# Oh Oh, A View Into the Future?



## bbwb (Oct 25, 2018)

Well, during my snow blowing this morning, I see that my Ariens ProHydro 28 with EFI is sending me an error code.
It is flashing a Code 28 which is supposed to be a high voltage problem. When I get some time, I am going to check the voltages of the stator and the battery...according to the repair manual, it is either a new stator, or a new ECU. Blower has 8 hours of run time since purchase this October.
Man, I hope purchasing the EFI engine will not haunt me for the rest of the blowers life. I am thinking I will be purchasing the extended warranty.


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

Ugh, good luck! With some of the EFI reports this year, I think the 5 year warranty for $99 sounds like a good investment, if you can still get it. A single component replacement (ECU, fuel pump, etc) could easily be more than that. And it would get you coverage while they figure out kinks hiding in the system.


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## uberT (Dec 29, 2013)

BB, that's very discouraging. That kind of stuff is SO annoying on a brand new piece of equipment...


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## cranman (Jan 23, 2016)

The diagnostic tool for that is $1700....not a do it yourself thing.....give me a carburetor everytime.


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## Dannoman (Jan 16, 2018)

That's a drag. Being dependent on a specialized shop isn't a good feeling.


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## russ01915 (Dec 18, 2013)

cranman said:


> The diagnostic tool for that is $1700....not a do it yourself thing.....give me a carburetor everytime.


What kind of tool is it for $1,700? That's almost more than the machine is worth.


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## rslifkin (Mar 5, 2018)

I feel like the EFI setup could have been done much better within the bounds of available tech. Something like a simple ECU like a Megasquirt, put a standard 12v battery setup on it like a car, etc. It seems like in an attempt to simplify the setup for a snowblower they've deviated a little too far from commonly used, easily maintainable EFI stuff that's out there. It's not like EFI is new tech at this point...


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

He said code 28, high voltage.


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## ColdinMontana (Nov 18, 2018)

That stinks. I seriously considered EFI when I bought my Pro 32, but got cold feet at the end. Figured I'd stick with what is tested and proven.

I never buy extended warranties, on anything. But in this case I would seriously consider it if you can still get it.


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## Lottstodo (Feb 16, 2018)

NO WAY!! Sorry to hear that on your new machine.. 
Been through that with cars and all the non serviceable cant fix items/parts, then needing specialized tools or equipment. It means that it becomes simply a R&R game. Remove and Replace.
The worst part is that the electronics is probably the cheapest part on the blower to manufacture and yet these parts will be sold just like in the automotive world for over 500% profit.
Sounds like the old non EFI blowers just appreciated in value by 25%!!!


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## bbwb (Oct 25, 2018)

Yup, it sure stinks...we are supposed to get 8-10" tonight/tomorrow. I think I will just run it and if it craps the bed, then I will borrow the neighbors. This weekend, I will check out the voltages per the service manual.
As I have mentioned in other posts, Ariens seem to engineer something to 90% and leave the last 10% to luck.
I realize that everything can have a problem, but man to be caught up in this back and forth of moving the blower to the dealer will really bite. Much like an ambulance, you only use it when you need it, but when you do, it has to work.
I will keep you all up to date as this moves forward.
Yes, the extended warranty for $100 buck is looking more and more like a bargain.


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## WVguy (Nov 24, 2018)

bbwb said:


> I will keep you all up to date as this moves forward.


Please do. The EFI sounds very good when it works but if that's what going to happen often I'll stick with carburetors.


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## Cold1 (Dec 20, 2017)

cranman said:


> give me a carburetor everytime.


Agreed. Of course EFI has advantages, but until the bugs get worked out and it's proven to be reliable, I'll stick with carbs. Judging from this and other threads here recently, it seems Ariens still has some work to do on their EFI system.


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## toms (Nov 17, 2017)

As far as the $99 extended Ariens warranty goes. If you read the fine print it covers the blower only. The engine is covered by its own LCT warranty. I dont know where the engine electronics will fall.


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## trellis (Mar 14, 2018)

Here’s the warranty link. It does extend the original manufacturers warranty on the engine by 2 years. There are plenty of exceptions but I don’t see anything that would exclude the EFI system. 

But it is definitely worth a call, or better... an email so that you have the answer in writing.

https://apache.ariens.com/images/AriensExtendedWarranty1017.pdf

Btw... there were so many exceptions that I opted to pass, but I have a carb setup. Hopefully I won’t regret my decision.


