# Brand quality



## kueh (Dec 29, 2013)

Really, how bad or good are the different brands for brand new machines ? Maybe by design, there are better ones, but nowadays most 2-stage blowers are nearly identical. If any company made at truly inferior product, they certainly would not be making them now. Other than some innovations that have failed, most machines should last 10 years in the hands of home owners.

I'll be upgrading from my old Gilson. It looks like the impeller shaft bearing needs to be replaced. There is clunking coming from the gears when I move the blower in neutral.


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## sscotsman (Dec 8, 2010)

yes, most are "good"..but some are just "good" while others are actually "better than good"..Its like with cars..Its just a fact that a new Honda is a much more reliable and higher-quality machine than a new Chrysler or Kia..with cars, snowblowers, and many other things, they all "look the same" at a casual glance, but there are genuine differences in quality once you dig deeper. Personally I would put snowblower brands into three tiers:

*Best*, highest quality, can last 40 years easily:

Ariens
Toro
Honda
Briggs brands: (Briggs & Stratton, Simplicity, Snapper, Brute)

I would only choose from the above four manufacturers, if buying new.
Although Toro moved their 2-stage production to Mexico, so I personally would no longer buy a new Toro for that reason alone..although the actual impact on quality is unknown.

*"Good"*, probably fine, for 5 to 10 years, but not as good, and wont last as long as the above names:

Any MTD (Cub Cadet, Troy-Bilt, Yard Machines, and some others.)
Any Craftsman.
Husquvarna and Poulan.

*Never ever buy..ever.*. all the 100% Chinese brand names, these names have documented cases of very poor quality..some of them have been discussed by people in this forum, who bought one before understanding what they were buying..the reviews are not good:

Echelon
Huskee
Mansfield
Powerland
powRcraft
Snow Beast
Snow Joe
Stanley
World Lawn


Scot


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## sscotsman (Dec 8, 2010)

kueh said:


> If any company made at truly inferior product, they certainly would not be making them now.


The sad thing is, there are truly inferior products being made, and sold, all the time..in the case of snowblowers, its those 100% made in China machines..so why do they sell? because people *dont know* they are truly inferior before they buy them! and many people want things as cheap as possible..So there are manufacturers who are perfectly willing to oblige..if the snowblower dies after one or two uses, usually the buyer can get a refund..but if it dies after one or two years, they are usually out of luck..they then go out, older and wiser, and buy an Ariens, Toro or Briggs machine..meanwhile, the Chinese manufacturer already got their money, and they continue to claim more victims..

It is actually true that some new snowblowers will last a year or two..maybe 5 at the most if you are really lucky..while there are a ton of 30, 40 and 50 year old Ariens machines still going strong. I think that by law, as long the machine *actually works*, even for a short time, its perfectly legal..they only have to be *just* good enough to move snow once or twice..maybe a year tops, and thats "good enough" for a low-end Walmart snowblower..if it dies 2 years later because it really is THAT bad in quality, the answer from the govt and the cheap manufacturers is: "oh well..too bad..you got what you paid for, you should have researched things better if you wanted something better.."..

I think the problem is that Americans haven't quite figured out that this kind of thing is happening yet!  We are still used to the many past decades of *actual* good quality products being made..and *only* good quality products being made..especially when it comes to items that cost several hundreds of dollars..We haven't yet quite grasped the concept that when we demand, as a society, everything to be ultra-cheap..we are getting it..with the ultra-cheap quality to match..In the 1960's and 70's you couldn't BUY a snowblower with the low quality you can find today! they didn't exist..even the least expensive machine was still "good quality"..that is no longer the case today.

