# regular gas in a 2 stroke woes



## Ran440 (Apr 5, 2014)

Hi all
I just got a Toro CCR 3650 from a friend in non running. First thing I did was roll it over with the pull starter. Felt good. No start, not surprised, so I looked in the fuel tank and it had plenty of fuel. Almost clear fuel. Well s*&$. So I drained all the fuel out, drained fuel bowl, added correct premix, squirted a little oil down the carb to get things lubed up.
Still have a no start situation. Compression is at 90 psi. Has spark. 
Removed the carb to look at piston and I do see some scoring on the piston.


So my question is should I just scrap this engine or is there still hope?


I was hoping to get it running and sell for about $135-$145 , Don't want the cost of parts to eat up the profits so I am working for free.
Thanks, Randy


----------



## JLawrence08648 (Jan 15, 2017)

Did you squirt starting fluid in the carb? Check for spark? Sometimes there is no spark because there is a ground.


----------



## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

He said it has spark, but I would second the suggestion of using some starting fluid, or spraying some gas into the carb's throat, to see if will run briefly. At least that would tell you if it's a carb problem. 

I would expect that you'd have enough to get it to start with 90 psi, but I could be wrong. My 4-strokes fire with significantly less than that, which is what I'm using as a reference point.


----------



## Snowbelt_subie (Dec 20, 2016)

JLawrence08648 said:


> Did you squirt starting fluid in the carb? Check for spark? Sometimes there is no spark because there is a ground.


Yea make sure it will pop a little with starting fluid. 90psi is right on the fence on if it will run. 

The gas could have fried the rings enough to make it not start. If it's not a gas or spark issue it probably isnt worth fixing.



Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## Lottstodo (Feb 16, 2018)

I would pull the plug make sure the choke is open and pull starter rope and see if you get a lot of gas vapor , keep doing that even with the plug attached on the plug wire so you can watch spark as you do. Does your plug appear wet when you looked at it.. 

I have had 2 strokes flood over through carb / and put a lot of fuel in the lower end that made it a bear to get started, as it was picking up excess from the bottom end. Not sure on the toro models but look and see if it has a lower end drain plug on the case.


----------



## Ran440 (Apr 5, 2014)

Tried starting fluid no go.
Using electric start and starting fluid it is trying to do something as I would get a little smoke, but no pop or spit n sputter.
I to have had 4 strokers run on less psi.


BTW that was some fast replies thanks


----------



## strtch5881 (Oct 6, 2018)

I work on a lot of 2 strokes. If you squirted oil in there and only got 90psi, it's done. Scoring smears the ringland enough to not let the rings spring out against the cylinder wall. 90psi is on the edge without the squirt of oil. With the oil should have been at least 130psi.


----------



## groomerz (Feb 7, 2015)

Plastic Carb?


----------



## arienskids (Jan 26, 2018)

idk where i work we pull the muffler and check for scoring if you have scoring you can still have compression yet still not be able to run properly. thats why first thing for every non running 2 stroke we service is pull muffler check cylinder walls and test compression. typically anything over 110psi is considered acceptable where i work but any 2 stroke with heavy scoring is typically wrote up as nwf unless its almost new


----------



## 132619 (Nov 20, 2018)

never ever spray starting fluid into a 2 stroke, ether wipes off the small amount of the oil in the mix off the piston , cylinder and needle bearings. causing scoring from being dry, the correct method is using a gas oil mix in a squeeze bottle or old fashioned oiler can if the motor needs to be primed .

i'm with arienskids pull the muffler take a good look at the piston, if it's scored, it's done, short block time


----------



## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

33 woodie said:


> never ever spray starting fluid into a 2 stroke, ether wipes off the small amount of the oil in the mix off the piston , cylinder and needle bearings. causing scoring from being dry, the correct method is using a gas oil mix in a squeeze bottle or old fashioned oiler can if the motor needs to be primed .



Excellent reminder, thanks! I was forgetting about that aspect for a 2-stroke. On the plus side, any squeeze bottle you set up with mixed gas could also be used for a 4-stroke.


----------



## 132619 (Nov 20, 2018)

how true red!!


