# Will I regret downgrade from 2 stage to single?



## thatguyjeff (Jan 30, 2016)

St. Paul, MN.
100 ft old concrete drive with cracks and heaves.
Garage is detached and behind the house - drive runs between houses (mine and neighbors) for about 25-30 feet with little space for snow. Sometimes have to throw snow forward/back and then to the side. Don't want to throw snow against his house.
~60 ft sidewalk
plus variety of walks to the house, cobblestone patio/walk in the back, etc.

My trusty MTD is going on 15 years - 4-stroke, 2-stage, 30 inch. No problems ever, but am considering a "preventive" replacement. I don't want to deal with a failure when I need it most.

It's a beast, heavy, can be difficult to handle. We rarely get snowfalls of more than 6 inches in a shot. I'm toying with downgrading to something that my wife can handle (if needed), or better yet my son who is 10 (he just started using the lawn mower last summer).

My pops always said single stage are crap and I've never used one. Always had a 2 stage of some sort.

If I downgrade to a single stage, think I'll regret it?

I'm middle age with a not so good back and the big 2-stage can be a struggle for me to handle at times. I'm not anal about always getting down to the pavement. Snow gets driven over a half dozen times usually before I can get the snow cleared anyway, plus all the cracks and whatnot. Little extra room in the garage would be nice, etc. I'm not adverse to a 2 stroke and I'm familiar with small engine repair/maintenance.


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## Kiss4aFrog (Nov 3, 2013)

:welcome: to the forum jeff


"100 ft old concrete drive"

Sorry to say that's all I needed to see along with you being in the Twin Cities. I think a two stage is more appropriate but I got by when I was younger and living in that area in the city with a no name MTD single. End of drive used to kick my rear but when you're younger it's a challenge. Now I have 10+ horse 32's and I let them or the rider fight the snow for me :wavetowel2:

Have you tried one with a differential or trigger steering ?? Trigger steering might be the way to go if you're having back issues. I'm really amazed with the easy of the big guys with a differential. Up till recently I only had the Craftsman 32" DriftBreaker and it's a tank with the solid axle. Even on snow it can be a bear to try and swing it around for a return pass.


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## thatguyjeff (Jan 30, 2016)

Thanks for the quick reply and welcome my cheese eating neighbor.

Haven't tried trigger steering - man those are expensive. But probably worth it in the long haul I suppose.

My MTD does have a sort of differential where there's a pin on one wheel/axel to go from single wheel drive to two wheel drive. I pretty leave it in the 2 wheel fixed axel drive all winter since my drive is long and straight. Only time I change the pin is when I'm moving it around in the garage from season to season.

I'll look into the trigger steering. Wish there was a way to "test drive." Many of my neighbors hire snow service and don't have throwers.


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## YSHSfan (Jun 25, 2014)

Toro Snowmaster 824....?


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## yarcraftman (Jan 30, 2014)

Jeff I have a similar driveway in Michigan especially with neighbors house with driveway in between and garage detached in yard. 

I had an old 2 stage Ariens that blew up two years ago that was a beast and nice on those twelve inch days which are rare here but happen plus the plow at end of driveway stuff. I replaced with a Honda two stage last year hoping it's my last. 

I also had a 1980s toro single stage for lighter days but hated the oil gas mix bs especially with ethanol. I gave that to brother in law and got a single stage Honda 720AM

I think your Dad was right at one single stages were a joke. But the new ones are much improved. Now most have chutes that you can more accurately direct the snow and they are 4 stroke so no oil gas mix just gas. This Honda 720Am I got is slightly bigger than the old toro but extremely light and maneuverable. I think most single stages are these days. 

If I were you I would consider a single stage in addition to your big girl. My new single stage fits right in the corner of he front of my garage with ease. This way you have a light unit for lighter snows and still have the big MTD for the brutal days. 

And you have a backup unit as well in the event one needs maintenance. Oh and considering your son is just getting into yard work a single stage might be easier for him to use at that age as well. 

