# Removal of impeller assembly



## Sign216 (Feb 14, 2017)

I can't believe it, but I'm jammed up. My darling 1994 Techumseh side-valve snowblower is jammed, and upon taking it apart, it's stuck and won't budge.

I was blowing the driveway when the blades got jammed on a wayward lantern that the wife thought would dress up the house exterior. The lamp jammed the blades solid, and must have sheared a break-away pin (I hope) inside the gearbox.

Upon disassembly, I'm stuck. According to the modern shop manual (pre-2005 models instead of my 1994 machine) at this point the impeller assembly should remove from the housing. But it won't budge, as if there's something else holding the shaft in place.

Any ideas?

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/689/32074649263_7cc2eb01f3_m.jpg


----------



## skutflut (Oct 16, 2015)

From the photo, you need to remove that metal flange with the three bolts which holds the rear impeller bearing behind it. You also need to remove the bearings on the ends of the auger shafts, left and right. You might need a puller after that to remove the rear bearing from the impeller shaft but it might come off easy. While you're in there, check the condition of that bearing and replace it if necessary. 

Once all the parts are removed, the auger and impeller should slide out the front. Remember to mark things and take pictures as you disassemble it so you can put it back together the same way.

Can you give us a bit more info on the make and model of the snowblower and maybe a few more pictures in a larger, hi res format>


----------



## Sign216 (Feb 14, 2017)

I thought about that plate, although the shaft is going out the other way so it shouldn't hinder it.
I'll try it, as I've got no other answer.

The impeller brackets, left and right, are already off. The photo shows the back, on the engine side, and I think it should slide out the front with no problems. It's not clear what is hanging up on the shaft.

The snow blower is a MTD/Yard Machines with a Techumse side valve engine, from 1994.
I'll try to upload a better photo when I'm at my desktop. That's the best I can do a mobile, in the field.


----------



## skutflut (Oct 16, 2015)

Sign216 said:


> I thought about that plate, although the shaft is going out the other way so it shouldn't hinder it.
> I'll try it, as I've got no other answer.
> 
> The impeller brackets, left and right, are already off. The photo shows the back, on the engine side, and I think it should slide out the front with no problems. It's not clear what is hanging up on the shaft.
> ...


You might find a collar with set screws under that flange. Not real sure whats there without looking at a parts listing, which would require MTD model @ and possibly serial#


----------



## Dauntae (Nov 10, 2016)

I believe those three bolts hold two plates that hold the bearing in place, The plate you see has the nuts, the plate on the inside is behind the impeller with the studs you soo sticking out, You will also need to remove the auger bearings on both sides of the bucket and the whole thing should come out in one piece.


----------



## Saewoody (Nov 7, 2013)

Dauntae said:


> I believe those three bolts hold two plates that hold the bearing in place, The plate you see has the nuts, the plate on the inside is behind the impeller with the studs you soo sticking out, .



That should be correct. That is how my 924050 Ariens is designed. Just had it apart earlier today. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Sign216 (Feb 14, 2017)

I'll take off those three nuts and see what's behind the plate.

The model number is either TMO-3525302 or 315E610E088

The serial no. is 1J124B80197

If someone has access to a parts diagram I'd appreciate it.


----------



## Vermont007 (Mar 29, 2015)

It looks like that MTD machine was originally branded under the *Montgomery Ward* label.

Here's a link to a schematic on Partstree:

MTD TMO-3525302 (314-610E088) - Montgomery Ward Snow Thrower (1994) Auger Housing Assembly Diagram and Parts List | PartsTree.com


----------



## jtclays (Sep 24, 2010)

From Vermont's diagram it looks like this is what's behind the plate. I think this model is similar to the Murray i redid this summer and the inside of the bucket (behind the impeller fan where you currently can't see) will not have another plate like on Ariens machines. It will just be the studs tack welded to the bucket metal. Likely the only thing really holding you up is the outside bearing diameter friction and corrosion to the hole in the bucket. With that bracket removed you can spray some lube on the contact points and help it along. If it took a hard hit like you describe, it's possible it's bent a bit around there and may need some "assistance" coming out. If you have some bigger sockets that would fit over it to tap with a hammer. Piece of pipe or even some pvc approx same diameter would work too. Try to avoid tapping directly on the shaft end, especially if it's threaded or splined.


----------



## Sign216 (Feb 14, 2017)

Vermont007, thanks for the parts diagram.

Jtclays, I already whacked the splined shaft a few times with a wooden mallet, and it wouldn't budge. I'll remove the plate w 3 screws, and add some Kroil loosening agent to it.

Is this even repairable? The problem is that after jamming on the lamp, the left side blade assembly is no longer powered. It freewheels. Is there a shear pin inside the forward gearbox that might have broken, or must I replace a variety of shafts + gears to get it working?
As mush as I love the old-time side valve engine, am I getting to the point of diminished returns?


