# Keep gas tank full or empty in the off season?



## buffettck (Jan 4, 2017)

Last year was my first year with my first ever snowblower (Honda HS720) and it worked great. I use ethanol free gas and treat it with Stabil in the gas can, so treated fuel is always run through it, same as my lawnmower, generators, etc. I ran the carb dry and filled the tank before storing it after last season. I just drug it out and gave it a test run and it started up fine. Took two pulls. 

Would it be better after this winter to run the carb dry and drain the tank? I've read about stuff drying out and cracking if you do that. I've also read about leaving fuel in it all the time and how that can eat/break things down. What's a newbie like me supposed to do? :smile_big:


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## knu2xs (Jan 6, 2015)

As for the tank itself, the "general rule" is to drain it if its plastic and keep it full if its metal, which helps prevent rust inside.


I treat all of my gas, all season, primarily using Ethanol Shield, which, in addition to acting as a stabilizer, is supposed to help maintain the plastic & rubber components of a fuel system.


Ethanol Shield & made by BC3 Solutions who also offers a product called "Mechanic In A Bottle" which not only stabilizes fuel, it acts like Seafoam and cleans the system. I'll use Mechanic In A Bottle (M.I.B.), which has worked wonders for me, at the beginning of the season and then switch over to Ethanol Shield. Also, at the beginning of the season I'll siphon out last season's gas and replace with fresh fuel, treated with M.I.B. Last season's fuel goes into my van's gas tank. 


There are other good products out there and I use to use Seafoam (for years) but switched because Seafoam has a form of alcohol in it.


I never drain my systems and, to date, haven't had any fuel related issues. Knock on wood.........


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## 10953 (Sep 4, 2017)

i feel your saving trick is the gas you use and treat, today's grain additive fuels have a shelf life of a max of 30 days before they start breaking down and causing the dreaded carb issues.

i'm also a private pilot so my machines all have a steady diet of 101 Low lead aviation gas and never have had a issue, when i'm unable to get AV gas, i also besides gas treatments, add fogging oil to the fuel left in the tank, normally a shot glass full per gallon, i have personally never had a fuel/top end issue as the fogging oil tends to coat the insides of the tank and carb,

then i'm anal about my machines, i personally prefer to treat them for storage just as i do to my lake boat, and put them to bed the same way,


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## classiccat (Mar 1, 2014)

+1...you're on the right track using E0 fuel. 

You'll get as many opinions as we have members on what to do with the fuel...and they all seem to work! So here's another one 

I personally prefer my tanks dry and fog the inside of my metal tanks; I have OCD when it comes to fresh fuel. 

Regarding the carbs, You'd be surprised how much is left in there after she stalls out; I always drop the bowl to get rid of any fuel remnants as well as rinse the fuel line with seafoam (while the bowl is still off).


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## 69800 (Oct 4, 2017)

I hope powershift is not running constantly on 100 low lead aviation gas. I do put it in all of my machines and cycles for storage because it will not go bad. BUT one year I left it in my motorcycle and took if for a drive the next spring. (started right up of course) But after riding a 50 miles I say that the inside of my tail pipe was turning pure WHITE! This made me think that maybe running on 100LL might not be a good idea. Also I know its a very dry fuel so best to put a little oil in with the gas for storage.


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## tdipaul (Jul 11, 2015)

classiccat said:


> +1...you're on the right track using E0 fuel.
> 
> You'll get as many opinions as we have members on what to do with the fuel...and they all seem to work! So here's another one
> 
> ...


+1 on the drain and fog method. 

Draining the tank and the carb on a snowblower is very easy and eliminates all worries. 

Its not as if its a semi truck or powerboat and hundreds of gallons to deal with

.


