# Question of Curiosity



## Paulie139

To all the Yamaha owners and fans:
I'm in the market for a new snowblower and during my 3 months of research, I quickly realized that Yamaha machines are not available here in the US. Does anyone know why? It seems like Yamaha is missing out on a very huge opportunity having such a high-quality product along with the fact that all of their other items such as snowmobiles, boat engines, musical instruments, ATV's, motorcycles, etc., are all very reputable and do very well here. Why have they held back in this particular market? Again, this is strictly my curiosity causing the inquiry.


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## JnC

Honestly, no one has a definitive answer as to why they pulled out of the US market, all we can do is speculate. They did start selling them again in Canada about 10 years ago or so but did not do the same for the US market. A few times some folks reached out to yamaha corporate HQ to see if they'd ever sell them here again and were told "No". 

It cant be emissions related as the MZ motors that power the yamaha snowblowers can be found on many third party generators, power washers etc. 

It cant be dealer network or the lack thereof as Yamaha motorsport dealers are all over the country. 

The only thing I can think of is lack of demand of a high end, high price, high quality piece of equipment. We live in a time when most folks much rather buy a $500 machine that would service them for 4~5 years and then be replaced with a new one for the same money. Its tough to reason with them to spend 5 times more than their average snowblower cost to buy a machine that would last 5 times longer. 

Even for Canada, I guess Yamaha is fine with selling the number of machines that they do sell in Canada. My local Etobicoke, ON dealer for Yamaha snowblowers told me that they sell about five 624s a season and one or two 1028s; he also mentioned that they sell many many more times the number of Toros etc.


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## Paulie139

Very interesting. I guess when you think about it, all of Yamaha's products that I mentioned in the OP, can be used in 100% of the physical US. As for snowmobiles - you can potentially travel somewhere with them to play in the snow if you're not in an area that receives regular snowfall. Snowblowers are an exception. They're a tool first and a toy second - for most, anyway. You probably would be quite hard-pressed to find a snowblower in Miami, Dallas, Phoenix or Los Angeles with the exception of a few collectors, some relocated folks who didn't bother to get rid of their machine for some reason and of course, doomsdayers who tend to have EVERYTHING. But you WILL find them throughout 100% of Canada, guaranteed. Perhaps that, along with the fact that there are many other manufacturer's in the US, is what have kept them at bay. If Yamaha snowblowers were here, it would be very interesting to see the cost-effects between them and Honda. I'm willing to bet that we'd benefit.


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## JnC

The new HSS series Honda blowers are made/assembled here in the US, only the motors are sourced from the Honda plants in Asia (Thailand if I can recall). So the cost of producing Honda blowers is positively affected at least from Honda's point of view. The older HS models were built and imported from Japan. 

Whereas except for the smaller YS624 (which gets assembled/built in China) the rest of the Yamaha lineup is produced in Japan. 

The whole demand and supply logic doesnt make sense in this situation, Yamaha offers only three models to the whole Canada where as it offers at least half a dozen if not more in Japan. I dont have raw numbers but I am sure the demand for Yamaha snowblowers in Japan is far less than the US, not to mention Yamaha has just as many competitors, may be even more, in Japan than here in the US. 

Only a couple manufacturers can compete with Yamaha's quality, engineering, dependability etc here in the US where as in Japan that number of competitors is much higher. 



So one would think that with the network of dealers that Yamaha already has here in the US it would be a no brainer to reintroduce the snowblowers but I guess there is way more to this story than we can come up with.

The ONLY thing that makes any sense/reason as to why Yamaha bailed on the US market and is refraining from coming back is the consumer culture of not justifying paying that much money for a machine that gets used a few months of the year. The only tangible thing that most US market consumers look at is price and they cant justify the price difference.Yamaha beats pretty much all the others in the intangibles but cant beat them on the tangible of price. Sadly the few folks that CAN justify spending the money to get a quality machine to last an eternity are not enough to have the pull, at least for now, to bring Yamaha snowblowers back to the states.


