# 2 cycle 4 cycle performance 2 stroke 4 stroke



## snow2345ffs (Dec 20, 2015)

I made a long post here, and anyway, I've decided to get a single stage for now and probably a two stage later for big storms. 

I searched for 2 vs 4 cycles on different forums etc but didn't really read what I was thinking I would. 

Is it accurate to say the following?:
A 2 cycle will throw snow farther especially when it's powedery because a 2 stroke has much higher RPMs than a 4 cycle. But a 4 cycle has more torque to break through denser snow. A 4 cycle is quitter and less high-pitched whiny sounding (good for at nights. the 2 stroke I used last year at night was so loud and ridiculous). 

Fumes from a 4 stroke are cleaner since only gas is burned and not oil also. The EPA has mandated that all/most new snowblowers are 4 stroke for cleaner emissions. So while the 4 stroke might have some advantages, are the two strokes overall superior? i.e 2 stroke throwing distance and perhaps overall completion time and possibly not much a difference in torque to justify a 4 cycle? But 2 strokes are simply not being manufactured anymore because of emissions regulations? thank you

basically I'm between newer 179cc 4 strokes and older 1997-2002ish 141cc 2 strokes.


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## Kiss4aFrog (Nov 3, 2013)

No snowblower I can think of is direct drive. They all run through a chain or belt and no matter how fast the engine is running the impeller or paddle will have a designed RPM that the engines RPM is reduced to so a 2 cycle will be turning it's paddle or impeller at the same speed as a 4 cycle so there shouldn't be an advantage in one over the other.


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## snow2345ffs (Dec 20, 2015)

thanks, then I guess the 4 cycle is a win win, maybe a win win win, 
and the carbs for these 2 strokes I can't seem to find an aftermarket replacement and they want like $90 for them even on ebay. I didn't search too long for just carb kits but I couldn't find even those and think that eventually might need kits/replacing especially with the ethanol these days.


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## Rob711 (Feb 5, 2015)

Two strokes smell better


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## ztnoo (Nov 26, 2015)

Wonder how a 2 stroke snowblower using a castor oil mix would smell in cold brisk winter weather???








I know what that smelled like 40 years ago in the summer racing 2 stroke motorcycles.......a pretty sweet smell.......one you never forget...


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## detdrbuzzard (Jan 20, 2012)

if I were looking at new 4 stroke SS blowers it would have 200cc or more, that should give me 6 to 7hp by todays standards


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## Grunt (Nov 11, 2013)

Two cycle motors have far fewer moving parts and weigh considerably less than a four cycle motor with no oil changes necessary. Old Toro S-200 and S-620 snow blowers were two cycle and had a second lower handle bar so they could be picked up and used like a shovel to do stairs and other confined spaces. The EPA pretty much eliminated large two cycles because of emission standards and the smaller two cycles are slowly being replaced by miniature four cycles. Carb kits are still available for "most" two cycle motors I believe.

You are correct, two cycles have a higher RPM range because of the simpler design, and four cycle motors have the higher torque.


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## SnowG (Dec 5, 2014)

Grunt is right, two strokes have better power to weight ratio. That's because they are simpler, (more reliable & less expensive) and give you 1 power stroke per engine revolution versus a four cycle that gives you one power stroke for every other revolution. Of course four strokes burn cleaner, so that's why they are the wave of the future. 

As for horsepower and torque, a horsepower is a horsepower and a foot pound is a foot pound. They are just measurements.


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## 69ariens (Jan 29, 2011)

I'm gonna miss my old 2450. It was only like 60lbs compared to my new 721 at 82lbs but I won't miss the noise level and it was prone to carb freeze ups riding in the back of my truck during snow storms(boy did that rev) I don't think my old toro threw the snow more than 25' ever and if I remember right, the new toro does some thing like 35'. So now I will have to carry ramps in the truck or brake my back again But than again , I will be able to blow snow past 10pm and may be all night. 
The big dawn fall to single stage is at the end of your drive way, where the town plow made that nice windrow. Yes they can do a foot of snow but that end of drive way will not be fun.


