI:


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## Mike C.

Finnbear


I went back and looked at your post from February when the trouble started with your blower.You said you added Seafoam to the gas because you suspected water in your fuel.


This is just my opinion,but seeing as though Seafoam has a lot of isopropyl alcohol in it,it might not be such a good product to use in your blower because of the fuel injection system being sensitive to fuels with a higher methanol content than E10.I wonder if the system is sophisticated enough to compensate for the added alcohol.I also wonder if it's possible that Seafoam could have a negative effect on the sensors used by the EFI.


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## jsup

Mike C. said:


> Finnbear
> 
> 
> I went back and looked at your post from February when the trouble started with your blower.You said you added Seafoam to the gas because you suspected water in your fuel.
> 
> 
> This is just my opinion,but seeing as though Seafoam has a lot of isopropyl alcohol in it,it might not be such a good product to use in your blower because of the fuel injection system being sensitive to fuels with a higher methanol content than E10.I wonder if the system is sophisticated enough to compensate for the added alcohol.I also wonder if it's possible that Seafoam could have a negative effect on the sensors used by the EFI.



It's not really fuel injection as you know it in your car. It's really an "electronic carb" for lack of a better description. 



It's mapped to a single set of circumstances, and that doesn't vary. Like when a car is running in open loop. There are no sensors on a snowblower EFI system. Sensors vary fuel delivery based on load, altitude, throttle position, engine temp, and air temp, I believe they only monitor air fuel ratio. (could be wrong, haven't seen one up close) These small, simple systems don't use these variables and only deliver fuel one way because environmental variations don't really change.


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## Mike C.

jsup said:


> It's not really fuel injection as you know it in your car. It's really an "electronic carb" for lack of a better description.
> 
> 
> 
> It's mapped to a single set of circumstances, and that doesn't vary. Like when a car is running in open loop. There are no sensors on a snowblower EFI system. Sensors vary fuel delivery based on load, altitude, throttle position, engine temp, and air temp, I believe they only monitor air fuel ratio. (could be wrong, haven't seen one up close) These small, simple systems don't use these variables and only deliver fuel one way because environmental variations don't really change.



Well,
I don't know what to tell you my friend,because according to Ariens service lit.,that system has an engine temperature sensor,barometric pressure sensor and a fuel pressure sensor that works with the ECU.


Ariens states that the system compensates for variations in the input from these sensors by adjusting the fuel mixture for smooth running and maximum power at all times.


The Seafoam might no directly affect the sensors themselves,but the ECU may not be able to compensate for the added alcohol in the fuel.


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## Finnbear

10 months ago, the dealer told me I was using the wrong gas, to use ethanol free premium only, and that would cure my problem, seemed to be ok for a while, but this season we are back to running awful again. I delivered it to a different dealer today, they too had never worked on one. 
We will see...


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## drmerdp

That Ariens service manual is a great resource. I finally got my answer on how the system is configured. It is a open loop fuel injection system, nothing carburetor about it. Air temp, engine temp, baro, engine speed, Throttle position, fuel pump, injector. Easy peasy.  

The manual is very complete with diagnostic info and hi resolution images. Any decent technician should be able to diagnosis and repair the issue. I’d love to get my hands on one for fun. 

Lots of small engine shops haven’t grown with the times...yet. Gotta start somewhere, hopefully they get it fixed for you quickly.


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## leonz

With your needs I would invest in a Mr. Funnel and a second gas can to filter the water out of the existing gas before you use it as any gasoline will be subject to being a moisture magnet.

You may have a cracked spark plug electrode and they will cause you fits.

I would gap the plug to 25 thousandths and then try it with clean gas run through a mister funnel. 

I use Seafoam in my truck and its capable of using E85 and I have not have any issues running the truck with it.


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## Mike C.

Finnbear said:


> 10 months ago, the dealer told me I was using the wrong gas, to use ethanol free premium only, and that would cure my problem, seemed to be ok for a while, but this season we are back to running awful again.
> ...


Did you go through the post-season storage procedure as outlined in the owner's manual?This entails COMPLETELY draining the gas tank and then running the engine until it runs out of fuel.They also recommend using a "high quality fuel stabilizer" at all times.Myself,I would go with a non-alcohol type.


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## Mike C.

leonz said:


> .....
> 
> I use Seafoam in my truck and its capable of using E85 and I have not have any issues running the truck with it.


But who knows if the Ariens EFI system likes it.More than likely,it's not a problem,but it would be nice to get Ariens' input on this.


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## jsup

Mike C. said:


> Well,
> I don't know what to tell you my friend,because according to Ariens service lit.,that system has an engine temperature sensor,barometric pressure sensor and a fuel pressure sensor that works with the ECU.
> 
> 
> Ariens states that the system compensates for variations in the input from these sensors by adjusting the fuel mixture for smooth running and maximum power at all times.
> 
> 
> The Seafoam might no directly affect the sensors themselves,but the ECU may not be able to compensate for the added alcohol in the fuel.



Well then, they have gotten more complex than I remember. Can't compensate, not without an O2 sensor, which, if they don't have (and I don't know) don't see how they can "maintain maximum power and efficiency at all times" IDK. Seems like a lot of marketing language.


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## drmerdp

jsup said:


> Well then, they have gotten more complex than I remember. Can't compensate, not without an O2 sensor, which, if they don't have (and I don't know) don't see how they can "maintain maximum power and efficiency at all times" IDK. Seems like a lot of marketing language.


Open loop systems can compensate and adjust for operating conditions really well. The added sophistication of a closed loop FI system with oxygen sensors would just further improve fuel efficiency and emissions. 

Frankly, the best facet of these EFI engines Is the electric throttle control. I’d prefer an electric governor with a properly jetted carb. Less complexity, better load management, optimal reliability. Hondas EU inverter generators are a great example.


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## JayzAuto1

That looks like a real deal EFI system according to the wiring diagrams I have seen, although there is no feedback without an O2 sensor. It's only a matter of time before an O2 sensor is added and programmed into these systems, much like other government interference on emissions. Look at Tier 4 diesels,,,, 

Finnbear, can you post a video of the blinking lights on the ECM? I'd love to see/touch one of these systems, It'll be a money maker for the small engine guys that want to tackle it. I know some dealers are resisting the new technology. Where are you located??

GLuck, Jay


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## Finnbear

The Seafoam idea makes perfect sense, thank you. When I stored it for summer, I put stabile in the fuel. 
I'll let the dealer know. 
Thanks !


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## Finnbear

Thank you, good thinking. I was frustrated last time, so I figured I'd take the matter into my own hands. But you are right. 
Much appreciated


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## Finnbear

JayzAuto1 said:


> That looks like a real deal EFI system according to the wiring diagrams I have seen, although there is no feedback without an O2 sensor. It's only a matter of time before an O2 sensor is added and programmed into these systems, much like other government interference on emissions. Look at Tier 4 diesels,,,,
> 
> Finnbear, can you post a video of the blinking lights on the ECM? I'd love to see/touch one of these systems, It'll be a money maker for the small engine guys that want to tackle it. I know some dealers are resisting the new technology. Where are you located??
> 
> GLuck, Jay


I had several videos as that's the only way I've found to safely see the blinking light, seems to me they should make the light more accessible. Here is a good one. https://youtu.be/9Yr9d2jSmxw


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## 132619

Mike C. said:


> https://images.homedepot-static.com/catalog/pdfImages/a5/a5d5bcb5-4bc7-478b-8a28-3f1379710a73.pdf
> 
> 
> Here's the whole service manual for an Ariens snowblower with EFI.Downloaded this from Home Depot,believe it or not.It has a complete section on troubleshooting the EFI system.I would print that out,go down to your dealer and tell him to read it and fix your snowblower.It's not your problem,it's under warranty.
> 
> 
> Right from the owners manual for an Ariens deluxe 30 EFI:


thank you.i went through the factory shop manual PDF's for LCT, predator/loncin, MTD/powermore, briggs and kohler.each has a page saying the same as you added.


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## Finnbear

I've got my service manual, I just have a problem figuring out the codes, please watch the video I posted and let me know what the blink code is 😆
I just dropped the machine off at a different dealer.
This morning it ran fine until under load, then sputtered, backfired and stalled. Weird...
Hope this new dealer can figure it out. 
Thanks to all of you, 
FB.


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## Mike C.

Finnbear said:


> The Seafoam idea makes perfect sense, thank you. When I stored it for summer, I put stabile in the fuel.
> I'll let the dealer know.
> Thanks !


If I were you,I would go with the manufacturer's recommendation of completely draining the fuel system.I think these EFI systems are going to turn out to be very sensitive to fuel quality ,even though Ariens is telling the opposite.


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## JayzAuto1

Finnbear,

IDK if I'd call THAT a 'Good One'....According to Ariens, The green light blinks when the ECM sees the engine running Good. The Red LED should be blinking out a code. That ECM has BOTH lights Flashing at the same time, in no discernible pattern. Is that the video of Your machine? 


I had several videos as that's the only way I've found to safely see the blinking light, seems to me they should make the light more accessible. Here is a good one. 




In any event there is only so many things that can go wrong. Everything to test is within a 3 foot area. Start with basics and work towards the problem. I hope your new dealer is more aggressive in his testing.

GLuck, Jay


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## Finnbear

Mike C. said:


> Finnbear said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Seafoam idea makes perfect sense, thank you. When I stored it for summer, I put stabile in the fuel.
> I'll let the dealer know.
> Thanks !
> 
> 
> 
> If I were you,I would go with the manufacturer's recommendation of completely draining the fuel system.I think these EFI systems are going to turn out to be very sensitive to fuel quality ,even though Ariens is telling the opposite.
Click to expand...

Completely agree, the only reason I bought efi was because another member of my house always left the choke on, I figured efi would cure that problem. Im wishing I had purchased a carburetor version regardless.


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## Mike C.

Wow,
I just did some looking around at the cost of parts for the EFI system.The throttle body alone costs more than I've ever paid for a snowblower-$350 and up.


The ECU is $150.


You can buy a replacement carburetor for a Tecumseh flathead for less than the cost of the plastic throttle knob-$25.


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## tpenfield

I figured that the EFI blowers would come down to this. Engine problems, dealers not knowing how to fix it, traditional troubleshooting procedures not effective, yada, yada, yada.

Welcome to the world of EFI. . . :sad2:


They work great until they don't. 



I agree with the others, hold the dealer's feet to the fire . . . there is probably a sensor that is failing. Dealer says "wrong fuel" ??? lain: geezz . . . That is on the second page of the book of a million excuses. These small engines can run on just about anything. I bet you could try a gallon of TruFuel, and it will still have problems. Hopefully, the dealer will step up and become EFI proficient.



I see this happen with boat engines all the time. Folks spend lots of time and $$$ chasing the problem, trying different fuel, spark plugs, ignition components, sensor roulette. Then they try the "blinking light" testers . . . usually coming to the conclusion that the engine is on the blink :grin:.


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## Finnbear

Jay, yes, that's my machine, both lights blinking, that's why the smiley face asking about the codes. Im thinking about getting it running good and selling it. 2 seasons of trouble. Maybe someone else will have better luck. Only after a long letter to Ariens though.


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## drmerdp

I’ve read through the engine diagnostics section of the manual a few times. 

The GREEN light blinking in no decernable pattern is described as normal. Kinda like an old computer that had a red or green light that would flicker wildly.

The RED light is for trouble codes. But... that red light is freaking Out. I’ve worked on plenty of cars that use an led flash pattern to display codes. Usually the flash speed is no more then 3-4 flashes per second, and requires patience to identify the code. 

That red led is in hyper speed. I slowed down the playback speed in YouTube to 0.25x and I still can’t come up with an identifiable code. The service manual lists 5 codes... 16, 21, 22, 27,28.

