# New guy asking: Is Honda worth it?



## Chasy

Hello All,
I'm in my 4th winter with my first machine: 2011 Ariens 921013 Deluxe 30 . Now I'm thinking of my next snow blower. Should I go to a tracked model? And why do they say Honda is worth it?
I love that my Ariens always always starts. It still has original belts. But I don't like that it has been into the shop 3 of 4 winters. Also each winter I throw my back out and wonder if a tracked model would be easier to guide. 
Anyway, lots of questions; I think I'm at the right place!

Take care,
Chasy


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## pfn

If it's been in the shop 3 times in 4 winters you don't need a new snow blower, you need a new shop. 
Keep the practically new Ariens and tracks have a down side so ...


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## RoyP

I recommend that you stay away from a tracked machine, they are just a bit harder to maneuver then a wheeled machine. Since your hurting your back with a 30" machine, maybe a wheeled 8/27" machine would be more to your liking. Look at the Toro's


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## Prof100

Chasy said:


> Hello All,
> I'm in my 4th winter with my first machine: 2011 Ariens 921013 Deluxe 30 . Now I'm thinking of my next snow blower. Should I go to a tracked model? And why do they say Honda is worth it?
> I love that my Ariens always always starts. It still has original belts. But I don't like that it has been into the shop 3 of 4 winters. Also each winter I throw my back out and wonder if a tracked model would be easier to guide.
> Anyway, lots of questions; I think I'm at the right place!
> 
> Take care,
> Chasy


Chasy,

I am surprised you haven't gotten many posts. I will say hi and say I have a 1983 Honda single stage that I still use. Only flaw is the fuel shut off plugged up and it is now bypassed. The blower has had routine maintenance and the impellers refurbished because they wore like any single stage. I drain the fuel every season and change the oil. Considering it is 32 years old and it starts on first pull is testimony to its reliability. I stopped using it for a few years because I plowed with the snow blower attachment (with cab) I have for my Woods ZTR mower. When the steel winter cab self destructed due to metal fatique I decided I did not want snow blow without the cab. Plus, it was real PITA to swap out every winter. Enough. 

So I always admired Honda snow blowers but they are pricey. My 2 stage is a Bolens 21" 5 hp. I went to Consumers Reports this year and Honda snowblowers are tested but not that highly rated. CR thinks they are over priced for what you get. They tested about 40 2 stage snow blowers. Highest rated was the Cub Cadet "3 stage" with a score of 90 priced at $1500. Two Honda's test scored 74 and were ranked in 23rd and 24th position out of about 40. Priced at $2700 per their report. They tested wheeled machines in 2014 -- see picture below:









Honda's web page shows machines starting at the low $2000s and up. Both wheeled and tracked. http://powerequipment.honda.com/snowblowers/two-stage-snowblowers

Bill


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## Kiss4aFrog

Welcome to the forum Chasy 

How much area do you need to clean ??

Any idea why the Ariens is so hard on your back ?? Did you have a blower before the Ariens and did your back feel the same from that one ??

Can you expand some on why the machine went back for service each year ??


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## time2time

Hondas are really good machines, and many (including myself) feel they are worth more. The question is 'How much more?'. That 'magic number' also depends on your disposable income and spending patterns.

For me, I could not justify any new blower, much less a steeply priced new Honda. A used Toro is fine for me.. but that is my own personal balance of values and priorities.

I am a fan of Honda cars, and am on my third used Honda vehicle (plus a Honda generator). When I had my first Civic years back and only paid a small premium, I remember commenting to a neighbor (who happened to sell Hondas) that Hondas are great, and pretty much the only way to really go wrong buying a Honda was to overpay for it.

At risk of offending, the fact that you are looking at replacing the Ariens so quickly does suggest that you don't mind spending a few dollars. If you can afford spending 'new Honda' money without it being truly painful, you might consider it. Once you have it and are past the initial expense shock, odds are good that you would love it.


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## Prof100

The heck with a walk behind snow blower. Do what my neighbor did when he had to pull money out of his IRA when he turned 70. This will save your back. He bought a Polaris Brutus XD diesel powered with AM/FM radio, heat and A/C. He bought all the attachments including a blower, blade, lawnmower deck and the bucket. It is really cool.


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## detdrbuzzard

whats causing all the problems with your ariens? as for your back it sounds like you are pulling the machine back rather than using reverse, I know its faster just to pull it but when you are done your back suffers


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## joee5

Man that musta cleaned out his IRA. Its cool though



Prof100 said:


> The heck with a walk behind snow blower. Do what my neighbor did when he had to pull money out of his IRA when he turned 70. This will save your back. He bought a Polaris Brutus XD diesel powered with AM/FM radio, heat and A/C. He bought all the attachments including a blower, blade, lawnmower deck and the bucket. It is really cool.


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## Prof100

joee5 said:


> Man that musta cleaned out his IRA. Its cool though


 It was pricey. I went on line and "built" a virtual equivalent and package totaled $32K. Seemed a bit pricey to me.


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## wdb

Welcome to the boards! I'll pretty much mimic what everyone else has already said. Ariens are highly regarded machines so if yours is giving you that much trouble it would be helpful to learn more about what and why. 

Also if blowing snow with an Ariens throws your back out it is likely that blowing snow with a Honda - or any other machine - will throw it out too. The only feature your Ariens might have that could make a difference is the "Auto Turn" option; some folks find that a machine with that option is harder to keep going in a straight line and that they have to wrestle it more. If that is what is causing your back issues, there are ways to lessen the effect and make the machine more manageable.


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## Coby7

I have a bad back also, You might want to look at the Yamaha which I believe to be comparable to Honda in quality and reliability, at a slightly lower price. I purchased my second 624 and it is very easy to maneuver and only weighs 214lbs. I live in a snowbelt where we received over 350 cms of snow in february I had no problems with my 624 even with that 65cm storm with blowing winds.



http://www.snowblowerforum.com/forum/yamaha-snowblowers/26681-new-yamaha-yt624.html


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## SnowG

I bought a Honda HS928 TAS this year and I like it a lot. Do I think it's overpriced? Yes. Compared with the alternatives? Maybe not. Is it a perfect "dream machine"? No. 

