# Tracks and terrible traction.



## Paul463 (Nov 4, 2014)

HS1132
Just bought it used this fall. Runs perfect, throws snow like mad, but the tracks are terrible for traction in warm snow.

By warm snow I mean 30 degrees out and the snow packs into ice when you drive on it. 

I have a new scraper bar set 3/16" off the floor with the rear shoes touching the floor with the height adjustment pedal in the middle.

If the scraper hits any kind of an little hump or bump and the edge grabs it and the thing just sits, spins, and polishes the ice rather than push through it. 

My question; has anyone put ice screws in their tracks to help with this? Or is this just the way it's gonna be with this thing.


----------



## db9938 (Nov 17, 2013)

I have not heard of anyone doing so, I would check my track tension to ensure that it is properly engaging the ground. 

To be honest, I am not sure that a wheeled machine would fair any better. 

If the track checks out, my suggestions would be slow down, and maybe adjust the scraper another 1/16" up.


----------



## Flexin (Oct 24, 2015)

I don't have any experience with tracks on a snowblower (Have ran excavators with rubber tracks in the snow and on ice)but I don't think ice screws are going to help. Traction isn't a problem if it is only stopping when it hits something. If your driveway is cracked I would raise the scraper up just high enough to not hook on anything in your driveway. I think the ice screws would just tear up your tracks. Something has to give. The item your stuck on, your scraper bar or you tracks. The best option is to skim over it and not do damage to your snowblower.

James


----------



## Paul463 (Nov 4, 2014)

db9938 said:


> I have not heard of anyone doing so, I would check my track tension to ensure that it is properly engaging the ground.
> 
> To be honest, I am not sure that a wheeled machine would fair any better.
> 
> If the track checks out, my suggestions would be slow down, and maybe adjust the scraper another 1/16" up.



My wheeled non-chained John deere will eat this things lunch in these conditions. The area I clear isn't perfectly smooth but it has a hard packed snow base. If the edge grabs a hard bump in the snow it just spins, high speed, low speed doesn't matter. These bumps aren't really even that hard, I can scrape them off with a cheap plastic snow shovel.

I think the tracks have such a large surface area and the ground pressure per square inch is so low that it can't bite into the snow as well as my tires on my other machine do. In real cold squeaky snow it has no problems at all.


----------



## YSHSfan (Jun 25, 2014)

I would like a video of the Honda with the tracks and scraper bar properly adjusted to the conditions VS your wheeled non chain JD side by side on those same conditions to see if the JD is that much better than the Honda. 
Track machines are well known for its superior traction vs a wheel unit. I personally prefer a tracked blower over a wheel unit.

:blowerhug:


----------



## SnowG (Dec 5, 2014)

I agree with DB9938's answer. A track unit like the 1132 has many times the traction of a wheeled unit, IF the tracks are flat. That said, if the ice is slick there are limits. 

I also suggest you revisit your adjustments in that center position. You wrote:


Paul463 said:


> I have a new scraper bar set 3/16" off the floor with the rear shoes touching the floor with the height adjustment pedal in the middle.? .


 My key question is whether the tracks are set to be evenly flat in that position, or is there extra downward pressure on the skids causing less force at the forward end of the tracks? If the latter, then your high traction area is the small patch of track beneath the rear rollers, and the remainder is only pushing lightly on loose snow. You want them FLAT.


----------



## SnowG (Dec 5, 2014)

Paul463 said:


> My wheeled non-chained John deere will eat this things lunch in these conditions. The area I clear isn't perfectly smooth but it has a hard packed snow base. If the edge grabs a hard bump in the snow it just spins, high speed, low speed doesn't matter. These bumps aren't really even that hard, I can scrape them off with a cheap plastic snow shovel.
> 
> I think the tracks have such a large surface area and the ground pressure per square inch is so low that it can't bite into the snow as well as my tires on my other machine do. In real cold squeaky snow it has no problems at all.


What you think about tracks surface area is not right. In fact, more surface area helps create more friction. I suspect the issue is what I suggested above, about your tracks not being equally weighted front-back. They're probably not really flat, so your primary track contact area is a small area at the rear. 

