# Does Anyone know what this hardware piece is keeping the small gear from coming off?



## orangputeh (Nov 24, 2016)

Trying to rebuild this right side tranny gear case on a WHEELED HS928. Have done a bunch of tracked machines and never seen this hardware piece before holding the 11T small gear.

The bearing blew behind the gear. All I have to do is remove case.

On a tracked hydro the end of shaft has a small 2-3 mm hole. no threads. 
Maybe this hardware piece is pressed on? I cant get a puller between piece and gear and dont want to damage it.
The back part of piece has tiny ridges. I dont think it is part of the shaft but may be wrong. The gear will not slip off. It is being held on by this piece by a mm or less.

just dont want to damage anything but force. 

Wondering if any Honda techs know what this is and how to remove. All the Honda diagrams for this WHEELED right side transmission gearcase does NOT show this part.

the piece in question is on the end of the SMALL 11T gear in picture. Maybe @ST1100A . @tabora , or someone else knows?

thanks gang,


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## orangputeh (Nov 24, 2016)

could i be mistaken that this is a hardware piece and just part of hydro shaft? would I just need to pull gear off? thought of that but it feels that the gear is being held on by this end. I don't want to damage anything and reach the point of no return.


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## JLawrence08648 (Jan 15, 2017)

I've never worked on Hondas. Just a mechanical opinion. Are you talking about the cone shape piece with the raised burrs? If so it looks like part of the shaft, a continuous piece. It may be a dual use piece used on another model or different piece if equipment, maybe not even Honda, made by a parts manufacturer to be shipped to someone else for their machine, or was going to be used and never did and using the remainder of stock. Does the gear pull off or maybe the gear and shaft are one piece and you'll have to disconnect from the other side. My opinion, read my liability disclosures on my website, if you can find it. I've never been held accountable so why should I start now.


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## Rooskie (Feb 12, 2015)

JLawrence08648 said:


> ........ or maybe the gear and shaft are one piece and you'll have to disconnect from the other side.


That's what I fear. Is that even possible?


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## Preacherman (Dec 20, 2020)

I am not an expert but it looks like the dust seal on the tracked version. Part #15. Channel locks to remove it I would think.


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## orangputeh (Nov 24, 2016)

JLawrence08648 said:


> I've never worked on Hondas. Just a mechanical opinion. Are you talking about the cone shape piece with the raised burrs? If so it looks like part of the shaft, a continuous piece. It may be a dual use piece used on another model or different piece if equipment, maybe not even Honda, made by a parts manufacturer to be shipped to someone else for their machine, or was going to be used and never did and using the remainder of stock. Does the gear pull off or maybe the gear and shaft are one piece and you'll have to disconnect from the other side. My opinion, read my liability disclosures on my website, if you can find it. I've never been held accountable so why should I start now.


appreciate your opinion. ya. wish I could take it off from other side but can't. you may be right and it is actually part of shaft and maybe the gear just pulls off. just dont want to try if it does permanent damage. have learned that the hardway. 

was hoping someone here had experience with wheeled units. I have done about 10 of these gearbox rebuilds on tracked units.

I removed engine so it is really light and easy to move around. just may take to the dealer and le their head mechanic look at it. He told me he has done a couple hundred of these. must have done some wheeled units in that bunch.


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## Big Ed (Feb 10, 2013)

orangputeh said:


> appreciate your opinion. ya. wish I could take it off from other side but can't. you may be right and it is actually part of shaft and maybe the gear just pulls off. just dont want to try if it does permanent damage. have learned that the hardway.
> 
> was hoping someone here had experience with wheeled units. I have done about 10 of these gearbox rebuilds on tracked units.
> 
> I removed engine so it is really light and easy to move around. just may take to the dealer and le their head mechanic look at it. He told me he has done a couple hundred of these. must have done some wheeled units in that bunch.


How about just take the picture to ask them instead of the whole machine?


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## GT14 (Feb 12, 2011)

It may be threaded on (maybe LH) try holding the gear and jamming a 12 point socket on it. Also check in that hole to see if there might be an Allen bolt down in there.


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## JnC (Feb 21, 2014)

Could just be epoxy that someone left on there or worse welded the shaft to make sure the gear stays on, there is no extra part that goes on there beside the spacer/washer. Unless thats whats left of the spacer/washer I think its just corrosion. I have rebuilt dozens of these and am working on a HS828 wheeled unit as we speak thats a 1990 model, the earliest HS828 that i could think of and even that one doesnt have anything of this nature on there, I have seen folks weld stuff in the gear box such as countershafts, gears etc to make the machine work. As one of my favorite youtuber "Vehcor" would say " someone's been here before".