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## Paulie139

Absolutely 100% agreed. Obviously, if there was money to be made, they'd be doing it. I'd love to pick the brains of the Yamaha brass to find out. It's probably one of those things (or several of those things) that make perfect sense that we just can't see from our standpoint.


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## DriverRider

Yamaha will not go out of business by declining to sell snowblowers in the U.S. market. Honda is a giant here and and have staked their claim so Yamaha does not want to ruffle any feathers. If Honda wanted to wipe Yamaha motorcycle sales off the map they could. Peaceful coexistence.

One could also ask where are all the Honda PWC's


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## orangputeh

The Japanese Mafia may be involved.


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## Paulie139

orangputeh said:


> The Japanese Mafia may be involved.


Now that's funny right there, I don't care who you are....


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## unknown1

Now that I've put my spreadsheet together I can see why they'd struggle (Yamaha).
Have you all seen it.. if not ... look at my sig and check it out

Look at Ariens... they have models that fill the entire spectrum of categories
low cost cheap but good enough
higher cost better performance
highest cost best performance
On top of that their Bang-per-Buck are the best ones

So to compete Yamaha would need to decide where they intend to compete.
lower-end?
mid-range?
higher-end?

If Yamaha tried to do it all they'd need a bunch of models and a bunch of price ranges (they either need to exist in the US market or redefine the market)

Yamaha only have 3 models available in Canada as far as I can tell
Arguably one in each category.. maybe.. However, they have other models in Japan too. That's a different market.

See the bottom of this link for their FULL range : https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.yamaha-motor.co.jp%2Fsnowthrower%2Fhistory%2F

Their prices are the highest in each category in my database so how many would they sell? Let me restate that.. their prices are the 3 highest.. period! 

To compete head-on they would need to re-design and re-tool for a whole slew of models to fill that entire market-space or maybe try to use their Japanese models.

Even then...if they don't get the prices down and make the trade-offs all the others have done... they still won't sell because of cost!

So they probably look at everything I've said and conclude..... it's too small a market... Ariens are entrenched... Honda have the market that we could rationally hope to gain (whatever that actually is(?)) ..we've got bigger fish to fry. We don't want to mess up our brand and do the China thing.

Of course there's just one flaw with this argument (maybe several!!)... why bother to even stay in Canada? If they sell one machine per 100 Toro's ... just close down and concentrate on the markets you care about... not worth the overheads.

They presumably have just enough critical mass in Canada to make it worthwhile and enough Brand-loyalty to exist at all. Without sales data this is pure speculation.

In the USA they would be new kids on the block with a huge uphill struggle. Being "new" or "different" can work for you or against you depending on your marketing skills. Starting off with super high prices won't help. If you come in with the lowest prices... that can help.

If I was on the board of directors or CEO I'd want to hear a good convincing business plan before pushing the "Go button" in the USA and I would keep my resume polished as plan B

Did you look at the history of Yamaha in the link above?
Did you spot the Toros? For all we know.. if you trace through all the holding companies... perhaps (just perhaps) Yamaha are already here.... they are just called Toro. Some of the Japanese conglomerates are huge and diverse... similarly in China I think. If you own stock in Toro and in Yamaha ...then, in some sense of the word... you are Toro and you are Yamaha simultaneously.
Not at the brand level but at the ownership level.

Here is the google translation of Yamaha history:https://translate.google.com/transl...//www.yamaha-motor.co.jp/snowthrower/history/
It shows a nebulous link to Toro

$0.02


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## unknown1

Similarly... I look at Honda in my database and ask.... how on Earth are they pulling this off?

The answer has to be related to some column I have not found yet or some non-measurable quality such as brand loyalty and very clever marketing 
Obviously some decent level of quality and support is essential too... but you can't quantify quality unless you have independent test labs and criteria for measurement and an explanation why that measurement is important.

You need sufficient quality to get people motivated with good support but just how much you need in order to win an audience is hard to define. It needs to be at least as good as Ariens I suppose... but do you need to be better? If so, how much better? A lot comes down to perception. I don't know how to put a number next to these things...yet.

