# Ariens 28" DLX with 1150 Briggs Polar Force engine surge



## 928Honda9horse (Dec 25, 2020)

Ok All, my friend just bought a 2013 Ariens 28" DLX with the optional supposedly better than the stock AX 254cc engine, it has the Briggs and Stratton 250cc Polar Force 11.50 Torque Snow engine, it was bought from nice people in a lower altitude, 1900 feet, and he lives in a town with 3800 feet, which that town is considered High Altitude, it is a barely used machine even had the original factory fill oil in it (or put in by the dealer) so that is all changed, the minute he got it home.

It starts good, and easy, 1 pull with primer, but he first noticed that on low idle, the minimum, it surges, with 1 click prior to full choke, the surging (lean condition) goes away, even on high speed, without choke, it is on the verge of sounding lean, with 1 click of choke, it sounds way better, now I







know EPA likes to run these lean, but can double the altitude mean anything? I am sure the dealer in the seller's town sent it out with the standard jet, when does a high altitude jet become needed? thanks! Picture for attention


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

A high altitude jet would be a leaner jet. If you have a model set to run at the lower altitude, it would run richer than what you need for higher altitudes, but it wouldn't make it surge if it was a bit rich, it would smoke black out the exhaust if anything.
Briggs had problems with the carburetor on that engine and offered a replacement carb for it.
If you took it to a good dealership who knows what they are doing, they could look up your engine numbers and tell you if it should have the replacement carburetor installed on it.
At the altitude levels you listed, that is not enough to make a difference, that normally comes in play after you get above 4000 feet, then you would want to lean it out, or most likely leave the stock jetting in it because it would work better at your altitude at 3800 feet.
Around the year 2013 is when some of those Briggs motors had the carburetor problems and Briggs replaced them under warranty when they were still under it, but you could replace it with the newer one if you ordered it now, that is the new replacement unit that was improved. They aren't that expensive, but you'd have to pay for it because it is no longer covered under warranty because of its age.
The problem you are having with it now from what you described is a clogged slow jet that can be fixed easily by yourself and you wouldn't have to replace the carburetor.


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## 928Honda9horse (Dec 25, 2020)

ST1100A said:


> A high altitude jet would be a leaner jet. If you have a model set to run at the lower altitude, it would run richer than what you need for higher altitudes, but it wouldn't make it surge if it was a bit rich, it would smoke black out the exhaust if anything.
> Briggs had problems with the carburetor on that engine and offered a replacement carb for it.
> If you took it to a good dealership who knows what they are doing, they could look up your engine numbers and tell you if it should have the replacement carburetor installed on it.
> At the altitude levels you listed, that is not enough to make a difference, that normally comes in play after you get above 4000 feet, then you would want to lean it out, or most likely leave the stock jetting in it because it would work better at your altitude at 3800 feet.
> ...


ahh great, so if the carb is not faulty and just dirty, then have it all cleaned, put in a carb kit, or just clean the jets and pilots? and what happens if he just runs 3/4 choke on the slow circuit when idling slow, and run 1/4 notch choke on high run speed to keep it running fine under load, as long as it is not sounding lean with surging, is it safe to run until spring, when he and I can tear into it?


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## 928Honda9horse (Dec 25, 2020)

ST1100A said:


> A high altitude jet would be a leaner jet. If you have a model set to run at the lower altitude, it would run richer than what you need for higher altitudes, but it wouldn't make it surge if it was a bit rich, it would smoke black out the exhaust if anything.
> Briggs had problems with the carburetor on that engine and offered a replacement carb for it.
> If you took it to a good dealership who knows what they are doing, they could look up your engine numbers and tell you if it should have the replacement carburetor installed on it.
> At the altitude levels you listed, that is not enough to make a difference, that normally comes in play after you get above 4000 feet, then you would want to lean it out, or most likely leave the stock jetting in it because it would work better at your altitude at 3800 feet.
> ...


this engine has a manufacture date of October 2012, and was sold as a 2013 model year machine (maybe a carry over)


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## 928Honda9horse (Dec 25, 2020)

ST1100A said:


