# HS724TA dumped it's tranny fluid on the floor



## Joefischer

Hi All... First post here, great site, been a lurker for awhile. I bought this Honda HS724TA last winter when my 1984 Montgomery Ward Track Drive unit died, and it's been so far a good unit.

Today we got hit with about 10 inches of snow, fire up the Honda (which takes 3-5 pulls every time...) and put the transmission in N and hold the handle for 10-20 seconds and proceed to put it in R... goes no where. Key off and find the reservoir is empty, lift the back of the unit and see fluid underneath it.

I haven't gotten under it yet to see where its leaking from but question is... is this common? What would be the typical spots to check? And the big question is how do I refill it? I found a post that the 828 requires disassemble of most of the unit to properly refill... Please tell me the 724 is different in some way?


Thanks guys!!

Joe in MinneSnowa


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## db9938

I'd start with a visual inspection of the reservoir hose. I've looked over the parts schematic, and it seems like it may be the place I'd start with. If you purchased this lat year, is it new or "new to you?"

And I might also throw in there, a carb cleaning.


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## Joefischer

It's new to me. The guy I bought it from said it was only a few years old...


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## Kiss4aFrog

_*I haven't gotten under it yet to see where its leaking from but question is... is this common?*_

No, it's not common for the hydrostatic fluid to dump out of the unit. Even a Honda can break and it could be a broken hydrostatic drive case $$$$$ or a cracked hose $. You need to clean it up and try to find out where it's leaking from or take it in and have it inspected.

If you don't have the manual maybe this will help.
http://cdn.powerequipment.honda.com/pe/pdf/manuals/00X317677240.pdf


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## db9938

Ehh, I'd look around "under the hood" to see if it is the hose or the hydro unit. I would hate to think that it is the hydro unit, because of the labor involved in repairing it. 

I'd try to wipe it down a much as possible to determine the source, and might even use a telescoping inspection mirror to look into areas that I could not see from jut opening the pan up.


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## Joefischer

Alright so I was able to stand the snowblower up a little and take the bottom plate off and took a look around. It appears the axle seal worked its way loose. Looks like it's part # 51 on the exploded view. Think I can just push it back into place w/ a screw driver or does this equal HS724TA Rebuild project?


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## superedge88

Joefischer said:


> Hi All... First post here, great site, been a lurker for awhile. I bought this Honda HS724TA last winter when my 1984 Montgomery Ward Track Drive unit died, and it's been so far a good unit.
> 
> Today we got hit with about 10 inches of snow, fire up the Honda (which takes 3-5 pulls every time...) and put the transmission in N and hold the handle for 10-20 seconds and proceed to put it in R... goes no where. Key off and find the reservoir is empty, lift the back of the unit and see fluid underneath it.
> 
> I haven't gotten under it yet to see where its leaking from but question is... is this common? What would be the typical spots to check? And the big question is how do I refill it? I found a post that the 828 requires disassemble of most of the unit to properly refill... Please tell me the 724 is different in some way?
> 
> 
> Thanks guys!!
> 
> Joe in MinneSnowa


The fact that it starts in 3-5 pulls tells me that it hasn't been well cared for by the previous owner. My honda starts on the first pull every time, even in temperatures well below zero. Good luck on the fix, this summer may be time for a complete service of the snowblower.


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## Kiss4aFrog

Screwdriver would not be my first choice. You want something that will push the seal with as much contact surface and will keep the seal from bending or warping. You'd also want to get it as clean and free from hyd fluid as you could.

I'd look over the diagram and see if there is a vent. I have no clue if there is one but if there is make sure it's not clogged. On a riding tractor the hudro units get warm and if there is pressure from heat it might be what caused the seal to pop out. That's just a guess, I don't have a Honda but I've worked on my riders hydros.

If you chose to try and push this one back in you should also check the other side to see if it's still properly seated or starting to work it's way out too.


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## Joefischer

The right side looks to be properly seated whereas the left side appears to have worked its way out. 

My concern is that if I just push the axle seal back into place, what's to prevent it from working its way off again.

Also, what would be the proper way of re-filling the transmission?


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## sr71

Here's a thread on refilling the tranny. 

http://www.snowblowerforum.com/forum/honda-snowblowers/4322-hs828-hydro-fluid-change.html


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## db9938

I know that this suggestion may add to the price of the repair, but if you follow the proper refill and bleed procedure, then you will have to remove the transmission anyhow, so why not replace all of the seals while you have it that far torn down. You could think of it as insurance for the next fifteen to twenty five years.