----------



## Ran440 (Apr 5, 2014)

I'll try it again this morning going easy on priming. There is a slim chance it got flooded. I did focus on getting it lubed with premix since I knew it had regular gas run through. I'l keep ya posted.


----------



## Snowbelt_subie (Dec 20, 2016)

33 woodie said:


> never ever spray starting fluid into a 2 stroke, ether wipes off the small amount of the oil in the mix off the piston , cylinder and needle bearings. causing scoring from being dry, the correct method is using a gas oil mix in a squeeze bottle or old fashioned oiler can if the motor needs to be primed .
> 
> i'm with arienskids pull the muffler take a good look at the piston, if it's scored, it's done, short block time



i agree if you want to go the extra mile that would be the correct way... but spraying a couple little sprays of starting fluid or carb cleaner for diagnosis isnt going to harm the engine in any noticeable way. i have been doing it for 20 years without any adverse effects. 

if your running the 2 stroke on starting fluid only for minutes you might see some scoring. i had a guy 2 years ago bring me his weed eater that was seized from running strait gas and weed eating his whole yard for 30+ minutes. i got it to free up with some mystery oil and diesel mix. 

i put mix gas in it and its been running ever since. he is a regular customer and i always ask him about it when i see him and he says it still runs like nothing ever happened.


----------



## Ran440 (Apr 5, 2014)

I'll keep my fingers crossed. It's a good looking machine.


----------



## JLawrence08648 (Jan 15, 2017)

Snowbelt_subie said:


> 90psi is right on the fence on if it will run.





strtch5881 said:


> I work on a lot of 2 strokes. If you squirted oil in there and only got 90psi, it's done. Scoring smears the ringland enough to not let the rings spring out against the cylinder wall. 90psi is on the edge without the squirt of oil. With the oil should have been at least 130psi.


90psi? 130psi? I did not know that. I've done compression tests on 4 cycle engines but never on a 2 cycle. Thanks.


----------



## JLawrence08648 (Jan 15, 2017)

33 woodie said:


> never ever spray starting fluid into a 2 stroke, ether wipes off the small amount of the oil in the mix off the piston , cylinder and needle bearings. causing scoring from being dry, the correct method is using a gas oil mix in a squeeze bottle or old fashioned oiler can if the motor needs to be primed.


I don't disagree with you but do agree with you completely however it's easier to spray starting fluid than have a small bottle of mix. I first use the primer bulb to put gas in the carb, if that doesn't work I put a capful of mix in, if that doesn't work then I resort to the starting fluid. I feel the engine life shortage is inconsequential as it has plenty of oil in there already from the all the gas I've already dumped in there, besides the darn thing will eventually fall apart and have loads off other problems in it's lifetime that will be the cause of it being disposed of properly!


----------



## Ran440 (Apr 5, 2014)

Flooded !!!
Right now I have the carb off, Rolled the engine over several times and got fuel mist out the spark plug hole. Put spark plug in, roll over and plug comes out wet. Repeat. Plug still come out wet. Used compressed air through intake with spark plug removed and rolled the engine over. Put spark plug back in and roll the engine over. Spark plug still comes out wet. 

Dang


----------



## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

Sounds like the crankcase is loaded up . . .


----------



## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

What's the best way to resolve that? If you pull the plug, to avoid fighting compression, maybe you don't pull an intake vacuum though the crankcase. 

So do you shut off the fuel/remove the carb, and just crank it for a while, to clear it out? Maybe bursts with the electric starter (but not so much that you burn it out)? 

Can starting fluid be volatile enough to help get it to actually begin running on its own? Maybe sprayed into the plug hole, after drying the plug?


----------



## Grunt (Nov 11, 2013)

You have tested for spark I hope. Maybe try a new spark plug also. I agree that 90 psi compression is low, but if spark, fuel and air are present, it should start.


----------



## malisha1 (Nov 16, 2018)

Try a new spark plug.