In the automotive world, if you think it must be the ECU, you’re probably wrong. But in this case, It may be the ECU. 

I also suspect the stator. It powers the light, hand warmers, charges the battery, and also acts as the engine speed sensor.


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## russ01915

Mike C. said:


> https://images.homedepot-static.com/catalog/pdfImages/a5/a5d5bcb5-4bc7-478b-8a28-3f1379710a73.pdf
> 
> 
> Here's the whole service manual for an Ariens snowblower with EFI.Downloaded this from Home Depot,believe it or not.It has a complete section on troubleshooting the EFI system.I would print that out,go down to your dealer and tell him to read it and fix your snowblower.It's not your problem,it's under warranty.
> 
> 
> Right from the owners manual for an Ariens deluxe 30 EFI:


Thank you so much for the service manual. I'm also looking for Pro 28 and Pro 32 with hydro service manuals


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## Mike C.

The dealership will probably just gut and replace the entire fuel injection system if they are as unknowledgeable about it as they appear.Then send Ariens a big fat inflated bill.






This reminds me of the recent thread where the Toro dealership,under warranty,replaced a gearbox,impeller bearing and auger shaft support bearings on a Toro that they originally told the OP didn't have a problem,"That small amount of play is normal".It was normal until Toro told them to check it out,and then it needed $700 worth of work.


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## Mike C.

russ01915 said:


> Thank you so much for the service manual. I'm also looking for Pro 28 and Pro 32 with hydro service manuals


Go here:Ariens Order Owners Manuals


Enter your model number,serial number,click on box for "service manual" and click box for English and hit "electronic manual search".IT'S FREE!


I made a test run and got the manual you were looking for by using model number 926066 and a made-up serial number:000101.


This manual is for the NON EFI models.Covers hydro-pro 28,32 and 36 inch models,tracked and wheeled.


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## JayzAuto1

I agree with Dr mer, First thing to check, (other than fluids), Would be battery supply voltage. I always test charging and starting systems Before digging in. I would check stator output with a scope.... Since the computer needs clean DC Voltage...ANY AC leakage will cause the computer to go on the fritz. That's where I'd start. I also read thru the Ariens manual. They suggest reading codes WITH A MIRROR !!!! Hahahahahaahahaahahaha..... great idea. Why not drop the ECM and look straight on?? Then perform testing at the computer. EZ stuff...can't wait to get one to play with.

GLuck, Jay


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## WVguy

For future reference on Ariens products and engines here is a link to their site to get manuals. Owner's, service, and engine:

https://support.ariens.com/manuals/

Here is the link for LCT engine manuals:

Service - Liquid Combustion Technology, LLC

Note that they want you to enter a LONG engine model number. Mine is (no kidding!) PW617750178EABGILOQUVXE1M

They do have an autofill on the web site so you can enter maybe half and then pick yours from a list, but gee, they couldn't come up with a better model sequence system?

BTW, warranty on the LCT engines is two years.

Hope this helps.


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## RedOctobyr

JayzAuto1 said:


> I would check stator output with a scope.... Since the computer needs clean DC Voltage...ANY AC leakage will cause the computer to go on the fritz. That's where I'd start.


Most people (and I suspect most small-engine repair shops) won't have an oscilloscope. Any thoughts on whether the system could maybe run temporarily off the small battery pack, and disconnect it from the alternator, to ensure it's getting clean DC?


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## russ01915

Mike C. said:


> Go here:Ariens Order Owners Manuals
> 
> 
> Enter your model number,serial number,click on box for "service manual" and click box for English and hit "electronic manual search".IT'S FREE!
> 
> 
> I made a test run and got the manual you were looking for by using model number 926066 and a made-up serial number:000101.
> 
> 
> This manual is for the NON EFI models.Covers hydro-pro 28,32 and 36 inch models,tracked and wheeled.


Even though not my model, it will suffice and get me thru any problems that might arise. Thank you


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## Finnbear

Thanks all for your help.fingers crossed the dealer can figure this out. Then I'm having a sale. I live in big snow country, and wonder what I should get? I've got a 25 or 30 year old Ariens in my garage that finally gave up. Once I get rid of this efi pos, what do you all recommend?


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## JayzAuto1

Finnbear you already have the good SnowBlower.....Just need to restore it!!!! You can't do better than that old American Iron. There are Mods you can do to make it a little more user friendly, smoother, quieter. But I understand that time is not on your side rite now. What model is the old one?? Engine size?? And what took it out of commission??

GLuck, Jay


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## leonz

If your close to the Canadian border a Yamaha 1028 or 1332 otherwise a Toro Powermax 1432 OHXE "from a Toro Dealer".


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## JayzAuto1

R/O I suspect you are correct about the scope at dealerships, or the aggressiveness of the Tech's to learn new technology. comes with the territory. Eventually you either stay up to date, or stick working on antiques. If your not moving forward, your going backwards. But a decent DVOM may give you enough info also. That is a required dealer tool. It is used when testing any voltage regulator. A typical regulator should read 29 ACV +/-. Output at high idle should be 13.5-14.5 DCV. So using a DVOM there should be NO AC Volts on the output side. The problem with testing is that a low quality meter may not update fast enough to catch a blip of ACV...... and it only takes a little leakage to mess with a PCM. That's why I use an O-Scope. They are much more affordable now. And I wouldn't be surprised if you can get an app for your smart phone and plug in leads for basic testing. Another down and dirty test is to simply disconnect the alternator/regulator from the harness, with a fully charged battery, to see if the engine runs better. That takes the charging system out of the loop. The smarter computers will realize that the voltage is low, but as long as there is no AC leakage, it will perform well (providing that is where the problem lies). And it's possible on this machine that it is, judging by the strobe light show the indicator lights were dancing to !!!!

GLuck, Jay


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## tadawson

I'm going to take a modestly educated guess that this is indeed a power problem (or ECU), in that it seems like the engine is misfiring/slowing when both lights are dark, as if the ECU is losing power. If true, then once the fault is isolated, it should not return, so don't sell what could be a great machine just because your dealer might be an idiot . . . there just plain are not that many things to go wrong here . . 

Heck, have you checked the charge on (or tried to charge) the battery?

You might also call Ariens directly . . . .


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## 132619

Finnbear said:


> Thanks all for your help.fingers crossed the dealer can figure this out. Then I'm having a sale. I live in big snow country, and wonder what I should get? I've got a 25 or 30 year old Ariens in my garage that finally gave up. Once I get rid of this efi pos, what do you all recommend?


toro all the way, or downgrade to a carbed ariens unless your pocket is deep enough for a honda


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## tpenfield

Finnbear said:


> Thanks all for your help.fingers crossed the dealer can figure this out. Then I'm having a sale. I live in big snow country, and wonder what I should get? I've got a 25 or 30 year old Ariens in my garage that finally gave up. Once I get rid of this efi pos, what do you all recommend?



Toro Powermax


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## russ01915

Any Carb model until all kinks are worked out.IMHO. After looking thru the service manual, it appears too complicated for the average owner.


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## russ01915

I looked up some EFI part prices.

Fuel Pump $96.95
ECU $149.95
Throttle Body $129.95
Battery $28.69


Carb $50 or less


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## 132619

russ01915 said:


> Any Carb model until all kinks are worked out.IMHO. After looking thru the service manual, it appears too complicated for the average owner.


i think that will be a issue even for shops, we got a CC in yesterday v twin with EFI not running right, 
i know it's going to get more and more common as the new emission laws take effect, we will see more of them coming in for work, briggs ,kohler, powermore, lct, kawasaki, walbro making kits for oem's, http://www.walbro.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Walbro_EEM_Injection_Mower_PS_EN.pdf

https://www.ecotrons.com/small_engine_fuel_injection_kit/


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## RedOctobyr

JayzAuto1 said:


> R/O I suspect you are correct about the scope at dealerships, or the aggressiveness of the Tech's to learn new technology. comes with the territory. Eventually you either stay up to date, or stick working on antiques. ... That's why I use an O-Scope. They are much more affordable now. And I wouldn't be surprised if you can get an app for your smart phone and plug in leads for basic testing.


I did wonder about setting a multimeter to AC, and checking the "DC" coming from the alternator. But as you said, that may not be sensitive/quick enough. 

A few years ago I tried a ~$60 Hantek USB oscilloscope that connects to your computer. I was very unimpressed, triggering was poor and unreliable. I ended up getting a mid-90's 4-channel DSO LeCroy scope off Craigslist for about $40. It's big and clunky, but it works, and it's been fun to experiment with  It's amazing being able to look at things happening on the order of ten-thousandths of a second, or faster. 

Looking quickly on Amazon, I see several standalone mini scope options under $100, including this one at $45: 

https://www.amazon.com/Quimat-Oscilloscope-BNC-Clip-Assembled-Finished/dp/B077D62Z1P/ref=sr_1_12_sspa?ie=UTF8&qid=1546184468&sr=8-12-spons&keywords=mini+oscilloscope&psc=1

Probably not fancy, and limited to 50V input, but it's awfully cheap, and would certainly show you more than a multimeter will. And since it's not AC-powered, it is (I believe) a floating ground, so there is less risk of suddenly letting the expensive smoke out if you connect its Ground lead to something AC-powered that's *not* actually at 0V/ground. 



> Another down and dirty test is to simply disconnect the alternator/regulator from the harness, with a fully charged battery, to see if the engine runs better. That takes the charging system out of the loop. The smarter computers will realize that the voltage is low, but as long as there is no AC leakage, it will perform well (providing that is where the problem lies).


Cool, that's what I was trying to ask. It would hopefully at least be a quick & easy test. 

EFI does sound like it has some nice potential benefits, but yeah, replacement parts seem pretty expensive. I'll stick to carbs, for now.


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## IDEngineer

Mike C. said:


> Seafoam has a lot of isopropyl alcohol in it,it might not be such a good product to use in your blower because of the fuel injection system being sensitive to fuels with a higher methanol content than E10.I wonder if the system is sophisticated enough to compensate for the added alcohol.I also wonder if it's possible that Seafoam could have a negative effect on the sensors used by the EFI.


 FWIW, I use Seafoam in every gallon of gasoline that runs through my occasional use engines and that includes a lot of EFI's. I think the trick is to not overdo the amount of Seafoam... use it regularly in moderation and it does exactly what it's supposed to do, which is keep the engine spotlessly clean.


I do use Seafoam to decarbon some 2-stroke engines but with rare exceptions most of those aren't heavily instrumented with sensors. My former Mercury inboard was a 2-stroke EFI, though, with more sensors than I've ever seen on an engine yet I decarboned it with Seafoam every fall without incident.


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## Mike C.

russ01915 said:


> Even though not my model, it will suffice and get me thru any problems that might arise. Thank you



You didn't give me any actual model numbers,as I recall.That was the best guess I came up with based on your info.


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## pete300

So far from what has been posted it seems like the trouble is when under load, IMO seems like a fuel supply issue. I'm in automotive and issues like these are usually related to the basics. The one thing I would suggest is to first check all connections at sensors connectors etc. next would be the battery, charging system, fuel pressure. You mentioned that it ran ok at one point then started running poorly again. Any good technician should be able to diagnose this issue IMHO. Hope you find this helpful.


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## Finnbear

Thanks again, update, my efi has been at the dealer for a week, called them yesterday, they haven't figured it out yet. They did complain that Ariens doesn't reimburse for 100% labor, leaves me reassured that they are going to provide great service. 
As an aside, the discussion about battery and power supply, seems to make sense. I'll talk to the dealer next week and make some suggestions.


