# Shedding light on newer machines



## Stability

Ok Guys, 
I’d like to do a comparison of the steel being used on today’s snow blowers, because I don’t believe any of the brands are using the same gauged steel as generations past. The question is are they thicker or stand out from others on today’s machines? I also believe that given that almost all of the engines being built in China are pretty much the same, having cast iron sleeves and the weak link of the newer EPA compliant carbs.

I own an Underdog, a Craft Pro 34” 420cc 2-stage. There is 2 models from both Craftsmen & Troy-Bilt made by MTD with exactly the same build quality (30” & 34”) starting in 2016. In the MTD family they are an 800 series, the Craft Pro 3x & the Troy-Bilt Vortex 3x are not the same as these. In fact I can’t find any other models labeled in the 800 series.

So I’d like to compare brands, but there need to be a year & price range. Let’s use models built from 2014 to present and models not exceeding $1,999 in cost. That will give use 5 years of builds and being able to include the Ariens Platinum & Toro Power Max HD’s.

Using a Vernier caliper is the accurate way to do it, because a line on a ruler can be a mm thick and counting in 2 lines from A/B could end up being 2mm thick (adding 14 ga). 
I was able to get a jump start on this comparison, but was limited because most of the larger models were already sold out at my local dealer, but had an Ariens Deluxe 30” EFI, a Toro 824 OE and a Snapper waiting to be picked up from service.

DECSRIPTION-2016 MTD/ 2018 DELUXE 30”/ 2018 PowerMAX/2014-16 SNAPPER H1730E 
30” -357CC $1,400/ 306CC $1,700/ 824 OE $849/ 30”-420CC $1,650
34”-420CC $1,600

MTD Ariens Toro Snapper
Auger housing (sides & top) 13 ga 13 ga 13 ga 13 ga
Brace joining gearbox to housing 7 ga 12 ga n/a 6 ga
Shave plate 7 ga 11 ga n/a 6 ga
Impeller housing 13 ga 13 ga n/a 13 ga
Auger flights 11 ga 12-13 ga 14 ga 14 ga
Impeller blades 11 ga 12-13 ga n/a 11 ga
Transmission box 13 ga 12-13 ga 16 ga 13 ga
Chute & deflector 16 ga 16 ga 16 ga 16 ga
Hanging Chute support mast 11 ga Sq. n/a Sq. n/a none
Shift levers 11 ga 7-8 ga 11 ga ¼ round
Rims 14 ga 15-16 ga 15-16 ga 14 ga

I hope you guys with the Platinum's and the larger Power Max HD's will chime in, I'm curious to see what's what.

So I had created a grid in my Word program and it did not copy/pasted over correctly. Then I spaced everything again while creating thread and then when I posted this was the result! Sorry I tried. All for not 

I even tried to edit and it won't let me line the columns up, I'm so disappointed, all that work for nothing!


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## Stability

Here's the grid I created, hopefully you can view it.


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## micah68kj

Not 100% sure but unless something changed in the past few years Murray built Craftsman blowers.


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## Dauntae

micah68kj said:


> Not 100% sure but unless something changed in the past few years Murray built Craftsman blowers.


Whoever meet the bid requirements builds craftsman, Murray did for years, Husqvarna was for a while also and now MTD makes many of them, I don't think one company makes all as they sold the MTD and Husqvarna made one at the same time but different models.


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## Stability

Yes Murray used to build Craftsman, It's been MTD for quite some time now. My machine has an MTD model number on the sticker.


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## JLawrence08648

All the Craftsman machines with the rectangular impeller exit chutes were Murray made.


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## Xilbus

I'll try to go pick this vernier caliper tomorrow or later this week. I have a old craftsman and a 2009 Ariens


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## zandor

I'm suspicious that you're just a sneaky Home Depot marketing person trying to get me to buy a vernier caliper.  It won't work! My local store is out of stock so I'd just order from someplace online... and probably go with a dial or digital caliper instead.

