# Troy-Bilt/Yard Machines and Powermore/Chinese engines. NEVER AGAIN



## Fruggy

Troy-Bilt Storm 2410 Chinese engine and Yard Machines walk-behind with same Chinese engine.

It will not start. I did what the manual told me to do: drain gas during storage and use fresh fuel the next season. Troy-Bilt insisted that the engine problems are my fault so they wont' do warranty work. They didn't ask questions and made the assumption I used ethanol fuel (Idiots at Troy-Bilt put a sign on the gas cap stating it is OK to use E-10). I have proof that the Mobil gas station I go to does not accept fuel with ethanol in it. I had to pay $40 for a new carburetor. Troy-Bilt is a junk company. Consumer Reports magazine named them the most problematic. 

Same problem with my one-year-old Yard Machines mower with a Chinese engine. I drained the fuel during storage and put in fresh gas when it was time to start. Engine ran very poorly and eventually did not start. They refused to fix the problem stating that it was my fault for negligence. 

Troy-Bilt and Yard Machines warranty is a scam.

No Chinese engines anymore and no more MTD products. Now I'm hearing Chinese-made Briggs & Stratton engines and Kohler engines are junk, too.

Remember when America used to make very reliable small engines regardless of the quality of fuel and when you never did any maintenance??!?! I miss those days! All of you on here who bought a newer MTD product have been scammed.


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## YSHSfan

Most small engines are made in China this days (if I am not mistaken even most Ariens have Chinese engines). 
You may have to get a different product with a US made engine, or a Honda. 
It is odd that it would had happenned to both of them though.

I think that perhaps most manufacturers would not cover carburetor clean up (or replacement) if it is caused by ethanol (that is what I was told when I purchased my Stihl chainsaw and backpack blower).


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## Kiss4aFrog

It's a bit much to condemn an entire manufacturer and country for* one *machines problem(s).
My poorly maintained, hand me down 2008 2410 starts easy, runs well and hasn't let me down once.
It does have the common problem of being too lean and surging when not eating snow. That said just because mine runs good doesn't make me want to say it's the best just like having one machine with a problem shouldn't condemn the manufacturer or product.


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## Kensico

Mechanic in a bottle works pretty good without taking off the carb. Try it if it happens again


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## 94EG8

I'd like to preface this post by stating that I used to work as a tech for a small engine shop that did a ton of warranty work for MTD and Craftsman. I've probably worked on more outdoor power equipment than 95% of the people on this forum. I've worked on hundreds of small engines from Briggs & Stratton, Tecumseh, Kohler, Honda, Kawasaki, and various Chinese Honda clones. I'm not saying this to seem arrogant, simply to state that I have a much larger sample size to go by when looking for things like pattern failures.

Those Chinese Powermore engines are great. They're far quieter, more efficient, start easier, run better and are more reliable than those old Tecumsehs ever were. The single biggest problem with any small engine today is the fuel. Even the ethanol free gas just isn't the same as gas used to be. Put current gas in one of those old, reliable, American engines and it'll act just as bad (and usually worse) than one of those Chinese engines.

Now that said MTD does have a horrible warranty, but the problems you're having aren't normally covered by anyone's warranty. It's not a manufacturer's defect, so it really doesn't fall under the warranty. If you want my honest opinion of the best way to prevent this from happening in the future do this: When it gets *near the end of the season* starting adding fuel stabilizer to the jerry can *when you buy gas.* After the last use of the season put the machine away with a full tank. If you drain the tank it just seems to make the carb corrode and end up full of white powder.


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## russkat

It's a pity the Troy Bilt name no longer means top of the line, quality machines.
Back in the day, when the were owned by Garden Way, their rototillers were ranked one of the best you could buy. They even had a lifetime warranty on some of the components.
When I sold my Garden Way built Horse tiller last spring, I cleaned it up and it sold for $900.00 in a matter of hours. MTD bought them in 2001 and you know the rest of the story.


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## micah68kj

I'll probably get some blowback on this comment but ( this is solely my personal opinion) I would never drain fuel system and run the carburetor dry. I always use stabilized fuel (Startron and Seafoam) and never any problems. I will add this that if the gasoline is already old by the end of of the season whether it be snowblower or lawnmower etc, I will drain that old gas and add fresh, stabilized gas and run the engine fr a few minutes. 
As I first stated, this is my way of avoiding carb issues and I've always lived by if it aint broke don't fix it advice.