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## 10953 (Sep 4, 2017)

69800 said:


> I hope powershift is not running constantly on 100 low lead aviation gas. I do put it in all of my machines and cycles for storage because it will not go bad. BUT one year I left it in my motorcycle and took if for a drive the next spring. (started right up of course) But after riding a 50 miles I say that the inside of my tail pipe was turning pure WHITE! This made me think that maybe running on 100LL might not be a good idea. Also I know its a very dry fuel so best to put a little oil in with the gas for storage.


i am running 101 av all the time .no oil added ,yes my exhaust pipes are white. but my plugs a nice proper brown, av fuel doesn't break down like pump gas and burns way cleaner in the head, some of my machines have well over 1000 hours on them like my 5 old original cub cadet tractors


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## UNDERTAKER (Dec 30, 2013)

*I run the fuel out on the shut off and drain the tanks bone dry in zee off season. never ever had a problem.k:k:k:k:k:*


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## rfw1953 (Oct 11, 2017)

Our summers are pretty short. We had one last 5" storm this past May. It's not Oct 21, and we've already had two small storms of 8" and 2". Didn't get the SB out for either, but it won't be long until things start dialing up. That said, I run the fuel out at the shut off valve, but haven't thought about dropping the carb bowl and draining it as well. That's a good idea that I will use next season. I don't drain the tank, but I do keep it full. I only use 91 Octane E0 gas. So far so good. I do the same in my Harley that sits all winter. I probably had my last ride of the season Thursday. May get in a few more, but the ride was colder than I prefer.


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## buffettck (Jan 4, 2017)

rfw1953 said:


> Our summers are pretty short. We had one last 5" storm this past May. It's not Oct 21, and we've already had two small storms of 8" and 2". Didn't get the SB out for either, but it won't be long until things start dialing up. That said, I run the fuel out at the shut off valve, but haven't thought about dropping the carb bowl and draining it as well. That's a good idea that I will use next season. I don't drain the tank, but I do keep it full. I only use 91 Octane E0 gas. So far so good. I do the same in my Harley that sits all winter. I probably had my last ride of the season Thursday. May get in a few more, but the ride was colder than I prefer.


If you're using E0 gas as I do (even better if treated), dropping the bowl isn't needed IMO. I've always just run stuff until it quits with the fuel valve shut off and never had a problem starting things back up the next season. Been doing that for many years. Now, if a machine has a bowl drain screw like my Honda snowblower and generator do, I'll drain the bowl. But my Honda mower and other off brand generator don't have bowl drain screws/lines. Still never a problem starting them up after months of sitting unused.

I wish I had your short summers here next door in Utah and we're pretty far north. This year's actual summer (end of June until end of September) was long, hot and more humid than I like. I start mowing at the end of March and do it almost weekly until well into November. Come this time of year, the mower is a leaf vacuum more than anything else. Blow everything out into the middle of the yard and mow/bag it all up. Holy cow, with the leaves. We didn't have it this bad when we lived in New England! LOL


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## Cardo111 (Feb 16, 2015)

I used to drain the tank now I prefer leaving it full using gas treated with Marine Stabil or Star Tron. I run it for a minute or two shut off the fuel switch and when it stalls I'm done.


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## buffettck (Jan 4, 2017)

87 powershift said:


> i feel your saving trick is the gas you use and treat, today's grain additive fuels have a shelf life of a max of 30 days before they start breaking down and causing the dreaded carb issues.


Yes, I realize all that which is exactly why I always run treated 100% pure gas. I've never had any fuel related reliability issues. My question was about whether or not leaving the tank full in the off season would damage components or not.


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## knu2xs (Jan 6, 2015)

buffettck said:


> Yes, I realize all that which is exactly why I always run treated 100% pure gas. I've never had any fuel related reliability issues. My question was about whether or not leaving the tank full in the off season would damage components or not.


 
I can't answer your specific question but will pass on what a member here, or over on the Lawnmower forum, posted.


He said that he had been a small engine service tech for years and posted some photos of carbs that had a white powder-like substance in them that he said was due to people draining their systems. It was the residue left behind after the fuel dried out.


He claimed that by draining the fuel system regularly, something he didn't do and didn't recommend, that the left over residue can build up in the system and clog things up. If I remember correctly his post was on a thread where members were recommending others use the fuel shut off valve every time they were finished using their equipment so that isn't the same as draining it at the end of season, or leaving it full, but it does relate somewhat so I thought I would pass it along. For what it may be worth.........


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## 10953 (Sep 4, 2017)

if you re find that thread please post it for all to see.

this may help in the main time, See Ethanol Damage UP CLOSE! | The Blog at Jacks Small Engines

and https://www.jackssmallengines.com/diy/how-to-properly-use-ethanol-fuel-in-power-equipment/
note number 6 
Long-Term Storage: Completely drain the fuel tank and run the unit dry. Also drain the carburetor bowl where some left over gas will collect.