----------



## Dauntae (Nov 10, 2016)

There should be sheer pins on each auger half, sounds like it did its job thus freewheeling on that side


----------



## Sign216 (Feb 14, 2017)

Dauntae said:


> There should be sheer pins on each auger half, sounds like it did its job thus freewheeling on that side


The shear pins are inside the frontmost gear box, right? I.e. the one where the right and left halves of the front augers meet?

I can get access to that, uncomfortably, from the front and it would prevent me from the heartache of getting the rear shaft free from the bearing housing. 

Any tips or warnings when breaking open the front gearbox? 

Should I make the extra effort of breaking the shaft free and getting the whole assembly out, or merely replace the shear pin from the front?

And Dauntea, I see you're in Mass. like myself. Is there a good local parts place for vintage snowblowers?


----------



## jtclays (Sep 24, 2010)

As Dauntae suggests, you should be missing a shear pin in the auger itself which ever side is spinning free. Maybe the other side also broke off and you don't see it (that side may be stuck and not free wheel). As the diagram shows, you should at least see some holes in the augers reference #53, and #54. I don't see how you can access the gearbox innards without removing the entire "T" assembly of the impeller and augers shafts (unless you have removable bucket sides like some older Craftsman's, but not shown in the parts breakdown. On that auger drive spline where you were tapping. Perhaps it's not clear to me from the parts pictures, but when you remove that outside collar, you may find that bearing is actually completely outside the bucket. That would mean you do indeed need to slide the shaft out of the bearing and the collar. If that collar is splined you may need to soak it upside down with PB blaster or similar and figure a way to persuade it through. For me, I'd try an air hammer with a piece flat sock over the end shaft or a block of hardwood and BFH:wavetowel2:Just considering the possible scenario without knowing if that bearing is actually completely outside the bucket metal. If that's the case I can't see enough room to use a puller:icon_blue_very_sad:If you can get a pic with the plate removed smarter folks than I can suggest a remedy hopefully.


----------



## Vermont007 (Mar 29, 2015)

sign216 said:


> ". . . The shear pins are inside the frontmost gear box, right? . . ."


No, they're readily accessible along the Auger Shaft; one to the left, and one to the right.

See *Part # 53* on the Diagram I provided.

Left side is the mirror image of the right side pictured.


----------



## Sign216 (Feb 14, 2017)

Vermont007 said:


> No, they're readily accessible along the Auger Shaft; one to the left, and one to the right.
> 
> See *Part # 53* on the Diagram I provided.
> 
> Left side is the mirror image of the right side pictured.



Vermont, Oh, so the shear pins are on the auger shaft. Is that something I can reach in and remove/install with pliers with the augers in place, or is it more involved and I need to remove the whole assembly?

If I need to remove everything, then tonight I'll pull the 3-screw plate and take a photo of what's behind it. 
Earlier I was banging on the splined shaft pretty hard with a wooden mallet, with no movement. Getting that out won't be easy. Which is actually a little odd, because the rest of the snowblower came apart with less struggle than a drunk girl at prom.

Jtclays, I can apply plenty of force, but I don't want to break something. Let me get a better photo tonight so I can get an update from the forum before I start using an air hammer on anything.


----------



## skutflut (Oct 16, 2015)

This whole job MIGHT not be necessary if you just broke a shear pin on the auger. Since you appear to be in pretty deep so far, do check the auger bearing since its apart to save having to do it all again.

You can get at the shear pins from the front of the machine, one shear pin on each auger section. Make sure you use the correct shear pins/bolts designed for your machine. DO NOT just stick any old bolt through there as they are too hard and won't break, which means the next brick or newspaper or lantern will break the gearbox (about a $250 repair job). 

Also notice that the impeller shaft has two ROLL pins in it, part #52 on the diagram. Those hold the impeller fan stationary to the impeller shaft. They should not break

You will probably find that one side does not have a shear pin because it fell out, or at least the bolt head and nut fell off when it sheared. Find the hole in the auger shaft, then you need to line it up with the hole in the internal drive shaft, keeping in mind that there MIGHT be a chunk of shear pin still in that hole which will need to knocked out with a flat ended punch (so you dont mushroom the broken piece and get it jammed in the hole).

While the thing is in pieces anyway, remove the good shear pin and lubricate the augers with a grease gun, or remove the auger rakes from the shaft, clean off any rust and old lube, and re lubricate everything with low temp grease. Put them back on making sure you get the right on the right side and left on the left side. Lubricate the shear pins and then snug them down, not too tight or you will compress the auger shaft onto the drive shaft.


----------



## Sign216 (Feb 14, 2017)

Skutflut,
Thanks for the maintenance tips.