It would also be interesting to compare smaller models. I have an Ariens Platinum 24, and it weighs a lot more than most 24" machines. Like 280lbs compared to around 180lbs for a typical 24". The Deluxe is 240lbs and the compact is 180. I can't imagine that extra 100lbs is all in the motor.


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## Stability

zandor said:


> I'm suspicious that you're just a sneaky Home Depot marketing person trying to get me to buy a vernier caliper.  It won't work! My local store is out of stock so I'd just order from someplace online... and probably go with a dial or digital caliper instead.
> 
> It would also be interesting to compare smaller models. I have an Ariens Platinum 24, and it weighs a lot more than most 24" machines. Like 280lbs compared to around 180lbs for a typical 24". The Deluxe is 240lbs and the compact is 180. I can't imagine that extra 100lbs is all in the motor.


Zandor, I got a good laugh, thank you, I needed that.

Absolutely, smaller and larger models as well, I just didn't want to get into the commercial models, because they're obviously in a league of their own. If you look and my chart I included the Toro 824.

I'm very curious to see if the platinum's are thicker then the deluxe models too. I really thought more Ariens owners would be chiming in on this.


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## Dauntae

I plan to do a little measuring, just have not had the chance and I’d imagine most do not have the measuring tools.


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## happycamper

I thought I read that Toro uses high strength steel. So the measurements might be the same or less for Toro, but they are much stronger.


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## jsup

happycamper said:


> I thought I read that Toro uses high strength steel. So the measurements might be the same or less for Toro, but they are much stronger.



Good point.



Strength and thickness are not necessarily proportional. A thinner metal of a different material can be stronger. Just ask Captian Edward Smith.


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## Stability

Guys I started this thread (second one by the way, because still no one want's to compare), because I was curious about today's builds vs. generations past. Why? Because no one hear would recommend an MTD. It's always Ariens or Toro. Now I would not be one to say Ariens or Toro makes budget machines, in fact I like their quality, I've used them in the past. But It's always the same reasoning, because there built like tanks or they use thicker steel, or there American or only MTD uses chonda engines.

Well all engine are now made in China.
All 3 of these companies are American and built in the USA with Domestic and global parts, that's the reality and the world we live in.

Now 1st it's built like a tanks. 2nd it's because of thicker steel, now we're moving into "better steel". Well which is it? And why would a snowblower company want to use thinner "better" steel when it costs more per build and makes the machine lighter? Do they think that when they read that we are complaining about the machine being to lite and riding up the plow mound, that that translates into "well maybe we should make them lighter so they can just go up and over the mound"? 

This all sounds like marketing whank to me. It's certainly not the 1st time and certainly won't be the last when Corps market misleading terms or flat out B.S..

I haven't seen any documentation supporting these claims and would question it even if I had.

If you google a conversion chart you'll find columns showing inches/gauge, decimals/gauge, mm/gauge, pounds per sq ft per gauge, pounds per sq inch per gauge, etc, etc. Not this type of steel vs this type of better steel.

I can tell you right now that when I put my fingers on the handles of an Ariens 30" deluxe Or Toro 824, it was effortless to push down, raising the bucket/housing in the air. Now I do not know if that's the case with a platinum or a larger Toro and seems like I won't because the input I've been getting is always "skirting around the edges", if you will.


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## rslifkin

Effort required to lift the bucket isn't really related to total machine weight, it's more related to where they position the axle relative to the heavy bits for weight balance. A stock Ariens Pro has a fairly light bucket (in terms of lifting force), but it's a heavy machine at 330-ish lbs for the lightest variants.


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## groomerz

High strength steel sounds like marketing. next will be ideal crumple zones for less damage to your car when hit. I like the total weight idea. more is better. kind of like brake rotors. would you rather have a 12# or 14# brake rotor. Id like the 14# one .


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## strtch5881

I hate to be a rock in the auger, but I'm going to anyway. You can have some pretty flimsy steel, but when it's stamped a slightly different shape, bends and creases in the right places, turns out to be stronger than the best metals. Case in point, the steel used on todays vehicles isn't really better. It's the shape that makes it stronger. Look at any panel, it's curved from front to back, and top to bottom. Shaped like an egg.