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## zandor

Loss of power isn't necessarily a fuel or even a motor issue with Ariens EFI machines. My dealer didn't get one of the electrical connections quite as snug as it should have been, and my machine started losing power when it worked itself loose. I forget if it was the plug for the throttle knob or the ignition switch. After an hour of pulling my hair out I found the loose wire and it was back to full power after that. My guess is the "throttle" on these machines is basically adjusting resistance and the computer interprets lower voltage as a call for less power, so a bad connection basically throttles down the engine and tells it to shut off if the voltage drops low enough.

At any rate, if your EFI machine starts losing power check under the dash for loose electrical connections.


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## Bluejoe

Hello I’m certain situations it could be bad grounds or dirty/bad connections. First check for the obvious.


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## IDEngineer

zandor said:


> My guess is the "throttle" on these machines is basically adjusting resistance and the computer interprets lower voltage as a call for less power, so a bad connection basically throttles down the engine and tells it to shut off if the voltage drops low enough.


 Yep... on most EFI engines there's a device called a Throttle Position Sensor (TPS), which is a fancy name for a potentiometer (or "pot"), which is itself a fancy name for a variable resistor. (Normally a typical pot costs under a buck, but if you call it a TPS engine manufacturers will charge you literally HUNDREDS of dollars for it. I'm thinking of you, Mercury Marine!) The TPS can be mounted on the throttle lever (or accelerator pedal in an EFI automobile), or it can be mounted on the engine's throttle body if the accelerator is mechanically linked to the butterfly valves on the throttle body. If the former, there will be a motor on the throttle body to open/close the butterfly valves; I doubt a snowblower-sized engine would get that complex, so these engines probably use a mechanical linkage.


Regardless of how the throttle body is physically controlled, the Engine Control Unit (ECU) still needs to know the position of the butterfly valve(s) so it can synchronize the injector pulse width to maintain the desired fuel/air ratio. So there will always be some sort of TPS on an EFI engine.

The TPS is so critical that it usually comprises TWO pots, sandwiched together, that rotate on a common shaft. These pots are wired as voltage dividers in opposition and both signals are fed back to the ECU. As the shaft turns, the output voltage from one of the pots goes up and the output voltage from the other one goes down. The ECU knows what relationship to expect between those two voltages, and if it ever varies from that relationship by more than a very small percentage, the ECU will throw an error code and generally refuse to rev up the engine for safety reasons. Basically the ECU doesn't know what is going on at the throttle body, and it would be too dangerous to presume anything, so it goes into a "limp mode" until the TPS problem is resolved. This is an inexpensive yet clever way to protect from TPS failure (electrical or mechanical). Note how this means we can sense signal loss due to TPS failure or wiring harness damage, a short of a signal wire to either the other signal or ground or +Vbat, etc.

So your "bad connection" theory is exactly correct. It's hard to predict exactly how a specific ECU is designed to react to a bad TPS signal but not revving the engine is very likely for the reasons mentioned above. However, I would not expect it to ONLY do that under load... I'd expect the ECU to limit RPM's regardless of load if the TPS signal was questionable.

Sorry for the ramble, but I figure the more we all know about how these critters work the better!


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## RedOctobyr

Very interesting, thanks IDEngineer! I think I get why there are 2 pots. If either one fails, you have a way to detect it, by comparing with the signal from the other one. If there was just a single pot, you'd have no redundancy, and so couldn't catch a single pot failure. 

Is it possible that the problem only appears under a load because one pot is only failing in a certain range of positions? Maybe it reads OK when the throttle is only open a little (no load), but the output goes bad when the throttle opens most of the way (under a snow load)?


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## tadawson

RedOctobyr said:


> Very interesting, thanks IDEngineer! I think I get why there are 2 pots. If either one fails, you have a way to detect it, by comparing with the signal from the other one. If there was just a single pot, you'd have no redundancy, and so couldn't catch a single pot failure.
> 
> Is it possible that the problem only appears under a load because one pot is only failing in a certain range of positions? Maybe it reads OK when the throttle is only open a little (no load), but the output goes bad when the throttle opens most of the way (under a snow load)?



That, and a single pot failure can't take you to full throttle and hang there (or zero . . . )


On cars, if one pot fails compared to the other, you get an instant OBD code screaming about it, and the car may shut down. 



In a blower, the throttle is not being changed while running - you set it and leave it . . . (not sure if you were referring to a sensor on the throttle plate - than's typically a different thing, or a servo motor with different position sensing . . . ) but that could get odd. 



On this one, though, even were that happening, the LED's on the ECU would not behave this way - they would be stable and displaying the appropriate error code. The "flickery" pattern in the LEDs still screams power or ECU issue, since, at least as I read the the Ariens/LCT docs, the green should be a steady heartbeat pulse showing that the ECU is alive - not spastic flickering . . .


I kinda wish I knew where the OP was located . . . His name kinda makes me think near me in the UP of Michigan, and one of the dealers I was dealing with recently commented about just getting an EFI machine in for work . . .seems crazy familiar. If so, and were it not at the dealer, I'd have loved the chance to take a look . . .


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## RedOctobyr

Oh, sorry, yeah, I was thinking this was a throttle-plate position sensor. I guess this is actually the one to detect the position of the throttle control that the user interacts with. Oops.

Yeah, in that case, I wouldn't expect anything to change based on whether you're in the snow or not.


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## tadawson

That's my thought . . . since this is open loop, it's using the temp sensor to determine effective choke (enriching) for start, and the alternator AC frequency out to determine shaft speed. The rest is just doing a lookup in a fueling table to get an injection quantity and throttle plate position based on test results done in development. No O2 sensor, so mix is purely via table, so if injector is duked, it will go lean or rich, but I would not expect a surge from that. If alternator is not getting to the ECU, then it won't be able to sense speed, and the gov could cause surging, or (my pet theory) the power is bad to the ECU (or it is bad) so it is constantly resetting, causing the engine to die when it is resetting, and then try to come up to speed when the ECU is running, all of which is consistent with either the ECU losing power, possibly due to a bad connection that flakes under power, or a board defect itself . . . If the throttle plate servo failed, I would expect it to hang in one place, not surge as well . . . (or if in the wrong place, die, since there is no way to determine incorrect mixture due to running open loop . . . ). 


And yes, in cars the dual pot/encoder is the one on the accelerator pedal . . . (well, at least one of them . . . ) the same as with modern diesels (no throttle plate) . . .



As I said, I'd love to see it . . . I don't think this should be that hard to troubleshoot *if* the dealer actually understands the way EFI (and this system) works . . .


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## Jackmels

Why Would Anyone Want this System On Their Machine? Even The Dealer Can't Figure it Out. Good Luck to Anyone Who Buys It


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## tadawson

The dealer being an imbecile does not define the system . . . far less to go wrong, and far better control is why I would want it . . .

It's just not that complicated (well, unless your knuckes drag on the ground . . .).


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## Jackmels

As more of these threads appear with EFI Problems, I'll be Laughing.


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## Zavie

Paul goes over his thoughts on EFI....


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## ST1100A

Jackmels said:


> As more of these threads appear with EFI Problems, I'll be Laughing.


If it happens one time, it will happen a lot more times.


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## ST1100A

Your Briggs EFI engines use an O2 sensor. 
In some posts they were talking about measuring stator, "Pulse" or "Trigger" output that may be used in the fuel injection system to tell the injector when to "Spray", kind of like an electronic ignition timing telling the coil when to "Fire". 
A digital meter is not fast enough to pick up the "Peak" voltage signal, an "Analog" meter will catch that. If it catches any signal, it will be an "RMS" voltage signal, which is less than "Peak". The "Peak is used for the "Trigger" signal.
An "Oscilloscope will usually catch it, but look at what that costs.
They do make "Peak Voltage" adapters for digital multi-meters, and they can be an expensive tool, I have them.


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## ST1100A

tadawson said:


> That's my thought . . . since this is open loop, it's using the temp sensor to determine effective choke (enriching) for start, and the alternator AC frequency out to determine shaft speed. The rest is just doing a lookup in a fueling table to get an injection quantity and throttle plate position based on test results done in development. No O2 sensor, so mix is purely via table, so if injector is duked, it will go lean or rich, but I would not expect a surge from that. If alternator is not getting to the ECU, then it won't be able to sense speed, and the gov could cause surging, or (my pet theory) the power is bad to the ECU (or it is bad) so it is constantly resetting, causing the engine to die when it is resetting, and then try to come up to speed when the ECU is running, all of which is consistent with either the ECU losing power, possibly due to a bad connection that flakes under power, or a board defect itself . . . If the throttle plate servo failed, I would expect it to hang in one place, not surge as well . . . (or if in the wrong place, die, since there is no way to determine incorrect mixture due to running open loop . . . ).
> 
> 
> And yes, in cars the dual pot/encoder is the one on the accelerator pedal . . . (well, at least one of them . . . ) the same as with modern diesels (no throttle plate) . . .
> 
> 
> 
> As I said, I'd love to see it . . . I don't think this should be that hard to troubleshoot *if* the dealer actually understands the way EFI (and this system) works . . .


If your ECU or any other sensors are subjected to any "Electro-magnetic" interference, that could give you a problem to. Especially on a small engine. It could happen if its not insulated well, or even thru any of the wiring in the harness. That is common on a small engine thru the ignition coil, and any of its wiring.
They aren't shielded as well as an automobile.


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## tadawson

But any decent design pretty much negates that . . . biggest risk will be goobers using the wrong plug or some schlep coil and lead. Since pressure/temp/humidity are voltages and not pulses, and this is TBI, so no injection timing, about all that can get hit much by noise would be the gov signal, and since that's basically reading the freq off the stator (which drives a load), not much chance of noise there. Biggest risk would likely be if the whole thing ends up being one big corona ball, and impulse noise gets into the ECU, but as noted prior, not too hard to design against that, which I assume has been done.

For that matter, both air temp and humidity sensors are on the ECU . . . about the only one I recall on the engine proper is for temp. Having the ECU up on the console helps as well, since not much wiring on the block, and a goodly distance away from the ignition parts.

Unlike carbs with seals that will degrade, jets that will likely clog, linkages that will bind as they get dirty, varnish that will build up in the open to the atmosphere bowl . . . . etc. etc. EFI issues are a "maybe" . . . carb issues are a "when"!


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## ST1100A

tadawson said:


> But any decent design pretty much negates that . . . biggest risk will be goobers using the wrong plug or some schlep coil and lead. Since pressure/temp/humidity are voltages and not pulses, and this is TBI, so no injection timing, about all that can get hit much by noise would be the gov signal, and since that's basically reading the freq off the stator (which drives a load), not much chance of noise there. Biggest risk would likely be if the whole thing ends up being one big corona ball, and impulse noise gets into the ECU, but as noted prior, not too hard to design against that, which I assume has been done.
> 
> For that matter, both air temp and humidity sensors are on the ECU . . . about the only one I recall on the engine proper is for temp. Having the ECU up on the console helps as well, since not much wiring on the block, and a goodly distance away from the ignition parts.
> 
> Unlike carbs with seals that will degrade, jets that will likely clog, linkages that will bind as they get dirty, varnish that will build up in the open to the atmosphere bowl . . . . etc. etc. EFI issues are a "maybe" . . . carb issues are a "when"!


Trying to keep the costs down and being new to small engines, they will take shortcuts.
Goober and Schlep are used to the older ways of fixing things with the "BFH" and the "Hot-wrench". Everything was much simpler and easy then, plus cheaper costs and parts availability.
And you think all this crap being made in China now with stolen designs and engineering that our companies gave them, they want to make it as cheap as possible to sell to us because they don't like us, just our money.


