# New Purchase



## pitbull plowing (Mar 5, 2016)

I went to an estate sale yesterday afternoon about 5 blocks from my house, found a like new Ariens ST504 that looks like it was only used 3 or 4 times. They were asking $100.00 for it, a few people looked at it and tried to start it with no success..... I looked at it, the people said they just put fresh gas in it, opened the gas tank and sniffed, smelled like fresh gas. was looking around and saw the fuel shut off valve was in the off position, did not open the fuel valve tried to start it with the fuel valve in the off position which of course it absolutely refused to start..... told them well i could use it for parts, offered them $25.00 for it since it didn't run which after a few minute discussion, they told me if I take it now I can have it for the $25.00. I walked it home the 5 blocks, put it in the garage, went in the house to let hands, fingers and nose thaw out and in about 45 minutes after lunch went in the garage, opened the fuel valve primed it about 5 times, plugged in the extension cord for the electric started and it fired right up and after a 1/4 turn of the screw on the bottom of the carb it runs absolutely perfect. going to change the oil to full synthetic 5w30 and be ready for the 2-5 inches of snow in Chicago tomorrow.


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## sscotsman (Dec 8, 2010)

Well..if you can live with yourself after being so dishonest, then..good for you? I guess...

Scot


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

sscotsman said:


> Well..if you can live with yourself after being so dishonest, then..good for you? I guess...
> 
> Scot


I'm an idiot, I would have moved the fuel shutoff, started it, and handed them $100. I'm stupid that way I guess.

Even at $100 it's a bargain.


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## Lunta (Dec 14, 2017)

pitbull plowing said:


> told them well i could use it for parts


Which seems to have been a blatant lie.

Thanks for reminding me that there are plenty of dishonest people around, some brazen enough to boast about it on a public forum.


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## vinnycom (Nov 6, 2017)

kudos to op. if u dont know what youre selling then dont be selling it and just give it away. they made $25 and he froze his arse off bringing it home


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## detdrbuzzard (Jan 20, 2012)

congrats on your $25 score pitbull


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

"Pitbull Plowing". Let me as you guys something. I assume Pitbull Plowing is a business. After hearing this story, would you trust this guy to plow your property, personal or business? If a curb gets broken, hits your car, a customer's car, or something else goes wrong, will he own up? Or if no one saw it just leave? Will he over bill for things he didn't do, or were faster/easier than he thought?

Just consider this "anything for a buck" attitude. I wouldn't hire him after hearing that story, it's a mirror into his soul. His lack of conscious. Just sayin'.


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## pitbull plowing (Mar 5, 2016)

vinnycom said:


> kudos to op. if u dont know what youre selling then dont be selling it and just give it away. they made $25 and he froze his arse off bringing it home


after 3 other people looked at it and walked away from it without offering them anything they were happy to get rid of it. If I am selling anything.... a computer to a vehicle i make sure it at least will work and work the way it should within reason, it goes without saying if you are trying to sell a power piece of equipment you should at least make sure it runs or don't offer it for sale.


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## pitbull plowing (Mar 5, 2016)

vinnycom said:


> kudos to op. if u dont know what youre selling then dont be selling it and just give it away. they made $25 and he froze his arse off bringing it home


not to mention it could very well have been a total pile of junk that wouldnt run at all and would have needed hours or work or hundreds of dollars at a shop to get it running, if it won't attempt to fire when your looking at it it could be totally dead. it is a chance that is worth taking for the right price however.


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## JLawrence08648 (Jan 15, 2017)

It was a disaster sale. They could have said check at the end of the day if we still have it. He knew something they didn't and he took the chance. No different than being at an auction and bidding. It wasn't his job or responsibility to tell them what was wrong with it. They had weeks or months to get this fixed and running to sell at a higher price and they choose not to.


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## pitbull plowing (Mar 5, 2016)

JLawrence08648 said:


> It was a disaster sale. They could have said check at the end of the day if we still have it. He knew something they didn't and he took the chance. No different than being at an auction and bidding. It wasn't his job or responsibility to tell them what was wrong with it. They had weeks or months to get this fixed and running to sell at a higher price and they choose not to.