I have over 25 years of experience using wheeled machines and tracks, and my experience is opposite of what you wrote. My tracked Honda HS928ATD has at least 5 times the traction of my prior Noma 27" wheeled unit that was equipped with Snow Hog tires. (That's being conservative.)


----------



## Paul463 (Nov 4, 2014)

SnowG said:


> What you think about tracks surface area is not right. In fact, more surface area helps create more friction. I suspect the issue is what I suggested above, about your tracks not being equally weighted front-back. They're probably not really flat, so your primary track contact area is a small area at the rear.
> 
> I have over 25 years of experience using wheeled machines and tracks, and my experience is opposite of what you wrote. My tracked Honda HS928ATD has at least 5 times the traction of my prior Noma 27" wheeled unit that was equipped with Snow Hog tires. (That's being conservative.)


I'll check them again but they look perfectly flat on my garage floor.

FWIW out Kubota SVL90 with rubber tracks at work is pathetic on hard pack compared to our old New Holland L180 with tires. It's ok if you leave about a 6" thick pad of snow to drive on but once I scrape it down to hard pack it won't push worth a ****.

ETA, the tracks are perfectly flat front to rear on my floor with the adjustment in the middle position. The scraper bar is set as far up in the slots as it will go, and the skids behind it are just touching the floor.


----------



## JnC (Feb 21, 2014)

For uneven hard packed area your rear skids needs to be adjusted to make sure the bottom of the housing or augers dont catch to hard uneven surfaces. Unless you want to bulldoze your way through the hard surface that is caught onto the housing you need to raise the housing at least an inch off of the ground. 

You can have all the traction in the world but if you are caught onto something hard you are not going anywhere, if anything it may damage the transmission if the tracks have traction and they are trying to push the machine yet there is no give from the caught on edge. 

Your wheeled machine does a better job as when the lip gets caught onto something hard the auger housing just skips over the edge as it can pivot up and down easily as the pivot point is only one i.e. the wheels. The tracked machines are different as the auger housing doesnt pivot up and down, not unless you adjust the height, hence once it catches onto something it catches on and stays on until you push down on the handle bars to free it.


Here is a screenshot from the service manual


----------



## canadagoose (Dec 5, 2014)

I have noticed this too. The traction of tracks vs tires is no comparison. The tracks are far superior for traction. As for getting caught on a piece of ice , or whatever the case may be , it is true , just have to back off and pivot over it.
That's how I proceed when this happens which really isn't often


----------



## db9938 (Nov 17, 2013)

Forgive me, but everyone is correct. Tracks do indeed spread the weight over a larger area, but that wide foot print increases the opportunity for ground contact and floatation over softer surfaces. Wheels have a smaller foot print, that forces the weight on an area 1/3-1/4 of the surface of a tracked machine. 

This does not mean that either cannot spin/slip, they can under the right circumstance. 

That said, both machines can be "fooled" into thinking that they are heavier than they are, by simply tipping handles down. This changes the CG, and applies the full weight of the bucket back onto the tractor. Now, some tracked models operate with the full weight on the tractor, but they hang that weight out forward. Even with these, if you push down on the handles and raise the bucket up, it will shift the CG. 

Everything I learned about this, was from running one of these:










So it's a little different.


----------



## SnowG (Dec 5, 2014)

I bet that has great traction


----------



## db9938 (Nov 17, 2013)

I took a ride down a hill once, during an ice storm, there was a lot of this going on:



and this:

:hope:

Ran right into an M88 recovery vehicle, doing a whoping 5 mph. But we were more afraid of sliding off the road, into the culvert. And both tracks were locked up tight. Of course, we weren't running the plow at the time, if we were, we could have dropped it and stopped on a dime.


----------



## Paul463 (Nov 4, 2014)

Well, I fiddled with it a little tonight. I think this thing is going down the road.

For my conditions right now the wheeled John Deere flat out works better. I did half with the Honda and half with the JD... The JD pushed right on through the stuff that the Honda spun at. That isn't to say it didn't slip at all, but it was way less. And the wheeled machine is a breeze to keep going in a straight line.