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## snow2345ffs (Dec 20, 2015)

thanks for your replies, and I'm pretty close to pulling the trigger on a 208cc 4 cycle. They actually have one at home depot 208 cc 4cycle for only $329 (can probably find a bit cheaper elsewhere), but there's apparently no parts available for it easily, you have to call the manufacturer to get even new paddles according to the Q&A in the description. Great business plan, to make an affordable 208cc but can't get parts! I mean, I know build quality might be so so, but I run some low end machines no problems because I know how to take care of them. 
PowerSmart 21 in. Single-Stage Gas Snow Blower-DB7001 - The Home Depot

The carbs on those older 2 strokes are indeed about $80 the cheapest I found after doing a good search. I deleted the model #s of them but am %95 sure there's no aftermarket $20-$30 carbs for them. Not really the reason I decided to go with 4 stroke though. 
As one person said above, the speed of 2 vs 4 stroke might not matter in a snowblower because the auger is 'fixed' for speed but in certain machines, it might be better to have a 2 stroke and as mentioned, they're less parts and thus easier to maintain and lighter. I have several 4 stroke line trimmers that don't last nearly as long as my 2 strokes, maybe it's because I tilt them in all positions and the oil goes where it shouldn't. I just like the way they sound and cleaner burning, they're not much heavier but just happen to be designed slightly less comfortably to handle than my 2 stroke trimmers. 

I think EPA is going about this wrong to limit 2 strokes, and a lot of the ones that are still 2 strokes, you can't adjust the L H on the carb for rich/lean anymore, it's not that the screws are locked in with plastic that you can just break off or that you need a specialty bit driver to adjust them or need to dremel a slit in them to use a flat screwdriver, they just don't really allow many carbs that can be adjusted anymore, and then the new ethanol additives in gas supposedly makes carb diaphragms etc break down and fail quicker, a lot of DIYers and noobs are just junking their 2 strokes when they break and going and getting a new one, probably throwing them in the garbage pail with the gas and oil still in it. I mean, household machines, mowers etc are a drop in the ocean I think compared to emissions of everything else. I could legally go burn wood soaked in lighter fluid and newspaper with ink that burns green constantly in my yard as long as the fire pit is covered with a screen technically. Planes are far worse for emissions than trains but no one takes trains because they are for some reason like 4X the price of a plain ticket. I stopped eating meat a while ago, not trying to derail this into an anti meat thread but 
_Livestock and their byproducts account for at least 32,000 million tons of carbon dioxide (CO2) per year, or 51% of all worldwide greenhouse gas emissions._
a lot of other scary facts here, and I don't think it's at all BS.
COWSPIRACY: The Sustainability Secret

EPA should work on that, and all the presidential candidates and Obama talking about emissions and environment probably won't even bring this up, they make it so weed wackers can't adjust the carb to be fixed.


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## Manfjourde (Dec 5, 2015)

I like my Toro Power Clear 221 for powder and the old Ariens 2 stage 4hp for the heavier and chunky stuff. That 2 stroke really whines and rips through while the 4 stroke chugs along steadily.


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## 69ariens (Jan 29, 2011)

I would not buy the powersmart. I would go for a name brand like toro, simlicity , ariens or honda. The big name brands are easy to get parts for and a dealer to fix. Also I would buy at a dealer.


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## SnowG (Dec 5, 2014)

I'd stay with a machine you can get parts for, locally. If it breaks down tomorrow and there's more snow in the forecast where does that leave you? No savings there, and as for sustainability your argument seems empty if you advocate throw-away tools and equipment. (And that comment comes from another vegan who happens to agree with that sustainability argument against the beef and dairy industries.) 

Off topic rant stop reading if you don't want to go off topic: 
But while I agree with the benefits of plant based eating and mainly choose it for the health benefits (which you didn't mention) I think your political rant is a lost cause. The meat/dairy industries and farm lobbies are just too strong and its a losing battle. They (politicians) will turn a blind eye while the worlds livestock farts greenhouse gasses. After all we've got to feed the world and food choices are culturally learned, and people's beliefs about eating are strongly held. We're all experts we've been doing it all our lives and everyone we know eats too :icon_whistling:
Nuff said :smiley-confused009:


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## detdrbuzzard (Jan 20, 2012)

i wouldn't buy a powersmart either as far as old two strokes go I'm still using my 2450E which I bought new in late '99. the carb surges like most all plastic toro carbs. would I spend the money on a new carb? yes, at least its available, where are you going to get a carb for a powersmart from? I would buy a 2450 or 3650 any day before wasting money on a powermore of any size


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## NJHonda (Feb 8, 2013)

Pretty much have it nailed. Personally I would not buy a 2 stroke. The smell, noise surely does not offset its lighter weight(a few lbs?) over a 4 stroke. The new 4 strokes are whisper quiet, smooth and have tons of torque. 




snow2345ffs said:


> I made a long post here, and anyway, I've decided to get a single stage for now and probably a two stage later for big storms.
> 
> I searched for 2 vs 4 cycles on different forums etc but didn't really read what I was thinking I would.
> 
> ...