One very real possibility is the fact that many people have had good experiences with Honda cars and there is just an assumption that the name Honda is good enough. No rationale specific to snowblowers whatsoever in that case.

Also notice which companies are paying the salary for a rep to sit here on this site and manage the spin by offering support and communication and giving away goodie-bags?
Precisely ONE company ... Honda! There may be lurkers out there.. who knows? But that's how you can piggy back off car loyalty and project it into snowblowers whether there is a true rationale or there isn't. If Samsung or Apple entered the market they might be able to succeed for similar reasons...how about a Google Snowblower? Would anybody buy an Equifax Snowblower?
Incidentally, how many of the Honda goodie bag recipients stop and think... wait a minute... who is actually paying for these goodie bags in the first place? The answer is.. THEY ARE!
Now THAT is one cheap and easy way to manage brand-loyalty and perception. It sounds so silly but it can be very effective for some consumers but not for others.
I wish I could measure how and why it is apparently working. There's no column on my database that does it. Maybe I just missed it.

So how does a company make profit?
Marketing 101.... convince people to pay as much as you can.. make them feel happy to pay it...try to convince them they are making a good choice and perhaps play to their ego by telling them they have made a "smart" choice..flatter them on being a well-informed consumer.. better than most...possibly hand out goodie bags...answer questions if they ask.. fix it if it breaks..answer the phone if they call and smile all the way to the bank if you got them to pay enough up-front and you sell lots of them.

I used to wonder.. why don't Ariens get smart and do likewise with a presence here on the forum? I think I finally understand. Look at the database and look for shades of green. They don't need to. According to their own website they are "The #1 selling brand of two-stage snow blowers in the world. " ...maybe they are happy enough to coexist... lots of ways to run a business. Ariens are succeeding just fine the way they are doing things as far as I can tell... so why change?

I've seen several people ask what is the value proposition that would make me buy a Honda. They may not use that exact language but the thought process is the same. I've yet to see any explanation that I can understand. Maybe I just don't have the data yet. My spreadsheet cannot detect it whatever it is... at least... not yet. If someone can define it and quantify it, I'll add a column.
$0.02


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## unknown1

One last observation in a totally different marketplace and a bit of psycho-babble.

Walk into your local drugstore.. pick up a bottle of Tylenol and examine the ingredients. Then look at the generic brand and do the same. Very often they are identical in ALL respects. Even the boxes and color schemes look the same.

But with clever marketing and advertising you can convince enough people to think Tylenol is inherently "better".... it MUST be... I saw it on TV and it costs more so it HAS to be better.
My friend down the street swears by it too... I never actually found out why she says that.. but it's good enough for me.

Maybe some people don't want to feel "cheap".... they prefer to "flaunt the Tylenol" instead of "hiding the generic brand" in case someone is looking. As you can imagine... I don't buy much Tylenol but I do buy Acetaminophen.

What can I say? Are people just easy to manipulate? Maybe they don't come at it with a purely rational check-it-and-see approach. They probably never read the ingredients anyway... even if they did they might still buy the Tylenol. The data is there, they just don't think that way. No data would ever convince a loyal Tylenol fan to buy the generic brand. They've been using it for years and they are content to pay extra for it. Ask them to explain why and they may struggle or even get annoyed that you asked. It feels too personal for some people to explain a rationale... especially if there isn't one. I'm not certain why that is but psychologists have come up with some interesting explanations.

If you ask a scientist to explain their rationale.. they'll usually say.. "good question" and then attempt to explain it. They usually separate their ego from their theories... if they don't, they are not very good scientists IMO. If you are a good scientist and your theory is proven to be wrong or inadequate by observations and data.. no big deal..you embrace that knowledge and try to come up with a better one that fits the data more closely. The good scientist comes out of that experience feeling that it was beneficial and they've learned something. The Tylenol buyer would probably still keep buying Tylenol. Psychological schemata are very resistant to change... they emphasize the data that support the underlying belief and discount or ignore any conflicting data. Sometimes with venom and ad-hominem attacks. That's not the scientific method... it's psychological schema-protection. Freud called it ego (more or less).