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## 10953 (Sep 4, 2017)

buffettck said:


> Yes, I realize all that which is exactly why I always run treated 100% pure gas. I've never had any fuel related reliability issues. My question was about whether or not leaving the tank full in the off season would damage components or not.


personally i have suffered from damaging parts from off season, i have one machine, a CC sp walk behind 6 hp kawaski ohv. no factory installed gas shut off valve. dumbly one year due to major spine surgery i just stuck it in the tool shed doing nothing, 
the damage done was to the soft rubber like seat in the carb inlet for the float needle, the always on pressure caused the seat to wear there by causing the motor to flood to he point of hydro locking. the dealer taking it apart,showed me it had what is shown in the above link, when fixing it asked did you treat the fuel and run it dry? repair a new carb, and hour labor, ouch! kawasaki carb alone $105.00 

is it best to run dry before storing? each person has their own ways, personally i keep going with how i store my lake boat's 454 io. that gets e10 ,


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## buffettck (Jan 4, 2017)

87 powershift said:


> if you re find that thread please post it for all to see.
> 
> this may help in the main time, See Ethanol Damage UP CLOSE! | The Blog at Jacks Small Engines
> 
> ...


Good thing I don't use anything with ethanol in all of my small air cooled engines. :smile2:


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## 10953 (Sep 4, 2017)

funny we are talking about leaving e 10 gas in a tank over a long storage time.
just this am a buddy comes to my house with his 5 hp tech powered snow blower, saying it won't start, he left gas in it since last feb, pulling the fuel hose off, i dropped about a 1/2 tank of water.gas mix out when it drained, that the ethanol absorbed 

i dropped the bowl down, and found a white soft jello like form inside it. that fell out when dropped over, the float needle was stuck up in the seat area, low speed port plugged solid, almost striped the high speed jet trying to get it off to drop the bowl, the metal welsh plug rotted though in 2 spots, lucky for him i had a good used one in stock at home to help 
sorry these shots are cell phone photo's with poor lighting but do give a good idea of why it is best to drain fully before parking a


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## 10953 (Sep 4, 2017)

PS

in photo 3 just to the left of the thread for the main jet you can just make out the plugged low speed pickup port riser


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## 69800 (Oct 4, 2017)

I must retract my statement about using 100LL avgas. I just took the time and spent an hour on the net reading about all of the folks who have been using it in their small engines for thousands of hours with absolutly no problems with the exception of a little bit of lead deposts on spark plugs after a lot of usage. I do know avgas stores for years without having to add stabilizers. I have decided to fill my small engine tanks before off season so the fire right up the next year but I will probably just use non ethanol gas during the season. Some engines are tough to drain the float bowls and I believe turning off the gas and running them until the quit does not mean the float bowls is totaly empty.


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## 10953 (Sep 4, 2017)

no it won't there will be some left ,you will after running the carb dry, need to drop the bowl down, normally just one bolt on the bottom as some well remain drop it wipe it out reinstall , 
as to av gas the small amount of lead build up is very minor when compared to leaded gas of days long gone,


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## rfw1953 (Oct 11, 2017)

buffettck said:


> If you're using E0 gas as I do (even better if treated), dropping the bowl isn't needed IMO. I've always just run stuff until it quits with the fuel valve shut off and never had a problem starting things back up the next season. Been doing that for many years. Now, if a machine has a bowl drain screw like my Honda snowblower and generator do, I'll drain the bowl. But my Honda mower and other off brand generator don't have bowl drain screws/lines. Still never a problem starting them up after months of sitting unused.



Yeah, that's exactly what I have been doing as well...So far so good...Haven't had any issues. Thank you for the reply.


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## buffettck (Jan 4, 2017)

69800 said:


> I do know avgas stores for years without having to add stabilizers. I have decided to fill my small engine tanks before off season so the fire right up the next year but I will probably just use non ethanol gas during the season.


Just use cheaper non-ethanol gas 100% of the time. AVGAS isn't needed. The reason it stores for years isn't magically because it's AVGAS, rather, it's because it's 100% gas with no ethanol.