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## Zavie

tadawson said:


> But any decent design pretty much negates that . . . biggest risk will be goobers using the wrong plug or some schlep coil and lead. Since pressure/temp/humidity are voltages and not pulses, and this is TBI, so no injection timing, about all that can get hit much by noise would be the gov signal, and since that's basically reading the freq off the stator (which drives a load), not much chance of noise there. Biggest risk would likely be if the whole thing ends up being one big corona ball, and impulse noise gets into the ECU, but as noted prior, not too hard to design against that, which I assume has been done.
> 
> For that matter, both air temp and humidity sensors are on the ECU . . . about the only one I recall on the engine proper is for temp. Having the ECU up on the console helps as well, since not much wiring on the block, and a goodly distance away from the ignition parts.
> 
> Unlike carbs with seals that will degrade, jets that will likely clog, linkages that will bind as they get dirty, varnish that will build up in the open to the atmosphere bowl . . . . etc. etc. EFI issues are a "maybe" . . . carb issues are a "when"!


Could not agree more. Nothing fancy here at all. When EFI came along (in the mid 1980s) temperature sensors were used to determine the instantaneous fueling and spark advance in some cases, and reducing noise became essential. The simple solution was 'two-wire' sensors that use a dedicated ground return to the ECU (instead of the much more noisy high current ground).


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## IowaNick

tadawson said:


> EFI issues are a "maybe" . . . carb issues are a "when"!


No one knows yet if Ariens' EFI is a maybe. Hasn't been out there long enough. I'll definitely take a "when" of paying $30 shipped for a carb and change it in 15 minutes vs a "maybe" of paying for that throttle body or ECU plus labor and hauling it to a dealer for a week's worth of downtime.

Carburetors are serviceable by the average Joe, and even if you didn't want to service one, you could buy 10 replacement carbs for the price of the EFI upgrade...and that's not considering the potential for a multi-hundred dollar repair bill on EFI systems. And judging by almost all of the times it's been brought up here, good luck finding a dealer who will work on one, let alone be knowledgeable to do a competent job. In my opinion it's a gimmick for small engines at the displacements found on walk behind equipment. I could see if there was a tangible benefit for the money paid and high potential repair cost, but flipping a choke lever and pressing a primer bulb takes less than 5 seconds and results in the same effect. To each his own.

Ariens has definitely done a bang up job buffaloing people with their marketing department, though.


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## ST1100A

E.F.I. issues are a "When", not a "Maybe".
If you get a breakdown in the middle of the job, you want to be able to get it fixed and back up and running right away, like with a carb problem because of their simple design.
An E.F.I. problem will put you down for an extended period of time and a lot of money in repairs, so that is a lot of money lost there, plus the loss of the job you are doing.
You have to remember, all those College educated marketing people that were paid to advertise the E.F.I. have never got their hands dirty working on a job, they only get them dirty when they are picking their noses, which is the only thing they are good at, besides B.S.ing people.


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## tadawson

This engine, I believe, is unique to Ariens, so if you think that LCT just threw something out there without extensive QC testing and design input by Ariens, then I would like some of what you are smoking. Were it a Chinese fly by night company (like the carb vendors), then I would worry, but not with Ariens behind it supporting warranty.

And you are tending to reinforce my growing suspicion that the problems are not EFI, but the unqualified idiots that don't understand it and don't kmow how to work on it. 

Cave
Man
Simple!

And I suspect that while parts will likely be more expensive (at least initially, and then there will inevitable be aftermarket stuff . . ), the frequency of needing them will be far less than carbs, since there are drastically fewe wear parts in EFI, and electronics don't have a finite lifetime, as opposed to friction points in linkages, etc..


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## ST1100A

Those engines are used by many different companies, both here and worldwide with that system. A lot of very experienced technicians know all to well of LCT's QC, which is almost non-existent.
LCT is starting to look like a "Fly By Night" company to many of us that have had bad experiences with their engines, both homeowners and commercial. They may improve over the next ten years hopefully, like the Kia cars when they first came out. 20 years later Kia cars got a lot better in the American market.
We hope those engines wont be the downfall of Ariens, almost what Kohler did to John Deere with the "KT" series engine and other companies with their "Triad" and dis"Courage" series. They were cheap experimental engines that almost did a few companies in with all of the failures they had with them.
There are enough "Wear" parts with EFI, different than carburetor parts, but the main parts that fail are the electronic parts, and those are "Non Serviceable", unlike a carburetor, and much more expensive. That is what worries most people now.
Give the "EFI" systems around 10 to 20 years to prove their worthiness and reliability in the small engine field, and the cost to come down, then maybe people will be more interested in them. Right now it is in its "Experimental and Developmental" stage.
If they make them "Cave Man Simple", they will have lots of problems with them, so they have to be much more technical and complicated for the average person to understand, plus the costs involved, so right there is a major problem selling it to the general public, they are used to and understand carburetors which have been around for over 100 years.
The average person with common sense wants something simple, not complicated, so when they have bad luck with the complicated machine, they will tell 10 other people to stay away from it. If they have good luck with it, they might tell 1 or 2 people to get it.


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## groomerz

I think the problem with efi on small engines is that this is new technology to small engines and that training and troubleshooting takes time to get technicians up to speed. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## tadawson

groomerz said:


> I think the problem with efi on small engines is that this is new technology to small engines and that training and troubleshooting takes time to get technicians up to speed.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Exactlly! The amout of misinformation and outright ignorance about EFI in this thread alone could fill several dump trucks, and the 'good 'ol boys' being either unwilling or intellectually incapable of learning the system is hardly an issue with the technology, but a factor nonetheless . . .

Small engine EFI *IS* simple *NOW*! Fully open loop, with a very small part and sensor count . . . (the Ariens system is ECU, fuel pump, throttle body with injector, a block temp sensor, and the throttle knob as I recall, for a whopping *5* parts) it will likely become less so with the tendency of the EPA to overreach, but the writing is on the wall . . . carbs will be gone before too long on new equipment due to emission requirements, and the small enginen carb just plain being too crude a device to meet new standards, like it or not . . And *any* electronic device can be serviced to any level, if the skill set is there . . . manifacturers don't magically invent new components, and PCB rework isn't hard . . . Yeah, can't fix everything, but a lot of common failures won't be bad, and likely 3rd parties that can do rework will appear (as is the case for proprietary auto ECU/BCM/ABS/etc controllers . . .

I'd bet most PCB failures in the OPE world will be mechanical, which are by far the easiest to address. Power is a closed system, so unlike stuff in the home that can fail due to surges frok the mains and such, that isn't an issue.

And, to ST1100, please show me another application of this speecific EFI config . . .heck, the ECU isn't even physically part of the engine, and Ariens specifically calls it thier own . . . Never seen it offered elsewhere either, and no, use of the block by others doesn't count . . Also not rational to consider all EFI on small engines as the same . . .EFI tech is solid enough *now* that your 'give it 10 years' claim is pure comedy gold . . . the hard parts have been mature for decades, the variable is putting it in an application where Clem and Gooober are user to "fixing" things, as you say, with a BFH rather than learning how to do things right . . .


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## IowaNick

tadawson said:


> Exactlly! The amout of misinformation and outright ignorance about EFI in this thread alone could fill several dump trucks, and the 'good 'ol boys' being either unwilling or intellectually incapable of learning the system is hardly an issue with the technology, but a factor nonetheless . . .
> 
> Small engine EFI *IS* simple *NOW*! Fully open loop, with a very small part and sensor count . . . (the Ariens system is ECU, fuel pump, throttle body with injector, a block temp sensor, and the throttle knob as I recall, for a whopping *5* parts) it will likely become less so with the tendency of the EPA to overreach, but the writing is on the wall . . . carbs will be gone before too long on new equipment due to emission requirements, and the small enginen carb just plain being too crude a device to meet new standards, like it or not . . And *any* electronic device can be serviced to any level, if the skill set is there . . . manifacturers don't magically invent new components, and PCB rework isn't hard . . . Yeah, can't fix everything, but a lot of common failures won't be bad, and likely 3rd parties that can do rework will appear (as is the case for proprietary auto ECU/BCM/ABS/etc controllers . . .
> 
> I'd bet most PCB failures in the OPE world will be mechanical, whichnare by far the easiest to address. Power is amclosed system, so unlike stuff in the home that can fail due to surges frok the mains and such, that isn't an issue.
> 
> And, to ST1100, please show me another application of this speecific EFI config . . .****, the ECU isn't even physically part of the engije, and Ariens specificall calls it thier own . . . Never seen it offered elsewhere either, and no, use of tue block by others doesn't count . . Also not rational to consider all EFI on small enginesnas the same . . .EFI tech is solid enough *now* that your 'give it 10 years' claim is pure comedy gold . . . the hard parts have been mature for decades, the variable is putting it in an application where Clem and Gooober are user to "fixing" things, as you say, with a BFH rather than learning how to do things right . . .


I don't think you understand that no one here is claiming EFI isn't simple, or that it's too complex.

What people are saying is that it's not typically serviceable by owner/operators which leaves dealer servicing as the only option, and that dealers are already showing either 1) flat-out refusal to work on or sell the machines, or 2) incompetence and lack of knowledge when working on EFI systems which is even worse. Worse yet, when the machines are out of warranty, repairing an EFI system could easily hit $500 after parts and labor when even a complete carburetor malfunction is a $30 fix, easily done by an owner/operator in 15 minutes.

No one is saying it's junk, but it doesn't give any benefits over a carbed system other than not having to push a primer bulb 3 times and flip a choke lever. It's a marketing solution to a non-existent problem designed to scam people out of $300 and it has worked perfectly so far on people who drink the Kool-Aid.


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## tadawson

I see huge benefits . . . Nothing to gum up, better fuel economy, likely longer plug life due to more accurate mixtures, better power (again, better mixtures), nothing open to air to gum up, no linkages to bend/break/lose or get sticky as dirt accumulates, no mechanical gov to fail and better speed regulation . . . and a controllable throttle (like used to be the norm) that has all but been forgotten due to EPA regs . . . (and I am not considering the detail that carbs will likely vanish before too long, since they aren't precise enough to hit emission limits. Not that I call that a plus to *me*, but it is a reality of this country and time . . .)

And I guess it depends on the user . . . heck, if I had a buck for eveyone here that can't grasp carb cleaning I'd be rich . . . I think the ability of the end user to work on just about anything is dying, since the schools don't bother to teach any of the basic mechanical skills any longer, and kids are more i terested in thumb excercises on phones than working on things an learning how to br self sufficient.

Due to the simplicity of the system, a *competent* tech should be able to isolate a problem in minutes, making repair labor costs a lot lower, albeit (at least for now) with more expensive parts (but that too will come down with more volume and the aftermarket).

Dealers are going to figure out pretty quick that they will need to keep up or fold. Not supporting things because your techs don't have the skills isn't a viable business plan . . .

So, while the application on small engines is still relatively 'young', I see very few problems with the Arien's tech, other than a few problems with infant mortality, and that's likely a QC issue, nothing more . . (And gotta wonder how many of those just had parts thrown at them at expense, since the tech couldn't troubleshoot, resulting in what appeared to be a larger repair bill than it needed to be?)


