# 2005 Toro 826 LXE won't start



## Paul Ebert (Feb 22, 2015)

I have an '05 Toro 826 Powermax LXE. As I've posted elsewhere, it has never started well for me. It seems that when it's relatively warm (say, above 20 degrees F), it usually starts OK, but below that it fails to start quite often.

I'm tired of taking it in to get it "fixed" only to have the same thing happen the next season (or time I need it). So I'm trying to learn to fix it myself.

This morning I replaced the carburetor with a new Oregon aftermarket carb. I was able to get it going, but after letting it run for a few minutes I tried cutting the throttle and it died. I haven't been able to get it going again.

I've tried emptying the carburetor bowl to eliminate flooding and spraying in some starter fluid. I then took out the spark plug (which was replaced last week). I noticed that it was a bit wet. I'm not seeing a spark when I pull the cord, but I'm not sure I'm doing it correctly.

Any advice on how to proceed with fixing this thing would be greatly appreciated.


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## classiccat (Mar 1, 2014)

Hi Paul, Is that a Tecumseh HMSK80? Are you using fresh fuel? Lastly, how does it run?


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

To check for a spark, connect the plug wire to the plug, and you must also ground the outside of the plug against bare metal of the engine. 

If the shrouds on the engine allow it, I usually rest the outside of the plug against the aluminum cylinder head, such as against the fins. Rotate the plug so you can see the gap, and pull the cord quickly. You are looking for a bright blue spark.


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## classiccat (Mar 1, 2014)

The best / safest way to test spark is with an adjustable gap tester...looking for a thick/blue pop when set at the "small engine" gap. Keep the plug in the block to avoid creating a combustable fuel cloud around your face. I also make sure the fuel is off and the carb bowl is dry.


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## Paul Ebert (Feb 22, 2015)

classiccat said:


> Hi Paul, Is that a Tecumseh HMSK80? Are you using fresh fuel? Lastly, how does it run?


The engine is identified as an LH318SA. Apparently, this was called an HMSK90 prior to 2004.

I filled the tank with regular unleaded (with ethanol) that was fresh from the gas station two weeks ago.

When it runs, it runs pretty well, though I need to keep the choke partially closed and the throttle on high to keep it running even after it's been running a while.


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## Paul Ebert (Feb 22, 2015)

RedOctobyr said:


> To check for a spark, connect the plug wire to the plug, and you must also ground the outside of the plug against bare metal of the engine.
> 
> If the shrouds on the engine allow it, I usually rest the outside of the plug against the aluminum cylinder head, such as against the fins. Rotate the plug so you can see the gap, and pull the cord quickly. You are looking for a bright blue spark.


By outside of the plug, do you mean like the threads?

Unfortunately, the plug wire and shrouds do not let it be placed anywhere near anything that isn't either painted or very rusty.


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## Paul Ebert (Feb 22, 2015)

classiccat said:


> The best / safest way to test spark is with an adjustable gap tester...looking for a thick/blue pop when set at the "small engine" gap. Keep the plug in the block to avoid creating a combustable fuel cloud around your face. I also make sure the fuel is off and the carb bowl is dry.


I don't have one of those, but it looks to be very useful. I'll pick one up and give it a try.


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## classiccat (Mar 1, 2014)

Paul Ebert said:


> The engine is identified as an LH318SA. Apparently, this was called an HMSK90 prior to 2004.
> 
> I filled the tank with regular unleaded (with ethanol) that was fresh from the gas station two weeks ago.
> 
> When it runs, it runs pretty well, though I need to keep the choke partially closed and the throttle on high to keep it running even after it's been running a while.


So we have fresh fuel but by your description, you have a lean condition. The easy things to check are for fuel restriction...one of the easiest checks is to see if the problem goes away when you loosen the fuel cap; the cap-vent may be restricted. 

Is it an emission / non-adjustable carb...if so, replacement for a snow-king / winter engine?


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

Paul Ebert said:


> By outside of the plug, do you mean like the threads?
> 
> Unfortunately, the plug wire and shrouds do not let it be placed anywhere near anything that isn't either painted or very rusty.


Yes, the threads, or the little arm of the electrode. 

I have tried using an alligator clip wire, from a cooling fin, to the plug, in a pinch. 

The adjustable gap checkers, sound cool, I was not aware of those, thanks classiccat. I have a cheap Harbor Freight tester, it lights up when there is a spark. But it's pretty much on or off; the adjustable ones could give you a relative sense of the ignition's power, based on how big a gap it could cross. 

90º Inline Ignition Spark Checker


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## Paul Ebert (Feb 22, 2015)

I loosened the gas cap and was able to start it, so that might be at least part of the problem. That would sure be an easy fix.

I let it run a while and I was able to reduce the throttle some, but the more I did the more it surged. The carb does not have the adjustment screw on the bottom (neither the original or the aftermarket replacement). I'm pretty sure the original carb did not surge so badly, but then I was not able to keep it running on the original carb unless it was full throttle.


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## classiccat (Mar 1, 2014)

Paul Ebert said:


> I loosened the gas cap and was able to start it, so that might be at least part of the problem. That would sure be an easy fix.
> 
> I let it run a while and I was able to reduce the throttle some, but the more I did the more it surged. The carb does not have the adjustment screw on the bottom (neither the original or the aftermarket replacement). I'm pretty sure the original carb did not surge so badly, but then I was not able to keep it running on the original carb unless it was full throttle.


so with the cap removed, it runs without surging at high-speed / no-load / no-choke?

if it wasn't a brand-spankin'-new carb, I'd say pull the idle jet & clean it out. I wonder if you have a carb jetted for summer.  Make sure the bolts between the connecting the intake pipe to block & intake pipe to carb are tight...and if the gasket(s) were tore-up, they should be replaced. 