There is another related psychological phenomenon called "Cognitive Dissonance". When confronted with data that contradict your world-view it can and usually does feel unsettling and like you are being attacked. Common responses are "That can't be true" or "That's just nonsense". Sometimes there is a sense of overwhelming shock or panic. Many people (not all) retreat back to the familiar and buy more Tylenol. It's often easier than changing world-view. Most people are familiar with the cycle of denial-bargaining-anger-acceptance. The order is not fixed and there are often several trips round the roller-coaster before coming out of the other end. Those belief systems are very resilient. Sometimes dangerously so.

One company that has been very successful using marketing in this way is Apple. Somewhat ironically, another one is Samsung another is Microsoft. Some people switch.. but many never will. What kind of laptop or tablet or phone do you have. When was the last time you switched? You probably can relate to that example even if the previous explanations sounded like psycho-babble. The most flexible phone-buyer is usually the one buying their first phone. Unless you have a particularly bad experience with that brand it's common to stay with the familiar. $0.02

Mental Schema here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schema_(psychology)
Cognitive Dissonance here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance


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## 10953

orangputeh said:


> The Japanese Mafia may be involved.


china mafia!! Yamaha Snowblower Fan Club - Where are they made? 

Yamaha Snowblower Fan Club

sell in the usa? doubtful with their CA prices for something made in china https://www.yamaha-motor.ca/products/list.php?group=SB&catId=92


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## Freezn

As loyal Honda consumer (and a heavy user at that) I can tell you my decision making process for Honda products is deeply routed in credibility, reliability, and authenticity. The Honda vehicles I've owned over the years have been trouble free with only basic maintenance. Same thing with my Honda mower (HRB217HXA) that I purchased in 2003. As the neighbors buy new Craftsman mowers every 5-6 years due to rusted engine decks or engine problems, my Honda just keeps doing it's thing. I know others might disagree, but in my opinion, Honda engineering is in a class of it's own.


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## unknown1

Freezn said:


> As loyal Honda consumer (and a heavy user at that) I can tell you my decision making process for Honda products is deeply routed in credibility, reliability, and authenticity. The Honda vehicles I've owned over the years have been trouble free with only basic maintenance. Same thing with my Honda mower (HRB217HXA) that I purchased in 2003. As the neighbors buy new Craftsman mowers every 5-6 years due to rusted engine decks or engine problems, my Honda just keeps doing it's thing. I know others might disagree, but in my opinion, Honda engineering is in a class of it's own.


Thanks for saying that

That sounds like the point I was making... I like the cars so I'm sure I'll like the snowblowers. Is that a fair translation?
Not a feature by feature comparison... simply a loyalty
If that's a fair translation then that spreadsheet is only useful for you to compare between various Honda models
It's still useful...but you only care about the Honda rows.. yes?

Also.. do any of your neighbors have an Ariens that throws further, more tons of snow per hour for less cost?
Would that data even begin to be interesting? Just how powerful is that loyalty?

What if I could prove that the ariens was identical quality (hypothetically) to Honda
Would even THAT get you thinking? Or does that loyalty trump ALL other considerations?

Finally (hypothetically) Suppose I could prove that Ariens wins on EVERY POSSIBLE MEASURABLE METRIC INCLUDING "QUALITY" (whatever that is)
Would the loyalty still win?

Putting it bluntly... do you simply always buy Tylenol ;-)
Nothing wrong with that position... but it's fascinating for me to hear if that's the answer

And then going with the psychobabble
Does my line of questioning cause discomfort ;-) Or maybe make you flip the bit and ignore the question ;-) Or perhaps "unfriend" me on facebook ;-)

The point I was making with the previous 2 posts is.. with super-powerful loyalty, competitive analysis is pointless because that loyalty has become the overriding factor. 
There's just no way that Subaru can penetrate it. That has to be the ultimate victory that every vendor hopes for. It's cast in stone and cannot be budged. even by something that is twice as fast, half the price, three times bigger and higher quality. That loyalty refuses to believe that is possible and eliminates the Subaru. 
It's because I don't have those strong loyalties and am willing to believe that something better can turn up at any instant and again 3 days later, that I think it's fascinating.