This past year I didn't do this. I just left the old gas in the blowers qnd they all started a few days ago. The gas that was in them wasn't very old.


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## micah68kj

russkat said:


> It's a pity the Troy Bilt name no longer means top of the line, quality machines.
> Back in the day, when the were owned by Garden Way, their rototillers were ranked one of the best you could buy.


True. And this can be said of so many companies. I sure do miss those days of those homey magazine ads that made you feel good about their product, your country and life overall. So many wonderful brands have been compromised. 
Wheel Horse, Troy Bilt, Briggs, Kohler, Porter Cable, etc..
Lay the blame wherever you choose whether it be corporate greed, business economics, govt. overregulation or simple necessity... The day of buying a piece of ope and expecting it to last a lifetime is gone forever.


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## sscotsman

Kiss4aFrog said:


> It's a bit much to condemn an entire manufacturer and country for* one *machines problem(s).


That is true..but we also get the opposite here in this forum all the time:
"my one Chinese harbor freight engine has been great..therefore all Chinese engines are great." it happens both ways!  as always, the truth is somewhere in the middle. 

also, he isn't basing it on one machine, he is basing it on two.

Scot


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## micah68kj

Seems those chinese "powermore" engines are "power_less". _:banghead:


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## wdb

I'm struck by the fact that two different motors sitting in the same storage area and serviced the same way had the same problem. It tends to lead me away from the "chinese junk" theory and towards other possible causes. Just sayin'.


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## Fruggy

wdb said:


> I'm struck by the fact that two different motors sitting in the same storage area and serviced the same way had the same problem. It tends to lead me away from the "chinese junk" theory and towards other possible causes. Just sayin'.


Try reading about other people's experiences. It's almost the same as mine.


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## Fruggy

Kensico said:


> Mechanic in a bottle works pretty good without taking off the carb. Try it if it happens again


About going to try this, thanks.


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## Kiss4aFrog

sscotsman said:


> he isn't basing it on one machine, he is basing it on two.
> 
> Scot


True, but the second one is a mower so I wasn't counting it. That belongs over in MLF :2cool:


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## Fruggy

This country is going downhill. I remember buying something in the 80's and 90's and it would last for a long time. Nowadays it's all quantity, not quality.


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## sscotsman

I would say 1950's, 60's and 70's it was made to last..
80's was the beginning of the end..
and by the 90's the cheapness was here to stay..

Scot


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## 43128

nothing you guys says is wrong, and the reliability on these clones has not been proven yet, but considering all the **** that people put them through hot rodding them and holding up fine, and the fact that all of my clones including my two that came from a golf course go kart track all run fine and start super easily and run so smooth with fresh gas, they cant be bad motor. i will however say that the powermores i dont like as much because all the parts are significantly different(i still think of them as clones, but heavily modified clones)


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## Coby7

Seems the one factor in common with your problem is emptying the tank and running dry. I never do this in fact I do the opposite, I fill the tank to the fullest and start once in a while to move some newer gas through the carb. Been doing this for 40 years and never have a problem starting any engine.


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## sscotsman

For several years I was doing the "keep gas in over the summer" method..but then I switched to the "full drain" method..There are people who say: "I fully drain the gas for storage. Been doing this for 40 years and never have a problem starting any engine." 
In reality, Its likely either method is fine..
If you do the "drain the gas" method, you have to be really diligent to make sure you get as much gas out as humanly possible..Here is a post I made a year ago on this topic:



sscotsman said:


> most people do either:
> 
> 1. Full gas in the whole system, tank, fuel lines, and carb.
> or.
> 2. No gas in the system at all.
> 
> There are pros and cons of each:
> 
> 1. Full gas in the system, tank, fuel lines, and carb.
> 
> Pro: Gas in the lines is said to keep things "lubricated", keeps gaskets from drying out.
> Pro: if you have gas in all the lines, and full in the carb, in theory there is too much gas for it to evaporate away completely, causing varnish.
> 
> Con: In reality, the gas can still dry out in places, like the fuels lines and in the carb, causing varnish and sticky gunk issues..starting up the machine once a month or so might mitigate that problem.
> Con: Gas goes bad quickly these days..even with stabilizer I wouldn't trust gas that is more than a month old..which means after 7 months of the summer storage season, you have a full gallon of gas, per machine, that is basically useless..you have to drain it and dispose of it. It is said you can slowly dump it into the car's gas tank, but I wouldn't want to do that to my car.
> Con: if you do your annual maintenance in the fall, you have to drain out the gas before you can tip the machine up on its handlebars to do the internal lubing/greasing..easier if the gas just isnt there to start with.
> 
> 2. No gas in the system at all.
> 
> Pro: No gas to dry out and gunk up! in theory.
> Pro: Dont have to start up and run the machine once a month, you can just leave it alone all summer.
> Pro: in the fall, there is no gas to get in the way of annual lubing/grease/seasonal maintenance. can tip the machine up on the bucket with no gas to drip out.
> (some do the annual maintenance in the spring, I do it in the fall.)
> Pro: in the fall, there is no old stale gas to deal with to get the machine up and running..just fill the tank with fresh gas, and she should fire right up.
> 
> Con: Can you really get *all* the gas out? perhaps not..there is a chance some will be left behind in small areas, like the gas lines, which could dry out and cause varnish..how real is this concern? dont know, but IMO its not a major concern.
> Con: In theory, gaskets can "dry out"..IMO, this one is also more myth than reality..people have been draining the gas from the equipment, for storage, for 60 years..never hear of real problems from the "full drain" method..
> 
> For a few years, I did method 1 during the summer..leaving gas in. I have since changed my mind and now I do the "full drain" method..I think its better to simply have no gas in the system at all..drain the gas tank, disconnect the gas line to the carb, let the gas drip out, remove the carb bowl, wipe it clean with a rag..leave the carb apart, gas lines loose, gas cap off with a rag stuffed loosly in the gs cap hole (to prevent dirt from getting in) and let the whole thing sit for a few days..to allow things to "air out" and let the little bits of remaining gas evaporate away..then re-assemble everything, and shes ready to snooze away the next 7 months..
> 
> Scot


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## NJHonda

I was a staunch believer that the US made the best small engines and hated the 'Chinese junk' motors.

until..

I bought a new Toro with the Loncin Chinese engine.. Boy was I wrong. It is the easiest starting AND quietest piece of equipment I own including two Hondas and three Briggs motors.
Period.

Old guys can learn new things


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## Fruggy

sscotsman said:


> I would say 1950's, 60's and 70's it was made to last..
> 80's was the beginning of the end..
> and by the 90's the cheapness was here to stay..
> 
> Scot


I have a 23-year-old American-made Briggs & Stratton engine that I use at my mother's home. Oil was changed every 3 seasons, 2nd spark plug, original air filter, original carb, TWO SEASONS I USED OLD TWO-STROKE FUEL, used stale gas most of the time.

The thing still starts in 1 or 2 pulls!!!!!

That's quality right there!!


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## skutflut

Fruggy said:


> I have a 23-year-old American-made Briggs & Stratton engine that I use at my mother's home. Oil was changed every 3 seasons, 2nd spark plug, original air filter, original carb, TWO SEASONS I USED OLD TWO-STROKE FUEL, used stale gas most of the time.
> 
> That's quality right there!!


I won't argue that older stuff seems to last longer, and I don't just mean small engines, but EVERYTHING you buy these days from toilet water valves to furnaces and air conditioning units, that's the world we now live in, like it or not. 

If you swear off Chinese built engines, you are not going to be able to get OPE unless you buy old equipment which might bring a whole different set of problems, such as parts availability, corrosion, and who knows what kind of previous maintenance and service history.

Your 23 year old briggs engine would probably run better if you used fresh fuel in it, since today's fuel quality is pretty marginal in quality in some geographical areas. 

I suggest that newer engines are not nearly as tolerant of stale fuel due to the crap that forms in the fuel, partly due to cheaply built parts and partly due to the potential for modern fuel to cause problems due to chemistry that didn't exist when your old briggs engine was made way back when. 

As far as support from the manufacturer, their main purpose in life is to sell new stuff, and avoid at all costs, providing warranty coverage if they can possibly get out of it. This is an area where Consumer protection legislation should be beefed up so that manufactures cannot simply dismiss consumer complaints as it appears that Troybuilt did with you. That's a whole other subject however, as much consumer protection legislation has loopholes in it big enough to drive a snowblower through.

