# Engine swap/upgrade?



## n8ertot (Jan 10, 2017)

So I've had this thing for years and have been gradually getting it to be a bit more reliable. I'm at a point where I'm going to be replacing the carb and wondered if I shouldn't just replace the motor. It looks like for less than a couple hundred I could upgrade to a 10hp or something. Problem is, although I'm well versed in car repair and such, I have no idea how to go about the selection process of deciding which motor is going to fit when it's not stock or if the machine is worth upgrading in the first place (or will more hp/torque just shred everything it's connected to). It seemed ancient when I got it, so I may just be keeping a zombie going. 

Any suggestions? 

Since apparently I can't post images direct, here are links (just add http):

























Everything I can find on it in case you can't get to pics:
Noma 5hp 24"
6 speed 
old as ****
# on engine: HSSK50 67317N
I see nothing on DOM except 42590


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## nwcove (Mar 2, 2015)

is the engine a dual shaft or a single ? if its a single, a 212cc predator for about $100 , or if your in canada you can get the 208 cc powerfist for about $140 on sale. both those engines should be a bolt on, with possible easy mods to the chute rotation rod. 
if its a dual shaft engine......not so easy, but not impossible to "chonda" it.


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## e.fisher26 (Nov 6, 2016)

Its a tecumseh eng, do u want to up the hp? I repower machines all the time. Sticking to tecumseh is easier. Depending on the year of eng anything over 7-8 hp will have a bigger crank case cover so the eng will sit farther back on the frame. Usually noma was good about using the same frame on machines with bigger engines so theres should already be holes that will take a bigger eng. other things to look at are, if the eng is moved back is there enough space between the handle bars and pullstarter on eng. ( bigger eng usually sits back about 1.5in). The same crank shaft size helps when fitting pulleys. My latest job was changing from a chineese 5hp on a cub cadet to a 8hp tecumseh. I got lucky, everything changed over as if same eng. i lost the headlight tho, No stator on older tecumseh 


-efisher-


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## n8ertot (Jan 10, 2017)

Looks like a single. Any geometry changes I'd need to make (like pulleys, different belts, etc) or would it be entirely the same except a more powerful engine?


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## n8ertot (Jan 10, 2017)

e.fisher26 said:


> Its a tecumseh eng, do u want to up the hp? I repower machines all the time. Sticking to tecumseh is easier. Depending on the year of eng anything over 7-8 hp will have a bigger crank case cover so the eng will sit farther back on the frame. Usually noma was good about using the same frame on machines with bigger engines so theres should already be holes that will take a bigger eng. other things to look at are, if the eng is moved back is there enough space between the handle bars and pullstarter on eng. ( bigger eng usually sits back about 1.5in). The same crank shaft size helps when fitting pulleys. My latest job was changing from a chineese 5hp on a cub cadet to a 8hp tecumseh. I got lucky, everything changed over as if same eng. i lost the headlight tho, No stator on older tecumseh
> 
> 
> -efisher-


Yeah, the goal would be a bigger engine. My assumption is that this thing's old enough it's probably lost most of the HP it started out with, so even a 1:1 would be better. But if I'm going to do it, I'd just as soon give it a bump. 
There should be enough room for a pullstart, although maybe I should look at getting an electric start engine if possible. 
My hope is that I'd be able to get a bigger engine with the same shaft so I wouldn't have to worry about all of the geometry changes that would come w/ new pulleys and such.


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## e.fisher26 (Nov 6, 2016)

To use the extra power i might find a bigger auger pulley, maybe like 1/4 bigger. Tractor supply has pulleys in stock, if not there then online. OEM pulleys somtimes are one piece, drive and auger. So i buy 2 separate pulleys. New tecumseh engines arent made now, so would need to find used or leftover expencive eng at dealers.


-efisher-


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## nwcove (Mar 2, 2015)

the 212 or 208 chonda will use your pulleys and same belt, and same belt cover. you will grin from ear to ear upgrading from a 5hp tired tech to a "6.5 hp" chonda. throw in an impeller kit.....and it will be better than many new machines as far as snow moving goes. if you are handy with tools, even with the chute rod mods, its an afternoons work or less .