Such as #49 and #51 on both sides. Just a thought.


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## Kiss4aFrog

If time permits that would be the way to go. Replace both seals and purge the system. Or knock the seal in for now and do it properly when it's warmer and hope it makes it through the next few snows.


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## Joefischer

My fear about just knocking the seal back in is I'll have air in the transmission and won't be able to properly bleed the system.


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## db9938

You are going to have that regardless. You are going to have to bleed it after the seal failure, for the transmission to work correctly.


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## Joefischer

And to properly bleed the transmission I'll need to basically disassemble the entire snowblower, which means I might as well replace seals & bearings that I am taking apart... Right?


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## [email protected]

Joefischer said:


> It's new to me. The guy I bought it from said it was only a few years old...


Share the frame serial number with me (on the rear of the frame); that model has a 3-year warranty, so you may have a little left. 

One the source of the leak is found, it is a big project to properly fill and properly bleed the HST. If you want to DIY, strongly suggest a shop manual. Honda has them on ebay and amazon...search "Honda HS724 Shop Manual" I think about $39, free shipping....


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## Joefischer

SZBE-1012641

Can you give me a rough date range of when this was built?


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## Joefischer

Shop manual has been ordered. Basement room has been cleaned for dis-assembly process... Going to be bringing the snow blower down tonight.


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## [email protected]

Joefischer said:


> SZBE-1012641
> 
> Can you give me a rough date range of when this was built?


My records don't indicate actual build dates, and Honda snowblowers don't have model years like cars. They have running changes, and what is called a K-number that increments with changes. A model may be built for many years with no changes, and some models change every 18 months (lawn mowers, for example).

Anyway, that serial number was originally wholesaled from Honda to a dealer in Blaine, MN, on July 8, 2002, and was sold at retail to a customer in Blaine on November 7, 2002. The original 2-warranty has of course expired.

Based on those dates, I'd bet the unit was actually manufactured in 2000-2001. Depending on how snow (and snowblower sales) were that year, warehouses can empty out or some units will carry over to next year. 

You are on the right track by getting a shop manual; worth every nickel when are attempting a significant repair like this.


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## Joefischer

Thank you for that info, I really appreciate it Robert. 

I have attached a few photos of the current status. I will await the manual for the next steps.


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## db9938

You know, while you have the engine on the bench, it would be really easy to do a tune up and maybe an oil change. 

Just a Suggestion.

From what you described as being neglected by the previous owner, it looks to be in pretty good shape.


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## Joefischer

It still has the bar code on the gas tank. The augers need some work, I think there is a bearing going out that I'll take a look at now that its all apart.


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## db9938

It really looks as though it may have seen very little use. Maybe used a couple times and put away and forgotten. And the dirt, that could just be dust that naturally happens in a garage. 

The fact that a seal fell out, makes me wonder if it sat, and corrosion formed around the axle and spun the seal out. Just a theory.


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## Joefischer

Getting there on the disassembly. I did notice the transmission is loose? Shouldn't this be tight? It rocks up and down...

Here is a photo from last night on my progress...


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## db9938

I would suspect that it is not supposed to be. And if it were, then it would be mounted with isolation style mounts. But even then, I do not know how you would ever get proper belt tension. 

I am just speculating here though, as I don't have this machine nor the manuals.


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## Joefischer

Sorry for the huge photo! I'll resize that. I'm going to work on getting the rest apart tonight so I can evaluate what I need to order. 

I have a feeling the transmission shouldn't move at all, but I will confirm once I get it apart.


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## Joefischer

Alright guys! Transmission is free... It's the top mounting plate that is loose but almost looks like it should be this way, [email protected] would you be able to confirm this? Take a look at the photo.


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## db9938

I am going to go out on a limb here and say that the parts diagram would lead me to believe that the top mounting bracket holes are not supposed to look like that. Moreover, it may appear that there are some missing parts. 










Specifically # 60, 39, and 57. I could be wrong, and just not see them in the pics.


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## Joefischer

Those parts are there and bolted tightly together.


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## db9938

Man, I hate to admit when I have met my mechanical threshold, but for the life of me I can not see where Honda was going with a mounting plate that uses the frame bolts as the hinge points. I could be way off here, and without seeing the entire picture, and how it dissembled I am just not understanding the engineering. 