Have you tried a letter writing campaign, or social media to document your problems, evidence that you have complied with the warranty requirements and perhaps introduce the SHAME card into the mix to get them to look at your claim a bit harder? Letter to the CEO couldn't hurt either.


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## wdb

When I bought my lawn tractor my dad told me "it won't hold up, nothing holds up these days, they don't make them like they used to, all this new stuff is crap". 

That was 1993. I still have the mower. It's true that I've fixed a lot of little stuff on it but the major parts are all original.

I'm thinking about trading it in for a new one, maybe one of those zero turn things. I'll do my homework again, like I did in 1993. And I have little doubt that I'll be able to find something that will last me another 25 years.


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## guyl

My end of season routine (snowblower, mower, etc) is to make sure the tank is at least half full, add stabilizer and then run the engine for a few minutes. After it has cooled off I remove the spark plug, squirt some motor oil in the cylinder (position it so the intake valve is open) and crank it several times. Then put the spark plug back in and put it away. I have been doing this for decades and have never had any problem starting it up again for the next season. I initially get some smoke as the excess oil burns off but that's it.


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## Marty013

Fruggy said:


> Troy-Bilt Storm 2410 Chinese engine and Yard Machines walk-behind with same Chinese engine.
> 
> It will not start. I did what the manual told me to do: drain gas during storage and use fresh fuel the next season. Troy-Bilt insisted that the engine problems are my fault so they wont' do warranty work. They didn't ask questions and made the assumption I used ethanol fuel (Idiots at Troy-Bilt put a sign on the gas cap stating it is OK to use E-10). I have proof that the Mobil gas station I go to does not accept fuel with ethanol in it. I had to pay $40 for a new carburetor. Troy-Bilt is a junk company. Consumer Reports magazine named them the most problematic.
> 
> Same problem with my one-year-old Yard Machines mower with a Chinese engine. I drained the fuel during storage and put in fresh gas when it was time to start. Engine ran very poorly and eventually did not start. They refused to fix the problem stating that it was my fault for negligence.
> 
> Troy-Bilt and Yard Machines warranty is a scam.
> 
> No Chinese engines anymore and no more MTD products. Now I'm hearing Chinese-made Briggs & Stratton engines and Kohler engines are junk, too.
> 
> Remember when America used to make very reliable small engines regardless of the quality of fuel and when you never did any maintenance??!?! I miss those days! All of you on here who bought a newer MTD product have been scammed.


read up in your owners manual as to propper off season prepping if any is to be done.. and if you fallowed it.. reclaim your warrantee.. if you have ANY receipts showing E-free or E-10 or better fuel.. show them


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## Toro-8-2-4

Us old guys remember solid US made OPE, tools, etc. This coming up generation is getting use to the idea of every thing being throw away and made in some 3rd world country. That is all they know with the exception of their parents and grand parents complaining. 
50 yrs from now middle aged people will be bitching that the Chinese don't make things as good as they use to. If consumers totally demanded quality it would happen..... but too many chase the lowest or lower priced stuff all the time.


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## wdb

Toro-8-2-4 said:


> 50 yrs from now middle aged people will be bitching that the Chinese don't make things as good as they use to.


50 years after that it will be those lazy Martians and their crappy quality.


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## Boosted3g

Quality ope is out there but few people will pay for it. The vast majority of people shop on price which is why you have cheap machines that don't last. Trust me I owned a few gems like a 28" troybilt storm. I never have fuel issues since I use stabilizer and store equipment properly but the lack of quality was evident. Four years worth of broken cables, belts and absolute lack luster performance. Sent it down the line when I saved up to buy an Ariens. I'm not picking on troybilt, it's the same everywhere. I wish John Deere didn't even make lawn tractors because it ruined their reputation. Should have left it at garden tractors with mowing decks on them. But then again people gripe about the price on a fully capable quality x700 series when 30 years ago consumers paid equivalent money for a 318 and they sold the heck out of them. People got cheap.


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## DennisP

Yeah, I am late into the snowblower game, but after tearing into the newer chonda motors used on everything compared to older Tecumseh and Briggs motors I am jaded. I would rather deal with old and reliable engine tech than take a chance that you get a poor QC'd newer engine.

That is my concern with the new Simplicity I just got. It has the newer "made in china" Briggs engine on it and I am concerned about long-term.