And when you added the new fuel to the tank, it was dry? You wouldn't believe the water that will collect at the bottom of a tank if fuel is stored in it during the off-season...even with stabil.


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## Paul Ebert (Feb 22, 2015)

classiccat said:


> so with the cap removed, it runs without surging at high-speed / no-load / no-choke?


Yes.



classiccat said:


> if it wasn't a brand-spankin'-new carb, I'd say pull the idle jet & clean it out. I wonder if you have a carb jetted for summer.  Make sure the bolts between the connecting the intake pipe to block & intake pipe to carb are tight...and if the gasket(s) were tore-up, they should be replaced.


Brand new gasket between the intake pipe and the carb. I didn't do anything with the intake pipe / block interface. I'll check all the connections and confirm that I seated the gasket properly. I'll also check the gasket for the float bowl.



classiccat said:


> And when you added the new fuel to the tank, it was dry? You wouldn't believe the water that will collect at the bottom of a tank if fuel is stored in it during the off-season...even with stabil.


I very well could have some water somewhere (though I'm pretty sure there's none in the float bowl). If that is the case, what can I do about it?


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## detdrbuzzard (Jan 20, 2012)

hi paul hope things are looking up with your toro
you could drop the bowl and drain the fuel out of it


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## classiccat (Mar 1, 2014)

Paul Ebert said:


> I very well could have some water somewhere (though I'm pretty sure there's none in the float bowl). If that is the case, what can I do about it?


If you have water in your tank, drain the tank into a clean container and inspect it; it will look like a lava lamp. It sinks right to the bottom...conveniently located to mess-up your fuel system.  if there isnt any water in it, put it back into the tank. 

To rule-out the idle-jet size, I was wondering if the idle jets between your old and new carb are interchangeable. If so, remove the old one, clean it out really well and see if it cures your idle hunting/surging. For the heck of it, check the new one as well; maybe it sucked-up something from the bottom of the tank if you're not using a fuel filter.


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## Paul Ebert (Feb 22, 2015)

At this point, it appears to start well enough and I was able to get the auger control working, so a productive weekend! I've got a new gas cap and a few other parts on order, but in the mean time I should be able to handle whatever snow comes my way.

One of the parts I ordered was a main jet. I noticed that the number for just the jet in the parts catalog was different than the number on the one that came with the aftermarket carb (167 vs 184), so I thought I'd see if they are, in fact, different and if that makes any difference with the surging. I will also try all of the suggestions.

I also saw a youtube where the guy slightly increased the diameter of the hole down the main jet using a small (#58) drill bit to correct surging. Since I will have 3 main jets, I might try that with one of them at some point.

I really appreciate the help and I'll report back as I learn more about the surging issue.


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## classiccat (Mar 1, 2014)

Paul Ebert said:


> At this point, it appears to start well enough and I was able to get the auger control working, so a productive weekend! I've got a new gas cap and a few other parts on order, but in the mean time I should be able to handle whatever snow comes my way.
> 
> One of the parts I ordered was a main jet. I noticed that the number for just the jet in the parts catalog was different than the number on the one that came with the aftermarket carb (167 vs 184), so I thought I'd see if they are, in fact, different and if that makes any difference with the surging. I will also try all of the suggestions.
> 
> ...


It sounds like she's comin' together there for ya Paul! 

Don't forget that idle jet (side of carb); I recall the guy that rejetted his main was addressing a high-speed / no-load idle surge (_he put the float bowl on backwards as well so he wasn't getting enough float-drop _  ).


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## Paul Ebert (Feb 22, 2015)

I will definitely investigate the idle jet, probably next weekend depending on the weather.

Could you please describe how the float is supposed to work? I don't really understand what it's supposed to accomplish.

Oh, and another question. If I find I have water in my gas, what do I do about it? Is there a way to separate the water out and use the gas? Is there a way to safely dispose of it?


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## CarlB (Jan 2, 2011)

gas and water will separate all on its own. The water will be on the bottom and the gas on the top.


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## classiccat (Mar 1, 2014)

Paul Ebert said:


> I will definitely investigate the idle jet, probably next weekend depending on the weather.
> 
> Could you please describe how the float is supposed to work? I don't really understand what it's supposed to accomplish.
> 
> Oh, and another question. If I find I have water in my gas, what do I do about it? Is there a way to separate the water out and use the gas? Is there a way to safely dispose of it?


The float is part of the metering mechanism that controls the amount of fuel entering the carb bowl...alot like the old toilets.  When the fuel-level is low in the carb bowl, the float drops unseating the needle that's connected to the float.

I'm never dealing with alot of contaminated fuel (a few oz)..I'm a bit of a spaz when it comes to maintaining fresh fuel for my small engines. What I'll usually do is empty it into a clean container, allow the water to settle in the bottom, then pour it back into my fresh supply to dilute it; stopping before the water (and crud that it collects) dumps in. Then wipe-up the residuals with a rag; keep the rag in the shed allowing the fuel residues to evaporate. 

When my small-engine fuel supply (contains 1% seafoam) is about a month old, it goes into my vehicles.


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## Paul Ebert (Feb 22, 2015)

It wouldn't start again this morning, even with the gas cap off. So, I think I'm back to the drawing board. Fortunately, there was only 2 or so inches of new snow, but more is on the way today along with the potential for a quarter inch of ice.

The only thing that makes sense to me, at this point, is water freezing somewhere. I've moved it out of my shed and back into my sun room to warm it up a bit and I'll see what happens then. Perhaps over the weekend I can check for water in the tank.

I think it's time for me to become a fuel spaz as well.


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