Scot


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## Freezn (Mar 1, 2014)

I agree with the basic premise the most snow blowers currently produced are "serviceable" under normal snowfall conditions. However, I believe there are three components that separates the "average" snow blowers from the "elite" snow blowers: 1) Performance 2) Price and 3) Reliability/Longevity. Yeah, most "middle-of-the-road/"average" snow blowers on the market do a pretty fair job moving the light dry snow without too much trouble. However when the snow starts getting wet/heavy, temperatures start dropping, and the wind starts howling, that's when we separate the tools from the toys. There's no question the premium brands cost more, but when conditions are at their worst, these high end machines have a well established track record for reliability and performance. I'm not saying the average middle-of-the-road machines can't perform under these same conditions, however you might find that it takes more time and physical effort to start and complete the job. My suggestion would be to consider the premium brands (Honda, Toro, Ariens, etc.) and buy a unit that best suits your needs. If you decide to go with the "middle-of-the-road" brands, I suggest going with a unit with the most available power. Nothing worse than having an underpowered snow blower in the middle of a severe winter.


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## detdrbuzzard (Jan 20, 2012)

I would rather fix the Gilson that buy something off of scotts " good " or " never buy " list


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## UNDERTAKER (Dec 30, 2013)

I Rather have it made in MEXICO, then china.


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## Bob E (Jun 9, 2014)

sscotsman said:


> I think the problem is that Americans haven't quite figured out that this kind of thing is happening yet!  We are still used to the many past decades of *actual* good quality products being made.
> Scot


Just give it a few more decades and nobody will even remember what quality is. Everybody is going to be stuck re purchasing the same junk over and over. And every new purchase will probably be automatically monitored, categorized, and logged by google.


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## MagnumB (Oct 1, 2014)

Bob E said:


> Just give it a few more decades and nobody will even remember what quality is. Everybody is going to be stuck re purchasing the same junk over and over. And every new purchase will probably be automatically monitored, categorized, and logged by google.


They have been saying that for years. Yet, most daily use electronics that service us well day to day are made in China (much lauded Apple quality for instance) 

Where you make it has little to do with the quality, it's how much quality you are willing to put into it when you make it. 

I'm from Canada, so buying from the states or Mexico or China is all foreign to me


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## kueh (Dec 29, 2013)

MagnumB said:


> They have been saying that for years. Yet, most daily use electronics that service us well day to day are made in China (much lauded Apple quality for instance)
> 
> ....


These are the same things that were said about Japanese product, just a few decades ago. Many Japanese products are made in China now.


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## db9938 (Nov 17, 2013)

15-20 years, or so, ago we were saying that about Korean made goods.
20-25 Taiwanese.

It's just a matter of time before they step up. And there will be equivalent brands to Toyota, LG, and the like.


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## kueh (Dec 29, 2013)

detdrbuzzard said:


> I would rather fix the Gilson that buy something off of scotts " good " or " never buy " list


I would rather fix it as well. The "bucket" was not aligned properly, somehow. The wear on the area where there should be a scraper is uneven. If I adjust the bucket to be level with the ground, there is a large gap on one side. 

The Gilson's chute is a little to short. I have to double throw the snow, due to wind issues. After a few snowfalls, a wall builds up which makes it hard to blow over it. 

When pushing the blower in neutral, the gears near the wheels make a clunking sound. I had to flip one of the gears, a long time ago, as the the drive was skipping. The gear was worn on one side.

I have to extend the handles so they are up to today's standard height, maybe 6-8 inches.

The impeller shaft bearing needs to be replaced. I think the shaft itself worn, I believe. I disassembled and reassembled the blower about 25 years ago.

Oh, and the hard rubber wheels are really worn. The shaft is 1/2 inch, I believe.

A doable project, but .....


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## GustoGuy (Nov 19, 2012)

db9938 said:


> 15-20 years, or so, ago we were saying that about Korean made goods.
> 20-25 Taiwanese.
> 
> It's just a matter of time before they step up. And there will be equivalent brands to Toyota, LG, and the like.