That was my thought, they also could have said no at which point i would have offered $50. for it but not running i wasn't giving them any more than that.


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## PixMan (Feb 14, 2015)

I would have seen the fuel shut off and mentioned it, then turned it on and tried it. If it didn't start THEN, I would have made the lowball offer because the obvious didn't work and there's no telling how much effort would be required to get it working. That would be truthful and I could live with myself.

We're all different.


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## sscotsman (Dec 8, 2010)

Justification and excuses..
If it makes you feel better, go ahead and beileve those things..
Just know that most people see it for what it is: Justification and excuses for dishonesty.

In this case, he very delibrately ripped them off, he admitted it.
There is really no grey area here. You can try to justify it, but you will fail.

Scot


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## 1132le (Feb 23, 2017)

50 wôuld have been the most i gave running
I had an st504 didnt think much of it
walkway or a deck is all i thought it was good for
maybe with and impeller kit it might have been useable or a small driveway eod not a chance
if you can shovel faster it gets annoying
still would have grabbed it for 50 and put it on c/l for 210 with and impeller kit
i dont think i could even feel good trying to sell it without the kit on it


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

Anyone ever watch American Pickers? Every once in a while, they try to buy something, and the seller gives them a price, and they say "no, it's worth more than that". I saw once they gave a guy $5000 more because what they bought was worth way more than they expected. 

Anyway, just sayin'.


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## sscotsman (Dec 8, 2010)

jsup said:


> Anyone ever watch American Pickers? Every once in a while, they try to buy something, and the seller gives them a price, and they say "no, it's worth more than that". I saw once they gave a guy $5000 more because what they bought was worth way more than they expected.
> 
> Anyway, just sayin'.


The show "Pawn stars" does that too. They wont delibrately rip-off an ignorant seller by offering a rock-bottom price when they know its worth 10 times more. Its fine to "get a good deal" as a buyer..but that is not what we are talking about here. The topic of this thread is delibrate dishonesty and knowingly scamming people.

Scot


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## detdrbuzzard (Jan 20, 2012)

so what would a fair price be for an st 504


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## barney (Nov 21, 2017)

detdrbuzzard said:


> so what would a fair price be for an st 504


That's not the point under discussion. And like the rest of those saying "what about this, what about that", is just obfuscation.


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## barney (Nov 21, 2017)

detdrbuzzard said:


> congrats on your $25 score pitbull


And when you kick the bucket, perhaps he can come by and "score" against your widow. That may have been what happened in the first case.


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## JLawrence08648 (Jan 15, 2017)

I think this is a case of two tranes of thought here and I think both have a valid point. However if I go to a garage sale and see a tool on the table for $5 and I think it's worth $25 used, I'm not going to say let me give you more money. They asked $5, I'll give them that. 

Last summer I brought my wife's RAV4 to a mechanic for the first time, who gave me a cheap price for replacing my fan belt, runs the the water pump and alternator. This was 6pm at night! He said come back at 8pm and he have it replaced. He did, stayed late. This summer I needed the front struts replaced. He told me $120? $140? for both lifetime parts and labor. I told him that was too cheap I would give him $180. I don't mind giving someone more money if I see value or the price is too cheap.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

JLawrence08648 said:


> I think this is a case of two tranes of thought here and I think both have a valid point. However if I go to a garage sale and see a tool on the table for $5 and I think it's worth $25 used, I'm not going to say let me give you more money. They asked $5, I'll give them that.
> .


I think that's preying on people's ignorance. If they KNOW what it's worth and still ask less that's one thing. But if they just don't know, another all together. 

"Hey this is worth more are you sure on that price?" If they say yes, their problem. At least it would clear my conscious.


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## stromr (Jul 20, 2016)

I didn't realize that the ethics and philosophy of the members of this forum were going to be discussed when I joined. I imagine it's a consequence of the internet age that we are all so critical of each other from the safety of our keyboard. For me personally I will continue to live by the motto "people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones."