It also helps me understand better how Honda can have market share in spite of all the green colors I see in that spreadsheet. (I'm hoping you've seen it otherwise that makes no sense)
Click on the link in my sig if you want to see what I'm referring to.


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## orangputeh

There was a Yamaha around here for $400 that I was thinking about getting so i could compare machines. Honda is king around here and for a pretty good reason.

they perform well and they will last forever if you take care of them. those Yamaha's look like tanks.


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## unknown1

I think I get it... 
I imagine a scene in Star Trek with Captain Kirk gazing fondly at a sunset. It's a beautiful planet with two Suns of course. 
Meanwhile Spock is there with his micrometer, tricorder and a spreadsheet looking confused. 
He's trying to write a software program to control a robot he's building that goes to find sunsets.
He starts trying to figure out what "beautiful" means for his prototype artificial intelligence system.
Try as hard as he can... he can't get the robot to work reliably in all cases... he simply can't figure out a number to put in the "beauty" column.
In fact.. there isn't even a column in the spreadsheet for "beauty" because he knew he couldn't define it and he's a rational guy with pointy ears.
Kirk looks at Spock, reaches for his communicator and with a sigh he says..
"Two to beam up.. let's get on our way!.. don't bother bringing the robot Spock...next time I'm bringing McCoy".
Meanwhile Spock is distracted trying to understand what "fondly" means and writing down the equations to predict the next sunset.
As they beam away you catch Spock saying.. "fascinating...these numbers don't seem to predict....". And at that moment they disappear into the ether. 
... or something a bit like that. 
The astute reader will recall that the ether hypothesis was thrown out decades ago so I've no idea where Kirk is these days.
Spock's probably somewhere struggling to define "imagine". ;-)

EDIT: Was the point too subtle? Let me state it clearly. Things like brand-loyalty cannot be measured and Spock will never be able to get a handle on it to program the robot even though he continues to try. His problem gets deeper if instead of a single intangible there are many undefinable (but important) hairy-fairy qualities that cannot be defined and therefore cannot be measured. For poor old Spock a purely objective analysis cannot quantify things like "imagination" "beauty" "fondness"
Meanwhile James T Kirk intuitively feels these things.. he doesn't try to rationalize the beauty of a sunset... he just knows (or THINKS he knows) what is and isn't beautiful

Clearly I am Spock...... Kirk is possibly Mrs.Tylenol-fan and potentially Mr. Honda-fan. Whether justified or not these latter two people have resilient belief systems and Spock's data cannot comprehend that because it cannot be measured. From their perspective, Spock's data may be uninteresting or even perceived to be threatening. They won't believe it or perhaps they won't accept that the information is useful. Kirk basically flipped the bit on Spock in disgust or simple resignation and there was a bit of implied anger and ad-hominem attack by rejecting Spock from this point forward, rejecting his robot and his spreadsheet, in other words rejecting his data and rejecting Spock as a future companion. He shot the messenger. It's an old story. He did not want to change his belief system and was annoyed by the data, it's presentation, the fact that it seemed to invalidate Kirk's passion for the sunset by not being able to measure it and therefore understand it and appreciate it.


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## d3500ram

Stuart- per chance have you ever read "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance?"


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## Paulie139

d3500ram said:


> Stuart- per chance have you ever read "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance?"


 Is it a spreadsheet...? :wink2:


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## d3500ram

LOL... almost spit coffee out !