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## ST1100A

Many other engine makers have been using EFI for years now. Briggs, Kohler, Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki to name a few. They all have a lot of experience with them on many different applications to see how they perform and what they should and should not be used on.
Many different Emergency Service Providers specify Non EFI engines for their equipment because of breakdowns in the "Field". They can't afford to have their stuff breakdown and not be back up and running again within a few minutes time. If they do have an EFI powered unit, they also have a Non EFI powered unit as an Emergency Standby.
To keep all of the "Back-up" parts on hand in case of an emergency would cost them way too much money and is not cost effective considering what the EFI would save them.
The same goes for the Commercial user and the Homeowner. The small engine EFI units just are not reliable enough yet, in the future they may be, but just not at present. That is what scares most users away from them.
I'm sure in the future they will be a Common item if the Government does not relax their crazy emission standards.
You look at many commercial users who rely on having their equipment up and running to complete their jobs, and when their engine fails, they are out of money until it is up and running again. They don't have the time for the loss of said equipment to be down for an extended period of time, it has to be up and running ASAP, plus the cost of repairs.
A simple part on the EFI system could cost them a couple hundred dollars or more, even when troubleshooted quickly, and to keep all of those parts as "spare parts" in supply for the emergency fix will cost them thousands of dollars.
There is no "Real Advantage" with EFI for people to use it. Not enough fuel conservation, it doesn't drop emissions that much, doesn't make engine starting any easier than manually operating a choke and controlling throttle operation, maybe for a Lazy person. Mechanical governors can maintain engine speed just as well for a fraction of the cost, and much easier to adjust or repair. Then you have to look at the reliability of the system, the diagnoses and cost differences.
Some of us do understand EFI operation very well, and all the numerous components that goes with it. When you start talking "Open Loop" and "Closed Loop" which some engines are using both, you start confusing the average person and scaring them away from anything with EFI. 
When the Government starts getting away with forcing us to go with the simple "Open Loop" fuel injection on a small engine, it will be a short time later and they will force us to use the "Closed Loop" system on a small walk behind lawnmower, and the extra cost added to that will be incredible. Then add service, parts and repair to that as an extra cost.
In today's world people want things to be simple that they can easily fix by themselves and are not expensive.
I am an experienced EFI Certified Technician and I know and speak for others that it is not as great as it is advertised. Yes, in the future it may be, once it is perfected and becomes 100% "Bulletproof", but just not at present, it still has a long way to go yet with portable small engines.
Right now everybody wants to be able to repair their equipment by themselves and not have to wait and spend a lot of money taking it to a shop to get repaired.


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## groomerz

The only efi I have actually troubleshooted and repaired myself with a garage tools a multimeter and a service manual was a Kohler command 741. 

Kohler was simple fuel pump, injectors, crank sensor, temp sensor, baron sensor, throttle position sensor. It still used the mechanical govenor though to work the butterfly which made it Very simple. To me it seemed Kohler didn’t redesign system from scratch but used available gm Delphi parts from old 3100 v6 like Harley did on some years of their injected bikes. Proven technology and cheaper aftermarket parts at auto parts store. TPS was worn out in one spot and could measure this with a multimeter. Removed it saw that it was Delphi Went on computer found Delphi tps on Amazon for less than $20 bucks. Kohler was $80. 

Haven’t seen ariens efi. But from description of tps at throttle I assume it has a servo motor on the butterfly. My guess would be older Asian auto technology since motor is LC branded ariens
Can’t imagine fresh proprietary efi but might be wrong. 

I think efi will be the norm as emmession get tougher. I see the point of others as dealer only repair $$$. Here is the thing. The only difference between dealer and self diagnosing in your garage is knowledge, tools , and procedure. We are all men. We just need to learn how. If tech manuals information is available garage repairs can be done. Knowing how to measure millivolts ohms and milliamperes and fuel pressure is the way to troubleshoot efi. 

We live in a disposable world and right now efi is an option not the only option. If it is something you don’t think your capable of troubleshooting don’t get one. If you get efi and it breaks there will always be the harbor freight engine replacement option and it might even be efi in the future for $ . Imagine a 200$ efi engine complete. Efi is newer tech an $$$$. 60 inch TVs used to be 4000$. Now they are $700 

The one thing about the ariens efi that I don’t like or unsubscribes understand is the 8vdc battery. Not a commodity item for replacement available at auto parts store. My 2 cents
Shawn


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ST1100A

"heck, if I had a buck for eveyone here that can't grasp carb cleaning I'd be rich . . . I think the ability of the end user to work on just about anything is dying, since the schools don't bother to teach any of the basic mechanical skills any longer, and kids are more i terested in thumb excercises on phones than working on things an learning how to br self sufficient."

You "Hit the Nail on the head" right there Tadawson.
I agree with you 200% on that statement.


----------



## IowaNick

tadawson said:


> I see huge benefits . . . Nothing to gum up, better fuel economy, likely longer plug life due to more accurate mixtures, better power (again, better mixtures), nothing open to air to gum up, no linkages to bend/break/lose or get sticky as dirt accumulates, no mechanical gov to fail and better speed regulation . . . and a controllable throttle (like used to be the norm) that has all but been forgotten due to EPA regs . . . (and I am not considering the detail that carbs will likely vanish before too long, since they aren't precise enough to hit emission limits. Not that I call that a plus to *me*, but it is a reality of this country and time . . .)


Better fuel economy? Again, even with a 10% improvement it would take you over a thousand fill-ups to recoup the $300.

Plug life? A plug is five bucks and 30 seconds to change. If you used 3 less plugs over the life of the machine that's a recoup of 5%.

Better power? To make that claim, you have to be implying that the 306, 369, 414, and 420 carbed units are underpowered currently on the machines they are installed on. I don't know anyone who would ever make a statement like that. A platinum 24 SHO or Deluxe 28 SHO will go through any snow encountered in a United States residential property at normal walking speed with zero trouble. I'm going to need to be convinced that it needs better power (especially $300 worth).

Gummed up carbs or linkages to break? Gummed up carbs are from neglect, period. Non ethanol or treated gas, run dry at the end of each session, will never gum up a carb. Ever. $300 worth of Sta-Bil will last the lifetime of 5 snowblowers.

Linkages and governor problems? Those almost never break without abuse and neglect, and even if they do, they are easily fixed, at home, for pennies on the dollar compared to a dealer trip.

Look, this is America and one of the many great things about this country is that you can buy whatever you want for whatever price you want. I'm not trying to discourage you from buying 10 EFI snowblowers if you want. But there is simply no tangible benefit in exchange for a $300 upcharge and high risk of downtime and expensive repair bills. If you say you're buying an EFI machine because you think it's cool tech, or that you just like having it that's one thing, and I can understand it. But to say it's got some sort of advantage or cost savings, that's just confirmation bias after tossing away a bunch of cash.


----------



## IowaNick

ST1100A said:


> "heck, if I had a buck for eveyone here that can't grasp carb cleaning I'd be rich . . . I think the ability of the end user to work on just about anything is dying, since the schools don't bother to teach any of the basic mechanical skills any longer, and kids are more i terested in thumb excercises on phones than working on things an learning how to br self sufficient."
> 
> You "Hit the Nail on the head" right there Tadawson.
> I agree with you 200% on that statement.


Even if people can grasp carb cleaning, in 2019 there's no real reason to.

I've bought two used mowers and a Stihl trimmer in the past 5 years that had carb issues. No way am I going to waste hours of my time (which as a busy parent is extremely valuable to me) screwing around cleaning them when I can get my phone out and order a brand new carb from Amazon for $15, and swap it out in 10 minutes tops. Slap it on and the machine runs like brand new. Bought the mowers as a pair for 20 bucks, literally did nothing to either one other than a new plug and carb, about a half hour of my time total including ordering the carbs, and sold each one for $75. The Stihl is an FS46, traded a guy two empty 20lb propane tanks and I've put a ridiculous amount of hours on it for the price of a cheap carb.


----------



## Zavie

ST1100A said:


> Right now everybody wants to be able to repair their equipment by themselves and not have to wait and spend a lot of money taking it to a shop to get repaired.



Ha Ha lol... Right now nobody wants to repair or even maintain their equipment by themselves. What world are you living in? Yes on the forum the percentage of guys working on stuff is high. But in the "real world" the percentage of anyone who works on equipment or replaces a carb is probably less than one half of one percent of owner operators. 

And now another nail in the coffin of carbs. Behold:https://www.stihl.com/STIHL-power-tools-A-great-range/Chainsaws/Petrol-chainsaws-for-forestry/287735-131/MS-500i.aspx

Snowblowers, now chainsaws, soon EFI will rule the world!! MUHAHAHAHAHA!


----------



## IowaNick

Zavie said:


> And now another nail in the coffin of carbs. Behold:https://www.stihl.com/STIHL-power-tools-A-great-range/Chainsaws/Petrol-chainsaws-for-forestry/287735-131/MS-500i.aspx


Again, you're the type of guy that marketing departments are banking on to rip off.

If they told you the sky was green you'd believe them because they made a chart and put it on the internet. That'll be $300, please.


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## Zavie

IowaNick said:


> Again, you're the type of guy that marketing departments are banking on to rip off.
> 
> If they told you the sky was green you'd believe them because they made a chart and put it on the internet. That'll be $300, please.


Clueless bantering from someone who does not understand performance and never will. EFI forever!!!


----------



## ST1100A

IowaNick said:


> Better fuel economy? Again, even with a 10% improvement it would take you over a thousand fill-ups to recoup the $300.
> 
> Plug life? A plug is five bucks and 30 seconds to change. If you used 3 less plugs over the life of the machine that's a recoup of 5%.
> 
> Better power? To make that claim, you have to be implying that the 306, 369, 414, and 420 carbed units are underpowered currently on the machines they are installed on. I don't know anyone who would ever make a statement like that. A platinum 24 SHO or Deluxe 28 SHO will go through any snow encountered in a United States residential property at normal walking speed with zero trouble. I'm going to need to be convinced that it needs better power (especially $300 worth).
> 
> Gummed up carbs or linkages to break? Gummed up carbs are from neglect, period. Non ethanol or treated gas, run dry at the end of each session, will never gum up a carb. Ever. $300 worth of Sta-Bil will last the lifetime of 5 snowblowers.
> 
> Linkages and governor problems? Those almost never break without abuse and neglect, and even if they do, they are easily fixed, at home, for pennies on the dollar compared to a dealer trip.
> 
> Look, this is America and one of the many great things about this country is that you can buy whatever you want for whatever price you want. I'm not trying to discourage you from buying 10 EFI snowblowers if you want. But there is simply no tangible benefit in exchange for a $300 upcharge and high risk of downtime and expensive repair bills. If you say you're buying an EFI machine because you think it's cool tech, or that you just like having it that's one thing, and I can understand it. But to say it's got some sort of advantage or cost savings, that's just confirmation bias after tossing away a bunch of cash.


We've been seeing more failures of the little servo's used with EFI and other electrical components then we ever saw with mechanically operated throttle control linkage. Throttle shaft bushings and shafts do wear out in the throttle bodies and replacement costs are not cheap.
Wait till you start neglecting EFI systems and what that costs, an injector is not cheap and they do fail, and are not serviceable. Then you have all of the added wiring which does fail and creates a headache troubleshooting as compared to carburetor repair and more time consuming. Plus all of your other electrical components like your ECU's, which are failure prone.
So far, we have not seen any savings in anything with EFI usage or better performance, only higher costs involved with maintaining and servicing it.


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## ST1100A

Zavie said:


> Ha Ha lol... Right now nobody wants to repair or even maintain their equipment by themselves. What world are you living in? Yes on the forum the percentage of guys working on stuff is high. But in the "real world" the percentage of anyone who works on equipment or replaces a carb is probably less than one half of one percent of owner operators.
> 
> And now another nail in the coffin of carbs. Behold:https://www.stihl.com/STIHL-power-tools-A-great-range/Chainsaws/Petrol-chainsaws-for-forestry/287735-131/MS-500i.aspx
> 
> Snowblowers, now chainsaws, soon EFI will rule the world!! MUHAHAHAHAHA!


 I and so do many of my customers live in the real world and many "Thousands" of my customers work on their own equipment, so I would say your numbers are quite wrong.
Your percentage is actually up around 30% or higher that work on their own equipment.


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## Zavie

ST1100A said:


> I and so do many of my customers live in the real world and many "Thousands" of my customers work on their own equipment, so I would say your numbers are quite wrong.
> Your percentage is actually up around 30% or higher that work on their own equipment.


