# Several problems with a Zongshen, this is interesting



## JLawrence08648 (Jan 15, 2017)

First the intro, then the problems, then the problem I need help with.

But before I start, the Craftsman Zongshen engine is junk, you'll know why, and is going to be replaced with another engine, probably Predator. 

I went to a new customer's house yesterday to diagnose and fix a 3 yr old Craftsman 24" Zongshen engine that she paid a unscrupulous Handyman to fix her snowblower. She paid him what he requested and paid him $69 for a new carburetor. He did some work, left with the carb cover off, some other things below, saying he will return to finish, never did, wouldn't return her calls, then blocked her phone number.

I was hired to get it running. No gas in tank, I removed the fuel bowl to drain any gas, just a little, mineral build up or crud on the bowl nuts, why? Nuts were not loose, gasket? Then noticed the throttle linkage and spring were not connected, then the black plastic throttle piece was burnt and melted! Lol. Terrible. I tried to remove the spark plug, got it out, little more than average friction, then it had no gap! The electrode was pushed closed. Plus it was LG. I replaced it with a NGK 6, put some Never-Seize on the threads, I had a hard time going in, I didn't think it was seated. (It wasn't) I tried starting it. No go. I pulled the plug wire off, using the old LG plug, electric cranking, no spark, I removed the NGK plug, remember it was not seated, finding in a few minutes it may have been 1/4" out! the electrode was also closed! No gap! Why? It wasn't even in all the way! Why would the electrode be bent closed? The piston was moving up and down when I pulled the cord, looking through the spark plug hole, I saw it. How could it be rising higher than it was suppose to, connecting rod, rod bolts? There was no knocking. This is an OHV engine. So I have no spark. I disconnected the wires at the key and still no spark. Is the coil bad? Cut wire that is grounding? I removed the muffler to get a better look at the spark plug hole. There were 2 cracks spaced an inch apart around on the head around the spark plug hole looking almost like somewhere down the line a piece could break off. Looking in the spark plug hole, 2/3 down the hole there were threads missing, not destroyed, missing! That's why I couldn't seat the plug. There were threads from the top, then missing, about 3 thread length missing, then there were 3-4 more threads.

So I have an engine that needs a new carb, no spark maybe a coil, new head and then I don't know why the plug electrode is being bent.

I felt so bad telling this woman it's best (cheaper) to put an engine on it.


----------



## orangputeh (Nov 24, 2016)

JLawrence08648 said:


> First the intro, then the problems, then the problem I need help with.
> 
> But before I start, the Craftsman Zongshen engine is junk, you'll know why, and is going to be replaced with another engine, probably Predator.
> 
> ...


What is overall condition of rest of machine.what size? 

What is her budget? With winter almost over I'd wait until spring/summer to get a deal on another machine maybe unless you can throw on a $99 predator on a decent chassis?

I feel sorry for people who have been ripped off. I could probably send my grandkids thru a year of college with the free work I have performed for these people.

look forward to an update.


----------



## Ziggy65 (Jan 18, 2020)

Make sure the machine doesn't have one of the disposable plastic transmissions. If it does, I would not spend another penny on the machine, better to cut their losses and buy a better quality machine.

Glad she has finally found someone with honesty and skill to sort out the best solution. I hate seeing people scammed, but it happens all the time these days.


----------



## JLawrence08648 (Jan 15, 2017)

The machine is 3 years old, garage kept, immaculate, looks new, so it has a good chassis.

No plastic transmission, gears, a big gear wheel, friction disk.

This machine is well worth fixing, replacing the engine, otherwise I would never have recommended that option to her. She offered it to me for free for parts or scrap. I told her what I would do is replace the engine then sell it. If you paid me for the engine and labor, then greasing, oiling, adjusting, you could not buy used this good a snowblower for that price.


----------



## oneboltshort (Dec 16, 2019)

Pull the valve cover, one of the seats fell in, valve is open from bent push rod, or you have carb parts in the cylinder. That's how spark plug keeps getting hit and where your threads went.