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## 10953 (Sep 4, 2017)

buffettck said:


> Just use cheaper non-ethanol gas 100% of the time. AVGAS isn't needed. The reason it stores for years isn't magically because it's AVGAS, rather, it's because it's 100% gas with no ethanol.


yes it is better, BUT one needs to understand it E0 is not available in every state , new jersey NOPE!! those7 listed in puregas are 3 air ports the rest sell very costly race gas, E0 from a pump is illegal here .


how many people can afford to pay $10.00 and up a gallon for pre canned e 0 in a box store or race gas to run in a small engine powered machine? or drive to another state for who knows how many miles to get pure gas, how many can get to a race track or drag strip for race gas?


the average street joe living in a most burn E state is stuck, those need to heed the words of their local small engine shop, about off season storage .


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## DuffyJr (Oct 15, 2015)

I feel very lucky having access to E0 at reasonable prices and contribute that to never having any carb issues in any of the OPE I have owned for 30+ years. 

If I didn't have access to E0 and had to use E10 I would start using TruFuel at the end of the season for a couple tanks to make sure all the E10 was gone. This has to be cheaper and less frustrating than dealing with OPE that wont start. 

I've been told by several small engine mechanics not to drain the carb that it was harder on them than letting them sit full of fuel as long as E0 and sta-bil were used. I don't even bother topping off the tanks at the end of the season thinking that the sooner I get fresh fuel in it at the start of the season the better. Call me lucky I guess.


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## Snowbelt_subie (Dec 20, 2016)

E0 is not safe from breaking down but it is better then normal fuels. there are 2 options i have done both and had good luck with both options.

1. drain all gas out of the tank and carb for storage.

2. leave all gas in the carb and tank but treat the gas ( i use sea foam in all my gas) 


pretty cool breakdown on E0 gas below

https://seafoamsales.com/a-quick-visual-lesson-on-gasoline/


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## Doylee4693 (Oct 6, 2017)

I havent read other comments but if its a plastic tank I drain it, if its metal I fill it top with gas treated with fuel stabilizer to keep water out. This will always work.


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## Paulie139 (Sep 25, 2017)

87 powershift said:


> yes it is better, BUT one needs to understand it E0 is not available in every state , new jersey NOPE!! E0 from a pump is illegal here.



Really!! That’s amazing to me. Is there any reasoning that the state of NJ gives?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## slybarman (Nov 28, 2016)

Can't get any within an hour or two of where I am in Maryland either. Have to go to the Eastern shore.

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## 10953 (Sep 4, 2017)

Paulie139 said:


> Really!! That’s amazing to me. Is there any reasoning that the state of NJ gives?
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


pollution laws, 

to boot we are going E15 also. talk about more problems


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## buffettck (Jan 4, 2017)

Doylee4693 said:


> I havent read other comments but if its a plastic tank I drain it, if its metal I fill it top with gas treated with fuel stabilizer to keep water out. This will always work.


Maybe. I've read instances where plastic tanks have cracked when they were stored empty because they dried out. It's one thing when a plastic tank is brand new and will last in the box basically forever, but it's different after a season or three of being exposed (i.e. "seasoned") to fuel and then put up dry for months on end.

I also think about all those years I lived in Florida where I basically had to mow all year long with maybe a 6-8 week break at the most. As far as I remember, everything had plastic tanks, too. Those mowers and other lawn equipment had gas in them 24/7/365 and I never had a problem. A lot of other people did, including all the lawn crews. I don't see those guys draining gas from all those units just to put it back in a very short time later.


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## buffettck (Jan 4, 2017)

DuffyJr said:


> I feel very lucky having access to E0 at reasonable prices and contribute that to never having any carb issues in any of the OPE I have owned for 30+ years.


Me, too. I just re-filled the "big" gas can (10 gallons) with E0 at $2.90/gal. Since I don't even use 10 gallons in a full year, that equates to only about six bucks more at most than if I used the crappy corn squeezins gas since regular is about $2.30/gal here right now. Well worth it.


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## buffettck (Jan 4, 2017)

87 powershift said:


> yes it is better, BUT one needs to understand it E0 is not available in every state , new jersey NOPE!! those7 listed in puregas are 3 air ports the rest sell very costly race gas, E0 from a pump is illegal here .