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## barney (Nov 21, 2017)

JLawrence08648 said:


> I think this is a case of two tranes of thought here and I think both have a valid point. However if I go to a garage sale and see a tool on the table for $5 and I think it's worth $25 used, I'm not going to say let me give you more money. They asked $5, I'll give them that.
> .


Again, not the point under discussion. The OP used subterfuge to take advantage and even bragged about it. If your next door neighbor and good friend died and his wife had an estate sale. Would you go next door and do what the OP did? If not, than kindly tell me what the difference is.


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## barney (Nov 21, 2017)

stromr said:


> I didn't realize that the ethics and philosophy of the members of this forum were going to be discussed when I joined. I imagine it's a consequence of the internet age that we are all so critical of each other from the safety of our keyboard. For me personally I will continue to live by the motto "people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones."


We are not critical of "each other" we are critical of the immorality being passed off as a virtue.


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## sscotsman (Dec 8, 2010)

stromr said:


> I didn't realize that the ethics and philosophy of the members of this forum were going to be discussed when I joined. I imagine it's a consequence of the internet age that we are all so critical of each other from the safety of our keyboard. For me personally I will continue to live by the motto "people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones."



That's a nice sentiment, but it doesnt cut it in the real world..and no one actually does that! 
not literally, and not all the time..you have made a judgment call in this situation! 
if you choose not to share it, thats fine..but you have made a call one way or the other. I think its impossible to be truly neutral.

If everyone truly did that, (dont throw stones, because we live in glass houses) then we wouldnt be able to talk about crime or evil in the world, at all, ever.
but of course we can, do, and should..

Scot

(p.s. I am *not* saying this situation falls under the heading of crime or evil..i was simply making a generalization)


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## barney (Nov 21, 2017)

jsup said:


> I think that's preying on people's ignorance.


Exactly! These guys are suggesting that as long as the person is a stranger than predatory behavior is something to be applauded. They wouldn't do it to their brother (maybe) but the person down the street is fair game. Ugh!


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## 1132le (Feb 23, 2017)

stromr said:


> I didn't realize that the ethics and philosophy of the members of this forum were going to be discussed when I joined. I imagine it's a consequence of the internet age that we are all so critical of each other from the safety of our keyboard. For me personally I will continue to live by the motto "people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones."[/QUOTE
> 
> Unless you are the sbf police officer then you can pick and choose as you wish
> tell posters you cant post on this thread anymore
> ...


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## sscotsman (Dec 8, 2010)

1132le said:


> Unless you are the sbf police officer then you can pick and choose as you wish
> tell posters you cant post on this thread anymore
> then the poster does again saying it was before he was told he coudnt
> then the next day post to it again


The first post was being written *before* and during my post..but because it was so long, it was posted one minute later, and it was posted before he saw my post. Since it technically existed before my post, it was worthy of an exception.

I missed the second post. He probably simply forgot what thread he wasnt supposted to post in, an honest mistake. He also immediately apologized yesterday, via pm, for his behavior. You never have. 

Scot


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## 1132le (Feb 23, 2017)

sscotsman said:


> The first post was being written *before* and during my post..but because it was so long, it was posted one minute later, and it was posted before he saw my post. Since it technically existed before my post, it was worthy of an exception.
> 
> I missed the second post. He probably simply forgot what thread he wasnt supposted to post in, an honest mistake. He also immediately apologized yesterday, via pm, for his behavior. You never have.
> 
> Scot


I dont say iam sorry if i dont do anything wrong scott 
he was harping about ariens honda is there any other brand yada yada for 2 days w ith none of it being helpfull to the thread
All i said was name a better machine for 1200 then an ariens 28 sho and iam bickiering?? realllyyyyyyyyyyyy
this 1 day at bandcamp


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## sscotsman (Dec 8, 2010)

1132le said:


> I dont say iam sorry if i dont do anything wrong scott


Yep, all the moderators know this about you. Which is why we pay special attention to your posts and give you special scrutiny.  its because you never do anything wrong. Keep it up.

Scot


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## Sprocket024 (Dec 23, 2017)

Sounds like a pretty shady deal to me. Way to take advantage of a family that obviously just lost a loved one.