----------



## orangputeh (Nov 24, 2016)

JLawrence08648 said:


> The machine is 3 years old, garage kept, immaculate, looks new, so it has a good chassis.
> 
> No plastic transmission, gears, a big gear wheel, friction disk.
> 
> This machine is well worth fixing, replacing the engine, otherwise I would never have recommended that option to her. She offered it to me for free for parts or scrap. I told her what I would do is replace the engine then sell it. If you paid me for the engine and labor, then greasing, oiling, adjusting, you could not buy used this good a snowblower for that price.


sounds like right track then replacing engine. good karma.


----------



## 140278 (Aug 27, 2020)

do a search of the engine number .you should turn up a zongshen/ powermore which can be found at good prices


----------



## deezlfan (Nov 8, 2017)

Clueless owner operator + Careless repair man that misdiagnosed the machine in the first place = You cleaning up a mess. Good luck tearing it down and finding the root cause. 

PS. I would be double checking the spark plug numbers first.


----------



## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

Don't put 'Never-Seize on a spark plug threads if you are putting a steel spark plug into an aluminum head unless you want to either foul the plug with contaminants of the never seize when it melts down the threads and comes in contact with the plug electrode, or you will be taking out the aluminum threads of the plug hole in the head the next time you remove the spark plug after the metals of the never seize melt and solidify at the end of the threads and 'Bake Fast' to it.
Good luck finding replacement parts for the engine.
The plug you had in the engine crosses over to the NGK '6' which is a colder plug. You want to use the '5' which is hotter and designed better for a snowblower use.
It is probably a NGK 'BPR6ES' you replaced it with. a BPR5ES works better for a snowblower.


----------



## JLawrence08648 (Jan 15, 2017)

The discussion between NGK 5 & 6 was recently, past week. It was enlightening.

I've been using the graphite Never-Seize on small engines and aluminum car heads since the late 70s and never a problem, cast steel car heads since the 60s.


----------



## Shovel (Mar 26, 2019)

The spark plug has been cross threaded and cracked the head.
It was going in crooked and pushed on the side of the ground electrode..which bent it over on top of the electrode. 
Missing threads are threads that have been flatten or pulled during a cross thread.
I expect what happened was the guy cross threaded it...pulled it..saw his mistake..put it back it then decided to just keep going attempting to cut threads on the way...He knew the plug was not all the way in so laid the big torque to it..pop goes the head due to the lateral radial expansion 

Sent from my SM-A115U1 using Tapatalk


----------



## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

JLawrence08648 said:


> The discussion between NGK 5 & 6 was recently, past week. It was enlightening.
> 
> I've been using the graphite Never-Seize on small engines and aluminum car heads since the late 70s and never a problem, cast steel car heads since the 60s.


Your 'Graphite' is different than what most people use.
The Silver is powdered aluminum, the copper is powdered copper, they are both mixed with oil to form a paste so it is a different type of metal than either the plug-steel, or the head-aluminum, sometimes steel or iron.
That is supposed to prevent the metals from sticking to each other.
Most people can't find the 'Graphite' type of never-seize when they go to the store to buy it so they just get the 'Silver' aluminum stuff and flood the threads with that, and that is a big mistake.
I have re-threaded or replaced too many heads to count because people did that, either putting 'Never-seize' on the threads or by oiling them. Plus many times the metal from the Never Seize drips down and contaminates the spark plug electrode, causing a 'Miss-Fire' or they won't spark/fire at all when that happens.
I have removed heads with the spark-plug still in them to show customers what it does to them.
You can see where the oil melts and drips down and 'Carbon Bakes' or build-up at the end of the plug that seizes it at the end, or the metal power melts and re-solidifies in the threads and also builds up at the end where the plug end protrudes through the head into the combustion chamber.
I mounted the heads in a fixture and began to remove the spark plug so the customer could watch the solidified 'Build-up' turn and come out with the spark plug taking all of the threads in the cylinder head with it.
Yes they were 'Shocked' beyond belief when they saw that happen and the damage that is caused. They thought they were doing the right thing until I showed what happens when they do that.
Your 'Graphite' would probably work better but most people can't find 'Graphite' Never Seize.
I always recommend to not put anything at all on the plug threads because of that happening. They should periodically remove the spark plug to inspect it, and by doing so, it helps keep them from becoming seized in the head in the first place.
New quality made spark plugs from a good reputable manufacturer are made with special 'Plating' coatings that does not come off on the threads to help prevent that from happening in the first place.
Not to scare people away from putting stuff on the plug threads, but if you do, don't be surprised if you have a worse problem in the future when you do that.
You have to be careful, any of those metals and Graphite is 'Conductive' and it will cause the spark to take the path of least resistance through the metals or graphite and ground out before it jumps the air gap of the electrode when the contaminants get close to or on the insulation of the electrode on the plug, and that does happen when it melts from combustion chamber heat and drips down.