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## DriverRider

I would submit that the composition of the steel has changed that was last used from the "60's. Might have something to do with ore or carbon content? 

We in CT have railroad bridges spanning salt water that are over 100yrs. in age that need replacing, I would bet you will not get that mileage with any steel produced today.


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## strtch5881

Stability,
I can't speak for the Platinum, but had the chance to use a Pro 32, and it's awesome.
3 years ago, we had about 2 feet of snow on the roofs here, higher in the valleys. The forecast showed rain in a couple of days. I grabbed my trusty Minnsnowta Roof Razor (also awesome) and my buddy grabbed his Ariens Pro 32. We cleaned 7 roofs off in 2 days. We switched off every half hour, clearing the roof and blowing away from the buildings. If you ever worked with snow that hit the ground from a roof, wow, it's dense. That Pro 32 went through it effortlessly. Some of the snow from the valleys piled up to 6 feet deep on the ground. My MTD 1032 would've got nowhere with it, while beating me up in the process. Just put the Ariens in low gear and let it chew. It never tried to ride up on the snow and the hand warmers worked so well, you could take your gloves off. To me, that is the only newer machine, that is worth every penny.


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## russ01915

Stability said:


> I can tell you right now that when I put my fingers on the handles of an Ariens 30" deluxe Or Toro 824, it was effortless to push down, raising the bucket/housing in the air. Now I do not know if that's the case with a platinum or a larger Toro and seems like I won't because the input I've been getting is always "skirting around the edges", if you will.


It's called leverage! Try lifting the bucket on a larger Toro powershift. Good luck with that.


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## Stability

rslifkin said:


> Effort required to lift the bucket isn't really related to total machine weight, it's more related to where they position the axle relative to the heavy bits for weight balance. A stock Ariens Pro has a fairly light bucket (in terms of lifting force), but it's a heavy machine at 330-ish lbs for the lightest variants.


So lets measure from front of bucket to the center of tire (axle).

And lets take the scale out of our bathrooms, lift up housing and slide under, let the scraper sit on scale. How many pounds is it?


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## Stability

strtch5881 said:


> Stability,
> I can't speak for the Platinum, but had the chance to use a Pro 32, and it's awesome.
> 3 years ago, we had about 2 feet of snow on the roofs here, higher in the valleys. The forecast showed rain in a couple of days. I grabbed my trusty Minnsnowta Roof Razor (also awesome) and my buddy grabbed his Ariens Pro 32. We cleaned 7 roofs off in 2 days. We switched off every half hour, clearing the roof and blowing away from the buildings. If you ever worked with snow that hit the ground from a roof, wow, it's dense. That Pro 32 went through it effortlessly. Some of the snow from the valleys piled up to 6 feet deep on the ground. My MTD 1032 would've got nowhere with it, while beating me up in the process. Just put the Ariens in low gear and let it chew. It never tried to ride up on the snow and the hand warmers worked so well, you could take your gloves off. To me, that is the only newer machine, that is worth every penny.


I have no doubt that the pro 32 is an excellent machine.

Just a little comparison to note;

Craft pro Ariens pro 32
Cost...................................1,550 - 1,700 .............................starting 2,500
Auger..........................................14".....................................16"
Impeller.......................................14"-4 blade.........................14" - 3 blade
Tires..........................................16x6.5................................16x6.5
Drift cutters....................................Y........................................Y
Hand warmers................................N........................................Y
LED's.............................................7........................................1
Auger belts.....................................1........................................2
Electric start...................................Y........................................Y
one hand........................................Y........................................Y
housing height...............................23.5...................................23.5
Housing width.................................34......................................32
Engine..........................................420cc.................................420cc Both made in China
Disk drive.......................................Y.........................................Y 
steering......................................trigger...................................auto
Gearbox warranty.........................5 yrs...................................5 yrs
Weight...........................................?....................................333.6 lbs

To be fair the Ariens professional is in a different league and not apples to apples.