For redoing older machines I basically have set a hard-limit on anything with the newer chinese motors to rebuild. That is why when I came across the 2006 Cub Cadet 528SWE I am redoing the big decision factor (outside of how good of a deal it was) was the fact it was a good running Tecumseh 10hp on it. It initially ran poorly, but I could tell it was because of a gummed up carb due to improper storage, so I promptly swapped out the carb for a new adjustable one and it runs awesome. Since it is adjusted no-where near as lean as the factory fixed carb, I fully expect for the engine on it to outlast the rest of the machine. So I am probably going to keep this machine long-term. Turns out it was the last year model Cub Cadet to use Tecumseh engines as the next year they all went with Briggs for a year and then chonda motors the year after.

But even for mowers and such, I have a old-school Briggs I/C engine on my 33" Garden-Way manufactured Troy-Bilt wide-area mower, and an actual Honda GCV160 on the backup HRZ216 mower. 

I have a 2012-vintage Brute mower with a Briggs Quantum 7.25 engine on it, but I swear that thing has burned oil from day one. No real smoke to be seen, except on startup, but it burns through a bit of oil in a season. And it has stripped the spark plug hole (which is VERY common on these I found out, so much so that most dealers that do repairs on these have heads in stock because of it). I have NEVER stripped a park plug hole in my life before this mower. It is really ****-poor that they would develop a part that has that kind of problem. I personally fixed it with a thread-sert so this head will never have that problem again. But, I will be selling this mower off in the spring as well (I need a zero-turn for all the beds I installed).

Luckily all the other OPE I have is either non-critical (like a Troy-bilt edger with a 5hp Briggs engine, or the Powerstroke pressure washer with Subaru engine) or I have backups (such as a 2-cycle Troy-Bilt weed whacker as a backup for my Cub Cadet 4-cycle weed whacker, or Poulan Pro 25cc 2-cycle blower as a backup for my Ryobi 2-cycle backpack blower). But for stuff I *HAVE* to rely upon for heavy-duty use (snowblowers/lawn mowers) I want reliable engine tech.

The ONLY chonda motor I have is on my 3 year old plate compactor, and that I only now use non-ethanol premium gas in with Seafoam. I once had to tear into the carb because the first year I used 10% ethanol reformulated gas in it and the next spring it wouldn't run with the choke off. I took it apart and cleaned it up and it runs like new again. But after that I made sure to only use non-reformulated premium with Seafoam in everything, and I don't use that piece of equipment outside of paving projects around here, so that is maybe once a year for a few days. After I redo the front walkway pavers this next spring I am probably going to sell the compactor off.


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## GustoGuy

Just Nostalgia. I am in my early 50's and I too can remember the poor quality automobiles built before the 1990's which would rust out in just a few years and the old fuel inefficient V8 engines would burn oil and be totally shot by 100,000 miles and how they used to handle like ocean liners and how the Japanese needed to teach Detroit how to make high quality fun to drive automobiles. As to old Tecumseh's engines they do not impress me too much. Flat head cool bore all aluminum designs with bushings instead of ball bearing supported crankshaft they were blown technologically out of the water once Honda came out with the GX240 in the late 1980's. The new Honda commercial series engines were quiet and efficient and blew the old flat head Briggs and Tecumseh’s away in its performance and reliability. The Chinese Honda clones are basically copies of the Honda engines and the Honda patent has expired so anyone can make them now. How many of you guys own flat head engine automobiles anymore? As the the bodies of the blowers from the 1970's they tended to robust and well made and I now own a repowered 1973 Gilson made Montgomery Ward 8/26 but the old breaker point ignition flat head engines were not anywhere near as reliable as small modern OHV engines made today. If the old 8hp Briggs engine would have ran well I would have kept it on the Gilson made machine but it would puff blue smoke and oil foul the spark plug and the old Updraft Briggs carburetors were known for warping where the the fuel bowel attaches to the throttle body. I too have handled a wrench in my life so I know what I am talking about.


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## Ariens hydro pro

My current habits are to run that Carb DRY. I run it and the tank dry. I play with the choke to get every drop of fuel the heck out of there.
Then an hour or two later I will restart it to make sure that puppy is dry.

Seems to work for me.

I use stabil (blue marine blend) and I still had a carb go south on me. The gas is just not what it use to be. So for 9 months of the year, if that engine won't run, I drain them.