----------



## 140278 (Aug 27, 2020)

try finding marine grade never seize, no metal in it,


----------



## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

That stuff is better, it does have Graphite in it, but also uses Calcium and Boron. 
The Boron is 'Non Conductive' with electricity, but the Graphite is.
That will work better than just the Graphite Anti Seize will.
It is good for high temperatures. Just have to be careful that the Boron or Calcium doesn't become 'Acidic' under use.
It would be better if more people knew about it before they go to the store and buy plain 'Anti-Seize'. It could save them some 'Head-Aches' after they ruin things with plain Anti-Seize.


----------



## 140278 (Aug 27, 2020)

some need to look in mscdirect web site , look at the number of anti seize products really out there they will be shocked that there is more than silver/nickel and copper


----------



## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

Yes there are quite a lot of different types used for different specific reasons.
The sad part is, most everybody just goes out and gets whatever says' Never Seize' on the bottle and they don't realize what they are getting or what specific reason they want a certain type, and they get the wrong stuff. They don't know about the differences of it and why to use certain ones on certain things, they think it is all the same until they ruin something with it.
I have seen that happen with people using the copper, aluminum, nickel type on spark plugs, and they really load it on, not realizing how much trouble they just caused by doing that until after the powdered metal melts in it and they ruin the threads when they try to remove the spark plug.
Some of us know not to use that, or to only use a certain type and where to find it at, but a lot of people do not know enough about it and just go to the hardware store and buy whatever they see unfortunately.
Captchas, I think you mentioned in an older post about the 'Plating' that is put on a good spark plug threads to combat the 'seizure' of the plug, and that is why you shouldn't put anything on the threads because of the damage it can cause. I tell my customers about that all the time and show them the damage caused by it on old heads with destroyed threads and some heads with the spark plug still 'welded' in them from the wrong 'Anti-Seize' that someone used unknowingly.


----------



## 140278 (Aug 27, 2020)

also when using never seize on the plug threads you VERY slightly change the heat transfer from plug to head, making why auto makers tell techs going to training classes to never use it on spark plugs

if it is used a small amount start a few threads up not top to bottom 

yes bob i did make that post, they are plated with nickel for reasons


----------



## 140278 (Aug 27, 2020)

just as a NOTE ZONGSHEN is the name of the company making the powermore for MTD, they are a decent motor when properly operated and maintained, mtd started using them after tech went under and was purchased by LCT so to have their own brand motors and not compeat with the others using LCT made motors while keeping costs down 

quote from the MTD website 

MTD has successfully entered into a joint venture with a major Asian manufacturing company, whereby both companies have collaborated their engineering, design and manufacturing expertise to produce a high end overhead valve (OHV) engine.
These engines will be exclusively distributed and serviced by MTD under the Powermore® engine brand. Powermore® engines are a premium small block engine with advantages that in many cases are better than competitive engine models. Some of the premium features include:

Overhead Valves (OHV)
Cast iron cylinder sleeve
Dual element air cleaner
Low tone muffler
Ball-bearing supported crank shaft
Large fuel tank capacity.
The power output of the MTD family of engines compares favorably with engines of similar displacement from Briggs & Stratton®, Honda®, and other popular small engine brands.


----------



## CarlB (Jan 2, 2011)

captchas said:


> also when using never seize on the plug threads you VERY slightly change the heat transfer from plug to head, making why auto makers tell techs going to training classes to never use it on spark plugs
> 
> if it is used a small amount start a few threads up not top to bottom
> 
> yes bob i did make that post, they are plated with nickel for reasons


on aluminum head engines i just coat the threads with a little motor oil. Ive never had a problem getting a plug out.