Best wishes with your decision.


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

Kiss4aFrog said:


> Have you tried one with a differential or trigger steering ?? Trigger steering might be the way to go if you're having back issues.


Welcome to the forum! I was thinking the same thing as Kiss4aFrog. 

I've had an MTD 2-stage with the simple pull-a-pin system. It wasn't very good in 1-wheel-drive mode, so I left the axle locked together, which made it quite a handful to turn. Especially with chains on it. 

Now I've also had 2 Ariens 2-stages with open differentials. These are used machines, Ariens uses different systems now. I really like the differential system. I can pivot the machine in-place easily, which makes it much easier to handle. My current one is heavier than my old MTD, but much easier to manage. 

I live in New England, I tried a pair of single-stage machines. A cheap 5hp MTD (I was not impressed), and a 3hp Ariens 22". The Ariens was a much better machine. But both machines really struggled when I tried them in maybe 5" storms. That snow may have been somewhat heavy. But they reached a point that they just kind of flailed, and stopped making real progress. They were churning the snow around, more than throwing it. This was still in my driveway, not the stuff at the end. 

I got out my 8hp 2-stage, and easily cleared what they were struggling with. 

They were great in 2" storms, faster and easier than the 2-stage. But there was a point where my single-stage examples were no longer effective. Keep in mind these were older machines, the newer single-stage might be a lot better. I've also heard great things about the gas Toro single-stage, but haven't used one. 

So I sold the single-stage machines, and kept my 2-stage Ariens with a differential. I have the power (10hp, 24" currently) for when I need it, but it's still much easier to move around than my locked-axle MTD 2-stage. I think it's a nice setup. 

A trigger machine might be a great solution, I haven't tried a trigger system.


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## Kiss4aFrog (Nov 3, 2013)

That pinned wheel set-up IMHO is just for moving it around because during use in the snow you only have one drive wheel and there isn't any way you're going to pull that pin each time you need to turn around.

The differentials really do make a world of difference in ease of handling a bigger machine.

Trigger steering is the next step up and yes they're expensive but with back problems you might want to consider a good used one as it would be an investment in easing your back problems. Get a good brand and it's going to last you a good long time. Even with a cheaper one, MTD, Troy, Cub with good maintenance it should also ease the pain in your back for some time to come.

Pushing a single stage through EOD piles and I'm guessing it's going to be catching on those cracks and heaves could make a 2 stage seem real cheap after a few struggles with the single :icon_whistling:


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## thatguyjeff (Jan 30, 2016)

I'm liking the idea of two machines - keep the beast and pick up a second single stage for the lighter snowfalls. Having a back up is good ease of mind. As I said, the MTD is (and has been) running fine but is old enough I wouldn't get much cash for selling it.

I do also have a toro power curve electric that I picked up at a garage sale some years ago for $20, but don't ever use it. That would free some space for a second machine.

Then if the big one goes, I can consider a power steer model. But maybe global warming will catch up with me by then and I won't have to worry about it.

Thanks everyone!


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## Toro-8-2-4 (Dec 28, 2013)

I was going to say it sounds like you may want 2 machines. The single stage will struggle at the end of the drive way and be a struggle with over 12"...... But will be a good machine for your wife and son to use for smaller snow falls. 

You can get 4 cycle 2 stages now. For light fluffy snow under 10- 12" they are fine. Where I live in MA contractors are using them to clear roofs and elevated decks. The are light enough to carry up a stair case and can relatively safely scrap down to the surface.

If you have not had any major issues with your 15 year old MTD and it has been maintained there is no reason to think you can't get more life out of it. Sure, some thing like a cable, friction wheel or spring may need to be replaced but that is a lot cheaper than a new machine.

For your drive way just lift the scrapper a bit so you don't catch any high spots. you can do the heavy work with the 2 stage and clean up the fine work with the single.