Everything's illegal in Joisey. You can't even pump your own gas of any grade into your car. Instead, some guy with a room temperature IQ has to do it 'cuz "jobs program". I don't know how anyone could live in such a nanny state. I know I couldn't. CT was far enough behind enemy lines as it was when we lived there. :icon-rolleyes:


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## buffettck (Jan 4, 2017)

Snowbelt_subie said:


> E0 is not safe from breaking down but it is better then normal fuels. there are 2 options i have done both and had good luck with both options.
> 
> 1. drain all gas out of the tank and carb for storage.
> 
> ...


I call BS on that E0 "test". How were those test samples stored? E0 gas that's stored properly will keep for years and burn just fine when needed, even without being treated with stabilizer.


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## nwcove (Mar 2, 2015)

mine were always stored with whatever amount of treated with seafoam " no corn squeezins" fuel was left after the season was over. now i might need to drain fuel as the blowers will be stored in the service position for the off season.


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## dr bob (Dec 12, 2015)

My amateur take:

All the small gas-powered tools these days come with plastic tanks. These are blow-molded from HDHMW polyethylene, same stuff that's holding the fuel in your modern car. The tanks don't deteriorate from gas exposure ethanol or not, but not-modern fuel hoses and some old carb soft parts do. The water remaining in the bottom of the fuel will cause corrosion on metal parts exposed to the water for extended periods. Non-ethanol gas is less hygroscopic that E10. Remember that residual heat from the the stopped engine will boil off the fuel fractions before the water, leaving the water fraction in the float bowl. 

For the yard toys, I drain the tank and the carburetor after running out as much as I can with the fuel valve shut off. In between uses I keep the tank full but still run out the carb with fuel shut off before putting it away during the season. I put storage additive (sta-bil) in every fuel can when it's filled. Our winter pump premium is ethanol-free

I also fog the cylinder prior to storage, after a few squirts of ATF to drain down into the rings. Plug out and a few pulls on teh rope when the new season is looming will clear anything left in there. Then plug back in, fresh treated fuel in the tank, and a short test run. Did this yesterday. Last year the engine started as I was pulling the piston up to TDC prepping for a full start pull. This year it waited until the first full pull. I let it come up to temperature with no load on it, ran the auger and drive wheels listening for funny noises, then closed teh fuel valve and let it run slow until the carb ran out. It's back in it's little workshop palace storage location, cleaned (dusted and waxed again) and ready for the season.

Bring on winter! Does anybody else believe that winter is a lot less severe when things are ready to go? Not last year here for sure. Here's hoping this winter is closer to "average", whatever that is.


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## buffettck (Jan 4, 2017)

nwcove said:


> mine were always stored with whatever amount of treated with seafoam " no corn squeezins" fuel was left after the season was over. now i might need to drain fuel as the blowers will be stored in the service position for the off season.


What's the "service position" and how was that different from previous storage with fuel left in it?


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## Bob E (Jun 9, 2014)

buffettck said:


> What's the "service position" and how was that different from previous storage with fuel left in it?


Tipped forward on the bucket.


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## buffettck (Jan 4, 2017)

Bob E said:


> Tipped forward on the bucket.


Ah, okay. Got it. Yes, that is a radically different way to store it. I'm guessing it's for saving floor space?


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## 10953 (Sep 4, 2017)

Snowbelt_subie said:


> E0 is not safe from breaking down but it is better then normal fuels. there are 2 options i have done both and had good luck with both options.
> 
> 1. drain all gas out of the tank and carb for storage.
> 
> ...


good and solid point!
NO fuel even av and diesel will start to break down over time. diesel will start to grow a green mold like that clogs the fuel filters, e 0 and av do have a longer shelf life , but gas is gas, at some point it dose break down,
that's pretty much why the engine makers state in their OM's, keep no more then what can be used in 30 days, and keep it tightly sealed, i think we can admit it's simply a cheap/free safety net.if it's not stale the machine should be fine. 


the plastic tank cracking post
personally I've never seen that happen, my 624 power shift was new on vets day 1987, it's tank was dry in the off season for 30 years, still looks like new inside as is my 1997 824's tank. what i have seen around me is people who left gas in lawn mowers darning the off season ,had the E10 absorb moister to such a point there was enough to freeze in the winter,then i found ice cracked/broken tanks.