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## detdrbuzzard (Jan 20, 2012)

" Personally I would not buy a 2 stroke " 
if I were shopping for a new snowblower it wouldn't be a powersmart

some don't like 2 strokes but at the time I got my toro I don't think anyone was making a 4 stroke ss snowblower other than Honda and I knew I wanted more than 3.5hp so that was a no go. right now I'm looking for a good deal on a Honda 621 or toro 621 but it has to have electric start


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## JnC (Feb 21, 2014)

Last year someone gave me a Craftsman 521 two stroke machine that hadnt been used in over a decade. I had to spend some time bringing it up to speed i.e change drive shaft bearings and refurbish the carb. I used it all through out last winter, both at home and at work and love the fact that I could just easily pick it up and throw it in the back of the truck every day without needing ramps etc. 

The smell is annoying AT TIMES, only if I use it for a long period of time. The performance, light weight and power outweigh the smell in my opinion. 

The machine surpassed my expectations so much so that I found a similar one for work to clear side walk etc, beats shoveling.


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## detdrbuzzard (Jan 20, 2012)

i'll take one of those smelly 2 stroke ss snowblowers any day over a powersmart. I see a guy advertising daye two stage snowblowers on CL here, another brand that i'll let someone else be guinea pig for


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## Kiss4aFrog (Nov 3, 2013)

PowerSmart, It's an Amerisun product with an LCT engine.

.::AMERISUN INC::.


Sears has them on sale for $299 but when I tried searspartsdirect it didn't recognize the model number. Not sure if they're able to support it with parts or service.

http://www.sears.com/power-smart-db...p-07108879000P?prdNo=4&blockNo=4&blockType=G4

.


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## detdrbuzzard (Jan 20, 2012)

seems like good engine on a iffy snowblower


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## snow2345ffs (Dec 20, 2015)

I found out more about that powersmart. It is an LTC engine which is said to be pretty good. The single stage (and possibly dual stage) Husqvarnas use the LTC. ereplacement parts has a lot of parts for LTC engines. I found the carb on ebay for $30, carb kit for $17 shipped. The air filter I think is just a honda $4 free shipping you can find easy on ebay. The air filter housing is like $40 but who breaks the air filter housing? I wouldn't replace piston rings or anything like that if the engine breaks that bad I would just part it out, but a carb/kit and air filter and spark plug will eventually need replacing. I have a swagger tool to crimp ferrules. I crimp almost all my own wires for mowers etc. They pay for themselves after one repair instead of buying a cable for like $20. Usually the outer black plastic sleeve of the cable is still good but the inner wire breaks. I buy the wire by the foot at lowes/home depot and I grease it before putting back in the black outer sleeve so it doesn't rust out as easily. I pack the opening in the outer black plastic tube with grease so water stays out. 

The powersmart is decent. Only thing non-engine related I think might go wrong is maybe the axle would eventually bend or a wheel breaks or the auger jams with something or the chute gears ware out. You can only get parts direct from powersmart as of now and you have to call/email and get the diagram and then get call/email again for the price of the particular parts, but they said they are hopefully going to be on something like ereplacementparts or repairclinic eventually. You can also ask ebay sellers for dimensions of wheels and probably find one that fits. This is useful if powersmart has overpriced parts. 

I want my single stage to be my main machine since it clears better to the pavement and I don't need ramps to put it in the truck, but the money saved vs a new 721 toro I'm considering can go towards a dual stage for the big and/or hard snow. I'm also bitter about buying a 721 basic model for $500 from home depot because it's plus tax, and I found it online $500 tax free and free shipping from many places, and shipping must be like $50 for that big heavy box. In other words, I should be able to drive somewhere close and buy it like $440 total. I might call local toro dealers but I can imagine they have higher prices than home depot or that they can't lower the price even though they're not shipping it free because it might break an minimum MSRP clause. 


but toro parts are easy to find and they sell better down the road if you upgrade. 

the $600 toro 721 rc commercial is a waste of $100 vs the lower end one. All it has better is extended life paddles which you will need to replace eventually and you should get extended life paddle replacements off ebay and they are only $8 more for the set, so after the first change, you only saved like $8. it says it has a heavy duty drive belt but small drive belts are cheap you can get a top of the line Kevlar one on ebay for like $12 shipped in that small size, if you even need to replace it. You can just tighten the tension when it stretches. And it says it has reinforced mounting but it' sonly 2lbs heavier than the low end model so I really doubt it would matter much. And it has reflective stickers on the handles but you can get those at the dollar store and I use a headlight anyway, a reflective sticker isn't going to stop someone skidding out in the snow from hitting you while snowblowing. But here's the kicker, the commercial one, you can't fold the handles down, the low end $500 721 and all the other models, it's a simple thumb nut/knob you loosen and fold the handles down. You would have to repalce the commercial handle nuts and bolts with 4 bolts and 4 wing nuts if you want to fold the handles down without tools (think truck with bed cap or SUV/min van and doing a bunch of houses and having to fold the handle down to fit the machine under the cap so that you don't tilt it back and possibly flood the combustion chamber with fuel which can seize the machine. You can install an inline petcock and run it to stall before tilting but the engine is enclosed in the shell and you'd have to take that apart with tools also) , and the wingnuts have a tendency to vibrate loose. The lower end model and all other 721 models have a special U bolt bracket so one knob fastens two holes instead of a pair of bolts and those special U bolts are like $15 a set. It's not as if the commercial grade bolts are any sturdier, it's a gimmick. The commercial handle is "ergonomic" unlike some of the other 721s but I might actually prefer the regular handle.