It's a very high quality build, but not as user-friendly as it should be -- I think the principal issues are in the design and layout of the controls. 

If you're having back problems you should know a tracked model is more difficult to turn but will not have a tendency to climb packed snow (such as plow mounds). If your machine is aggravating your back -- is it because you're trying to fight climbing, or because you're pulling it back? If the latter -- use reverse and stop that pulling. If the former, a tracked model (or 25+ pounds of weight added to the front of the auger housing) might help. If you have back problems all the time then consult an occupational therapist and/or chiropractor who can diagnose your condition and recommend exercises to strengthen your core... Been there and have become symptom free by an exercise and stretching regimen.

edit: Actually it was a licensed massage therapist and yoga instructor who helped me find the right combination of exercise and stretching.


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## greatwhitebuffalo

Chasy said:


> Hello All,
> I'm in my 4th winter with my first machine: 2011 Ariens 921013 Deluxe 30 . Now I'm thinking of my next snow blower. Should I go to a tracked model? And why do they say Honda is worth it?
> I love that my Ariens always always starts. It still has original belts. But I don't like that it has been into the shop 3 of 4 winters. Also each winter I throw my back out and wonder if a tracked model would be easier to guide.
> Anyway, lots of questions; I think I'm at the right place!
> 
> Take care,
> Chasy


stick with the Ariens...
with all this sleet and freezing rain the past week or so, I went to my Mom's to clear her driveway yesterday. 
unfortunately, I forgot the can of starting fluid ether...
my stalwart diehard Gilson Unitrol, started barely a few times, would not go to full throttle, then would not start.
the AMF Luminaire gave a few puffs, then would not start
the Craftsman 10-32 did start, but too a LONG time to warm up. 
the Ariens 8/32 started on the 2nd pull, and KICKED ARSE !!

keep the Ariens.
all 4 of these machines sat outside, got soaked in freezing rain, and the carbs all froze up. the linkages froze.

the Ariens had no airbox cover. I had to chip ice off the choke plate. yet it started. it's a 1972 model. 
It's 43 YEARS OLD.

your Ariens is 4 years old. It's not even broken in yet. Realize that machinery made by a company like that, it made to last several generations. It may have been cheapened some compared to the old stuff 40 years ago. But it's still WAY better than a Honda.

A Honda will be pitched in the trash way sooner than 40 years. It will probably only last 10 years, at most. Or not even that.

KEEP THE ARIENS !!


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## db9938

Welcome, and I am not saying that either machine is better than the other. That's up to the operator at the moment, so long as it is running. 

That said, I would be more concerned with a relatively new, needing dealer attention for 3 out of it's 4 years of operation. Is there something that the dealer is consistently finding?

And on another note, tracks add weight, and in most models make them more challenging to turn. There are tricks to make them turn easier, but the tracks are designed to increase traction, not slide around. 


And yet another question comes to mind. Are you injuring yourself with operating the machine, or is it when you load/unload to get it to the dealer?


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## 94EG8

greatwhitebuffalo said:


> the Ariens had no airbox cover. I had to chip ice off the choke plate. yet it started. it's a 1972 model.
> It's 43 YEARS OLD.


What point are you trying to make exactly? I'm guessing all 4 of those machines had Tecumehs on them, other than maybe the Gilson since they were more partial to Briggs & Stratton engines. They put those Tecumsehs on everything from the absolute cheapest bottom of the barrel MTDs up through high end Ariens and Toros. All I'm really getting out of this is that 3 out 4 Tecumehs didn't want to start, or didn't run right once they did. Great odds.



greatwhitebuffalo said:


> your Ariens is 4 years old. It's not even broken in yet.


Also realize if it's 4 years old it doesn't have a Tecumseh on it, you can't use that "these things have been proven to last 40 years" line on it. If it's a Briggs & Stratton engine (which it most likely is) it's a still a fairly new design.



greatwhitebuffalo said:


> Realize that machinery made by a company like that, it made to last several generations. It may have been cheapened some compared to the old stuff 40 years ago. But it's still WAY better than a Honda.
> 
> A Honda will be pitched in the trash way sooner than 40 years. It will probably only last 10 years, at most. Or not even that.
> 
> KEEP THE ARIENS !!


Alright dude, pull your head out of the sand for a minute. There are still tons of HS55s out there that are 30 years old and going strong. I sold one last year for $500, still in great shape and still worth something. I sold my HS928 this fall for $1500, it's about 15 years old and still works great (I sold it to my boss and I still operate it) My current HS1132 is roughly the same age and it works great as well.

I've said this many times before, I've done this as a hobby for many years, I've also done this professionally as a full time job for a couple of years at a shop that was an authorized warranty repair center for both Craftsman and MTD. I have worked on Hundreds of snowblowers, that includes large numbers of MTD, Murray and AYP based machines. But I have worked on Simplicity, Ariens, Honda, and Yamaha as well. I can't ever recall having a Toro come in though. After working on all that stuff here's what I can tell you. Ariens makes a nice solid machine, of all the conventional friction disc snowblowers currently available Ariens is one of the nicest available. But it's not in the same league as Honda/Yamaha at all. Even if you want to go back further I think Gilson made a better machine than Ariens. Honda is and always has been a company focused on engineering and it shows. A Honda is quiet, smooth, great throwing distance and will nearly always start with minimal effort. 1 pull starts are to be expected. The same is true for Yamaha.

In any case this idea that you can't get any more than a decade out of a Honda is just ludicrous.

If you want to buy American for the sake of buying American, that's fine, go for it. But the idea that something is somehow better simply because it's made in American is the most foolish thing I've ever heard.

As for the OP, I own a Honda tracked machine (current one is an HS1132) tracks are harder to turn but the machine doesn't climb. I personally think it's worth the trade off. But if you don't Honda does make wheeled models up to and including the HS928.