Vermont, Skutflut, Dauntae, 
The plate held on by 3 nuts, cannot be removed. The bolt heads are on the opposite side, and rotate when the nuts are turned. They are blocked by the snow impeller (part no. 51). I was able to get one nut off, but the others just rotate.

I've applied some thread loosening fluid (Kroil) to soak in overnight.

So it appears I have to separate the bearing and the outer metal housing. Attached is a picture, with two arrows. Blue arrow for inner collar, green arrow for outer collar. Do I strike these collars w a pipe or socket on the perimeter? Which collar to strike? Should I apply a propane torch?


----------



## RIT333 (Feb 6, 2014)

Those bolts should (could) be similar to carriage bolts and are held tight by a square hole in the bucket, and the bolt has a matching square end of the bolt's shaft. Possible they were rusted on too tight, and your rounded the square hole in the bucket. PB blaster or some penetrate may help, but probably not.

Possibly you can get the pulley off by using a couple of pickle forks (ball joint separators) on opposite sides, but soak the pulley shaft with a penetrate for a day or more. A torch may help to break the rust, also.


----------



## Sign216 (Feb 14, 2017)

Wow! I turned the housing upside down and applied the penetrating oil. I was playing with the two collars (bearings) and unit slipped apart and separated!!

As you suggested, the shear pin on the free wheeling side did break. I'll get replacements for both sides.

New Question: While it's apart I want to change the drive and auger belts. This is a 1994 model, fairly old.

Are the belts generic? Can I go anywhere for them? Or do I have to find a MTD/Yard Machines dealer that carries vintage equipment supplies?


----------



## Dauntae (Nov 10, 2016)

Do NOT use car belts, They are different, Snow blower belts sit higher in the pulley so they can easily disengage, See if you can find out what belt it uses and there are many good options and grade belts and can be found pretty inexpensively if you do a little searching online.


----------



## RIT333 (Feb 6, 2014)

Probably best to go with a Kevlar or Aramid belt. I bought some on EBay for a good price, but you need to have the time to wait for shipping. Many Auto Parts stores will carry belts for heavy equipment, but be sure to tell them the application, as was warned - don't just use automotive belts.


----------



## jtclays (Sep 24, 2010)

Sign216 said:


> Are the belts generic? Can I go anywhere for them? Or do I have to find a MTD/Yard Machines dealer that carries vintage equipment supplies?


MTD TMO-3525302 (314-610E088) - Montgomery Ward Snow Thrower (1994) Engine And Pulley Assembly Diagram and Parts List | PartsTree.com
On this page you can find the belt parts numbers, depending on your engine. Google the part numbers and click on a few hits to catch dimensions to see if you can cross it to an off brand or kevlar belt.
MTD tends to use odd dimensions in my experience. For future reference on those spinning bolts, try an impact driver and ever so slightly cant it as you hit it with power and they usually will break free. Other option, if there's enough room is to use vise grips on the end breaking the nut free with a wrench. Upon reassembly get some anti seize inside that collar so next time is much easier.


----------



## Sign216 (Feb 14, 2017)

Jtclays, Rit33, and Dauntae,
Thank you for the guidance.

I've found a local source for MTD belts. The MTD website says they're the same as my old belt, with just a new belt no.
A kevlar belt would be better, and an Ebay belt cheaper, but the machine is apart now so I'm going w that.

With everything apart, I have a new question that I'll post in a new thread; the far ends of the auger shafts rest in the blower "bucket" with sheet metal shims. Even when greased there's a lot friction. 
It looks like I could add ball or roller bearings for the auger shafts to rest in, and hold the bearings in using existing bolt holes and a new piece of sheet metal.

Is this viable, or am I talking nonsense?


----------



## Vermont007 (Mar 29, 2015)

I think you'd be well served to defer on altering the basic engineering at this point.

As it stands, and after all that you've been through, you'll soon be more familiar with your machine than many people who've owned it 10 times as long.

My suggestion is to get that puppy back together first, and make it work for you . . . . *you can make it better later.* Make the introduction of Auger Ball Bearings a future project. Savor what you've done to date without starting something new.

But my opinion is worth exactly what you're paying for it.


----------



## RIT333 (Feb 6, 2014)

Did you sand the auger shaft lightly to get all of the rust off of it ? Maybe with 400 grit. It should loosen up and turn freely after some use. As was said, that is a later project, or a never project.