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## 69ariens (Jan 29, 2011)

The ltc engine is not the issue, Its every thing else that you could have trouble getting. The toro 721 comm has thicker paddles ,reflective tape and a little more power.


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## Kiss4aFrog (Nov 3, 2013)

detdrbuzzard said:


> seems like good engine on a iffy snowblower


Have you noticed that everyone is telling you the same thing ??

What everyone is trying to tell you is the blower itself is the big question mark. How long will Amerisum support it, parts availability, cost ...
It's your choice and if you want it, buy it.

Sears has it for sale but the fact that sears has no listing for *any part for it*, (spark plug, belt, ...) should tell you something. Thinking that you can get a Amerisum part number and cross it to anything is a bit optimistic much less thinking you'll find it less expensive.
That's like thinking you might be able to get a Chevrolet part to fit a Yugo.
Maybe, but it's not because they really share anything.

I say this because I've see the other threads from guys who spent 1,500 on a nice two stage and can't get parts on the machine that year.

New machine, broke first year, can't get the part. OR . . . the closest dealer is a few states away or it's only supported by the importer or you can't even contact the manufacturer anymore and there's nothing on the internet to show they ever existed other then the machine in your garage, broken.

So again, you can grab it at Sears for 300 bucks new and if you're lucky it will run for years and years and finally the paddle will wear out somewhere down the road and maybe by then you won't care if it's repairable or not as you'll have had many good years with it serving your needs.

We are trying to tell you the dark side of getting a cheap, off brand snow blower. :blush:


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## ztnoo (Nov 26, 2015)

> *We are trying to tell you the dark side of getting a cheap, off brand snow blower.*


Well, as I see it, and I have nothing invested in this discussion or in this proposed property acquisition.........if you joined to get a good whiff of the collective experience and mindset here at the forum.......I assume you did......and you are still dead set on making this purchase, go right ahead.








Down the line, either next week, or next month, or next year......if your experience with this purchase doesn't pan out very well, I hope you'll post and say the collective wisdom was right to begin with.

If it does work out, just post and give all of us 40 lashes verbally.

I suspect you are gonna do what you want to do regardless of the advice freely given here.

Good luck!
Regards,
Steve


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## detdrbuzzard (Jan 20, 2012)

where is the link to the stanley snowblower that lasted about a half a pass


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## Grunt (Nov 11, 2013)

detdrbuzzard said:


> where is the link to the stanley snowblower that lasted about a half a pass


Here William-

http://www.snowblowerforum.com/foru...orum/7586-36-inch-stanley-already-broken.html


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## snow2345ffs (Dec 20, 2015)

I agree with you lot about the powersmart being a shady purchase. I was just saying though. And it goes to show how overpriced % two almost identical things are at $330 vs $500. With the toro, you get guarantee of parts, at least for the first 10 years or so I'd say. Powersmart and the parts might be non existent in 5 years. 



EDIT: I heard back from amerisun aka powersmart for pricing. It's not overpriced like I thought. At least for these parts. They sent me the parts diagram and I had to ask again for three prices.
DB7001 parts
V belt - $20.00
Shave - $ 20.00
Rubber Auger - $15.00

They said $10 flat rate shipping but if you order a heavy part like auger bucker, that might just mean it's overpriced but who even breaks that part? I can see someone breaking the auger though by not using the correct shear pins for ~$5.


The DB7001 is a decent machine. the bad reviews aren't so analytical. The older 7653 gets bad reviews like clogging chute but the newer DB7001 is basically the same design as the toro 721 everyone likes. I would spend the extra $170 for a toro just because they are so popular they have complete kits on ebay for paddles and scrapers for less than amerisun and less hassle to order. Plus that pivoting toro scraper. 


If someone really wants a 200+cc though without spending $500 on the toro, I think the powersun would be ok for $329 from sears or online price matched by home depot. I do other houses so in two storms I might use the machine more than someone would in a year for their house. Things besides the paddles and scraper and belt still _could _break so for $170 more I like the assurance of the $500 toro 721 and possibility of finding used parts for less. But then I would really want to get the $620 version with the ez chute control but then I'm almost at the cost of buying two powersmarts.


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