----------



## orangputeh (Nov 24, 2016)

CarlB said:


> on aluminum head engines i just coat the threads with a little motor oil. Ive never had a problem getting a plug out.


the only plugs that i have had a hard time removing are the ones cross threaded. dont understand people that will force a plug in. 

most cases have been able to repair threads with a chaser tool. one head in last 4 years needed to be removed and repaired.


----------



## 140278 (Aug 27, 2020)

good reason my tool boxes hold a spark plug 14mm x 1.25 plug tap .plus the other sizes used on smaller machines a little grease on it clean the threads on every one before installing a new plug,


----------



## JLawrence08648 (Jan 15, 2017)

captchas said:


> good reason my tool boxes hold a spark plug 14mm x 1.25 plug tap .plus the other sizes used on smaller machines a little grease on it clean the threads on every one before installing a new plug,


Do you think it enlarges thus looses the threads? I know you can buy taps & dies with different tolerances, ie looser, tighter.

I don't have one but I'm going to add it to my tool box. Do you also have one for the older American engines?


----------



## 140278 (Aug 27, 2020)

most ope engines use a 14mm x 1.25 as do cars, some 2 strokes use a 10 and 12mm thread spark plug 
yes i keep as many as i have personally needed on what i have worked on ,


----------



## sledman8002002 (Jan 20, 2021)

orangputeh said:


> dont understand people that will force a plug in


Same here, but yet it continually happens. Start it by hand before using a socket/wrench. If I have a plug to change that I cant start with my fingers I use an old spark plug cap I pulled off of an old set of wires. I've had this pair for I dont know how many years. Just slip the cap over the end of plug. They're especially nice when changing plug(s) on a hot motor.
If the plug wont start by hand there's obviously a thread issue with the plug itself or the head.


----------



## 140278 (Aug 27, 2020)

helps to turn it left till you feel a very slight click of the thread finding the starting point of the heads thread than going right, where they normally go down with ones fingers to the seal way easier


----------



## Mortten (Jan 31, 2020)

A piece of vacuum hose works well also.


----------



## burt8810 (Nov 28, 2019)

To original poster: Any status update?

Since this has turned into an "anti seize" thread (pun intended) I can say in about 63 years of motorcycle, tractor, ope and car engine work I have had more problems with "dry" plugs. In fact I have never had a problem with a plug that had a very small amount of ant- seize used on it. As far as whatever running down into the combustion chamber I find it hard to image given the internal cylinder pressure when the gas-air mixture burns. I have used anti seize on exhaust fasteners that I'm sure get hotter than an aluminum head on a small engine. The anti seize has maintained its integrity on those fasteners so I'm not convinced that the heat from a head is going to cook it..
Just my $0.02 YMMV
Herb


----------



## JLawrence08648 (Jan 15, 2017)

Update is in my first post, needs a new carb $16-$32, new head $106, possible ignition coil $74.

I'm looking for a new engine that I can get parts for such as LCT, Loncin, if not at a reasonable price then Predator this week.


----------



## vmax29 (Oct 19, 2017)

Good thread. There is no “thank button” anymore so thanks for the information. I use copper anti-seize. Haven’t used it on a plug yet. Probably saved me from some future aggravation.


----------



## Rooskie (Feb 12, 2015)

JLawrence08648 said:


> Update is in my first post, needs a new carb $16-$32, new head $106, possible ignition coil $74.
> 
> I'm looking for a new engine that I can get parts for such as LCT, Loncin, if not at a reasonable price then Predator this week.


Amongst Chinese clones', isn't the Predator the best regarded? I'd just cut to the chase.


----------



## 140278 (Aug 27, 2020)

the loncin is that, at least if you read and agree with what toro states about them . IMMO. clones are clones


----------



## nitehawk55 (Sep 9, 2021)

So what ever happened ? , was it a happy ending ??


----------



## JLawrence08648 (Jan 15, 2017)

Months ago I bought a Predator engine before the price went up. The snowblower is at her house with the engine. I need to have my neighbor with his pickup truck pick it up and bring it to my house.


----------



## nitehawk55 (Sep 9, 2021)

Great , hopefully you get it going before the snow flies . Pretty much a plug and play or mods are needed ?


----------