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## russ01915 (Dec 18, 2013)

[quote Btw... *there were so many exceptions* that I opted to pass, but I have a carb setup. Hopefully I won’t regret my decision.[/quote]

Could you please explain. I looked over the brochure and found this:

Exclusions – Items Not Covered by This Warranty
• Parts that are not genuine Ariens service parts are not covered by this warranty and may void the warranty.
• Damages resulting from the installation or use of any part, accessory, or attachment which is not approved by the Ariens
Company for use with product(s) identified herein are not covered by this warranty.
• The Ariens Extended Warranty program does not include maintenance.
• Transportation of equipment to and from the servicing dealer are not covered by this extended warranty program.
• Any additional cost for services not covered by the agreement.
• Incidental, consequential or secondary damages or delay in rendering service under this agreement, or loss of use during
the period that the covered product is at an authorized service center or otherwise awaiting parts.
• Breakdowns that are not reported within the terms of this agreement.
• The following maintenance, service and replacement items are not covered by this warranty unless they are noted in the
Limitations section above: lubricants, spark plugs, oil, skid shoes, scraper blades, shear bolts, headlights, light bulbs, and
single-stage impellers.
• Any misuse, alteration, improper assembly, improper adjustment, neglect, or accident which requires repair is not covered
by this warranty.
• Use of gasoline blends exceeding 10% ethanol voids any and all warranties.
• Products are designed to the specifications in the area that the product was originally distributed. Different areas may
have significantly different legal and design requirements. This warranty is limited to the requirements in the area in which
the unit was originally distributed. Ariens Company does not warrant this product to the requirements of any other area.
Warranty service is limited to service within the area originally distributed.
• Normal Wear: This warranty does not cover repair when normal use has exhausted the useful life of a part.


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## micah68kj (Oct 8, 2011)

My good old carbureted blowers will last me my lifetime and that makes me feel pretty happy.:smile2:


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## russ01915 (Dec 18, 2013)

I also have carbed blowers. Very simple and proven.


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## trellis (Mar 14, 2018)

> Btw... there were so many exceptions that I opted to pass, but I have a carb setup. Hopefully I won’t regret my decision.
> ------------
> Could you please explain.


I really don't have the experience that most have around here - so take my comments lightly  But it seems that based on the list that you found from the warranty and the following exceptions I started to wonder what would break and within the 3 year warranty most manufacturers defects would be found. The gear box is covered under the original warranty for 5 years and is not benefitted by the extended warranty. And then there is this:



> • Normal Wear: This warranty does not cover repair when normal use has exhausted the useful life of a part.


So my feeling is that the odds of something breaking that is covered, is much less than something that isn't. I had a problem with a defective compression relief mechanism on a snowblower that I don't own anymore. This was under the initial warranty period and found relatively soon after receiving the unit. It was fixed through the standard warranty.

All of this is just guessing on my part... nobody can guarantee what will happen, and I still have a couple years to purchase the extended warranty. If it does become a lemon I will buy the warranty. Or, if I feel extra flush with cash and have a weak moment I may purchase it too. But for now it's a pass.

But back to the original question of the thread. The extended warranty is reasonable right now at $99 and might be a good insurance policy for EFI units.


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## russ01915 (Dec 18, 2013)

Just like a car warranty, wear and tear items are not covered eg brakes, rotors etc. For $99 ( $49.50 per year) , you get the extended Ariens warranty which when applied to the original warranty, gives you 5 years of coverage. The cost of the ecu alone is $150. A new engine alone is over $450. The cost of the hydro is $$$. Then add on labor. If I was buying a new machine, I would pony up the $99.


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## bbwb (Oct 25, 2018)

Well, this morning I had to put the injured blower into service as we are having a winter storm...6" this morning and another 6" on the way.
When I started it up this morning, got the 28 code right away (high voltage). Just for poops and laughs, I turned the speed down, turned on the heated grips to load up the electrical system and the code light went out. The only time it came back on is when I really forced the engine to go to full throttle and then pulled out so the rpm's went back up. However, later in the adventure when the same conditions were applied, it did not flash a code. Currently it has a rapid green flash....healed itself??? I doubt it.


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## russ01915 (Dec 18, 2013)

I doubt it to. Take your phone and video it, when flashing the code, to show the dealer.


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## Dannoman (Jan 16, 2018)

I think it's a disgrace a company with a solid reputation like Ariens is packing their guarantees full of weasel words. This is no way to treat customers who are paying big bucks and taking a chance on as yet unproven EFI technology. Ariens should be fully supporting these customers who are basically paying for the privelege of being their beta testers in real-world conditions. If they care, they will notice how SBF posters react to this and will make everything right for bbwb and stand by their product 100% with no BS. Stay tuned...


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## trellis (Mar 14, 2018)

I hope it is working now! 

But this is really good advice, especially if it ends up being an intermittent problem.



> Take your phone and video it, when flashing the code, to show the dealer.


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## ELaw (Feb 4, 2015)

I'll admit I've never laid hands on a snowblower with EFI but to me this sounds like it could be a bad or disconnected battery.