You are close it's actually .03% and EFI rocks!


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## ST1100A

Zavie said:


> You are close it's actually .03% and EFI rocks!


I can tell you are pretty much clueless, you might want to learn math a little bit, your decimal point is in the wrong place, and we can all tell you have no experience with EFI at all.


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## Jackmels

Zavie said:


> Clueless bantering from someone who does not understand performance and never will. EFI forever!!!



You know what They Say About Opinions.


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## ST1100A

Zavie said:


> Ha Ha lol... Right now nobody wants to repair or even maintain their equipment by themselves. What world are you living in? Yes on the forum the percentage of guys working on stuff is high. But in the "real world" the percentage of anyone who works on equipment or replaces a carb is probably less than one half of one percent of owner operators.
> 
> And now another nail in the coffin of carbs. Behold:https://www.stihl.com/STIHL-power-tools-A-great-range/Chainsaws/Petrol-chainsaws-for-forestry/287735-131/MS-500i.aspx
> 
> Snowblowers, now chainsaws, soon EFI will rule the world!! MUHAHAHAHAHA!


Son, if your father knew that you were signing onto his account and some of the comments you are making, he would not be too happy about it and with you.


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## tadawson

ST1100A said:


> Many other engine makers have been using EFI for years now. Briggs, Kohler, Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki to name a few. They all have a lot of experience with them on many different applications to see how they perform and what they should and should not be used on.
> Many different Emergency Service Providers specify Non EFI engines for their equipment because of breakdowns in the "Field". They can't afford to have their stuff breakdown and not be back up and running again within a few minutes time. If they do have an EFI powered unit, they also have a Non EFI powered unit as an Emergency Standby.
> To keep all of the "Back-up" parts on hand in case of an emergency would cost them way too much money and is not cost effective considering what the EFI would save them.
> The same goes for the Commercial user and the Homeowner. The small engine EFI units just are not reliable enough yet, in the future they may be, but just not at present. That is what scares most users away from them.
> I'm sure in the future they will be a Common item if the Government does not relax their crazy emission standards.
> You look at many commercial users who rely on having their equipment up and running to complete their jobs, and when their engine fails, they are out of money until it is up and running again. They don't have the time for the loss of said equipment to be down for an extended period of time, it has to be up and running ASAP, plus the cost of repairs.
> A simple part on the EFI system could cost them a couple hundred dollars or more, even when troubleshooted quickly, and to keep all of those parts as "spare parts" in supply for the emergency fix will cost them thousands of dollars.
> There is no "Real Advantage" with EFI for people to use it. Not enough fuel conservation, it doesn't drop emissions that much, doesn't make engine starting any easier than manually operating a choke and controlling throttle operation, maybe for a Lazy person. Mechanical governors can maintain engine speed just as well for a fraction of the cost, and much easier to adjust or repair. Then you have to look at the reliability of the system, the diagnoses and cost differences.
> Some of us do understand EFI operation very well, and all the numerous components that goes with it. When you start talking "Open Loop" and "Closed Loop" which some engines are using both, you start confusing the average person and scaring them away from anything with EFI.
> When the Government starts getting away with forcing us to go with the simple "Open Loop" fuel injection on a small engine, it will be a short time later and they will force us to use the "Closed Loop" system on a small walk behind lawnmower, and the extra cost added to that will be incredible. Then add service, parts and repair to that as an extra cost.
> In today's world people want things to be simple that they can easily fix by themselves and are not expensive.
> I am an experienced EFI Certified Technician and I know and speak for others that it is not as great as it is advertised. Yes, in the future it may be, once it is perfected and becomes 100% "Bulletproof", but just not at present, it still has a long way to go yet with portable small engines.
> Right now everybody wants to be able to repair their equipment by themselves and not have to wait and spend a lot of money taking it to a shop to get repaired.



There are so many errors in what you just posted, I don't know where to start . . . 



First, the Arien's system in discussion here has about *5* parts - hardly a lot to stock for a business owning multiple units. 



There is *NOTHING* to troubleshoot in the e-gov, and they regulate a **** of a lot better than mechanical. The ECU simply reads the frequency of the power off the stator - you know, the part that has been running headlights forever? It gives a perfect signal to determine RPM with *ZERO* extra parts or sensors . . . 



And, keep in mind, that ignition modules have had solid state electronics in them for years, but yet you don't go on your rant over them . . . even though they are in a much higher risk environment, both bolted to the block *and* having high voltage rumbling around in them . . . 



Unless you have seen Arien's failure rate statistics (unlikely) your claim of a high failure rate is a guess at best, and more likely a misguided statement or outright lie to justify your bias . . . And failure rates of other mfg's systems are irrelevant to this conversation . . . 


And information such as "open loop" or "closed loop" only scared away idiots, who probably should not own anything beyond a shovel if they are terrified by knowledge . . . 


Oh, looking at Jack's parts list, the major components for the EFI for a Plat 24 AX369 are the ECU at $149, fuel pump at $99 and throttle body at $161 . . . Not seeing the block temp sensor, but I'd bet under $20, and all other sensors are on the ECU itself . . . Battery is about $20 . . . Looks like the carb for a similar engine will run you $104 for the *correct* one and not some Chinese no-name defecate . . . 



And likely most of the EFI components are the same on all engines - about the only difference would be the ECU software flash, so different PN but still the same physical board . . . 



So, what's my point? You could replace the *ENTIRE* system for under the $500 you rant about (and the chance of needing to do that is negligible, unless Goob is shotgunning parts and not troubleshooting . . . . The most expensive in the throttle body at $172, vs the *RIGHT* carb at $104 . . . More, but not by an amazing margin . . . (of course, I consider carb replacement since some folks seem obsessed with it . . . my experience is that I have never found one that I could not clean and/or rebuild . . . but I guess some folks abuse equipment to the point that it can get to that . . . and apparently, I'm not one of them . . . ). 



And I think of all the time that can be wasted (and see it here often) by folks that screw up carb and gov linkages . .. .that costs $$$ for someone to sort out as well, and since that stuff isn't on an EFI machine, you can't pay to fix what you can't break . . . 



I do feel sorry for the folks that work on this stuff commercially . . . end users do so much insanely stupid stuff just to save a few cents (and invariably cost themselves more) that I can't say that I would want to be in the biz. When I fix something of mine (at least on major service), the plan is to try to get back to as close as factory new condition as possible . . . (which is why I have a 30+ year old mower that runs/specs/measures like new, and cost a lot less than it would have to replace it and get something inferior . . . ). 



And note that *every* one of these parts is available for public sale . . . So, lessee . . . The service docs are online, no special equipment is required, and parts are available. Someone couldn't work on this themselves why again? (Other than falling for the fear mongering?).



But the good news it that folks still have a choice! Myself, I regret that I didn't get the EFI instead of the carbed Platinum last season more by the day . . . I just need to find out how much my butt will hurt if I try to trade up . . . 


(And the throttle issue isn't lazy, it's the simple fact that the EPA has pretty much made the use of a *full range* throttle (IE can run any speed between idle and full . . . ) non viable anymore. And no, I don't want to hear any of the BS about how you shouldn't do that when a) Ariens says it's fine on the EFI and b) I've needed to do that for years, and magically, and golly gee, no ill effects other than better control of where I land snow . . . ). (Not getting into *that* discussion again . . .).


----------



## ST1100A

tadawson said:


> There are so many errors in what you just posted, I don't know where to start . . .
> 
> 
> 
> First, the Arien's system in discussion here has about *5* parts - hardly a lot to stock for a business owning multiple units.
> 
> 
> 
> There is *NOTHING* to troubleshoot in the e-gov, and they regulate a **** of a lot better than mechanical. The ECU simply reads the frequency of the power off the stator - you know, the part that has been running headlights forever? It gives a perfect signal to determine RPM with *ZERO* extra parts or sensors . . .
> 
> 
> 
> And, keep in mind, that ignition modules have had solid state electronics in them for years, but yet you don't go on your rant over them . . . even though they are in a much higher risk environment, both bolted to the block *and* having high voltage rumbling around in them . . .
> 
> 
> 
> Unless you have seen Arien's failure rate statistics (unlikely) your claim of a high failure rate is a guess at best, and more likely a misguided statement or outright lie to justify your bias . . . And failure rates of other mfg's systems are irrelevant to this conversation . . .
> 
> 
> And information such as "open loop" or "closed loop" only scared away idiots, who probably should not own anything beyond a shovel if they are terrified by knowledge . . .
> 
> 
> Oh, looking at Jack's parts list, the major components for the EFI for a Plat 24 AX369 are the ECU at $149, fuel pump at $99 and throttle body at $161 . . . Not seeing the block temp sensor, but I'd bet under $20, and all other sensors are on the ECU itself . . . Battery is about $20 . . . Looks like the carb for a similar engine will run you $104 for the *correct* one and not some Chinese no-name defecate . . .
> 
> 
> 
> And likely most of the EFI components are the same on all engines - about the only difference would be the ECU software flash, so different PN but still the same physical board . . .
> 
> 
> 
> So, what's my point? You could replace the *ENTIRE* system for under the $500 you rant about (and the chance of needing to do that is negligible, unless Goob is shotgunning parts and not troubleshooting . . . . The most expensive in the throttle body at $172, vs the *RIGHT* carb at $104 . . . More, but not by an amazing margin . . . (of course, I consider carb replacement since some folks seem obsessed with it . . . my experience is that I have never found one that I could not clean and/or rebuild . . . but I guess some folks abuse equipment to the point that it can get to that . . . and apparently, I'm not one of them . . . ).
> 
> 
> 
> And I think of all the time that can be wasted (and see it here often) by folks that screw up carb and gov linkages . .. .that costs $$$ for someone to sort out as well, and since that stuff isn't on an EFI machine, you can't pay to fix what you can't break . . .
> 
> 
> 
> I do feel sorry for the folks that work on this stuff commercially . . . end users do so much insanely stupid stuff just to save a few cents (and invariably cost themselves more) that I can't say that I would want to be in the biz. When I fix something of mine (at least on major service), the plan is to try to get back to as close as factory new condition as possible . . . (which is why I have a 30+ year old mower that runs/specs/measures like new, and cost a lot less than it would have to replace it and get something inferior . . . ).
> 
> 
> 
> And note that *every* one of these parts is available for public sale . . . So, lessee . . . The service docs are online, no special equipment is required, and parts are available. Someone couldn't work on this themselves why again? (Other than falling for the fear mongering?).
> 
> 
> 
> But the good news it that folks still have a choice! Myself, I regret that I didn't get the EFI instead of the carbed Platinum last season more by the day . . . I just need to find out how much my butt will hurt if I try to trade up . . .
> 
> 
> (And the throttle issue isn't lazy, it's the simple fact that the EPA has pretty much made the use of a *full range* throttle (IE can run any speed between idle and full . . . ) non viable anymore. And no, I don't want to hear any of the BS about how you shouldn't do that when a) Ariens says it's fine on the EFI and b) I've needed to do that for years, and magically, and golly gee, no ill effects other than better control of where I land snow . . . ). (Not getting into *that* discussion again . . .).