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## Blosumsno

My Snapper is a 2003 22 inch and haven't had any trouble, I bought it new for a whopping $850 before trading in a pretty new Yard Machines. Granted I remember a few seasons it didn't get used at all so in the 13 years it probably saw less than 50 hours (would take me about an hour to clear a 2 foot snowfall) and 6-12" is more common from a decent storm.

Anyway, is there a reason why we couldn't use Techron or something? B&S stabilizer advertises it has detergents but I don't see that on most fuel treatments.


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## Ariens hydro pro

A note about Honda engines.
Honda makes great engines, but I had a problem with 1 once.

I bought a 8 HP leaf blower a few years back. I recall the dealer had to pull the cord a few times to start it up. It ran and it blew like crazy so I bought the machine for $800 plus tax. 
It would start on 1 pull when cold but it wouldn't start hot or warm. The following season I complained about this and I had to pay for the carb to be replaced. Over $100 I recall. Honda would not give you a free repair because they blamed me for the fuel problem. 3 year warrantee bla bla bla.

So it happens with all makes. Today's gas just is not as good as we used as kids. Plus if you get a bad one and it's a carb issue (from the first day or 2 years later) expect to pay to get it fixed.

The new Briggs and Stratton engines seem fine. I have a new power washer, 3 snow blowers (I sold the smallest last fall) and a chipper shredder and they all run great. 

Change the oil often and watch the gas going in them and you will be fine.


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## man114

Here is my opinion of the powermore...

I bought my house in 2009, leaves were a disaster as I live in a rural area.

Summer 2010 I go to Merchandise Pickup at Sears and they have a Yard Man leaf vac for $149 in the clearance row. I just bought it to try and ease my cleanup if only forma year or two.

Here we are 2016. That engine has been run hard. Hundreds of hours. 

Really the largest issue I ever had was it is nearly impossible to start hot. I've always had to let it cool 15 minutes for a restart.

Always ran synthetic oil after the original oil change with a zddp additive, change the air filter every 75hrs. I'm more concerned about the bag than the engine. My dad has an old Craftsman with a Briggs engine and the bag went before the engine. I'm probably on the same path.


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## Snowbelt_subie

does anyone know what year they changed to the chinese engines with troy bilt blowers?


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## sscotsman

Snowbelt_subie said:


> does anyone know what year they changed to the chinese engines with troy bilt blowers?


Most likely 2010, the first model year that Tecumseh was gone and nearly all snowblower engines switched over to China.
although it could have been earlier, if Troy-Bilt was using Briggs engines rather than Tecumseh engines before then, in that case, it could have been Chinese-made Briggs engines as early as year 2000.

So, in the 2000 to 2009 timeframe:
If Troy-Bilt was using Tecumseh engines, then the switch to Chinese engines was 2010.
If they were using Briggs engines, then it was probably around 2000.


Scot


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## Snowbelt_subie

sscotsman said:


> Most likely 2010, the first model year that Tecumseh was gone and nearly all snowblower engines switched over to China.
> although it could have been earlier, if Troy-Bilt was using Briggs engines rather than Tecumseh engines before then, in that case, it could have been Chinese-made Briggs engines as early as year 2000.
> 
> So, in the 2000 to 2009 timeframe:
> If Troy-Bilt was using Tecumseh engines, then the switch to Chinese engines was 2010.
> If they were using Briggs engines, then it was probably around 2000.
> 
> 
> Scot


thanks you are a wealth of knowledge :smile:


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## Kiss4aFrog

My 2008 Storm 2410 is a Chinese engine.


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## Snowbelt_subie

Kiss4aFrog said:


> My 2008 Storm 2410 is a Chinese engine.


hows the performance/ reliability ? its almost 10 years old now


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## Kiss4aFrog

Starts good, plenty of power but it's always surged. Runs best with 1/4 choke then it's not so noticeable. Pain in the rear to get to the carb as there is a piece of plastic that wraps around 3/4 of the engine that has to be removed to access the carb. Drilled the main jet once but I need to try again. I hate that hunting. Same with an earthquake tiller I bought. Haven't messed with it at all yet. Now that I've had my cataract corrected and I can see again these are some of the projects I'm going to try and tackle this year. What I don't like is unlike an old Tecumseh or B&S there are already parts that are NLA. Easier to find parts for my 1972 Ariens blower or engine than for this guy. 