----------



## skutflut (Oct 16, 2015)

Be very careful when you replace the auger belt. There might be a brake pad on the bottom end of the idler bracket (the one with the idler wheel that tightens the belt when you engage the auger clutch). Make sure the belt sits tight in the pulley when assembling the bucket to the tractor. The brake surface has to be run on on the BACK of the belt, the wide part so that when you release the auger clutch, and the idler wheel backs off from the belt, the brake pad contacts the back of the belt and stops the auger. Its quite easy during assembly, especially if you don't have an extra pair of hands, to accidently get the belt looped over the brake pad (between the brake and the pulley) which will cause you all kinds of grief, tear up the new belt, and cause the auger to run as soon as you start the engine 


As others have said, do not use fractional horsepower or automotive belts. They are pretty light duty and won't stand up to the abuse a snowblower give them. Also mentioned is that Kevlar/Aramid belts are tougher, my first set that came with the blower lasted 8 years, and I only changed them because they were 8 years old, not broken or particularly worn. They are now my backup spare set of belts, just in case.

If you are unable to find the part number for your belts (and even if you are) measure the belts outside circumference using your wife's favorite cloth tape measure. Clip the tape at one end of the belt, the go around the outside and make note of it. Measure the width across the wide part on the outside edge. Note whether or not the belt has cogs on the inside surface which are there to allow the belt to work better on a smaller pulley since it can bend to a tighter radius.

Keep all these measurement notes is a safe place, so if you ever need a belt and don't find the part number you need, you can use one of the belt sites that supply measurements and pick one the correct size and construction. 

The belts for my machine are two different sizes and finding them by the Husqvarna/Craftsman/Poulan part numbers was an exercise in frustration. Part numbers were there, but nobody in the world seems to have THOSE part number. I finally ordered them by size from one of the online sites and they fit perfectly.


----------



## jtclays (Sep 24, 2010)

Your auger ends should have a plastic bushing and a plastic skirt on the ends. #56 and 75 in the schematic. Ideally aftermarket bearings would be great, but likely no maintenance from PO has made these simple parts disappear. While cheap and and not on par with higher end machines parts, these still serve a purpose and should be installed.


----------



## RIT333 (Feb 6, 2014)

Plastic bushing on a snowblower auger - well I'll be... Seems like a "high quality" machine - Not !

"These will serve a purpose"... Yeah, keep a revenue stream of sold bushings for MTD.

Sorry, just seems like a bad place to cut costs.


----------



## Sign216 (Feb 14, 2017)

?!? Of all people I thought you all would support me on this. (especially you, Vermont). 

Look at the bushing housing. I bet I could take this to a bearing supply shop and they could find a match, maybe even get a bearing with an attached housing too. The holes don't need to align, I can drill more. I just need it to match the shaft.

Rit333 - Sanding and grease would be an improvement, but think of the quality of real bearings.

Skutflut - I took your advice and ordered Kevlar belts in the correct size (snow isn't predicted for 8 days, so they should get here in time). 

Jtclays - You are right, the two bushings are plastic. No. 56 is so thin and hard it seemed like sheet metal.

What are your thoughts substituting the rubber/metal bushing for a real bearing? It seems like an easy switch.


----------



## RIT333 (Feb 6, 2014)

Sign216 said:


> ?!?
> 
> Jtclays - You are right, the two bushings are plastic. No. 56 is so thin and hard it seemed like sheet metal.
> 
> What are your thoughts substituting the rubber/metal bushing for a real bearing? It seems like an easy switch.


I agree, bearings would be the best,and a brass bushing would be good, but the rubber bushing would be a distant 3rd.


----------



## Vermont007 (Mar 29, 2015)

Sign216 said:


> ?!? Of all people I thought you all would support me on this. (especially you, Vermont)


I don't want to appear a Turn Coat; mine was just a suggestion regarding your timing.

But regarding those MTD Bushings, *"All Plastic Bushings are not created equal" !*

I was surprised on my MTD Riding Lawnmower that similar Bushings on the King Pin and on the Front Wheel Axles wear more slowly than the steel stock that rotates within them! Those Bushings lasted from 1987 until 2006, even though I mow almost over 3 Acres with that Tractor (only during the Summer).

And on my MTD SnowBlower, those same space age plastic Auger Bushings have already dealt with 10 years of Vermont Salt and Sand. I did procure a set of new Bushings after about 4 years; but they still sit in inventory awaiting the day that they'll be needed. I did postpone that day somewhat by installing a couple Zerk Grease Fittings in each of those sheet metal Auger Bushing housings you have pictured, so I give them each a load of lubricant at the beginning of each season.

The wheel axle bushings (also plastic) haven't fared so well, and despite being lubricated, I had to replace them once; that would be a higher priority for re-engineering . . . . in my opinion.

You do what you gotta do.


----------



## Sign216 (Feb 14, 2017)

I'll let you all know with how this works out. Rit333, Vermont, et al, as suggested if I can't quickly come up with bearings to replace the bushings, I might install zerks to keep the bushings lubed, or... just grease everything up and hold off until summer.


----------