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## Stability

strtch5881 said:


> Stability,
> I can't speak for the Platinum, but had the chance to use a Pro 32, and it's awesome.
> 3 years ago, we had about 2 feet of snow on the roofs here, higher in the valleys. The forecast showed rain in a couple of days. I grabbed my trusty Minnsnowta Roof Razor (also awesome) and my buddy grabbed his Ariens Pro 32. We cleaned 7 roofs off in 2 days. We switched off every half hour, clearing the roof and blowing away from the buildings. If you ever worked with snow that hit the ground from a roof, wow, it's dense. That Pro 32 went through it effortlessly. Some of the snow from the valleys piled up to 6 feet deep on the ground. My MTD 1032 would've got nowhere with it, while beating me up in the process. Just put the Ariens in low gear and let it chew. It never tried to ride up on the snow and the hand warmers worked so well, you could take your gloves off. To me, that is the only newer machine, that is worth every penny.


I have no doubt that the pro 32 is an excellent machine.

Just a little comparison to note;

Craft pro Ariens pro 32
Cost...................................1,550 - 1,700 .............................starting 2,500
Auger..........................................14".....................................16"
Impeller.......................................14"-4 blade.........................14" - 3 blade
Tires..........................................16x6.5................................16x6.5
Drift cutters....................................Y........................................Y
Hand warmers................................N........................................Y
LED's.............................................7........................................1
Auger belts.....................................1........................................2
Electric start...................................Y........................................Y
one hand........................................Y........................................Y
housing height...............................23.5...................................23.5
Housing width.................................34......................................32
Engine..........................................420cc.................................420cc Both made in China
Disk drive.......................................Y.........................................Y 
steering......................................trigger...................................auto
Gearbox warranty.........................5 yrs...................................5 yrs
Weight...........................................?....................................333.6 lbs

To be fair the Ariens professional is in a different league and not apples to apples.


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## Stability

strtch5881 said:


> Stability,
> I can't speak for the Platinum, but had the chance to use a Pro 32, and it's awesome.
> 3 years ago, we had about 2 feet of snow on the roofs here, higher in the valleys. The forecast showed rain in a couple of days. I grabbed my trusty Minnsnowta Roof Razor (also awesome) and my buddy grabbed his Ariens Pro 32. We cleaned 7 roofs off in 2 days. We switched off every half hour, clearing the roof and blowing away from the buildings. If you ever worked with snow that hit the ground from a roof, wow, it's dense. That Pro 32 went through it effortlessly. Some of the snow from the valleys piled up to 6 feet deep on the ground. My MTD 1032 would've got nowhere with it, while beating me up in the process. Just put the Ariens in low gear and let it chew. It never tried to ride up on the snow and the hand warmers worked so well, you could take your gloves off. To me, that is the only newer machine, that is worth every penny.


I have no doubt that the pro 32 is an excellent machine.

Just a little comparison to note;

Craft pro Ariens pro 32
Cost...................................1,550 - 1,700 .............................starting 2,500
Auger..........................................14".....................................16"
Impeller.......................................14"-4 blade.........................14" - 3 blade
Tires..........................................16x6.5................................16x6.5
Drift cutters....................................Y........................................Y
Hand warmers................................N........................................Y
LED's.............................................7........................................1
Auger belts.....................................1........................................2
Electric start...................................Y........................................Y
one hand........................................Y........................................Y
housing height...............................23.5...................................23.5
Housing width.................................34......................................32
Engine..........................................420cc.................................420cc Both made in China
Disk drive.......................................Y.........................................Y 
steering......................................trigger...................................auto
Gearbox warranty.........................5 yrs...................................5 yrs
Weight................per MTD TECH....396 lbs....................................333.6 lbs

I know the machine is heavy, I know the steel is thicker then others in price range, but I do question the 396 lbs rating. But I did call in on 2 separate occasions with same answer. 

To be fair the Ariens professional is in a different league and not apples to apples.


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## Fat City

Steel is not the same, softer steel might bend, harder steel might crack . Powder Coat [ IMO ] tends to trap water, and increases corrosion damage . These days, almost everything is powder coated high strength steel, which is why a thinner gauge is used. I have a ' parts ' NOMA Pro, auger bucket is rotted, if ran, scraper bar would probably fall off . The ' old ' machines had a softer, thicker gauge, rust resistant metal, treated to baked on Primer and Enamel . 