And my unscientific test of holding the machine back and seeing how hard it pulls, the JD pulled harder.

I like the machine, but tracks just aren't for me I guess.


----------



## db9938 (Nov 17, 2013)

And it could be the design of the tread design versus the design of the wheel tread. Who knows? 

There are going to be differences of opinion based on average snow type, and terrain.

And what ever works best, use it.


----------



## skutflut (Oct 16, 2015)

db9938 said:


> Forgive me, but everyone is correct. Tracks do indeed spread the weight over a larger area, but that wide foot print increases the opportunity for ground contact and floatation over softer surfaces. Wheels have a smaller foot print, that forces the weight on an area 1/3-1/4 of the surface of a tracked machine.
> 
> This does not mean that either cannot spin/slip, they can under the right circumstance.
> 
> ...



Can you angle those pointy things on the front end down to break up the EOD pile?


----------



## skutflut (Oct 16, 2015)

I fondly remember operating one of these in the late 1960s at a place where I worked. Those tracks were great in snow going forward and backward, uphill or down, but if you got sideways on a grade, with any ice under the snow, they worked like ice skates. Learned fast not to try and move snow across the grade, strictly up hill and down hill. Plow on mine was just a straight blade with side wings to contain the pile, nothing fancy like this picture, but the machine is the same vintage with the tilt cab. Mine didn't have the roll bar either. As I remember, the heater didn't work much either, and the windshield wiper was flaky and it was drafty. and noisy... Jeez, what a horrible job I had...


----------



## db9938 (Nov 17, 2013)

skutflut said:


> Can you angle those pointy things on the front end down to break up the EOD pile?


Yes, but they are designed to also negotiate up to 18" of concrete, so there's not a lot left after besides gravel.


----------



## db9938 (Nov 17, 2013)

skutflut said:


> I fondly remember operating one of these in the late 1960s at a place where I worked. Those tracks were great in snow going forward and backward, uphill or down, but if you got sideways on a grade, with any ice under the snow, they worked like ice skates. Learned fast not to try and move snow across the grade, strictly up hill and down hill. Plow on mine was just a straight blade with side wings to contain the pile, nothing fancy like this picture, but the machine is the same vintage with the tilt cab. Mine didn't have the roll bar either. As I remember, the heater didn't work much either, and the windshield wiper was flaky and it was drafty. and noisy... Jeez, what a horrible job I had...


HA, my heater didn't work worth a darn either!

That's a Bombardier, correct?


----------



## skutflut (Oct 16, 2015)

db9938 said:


> HA, my heater didn't work worth a darn either!
> 
> That's a Bombardier, correct?


Yes, I figure it was about a 1960 or so model. Best toy ever since my Tonka trucks, I was about 17 at the time, and I think I still had them someplace at home.


----------



## skutflut (Oct 16, 2015)

db9938 said:


> Yes, but they are designed to also negotiate up to 18" of concrete, so there's not a lot left after besides gravel.


Hmm, i guess you would have to come up with a modification, like a two position switch... one setting for EOD pile, one setting for 18" of concrete. Maybe put some little rubber boots on the tines, kind of want the curb and asphalt to remain.


----------



## db9938 (Nov 17, 2013)

skutflut said:


> Yes, I figure it was about a 1960 or so model. Best toy ever since my Tonka trucks, I was about 17 at the time, and I think I still had them someplace at home.


That would be fun.


----------



## db9938 (Nov 17, 2013)

skutflut said:


> Hmm, i guess you would have to come up with a modification, like a two position switch... one setting for EOD pile, one setting for 18" of concrete. Maybe put some little rubber boots on the tines, kind of want the curb and asphalt to remain.


I wish it were that easy. With the weight, even those rub. er boots would be worn down to nothing in less than 4 inches. You are easily adding 5-10 tons, to the front of 62 tons, with 1500hp. So yeah, things can get crazy, quick.