----------



## sscotsman (Dec 8, 2010)

I have a funny weedeater gas story! (well, funny now, and probably funny only to me) 

Im about 15 years old, it's the mid 1980's, im using a gas weedeater for the very first time. It's at my cousins house (my cousin is an adult, about 10 years older than me)
She and her husband and kids just got a new house, and we are cleaning up the yard..
the weedeater is new, recently purchased by my cousin's husband, who is at work that day. (its summer, im a teenager on summer vacation)

So my cousin gives me a quick rundown on how the machine works..mentions nothing about gas. I use it for a bit, then it stops..I check the gas tank, out of gas! no problem, there is a gas can right there, same one my cousin is using for the lawnmower..I fill it back up with gas, start it up again..it works for a few minutes, then suddenly stops..wont start again..the starter cord wont pull out. huh, weird.

I go and find my cousin, tell her I added more gas..she looks at the gas can, says thats fine, we both look at the weedeater, neither of us have any idea what is wrong..We'll just have to leave it until her husband gets home, he can look at it. I go home before he gets home..never heard anything more about it.

About 20 years pass.., its about 2005, im now 35 and own my own home for the first time. I buy a weedwacker for myself..what's this? oil and gas mix? ok then.....

*the light bulb suddenly goes off* about the weed wacker 20 years earlier. 

Scot


----------



## strtch5881 (Oct 6, 2018)

Grunt said:


> You have tested for spark I hope. Maybe try a new spark plug also. I agree that 90 psi compression is low, but if spark, fuel and air are present, it should start.




He said 90 psi after a shot of oil.


----------



## Ran440 (Apr 5, 2014)

Testing for spark was one of the first things I did. ( That was in my earlier post ) Use the spark plug out of the head grounded to the head. I do this a lot and this machine the strongest spark I have seen in a while. So that proves I am getting spark and the plug is good.
The problem is removing the fuel from the crankcase. Not sure how that much fuel got in there, but again like I said earlier this is a new machine given to me in non working condition. So now it is up to me to figure out what all the previous owner 

has done to it.


----------



## Ran440 (Apr 5, 2014)

strtch5881 said:


> He said 90 psi after a shot of oil.


I kind of doubt the oil increased the compression as it was intrduced through the intake where it would go into the crankcase, not through the spark plug hole where it would coat the cylinder and rings and increase compression.


----------



## bbwb (Oct 25, 2018)

At this point, I would put the carburetor back on, fuel it up, give it a spritz of starting fluid through the spark plug hole, install the plug, and then pull it over and see if it will run. 
I have the Lawnboy Insight (same as your model, made by Toro) and the carb is crap from the factory. The plastic carburetor is a bad design and will leak. A new metal carb can be found on the net for about $20.
FWIW, I got an Echo leaf blower from my former boss in which his wife fueled it with straight gas...seized the motor. He gave it to me to putz with. I finally got the piston to move. Would not start so I tore it down. Found the cylinder was gouged, and the rings were stuck due to the piston ring grooves were smeared over the ring thus preventing compression. I ground the burrs off and freed up the rings, and took a brake hone to the cylinder wall and put it all together. The blower is still working 20 years later. It does spit some oil out the muffler and seals, but it keeps going. There is a bad gouge in the cylinder wall, but it appears to be below the ring travel distance.
So, don't give up yet.


----------



## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

What about the flywheel key? Are you sure the ignition timing is still correct?


----------



## Ran440 (Apr 5, 2014)

bbwb said:


> At this point, I would put the carburetor back on, fuel it up, give it a spritz of starting fluid through the spark plug hole, install the plug, and then pull it over and see if it will run.


That is pretty much my next plan of attack. Just gona give it a little time with the plug out and the carb off to air out / dry out since I realized how much fuel was in the crankcase.


----------



## strtch5881 (Oct 6, 2018)

Ran440 said:


> I kind of doubt the oil increased the compression as it was intrduced through the intake where it would go into the crankcase, not through the spark plug hole where it would coat the cylinder and rings and increase compression.


Very good point. The blow down during the test should still have forced some of it into the cylinder. As long as the carb is off and he could inspect it from that side, he should just pull the muffler and inspect from that side too and all questions would be answered.