Best way to judge a new snow blower, is to look at an older one, is the paint falling off in big, swollen, chips ?


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## tonylumps

What surprised me .is when I completely went over my 18 year old Yardman there was not one rust through on the whole front end.It had been completely hot dipped. Other than a little sandpaper and a wire brush it painted up beautiful. Do they still do that today,I do not want to scratch my new Ariens yet to find out .Maybe next season I will take a chip off.


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## ST1100A

tonylumps said:


> What surprised me .is when I completely went over my 18 year old Yardman there was not one rust through on the whole front end.It had been completely hot dipped. Other than a little sandpaper and a wire brush it painted up beautiful. Do they still do that today,I do not want to scratch my new Ariens yet to find out .Maybe next season I will take a chip off.


That's probably because it was made with real steel, not today's "recycled, reformed rust" that they call "steel". It was built in the final days when actual raw virgin steel was made in the USA. Not anymore, the only thing made in the steel mills in the USA today is recycled steel, thanks to the EPA.


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## ST1100A

You have to do a steel comparison on a 1960's Gravely "L" model "walk behind". The 600 pound tractor with the 300 plus pound "Snow Cannon" snowblower. That steel was guaranteed for life. A little thicker and heavier than today's "super commercial" units, and the Gravely was a "homeowners" model.
Those old Gravely's would eat up and spit out the best Areins and Toro units like confetti.
You didn't need hand warmers for those beasts, you worked up a sweat manhandling them, but they were pretty easy to use. The neighbors knew when they were out working from the unique sound of them, hearing the engine roaring and lugging away and the gearbox noise along with the magneto sound. They would look down the street and see the snow flying well over the roof of a two story home across the street.


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## rod330

Fat City said:


> Steel is not the same, softer steel might bend, harder steel might crack . Powder Coat [ IMO ] tends to trap water, and increases corrosion damage . These days, almost everything is powder coated high strength steel, which is why a thinner gauge is used. I have a ' parts ' NOMA Pro, auger bucket is rotted, if ran, scraper bar would probably fall off . The ' old ' machines had a softer, thicker gauge, rust resistant metal, treated to baked on Primer and Enamel .
> 
> Best way to judge a new snow blower, is to look at an older one, is the paint falling off in big, swollen, chips ?


I completely agree. I've found some of the 5 to 15 year old Simplicity (Murray) models to be especially susceptible to peeling and bubbling paint. I've also seen similar but much less severe issues on Ariens units. I don't see many Toro units to compare. Even the most neglected Ariens from the 70's and 80's may have rust but not peeling paint or bubbling.

Obviously clearing snow off the machine after each use and storing it in a heated garage will improve the appearance but I think the cost cutting powder coating process is the main culprit.


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## toms

My 9 yr old Powder Coated Simplicity Signature Pro is constantly cracking at all the welds. I dont think they properly clean the metal before the powder coating is applied and some of the welding flux is in/on the metal at the welds. So far just by constantly touching up the cracks is preventing the bubbles from forming.


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## barney

jsup said:


> Good point.
> 
> 
> 
> Strength and thickness are not necessarily proportional. A thinner metal of a different material can be stronger. Just ask Captian Edward Smith.


The Toro frames are also a reinforced one piece casting?


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## barney

strtch5881 said:


> I hate to be a rock in the auger, but I'm going to anyway. You can have some pretty flimsy steel, but when it's stamped a slightly different shape, bends and creases in the right places, turns out to be stronger than the best metals. Case in point, *the steel used on todays vehicles isn't really better.* It's the shape that makes it stronger. Look at any panel, it's curved from front to back, and top to bottom. Shaped like an egg.


I suspect there are alot of metalurgists that would disagree with that statement about today's auto steel quality.
In anycase the quality of any machine can't simply be boiled down to the thickness of its sheet metal...there are engineering and design considerations at work as well, which you allude to.


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