> A high altitude jet would be a leaner jet. If you have a model set to run at the lower altitude, it would run richer than what you need for higher altitudes, but it wouldn't make it surge if it was a bit rich, it would smoke black out the exhaust if anything.
> Briggs had problems with the carburetor on that engine and offered a replacement carb for it.
> If you took it to a good dealership who knows what they are doing, they could look up your engine numbers and tell you if it should have the replacement carburetor installed on it.
> At the altitude levels you listed, that is not enough to make a difference, that normally comes in play after you get above 4000 feet, then you would want to lean it out, or most likely leave the stock jetting in it because it would work better at your altitude at 3800 feet.
> ...


you must be talking about this carb:






"Nikki" carb


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

Just have it cleaned, they are very simple to do. 
You can remove the slow jet usually by taking off the idle speed screw and remove the jet. That should be mounted externally so no need to remove the carb and take the fuel bowl off. It should be a little black plastic jet that presses in from the top, held in place by the idle speed screw if that's the carburetor I'm thinking of.
The older carbs had the slow and main jets drilled into the bolt that held the fuel bowl on the carb that unbolted from the bottom and with them the carb didn't have to come off.
Yours should be mounted on the top side of the carb. There is a little black holder that comes off, then you pry up on the jet and remove it, check the little 'O'-ring on it, the actual jet hole is in the bottom of it, the larger hole in the side is for air and fuel mixture to pass through on its way to the metering screw before it gets in the carb venturi.
You want to make sure the little hole in the bottom is clear by spraying some carb cleaner through it, that usually takes care of the problem, sometimes you have to poke a thin wire through it to clear it if it's too clogged.


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

Ok, if you have the Nikki style carb, you should just replace it, just saw you are in Canada.
I just repaired one on that engine down here in the USA, it was a Briggs/Walbro not the Nikki.
Those Nikki carbs are not that good.
But your video might help you if that's what you have.


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## 928Honda9horse (Dec 25, 2020)

ST1100A said:


> Just have it cleaned, they are very simple to do.
> You can remove the slow jet usually by taking off the idle speed screw and remove the jet. That should be mounted externally so no need to remove the carb and take the fuel bowl off. It should be a little black plastic jet that presses in from the top, held in place by the idle speed screw if that's the carburetor I'm thinking of.
> The older carbs had the slow and main jets drilled into the bolt that held the fuel bowl on the carb that unbolted from the bottom and with them the carb didn't have to come off.
> Yours should be mounted on the top side of the carb. There is a little black holder that comes off, then you pry up on the jet and remove it, check the little 'O'-ring on it, the actual jet hole is in the bottom of it, the larger hole in the side is for air and fuel mixture to pass through on its way to the metering screw before it gets in the carb venturi.
> You want to make sure the little hole in the bottom is clear by spraying some carb cleaner through it, that usually takes care of the problem, sometimes you have to poke a thin wire through it to clear it if it's too clogged.


that would be good news if he has the Walbro setup, we will need to check what he has.


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## 928Honda9horse (Dec 25, 2020)

ST1100A said:


> Ok, if you have the Nikki style carb, you should just replace it, just saw you are in Canada.
> I just repaired one on that engine down here in the USA, it was a Briggs/Walbro not the Nikki.
> Those Nikki carbs are not that good.
> But your video might help you if that's what you have.


I hope he does not have a Nikki one I guess getting the Engine # to the dealer tomorrow will tell ALL.


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

928Honda9horse said:


> this engine has a manufacture date of October 2012, and was sold as a 2013 model year machine (maybe a carry over)


That is in the timeframe of the problems that Briggs addressed with the new carburetor.


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

Hope it's not the Nikki, if its the Briggs /Walbro they are easy to fix. 
Good luck with it and let us know how you make out with it.


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## 928Honda9horse (Dec 25, 2020)

ST1100A said:


> Hope it's not the Nikki, if its the Briggs /Walbro they are easy to fix.
> Good luck with it and let us know how you make out with it.


ok thanks!


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## CO Snow (Dec 8, 2011)

I have the same model with the same engine and it runs fine at 6700’ elevation with no modifications.


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

CO Snow said:


> I have the same model with the same engine and it runs fine at 6700’ elevation with no modifications.


It should run good at your altitude. They jet them to run leaner at a much lower altitude, like seal level to 3000 feet, but you have to lean them out as you go higher in altitude, so the way they are set at from the factory as 'lean' at lower altitudes usually works out pretty well for altitudes around 6000 feet with no modifications.