Also to respond to your initial question, yes I think it's worth it. I had a couple of wheeled MTDs for years before I had Hondas. Some of the last of the really nice MTDs, when they were still made out of thick sheet metal. I had an 12/33 with an OHV Tecumseh and a 10/28 with a Briggs & Stratton flathead. I don't miss either one, especially the 12/33, it never tracked straight and that Tecumseh needed constant attention.


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## Coby7

94EG8 said:


> But if you don't Honda does make wheeled models up to and including the HS928.


Don't mean to contradict you here but in Canada I don't believe Honda sells a wheeled machine.


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## Coby7

Woops my bad they do make one the "HSS928WC" but they don't sell very many of them.

http://powerequipment.honda.ca/snowblowers


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## 94EG8

They're almost a unicorn here in Canada, but as you found out yes they do exist. I think I saw one pop up on Kijiji once somewhere in NB, can't remember if it was Moncton or Fredericton though.

Edit, I didn't realize the 928 was the only available wheeled model in Canada though. I thought the 724 was also available but I guess not.


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## 43128

sounds like youve got yourself some great american made engines. Ill stick with my clones, hondas, and briggs flattys


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## POG

I can't say if it's worth it for you but I can share with you my experience which is very similar. I just pulled the trigger on a brand-new Honda HS 928 with tracks electric start. It's replacing my Ariens 824 Sno Thro which is about 14 years old.

The Ariens served me well and still runs and does a good job. My biggest issue was that the authorized service in my area is nothing short of abysmal. I live outside of Buffalo New York in the snow belt and having a good reliable machine is A necessity. It's been a brutal winter and my old machine, while it did the job, was underpowered.
I've only run my Honda once, so take my comments with a grain of salt, but I know what it's like to move serious snow. 
I dug out my driveway last week about 4 feet of snow that have been compressed and starting to ice. This is about the worst case scenario For any snow removal situation. Heavy, nasty frozen to the driveway… Very tough.
My Ariens, from experience, had no chance. When snow is that heavy it just chews it and dumps it back on the machine. With the Honda I was literally launching it across the street with no effort.
The Tracks are definitely more difficult to turn but I learned pretty quickly but if I let the machine do the work it's not bad. Just rip it up to high-speed apply a little pressure and it spins around easy. The only time he had any real difficulty was when I was digging out a car that stuck in my driveway. Trying to make a 90° turn was very difficult. If that's not the case then you'll probably be fine. you may be better served with the wheeled model but the advantage of the tracks is if you run the machine right, it'll go through **** near anything. I took mine through the drift by the side of the car which is up to my waist, I'm 6 foot one and Long legged so about 5 feet, I just took it slow and it ate up everything I put in front of It.
The questions you need answered for yourself are these:
How big capacity machine do I need? If you only run it once or twice a season then you can probably save the money.if you're like me and having a good snow removal machine is an absolute necessity it might be worth it.

Can you afford it? I saw one post here that said my neighbor tapped his IRA to buy a piece of equipment. I'd strongly counsel against that, no matter how cool thing looked (and it really did look cool) like I said, my Ariens served me well enough, I wouldn't have purchased the Honda if it was going to strap me financially.
How long do you plan on keeping it? From your description your Ariens is newer than mine. I struggled with whether it was too early to replace mine. I bought The Honda with the idea that I'm gonna keep it at least two decades. I think keeping it that long makes it worth the investment. If you like to trade in your stuff for newer models more often than that (and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that if you can afford it) then maybe you can get a cheaper machine.

That's my two cents anyway, hope you post here what your decision is.


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## dhazelton

OP - is the issue the size of the machine? Like someone else said, if a 30 inch machine is giving you grief then get a 24 inch machine, much easier to handle. I have a Honda tracked machine and a wheeled machine. I much prefer the wheeled machine.

I have a friend with a late 90s Toro and his machine goes to a local shop once a year because he throws a belt. I spent 30 minutes putting it back on for him once and showed him how but he panics over that sort of stuff. If your machine is at a shop for regular maintenance like carb cleaning due to ethanol in the fuel or belts I suggest you learn how to do that sort of stuff yourself. Being self reliant is the only way to go.


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## TomB985

greatwhitebuffalo said:


> A Honda will be pitched in the trash way sooner than 40 years. It will probably only last 10 years, at most. Or not even that.


Have to snicker a bit at that. My HS624 is more than twenty years old. Parts for the old girl aren't cheap, but it's much better made than they Troy-Bilt it replaced.


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## pass1

TomB985 said:


> Have to snicker a bit at that. My HS624 is more than twenty years old. Parts for the old girl aren't cheap, but it's much better made than they Troy-Bilt it replaced.


 +1 here, just sold my little 1993 hs624 today and the guy who baught it was surprised how well it started. I bet that thing will last another 10 years easily.


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## 43128

greatwhitebuffalo said:


> A Honda will be pitched in the trash way sooner than 40 years. It will probably only last 10 years, at most. Or not even that.


thats not true. many people on this forum including me own and operate old Hondas, such as 30 year old Honda hr214s and hra214 are gx140s from the 80s that were used and abused before we got them. if you know the old hr series, the cast aluminum decks never rot and the engines run forever with little maintenance(not that we dont maintain them). just ask Bwdbrn1. Now what was that about Hondas being crap?


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## nZone

greatwhitebuffalo said:


> your Ariens is 4 years old. It's not even broken in yet. Realize that machinery made by a company like that, it made to last several generations. It may have been cheapened some compared to the old stuff 40 years ago. But it's still WAY better than a Honda.
> 
> A Honda will be pitched in the trash way sooner than 40 years. It will probably only last 10 years, at most. Or not even that.
> 
> KEEP THE ARIENS !!


Forget about lasting 'several generations' as the OP's machine had gone to the shop 3 out 4 winters.


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## yarcraftman

If you are having back issues with your Ariens, do you think it is due to trying to pull it backwards slightly when turning tight areas or positioning in your garage?

