# Toro to go with all Chinese engines next year.



## sscotsman (Dec 8, 2010)

Looks official..Toro is the first to go.
Starting next winter, Toro will have Chinese engines on all snowblower models.
news from another forum:

Any new snowblowers out for 2012

Sometime in the next few years we will probably see the last 100% American made snowblower..
get them while you can, they are fading fast.









Scot


----------



## twofishy4u (Dec 6, 2011)

I think a lot of the Briggs engines and Briggs designed engines are made in china now. Too bad. Most blowers are only tested at 100hours use. That is all they need them to last to go on the market. Simplicity Pro's go over 200. Nothing like those old ariens machines built anymore. Just sold a '78 sno-thro 724. What a great blower...easy to work on, built tough, nice paint. Happy new owner.


----------



## sscotsman (Dec 8, 2010)

twofishy4u said:


> I think a lot of the Briggs engines and Briggs designed engines are made in china now.


yes, that has been known for some time..
not sure exactly when B&S started making some smaller engines in China, but it was sometime in the last 5-10 years..

Up until 2008, 90% of american-made snowblowers were 100% American made..both the snowblower itself and the engine..This was before Tecumseh quit the small engine business in late 2008. (All Tecumseh snowblower engines were made in the USA) In the past three years, that ratio of 100% American made has dropped quickly..right now its probably about 50/50..in another few years, depending on what Briggs does, it might be 0% that are 100% American made..if all engine manufacturing moves to China..

As of right now, the only snowblowers that are still 100% American made are the American brands with the larger Briggs engines..the smaller Briggs engines have already been made in China for several years..this is believed to be the current status:

Briggs & Stratton 205cc 900 series - Made in China
Briggs & Stratton 249cc 1150 series - Made in China
Briggs & Stratton 305cc 1450 series - Made in the USA
Briggs & Stratton 342cc 1550 series - Made in the USA
Briggs & Stratton 342cc 1650 series - Made in the USA 

So only those three larger Briggs engines are still made in the USA.
On a new snowblower this year, if its not a Briggs 1450, 1550 or 1650 series engine, its not an American made engine. those are the only three choices.

(im planning to record all this info on my webpage!  to keep track of these things for posterity..)

As of this model year, 2012 model year, winter of 2011/2012, only these names, with those three larger Briggs engines, are still 100% made in the USA machines:

*Ariens

Toro*

MTD, makes:
*Cub Cadet
Troy Bilt
Craftsman*
(MTD also makes the "Yard Machines" line..but none have American engines)

Briggs & Stratton, makes:
*John Deere
Simplicity
Snapper
Brute*
(Briggs also owns the Murray name, but Murray branded snowblowers are no longer being made..
although Murray designs live on in some of the lower-end current B&S models)


I think thats it..probably not complete! but its close..
Nine "names" from four manufacturers in the USA.
and starting next winter, assuming its true, (which it appears to be)
Toro will be off the list.

(and NONE of these manufacturers have a complete lineup that is 100% made in the USA anymore..we havent seen that for 10 years at least..all have *some* chinese engines now, and have for several years..)

I read that Husqvarna (also makes the Polan line) might be dropping out of the snowblower business next year..im not sure if that has been confirmed or not..also, they are using only Chinese engines this year.

Scot


----------



## [email protected] (Nov 21, 2011)

For the Honda line-up, here are some details:

HS520A series single stage snowblower GC-series engines (160cc) are cast and frames are built at the Honda Power Equipment Manufacturing plant in Swepsonville, North Carolina. 

The HS724, HS928, and HS1332 2-stage snowblower GX-series engines (200~390cc) are cast and built in Thailand, and frames and final assembly are made in Japan.

The HS1336i Hybrid (iGX-series 390cc) engine and snowblower frame is made in Japan.

FYI, Honda supplies Honda engines to other generator, mower, tiller, etc. companies who bolt them onto their frames. The one exception is snowblowers; only Honda snowblowers have Honda engines. 

Caveat: I work for Honda, but the preceding was my opinion alone.


----------



## Simplicity (Dec 8, 2011)

What we all need to do is stop speculating about these china motors, get our hands on one and stress test it. How many of you from this board would put a few dollars in to get our hands on this motor and put it through its paces? I would def be down. I can't deal with the b/s and marketing they have on these engines I want real world data!


----------



## HCBPH (Mar 8, 2011)

*Misc*

Not just engines, have you checked out replacement parts lately? Bearings from China, condensors from Taiwan, bushings from Thailand - you get the picture. US company labeled parts made overseas. Even our 100% American machines likely have foreign parts in them if they've been serviced in the past.

Went to get some parts the other week, partsman said if I needed a coil it would be 6 weeks plus before he could get one due to some situation overseas.

Not saying it's good, not saying it's bad. Just know that parts also are changing from what we knew in where they are made or acquired from.


----------



## Simplicity (Dec 8, 2011)

Like I said in another post in a differnet thread and coming from a person involved in American manufacturing its pathetic that we whored ourselves out to China it really is. Mine as well make the whole unit there already you took the heart and soul and gave it to some country that uses slave labor and oppression, is this really the American way?


----------



## bwdbrn1 (Nov 24, 2010)

Robert Coats said:


> For the Honda line-up, here are some details:
> 
> HS520A series single stage snowblower GC-series engines (160cc) are cast and frames are built at the Honda Power Equipment Manufacturing plant in Swepsonville, North Carolina.
> 
> ...


Thanks for making Honda's details clear for us Robert. Any chance the HS622 will make it's way back into the U.S. market?