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## 928Honda9horse (Dec 25, 2020)

Briggs and Stratton says this on another forum:

"



B
Briggs Engine

posted 9 years ago
To set this all straight the carburetor that is on your engine does not have any type of adjustment on it, it has a fixed main jet with no adjustment screws. If you engine is still surging slightly when idling that will be normal. The only thing you will want to worry about is if it surging under load. If it is surging while under load there is an issue at hand. I would check like the said the intake gaskets. The engine that you have since it is a snow engine will not have an air filter on it, it may however have a screen over the throat of the carburetor. The engines are not set lean from the factory, this type of a running condition could cause serious damage to the inside of the engine. I hope that this was able to assist you with the questions that you have.
If you have any further questions call our engine Answer Center at 800-444-7774, M-F 8-5PM CST."

this is the thread: page 2: 









Snowblower engine needs choke to run smoothly


In this case, a full right turn is a closed choke, up and down is half choke, and all the way to the left is the open-choke, running position. Very unusual. At first, fro...




www.homeownershub.com





Now in all fairness, with NO choke and high idle, just a few pops here and there, no surging and will take a video of it warmed up and high idle, no issues under load, I thought I would add this.


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## 928Honda9horse (Dec 25, 2020)

928Honda9horse said:


> Briggs and Stratton says this on another forum:
> 
> "
> 
> ...


will need to let you all hear this engine at high idle


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## 928Honda9horse (Dec 25, 2020)

CO Snow said:


> I have the same model with the same engine and it runs fine at 6700’ elevation with no modifications.


low idle has been just fine? Cannot wait to let you guys hear it run, at least the high idle, as it seems to be not symptomatic, is it usual for there to be a slight pop here and there as it is in high idle? His old Tecumseh snow King did not have pops or anything, maybe he should have kept that old dinosaur which was adjustable, 36 years old.


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

When the engine is running high idle or full throttle unloaded, it is only taking fuel from the low speed idle circuit because the throttle plate is barely open. Once it is under a 'load' and the engine speed slows down, the governor takes over and opens the throttle plate further, then it takes fuel from the main circuit where it gets a lot more fuel.
The surging is caused by not enough fuel to keep the engine running so it slows down and the governor opens the throttle to keep it running, then the speed increases and the governor closes the throttle plate to slow it back to normal settings, and the process keeps repeating itself, causing the surging issues.
We see it happen all the time, its common for the slow jet to clog up easier than the main jet, and once its cleaned, the idle and full unloaded speed smooth-ens out and it stops the surging problems.
Then you don't need to run it with the choke on partially to smooth it out.


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## 928Honda9horse (Dec 25, 2020)

ST1100A said:


> When the engine is running high idle or full throttle unloaded, it is only taking fuel from the low speed idle circuit because the throttle plate is barely open. Once it is under a 'load' and the engine speed slows down, the governor takes over and opens the throttle plate further, then it takes fuel from the main circuit where it gets a lot more fuel.
> The surging is caused by not enough fuel to keep the engine running so it slows down and the governor opens the throttle to keep it running, then the speed increases and the governor closes the throttle plate to slow it back to normal settings, and the process keeps repeating itself, causing the surging issues.
> We see it happen all the time, its common for the slow jet to clog up easier than the main jet, and once its cleaned, the idle and full unloaded speed smooth-ens out and it stops the surging problems.
> Then you don't need to run it with the choke on partially to smooth it out.


ahh I see, thanks for explaining this clearly, and you did it in such a way, a lay person get's it.

I will go over tomorrow sometime when it warms up, and we will get a turkey baster or something to drain the entire tank of fuel and run that carb dry while I go to see what carb and engine # he has, and refill with fresh, because all we have done so far is the oil change, and a dose of seafoam, plus a 1/4 tank top up of fresh ethanol free, but after reading this interestingly enough, fuel does make a difference in these EPA engines:









Popping sound


Hello to all. I have a deluxe 28 (921035) with the polar force 250cc. Got it new Dec.2013. Never had a problem till this year. Starts right up but get shuddering and popping sound. Did tune up and ran great. Yesterday clearing snow runs rough on idle, sputters and pops on full throttle. Under...




www.snowblowerforum.com






He has popping sounds on high idle, no load. and 1 notch of choke makes those popping sounds go away, and the popping is another indicator of a lean condition?


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

928Honda9horse said:


> low idle has been just fine? Cannot wait to let you guys hear it run, at least the high idle, as it seems to be not symptomatic, is it usual for there to be a slight pop here and there as it is in high idle? His old Tecumseh snow King did not have pops or anything, maybe he should have kept that old dinosaur which was adjustable, 36 years old.