I get to see this everyday, repairing it commercially.
Its good you posted some discount prices, you may have scared people away right there.
You figure not everyone knows how to repair the EFI, so they take it to a dealer and pay the full price, the parts and labor can add up to around a thousand dollars, where if it was just a dirty carburetor it may cost them a little over a hundred dollars, one of the most common problems.
Ignition modules are built with much better insulation on them than other electrical parts, but the module can be expensive when it goes bad, which they do fail.
Probably 95% of the people in the world do not know what "Open Loop" and "Closed Loop" is, so I guess that makes 95% of the people in this world "Idiots". I probably agree with you there at times.
Quite a lot of my equipment is in the 30 plus year age, and it is running very well.
You have to realize, a lot of people on here are talking about EFI in general use, by a lot of different manufacturers, not just one.
and yes, there are many different parts that do not interchange with different engines or manufacturers, they are not all the same.
As you know, the Ariens is a new model that hasn't been out that long, so I would wait a couple of years till they get all of the "Bugs" worked out of it. Most people know not to trust their advertising.
I can only wish you the best of luck when you do buy a new Ariens/LCT EFI machine, and hope it will work flawlessly for you, not everyone has that luck or knowledge to repair it themselves.
I would think that if that said machine worked flawlessly, this post would have never been started in the first place. But it sounds like many people have been having problems with them and having trouble to get them repaired properly. Sometimes the Factory "Support" isn't all that well either, remember, they aren't perfect, and that is what everybody wants, "Perfection".


----------



## tadawson

You have been repairing, specifically the Ariens system commercially? If so, th's relevant . . . other brands, not so much (if at all . . .).

And every failure report (I think maybe two . . ) I have read here has been early, and fully warranted . . . (And no, I don't consider *two* to be the same as *many* . . .

And of course an ignition module has better insulation! I runs high voltage! The ECU runs on 8 max, so duh, it doesn't need as much (and is likely potted or coated, which gives great insulation as well as making it pretty much immune to environmental factors).

People get loud when things fail, and not so much when things work. Not sure what Ariens sales are on EFI, but a number of sellers in MI are stocking the Deluxe with EFI, and don't appear to be having any issues. The more formal dealers will order on request, but don't stock, so hardly a refusal . . . likely more due to folks being cheap . . . 

Were Arien's not an 0lder, established brand with an excellent history of support, my major concern would be ongoing support. Fly by night brand or offshore, I won't touch it at any price.

And yes, I'm not a typical end user. I have found very few elextronic devices that I can't work on, and also build some custom stuff . . . I have both machinery *and* electronics 30+ years old, and both have held up flawlessly (just the electronics typically take a lot less effort to keep running . . .). ****, we have a Heathkit stereo receiver we build in the early 70's that has never failed, and works pretty much as well as the day it was completed, close to 50 years old. Electronics just don't have much to wear . . .


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## ST1100A

tadawson said:


> You have been repairing, specifically the Ariens system commercially? If so, th's relevant . . . other brands, not so much (if at all . . .).
> 
> And every failure report (I think maybe two . . ) I have read here has been early, and fully warranted . . . (And no, I don't consider *two* to be the same as *many* . . .
> 
> And of course an ignition module has better insulation! I runs high voltage! The ECU runs on 8 max, so duh, it doesn't need as much (and is likely potted or coated, which gives great insulation as well as making it pretty much immune to environmental factors).
> 
> People get loud when things fail, and not so much when things work. Not sure what Ariens sales are on EFI, but a number of sellers in MI are stocking the Deluxe with EFI, and don't appear to be having any issues. The more formal dealers will order on request, but don't stock, so hardly a refusal . . . likely more due to folks being cheap . . .
> 
> Were Arien's not an 0lder, established brand with an excellent history of support, my major concern would be ongoing support. Fly by night brand or offshore, I won't touch it at any price.
> 
> And yes, I'm not a typical end user. I have found very few elextronic devices that I can't work on, and also build some custom stuff . . . I have both machinery *and* electronics 30+ years old, and both have held up flawlessly (just the electronics typically take a lot less effort to keep running . . .). ****, we have a Heathkit stereo receiver we build in the early 70's that has never failed, and works pretty much as well as the day it was completed, close to 50 years old. Electronics just don't have much to wear . . .


Yes Sir, many different brands plus Ariens.
A lot of people on this post are talking EFI in general, and many of Ariens. Since Ariens is a new model, we'll have to wait and see how they hold up come this winter, it will be here before we know it.
We have many customers who want us to switch back to carburetor on many EFI powered Kohlers. I tell them the only way I can do that is if you have a mechanical governor controlled throttle set-up, I can't do that with an electronic throttle control that does not have a mechanical governor on the engine. I have a lot of Briggs EFI units, but the Briggs seem to work a lot better than the Kohlers.
Kohler is known for experimenting with everything and leaving the consumer in the "Dust" when it comes to support. Kohler has really gone downhill over the years and their support isn't that good anymore as it used to be when they made a good reliable engine.
We hope the Ariens/LCT system does not have the problems that the others were experiencing until they got the "Bugs" worked out and made improvements.
Thats the last thing you want is to be stuck out in a snowstorm and have the unit fail on you. So we hope that's not going to happen with them.
Some of my customers, "one in a thousand" is too many for them, so we get to work with some real [email protected]#ks. I get to hear them scream every day.
There are a lot of things we don't care to work on and some we refuse.
You know electronics a lot better than many people on here, so you are probably confusing them when they read your technical posts, some of us understand a lot of it though, that's part of the business we are in. With 40+ years in the field, we have to.
Now as to older machinery, you and I know the older the better. They don't build new stuff as good to last like they did the old stuff, that's why we still have our old machines.
I remember them old "Heathkits". They were something back in their day, and it is still working.
So you are into electronics, how about some of those cable TV "Cheater Boxes" ? If you can build one, let me know, I may be an interested customer.


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## tadawson

TV went to dititally keyed encryption, so Inthink the days of the 'cable cheater box' are over, and there is also a history of being able to trace hacked units and press charges, so I think that is a non-starter.


I agree that older was *mechanically* built stronger. Electrical and controls on older stuff is typucally crap by todays standards . . . that stuff is orders of magnitude more reliable now than 'back in the day', despite being more complex . . . Yes, repair will cost more, but typically it will need it far, far, less often . . .


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## TooTall999

Ethanol is a small engine's nightmare. It absorbs water from the air and gums things up. No ethanol no problems!


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## ST1100A

tadawson said:


> TV went to dititally keyed encryption, so Inthink the days of the 'cable cheater box' are over, and there is also a history of being able to trace hacked units and press charges, so I think that is a non-starter.
> 
> 
> I agree that older was *mechanically* built stronger. Electrical and controls on older stuff is typucally crap by todays standards . . . that stuff is orders of magnitude more reliable now than 'back in the day', despite being more complex . . . Yes, repair will cost more, but typically it will need it far, far, less often . . .


DARN!!! .... Well, when you come up with the new Digital,,, Non Traceable,,,, box, let me know, I'd still be interested in it.
Yea, cable companies came up with all kinds of goodies and tricks to catch the "Cheaters". But they already got enough of my money. 
Also, see what you can come up with for an "Internet" box, cable modem. I'm sure you could save us some money there to. 
Let us know, you will have some new customers.


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## ST1100A

TooTall999 said:


> Ethanol is a small engine's nightmare. It absorbs water from the air and gums things up. No ethanol no problems!


And to think, the Government keeps telling us about carbon dioxide and "Greenhouse" gases.
What is one of the biggest producers of Carbon Dioxide/Greenhouse gases?
That would be,,,,, burning ,,,,Ethanol
Awful funny our Government won't admit to that, they want us to burn more if it by raising the amount they put in our fuel.
We already have enough "Dry Gas" or "Ethanol" in our fuel now as it is.


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## bkinsella

What is the down side to EFI?


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## tadawson

Untrained old school knuckle draggers and newly minted "know it alls" having no clue how to work on it. Parts tend to be more $$$ than for carbed engines, but then again, if the system is good, the need should be far, far, lower.

Find a dealer who bothered to train and stock to support it, and should be a non-issue.


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## Jackmels

bkinsella said:


> What is the down side to EFI?



The Repair Bill


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## 2.137269

jackmels said:


> the repair bill


true !!!


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## Zavie

It's been almost a year since @Finnbear posted to this thread. Probably moved south or got another snowblower. Perhaps we will never know.


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## tadawson

Or, it was repaired and has been flawless ever since . . .


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## Zavie

tadawson said:


> Or, it was repaired and has been flawless ever since . . .


I wish we could have a poll in threads like this and vote for what we think happened.


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## tadawson

Zavie said:


> I wish we could have a poll in threads like this and vote for what we think happened.


Or, better yet, an update from the OP. I really don't care what folks who fear what they don't know or understand think about issues like this. 

So, to that end, I'd love a reply from the OP, or the guy who fixed it. These are just too bonehead simple to stay down very long . . . (well, unless the EFI system is smarter than the guy trying to work on it, which is sadly, likely quite often the case . . .)


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## sscotsman

Zavie said:


> It's been almost a year since @*Finnbear* posted to this thread. Probably moved south or got another snowblower. Perhaps we will never know.



Finn last posted in January, and his EFI situation was not yet resolved then..
I'll send him a PM right now, (hopefully he will also get an email alert) and ask if he will update us..


Scot


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## BNSFguy

Well, I was considering EFI but decided to steer clear with my new Blower. Not that EFI is bad or anything, but I preferred "proven" and I have no issues with "carbs", so I stuck with what has worked for me. I just wish I could've gotten last year's 28" Pro RapidTrak with the B & S motor (Ariens PN 926060) with almost 6 quart gas tank instead of this newer LCT motor (Ariens PN 926078) with 3 quart gas tank. I hope these LCT motors are as good. Going to find out.


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## Jackmels

tadawson said:


> Or, better yet, an update from the OP. I really don't care what folks who fear what they don't know or understand think about issues like this.
> 
> So, to that end, I'd love a reply from the OP, or the guy who fixed it. These are just too bonehead simple to stay down very long . . . (well, unless the EFI system is smarter than the guy trying to work on it, which is sadly, likely quite often the case . . .)



I'm Bonehead Smart Enough to Stay Away From It.


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## IDEngineer

Jackmels said:


> I'm Bonehead Smart Enough to Stay Away From It.


That's my position, too. I strongly considered EFI for my brand new Pro32 - I have lots of equipment with EFI and appreciate its advantages - but ultimately decided that simpler things are a huge asset when the snow is flying. It's possible that EFI could be as reliable as an "old school" carbed system, but in case it's not I have a far better chance at repairing a carbed system with tools and parts I already own. Getting this crucial piece of equipment back in service ASAP while the snow is getting deeper all around me might just be the Number One most important "feature" of a snowblower. For that reason I keep spare friction disks, belts, etc. in a dedicated box ready to go. I don't want to have to stock a bunch of EFI parts too.


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## Jackmels

IDEngineer said:


> That's my position, too. I strongly considered EFI for my brand new Pro32 - I have lots of equipment with EFI and appreciate its advantages - but ultimately decided that simpler things are a huge asset when the snow is flying. It's possible that EFI could be as reliable as an "old school" carbed system, but in case it's not I have a far better chance at repairing a carbed system with tools and parts I already own. Getting this crucial piece of equipment back in service ASAP while the snow is getting deeper all around me might just be the Number One most important "feature" of a snowblower. For that reason I keep spare friction disks, belts, etc. in a dedicated box ready to go. I don't want to have to stock a bunch of EFI parts too.



Well Said!


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## tadawson

I made the calls to see what it would cost me to trade to EFI, and at this point I would get killed on $$$. I really regret needing to rush into what I got and ending up with a carbed engine I didn't want (and I knew that . . . and like an idiot, bought it anyway.)

To that end, if anyone in the Michigan UP has an EFI Plat 24, and decided they really wanted carbed, we should talk . . .


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## BNSFguy

tadawson said:


> I made the calls to see what it would cost me to trade to EFI, and at this point I would get killed on $$$. I really regret needing to rush into what I got and ending up with a carbed engine I didn't want (and I knew that . . . and like an idiot, bought it anyway.)
> 
> To that end, if anyone in the Michigan UP has an EFI Plat 24, and decided they really wanted carbed, we should talk . . .