IMHO the Chinese got it right by copying Honda's design without spending all the $$ on R&D. Don't get me wrong, I'd rather buy American and support "us" but that isn't an option. I don't like that they steal the hard work of others and spit out a copy. Sometimes a good copy sometimes just a cheap copy. The import engines seems to hold up very well and run great. People who soup them up for carts and mini bikes aren't complaining about failures so just running one normally on a mower or blower should be no challenge for a Predator or it's cousins. Again it's just MHO.


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## coastie56

*Surging problem fixed. The final solution.*

When I first rebuilt the carb I drilled out the main jet with a number 68 several years ago, About 2 years ago it was surging again and the main jet cleaning with the emulsion tube made no difference so I researched and found the idle air jet in the black plastic plug directly under the idle speed screw on the top of the carb. The hole is so tiny I had to use a wire i nipped off my wire brush and hog the varnish out as well as the crosswise holes in the middle. The jet just popped out of the carb body with a flat screw driver and completely fixes the surging issue and I use the red hose from the Gumout can to spray the jets out too. If you count the turns on the idle screw when you remove and replace it the idle won't change. The machine literally runs fantastic, one pull starts so easy I sometimes forget to hook up the electric cord. And yes pulling the plastic cover is the hardest part of the job but if you buy the new Chinese carb for barely more then the rebuild kit you still have to pull the cover. Use the Sta Bil and run her dry if you can tell when the last snowfall hits. This really is the fix for the surging BTW and once ya do it you can't believe how simple it is. I even bought a set of Poly Skids from loews and treated her to new shoes. My 2410 was bought in 2009. It even has the original plug and air filter but has synthetic oil.


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## Snowbelt_subie

Kiss4aFrog said:


> Starts good, plenty of power but it's always surged. Runs best with 1/4 choke then it's not so noticeable. Pain in the rear to get to the carb as there is a piece of plastic that wraps around 3/4 of the engine that has to be removed to access the carb. Drilled the main jet once but I need to try again. I hate that hunting. Same with an earthquake tiller I bought. Haven't messed with it at all yet. Now that I've had my cataract corrected and I can see again these are some of the projects I'm going to try and tackle this year. What I don't like is unlike an old Tecumseh or B&S there are already parts that are NLA. Easier to find parts for my 1972 Ariens blower or engine than for this guy.
> 
> IMHO the Chinese got it right by copying Honda's design without spending all the $$ on R&D. Don't get me wrong, I'd rather buy American and support "us" but that isn't an option. I don't like that they steal the hard work of others and spit out a copy. Sometimes a good copy sometimes just a cheap copy. The import engines seems to hold up very well and run great. People who soup them up for carts and mini bikes aren't complaining about failures so just running one normally on a mower or blower should be no challenge for a Predator or it's cousins. Again it's just MHO.





coastie56 said:


> When I first rebuilt the carb I drilled out the main jet with a number 68 several years ago, About 2 years ago it was surging again and the main jet cleaning with the emulsion tube made no difference so I researched and found the idle air jet in the black plastic plug directly under the idle speed screw on the top of the carb. The hole is so tiny I had to use a wire i nipped off my wire brush and hog the varnish out as well as the crosswise holes in the middle. The jet just popped out of the carb body with a flat screw driver and completely fixes the surging issue and I use the red hose from the Gumout can to spray the jets out too. If you count the turns on the idle screw when you remove and replace it the idle won't change. The machine literally runs fantastic, one pull starts so easy I sometimes forget to hook up the electric cord. And yes pulling the plastic cover is the hardest part of the job but if you buy the new Chinese carb for barely more then the rebuild kit you still have to pull the cover. Use the Sta Bil and run her dry if you can tell when the last snowfall hits. This really is the fix for the surging BTW and once ya do it you can't believe how simple it is. I even bought a set of Poly Skids from loews and treated her to new shoes. My 2410 was bought in 2009. It even has the original plug and air filter but has synthetic oil.


kiss4 afrog try this i seen this trick on youtube it seems to work.


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## majorxlr8n

Since I'm "new" here, before I chime in, I must say that I've been repairing OPE (and automotive) for almost 40 years and have PLENTY of experience working on the Chinese OPE engines.