----------



## twofishy4u (Dec 6, 2011)

A good friend designs and engineers at Briggs. He does testing after they build the product. Most snowblowers are made for 100hrs of use now without a major failure. After that good luck. Simplicity pros are tested over twice the others he does. BTW doesn't briggs own MTD now too? They are kind of a monopoly of the small engine world lately.


----------



## Simplicity (Dec 8, 2011)

hmm all this talk about engines going to china this that and the considlated manufacturing makes me want to start building engines in the USA.


----------



## sscotsman (Dec 8, 2010)

twofishy4u said:


> BTW doesn't briggs own MTD now too?


No, MTD is still MTD, not associated with Briggs..
Briggs now owns and builds the snowblower lines for:

John Deere
Snapper
Simplicity
Murray
Brute

This all happened about 2005.
Murray badged snowblowers are no longer being made.

Simplicity was one of the most respected, highest quality names in snowblowers for many decades..it looks like the "high end" and "pro" models for Deere, Snapper and Simplicity are the classic Simplicity designs, while the more "entry level" machines are ancestral Murray designs..

"Brute" seems to be a new badge Briggs came out with recently..not sure why..but they are the same machines as the other Briggs brand names.

Scot


----------



## sscotsman (Dec 8, 2010)

Ah! here we go..I just found some good and reliable data on another forum..
this was posted by "snowmann" who posts on several of the forums, and is known to work for one of the manufacturers..since its on another forum, I wont quote it directly, but here is the summary:

MTD uses Zongshen.
Toro uses Loncin. 
Ariens and Husqvarna use Briggs and LCT. 

(end of summary from snowmann)

Since Husqvarna says "Snow King" and we know "Snow King" was Tecumseh, its safe to assume there is a Tecumseh/LCT relationship. There is probably no Briggs-LCT relationship, considering Briggs has been making their own engines in China for quite some time..(10 years at least)

So..wrapping this all up, looks like 5 distinct "sites" and 4 manufacturers making snowblower engines as of this winter:

Zongshen (China) engines for MTD
Loncin (China) engines for Toro
LCT (China) engines for Ariens and Husqvarna
Briggs (China) engines for Ariens and Husqvarna
Briggs (USA) - the last engines made in America, on some Ariens and Husky models.

and..I cant seem to find any Briggs engines being used on current MTD snowblowers..
Cub Cadet, Troy Bilt, etc..none of them list Briggs engines on any of their current machines on their webpages! which means..the whole thing about Toro being the "first to go with all Chinese engines next year"..it might have already happened THIS year! with MTD! man, this is crazy..

Scot


----------



## sscotsman (Dec 8, 2010)

Im going to go out and visit dealers during the upcoming week..
I plan to visit Cub Cadet, Troy Bilt (I expect them to be the same, both MTD)
Toro and Husqvarna dealers..(I already know the status of Ariens)

Check machines, engines, get brochures, in person..try to nail this all down once and for all..
I will report back..

Scot


----------



## twofishy4u (Dec 6, 2011)

holy engine list!!!! Nice to know MTD is still family owned. I always confuse MTD and Murray. Glad I only deal with the older stuff with Tecumseh's on them.


----------



## [email protected] (Nov 21, 2011)

bwdbrn1 said:


> Any chance the HS622 will make it's way back into the U.S. market?


Right now, there are no plans to offer this model in the USA. Of course, that could change tomorrow! I think the HS622TCS may still be offered by Honda Canada, but their website is down right now and I can't confirm. I know they used to offer both the pull and also 120V electric start versions.

Caveat: I work for Honda, but the preceding was my opinion alone.


----------



## bwdbrn1 (Nov 24, 2010)

Yep, the Canadians are still lucky enough to get them, and most of Europe as well. I don't know what sort of hoops you'd have to jump through to bring one across the border. The European version has an extension to the auger housing that looks like it would be great to have, but there's no getting it here in the U.S. to fit ones sold here. Personally, I think the HS622 would be a better model to import than the Hybrid, but then, I'm not a business major, so what do I know.


----------



## Simplicity (Dec 8, 2011)

bwdbrn1 said:


> Yep, the Canadians are still lucky enough to get them, and most of Europe as well. I don't know what sort of hoops you'd have to jump through to bring one across the border. The European version has an extension to the auger housing that looks like it would be great to have, but there's no getting it here in the U.S. to fit ones sold here. Personally, I think the HS622 would be a better model to import than the Hybrid, but then, I'm not a business major, so what do I know.


What if you bought a machine in Canada and brought it across the border?


----------



## ddrink (Dec 1, 2010)

sscotsman said:


> Since Husqvarna says "Snow King" and we know "Snow King" was Tecumseh, its safe to assume there is a Tecumseh/LCT relationship.


 
The company that bought Tecumseh in 2009, partnered with the US branch of LCT. They are now making "Snow King" engines under the LCT brand.


----------



## Marcintosh (Dec 21, 2011)

*JD machines.*



sscotsman said:


> MTD, makes:
> *Cub Cadet
> Troy Bilt
> Craftsman*
> ...


*The John Deere line* -

*10hp and up* = 
SimpleCity chassis from the Signature Pro and of course the same B&S engine The handles are round/tubular instead of channeled sheet steel.

*Under 10 hp* =
100% Murray and I have no idea what engine because I was willing to take my parts mans word for it.

I was surprised to see I could just unbolt parts from the big machine and snap them on my simplicity sig pro.

Next year JD is going ALL Honda - they want out of the market I guess.


----------