The alternator on most snowblowers with a battery is very simplistic... there's no regulator or anything, it just puts out what it puts out. The battery acts as a voltage stabilizer... absorbing power when there's extra, and supplying power when the alternator is not putting out enough to meet demand.

If the battery is bad or disconnected, you lose that stabilizing effect. With low load and high engine RPM the voltage will be too high (as you're seeing), and at high load and/or low RPM the voltage may be too low.

Bottom line, if it's under warranty then definitely try to get them to fix it but otherwise I'd try replacing the battery.


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

I'm not an EE. But the ECU battery is a little 7.4V NiMH battery pack. So I'd certainly hope there's some sort of voltage regulation, since that's pretty far from 12-14V. 

If the battery was disconnected or not functioning at all, my understanding is the ECU and fuel pump wouldn't be able to run enough to get the engine to start. 

I agree I wish these systems were flawless. But before we get to talking about how Ariens is/isn't supporting the owner, does the dealer even know about the problem yet? If that was mentioned and I missed it, I apologize.


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## Dannoman (Jan 16, 2018)

I agree with you Red. The proof will be in the pudding. It's just that I see a lot of legal mumbo jumbo in the extended guarantee and that kind of stuck in my craw. Hope it all goes well for bwbb and that he keeps us posted.


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## bbwb (Oct 25, 2018)

Hi Red:
Nope, not contacted the dealer yet as we are in the middle of winter storm...because I need to blow a bunch of snow for the next day or so (we are also coming into our real heavy snow season in March) I will need to have surgical precision on bringing it back to the dealer, time for repair/get parts etc...before the next big snow.
As I mentioned above, the code light came on first thing this morning, reappeared once and then went back to normal. If it is anything like my auto dealer, unless they see the code they are "unable to verify the problem", so there must not be one. The idea to record the code is a good one.
This weekend if I have time, I will poke around with the voltmeter to see if it is within the specs.
Robert


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## ELaw (Feb 4, 2015)

RedOctobyr said:


> I'm not an EE. But the ECU battery is a little 7.4V NiMH battery pack. So I'd certainly hope there's some sort of voltage regulation, since that's pretty far from 12-14V.


Ah, okay, that sounds quite a bit different from the systems on the older machines I'm familiar with.

I'd still say if the owner is electrically inclined or knows someone who is, and the connections are accessible, put a voltmeter across the battery when the thing is experiencing the problem.

People love to blame ECU's for problems but I'd say if the thing is reporting the voltage is too high, there's a significant chance that... wait for it... the voltage is too high. Which would still mean troubleshooting would need to be done and a repair made, but it could be cheaper than a new ECU.


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

At the very least, check the battery connector. I've been following a lot of the EFI problem threads, and it seems like a fair number are just bad connections . . . Could well start fine, and then the vibration affect a marginal connection.


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## scrappy (Dec 7, 2014)

Pro tip from the automotive side of me.


High voltage codes can be set due to faulty grounds. Or in simple terms, the voltage has no or less load due a bad ground connection. ECU reads it as high voltage.


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## Stone (Feb 3, 2019)

You could also try disconnecting the battery for 5 minutes. It should allow it to reset and clear out the code. Its worth a shot if its just giving an incorrect code. Plus when you reconnect it you can snug up the terminals as mentioned above.


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## 69ariens (Jan 29, 2011)

If it's still under warranty, don't mess with it.You can void the warranty. just bring it back and let them deal with it. As far as efi I own two efi kohlers on Gravely mowers and one of them has over 2000 hrs on it with out a glitch.


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## Jackmels (Feb 18, 2013)

Thank God for $12 Carbs


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## bbwb (Oct 25, 2018)

69ariens said:


> If it's still under warranty, don't mess with it.You can void the warranty. just bring it back and let them deal with it. As far as efi I own two efi kohlers on Gravely mowers and one of them has over 2000 hrs on it with out a glitch.


Yep, I agree, won't screw with it except for checking the voltages per the service manual. At least I will be able to speak intelligently to the service guy when I do bring it in.


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## Snowbelt_subie (Dec 20, 2016)

i know its frustrating especially with the amount of $$$ they cost..... but i could have told you there was going to be problems just like any new design with anything mechanical EFI is going to have problems.

check back in 2-3 years once they get the bugs ironed out.


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

I'd still check the connectors . . . *zero* warranty risk doing that . . .


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## melson (Feb 9, 2015)

The way the OP describes the issue it appears the battery is being driven above max voltage -overcharged- at high engine rpm.
As previously discussed, the 'alternator' output is rpm dependant; it can be as low as 5 or 6 volts at idle, and can rise above 40 volts (depending upon several variables) at 3600. 