That said, I'd pursue the seals as the source of the leak.

By chance, could the previous owner have too much fluid, and the axle seals were the weakest bond in the sealed system?


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## dbert

db9938 said:


> I am going to go out on a limb here and say that the parts diagram would lead me to believe that the top mounting bracket holes are not supposed to look like that. Moreover, it may appear that there are some missing parts.
> 
> 
> Specifically # 60, 39, and 57. I could be wrong, and just not see them in the pics.


I cant tell what exactly is missing, but the bolts are backwards. In other words we are seeing nuts on the forward side vs the bolt head.


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## [email protected]

A few pages from the shop manual might help here: (note header says "HS828" but pages, parts, pictures, etc. are the same for HS724.


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## db9938

dbert said:


> I cant tell what exactly is missing, but the bolts are backwards. In other words we are seeing nuts on the forward side vs the bolt head.


You are correct. My initial comment on potentially missing hardware came from the gap between the plate and the transmission. I would have suspected that the wave washers would have been shock absorption/suspension of that unit. I could not tell from the picture, if it was present. Just could not see it from the angle of the pic. The OP says its there, its there.

I just would not have thought that the plate would have rested on the transmission, while sitting on the bench. If the wave washers are a absorption/suspension design, then I would have also suspected a certain amount of pre-load. Meaning that it would not actually rest on the case, as it appears in the picture.


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## dbert

Then again...it appears there is conflicting information on which way the bolt is installed. It does appear there is supposed to be some collar around the fastener to fill the larger hole in the plate.


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## db9938

dbert said:


> Then again...it appears there is conflicting information on which way the bolt is installed. It does appear there is supposed to be some collar around the fastener to fill the larger hole in the plate.


I'm not sure that in this application it would matter, as long as the other parts are working as should. 

Could the mounting holes of the plate, be wobbled or elongated?

That could give it the play to lay on the down like that, and defeating the purpose the spring washers. This could induce the play into the system that allows the belt to slip. 

Just a thought.


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## Joefischer

I have a feeling the transmission plate has worn. Makes me wonder if that's what caused the seal to rock its way out? It also looks like I have all the pieces for the bolt assembly as well.

I've attached a few more pictures.


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## dbert

> I have a feeling the transmission plate has worn. Makes me wonder if that's what caused the seal to rock its way out? It also looks like I have all the pieces for the bolt assembly as well.


Agreed. Did the movment allowed by the wollard holes place stress on the shaft seal, or is something else causing the wear/movement of the transmission to mount attachment?


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## db9938

dbert said:


> Agreed. Did the movment allowed by the wollard holes place stress on the shaft seal, or is something else causing the wear/movement of the transmission to mount attachment?


Eww, I hope you are wrong for his sake. Excessive lateral play, may mean bearing wear.

It seems as though through the schematic, that it might be replaceable without cracking the case open, but there are no guarantees.

Pic#2- that hole looks out of round, not sure if that is within factory spec.

Pic#3- is the spring washer being pressed into the case by the collar?


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## Joefischer

No the collar is loose. I have a feeling the hole for the transmission plate is supposed to be about the size of the collar and for whatever reason it has worn itself a much bigger hole. 

I think I'm going to order the axle seal that worked its way loose (and the other side as well) a couple of bearings (in the auger unit) and the transmission plate and start the reassembly process.


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## db9938

Well, I hope that I am not suggesting that you order more that what you need. Please, take it for what it is, arm-chair quarterback advice. Just trying to help.


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## Joefischer

It just doesn't make any sense that there should be that much slop in that transmission mount.


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## db9938

I agree, but this may also be evidence of wear.

I would suspect that the collars are supposed to just slide into the mounting holes. How much lateral movement does it have now?


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## Thump_rrr

Checkout the video in post #32 on the following thread.
http://www.snowblowerforum.com/forum/honda-snowblowers/8801-just-got-624-have-some-questinos-4.html

It shows the transmission moving quite a bit.

There are other posts of the transmissions moving but I can't find them right now.
It seems to me that this may be in the design of the unit for some reason.

You can always ask if he did anything to correct his since the blower seems to run fine.


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## Joefischer

That's about as much movement as mine had...


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## Joefischer

Hello everyone! I have an update.

I just ordered parts...