For the most part that is true. At one time Hyundia automobiles were considered very poor quality as recently as the mid 1990's. Now the Brand ranks among the best made automobiles available. Japanese goods at one time were considered inferior too. Now they are considered among the best in the world with Honda and Toyota being the examples

Tecumseh had it's day in the sun were they enjoyed a near monopoloy on snow blower engines. However they became complacent and failed to innovate and improve upon it's products. OHV engines with faulty compression release mechanisms and old obsolete polluting Flat head engines which were prone to blowing connecting rods. Honda came along and designed a small OHV general purpose engine back in the 1980's which won the world over with is smoothness, quietness and reliability and they are now the basic design which nearly all small engines manufactures emulate. I would like to see manufacturing make a good comeback here in America too. As to small engines being made here in the USA have unfortunately all have been out sourced to China now over the last few years. 
Hopefully we will not be seeing Chinese made automobiles entering the USA market. Unfortunately if Warren Buffet has his way we could soon be seeing this happening. China for the most part is still the low cost manufacturer to the world. Since it is still a communist country their government manipulates it's currency rate to make sure it's goods are the lowest price on the market. Multinational copmpanies will go anywhere in the world to make things with the lowest labor cost since labor costs are among the biggest single expenditure of any company 
Not all Chinese made products are junk either some products are also quite good. Foxconn of China makes the Apple I-phone and many other computer parts for computer which are sold all over the world.


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## Bob E (Jun 9, 2014)

Whoops, I didn't think this would derail so bad, but since it has;



MagnumB said:


> They have been saying that for years.





db9938 said:


> 15-20 years, or so, ago we were saying that about Korean made goods.
> 20-25 Taiwanese.


I seriously thought I just made that up, I don't think I've ever heard anybody say it before. 
The thing I've noticed that made me say it is the old Japanese guitars and amps that were once considered junk when being compared to the old American stuff. It is now considered to be pretty good when being compared to the new Chinese, Korean, Indonesian, or whatever stuff. Is it just a change of opinion or a lowering of standards? 
Meanwhile my 60 year old made in USA Westinghouse coffee percolator just keeps making coffee every morning.


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## sscotsman (Dec 8, 2010)

Derailed? I dont think anything has derailed at all! 
you asked a question, you are getting lots of in-depth answers! 

yeah, its now dived into the politics of quality, and corporate decisions and policies..but really, that is what it's all about. All our products come from somewhere..someone makes them. when the entire world is involved, politics pretty much have to be a factor..

carry on! 

Scot


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## db9938 (Nov 17, 2013)

Thanks Scot. 

I guess the older you get, the more cheaply things appear to be made, regardless where they come from. I remember when TV's were pieces of furniture, not picture frames. Cars where status symbols that bordered on rolling art, not miniaturized safety cages. And a tool was dependable, not questionable. 

I may be older than some here, and younger than others, but I know that there has been a progressive cheapening of the quality of everything.


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## SlowRider22 (Oct 17, 2013)

db9938 said:


> I may be older than some here, and younger than others, but I know that there has been a progressive cheapening of the quality of everything.


I'm pretty sure this is the best quote on the forum, while retaining pertanance to our entire country. Couldn't have said it better myself


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## wdb (Dec 15, 2013)

I dunno about all this whinging over quality. Yes small gasoline engines have largely gone in the crapper, but there is a lot of stuff made today that puts past versions to shame.


db9938 said:


> I guess the older you get, the more cheaply things appear to be made, regardless where they come from. I remember when TV's were pieces of furniture, not picture frames. Cars where status symbols that bordered on rolling art, not miniaturized safety cages. And a tool was dependable, not questionable.


I'll take my hi-def LED 'picture frame' every day of the week over the "console" TV my parents had, with its cathode ray tube, ineffective tuner, abominiable picture quality, and nonexistent audio fidelity. And I'd choose a 2008 Honda Fit every single day of the week over a 1968 VW Beetle, despite the Fit's sheetmetal being a mere fraction of the thickness. The Beetle had no brakes, no heat, no control at speeds above 50, and even low speed front end collisions regularly broke occupant's legs. The Fit gets the same gas mileage, runs for a dog's age without cracking a single bolt on the engine or transmission, stops on a dime, handles like a gokart. It might be damaged more extensively in a similar accident, but the occupants are far more likely to simply open the doors, step out, wipe their brow, and walk away.