As a former Ariens and current Honda 724WA owner I can tell you that I have made my back sore by trying to pull on either machine. 

I have some tight areas to navigate so sometimes pulling the Ariens back manually to turn a tight area near a fence for example would hurt my back (I should have used reverse).

With the Honda (they have a transmission to engage or disengage), so when it is engaged you will never move it manually and need to use the machines power. 

However, I can tell you that for myself, I park my Honda in the garage behind a car that I store for winter, the place where I park the 24 inch snowblower is probably 32-36 inches wide I would guess. So I disengage the transmission close to the car, shut the machine down and slowly push it in behind the car. 

My point is that when moving the Honda without the engine running and transmission DIS-engaged itstill takes some effort and if you're not in shape could hurt your back. 

Personally, I think any two-stage unit is going to require more effort on anyone's back. They are all heavier in general compared to a single stage and take some muscle to move around

Good luck with your decision.


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## Prof100

POG said:


> ....
> Can you afford it? I* saw one post here that said my neighbor tapped his IRA to buy a piece of equipment*. I'd strongly counsel against that, no matter how cool thing looked (and it really did look cool) like I said, my Ariens served me well enough, I wouldn't have purchased the Honda if it was going to strap me financially.
> 
> That's my two cents anyway, hope you post here what your decision is.


 Let me clarify because I must not have made it clear enough. He turned 70 and you have to start withdrawing from your IRA when you turn 70. You must withdraw 5% as I recall. I don't think he put a dent in his IRA. 

Bill


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## Prof100

43128 said:


> thats not true. many people on this forum including me own and operate old Hondas, such as 30 year old Honda hr214s and hra214 are gx140s from the 80s that were used and abused before we got them. if you know the old hr series, the cast aluminum decks never rot and the engines run forever with little maintenance(not that we dont maintain them). just ask Bwdbrn1. Now what was that about Hondas being crap?


 I still use my HS 35 single stage I bought in 1983. Starts first pull. It only needed service when I loaned it to my Dad and he left gas in it for 3 years and really gummed up the works.


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## time2time

hard to point to a 10 (or 20, 30, or even 40) year old machine to suggest that is how long a machine of that particular brand should last. So many machines now are be made much cheaper than they were 10, 20, 30 or 40 years ago (lower build cost, leading to a shorter lifespan).

I believe that of the current blowers for sale, Honda makes a high quality machine, though pricing does include a huge premium. I find myself wondering as Hondas become so much higher priced than other manufacturers, if they are not suffering the same steep decline in quality.

Dunno, just thinking out loud (so to speak..)


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## GustoGuy

Chasy said:


> Hello All,
> I'm in my 4th winter with my first machine: 2011 Ariens 921013 Deluxe 30 . Now I'm thinking of my next snow blower. Should I go to a tracked model? And why do they say Honda is worth it?
> I love that my Ariens always always starts. It still has original belts. But I don't like that it has been into the shop 3 of 4 winters. Also each winter I throw my back out and wonder if a tracked model would be easier to guide.
> Anyway, lots of questions; I think I'm at the right place!
> 
> Take care,
> Chasy


 If you have to ask if it is worth it? (Honda) then you are on the fence and are undecided. I myself am willing to turn a wrench and I learn everything I can about a product before I purchase it. I have Never owned a Honda Car or snow blower but I hear they make a fine product and *"YES"* they are willing to charge a premium for that product. As to Ariens they are still in bussiness because they make a fine product and they are willing to price there products such as the Sno-Tek line at prices simular to the lower end models yet the Sno-Tek built by Ariens and have many of the same features minus a few bells and whistles of the Top of the Line Ariens machines. I myself have never been a follower. I do not own any Apple products either. Back in late 2008 my wife and I looked at an Apple I-phone and it was either $399.99 or $499.99 depending if you wanted the 4 gig or 8 gig model. Well Needless to say I waited a little bit and when AT&T had Androids with at $299.99 with a $150 dollar mail in rebate I sprang for an Android and I have been using them ever since.


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## SnowG

time2time said:


> hard to point to a 10 (or 20, 30, or even 40) year old machine to suggest that is how long a machine of that particular brand should last. So many machines now are be made much cheaper than they were 10, 20, 30 or 40 years ago (lower build cost, leading to a shorter lifespan).
> 
> I believe that of the current blowers for sale, Honda makes a high quality machine, though pricing does include a huge premium. I find myself wondering as Hondas become so much higher priced than other manufacturers, if they are not suffering the same steep decline in quality.
> 
> Dunno, just thinking out loud (so to speak..)


I'm on my first year with a new HS928TAS, and although I lack long term experience with this unit I'm not new to small engines/equipment. I feel confident that this is a very high quality build, and the engine purrs and the transmission is a dream to use. What it lacks is some bells and whistles like auto turn, and the control placement is not as user-friendly as it should be, but there is no question in my mind that it will last many years if properly maintained. It's a 1000% improvement over my old Noma / Tecumseh rattletrap that lasted 20 years, which was never even close to this good.


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## time2time

SnowG said:


> I'm on my first year with a new HS928TAS, and although I lack long term experience with this unit I'm not new to small engines/equipment. I feel confident that this is a very high quality build, and the engine purrs and the transmission is a dream to use. What it lacks is some bells and whistles like auto turn, and the control placement is not as user-friendly as it should be, but there is no question in my mind that it will last many years if properly maintained.


I just reread my post, and my wording was not ideal. What I meant is that Honda is very expensive, but I wonder which of the below 3 best applies.

1- Honda is decreasing in quality at a slower rate than other manufacturers
2- Honda is holding quality at the same level
or 3- Honda is actually increasing quality while so many others are decreasing

personally, my 'vote' is either #2 or #3


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## pfn

time2time said:


> I just reread my post, and my wording was not ideal. What I meant is that Honda is very expensive, but I wonder which of the below 3 best applies.
> 
> 1- Honda is decreasing in quality at a slower rate than other manufacturers
> 2- Honda is holding quality at the same level
> or 3- Honda is actually increasing quality while so many others are decreasing
> 
> personally, my 'vote' is either #2 or #3


... and your opinion is just a valid as anyone else's. 
My thinking is that any top line machine will outlive us given good maintenance. 
So if you've got the bucks get the Honda and don't worry what other folks say.