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## e.fisher26 (Nov 6, 2016)

Ya the chonda engines scare me, but they are gaining popularity


-efisher-


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## n8ertot (Jan 10, 2017)

e.fisher26 said:


> To use the extra power i might find a bigger auger pulley, maybe like 1/4 bigger. Tractor supply has pulleys in stock, if not there then online. OEM pulleys somtimes are one piece, drive and auger. So i buy 2 separate pulleys. New tecumseh engines arent made now, so would need to find used or leftover expencive eng at dealers.
> 
> 
> -efisher-


It looks like mine has the pulleys attached individually. Are you saying 1/4" bigger or do you mean size*25% bigger? 
I go back and forth about whether I'd want to reuse an old engine when new ones are so cheap, but it would be nice if it's bolt-on.



e.fisher26 said:


> Ya the chonda engines scare me, but they are gaining popularity
> 
> 
> -efisher-


Why do they scare you?


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## n8ertot (Jan 10, 2017)

nwcove said:


> the 212 or 208 chonda will use your pulleys and same belt, and same belt cover. you will grin from ear to ear upgrading from a 5hp tired tech to a "6.5 hp" chonda. throw in an impeller kit.....and it will be better than many new machines as far as snow moving goes. if you are handy with tools, even with the chute rod mods, its an afternoons work or less .


So it would be completely bolt-on then, with not other parts or dimensions affected? Sounds like a pretty good setup then. 
As for impeller kit, are you talking about a rebuild or is there an upgrade you're recommending?


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## e.fisher26 (Nov 6, 2016)

Quality of materials, parts availability. At least on 90% of Tecumseh, most parts are available from every small equipment shop. But then again i dont like new briggs & straton engines either, but thats mostly because of epa


-efisher-


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## n8ertot (Jan 10, 2017)

Also, by Chonda, do you mean something like the 212cc Harbor Freight engine?


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## nwcove (Mar 2, 2015)

e.fisher26 said:


> Ya the chonda engines scare me, but they are gaining popularity
> 
> 
> -efisher-


if the go cart and mini bike guys can do a few internal mods to them, and spin them up to 8000 rpms.......im in my comfort zone keeping it stock at 3600. ( i do want to turn the screw up to 3800-4000 tho ).


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## e.fisher26 (Nov 6, 2016)

As far as the pulley, mine was 2.75 diameter. I went to 3in. The harbour fright predator eng is what i hear most about, so i would go with them over other chinees engines.


-efisher-


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## nwcove (Mar 2, 2015)

e.fisher26 said:


> As far as the pulley, mine was 2.75 diameter. I went to 3in. The harbour fright predator eng is what i hear most about, so i would go with them over other chinees engines.
> 
> 
> -efisher-


.....and if you decide to go ^ that way...do some research and try to get your hands on the coveted hemi head version. and yes it is real......a hemi on your sb is possible lol


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## e.fisher26 (Nov 6, 2016)

What is that the cast head, or "snow king" or is it somthing differnt?


-efisher-


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## n8ertot (Jan 10, 2017)

I think maybe you guys are a bit more ambitious than I. 
I'm not really looking to turn my blower into a 'Cuda anytime soon. Just biggest bang for time and buck. If the predator is a bolt on with the same size shaft and I can reuse all my parts with little modification, that works for me. Maybe I'll head down to HF and take a look.


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## e.fisher26 (Nov 6, 2016)

3hp, 6.5, 13, and 22hp opts


-efisher-


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## e.fisher26 (Nov 6, 2016)

Id go 22hp........ 


-efisher-


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## n8ertot (Jan 10, 2017)

e.fisher26 said:


> Id go 22hp........
> 
> 
> -efisher-


Why do I suddenly feel like I've just joined the Tooltime forum?