And good tools are still available. The difference I see is that there actually used to be good cheap tools, such as Craftsman, and that seems to have gone by the wayside. These days good tools = high price.

And for the record, I'm no spring chicken.


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## Freezn (Mar 1, 2014)

As crazy as it sounds, we as consumers are partially to blame for substandard products. Cost is a huge factor when analyzing purchasing behavior. We want high quality products at rock bottom prices. From a manufacturing standpoint, those two components don’t always mix given that costs for raw materials, packaging, diesel, natural gas, oil, electricity, labor, employee benefits, health care etc.... have all increased dramatically over the last 20 years. Let’s face it, as consumers we don't like it when those costs are passed along via price increases, so manufactures are forced to implement cost-cutting measures elsewhere....inferior materials, cheaper unskilled labor, and less overall product for your dollar. There's only so much elasticity in retail pricing that consumers will accept. Most (Not All) consumers are willing to trade quality and quantity for price. That's why product "down-sizing" or “down-grading” is so prevalent these days as a cost cutting measure. Personally, I don't mind paying more for high quality products. I'm fully aware that there's a cost associated with premium high quality products and I'm willing to pay that price. What drives me nuts is when a manufacturer takes a successful high quality product and "Box-Store-izes" it with inferior materials to keep the cost down. Then that product becomes the standard for other manufactures and the cycle goes on and on. Again, sad to say, we as consumers are partially to blame for driving that trend. I say, “give me my steel snowblower discharge chute and charge me accordingly.” Don't cheapen the quality of the machine to appeal to the masses. Just my $0.02


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## db9938 (Nov 17, 2013)

Albeit, I agree with most of both of you have stated, especially the picture frame. I really cannot argue with 60" of HD. 

And yes, we as consumers are greatly to blame. We have settled for the item that is temporarily "good enough," without thought of any future purpose. Essentially, making a disposable purchase, to satisfy the needs of a fleeting moment. 

Sadly, it contradicts most of what the folks on here try to do, in repairing and maintaining something longer than the next season. 

Insofar as your Fit, I am glad you like it, but it would not be my cup of tea.


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## Bob E (Jun 9, 2014)

I have an Accord with a frag grenade in the steering wheel and dash set to go off in the event of a collision that I would trade it for a vintage beetle in a heartbeat.


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## Ryan (Dec 13, 2013)

GustoGuy said:


> For the most part that is true. At one time Hyundia automobiles were considered very poor quality as recently as the mid 1990's. Now the Brand ranks among the best made automobiles available.


Actually Hyundai/Kia (Same company owns both, same technology behind both) still to this day suffers from crappy reliability. Still well behind the Japanese, European, and even the American autos with reliability. Though they have been improving, no doubt about that.


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## db9938 (Nov 17, 2013)

Bob E said:


> I have an Accord with a frag grenade in the steering wheel and dash set to go off in the event of a collision that I would trade it for a vintage beetle in a heartbeat.


It just lacks a decal, "POINT TOWARDS ENEMY."


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## GustoGuy (Nov 19, 2012)

Ryan said:


> Actually Hyundai/Kia (Same company owns both, same technology behind both) still to this day suffers from crappy reliability. Still well behind the Japanese, European, and even the American autos with reliability. Though they have been improving, no doubt about that.


I have a so-called crappy 2003 Hyundia Elantra for my daily driver and I have 347,000 miles on it and it runs great and this is the original engine too. By the way I use Amsoil synthetic and people have driven as much as a million miles in some cases on a vehicle with the original engine when using Amsoil. Hear about the Wisconsin Volvo with over a million miles on the original engine. Guess what oil he was running in it? Amsoil is made in the USA in Superior WI and yes it cost more than cheap oil but your engine will last and last if you use it.