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## Snowbelt_subie (Dec 20, 2016)

buffettck said:


> I call BS on that E0 "test". How were those test samples stored? E0 gas that's stored properly will keep for years and burn just fine when needed, even without being treated with stabilizer.


sorry its true i used to work in the boating industry and most marine pumps have ethanol free gas and you wouldn't have believed all the fuel related problems that would come into the shop. people running E0 gas the entire boats life but let it sit for 14-16 months nothing will save you.

especially with short boating season in the north its not uncommon for the fuel to sit in tanks of boats for 1 to 1.5 years. 

the best option is is E0 but also with a fuel treatment. it might be able to save you with that amount of time but truthfully nothing probably will. gas does and will go bad no matter what type.


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## 10953 (Sep 4, 2017)

buffettck said:


> Everything's illegal in Joisey. You can't even pump your own gas of any grade into your car. Instead, some guy with a room temperature IQ has to do it 'cuz "jobs program". I don't know how anyone could live in such a nanny state. I know I couldn't. CT was far enough behind enemy lines as it was when we lived there. :icon-rolleyes:


pm sent on subject


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## 10953 (Sep 4, 2017)

Snowbelt_subie said:


> sorry its true i used to work in the boating industry and most marine pumps have ethanol free gas and you wouldn't have believed all the fuel related problems that would come into the shop. people running E0 gas the entire boats life but let it sit for 14-16 months nothing will save you.
> 
> especially with short boating season in the north its not uncommon for the fuel to sit in tanks of boats for 1 to 1.5 years.
> 
> the best option is is E0 but also with a fuel treatment. it might be able to save you with that amount of time but truthfully nothing probably will. gas does and will go bad no matter what type.


then you can remember when e10 first came out and all the problems with melted fiberglass tanks.


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## thool (Jul 25, 2016)

Here in upstate NY between the last spring snowfall and the first fall snowfall, the temperatures and the humidity swings all over the place. No matter how well I treated the gas, I'm afraid the moisture would cause issues. For my piece of mind, I do this:

Drain the gas tank.
Run the engine with what's left in the bowl.
As it sputters, fog the carb until it stalls.
Remove the bowl, clean the carb with carb cleaner.
Remove spark plug, fog cylinder, replace plug hand tight.
Change the oil while I'm at it!

In the fall, I clean the carb once more...still get varnish! Reassemble everything, add E0 gas with a splash of Heet, and run it. This is on a 1977 vintage yard man with an HM80. Its hibernation period is early May to mid-November.


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## drmerdp (Feb 9, 2014)

thool said:


> Here in upstate NY between the last spring snowfall and the first fall snowfall, the temperatures and the humidity swings all over the place. No matter how well I treated the gas, I'm afraid the moisture would cause issues. For my piece of mind, I do this:
> 
> Drain the gas tank.
> Run the engine with what's left in the bowl.
> ...


You nailed it. No better system For storage, that’s a recipe for storing for years. Though I can add one little detail.  

Pull engine over until Bottom Dead Center. Keeps the valves closed and piston at the bottom of its stroke further protecting the cylinder bore.


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## buffettck (Jan 4, 2017)

drmerdp said:


> You nailed it. No better system For storage, that’s a recipe for storing for years. Though I can add one little detail.
> 
> *Pull engine over until Bottom Dead Center.* Keeps the valves closed and piston at the bottom of its stroke further protecting the cylinder bore.


Make that TOP dead center. :wink2:


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## drmerdp (Feb 9, 2014)

buffettck said:


> Make that TOP dead center. :wink2:


I’m glad someone said that!

I’ve wondered why people feel TDC is better. That leaves the lower portion of the bore open to outside air through the crankcase ventilation system. If the cylinder was not fogged and the piston a BDC with the valves closed, then wouldn’t that be the most inert environment for the cylinder bore. Which is the most crucial item we are protecting during long term storage. 

If it was fogged, then BDC or TDC doesn’t matter as many much.

Thoughts?

I’ve done it both ways, but I tend to over think things now and then.