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## Freezn

By and large, most Honda Snow Blower owners are pleased with the performance and build quality. You can't argue with how well these machines hold their value over time and you don't see many on Craigslist because folks who own these machines tend to hold on to them for years and years. That alone speaks volumes. At the end of day, sort through all the feedback and reviews, weigh the Pro's and Con's, and go with your gut instinct.


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## Golfergordy

In reading this thread, I've got comments about 2 topics discussed above:

1) Sore backs: When I use my single stage Honda HS621 SB, my back gets a little sore, similar to when I mow the lawn with my Honda HR214. However, when I use my Craftsman 28" 2-stage SB, it's so heavy that I actually lean on it and rest my body weight on the handles while blowing snow, taking a load off my back, so I have no back soreness. I can't support my weight on the other lighter machines, so consequently, my back hurts a little after each use. 
2) Honda quality: 30 years ago I bought my Honda HR214 lawnmower and it still runs fine and has been maintenance free except for the normal yearly maintenance. I paid a premium for the Honda quality, but have never regretted it. Also, I recently bought a used Honda HS621 SB, which is 15-yrs old, and it runs and throws snow like brand new.


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## 94EG8

A Honda 2 stage is lots heavy to put your body weight on. I'm not quite sure how mentioning a single stage is relevant here?


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## Golfergordy

94EG8,
Maybe he isn't placing his body weight onto the 2-stage, and he's just holding on like it's a single stage???


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## time2time

*Back pain*



Golfergordy said:


> In reading this thread, I've got comments about 2 topics discussed above:
> 
> 1) Sore backs: When I use my single stage Honda HS621 SB, my back gets a little sore, similar to when I mow the lawn with my Honda HR214. However, when I use my Craftsman 28" 2-stage SB, it's so heavy that I actually lean on it and rest my body weight on the handles while blowing snow, taking a load off my back, so I have no back soreness. I can't support my weight on the other lighter machines, so consequently, my back hurts a little after each use.


I have a small property in a relatively light snow area, so back pain is now a problem with the blower. When i shoveled (espec the 'big snow' winter of 2010-11), i found that a good back brace (big coverage of lower back, with suspenders to keep it in place) was most helpful.

Has any of the 'back pain' crowd used them when using their blowers, with any success?


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## Loco-diablo

Honda's are undoubtedly a quality machine. I own a Honda HRX217 lawnmower that I absolutely love, though I can't say it's been trouble free. Will a Honda last longer than a comparable Ariens? That's debatable. It's all in the owner care if you ask me. If you take care of your stuff it will last longer. I work with a guy who's owned a Honda blower for 20 years. He loves it. It is only now requiring some major parts which according to him, are very expensive. Are the Honda machines actually worth twice the price of a comparable Ariens machine? That's for the buyer to decide.


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## david less

Chasy said:


> Hello All,
> I'm in my 4th winter with my first machine: 2011 Ariens 921013 Deluxe 30 . Now I'm thinking of my next snow blower. Should I go to a tracked model? And why do they say Honda is worth it?
> I love that my Ariens always always starts. It still has original belts. But I don't like that it has been into the shop 3 of 4 winters. Also each winter I throw my back out and wonder if a tracked model would be easier to guide.
> Anyway, lots of questions; I think I'm at the right place!
> 
> Take care,
> Chasy


 Yup, best 3000 bucks I've spent, buy the track model

David


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## ST1100A

94EG8 said:


> What point are you trying to make exactly? I'm guessing all 4 of those machines had Tecumehs on them, other than maybe the Gilson since they were more partial to Briggs & Stratton engines. They put those Tecumsehs on everything from the absolute cheapest bottom of the barrel MTDs up through high end Ariens and Toros. All I'm really getting out of this is that 3 out 4 Tecumehs didn't want to start, or didn't run right once they did. Great odds.
> 
> 
> 
> Also realize if it's 4 years old it doesn't have a Tecumseh on it, you can't use that "these things have been proven to last 40 years" line on it. If it's a Briggs & Stratton engine (which it most likely is) it's a still a fairly new design.
> 
> 
> 
> Alright dude, pull your head out of the sand for a minute. There are still tons of HS55s out there that are 30 years old and going strong. I sold one last year for $500, still in great shape and still worth something. I sold my HS928 this fall for $1500, it's about 15 years old and still works great (I sold it to my boss and I still operate it) My current HS1132 is roughly the same age and it works great as well.
> 
> I've said this many times before, I've done this as a hobby for many years, I've also done this professionally as a full time job for a couple of years at a shop that was an authorized warranty repair center for both Craftsman and MTD. I have worked on Hundreds of snowblowers, that includes large numbers of MTD, Murray and AYP based machines. But I have worked on Simplicity, Ariens, Honda, and Yamaha as well. I can't ever recall having a Toro come in though. After working on all that stuff here's what I can tell you. Ariens makes a nice solid machine, of all the conventional friction disc snowblowers currently available Ariens is one of the nicest available. But it's not in the same league as Honda/Yamaha at all. Even if you want to go back further I think Gilson made a better machine than Ariens. Honda is and always has been a company focused on engineering and it shows. A Honda is quiet, smooth, great throwing distance and will nearly always start with minimal effort. 1 pull starts are to be expected. The same is true for Yamaha.
> 
> In any case this idea that you can't get any more than a decade out of a Honda is just ludicrous.
> 
> If you want to buy American for the sake of buying American, that's fine, go for it. But the idea that something is somehow better simply because it's made in American is the most foolish thing I've ever heard.
> 
> As for the OP, I own a Honda tracked machine (current one is an HS1132) tracks are harder to turn but the machine doesn't climb. I personally think it's worth the trade off. But if you don't Honda does make wheeled models up to and including the HS928.
> 
> Also to respond to your initial question, yes I think it's worth it. I had a couple of wheeled MTDs for years before I had Hondas. Some of the last of the really nice MTDs, when they were still made out of thick sheet metal. I had an 12/33 with an OHV Tecumseh and a 10/28 with a Briggs & Stratton flathead. I don't miss either one, especially the 12/33, it never tracked straight and that Tecumseh needed constant attention.