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## tabora (Mar 1, 2017)

orangputeh said:


> the piece in question is on the end of the SMALL 11T gear in picture.


Maybe this?

23234-767-C10BUSH, CROSS SHAFT


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## orangputeh (Nov 24, 2016)

tabora said:


> Maybe this?
> 
> 23234-767-C10BUSH, CROSS SHAFT


wish it were. that is a plastic bushing that goes into the side of engine bed cover for that small 11t gear.


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## deezlfan (Nov 8, 2017)

Can you get closer to the gear with the camera? Can't see squat in that photo.


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

There is a washer between the gear and the plastic bushing.
The washer is a 12mm X 23mm x 2mm part # 905-99767-C10
It is a very thin thrust type washer.
Some of the parts like the washer look worn in the picture.
The gear should just pull off but the washer might be torn up a bit causing the gear to be difficult to remove.


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

It looks like the shaft has a small groove in it. You can see the splines on the shaft at the end. The tiny hole in the end of the shaft is there to put the shaft in a lathe to machine it.
The shaft is all one piece, that 'end piece' is part of the shaft. The gear just slides on it, nothing holding it in place.
The gear splines and shaft splines can get worn and make the gear get stuck on the shaft. You have to work with it trying to press or pull it off.


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

tabora said:


> Maybe this?
> 
> 23234-767-C10BUSH, CROSS SHAFT


The bushing usually sits in the side of the frame, that is the plastic bushing.


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## orangputeh (Nov 24, 2016)

ST1100A said:


> There is a washer between the gear and the plastic bushing.
> The washer is a 12mm X 23mm x 2mm part # 905-99767-C10
> It is a very thin thrust type washer.
> Some of the parts like the washer look worn in the picture.
> The gear should just pull off but the washer might be torn up a bit causing the gear to be difficult to remove.


yes. this picture is horrible. I already took washer off. Maybe @JnC is right and this is a ******* "fix"

I tried pulling it off. It stops by that cap piece. I'll try to get a better picture. The cap is slightly wider than gear. It's almost 10mm wide by about 10mm deep. I'll put a caliper on it. It is not welded on. It seems like it may be pressed on.

Unless it is just the end of hydro shaft but never have seen anything like this. Probably will take to dealer. The head mechanic said he has done at least 100 of these.


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

That is the end of the hydro shaft. The splines might be messed up causing difficulties in removing the gear from the shaft.


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## orangputeh (Nov 24, 2016)

ST1100A said:


> It looks like the shaft has a small groove in it. You can see the splines on the shaft at the end. The tiny hole in the end of the shaft is there to put the shaft in a lathe to machine it.
> The shaft is all one piece, that 'end piece' is part of the shaft. The gear just slides on it, nothing holding it in place.
> The gear splines and shaft splines can get worn and make the gear get stuck on the shaft. You have to work with it trying to press or pull it off.


i get it. the gear moves freely on shaft splines. that end part is wider that splines on gear. the end part does not look abused, hit with hammer or anything. will try a smaller puller to get in there and try pulling off.


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

Check the inner hole of the washer to see if it is torn up, it could be bits of it in the splines causing it to jam up in the splines


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## orangputeh (Nov 24, 2016)

ST1100A said:


> That is the end of the hydro shaft. The splines might be messed up causing difficulties in removing the gear from the shaft.


so it is different between a wheeled shaft and track hydro shaft then? I have worked with many many hydro static trannies and none had this kind of end.


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

you might have to pull the whole case off to get the bearing to force the gear off the shaft


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

maybe the washer wore a groove in the shaft, they are usually the same drive shaft


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

drive shaft spins in opposite directions when going forward on the wheel drive compared to the track drive. The track drive uses a countershaft in the case, the wheel drive only has the driveshaft and wheel axle, they use different cases


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

'Drive Shaft' - 'Hydrostatic Transmission Cross Shaft'


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## groomerz (Feb 7, 2015)

I splines are larger at end preventing gear from coming off. Could you file them down a bit. As splines under gear would be preserved


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

The wheel drive and track drive use different cross shafts that go into the right side gearbox


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

orangputeh said:


> so it is different between a wheeled shaft and track hydro shaft then? I have worked with many many hydro static trannies and none had this kind of end.


Yes, they are different shafts. Even the whole Hydro unit is different between the wheel and track drive.
The cross shaft that goes to the right side gear box spins in opposite directions from each other when going forward or reverse.
A track might spin clockwise going forward, a wheel drive would spin counterclockwise going forward.