I was only wondering because the allusion of Mr Spock attempting to describe beauty by a number reminded me of Phaedrus (in Zen) trying to quantify quality. "Subjective-ness" cannot be put down in numbers (nor a spreadsheet...J/K, LOL)


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## unknown1

d3500ram said:


> LOL... almost spit coffee out !
> 
> I was only wondering because the allusion of Mr Spock attempting to describe beauty by a number reminded me of Phaedrus (in Zen) trying to quantify quality. "Subjective-ness" cannot be put down in numbers (nor a spreadsheet...J/K, LOL)


I once spent a couple of days trying to analyze the value of artwork.. I came close but the Mona Lisa kept coming out at $2.47 plus or minus 0.00347%
I didn't bother to add the normalization column... I only had one painting anyway. ;-)


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## unknown1

d3500ram said:


> Stuart- per chance have you ever read "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance?"


Yes I think I have... wasn't it a carburetor... or did that one have EFI? ;-)


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## unknown1

So anyway Pauli139 (OP)
Did that thread answer your question and head in the direction you hoped it would ;-)
I guess we're done here huh?


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## unknown1

87 powershift said:


> china mafia!! Yamaha Snowblower Fan Club - Where are they made?
> 
> Yamaha Snowblower Fan Club
> 
> sell in the usa? doubtful with their CA prices for something made in china https://www.yamaha-motor.ca/products/list.php?group=SB&catId=92


Wow.. if that's true and can be verified that's going to smash some memes!
In fact I tried to make that point on the China-gate thread in my latest sig
No-one seemed to buy it at the time...except maybe with a dismissive "Ain't gonna happen out of China" caveat.

How can people simultaneously hold two different world-views?
a) Yamaha are possibly the highest "quality" snowblowers in North America
b) Everything coming out of China is guano

That's the cognitive dissonance thing I was rambling on about in the psycho-babble post.
Safest way to maintain you belief system is to discount the evidence... that's those resilient schemata kicking in again.
Maybe the psycho-babblers are onto something.


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## Paulie139

stuart80112 said:


> So anyway Pauli139 (OP)
> Did that thread answer your question and head in the direction you hoped it would ;-)
> I guess we're done here huh?


Well, having been a police officer for 25+ years (and still very much at it), every time one question gets answered, three more questions are spawned. But all-in-all, I'm satisfied. I would LOVE to pick the brains of Yamaha's CEO/CFO/COO to get their take on things and confirm or debunk what has been stated here but my guess is, the folks here on the forum have got a pretty good handle on things and their instincts are probably quite reliable. Could you do a spreadsheet on that, Stuart? :grin:


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## unknown1

Paulie139 said:


> Well, having been a police officer for 25+ years (and still very much at it), every time one question gets answered, three more questions are spawned. But all-in-all, I'm satisfied. I would LOVE to pick the brains of Yamaha's CEO/CFO/COO to get their take on things and confirm or debunk what has been stated here but my guess is, the folks here on the forum have got a pretty good handle on things and their instincts are probably quite reliable. Could you do a spreadsheet on that, Stuart? :grin:


Every single word I said was total guesswork... but I've got a forensic way of thinking.. I like to try to figure out whodunnit and maybe why... you probably think that way too given your profession.
BTW I hope those questions to the Honda fan were taken lightly... I was just going through the process to demonstrate how that loyalty thing can work. But I think he DID flip the bit as can happen if you buy that whole story ;-) (I can't see names on posts when typing a reply so all I could say is Honda fan.. apologies for that). I totally get that loyalty thing.. it's just not how I look at things. No right or wrong way. I apologize if it ruffled feathers. If you know who I am I've got a warped sense of fun and humor .. no offense intended...or to cut to the chase... SORRY


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## unknown1

orangputeh said:


> There was a Yamaha around here for $400 that I was thinking about getting so i could compare machines. Honda is king around here and for a pretty good reason.
> 
> they perform well and they will last forever if you take care of them. those Yamaha's look like tanks.


That would be great info to have
Don't just be loyal to Honda or Yamaha.... get one of each and actually TEST it! Nice to hear you think that way. 
Guess what .. you'll get an extra T-shirt too ;-)


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