 Wow I had an old Gilson, with the B&S engine with the cam driven PTO, a heavy machine.

Tecumseh went out of business a few years back due to their poor quality. Briggs doesn't even come close to Honda or Yamaha quality.

Honda track drives do climb pretty well, going up steps that is, not climbing in snow while blowing, they dig in.

I've climbed many steep long steps with my Honda 828TAS, even blew snow on steps with it, but that's not a good idea to do for safety reasons.

Ariens are ok snowblowers, I just didn't care for Ariens when they took over Gravely and made them as cheap as could be, not a true Gravely anymore, and stopped making the real Gravely.

I don't care too much for the friction drives, they always slip when they get wet and wear out the rubber drive discs too fast and slip way too much as compared to Honda's hydrostatic drives.

I'm lucky to finish one job with a friction drive, and it is slipping so severely that it has to be taken off the job and replaced with another unit to complete the job, but the Honda keeps right on plowing through and towing the friction drive blowers back to the trailer.


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## Kiss4aFrog

If you can't get one job done with a blower using a friction drive it isn't the friction drive that's the problem.

Friction drives are cheap and easy and there are tons of them out there being used every snow by people who have no problems not only getting their job done but using it snow after snow, year after year without any maintenance or adjustment. I don't recommend neglecting them but they are a highly reliable and proven system.
The hydrostatic system is way more expensive and complex. If that's what you need to be able to do your job, so be it but that doesn't indicate any shortcoming in a friction drive.

I myself would prefer a hydrostatic drive but I can't justify the price for the benefits. Same goes for the Honda. Would love to have one (or two) but can't afford/justify paying that much more for a machine that does the same job my '69 Ariens or even the Estate does.


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## pfn

Kiss4aFrog said:


> If you can't get one job done with a blower using a friction drive it isn't the friction drive that's the problem.
> 
> Friction drives are cheap and easy and there are tons of them out there being used every snow by people who have no problems not only getting their job done but using it snow after snow, year after year without any maintenance or adjustment. I don't recommend neglecting them but they are a highly reliable and proven system.
> The hydrostatic system is way more expensive and complex. If that's what you need to be able to do your job, so be it but that doesn't indicate any shortcoming in a friction drive.
> 
> I myself would prefer a hydrostatic drive but I can't justify the price for the benefits. Same goes for the Honda. Would love to have one (or two) but can't afford/justify paying that much more for a machine that does the same job my '69 Ariens or even the Estate does.[/QUOTI
> 
> I strongly agree.
> Friction drives have worked just fine for a long time. It is true that the hydro's are an improvement when they work and, for the most part, they work just fine. It's when hydro's brake that friction drives' virtues shine. They, unlike hydros, are cheap and easy to fix. When you dump a hydro it will take a trip to the bank to fix .
> No thanks!


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## ST1100A

Kiss4aFrog said:


> If you can't get one job done with a blower using a friction drive it isn't the friction drive that's the problem.
> 
> Friction drives are cheap and easy and there are tons of them out there being used every snow by people who have no problems not only getting their job done but using it snow after snow, year after year without any maintenance or adjustment. I don't recommend neglecting them but they are a highly reliable and proven system.
> The hydrostatic system is way more expensive and complex. If that's what you need to be able to do your job, so be it but that doesn't indicate any shortcoming in a friction drive.
> 
> I myself would prefer a hydrostatic drive but I can't justify the price for the benefits. Same goes for the Honda. Would love to have one (or two) but can't afford/justify paying that much more for a machine that does the same job my '69 Ariens or even the Estate does.


 I like your picture that you have there of the car in the snow.

I forgot to mention that a lot of the jobs we do involve between 4 to 5 miles of travel blowing snow. Maybe it is a little more than the average homeowner, and going up many steep hills.

The friction drive is a very inexpensive design, but it just doesn't hold up with the work that we do. They get wet and slip constantly, or they just plain wear out too quickly. We are constantly replacing the rubber discs.

I would warn people of the John Deere problems of constantly slipping and wearing themselves out. That is why we've been using the Honda's for the past few decades.

The hydro system is a very simple design and very easy to work on, the rest of the drive system is far less complex than the friction disk systems with all of the shafts, chains and sliding parts, moving parts, bushings and bearings.

Out of the 30 plus years and hundreds upon hundreds of Honda hydro drives I've worked on, I've only had to repair or replace 3 of them so far.

I see you have and older Ariens, the old stuff was built far better than todays equipment. That's why when the going gets tough, we break out the old Gravely's. The tractor mounted snow cannons are good for more than just snow removal. They always do a nice job pulverizing bricks, crushing rocks into pebbles, and shredding firewood logs into tiny shreds with little to no damage to the equipment.

You can probably tell that we use our equipment a little bit harder than most people do, but that's our job. We have to rely on our equipment and can't afford breakdowns.


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## 94EG8

ST1100A said:


> The friction drive is a very inexpensive design, but it just doesn't hold up with the work that we do. They get wet and slip constantly, or they just plain wear out too quickly. We are constantly replacing the rubber discs.


That was always my experience as well. When I did small engine repair for a living just about every snowblower that came through the door in the fall got a new friction wheel, they're always wearing out, or cracked. And when I had machines with a friction wheel drive they always, always slipped. New wheel and adjusted properly doesn't mean a thing when they get wet.



ST1100A said:


> The hydro system is a very simple design and very easy to work on, the rest of the drive system is far less complex than the friction disk systems with all of the shafts, chains and sliding parts, moving parts, bushings and bearings.