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## thool (Jul 25, 2016)

drmerdp said:


> I’m glad someone said that!
> 
> I’ve wondered why people feel TDC is better. That leaves the lower portion of the bore open to outside air through the crankcase ventilation system. If the cylinder was not fogged and the piston a BDC with the valves closed, then wouldn’t that be the most inert environment for the cylinder bore. Which is the most crucial item we are protecting during long term storage.
> 
> ...


I fog through the carb and then fog through the spark plug hole, give the recoil starter a slow pull, then tighten the spark plug. I figure this coats the cylinder wall well enough, and don't care about the piston position.

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## 10953 (Sep 4, 2017)

drmerdp said:


> I’m glad someone said that!
> 
> I’ve wondered why people feel TDC is better. That leaves the lower portion of the bore open to outside air through the crankcase ventilation system. If the cylinder was not fogged and the piston a BDC with the valves closed, then wouldn’t that be the most inert environment for the cylinder bore. Which is the most crucial item we are protecting during long term storage.
> 
> ...


because at TDC both valves are closed BDC valves are opening or closing allowing rust to form on the stem and seat which could also lead to a weakened valve spring if not with all these clones out a broken spring


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## drmerdp (Feb 9, 2014)

87 powershift said:


> because at TDC both valves are closed BDC valves are opening or closing allowing rust to form on the stem and seat which could also lead to a weakened valve spring if not with all these clones out a broken spring


My mistake, I failed to accurately describe what I was thinking.

Im thinking BDC of the compression stroke. Where the intake valve has already closed and the piston is at it lowest point in the cylinder. My idea is to keep the piston low to seal off the bore from the vented crankcase. 

On a degree wheel BDC is 180o from TDC where valves are certainly opening. 

Id hate to convolute an otherwise straight forward concept of placing the engine at TDC which keeps both valves closed and is Super Easy to identify.


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## buffettck (Jan 4, 2017)

87 powershift said:


> because at TDC both valves are closed BDC valves are opening or closing allowing rust to form on the stem and seat which could also lead to a weakened valve spring if not with all these clones out a broken spring


Exactly and that's why my Honda snow blower, lawn manual and generators say to do for longer term storage.


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## 10953 (Sep 4, 2017)

buffettck said:


> Exactly and that's why my Honda snow blower, lawn manual and generators say to do for longer term storage.


hear that

to a layman , a lot don't understand how a 4 stroke engine works, enough to understand the concept of camshaft valve overlap during the exhaust/to intake cycle where a piston is at the other tdc .
there is 2 tdc's only 1 is compression/power where both valves are closed

it's easy to park a single cylinder at tdc with it fogged, not so with twins and up. 
my personal twins i fog them but also use a marine product named "store and start"in the undrainable tanks. it is a combo of stabilizer and fogging oil, works great as it coats the inside of the steel tanks and inside of the carb bowl and passages plus leaves a film on the valves and cylinders. 


every one has their own tricks they use , some are like the factory would want,others have a faster old school way. IMM as long as it works, better then joe blow, who stops using it and parks it .then the finds the next time he has problems like my neighbor last weekend, cost him a carb.


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## buffettck (Jan 4, 2017)

87 powershift said:


> it's easy to park a single cylinder at tdc with it fogged, not so with twins and up.


Well, yeah. That's why I didn't go there. It's impossible to have multi-cylinder engines with pistons all at TDC at the same time. Well, running ones, that is... If that does actually happen, that engine had a very BAD day. :surprise:


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## Snowbelt_subie (Dec 20, 2016)

man all this seems like over kill to me. sometimes i think us as the general public overthink different things too much to try to be perfect.

i bought an HS55 this year no joke the guy said it had the same gas in it for over 2 years. Stored in a non heated garage in northeast ohio. He didn't try to start it because he was sure it wouldn't start.....i convinced him to try and it started on the first pull.

so why do we go to great lengths so be safe when apparently it doesnt matter :wink2:


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## buffettck (Jan 4, 2017)

87 powershift said:


> i fog them but also use a marine product named "store and start"in the undrainable tanks.


What's an "undrainable tank"? If it has a fuel line, it can be drained. When I need to empty a tank, I don't pull any lines and just empty it out the filler neck into a gas can with a siphon tube/bulb thing. Simple, quick and it works great. All tanks can always be drained somehow.


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