They both have unique pros and cons but living where you are, if you were to only own one, go with a 2 stage. 

Of course this is a bad time to be in the market for a new snow blower but you never know. You may find a decent deal on Craigs list.


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## dabuzzard (Jan 28, 2016)

*New Toro single stage Snowmaster*

On You Tube do a search for Toro Snowmaster 824. Then look at the video from the January 2016 storm.
This is the new Toro single stage going through the EOD like it is a 2 stage. I, like you have always had a 2 stage but this one is pretty impressive.
They are only about 135 lbs. and use the Toro personal pace drive system.

I would never have thought a single stage could go through a plow pile like this.


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## Kielbasa (Dec 21, 2013)

To answer your question... (H _ _ L Yeah...) hmy:


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

Depending on how your back handles it, it could still be worth looking for a smaller 2-stage with a differential or triggers. A 30" with a locked axle is going to be a handful. 

Something like an Ariens ST824 (8hp, 24") with a differential would be much easier to handle, while still providing the clearing ability of a 2-stage. Maybe you could get a good deal on a used one at the end of the season. 

Also having a light single stage would be nice.

I have a used electric Toro PowerCurve 1800. It's electric, and small, but I love it. It's 25 lbs of deck-clearing machine. I used it to clear our 2-foot storms last year, it sure beat the heck out shoveling. I've bought ones for my parents and in-laws too, they're great for decks and walkways. Easy to use, and always "starts".


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## detdrbuzzard (Jan 20, 2012)

hello jeff, welcome to *SBF!!* I've had my toro 2450E single stage longer than anything else in the stable and long before getting my first two stage machine. it has gotten me through every storm that has come through the motor city without a problem but I wanted a two stage. the 521 was the first two stage I really got to use and took some getting use to. even as small as it is I find it much easier to use in deep or heavy snow, more relaxing also where as the single stage can be a workout. maybe sell the mtd 30" for something in the 24-28 inch size ( with steering triggers or a differential ) the lighter weigh compared to the mtd might be the ticket and then pick up a single stage for smaller snowfalls


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## thatguyjeff (Jan 30, 2016)

That toro snowmaster looks like a nice compromise and my local big box hardware store has ONLY 15 in stock at the moment. HA! If ever there was an indicator of how mild this winter has been - in the North at least...

Got a line on a Craftsman 88780 that's only a year old. Not the best reviews out there, but they only want $175 for it. I'll be checking that out this afternoon.

5-8 inches forecast for Tuesday, so I should be able to give it a good test soon.


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## bad69cat (Nov 30, 2015)

I bet you will find the majority of the time you like having that SS around to whip out those 2 -3" falls. They are fast and get it right down to clean. I say have both (but then I have about 7 machines right now.... ) lol


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## HogdogJoe (Oct 20, 2016)

While two stage are the "go to" for cracked or uneven driveways, that was largely the advice because single stage self propel via auger drive therefore would get caught on every imperfection. 

Two stage had the benefit of an adjustable skid shoes which could be raised to jump over the gaps at the cost of leaving behind a little snow/ice (which the sun would likely take care of). 

*However* the Toro Snowmaster range is special. It is technically single stage (regardless of what Home Depot erroneously claim) but unlike every other single stage in the market it does NOT use auger drive and is instead self propelled like a two stage. It also has skid shoes. 

But why buy a Snowmaster over a _real_ two stage? To me the answer is simple: weight. If you compare it to similarly priced two stage snowblowers they both have similar horsepower engines, but the Snowmaster weighs a lot less and is physically driving less components. That spare power gets funnelled straight into a higher auger power and a more maneuverable blower. 

For the OP the answer is either a "real" two stage or a Snowmaster. A normal single stage would just get hung up on the imperfections in the driveway. Personally I think the Snowmaster ticks a lot of boxes.