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## Normex (Feb 21, 2014)

The simple reason for the lessening of quality of all products manufactured is not entirely due to consumer pressure but more attributed to shareholders demands for profit. Family companies like Ariens are put through the vise to build good quality equipment and stay competitive hence Chinese manufactured engines that still have to prove their durability but so far well regarded in functionality. JMO


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## brickcity (Jan 23, 2014)

I also have a unreliable crappy 2007 hyundia. just went over 120,000. thinking about changing the timeing belt. nothing worse than having that break in the middle of nowhere. hyundai has been producing good cars for many years now.
in my opinon all cars are made better now than when i was a kid. my first car was a brand new 69 vw beetle for $1,700. every window leaked and ran on 3 cylinders every time it rained.
back then ford sucked unless you were a motorhead and loved fixing your car. then the japs starting putting out datsuns that ran for over 100,000 and everybody starting buying them forcing ford and all the other american carmakers to make more reliable cars or go out of business.
nowaday's every car even the least expensive ones run for at least 100,000


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## Ryan (Dec 13, 2013)

GustoGuy said:


> I have a so-called crappy 2003 Hyundia Elantra for my daily driver and I have 347,000 miles on it and it runs great and this is the original engine too. By the way I use Amsoil synthetic and people have driven as much as a million miles in some cases on a vehicle with the original engine when using Amsoil. Hear about the Wisconsin Volvo with over a million miles on the original engine. Guess what oil he was running in it? Amsoil is made in the USA in Superior WI and yes it cost more than cheap oil but your engine will last and last if you use it.


That is great! Congrats! But there are many more vehicles out there with high millage, even million miles, that ran good old dyno oil. Run what you want, but just because you use a "special" high priced oil that allows for extended drain intervals doesn't mean that mechanical breakdown won't take place. Sure synthetic has it's advantages but those advantages won't fix poor engineering and design. My mother has a 2008 Hyundai Santa Fe with the 2.8?L V-6 that has been to the dealer at least 7 times since she got it due to injector issues, transmission slipping, a cylinder leak.. whatever that meant.. (they tore down the engine and had to do something to that cylinder to fix it? Compression related?) Thankfully the past year has not seen any issues other than the alternator going out. It's a good thing they have that 10 year 100,000 mile warranty. I will say Kudos to the local Hyundai dealership for always taking care of my mother and ensuring she is completely satisfied with the service they provided her. One day when I took it down for a recall appointment, I got to talking to one of the service advisers who took me out back and pointed out a row of similar Santa Fe's also there for the recall and he also mentioned each one of those has been in at least 2 or more times prior for similar issues as to what we have experienced thus far, mostly the alternator and transmission slip issue. Now I know first hand having worked at a dealership chain for awhile in the years after high school that included Chevy, Subaru, Toyota, and Nissan, that there isn't one perfect brand of vehicle out there. I saw new corvettes be towed in that had broken down, I saw brand new Outbacks and Camarys and Maximas that had been sold just weeks prior get towed in because of breakdowns.. I saw customers who were furious over how a supposedly "reliable" brand could have left them stranded like that. And then a service adviser taught me something that I have not forgotten to this day. Anything mechanical, no matter how well engineered and tested, is subject to breaking or failure. If it were not so, there would be no need for a service department. Sometimes you get lucky. Sometimes you end up with a lemon. It's a gamble.


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## GustoGuy (Nov 19, 2012)

> That is great! Congrats! But there are many more vehicles out there with high millage, even million miles, that ran good old dyno oil.


 Good old dino oil can not even come close to competing with the quality of a good synthetic. Amsoil has alway been shown to be among the very best of the synthetics in independant testing. I also agree that cars are complicated machines and often break downs or malfuctions are as a result of electronics of the vehicle so it would not even matter then if you are using a synthetic oil in that case. 

I may have been lucky with my Elantra. But automobiles today are so much better than automobiles of 20+ years ago.