Those old dinosaurs were a lot better than these new engines. The adjustable ones were great for tuning and easy to make run good again with the simple turn of a screw.


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

928Honda9horse said:


> ahh I see, thanks for explaining this clearly, and you did it in such a way, a lay person get's it.
> 
> I will go over tomorrow sometime when it warms up, and we will get a turkey baster or something to drain the entire tank of fuel and run that carb dry while I go to see what carb and engine # he has, and refill with fresh, because all we have done so far is the oil change, and a dose of seafoam, plus a 1/4 tank top up of fresh ethanol free, but after reading this interestingly enough, fuel does make a difference in these EPA engines:
> 
> ...


Yes the popping sound is a sign of a 'lean' condition.
Your 'Sea-Foam' also contains a lot of alcohol that is used as a solvent. Your E10 gas usually has enough alcohol in it that works as a solvent to help clean fuel systems a bit, although I am not a fan of Ethanol gasoline.


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

Just use regular 87 octane fuel , not premium high octane, they are designed without a lot of timing advance to run on low faster burning octane fuel that makes the engine easier to start. They can be harder to start with high octane fuel and have less power than low octane gas.


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## 928Honda9horse (Dec 25, 2020)

ST1100A said:


> Those old dinosaurs were a lot better than these new engines. The adjustable ones were great for tuning and easy to make run good again with the simple turn of a screw.


well then he made a huge mistake because that 1980's machine he sold for what he thought was good money was Like new, considerably lower hour than one might think for a 30 plus year old machine, and ran strong! it is just that the 26" bucket was a bit small for his liking and he hear so many good things about Ariens he wanted one, and with the money he got for the old one, and shipping this one in from another city, he HAS $115 left in his pocket and a machine with obvious less hours due to age, which way would you have gone, kept the old, or try the Ariens 28" DLX?


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## 928Honda9horse (Dec 25, 2020)

ST1100A said:


> Yes the popping sound is a sign of a 'lean' condition.
> Your 'Sea-Foam' also contains a lot of alcohol that is used as a solvent. Your E10 gas usually has enough alcohol in it that works as a solvent to help clean fuel systems a bit, although I am not a fan of Ethanol gasoline.


ahh got you!


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

928Honda9horse said:


> well then he made a huge mistake because that 1980's machine he sold for what he thought was good money was Like new, considerably lower hour than one might think for a 30 plus year old machine, and ran strong! it is just that the 26" bucket was a bit small for his liking and he hear so many good things about Ariens he wanted one, and with the money he got for the old one, and shipping this one in from another city, he HAS $115 left in his pocket and a machine with obvious less hours due to age, which way would you have gone, kept the old, or try the Ariens 28" DLX?


If it was me, I would have kept the old dinosaur, they were built a lot better than the new machines.


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## 928Honda9horse (Dec 25, 2020)

ST1100A said:


> Just use regular 87 octane fuel , not premium high octane, they are designed without a lot of timing advance to run on low faster burning octane fuel that makes the engine easier to start. They can be harder to start with high octane fuel and have less power than low octane gas.


I get it, however the only choice for NO ethanol fuel is 91 supreme here in Canada


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

928Honda9horse said:


> I get it, however the only choice for NO ethanol fuel is 91 supreme here in Canada


Same here around me, so we just use the 87 octane E10 and it works good for us as we maintain our equipment and prepare them for it with good additives like stabilizers.


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## 928Honda9horse (Dec 25, 2020)

ST1100A said:


> Same here around me, so we just use the 87 octane E10 and it works good for us as we maintain our equipment and prepare them for it with good additives like stabilizers.


another reason to BUY NEW, you know how they are maintained. I am wondering for now, should he just wait for snow, burn off that whole tank with 1 click of choke and then see how it goes with fresh non ethanol, plus still see if he has a Nikki carb, other than that, on fast idle with 1 click or on load it really runs correctly with the fuel that is in it.


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## 928Honda9horse (Dec 25, 2020)

928Honda9horse said:


> another reason to BUY NEW, you know how they are maintained. I am wondering for now, should he just wait for snow, burn off that whole tank with 1 click of choke and then see how it goes with fresh non ethanol, plus still see if he has a Nikki carb, other than that, on fast idle with 1 click or on load it really runs correctly with the fuel that is in it.


because stale fuel will be a lean condition still correct?