----------



## skutflut (Oct 16, 2015)

db9938 said:


> I wish it were that easy. With the weight, even those rub. er boots would be worn down to nothing in less than 4 inches. You are easily adding 5-10 tons, to the front of 62 tons, with 1500hp. So yeah, things can get crazy, quick.


Well, maybe I should rethink the whole idea. At least we wouldn't have to worry about ethenol gas on that machine, it takes jet fuel, doesn't it?


----------



## db9938 (Nov 17, 2013)

It will burn anything that is a liquid fuel. There are specified ratios of blends, that you are supposed to follow, but it will run whatever. It has a 1500 AGT turbine, and is a pneuma-statiated, hydrostatic coupled. And all brought to you by the lowest bidder.


----------



## skutflut (Oct 16, 2015)

db9938 said:


> It will burn anything that is a liquid fuel. There are specified ratios of blends, that you are supposed to follow, but it will run whatever. It has a 1500 AGT turbine, and is a pneuma-statiated, hydrostatic coupled. And all brought to you by the lowest bidder.



That engine sounds like a bit of overkill to blow snow mostly that pneuma-satiated part ?????:smiley-confused009: . I bet there's no parts online for it either. Guess I will stick the the B&S snow engine for now. <sigh> :huh:


----------



## jrom (Jan 10, 2014)

Paul463 said:


> HS1132
> ...If the scraper hits any kind of an little hump or bump and the edge grabs it and the thing just sits, spins, and polishes the ice rather than push through it.
> 
> My question; has anyone put ice screws in their tracks to help with this? Or is this just the way it's gonna be with this thing.


I agree with everyone on adjustment, but you may want to consider side skids. I had trouble with mine in the same conditions as you mention and after adding side skids and taking off the rears, it made a huge difference. 

My rear skids were the thin ones from 1991, no experience with the heavier ones.

If that doesn't help, ice screws sound like a good idea, but they may pull out as you hit hard pack and ice though, creating weak areas in the tracks.


----------



## Paul463 (Nov 4, 2014)

jrom said:


> I agree with everyone on adjustment, but you may want to consider side skids. I had trouble with mine in the same conditions as you mention and after adding side skids and taking off the rears, it made a huge difference.
> 
> My rear skids were the thin ones from 1991, no experience with the heavier ones.
> 
> If that doesn't help, ice screws sound like a good idea, but they may pull out as you hit hard pack and ice though, creating weak areas in the tracks.


I ran it again tonight. Now that it's good and cold outside (-2f) and it's like a different machine, it pulls like crazy. Warm snow is not the ideal condition for tracks and me I guess.


----------



## YSHSfan (Jun 25, 2014)

Paul463 said:


> I ran it again tonight. Now that it's good and cold outside (-2f) and it's like a different machine, it pulls like crazy. Warm snow is not the ideal condition for tracks and me I guess.


I would also suggest side skids installation and try and see how it is the next time you use it in "warm" snow (the side skids will also protect the auger housing and augers from unwanted wear).


----------



## db9938 (Nov 17, 2013)

skutflut said:


> That engine sounds like a bit of overkill to blow snow mostly that pneuma-satiated part ?????:smiley-confused009: . I bet there's no parts online for it either. Guess I will stick the the B&S snow engine for now. <sigh> :huh:


The pneumo-statiated part, simply describes one fan, pushing another. The turbine exhausts into an accumulator, that is directly connected to a large torque convertor. It's a lot simpler than what it sounds, and aside from air induction, pretty robust. I've seen a couple compressors fail in the turbine, and they backfired, repetitively. Sounded like a teenage kids car with a huge sub-woofer. It would also blow the air cleaner cover up about 3". That's 100 lb of steel!

And yeah, you might find somethings, but not everything. And most folks would end up using it as a blower, or a gokart engine. It's really that small, about the same foot print as 3.5 predators. (engine only)


----------



## db9938 (Nov 17, 2013)

hsblowersfan said:


> I would also suggest side skids installation and try and see how it is the next time you use it in "warm" snow (the side skids will also protect the auger housing and augers from unwanted wear).


I forgot all about that, excellent suggestion.


----------