----------



## Lottstodo (Feb 16, 2018)

You may want to check crank seals as a leaking seal could prevent proper fuel pick up out of lower end and continue to let more fuel build as you keep trying to start the engine, and as well impact compression. 
I had a guy hook a air hose to his compression tester as someone told him it would help remove lower end fuel accumulation and he blew the flywheel side seal out.


----------



## Grunt (Nov 11, 2013)

strtch5881 said:


> he should just pull the muffler and inspect from that side too and all questions would be answered.



I agree. All it takes is one flake of carbon buildup to get stuck on the rings and the piston and cylinder wall are scored. I also agree that leaking crank seals or case gasket can cause a weak vacuum condition.


----------



## Lottstodo (Feb 16, 2018)

I use a digital inspection camera (borro scope) on 2 strokes especially to look at cylinder condition, HF sells one for $ 75.00 I have that one that I take for out of shop mobile repair and leave the more expensive 1 only in the shop , notice I did not say better one. I have seen many engines where the cylinder is not scored too bad and sometimes not at all in piston ring travel area, but farther down in the piston skirt area as evident on the piston itself.

On these I have taken the top end down, lightly cleaned up cylinder in score area only and did the same with the presiezed piston, clean ring grooves, install rings and put it back together. Ive got stuff 15yrs old this was done to still running strong. with customer stuff I tell them what it cost for all new parts etc. if it is even worth the cost, then say we can try this and see what it runs like if all conditions are favorable.

A lifetime ago doing drag sleds we never threw away a presiezed piston as we found out that they were less likely to sieze again after being cleaned up than a new wisco piston would. 
That said I would not do this on something that I intended to sell to someone else unless I am selling it priced for such and full disclosure.


----------



## Ran440 (Apr 5, 2014)

Finally got the crankcase dried out, but no go. Remounted the carb, but did not connect the fuel line. Tried to start with starting fluid so I didn't just flood it again. Fired a couple of times, but wouldn't keep going.
So I pulled the muffler and what I found you can see in the pics.
With the piston all the way down I can see the opposite side of the cylinder and it looks nothing like the piston.
Appeared smooth and relatively ungouged.


----------



## Grunt (Nov 11, 2013)

Ran440 said:


> So my question is should I just scrap this engine or is there still hope?


:smiley-shocked033: I was hoping you had good news, but you now answered your own question.


----------



## drmerdp (Feb 9, 2014)

Oh boy. That things toast. 

Engine swap time. Donor 2stroke or big 4stroke.


----------



## Ran440 (Apr 5, 2014)

I was hoping someone would say something like ....yea the piston and rings are shot, but maybe the cylinder can be honed.
No??


----------



## Toro-8-2-4 (Dec 28, 2013)

How deep is that grove in the pic? I have had luck putting a small amount of marvel mystery oil down the spark hole of a 2 cycle. Give it some time to work in. like 30-60 minutes and then try starting it. It may free a stuck ring or create a bit of a seal to start and run for a bit and unstick it. If it works great. if not.....

A new to your used engine may be the easiest solution.


----------



## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

Without looking at the cylinder liner itself, it's hard to say. If it is minimally damaged, and the cylinder is not already worn oversize, I don't see why you could not hone it and install a new piston and rings and be back in business.


I'd pull the head, inspect, and perhaps try to hone it. Once you get the defects out, measure it and see if it's still within service limits in diameter, and if so, proceed. If not, you have only lost a small amount of time . . . Just don't order any parts until you have gone into it to determine if the cylinder can be saved . . .


If it ran that dry, the crank journal and rod may be just as bad, and then it's "law of diminishing returns" with regard to parts cost.


----------



## vinnycom (Nov 6, 2017)

Ran440 said:


> Finally got the crankcase dried out, but no go. Remounted the carb, but did not connect the fuel line. Tried to start with starting fluid so I didn't just flood it again. Fired a couple of times, but wouldn't keep going.
> So I pulled the muffler and what I found you can see in the pics.
> With the piston all the way down I can see the opposite side of the cylinder and it looks nothing like the piston.
> Appeared smooth and relatively ungouged.


from those pics the motor is done.
is it worth buying a new piston and rings and gasket and who knows what else, imo, no....maybe....idk


----------



## strtch5881 (Oct 6, 2018)

There is no honing a 2 stroke cylinder. The best you can hope for is using acid and scothbrite pads to remove the aluminum transfer from the cylinder wall. Then, if there is no gouges in the chrome, you can replace with a new piston and rings. If there is even 1 deep gouge, it will be a hard starter.
Do not waste your time and money on anything else to try to cure it. The rings are stuck and there is aluminum transfer from the piston stuck on the cylinder wall chrome.