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## e.fisher26 (Nov 6, 2016)

This summer im going from 8 to 10 hp on that same cubcadet. The 10 is comming off my noma 10/29


-efisher-


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## e.fisher26 (Nov 6, 2016)

Also, impeller kit mentioned earlier, is rubber paddles screwd to impellers to minimize clogging, theres you tube vids on it 


-efisher-


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## Boosted3g (Oct 9, 2016)

Everyone wants to get all excited about being made here until you have to pull cash out of your pocket. All I hear is get the Chonda. Spend a little more and buy a real Honda and not a copy.


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## e.fisher26 (Nov 6, 2016)

Only honda ill get close to owning is old and used


-efisher-


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## n8ertot (Jan 10, 2017)

Well, seems like a good idea to go for the predator, and my local Harbor Freight has 16 in stock, so I'm going to take a trip down with one of the pulleys to take a look.


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## n8ertot (Jan 10, 2017)

Boosted3g said:


> Everyone wants to get all excited about being made here until you have to pull cash out of your pocket. All I hear is get the Chonda. Spend a little more and buy a real Honda and not a copy.


I certainly understand that, but this is a pretty old rustbucket of a machine. I have no problem paying $100 for a few more years of use, but I don't really see an extra value in getting a more expensive engine. I'm willing to consider it though if it makes sense.

Along those lines, just updated first post to show images since it seems I hit that threshold now.


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## e.fisher26 (Nov 6, 2016)

Most definitely, i didnt know just how old it was. I couldnt copy and paste the links so no idea what it looks like 


-efisher-


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## detdrbuzzard (Jan 20, 2012)

a few have mentioned putting an impeller kit on your machine but before you do try it without the kit, it might just throw snow far enough without the kit. the kit will help 100% when the snow is wet and heavy though, I just tried my toro 521 that has an impeller kit in super wet snow, not only did it blow that stuff it never clogged but we usually don't get snow like this very often


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## nwcove (Mar 2, 2015)

Boosted3g said:


> Everyone wants to get all excited about being made here until you have to pull cash out of your pocket. All I hear is get the Chonda. Spend a little more and buy a real Honda and not a copy.


ahem...."spend a little more and buy a real Honda"? a " little more" must be a relative term !

if i could afford a honda......id buy a yamaha.


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## Boosted3g (Oct 9, 2016)

Then buy a Yamaha. Why reward a company for copying someone else's design and cheapening it up. Who really wins in the end. Buy used if you can't afford new. It's not like a Honda with 500 hours on it will run different than a new one.


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## YSHSfan (Jun 25, 2014)

Boosted3g said:


> Why reward a company for copying someone else's design and cheapening it up. Who really wins in the end.


Unfortunately it is the reality now days. I'm guilty at that too. 
If I am repowering a 100-400 snowblower, I can not see myself spending on a brand new or very good used Honda engine, I've installed 2 Predator 212 engines.
Now If I am repowering a 600-1500+ snowblower I'd for sure invest on a new or good used Honda engine as I could get my money back when I decide to sell it.

The fact that they are a "copy" was well clarified by [email protected] that the patent expired a long time ago and anyone could legally build a Honda like engine with the exception that it could not be red with a white tank as it would violate the "Honda trade dress".

JMMHO


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## Boosted3g (Oct 9, 2016)

I see what you saying but patent or not copy is a copy. If Honda parts directly fit and function in another engine it is a copy. It's not a coincidence.


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## n8ertot (Jan 10, 2017)

Well, I'm woefully unprepared for a discussion of global economics and the impact of outsourcing labor to lower wage markets, so I'm going to abstain. 

On the other hand, I took my pulleys to the local Harbor Freight and tested the fit on the 212. Couldn't have been more perfect and the engine was only $120, so I brought it home with me. Going to work on it either tonight or tomorrow sometime to get it on. At this point I'm just hoping the mounts will line up so nicely that it will require very little customization. A quick look has me cautiously optimistic, but I'll do some pics as I go so this thread can help the next DIYer.


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## e.fisher26 (Nov 6, 2016)

I think the blue powerhorse brand was a knockoff first no?