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## bad69cat (Nov 30, 2015)

I've always had a 2 stage and a SS..... it's so nice to have the best of both worlds. Most of the I just use the SS because it's so light and fast for me to get it done. As long as it's a decent quality 5 HP or larger machine it will handle 90% of the snows you get. The big guy I keep around just in case the EOD gets out of control and it's nice because I have to take care of 2 large drives.


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## GoBlowSnow (Sep 4, 2015)

Yes you will regret downgrading. Don't do it.


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## detdrbuzzard (Jan 20, 2012)

" largely the advice because single stage self propel via auger drive therefore would get caught on every imperfection. "
but they will keep going it's not like an imperfection will stop a single stage blower from moving


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## Eafoxjr (Feb 24, 2016)

Toro Snowmaster. The best of both worlds.


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## LouC (Dec 5, 2016)

The Snowmaster looks like the machine you'd want based on your criteria, not too heavy, it is self propelled, it probably could deal with most of the storms you get with ease and it is not that much more, than the bigger most powerful conventional single stages. If your 2 stage was a bit newer, or you were less worried about it then I'd say a good single would be a good second blower and as long as your storms are 8" or less you would be using it most of the time. They do fine in that depth of snow, its when the snow his higher than the intake that they struggle and slow down. If the end of driveway pile is heavy and densely packed, it is a challenge for a single. I've had only the Toro 3000 for 18 years. What I do is break up the end of driveway pile with a shovel taking my time drive is 2 cars wide but on the smaller size, 2 cars long on each side). Then it will get rid of it. I think the Snowmaster esp the more powerful version will do nicely for what you want.


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## matto (Nov 5, 2016)

Regarding the Snowmaster I'm a little concerned about the "cracks and heaves" in the concrete.

How big are these heaves?


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## tdipaul (Jul 11, 2015)

matto said:


> Regarding the Snowmaster I'm a little concerned about the "cracks and heaves" in the concrete.
> 
> How big are these heaves?


Single stager's don't perform very well on driveways with cracks and heaves

The paddle drive mechanism and sheave plate gets caught on them, then the machine stops short and the handle jabs you right in the gut. 

Need something with skids to get the plate off the ground

Based on your light snowfall and the desire for something light(er) I agree with the others and their recommendation for the Snowmaster (724 or 824)


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## DuffyJr (Oct 15, 2015)

How far off the ground are the paddles on the snowmaster, wouldn't some armorskids take care the heaves?


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## NJHonda (Feb 8, 2013)

Not to mention the snowmasters are so darn easy to throw around too. The personal pace is awesome. No gear lever, no gearboxes. And fast.. Probably the fastest ground speed blower I have seen




HogdogJoe said:


> While two stage are the "go to" for cracked or uneven driveways, that was largely the advice because single stage self propel via auger drive therefore would get caught on every imperfection.
> 
> Two stage had the benefit of an adjustable skid shoes which could be raised to jump over the gaps at the cost of leaving behind a little snow/ice (which the sun would likely take care of).
> 
> ...


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## colin.p (Dec 14, 2016)

Well, since it's over a year ago that this thread was started, I wonder what he decided to go with?


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## pearlfinish (Oct 25, 2016)

I second the snowmaster. It's the perfect machine for people that don't need a monstrous two stage, but still need power for the few times it does snow heavy and wet. I bought the 824qxe this year, and I can honestly tell you that I forget it's tecknically a single stage. 

I really think the snowmaster is perfect for most people, but some might be scared to buy it because they think it's weak, and only a two stage will do the job. The snowmaster is still a new machine, but I think with time, people will begin to see it in action more, and buy it to replace a smaller single stage, or a bigger two stage. 

I have yet to encounter snow conditions that my 824qxe handled worse then any of my neighbors bigger two stage units...oh, and it's super faster at doing the same work.


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## topher5150 (Nov 5, 2014)

I would stick with a two stage. I have about 100' of gravel driveway, and parking area to blow, and in the time it takes me to blow through 3"-4" of snow my neighbor with a single stage, and a 25' cement driveway is still struggling.


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