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## orangputeh (Nov 24, 2016)

orangputeh said:


> so it is different between a wheeled shaft and track hydro shaft then? I have worked with many many hydro static trannies and none had this kind of end.


first pic is the hydro shaft I always work with .
second pic shows the end of this shaft wheeled unit. i pushed the gear back about half a inch. you can see that the bea














ring is totally gone. there is about a 3-4mm gap between the shaft splines and the end there. the gear hits that end piece and will not slide off.


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

That looks like the washer cut a groove into the shaft. Thats going to take some pulling to get it off. You can see where it messed up the splines.
You will need a puller to get it off and while pulling it off, it may ruin the splines on the gear or re-cut the splines on the shaft so it slides back on easier.
Worst case, you will have to replace the cross shaft in the hydro unit.


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## Rooskie (Feb 12, 2015)

ST1100A said:


> That looks like the washer cut a groove into the shaft. Thats going to take some pulling to get it off. You can see where it messed up the splines.
> You will need a puller to get it off and while pulling it off, it may ruin the splines on the gear or re-cut the splines on the shaft so it slides back on easier.
> Worst case, you will have to replace the cross shaft in the hydro unit.


By Golly, that could be it!


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

If he can get the gear off and clean up the shaft, file it, sand it, he could probably re-use the shaft. I've seen worse than that happen on other shafts and they were salvageable.


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## Rooskie (Feb 12, 2015)

orangputeh said:


> first pic is the hydro shaft I always work with .
> second pic shows the end of this shaft wheeled unit. i pushed the gear back about half a inch. you can see that the bea
> View attachment 176378
> 
> ...


Slide a small file in the cut and smooth off the metal where the washer wore through. Maybe it will allow it to slide off once the boogered metal at each side of the cut is smoothed out.


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## tabora (Mar 1, 2017)

Maybe use a Dremel with a small S/S brush to clean up the mess in the splines a bit before pulling the gear?


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## JayzAuto1 (Jul 25, 2016)

I've used a Dremel with the small cut-off wheels.....The Quick-Lok type wheels. That can clean up the splines, allowing the gear to slide off the shaft. Cut/Grind/Shape WITH the splines, not against them. And maybe the groove will now accept a C-Clip to hold the gear on again.



https://www.lowes.com/pd/Dremel-6-Piece-Steel-1-1-2-in-Cutting-Wheel-Accessory-Kit/999982150?cm_mmc=shp-_-c-_-prd-_-tol-_-google-_-lia-_-106-_-rotaryandoscillatingtools-_-999982150-_-0&placeholder=null&ds_rl=1286981&gclid=Cj0KCQiA7NKBBhDBARIsAHbXCB7uZ2CS0yOc76i3mWMzes3Mgf12gON-QYULNjE9pUk56W5B0S5kF3AaAv7WEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds



This is the style I use in the Dremel. Pretty effective for detail work.


GLuck, Jay


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## WrenchIt (Dec 6, 2020)

At first I thought there was knurling on the end of the shaft, and that part of it unscrewed. Now I realize that we might have a better idea of what is causing the problem if the shaft and gear were sprayed with brake or carb cleaner and all the grease and **** were removed (I'm guessing the gear can be pushed back far enough to reveal the problem). When I compare the first pic w/ the one above (post 28) I see no real difference in the gear's position, yet the gear has been pushed inward 1/2"?


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## Preacherman (Dec 20, 2020)

orangputeh said:


> first pic is the hydro shaft I always work with .
> second pic shows the end of this shaft wheeled unit. i pushed the gear back about half a inch. you can see that the bea
> View attachment 176378
> View attachment 176379
> ring is totally gone. there is about a 3-4mm gap between the shaft splines and the end there. the gear hits that end piece and will not slide off.


Wow what a difference, a different perspective look. It makes sense now


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

They don't use a retaining ring on the end of the shaft.
The bearing keeps the gear in place on the one side, the thrust washer and plastic bushing keeps it in place on the frame side.
The gear can float form side to side a little bit which is what it is supposed to do, it doesn't move much at all but needs side clearance because of temperature changes and any 'Flexing' encountered.
The groove would be cut into the shaft when the washer didn't rotate with the shaft, it remained stationary and cut the groove into the shaft.
The washer is harder steel than the shaft is. The washer is meant to wear up against the gear, metal to metal, on one side, the other side it rides up against the plastic bushing which is softer and acts like a 'Teflon Dry Lubricated' part even though there is grease in there to lubricate it.
The end of the shaft sticks into the plastic bushing, then the gear, then supported by a ball bearing in the gear case housing, then out to the hydrostatic transmission where it is supported again by a ball bearing.