-efisher-


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## SnowG (Dec 5, 2014)

e.fisher26 said:


> Also, impeller kit mentioned earlier, is rubber paddles screwd to impellers to minimize clogging, theres you tube vids on it
> 
> 
> -efisher-


That Noma might not need an impeller mod to throw well. My prior machine was a Noma 27" with 8 hp Snow King. It never clogged, no matter how much slush. If I loaded up the impeller it would push out whatever slush and snow was in there, and it threw snow up to 30-40' or more. 

That was a rattletrap of an engine but it was all I knew. Used earplugs for the pain -- it was that loud. 

The base machine was excellent and lasted me more than 20 years, added 25lbs weight to the front to reduce climbing. The decision to get my Honda was well worth it, however.


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## n8ertot (Jan 10, 2017)

SnowG said:


> That Noma might not need an impeller mod to throw well. My prior machine was a Noma 27" with 8 hp Snow King. It never clogged, no matter how much slush. If I loaded up the impeller it would push out whatever slush and snow was in there, and it threw snow up to 30-40' or more.
> 
> That was a rattletrap of an engine but it was all I knew. Used earplugs for the pain -- it was that loud.
> 
> The base machine was excellent and lasted me more than 20 years, added 25lbs weight to the front to reduce climbing. The decision to get my Honda was well worth it, however.


This thing's had some serious clogging issues. Nearly lost some fingers because it clogged up so often and I was dumb enough to think that because the impeller wasn't running I'd be safe. Snapped down on my fingers really quick and cut through what were essentially welding gloves and nearly severed the tips of 2 fingers off. 
That was the first year I owned it and since then I've mostly been greasing everything I could and trying to keep the engine going. It's much better than it was and I added a scoop so I'm not tempted to be stupid again. We'll see what this engine swap does for it, but those tines are pretty beat and when I changed the grease in the gearbox it was in pretty bad shape, so I'll probably need to rebuild that too (once I can find out what parts I need for it). An impeller mod might be my best option, depending on what's involved.


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## YSHSfan (Jun 25, 2014)

n8ertot said:


> An impeller mod might be my best option, depending on what's involved.


The engine should bolt and line right up where the old one was.

For an impeller kit (it is fairly simple to do, but follow safety precautions), here is a video. You can get a small piece of baler belting at a tractor supply place or some people use old rubber paddles from a single stage snowblower (I'm collecting them myself for future use).


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## n8ertot (Jan 10, 2017)

hsblowersfan said:


> The engine should bolt and line right up where the old one was.
> 
> For an impeller kit (it is fairly simple to do, but follow safety precautions), here is a video. You can get a small piece of baler belting at a tractor supply place or some people use old rubber paddles from a single stage snowblower (I'm collecting them myself for future use).


That seems like such a no-brainer that I wonder why the manufacturers didn't already do it. I'm definitely going to be making this upgrade. Thanks!


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## Doublee2005 (Nov 23, 2014)

I agree tec 8hp with 3/4 shaft quick and easy with much more torque Good beginner project


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## 43128 (Feb 14, 2014)

i just buy toro s200 paddles for like 8-10 bucks. one paddle will do 3-4 machines. i cut them with an angle grinder

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Toro-S2...781739?hash=item1ebea93f6b:g:ZUcAAOSwl9BWK6E9


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## n8ertot (Jan 10, 2017)

43128 said:


> i just buy toro s200 paddles for like 8-10 bucks. one paddle will do 3-4 machines. i cut them with an angle grinder
> 
> NEW Toro S200, S620 paddle fitting snowblower thrower 23-3730 replacement | eBay


Awesome. Thanks for the recommendation.


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## n8ertot (Jan 10, 2017)

Well, all done. Took a grand total of only about 3 hours, and some of that was because I had to run to Home Depot for a shaft bolt (5/16 fine thread for those that may need the same thing). Runs beautifully and now I can' wait for the next snowfall. 
The engine was completely bolt-on, as promised. All of the geometries lined up the same so I didn't have to replace anything else. 4 bolts to get the old engine off and the new one used the same bolts to get on. I didn't even have to move the chute adjuster.


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