----------



## Lottstodo (Feb 16, 2018)

Maybe I am not seeing what I think I am, but does it look like this engine has a steel cylinder sleeve. It does not look like ported aluminum.

I have seen some tecs with steel sleeved 2 stroke engines.


----------



## Ran440 (Apr 5, 2014)

vinnycom said:


> from those pics the motor is done.
> is it worth buying a new piston and rings and gasket and who knows what else, imo, no....maybe....idk



Yea the cost of parts is the biggest consideration. Don't mind doing a little extra work, but you really have to run the numbers on the parts'


Thanks for all the replies.
I think I'll set it aside for now and work on the machines that don't need quit as much work. Need to get some sold so I can pay the bills.
Let it snow, let it snow, let it snow :devil:


----------



## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

Ugh, sorry to see the condition of the internals  

I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm trying to understand: 

Why will my 4-stroke start with under 50 psi, when this won't run with 90 psi? I realize the piston & rings are hurting. But my 4-stroke also has a compression-release, resulting in even lower cylinder pressures as it tries to fire. I realize my compression release will quickly turn off, but only after the engine actually starts to run, and speeds up.


----------



## strtch5881 (Oct 6, 2018)

Total different animal. I'm not a teacher, so I would just confuse you. I would suggest youtube to see the basics of each type of engine.


----------



## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

I'm familiar with the two engine types, but that doesn't make it obvious to me how the higher compression in the 2 stroke still isn't enough to run. 

This is presumably not a diaphragm style carb, so it's not relying on crankcase vacuum/pressure pulses to run a fuel pump.

Is it because, with poor compression, leakage past the rings prevents the next intake charge from being drawn in properly through the crankcase? Meaning you don't get enough vacuum in the crankcase to keep the air moving through properly?

Would it fire with a bit of mixed gas sprayed into the plug hole? Bypassing carb/intake issues.


----------



## arienskids (Jan 26, 2018)

shes done


----------



## Bluejoe (Nov 29, 2016)

Hello I see a lot of this because fuel mix is not correct. Then small particles get sucked in thru the carb. It’s funny I have seen older 2 stroke machines that original owners bring in and some are pristine and held up throughout the years then there are the rest which come in barely running with low compression of 90. Too much time and labor. They go to junk pile. Plastic carbs if they never been off and you don’t want to purchase a new one then don’t remove them just disassemble them while on motor. We always remove exhaust and check the cylinders/piston walls. Yes when someone tries to start a hard starting engine which hasn’t been started in years it’s usually flooded with old and new gas mix. Hey Sccotts that was a good story.


----------



## strtch5881 (Oct 6, 2018)

RedOctobyr said:


> I'm familiar with the two engine types, but that doesn't make it obvious to me how the higher compression in the 2 stroke still isn't enough to run.
> 
> This is presumably not a diaphragm style carb, so it's not relying on crankcase vacuum/pressure pulses to run a fuel pump.
> 
> ...


 The only reason it has a carb with a fuel bowl is that, it is designed to be operated in an upright position.

When there is much less compression due to a scored piston and stuck rings, the fuel charge on the upstroke is forcing past the rings and out the exhaust and back into the case. The upstroke also draws fuel into the case from the carb. Downstroke also needs a good ring seal to draw the fuel up as a fine mist or fog.

Even if it would start on spray through the plug hole, the damage would continue to get worse and it would not have enough power to operate the machine.

2 stroke engines are designed with high compression to get the most power, out of the lightest engine, to make a machine light and maneuverable.

I hope this helps. What's in my head doesn't usually come out in a way others can understand it. That's why I say, "I'm not a teacher."


----------