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## Kiss4aFrog

You must be a big believer in "Just in time delivery"


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## db9938

Ha, don't feel bad Joe. My Honda is still apart too, mostly painted though.


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## Joefischer

I'm also a believer in... Oh Yeah I know how this goes back together.... 

Should be interesting.


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## db9938

Well, if you need any armchair quarterbacks, you know where to come.....

Take plenty of pictures.


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## Joefischer

I took some pictures on the dis-assembly, and I did buy the shop manual so I'm hoping with those two items... It should go back together decently.

Parts shipped today and USPS seems to think they will make it from Florida to MN by Monday.


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## tinter

Anyone else find it funny to buy snowblower parts from Florida?


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## db9938

Ironic, for sure.


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## Oracle

tinter said:


> Anyone else find it funny to buy snowblower parts from Florida?


A little bit, but they got me the Honda Paint that not even Honda Canada could..

those guys got my business...


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## Joefischer

And I ordered it from Boats.net which is also an oddity 

So I'm in the garage working on this and I'm following the steps to bleed the system and appears I have a problem. If calls out that when I am turning the pump the cross shaft should be turning... Mine is not. Suggestions?


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## Joefischer

Trying to get this put back together before the blizzard rolls in the next day or two.


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## Joefischer

Help...


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## Normex

Bump for helping him.


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## db9938

Sorry, been busy myself. Are you sure that the neutral valve spool is functioning the way that it is supposed to?

Does it feel as though the pulley is pumping?

Considering the title of the original post, does it have fluid? And could the leak also be coming from the neutral spool?


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## Joefischer

the transmission does have fluid in it, and i have double checked. It leaked out around an axle shaft seal so I have replaced those.

The pulley does have a little resistance so I have to assume it's pumping.

How can I confirm the neutral value spool?


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## db9938

My guess, as I do not have one of these units, would be to try both positions. A neutral valve should operate to either allow the fluid to flow past, or through a pump. The pump, as I remember from shop class, pushes fluid to another pump, or stator, depending on the configuration. 

This is why the neutral valve exists, to allow movement of the machine, so that the supply circuit is not in the loop. As such, this prevents a drive pump from pulling air into the system, and burning pump seals with the lack of lubrication when it is under power. 

That said, I could be completely off with this machine, as I am operating completely off of theory, and not practical experience with this setup. 

If this were mine, and others may disagree with this approach, I would attempt to move the axle by hand slowly while and the same time closing the neutral valve and spinning the pulley. In theory, this should purge the drive system of air. Just do it slowly.


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## JnC

Great info so far. 

I am in the process of putting together a hs624 myself, see thread below.

http://www.snowblowerforum.com/forum/honda-snowblowers/17850-new-guy-couple-hs624s.html

the transmission on the wheeled HS624 (one without the motor) is almost brand new and shows no signs of any leaks, where as the transmission on the tracked model has signs of leak all around it, even some gunky stuff below the transmission, a mix of old transmission fluid plus dirt. 

My intent was to take out the transmission from the track model and replace it with the newish one from the wheeled model. Once everything was taken off I realized that the drive teeth on the drive shaft are different size on both the transmissions, so this swap idea is a no go. 

I do want to fix the leaky transmission though and it seems like the seals are the root cause of the issue. I am looking forward to your thread to see how the whole thing goes, kindly take pictures as it would help a lot. 

One thing I'd like to mention, both the transmissions had play in the mounting plate, seemed odd at first but I guess its by design.


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## db9938

Any luck with this Joe?


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## JnC

So after close inspection and cleaning the transmission it seems like the fluid is weeping from the rubber seals around the main shaft, the pulley shaft and the small seal around the transmission engage/disengage lever. 

Due to the accumulation of fluid around the housing and the fluid making its way all the way to the lowest point on the transmission I cant really tell if the two main gaskets are also perished or not. 

Can any one chime in as to how involved would it be to change those gaskets? I dont want to open the housing only to find that I have made a part inside loose that can not be put back together. 

Anyone has access to shop manual to confirm whats involved in taking the main housing apart, may be torque specs on the main bolts as well? 

Any help would be greatly appreciated.


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## Kiss4aFrog

JnC, How about you start your own thread with your own problems and questions instead of trying to hijack this one ??


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## JnC

Kiss4aFrog said:


> JnC, How about you start your own thread with your own problems and questions instead of trying to hijack this one ??



Lol, fair enough.


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