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## 1132le (Feb 23, 2017)

sscotsman said:


> Yep, all the moderators know this about you. Which is why we pay special attention to your posts and give you special scrutiny.  its because you never do anything wrong. Keep it up.
> 
> Scot


ty for the compliment


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## The Q (Dec 19, 2016)

I don't think I would have done that but also the OP took a chance on buying it. No one knows the circumstances of the estate sale so it is what it is.


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## vinnycom (Nov 6, 2017)

Sprocket024 said:


> Sounds like a pretty shady deal to me. Way to take advantage of a family that obviously just lost a loved one.


wow, small world, u actually knew the family, maybe u should of bought it and offered even more to help them out


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## Miles (Sep 16, 2016)

I had to chuckle about this one! 
On one hand, Caveat Emptor, "the principle that the buyer alone is responsible for checking the quality and suitability of goods before a purchase is made".(Wiki) He did not really know if the machine would start when he bought it and it could have been run without oil. He, as buyer, assumed all the risk. 
On the other hand, trying to start it without turning the valve on when you know it won't start is what John Paul Sartre (an atheist) would call "Bad Faith". 
It may have been unethical, but not immoral. That's what is being objected to here.  Sartre thought that we should try to live as if we represent what we consider to be the "perfect human". We represent all humanity in our individual actions.

I think that he could be a good plowman, and he's a shrewd businessman, but I wouldn't play poker with him!


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## cranman (Jan 23, 2016)

This is a good thread...I buy a lot of broken, used equipment...fix it freshen it and sell it. Some times I get taken as the owner misrepresents the problem...but not too often.....mainly because I don't let myself be into it for crazy money. The OP wants to sell it because its broken or troublesome....and many just go to the dump with them. when I get the machine home....sometimes it is just an adjustment on a cable, sometimes the belt just fell off, but sometimes the gearbox is trashed or the transmission has a serious problem. I won't try to talk someone down on price if it is priced reasonably but will make an offer if there isn't enough wiggle room to make a profit. Buying used equipment from a not knowledgeable owner is risky, and you can't buy a non running machine or broken machine for its full value. When I sell a machine, I stand behind it, and try to give the new owner full value. when I repair a customers machine...I never pad the bill or charge more for the parts then I paid ( I get a great discount on parts). I know people that frequent yard sales and buy Sterling silver......is it up to them to school the vendor's? tough call........


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## Dauntae (Nov 10, 2016)

I don't see any issue as has been said, How it was presented was a little scummy but he got a good deal, weather the gas was on or off he purchased a non running machine and would not spend a $100 on a non runner and who knows what would have been wrong with it, The fact that it ran was lucky. The seller just wanted it gone and had no idea of the condition or anything about it other than it wouldn't start


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## pitbull plowing (Mar 5, 2016)

I purchased my craftsman 2 stage from a friend of mine who buys them non running and supposedly restores them completely i bought that one for $250, it runs nice but occasionally the carb leaks fuel even after he rebuilt it 3 times and a friend of mine rebuilt it once and the first season both springs broke that put tension on the belts to engage the drive and auger, first the drive went out then the auger quit working and the electric start failed. he said he would warranty it for a year but then moved 300 miles away 2 months after selling it. that clearly wasn't a totally rebuilt machine with the amount of issues it had the first season all of which are solved now except for the occasional carb leak which is solved by turning off the fuel valve when it is done being used for now.


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## crazzywolfie (Jun 2, 2014)

definitely low balled them pretty good for it but i can understand. without the engine running you really never know what your going to get. you don't know if there is possibly issues with the drive system or augers. i recently bought a machine that was very clean but had a pretty destroyed drive system. also had a broken pull start mechanism that i didn't know about. would have likely cost at least $200 in parts to fix if i hadn't had some parts kicking around and would have cost even more if i had needed to pay the couple hours in labor that the job would take. 

the first 2 stage snowblower i ever owned was given to me by a neighbor. thing looked in mint condition but would not fire at all. once i tore into the engine i found a broken cam shaft and crank gear. engine was shot so it required a new engine to get it going again. if i had paid good money for it i would have been annoyed that it was damaged but if it is cheap enough the worst case is you either fix it or sell it as is for parts and hope you get your money back.