A HUGE part many of you are missing is that no matter what fuel treatment you use, ALL the ethanol fuels are HYDROSCOPIC. That means due to alcohol's physical properties, it ABSORBS WATER/MOISTURE! So keeping the tank full with an additive will NOT completely prevent carb issues. It WILL keep the fuel from gelling up, but the moisture will still get absorbed into the fuel. The bowl & carb body can erode, the inlet needle can fuse to the carb body (I see the latter quite frequently). 


I will also say that the metals used in the Chinese engines are not the best. No, I have not done any metallurgic testing, but I've witnessed carb erosion occurring after a years (or even less) time frame. 


I've always been an advocate of DRY storage. Not only for trouble free operation, but for safety, especially when OPE is housed in an attached garage, shed or basement.


Marty


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## Mike C.

skutflut said:


> ...
> 
> I suggest that newer engines are not nearly as tolerant of stale fuel due to the crap that forms in the fuel, partly due to cheaply built parts and partly due to the potential for modern fuel to cause problems due to chemistry that didn't exist when your old briggs engine was made way back when.....
> 
> .


You know,it's interesting and ironic that you made this statement. Over the course of this thread I've been thinking how I've yet to run into gas stale enough(treated or not) that won't burn just fine in either my 6 year old Harbor Freight Greyhound engine or my portable generator with Honda-clone engine.I almost think that if I drank 2 shots of whiskey and pissed in the gas tank,either one of those engines would burn it and be happy.


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## tpenfield

I have a garage full of Troy-Bilt OPE. . . . Lawn mower, leaf vacuum, snow blower.

They all have been good. Engines always start. Quality is mid-range, price tends to be slightly below average. So, the end-results is that you get decent equipment at a favorable price.

By contrast, my brother had the 1988 Toro 521, that I now have. Season to season he could never get it to start and had to take it in for 'repair'. I' had it for about 10 years and always got it to start. Fuel treatment is key to these small engines.


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## 524SWE

*My 2 cents...*

I've got a 2007 Cub Cadet 524swe with the Powermore (Zongshen) engine I believe. For the first 9 years of it's life it had virtually no maintenance. Still had the original Torch brand sparkplug. Starts and runs fine except for the usual surging when not under load. I'm planning on exploring the carb this summer and may just buy a replacement carb. I have the Adjustable High Speed Needle Assembly and will install it new carb or old. While I do have easy access to non-ethanol gas here I still believe in thoroughly draining the carb and tank. Also installed a fuel filter. No matter what I've done in the past for gas tank rust prevention there is always some surface rust from time to time.
To me time will tell if these Chinese engines are going to be any good. I'm thinking there may be some washout of some engines makers just like there was with Japanese motorcycle manufacturers back in the day. Haven't seen too many Hodakas, Marushos or Bridgestones lately.


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## Matt Killen

I was changing the oil in my Troy-Bilt 26" earlier. I was adding new oil and I'm pretty sure I added too much. Now the engine won't start. The cord won't work. I drained the oil I had added and still no luck. Did I seize the engine? Is it something to do with the cord? What do I do if i seized it? 

Thanks, 
Matt


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## skutflut

Matt Killen said:


> I was changing the oil in my Troy-Bilt 26" earlier. I was adding new oil and I'm pretty sure I added too much. Now the engine won't start. The cord won't work. I drained the oil I had added and still no luck. Did I seize the engine? Is it something to do with the cord? What do I do if i seized it?
> 
> Thanks,
> Matt


This was really the wrong place to post your question Matt. You should start a new thread for this. This thread is about 3 years old
I just happened to notice it as I was subscribed to it and it came up with a new message added.

Try removing the spark plug from your engine, and see if it will turn over. You might have a hydro lock problem, where a quantity of oil has gotten on top of the piston in the cylinder, and the piston cannot move up because oil won't compress. 

With the plug out, if there is any liquid in the top of the cylinder, it will have a place to go when you pull the cord. Just don't be looking down the hole. Pack a few rags around it to avoid blowing stuff all over the place.

If the engine still won't turn, then there is another problem, but do the easy stuff first. 

It could be that your recoil starter is broken. Does the cord pull out and retract, but just not turn the engine, or is it stuck in and wont pull, or is it all pulled out and won't retract?

If you overfilled the engine, and it has not been started since its probably not seized. If you ran it without any oil before the change, that's another story.


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