Why did you rush in and buy a "carb" blower if you knew you absolutely wanted an "EFI" ?? I get from reading this thread you like EFI vs carb, but why so much dislike, that you'd unload your carb blower to switch to EFI ?? I don't see that much of a benefit of EFI or a detriment to having a carb version. I'm just curious. Thanks.


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## tadawson

BNSFguy said:


> Why did you rush in and buy a "carb" blower if you knew you absolutely wanted an "EFI" ?? I get from reading this thread you like EFI vs carb, but why so much dislike, that you'd unload your carb blower to switch to EFI ?? I don't see that much of a benefit of EFI or a detriment to having a carb version. I'm just curious. Thanks.


Needed something, and nobody could get the EFI in a timely manner. That, and was also somewhat lied to - the dealer stated with a straight face that this machine had a full range throttle control. Sorry, but full and idle with nothing in between does *NOT* fill that requirement. . . (and figured that out after delivery).

Had that been present, I had determined to force myself to live with the downgrade of no throttle control on the dash (every other machine I have owned has had that, and wasn't interested in losing it).

Lastly, the EFI should be far more tolerant of infequent use, since I am not a 100% resident in that location at this time, and the better mixture control should give a bit better fuel economy (anthought that really wasn't a factor. Power equipment engines just plain don't use enough fuel to matter).

So, it was 'hail mary' an EFI in and not deal with the local deal (who has been good to me for years), do it by hand, or try to accept the compromise. Partly also my fault for not realizing that, despite being close to Brillion, a dealer could not order anything in in a timely manner, and what they could do would add hundreds of $$$ freight above normal pricing. Apparently they only get deliveries in large batches once or twice per season.

The EFI fits all my needs, although a carbed engine could have as well, had they not downgraded the engine controls over the years in such a craptastic way. Between the two, the EFI meets my wishes far, far, better.

I decided this year that I would eat uo to $700 or so to fix my mistake, but found out that it would have been over a grand, and the dealer was claiming (in October) that his order was already in, so the same nonsense about ordering was still in play, even offering 2 months lead time . . .

Despite that, the dealer is great. Delivered it within 24 hours, in a blizzard, and without being paid (that person was out sick, but they delivered it anyhow - as I sakd, this is generally a great dealer . . .) Basically said 'we know where it is, so just show up in the next few days and take care it'.


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## leonz

Do you shut the fuel tank off after each use??

If the engine performance is poor perhaps seafoam would help, that is 
UNLESS the engine is giving you error codes of some sort??


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## tadawson

I have never had bad performance from *ANY* snowblower engine that I have owned - I keep up with things. Having said that, when in that residence, no I never shut the valve because it tends to just wear out valves with no other purpose - seems like it gets run every other day if not more often. End of season, yes run dry, bowl drain, etc. Run Stabil all the time recently . . . back in the 70's and 80's, we never bothered with any additive, and still had no issues. E0 is about 500 feet from the house as well, so run that (despite never having had issues with fuel with ethanol).

I think the only blower carb I ever had to clean had sat 20+ years, and my Dad left fuel in it. Still cleaned up perfectly and runs great. I just don't care for that machine much both due to no dead man clutch (IE, let go and it keeps going until out of fuel) and lack of parts support, hence the new one.

Reread my above: My issue with current carbed blowers is mainly lack of decent controls, and having them on the dash where they should be.

And, I'm not the OP - I have nothing to give error codes . . .still stuck with a carb . . .


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## BNSFguy

tadawson said:


> Needed something, and nobody could get the EFI in a timely manner. That, and was also somewhat lied to - the dealer stated with a straight face that this machine had a full range throttle control. Sorry, but full and idle with nothing in between does *NOT* fill that requirement. . . (and figured that out after delivery).
> 
> Had that been present, I had determined to force myself to live with the downgrade of no throttle control on the dash (every other machine I have owned has had that, and wasn't interested in losing it).
> 
> Lastly, the EFI should be far more tolerant of infequent use, since I am not a 100% resident in that location at this time, and the better mixture control should give a bit better fuel economy (anthought that really wasn't a factor. Power equipment engines just plain don't use enough fuel to matter).
> 
> So, it was 'hail mary' an EFI in and not deal with the local deal (who has been good to me for years), do it by hand, or try to accept the compromise. Partly also my fault for not realizing that, despite being close to Brillion, a dealer could not order anything in in a timely manner, and what they could do would add hundreds of $$$ freight above normal pricing. Apparently they only get deliveries in large batches once or twice per season.
> 
> The EFI fits all my needs, although a carbed engine could have as well, had they not downgraded the engine controls over the years in such a craptastic way. Between the two, the EFI meets my wishes far, far, better.
> 
> I decided this year that I would eat uo to $700 or so to fix my mistake, but found out that it would have been over a grand, and the dealer was claiming (in October) that his order was already in, so the same nonsense about ordering was still in play, even offering 2 months lead time . . .
> 
> Despite that, the dealer is great. Delivered it within 24 hours, in a blizzard, and without being paid (that person was out sick, but they delivered it anyhow - as I sakd, this is generally a great dealer . . .) Basically said 'we know where it is, so just show up in the next few days and take care it'.



Thanks for sharing that information. That explains alot. I can understand your frustration with both the "non adjustable" engine speed (idle and full load) and not having this type of control on the control panel. My old Ariens had that "engine speed" lever on the handlebar. My Honda lawnmower I purchased two years ago has adjustable engine speed too. 
As for the dealer, that's too bad about delivery and being only once a year in a large order. That's rough. Appreciate your taking the time to post. Thank you !!!


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## tadawson

BNSFguy said:


> Thanks for sharing that information. That explains alot. I can understand your frustration with both the "non adjustable" engine speed (idle and full load) and not having this type of control on the control panel. My old Ariens had that "engine speed" lever on the handlebar. My Honda lawnmower I purchased two years ago has adjustable engine speed too.
> As for the dealer, that's too bad about delivery and being only once a year in a large order. That's rough. Appreciate your taking the time to post. Thank you !!!


Thanks

And to note, it was the *other* dealer in town that gave me the bad info on the throttle. Whn I found that they were charging over list and the bigger dealer (that I had dealt with) about 8 miles away was well under for the same machine, I never went back. I guess the big order saves them shipping, since they appear to sell a lot of gear! The closer guy is handy for parts, though . . .about 5 mins from the house and stocks almost everything.


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## Zavie

Finnbear said:


> Thanks all for your help.fingers crossed the dealer can figure this out. Then I'm having a sale. I live in big snow country, and wonder what I should get? I've got a 25 or 30 year old Ariens in my garage that finally gave up. *Once I get rid of this efi pos, what do you all recommend?*


I think that this post back on Dec 29 of 2018 is most telling. He was heck bent on moving on and that's what I think he did.
I'm wondering what he replaced it with?


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## Mtntracker

Make sure battery is completely charged.It is a 7.2 volt remote control car battery so should be 7.2 to 7.8v.If ecu isn't getting full power injectors may not be running at correct pressure.L- ion batteries don't handle cold well.I removed mine and keep inside when not in use.It holds a charge fine if kept inside.


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## Mtntracker

Sorry.Battery is Nimh but still doesn't handle cold well


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## Jhrobert

Finnbear said:


> I've got the new efi and it hasn't run right yet, my dealer said to run premium gas with no alcohol, that's what I've been doing, changed the spark plug, it was badly fouled after 1/2 hour of backfiring and stalling, did I buy a mistake? The dealer hasn't worked on one yet. Im pretty handy, any suggestions? The blink indicator is ridiculous, impossible to count.
> Thanks


Finnbear, what did they find wrong on your machine. I bought one of these the other day. It was running great when I tried it out. The following day I fired it up and let it warm up. As soon as I cranked up the throttle it started smoking with unburnt fuel. I did some research and the machine has no error codes. It has a constant green flashing light. At an idle the machine doesn't smoke. It starts smoking half way to the efficiency point. At full throttle it really smokes. I pulled the spark plug and it is turning black. I don't know if the injector can be taken apart. The ball on the nozzle end is definitely closed when I removed it. I was thinking that there was something holding it open. If somebody has found a solution for this problem, I sure would like to hear about it. I burned through a tank of fuel like nothing today. When the fuel gets down low the motor stops smoking and runs great for about a minute before it stalls.


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## CCRAW

Finnbear said:


> Thanks all for your help.fingers crossed the dealer can figure this out. Then I'm having a sale. I live in big snow country, and wonder what I should get? I've got a 25 or 30 year old Ariens in my garage that finally gave up. Once I get rid of this efi pos, what do you all recommend?


Definitely a non efi. Will you please share what the problem was?


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## GeorgePowell

tadawson said:


> The dealer being an imbecile does not define the system . . . far less to go wrong, and far better control is why I would want it . . .
> 
> It's just not that complicated (well, unless your knuckes drag on the ground . . .).


Strange comment. Not everyone was is born with a wrench in their hands and come here for help. It's like a brain surgeon saying what he does is easy. I'm sure many people don't mind doing maintenance and getting information from hete and you tube videos. Myself, I'm color blind, problem with pastel colors so all the flashing lights and wires is Chinese to me. I had to ask my wife what Color was showing on the battery charger n my " ex" deluxe 30 efi. Not everyone " drags their knuckles".


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## kvanid

Need help here.. bought a delux 30 new in February.. ran it twice, put it in storage with stabilizer in the fuel.. tried to start it now in November and nothing.. got new battery for efi, put in new plug and drained and replaced the fuel, still not starting.. any suggestions out there??


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## LenD

kvanid said:


> Need help here.. bought a delux 30 new in February.. ran it twice, put it in storage with stabilizer in the fuel.. tried to start it now in November and nothing.. got new battery for efi, put in new plug and drained and replaced the fuel, still not starting.. any suggestions out there??


Already posted the above here








Deluxe 30 efi not starting


Ok.. I bought an ariens deluxe 30 new in February.. used it twice, put it in storage come spring. Used stabilizer. Now in November I took it out and charged battery, tried to start it and nothing. Replaced the battery, replaced sparkplug, drained and put in new fuel and still doesn't fire up...




www.snowblowerforum.com


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## jonybegd

Mike C. said:


> Go here:Ariens Order Owners Manuals
> 
> 
> Enter your model number,serial number,click on box for "service manual" and click box for English and hit "electronic manual search".IT'S FREE!
> 
> 
> I made a test run and got the manual you were looking for by using model number 926066 and a made-up serial number:000101.
> 
> 
> This manual is for the NON EFI models.Covers hydro-pro 28,32 and 36 inch models,tracked and wheeled.


For EFI Models search model 921049 for the service manual on "EFI troubleshooting".


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## jonybegd

Finnbear said:


> I've got the new efi and it hasn't run right yet, my dealer said to run premium gas with no alcohol, that's what I've been doing, changed the spark plug, it was badly fouled after 1/2 hour of backfiring and stalling, did I buy a mistake? The dealer hasn't worked on one yet. Im pretty handy, any suggestions? The blink indicator is ridiculous, impossible to count.
> Thanks
> [





Finnbear said:


> I've got the new efi and it hasn't run right yet, my dealer said to run premium gas with no alcohol, that's what I've been doing, changed the spark plug, it was badly fouled after 1/2 hour of backfiring and stalling, did I buy a mistake? The dealer hasn't worked on one yet. Im pretty handy, any suggestions? The blink indicator is ridiculous, impossible to count.
> Thanks


A *"service manual"* is available for troubleshooting *EFI and the codes*. Go to Ariens.com and support, product manuals. Search for model 921049. Ariens is still void in adding it to their new EFI model operator's manuals. Hopefully, they will get up to speed and include it.


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