I never had to touch the hydrostatic transmission yet on any of the Hondas I've owned or worked on. I have had the gearboxes apart though and that's exactly right, they are much simpler and efficient. My only really complaint being that drive pin and I really think they should run in oil, or at the very least if they're going to use grease at least put grease nipples on the gearbox.


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## Blue Hill

94EG8 said:


> That was always my experience as well. When I did small engine repair for a living just about every snowblower that came through the door in the fall got a new friction wheel, they're always wearing out, or cracked. And when I had machines with a friction wheel drive they always, always slipped. New wheel and adjusted properly doesn't mean a thing when they get wet.
> 
> 
> 
> I never had to touch the hydrostatic transmission yet on any of the Hondas I've owned or worked on. I have had the gearboxes apart though and that's exactly right, they are much simpler and efficient. My only really complaint being that drive pin and I really think they should run in oil, or at the very least if they're going to use grease at least put grease nipples on the gearbox.


Ya know, in all my time on this forum, I've never heard so much negative talk directed towards friction discs. One would think if they were such crap, there would be lots of threads discussing the topic, or at least a few.  Not saying for a second that the Hydro isn't a great system, but I don't think the friction disc is as bad as you seem to be saying. IMHO over greasing is much more likely to be the cause of disc slip, than moisture in average use.
As to the question of grease nipples on the gearbox, if you are putting grease in, an equal amount has to come out, or you'll blow your seals, leading to all sorts of problems. A lot of people, when they see a Zerk fitting, think if a couple of pumps are good, a dozen are probably better.
Now I have two questions for poor Chasy, the original poster on this thread.
1. Are You Confused Yet?
2. Are You Sorry You Asked The Question In The First Place?


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## 94EG8

Blue Hill said:


> Ya know, in all my time on this forum, I've never heard so much negative talk directed towards friction discs. One would think if they were such crap, there would be lots of threads discussing the topic, or at least a few.  Not saying for a second that the Hydro isn't a great system, but I don't think the friction disc is as bad as you seem to be saying. IMHO over greasing is much more likely to be the cause of disc slip, than moisture in average use.


I call it as I see it. I've worked on hundreds of machines friction discs are a constant problem. I've certainly seen people not know what they're were doing and get grease on the friction wheel, but normally the problem is indeed moisture.



Blue Hill said:


> As to the question of grease nipples on the gearbox, if you are putting grease in, an equal amount has to come out, or you'll blow your seals, leading to all sorts of problems. A lot of people, when they see a Zerk fitting, think if a couple of pumps are good, a dozen are probably better.


Those gearboxes come with very little grease on them, you can pump a fair bit in at least the first time before you run into any issues.


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## Surge

Just wanted to add my two cents. I like the friction drive on my Simplicity and have not had any problems with slippage for the last four years despite using it in lots of heavy slushy snow. I saw no need whatsoever for me to pay extra cash for a hydro tranny. JMO, and experience.

Obviously it might be different for someone using their machine for commercial use and cannot afford down time. Different strokes for different folks.
Also if you have lots of extra cash and the hydro tranny is something you cannot live without then by all means go for it. Is it worth the extra $ ? You decide, based on your needs, desires, and wallet.


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## ST1100A

94EG8 said:


> That was always my experience as well. When I did small engine repair for a living just about every snowblower that came through the door in the fall got a new friction wheel, they're always wearing out, or cracked. And when I had machines with a friction wheel drive they always, always slipped. New wheel and adjusted properly doesn't mean a thing when they get wet.
> 
> 
> 
> I never had to touch the hydrostatic transmission yet on any of the Hondas I've owned or worked on. I have had the gearboxes apart though and that's exactly right, they are much simpler and efficient. My only really complaint being that drive pin and I really think they should run in oil, or at the very least if they're going to use grease at least put grease nipples on the gearbox.


You are right about the small amount of grease in the gear box.

It could be filled with Amsoil Severe Gear 190w oil that will still flow well enough at -15F.

Another trick if adding a grease nipple to pump in grease is to loosen the gearbox from the side frame before pumping if worried about blowing out seals, then retighten the box, or just put a breather on the box.

There are only a couple of bolts that hold the box to the frame, which are easily accessible.

Honda stuck by their old motto, "We make it simple". Doing that would only add about a minute to the time it would take to grease service to the gear box.

You can also use a GL#00 grease, it is a very thin grease that flows at an extremely low temperature. Its almost like a heavy gear lube, and is often used for gear boxes that require gear lube, but leak, as some gearboxes don't use seals, just metal to metal clearance like some of the older Gravely tractors.

I have replaced some shafts that broke the drive pins on them, usually due to slamming it in drive while they were set at full forward speed, and some being used to push automobiles with.

I have a lot of people who use the Honda snowblowers year round. Winter time for snow clearing, and the rest of the time they remove the auger housings and install their homemade adaptors and weight boxes for added traction, and use them as a car pusher to move automobiles around with. These people have been doing that for decades with the Honda hydro snowblowers. At least they get their moneys worth out of them.


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## ST1100A

dhazelton said:


> OP - is the issue the size of the machine? Like someone else said, if a 30 inch machine is giving you grief then get a 24 inch machine, much easier to handle. I have a Honda tracked machine and a wheeled machine. I much prefer the wheeled machine.
> 
> I have a friend with a late 90s Toro and his machine goes to a local shop once a year because he throws a belt. I spent 30 minutes putting it back on for him once and showed him how but he panics over that sort of stuff. If your machine is at a shop for regular maintenance like carb cleaning due to ethanol in the fuel or belts I suggest you learn how to do that sort of stuff yourself. Being self reliant is the only way to go.


A little trick with carburetors, to help prevent them from gumming up, if you have a fuel shutoff valve, turn the fuel off and run the carb dry every time you are done using the machine. Just remember to turn the fuel valve back on before you go to restart it again.