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## Smolenski7 (Nov 24, 2010)

Personally, I believe this was totally dishonest for all of the reasons described by several of the posters.

I also think it shows basic differences between people. In it's most basic form, some people only see black and white (or the end result). Other people pay more attention to the shades of grey (or how the end was achieved). Then there are people who think it is all equally important. These people believe that how you reach the goal and the goal itself are the same.

I'm one of those latter individuals. I do my best to lead a very moral life. I'm certainly not living in a glass house by any means, but if given the wrong change, I make the correction.....for example. If I break the glass Santa at Home Depot, I put it in my cart and offer to pay for it at check out (True story, and they didn't make me pay for it. I love HD). 

I think that the op absolutely should have informed the seller that the shut-off valve was in the off position, turned it on, then tried to start the machine. If it started or didn't, he could have negotiated from that point on. This would have been the right thing to do from the beginning to the end. Instead, he took advantage of innocent ignorance. He should be ashamed, but he's not because he only sees in black in white. The only thing that matters to him, at least in this case, is the end result.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

Smolenski7 said:


> Personally, I believe this was totally dishonest for all of the reasons described by several of the posters.
> 
> I also think it shows basic differences between people. In it's most basic form, some people only see black and white (or the end result). Other people pay more attention to the shades of grey (or how the end was achieved). Then there are people who think it is all equally important. These people believe that how you reach the goal and the goal itself are the same.
> 
> ...


My thoughts exactly.


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## barney (Nov 21, 2017)

1132le said:


> stromr said:
> 
> 
> > I didn't realize that the ethics and philosophy of the members of this forum were going to be discussed when I joined. I imagine it's a consequence of the internet age that we are all so critical of each other from the safety of our keyboard. For me personally I will continue to live by the motto "people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones."[/QUOTE
> ...


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## barney (Nov 21, 2017)

The Q said:


> I don't think I would have done that but also the OP took a chance on buying it. No one knows the circumstances of the estate sale so it is what it is.


Thanks, But I know what "it is".


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## pitbull plowing (Mar 5, 2016)

got a chance to use it today in the chicago metro area since we got between 5 to 6 inches of snow. this is my favorite machine now it is an absolute beast. goes thru the end of driveway mess from the village plows like it isn't there best machine I have in the fleet and best deal i have ever found at an estate sale. it is the sellers JOB to make sure the equipment runs or works if they are trying to sell it, not my job to tell them they forgot to turn the fuel valve on if they didn't know a gas engine needs fuel to run. ran it for 3 hours and it ran absolutely perfect and is pretty to look at too nice and orange and black


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## outrag1 (Feb 10, 2017)

I think it's a fine line here. As an opposing view to those against the OP, my neighbor got a new snowblower and was trying to sell his old snowblower (a Toro 8hp two stage) for $200. His ad read "runs great"! The problem is, he never ensured it was running properly for people coming to see it. It was bitter, bitter cold when two gentlemen were trying to start his snowblower (which could have been a simple out of gas or something more serious) and they were there wasting their time for 30 minutes before they left. 


Did the seller give them a break? No! Did the seller have it running like he said in the ad? No! I like my neighbor, he is a good man for many reasons, but I wouldn't have had people come to my house and waste their time if I wasn't sure the product I was selling was as advertised. I don't think it was intentional at all, I think he was just lazy but he wouldn't give the buyer a price break either after wasting their time...it goes both ways.


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## Snowbelt_subie (Dec 20, 2016)

pitbull plowing said:


> not my job to tell them they forgot to turn the fuel valve on if they didn't know a gas engine needs fuel to run.


It's not your job it just shows what type person you are. 🤡

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## vinnycom (Nov 6, 2017)

Snowbelt_subie said:


> It's not your job it just shows what type person you are. 🤡
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


lol, did he ripoff an orphanage ? he made a good deal and maybe saved a whole 25 to 50 bucks, and he walked it home.