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## Ryan (Dec 13, 2013)

All I am trying to say is that you can run Amsoil and waste the money that you do paying for that stuff when the vehicle is going to run just as good for much less expensive stuff. Amsoil is yet just another name among many in the synthetic oil market. Some people think that if they pay extra $$$ because it has the name Amsoil or Royal Purple or whatever, they think they are guaranteed better performance and longevity and that simply is not the case. But if it makes someone feel good, then that is fine, it is their money. I'll shut up now.


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## cabinfever (Sep 2, 2014)

Ryan said:


> Actually Hyundai/Kia (Same company owns both, same technology behind both) still to this day suffers from crappy reliability. Still well behind the Japanese, European, and even the American autos with


Have owned 3 on our family since 2000, havent seen this to be true. Less problems with our vehicles than my friends two Acuras.


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## db9938 (Nov 17, 2013)

cabinfever said:


> Have owned 3 on our family since 2000, havent seen this to be true. Less problems with our vehicles than my friends two Acuras.


I have to agree with your findings. We owned a Hyundai Entourage(Built by Kia), since new, for seven years. 

The only problem, that we encountered, was a faulty boot to the air cleaner. The rubber had degraded to the point that it set off a code. The dealership was always forthright in advising on recall and repairs. And would often catch by surprise, as we had never detected a problem. I will say that at the time, I thought that they were not the most innovative, but rather taking what had worked on other makes and incorporating them into one package. In my mind, there is no question that they are trying to shake off the image of the past. 

And their plant in Alabama, makes any future decision easier.


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## brickcity (Jan 23, 2014)

hyundai is a descent, reliable car. i bought my second one in 2007 after i totaled my first one in 2001. in the early 90's they were crappy cars and got a bad reputation that many people still believe. they have upgraded. they are not mercedes or bmw but they are definitly a reliable affordable car


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## pwm (Jun 12, 2014)

It's hard to make generalizations about brands. 
Case in point: I bought an Ariens Professional 28" blower which left a puddle of oil under it after the first start up. The oil was coming from underneath the motor and dripping down the frame. This is the Briggs & Stratton 420cc unit. Now, I know that everyone on this board would tell you that Ariens makes one of the best blowers going, but I took mine back to Home Depot this morning for a refund. I wanted nothing more to do with it. So how often does that happen? Maybe one in 10,000 units? Who knows, but as far as I am concerned it's a 100% failure rate in my experience.


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## sscotsman (Dec 8, 2010)

yeah, that happens..thats always disappointing! I once had a friend who bought a brand-new Honda Accord, she was about 23 and a new engineer straight out of college..had nothing but trouble with it! it was just a lemon..she sold it and vowed to never own another Honda ever again..(which is unfortunate because in reality the Honda Accord is pretty much the most reliable car of all time)..she just got a bad one for some reason..She then went on to Chryslers, which was a much worse decision..

Scot


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## db9938 (Nov 17, 2013)

And in part, it is those sort of events, that leads folks to look elsewhere. Believe me, when we were looking for a mini van, we looked at them all. Some better then others, but the price also reflected that. The same goes for snowblowers.


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## brickcity (Jan 23, 2014)

sounds like you got the one bad apple, a lemon.
i wouldn't give up on ariens and like you said it might be a briggs screw up.
like scot said, one bad honda accord is no reason not to buy another one.


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## Ryan (Dec 13, 2013)

Also any sort of mechanical device is subject to failure, new or old. Regardless of quality control and testing and who knows what else. It sucks. No guarantees.


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## HJames (Oct 28, 2013)

Ryan said:


> Also any sort of mechanical device is subject to failure, new or old. Regardless of quality control and testing and who knows what else. It sucks. No guarantees.



The difference is that the better brands stand behind there products with their warranties The better the brand the longer the warranty and the more it covers. I agree that everything is bound to break eventually, but how long are they financially willing to stand behind their product?


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