Most people forget to do that. Run the carb dry, you might restart it again later that day, or it might sit for the next year before being started again, with stale gas in the carb, which will gum up and not ignite in the cylinder, if it ever makes it that far.
Just a little trick that will help the unit start again if it sits for a long time. I do that with all of my equipment, and the snowblower usually starts on the first pull, even though it wasn't started since the year before with last seasons fuel in it.

I use gas stabilizer year round in everything and keep the fuel tanks full at all times.

The less air space, the better, you wont have as much chance of moisture accumulating in the fuel tank and less air for the fuel to "oxidize", which means to go "stale".

A little trick I tell everybody, and the people that do it have a far less problem when starting a machine that sat for a year.


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## wdb

ST1100A said:


> I have a lot of people who use the Honda snowblowers year round. Winter time for snow clearing, and the rest of the time they remove the auger housings and install their homemade adaptors and weight boxes for added traction, and use them as a car pusher to move automobiles around with. These people have been doing that for decades with the Honda hydro snowblowers. At least they get their moneys worth out of them.


I'm speechless. Do you have any pictures of this? Do they use the wheeled models or the tracks? I'm guessing wheels.


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## Kiss4aFrog

Pictures, how about video ?? Would love to see a Honda pushing a car around


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## Blue Hill

wdb said:


> I'm speechless. Do you have any pictures of this? Do they use the wheeled models or the tracks? I'm guessing wheels.


I'd love to see that too. Sounds like a great way to move a grain auger around the yard from bin to bin.


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## [email protected]

Honda makes "power carriers" that have hydrostatic transmissions and controls similar to 2-stage snow equipment. While no longer sold in the USA or Canada, they are still made in Japan and sold in Europe and Australia. The top model has a capacity of 1,100 lbs (!) and runs off a 160cc engine:


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## wdb

Blue Hill said:


> I'd love to see that too. Sounds like a great way to move a grain auger around the yard from bin to bin.


I can think of some other uses too. It's kind of the Gravely-fication of a snowblower.



[email protected] said:


> Honda makes "power carriers" that have hydrostatic transmissions and controls similar to 2-stage snow equipment. While no longer sold in the USA or Canada, they are still made in Japan and sold in Europe and Australia. The top model has a capacity of 1,100 lbs (!) and runs off a 160cc engine:


Robert as always you are a wellspring of information.


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## ST1100A

wdb said:


> I'm speechless. Do you have any pictures of this? Do they use the wheeled models or the tracks? I'm guessing wheels.


I'll have to see if I can find some old pictures of them if I still have them, or when I can get a chance, I will have to take new pictures of them.
The brackets were put on both wheel and track drive units.

They were custom made, hand made pieces that anybody could fabricate.

One of them originally came from a Gravely walk behind tractor, and it was modified to mount to the frame of the Honda snowblower with 8 bolts.

They took the auger housing off, the chute handle, tied the cable back and removed the blower belt, and mounted the pusher assembly in the augers place.

The guys patterned them off of the car pusher adaptors that were built by Gravely for the older "L" model walk behind tractors. They were a simple design, which had a thick piece of rubber mounted on the front area that came in contact with the cars bumper to protect the finish.

They worked pretty well, it sure beat pushing the cars by hand.

Robert from Honda sent some pictures of the Power carrier. I remember those things pretty well, its a shame Honda doesn't have them available in the USA anymore. They were great little workhorses that handled a lot of weight.

We used to overload them constantly and never had a problem with them.


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## ST1100A

[email protected] said:


> Honda makes "power carriers" that have hydrostatic transmissions and controls similar to 2-stage snow equipment. While no longer sold in the USA or Canada, they are still made in Japan and sold in Europe and Australia. The top model has a capacity of 1,100 lbs (!) and runs off a 160cc engine:


Those pictures bring back memories. Too bad the guy was afraid to put any weight in it and go up some real steps, he is babying it too much in those pictures.

I realize the pictures were done to show safety in the workplace, as per Honda advertising, but nobody babied those power carriers. Those things were overloaded and overworked to the maximum, and they could handle the abuse. They were a Honda, not a Briggs & Stratton, Yamaha, Kawasaki, or some other worthless piece of junk.

We used to normally put over 2000 lbs in them and go up steeper steps that that. They went up the steps like they weren't even there.

Honda always did under rate their equipment. Their equipment did a lot more work than what Honda said they can do. They were tough little machines, and people were amazed what that little 5.5 horsepower machine could do.


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## ST1100A

Kiss4aFrog said:


> Pictures, how about video ?? Would love to see a Honda pushing a car around


That would be something I will try and do this summer, make a video of it in action.


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## ST1100A

wdb said:


> I can think of some other uses too. It's kind of the Gravely-fication of a snowblower.
> 
> Robert as always you are a wellspring of information.


I take it you are familiar with the older Gravelys. Yes it is kind of a Gravely-fication, Thank you.

Those older "L" models had like 30+ ft/lbs of torque at 1800 rpm's in a 6 horsepower motor, they were like an old diesel engine on steroids that ran on real low octane gas.

I've been a Gravely "addict" for the past 45 years or so. What we consider "normal" use, everyone else considers severe "abuse" and "overwork".

Those older Gravely's took the punishment and didn't show any signs of wear and tear. That's another reason I like the Honda's, they can take a "beating" and they do a good job of holding up through all the punishment given to them, especially the older generators and motorcycles.


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## ST1100A

Blue Hill said:


> I'd love to see that too. Sounds like a great way to move a grain auger around the yard from bin to bin.


That's hard to say, depending on the size of your grain auger, and the surface you are moving the auger around on. If its pretty flat or hilly.

You may be able to fabricate some type of hitch to fasten it to, and start out at a low speed so you don't jerk it, and chance breaking the little pin on the axle drive shaft. 

It would be hard to say if a wheel or a track would be better.

The car pushers are used on mostly flat surfaces with some slight hills.

If the auger might be too much to move with the Honda, possibly an older "Walk behind Gravely" might do the trick.

The things we do with small power equipment is amazing at times, be we learn to improvise with a lot of things we have at hand, especially at the farms. And we usually get it to work for us.


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