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

928Honda9horse said:


> because stale fuel will be a lean condition still correct?


Stale fuel can do a lot of different things, sometimes it will act as if it is running rich and smoke, sometimes the opposite like it's lean, it can do a lot of different things depending on how stale it is.
If it burns, it will usually burn slower, sometimes like a very high octane fuel and be hard to start.


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## 928Honda9horse (Dec 25, 2020)

ST1100A said:


> Stale fuel can do a lot of different things, sometimes it will act as if it is running rich and smoke, sometimes the opposite like it's lean, it can do a lot of different things depending on how stale it is.
> If it burns, it will usually burn slower, sometimes like a very high octane fuel and be hard to start.


ahh, well this is clear the fuel in this tank, that came with it off the transport truck just yesterday, yes he bought it sight seen by friends that are NOT mechanics in that city!
1. easy to start, 1 pull with 2 prime bulb pumps
2. definitely no black or any smoke unless full choke after start, so no rich condition symptom
maybe it is not stale, because it does not have the stale fuel odor and varnishy type smell


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## 928Honda9horse (Dec 25, 2020)

ST1100A said:


> If it was me, I would have kept the old dinosaur, they were built a lot better than the new machines.


I guess we all cannot win them all, the easy steer, 14" auger, and just overall features of this Ariens is welcome, as I tried his old one, and they are night and day for function. What is your thought on say Honda Japan HS series, VS HSS of today tracked models, although I am in the Ariens forum, I did a next to new HS928 track and like it except the non easy turn trigger for the tracks like the new HSS series.


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

Its probably ok fuel, sounds like it just needs a little cleaning of the slow jet and it should run smoother after that. That is a common problem with a slow jet passageway getting blocked a bit.


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

928Honda9horse said:


> I guess we all cannot win them all, the easy steer, 14" auger, and just overall features of this Ariens is welcome, as I tried his old one, and they are night and day for function. What is your thought on say Honda Japan HS series, VS HSS of today tracked models, although I am in the Ariens forum, I did a next to new HS928 track and like it except the non easy turn trigger for the tracks like the new HSS series.


I run the older HS series with the better built transmissions and none of the problems the newer HSS models have had. Most of mine are around 28 years old and are running bullet-proof good with no problems at all.
I have seen some problems with the Steering in the new Hydro-Gear built transmissions of the HSS models, but those transmissions are very inexpensive to replace, unlike the older Honda built HS model transmissions, but I never had an old one fail yet.


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## 928Honda9horse (Dec 25, 2020)

ST1100A said:


> Its probably ok fuel, sounds like it just needs a little cleaning of the slow jet and it should run smoother after that. That is a common problem with a slow jet passageway getting blocked a bit.


ahh ok, it came from a zone where snow has been lean for the past season so it makes sense


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## 928Honda9horse (Dec 25, 2020)

ST1100A said:


> I run the older HS series with the better built transmissions and none of the problems the newer HSS models have had. Most of mine are around 28 years old and are running bullet-proof good with no problems at all.
> I have seen some problems with the Steering in the new Hydro-Gear built transmissions of the HSS models, but those transmissions are very inexpensive to replace, unlike the older Honda built HS model transmissions, but I never had an old one fail yet.


ok, so maybe he should re-sell this one as those 828 and 928's are out there as I found, he will get his money back in a heartbeat for this one!


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

Those older 828's were a well built machine that you get your money's worth out of, a lot of people hang on to them because they keep on running with very little problems.
The steerable models are easier to turn but they have more problems with more things to break on them. We use our machines commercially and haven't had any problems with them, they are worth their weight in gold.


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## 928Honda9horse (Dec 25, 2020)

ST1100A said:


> Those older 828's were a well built machine that you get your money's worth out of, a lot of people hang on to them because they keep on running with very little problems.
> The steerable models are easier to turn but they have more problems with more things to break on them. We use our machines commercially and haven't had any problems with them, they are worth their weight in gold.


Nice and the 2008-2010 HS-928'S?


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

928Honda9horse said:


> Nice and the 2008-2010 HS-928'S?


They seem to be ok. Most of the troubles were with the newer HSS models


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## 928Honda9horse (Dec 25, 2020)




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## 928Honda9horse (Dec 25, 2020)




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## 928Honda9horse (Dec 25, 2020)




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