Many models that came with factory equipped with 12 volt starter and battery system also have a regulator circuit to maintain battery voltage within normal limits ("normal" limits are generally accepted to be 12.4 vdc to 14.5 vdc for a 12 volt battery). 
Before going further, at this point you need to use a multimeter to verify that battery voltage is, in fact, going above 15 volts. 

If you verify the battery voltage is, in fact, rising beyond 15 vdc, and, if there is a regulator circuit (which you should have) then it's safe to assume the regulator is faulty.
However, there are other things that can cause a battery to exhibit your symptoms (even with a working regulator). 
These include, but not limited to: Improper sizing of battery (under sized); sulphated cell(s); low specific gravity; battery is very cold; any combination of those things. For example, if your battery is in low SOC -State Of Charge-, and, if the temperature is below zero, this combination will inhibit charge absorption, at least initially. Which means the applied voltage will go high until such time the charge process can begin. 
I hope this makes sense and helps. Good luck.


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

The ECU battery is a 7.4V NiMH pack, and the machine shown on Ariens' site does not have a starter battery. So voltage regulation issues can still apply, but lead-acid concerns should not.


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## bbwb (Oct 25, 2018)

RedOctobyr said:


> The ECU battery is a 7.4V NiMH pack, and the machine shown on Ariens' site does not have a starter battery. So voltage regulation issues can still apply, but lead-acid concerns should not.


Correct, a battery pack.
I have just been so busy, that I have not had a chance to check out the voltages per the service manual...also been bombed by 6" snow events every couple of days. Glad I have not taken it back to the dealer as I would have been shoveling while I wait for parts/service.


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## Greg13 (Nov 25, 2018)

It's called progress, take a simple thing and make it so complicated that you need a 4 year degree to figure it out and $10000 in tools to fix it! But it meets EPA guidelines.


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## IDEngineer (Oct 16, 2018)

ColdinMontana said:


> That stinks. I seriously considered EFI when I bought my Pro 32, but got cold feet at the end. Figured I'd stick with what is tested and proven.


Bingo. I too bought a brand new Pro32, but no hydro nor EFI for me! Simple friction disk drive, simple carb, etc. And I'm an Engineer who designs electronic hardware and software for a living! Point is, there's a time for complexity and there's a time for simplicity. When it's 4am and pitch dark outside with a foot of fresh snow and my son needs to get to school on time, there's a lot of value in being able to diagnose and fix the snowblower yourself with common tools. When I picked up my new machine, I also picked up a box of spare parts... extra belts (both kinds), extra friction disk, extra drive wheel, etc. I know how to disassemble and clean a carb. And all of that requires nothing more than standard tools. Think of it as really inexpensive insurance...since you pay LESS for standard friction drives and carbs, it's like the manufacturer is paying YOU for ease of maintenance and repair for the entire life of the machine!


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## bbwb (Oct 25, 2018)

I finally brought the blower in to have it repaired under warranty...they wound up replacing the brains (ECU) and also replaced the 7 volt battery as the pin connectors did not stay put in the plastic housing. All done under warranty.

We will have to see if this is a fluke or something that will make me a repeat visitor to the repair shop.

Well the snow I think is done except for the 10.6" we got on Wednesday. We broke the snowfall record for that day.


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## Cutter (Mar 29, 2017)

IDEngineer said:


> Bingo. I too bought a brand new Pro32, but no hydro nor EFI for me! Simple friction disk drive, simple carb, etc. And I'm an Engineer who designs electronic hardware and software for a living! Point is, there's a time for complexity and there's a time for simplicity. When it's 4am and pitch dark outside with a foot of fresh snow and my son needs to get to school on time, there's a lot of value in being able to diagnose and fix the snowblower yourself with common tools. When I picked up my new machine, I also picked up a box of spare parts... extra belts (both kinds), extra friction disk, extra drive wheel, etc. I know how to disassemble and clean a carb. And all of that requires nothing more than standard tools. Think of it as really inexpensive insurance...since you pay LESS for standard friction drives and carbs, it's like the manufacturer is paying YOU for ease of maintenance and repair for the entire life of the machine!



Wow....Kudo's to you. Never looked at the situation quite like that before, but I like that twist on things. :grin:


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## Cutter (Mar 29, 2017)

Snowbelt_subie said:


> i know its frustrating especially with the amount of $$$ they cost..... but i could have told you there was going to be problems just like any new design with anything mechanical EFI is going to have problems.
> 
> check back in 2-3 years once they get the bugs ironed out.



You are so right. I know a well-to-do gentleman who buys a new vehicle every 2 to 3 years, and he says never to buy any release of a new car or truck, in the first model year. Always wait for a later production, once they have the bugs worked out.:wink2:


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