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

Orangputeh,
I should mention, the shaft you have is called the 'Cross Shaft'.
What is does is it 'Crosses' from left side frame panel to right side frame panel mounting in the engine bed or side main frames, or 'Tractor Frame'.
It connects the Hydrostatic transmission to the right side gear box as you know.
The shaft is supported on both sides by ball bearings, one on the left frame side, one in the right side gear case as it enters the case. It has two ball bearings in the Hydrostatic transmission case to support it.
At the very end on the right side it is supported by the plastic bushing, but it really doesn't have much of a 'Load' on it there because the right side gear case bearing supports it there on the right side.
Now, if the 'Tractor' frame or main chassis frame, engine bed frame or what ever you would want to call it, is twisted in any way, as it bolts together, it could cause a problem at the very end where the shaft mounts into the right side frame. It may not be perfectly 'Square' or lined up properly with the plastic bushing and it could cause the thrust washer to 'Jam' and not turn or float properly causing it to 'Cut' into the shaft. Another thing if it wasn't lined up properly, it could wear out the plastic bushing and actually 'Tear' itself into the part of the frame that holds the plastic bushing, and the edge of the frame would do damage to both the bushing, shaft, and thrust washer if everything is not 'Square' and lined up properly, meaning the tractor frame being twisted out of line which can happen in odd circumstances.
That is all a possibility that you want to check on and if you find any other items mentioned that show signs of wear as mentioned, you want to check on the frame alignment.
Also check to make sure the right side gear case is bolted tight to the right frame so that didn't move out of position causing any kind of 'miss-alignment' of the cross-shaft at the right end.
Let us know how you make out with it when you get the job done.


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## orangputeh (Nov 24, 2016)

Thanks everyone for advice. I'm going to clean up end of shaft and use my mini files to cut clean edges so maybe that gear will slide off.

There is damage. As the pic shows , the bearing behind the gear is totally GONE. There are pieces everywhere in the gear box. The previous owner obviously ignored any tell tale signs of a problem and continued using the machine until it wouldn t go anymore.

I really like working this wheeled RST for the first time. It only took me 10-15 minutes to get to this point. Was delayed yesterday because we took an all day trip to see family.

Will be back at it today and will report back , of course , with any updates. 

I knew you guys would come thru for me with this unusual problem. My main concern was going to far and doing damage I could not come back from. Have done that in the past.


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## orangputeh (Nov 24, 2016)

ST1100A said:


> Orangputeh,
> I should mention, the shaft you have is called the 'Cross Shaft'.
> What is does is it 'Crosses' from left side frame panel to right side frame panel mounting in the engine bed or side main frames, or 'Tractor Frame'.
> It connects the Hydrostatic transmission to the right side gear box as you know.
> ...


Well guys , That was about a 10 minute job removing the gear after I clean up that end with dremel and files as some of you suggested.

Used my small shankly puller and it came right off.

Like mentioned before I didnt wanna screw it up so badly that i would be in big trouble on this repair. Better safe than sorry. have learned this lesson the hard way......of course in the past. 

Thanks again.LOVE this group and am happy to learn something new.


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## orangputeh (Nov 24, 2016)

Now , all i have to do is replace the bearings, clean everything up.and put back together. no damage on gears .


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## Big Ed (Feb 10, 2013)

orangputeh said:


> Now , all i have to do is replace the bearings, clean everything up.and put back together. no damage on gears .


And now you know.
Put that in the notebook. Or your memory banks for the future.
Popped right off, I love a happy ending. 😁


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## mikeinri (Mar 16, 2015)

No in-process pics? You were definitely afraid of leaving incriminating evidence, lol...

Nice job. I'm with you 100%, I hate it when I rush and make a bigger problem for myself. 

Mike


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## orangputeh (Nov 24, 2016)

mikeinri said:


> No in-process pics? You were definitely afraid of leaving incriminating evidence, lol...
> 
> Nice job. I'm with you 100%, I hate it when I rush and make a bigger problem for myself.
> 
> Mike


ha. you want a pic of the hydro shaft minus the gear? i'm a little embarrassed on how easy it was. but have learned the hard way about guessing on a repair. it's always nice to bounce questions off the brain trust of SBF members.

it's beer o'clock now.


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## cpchriste (Jan 19, 2014)

orangputeh said:


> Now , all i have to do is replace the bearings, clean everything up.and put back together. no damage on gears .


No wear on the shaft where the vaporized bearing mounted?


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## orangputeh (Nov 24, 2016)

cpchriste said:


> No wear on the shaft where the vaporized bearing mounted?


will give that a good inspection.thanks.


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## orangputeh (Nov 24, 2016)

This wheeled right side tranny is 10 times easier than the tracked model. Took 10-15 minutes to open it all up , less moving parts and easier assembly. 

Plus am installing a grease zerk . new bearings, new bushings , etc. should be good for another 30 years ( knock on wood )


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