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## crazzywolfie (Jun 2, 2014)

exactly. they could have easily said no. i end i say no to a lot of idiots that that want something for nothing even when i make it 100% clear that the price is firm and there is no negotiation. i almost post stuff for sale for higher just because i know i am always going to get them ashats that want to imitate the people on tv and lowball me on stuff.


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## Miles (Sep 16, 2016)

As I said before, I think he's a shrewd businessman. I just don't seen any immorality here. Yes, in the best world, we would not be forced to compete for resources. Everyone would share what they have and all would be the same. Yet, in this current world, we are struggling to stay alive. We have to be shrewd to survive. He used his knowledge when buying a machine and came out ahead. That's just being street smart. 
This got me thinking about buying used cars. It's the salespeople who always tell you that the car is in great shape, and we have all heard stories about how the car had problems later on. I saw all sorts of junk when looking for a used truck and the owners always said that they were in excellent condition. I brought a mechanic along and was ready to buy a GMC turbodiesel that the owner said was "almost perfect". Yet it had a leak in the turbo seals and mechanically had not been serviced-it was a moneypit. The mechanic advised me not to buy it and I had to pay him for his expertise. The body and interior were flawless, but it was far from perfect! Yet the owner seemed like a nice guy on the phone. I had driven 3 hours to buy the truck on his word alone. It cost me 200 bucks and I came home without the truck.
Our guy took the risk on an untested, probably broken snowblower that nobody could start and he ended up with a decent machine. He has every right to enjoy it. In this current economic system, he did not have to explain how to start it. I say "Use it in good health! "


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

Miles said:


> Our guy took the risk on an untested, probably broken snowblower that nobody could start and he ended up with a decent machine. He has every right to enjoy it. In this current economic system, he did not have to explain how to start it. I say "Use it in good health! "


Not exactly. He waited to test it, when he could have tested it very easily in front of the seller. The only reason it was "untested" is because he chose NOT to test it. He knew what had to be done to test it, and didn't. At least not in front of the seller.


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## pitbull plowing (Mar 5, 2016)

jsup said:


> Not exactly. He waited to test it, when he could have tested it very easily in front of the seller. The only reason it was "untested" is because he chose NOT to test it. He knew what had to be done to test it, and didn't. At least not in front of the seller.


You are forgetting 3 other people looked at it and tried to start it so it was a non running machine when i purchased it, it is not my responsibility to see if it will run just because it is at an estate sale, that is the person running the sales job not mine. don't care if it was an estate sale, garage, sale, auction, or a craigslist post.... if the seller is too stupid to make sure it runs, they deserve to loose out. I had to do physical exertion to walk it home 5 blocks too.. actually maybe should have got it for free.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

pitbull plowing said:


> You are forgetting 3 other people looked at it and tried to start it so it was a non running machine when i purchased it, it is not my responsibility to see if it will run just because it is at an estate sale, that is the person running the sales job not mine. don't care if it was an estate sale, garage, sale, auction, or a craigslist post.... if the seller is too stupid to make sure it runs, they deserve to loose out. I had to do physical exertion to walk it home 5 blocks too.. actually maybe should have got it for free.


Don't patronize me. It was a possibly running machine that wasn't getting gas and you knew it. The ethical thing to do would be turn on the gas, try to start it and see if it ran, then negotiated from a point where everyone knew what they were dealing with. 

The fact you had to walk it home is of no consequence, none. Why that is even a point of discussion is ridiculous.

Spin it however it makes you feel better. 

Perhaps they should have paid you to take it.


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## pitbull plowing (Mar 5, 2016)

jsup said:


> Don't patronize me. It was a possibly running machine that wasn't getting gas and you knew it. The ethical thing to do would be turn on the gas, try to start it and see if it ran, then negotiated from a point where everyone knew what they were dealing with.
> 
> The fact you had to walk it home is of no consequence, none. Why that is even a point of discussion is ridiculous.
> 
> ...


whatever.... the point of an estate sale is to get great deals, like a flea market and we all know you would have done the same thing.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

Whatever helps ya sleep. Rationalize it as you wish.


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## pitbull plowing (Mar 5, 2016)

I have no problems sleeping at night and looking for the next estate sale, maybe get another machine, and resell that one


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