# When did MTD go downhill?



## fordguy2018

Looks like there are several posts on the poor quality of MTD. Would not disagree that this seems to be the state of play for 2019/2020.

However, when did this drop off? I have a 2005 MTD (31AS6FEF729) and this has performed well over the years.

Anyone else have these units? Have you had similar experiences?


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## Oneacer

In my opinion, any unit, regardless of brand or price, can easily go downhill in the wrong hands.

I know people that have generic or main stream brands that run great for many, many years … why, because they take care of them and properly maintain them.

I have seen others destroy units, any brand, by not taking care of them.


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## Clutch Cargo

Interesting question. I have only had operational experience with one, a mid-90s large frame 8/26, but have observed the general trend away from what I would call "robust manufacturing" from that point forward. Maybe it started before that, I really cannot say for sure. What I saw when looking at their offerings over the years was for example a 199X model would have three fasteners on a given component, and a year or two later the same component would have two. Another component might have been metal and then the next year be plastic. All to appease the price-point gods. Generally speaking, my machine was a reasonably good performer (and this goes back to expectations & technique) and easy to work on. However, it had a couple of flaws:



1. The design of the flange where the transmission housing mates to the auger housing created a stress-riser at the top corner which over time will eventually crack. Despite this being acknowledged and described on this and may other forums, it has never been addressed. 

2. This is of course isn't limited to MTD, but the lack of an overhead support for the auger gearbox is the greatest indication of accountants overruling engineers in order to meet the aforementioned price point. 

In my opinion, what really cheapened MTD was their strategy of selling essentially the same snowblower with just differences in colors and feature sets and calling it a Cub, Yard-Man, Troy-Bilt, Yard Machines, White Outdoor, Ranch King, MTD Gold etc. etc. etc. This was disastrous for GM and equally as bad for MTD.


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## Coby7

When did MTD go downhill? When was it ever uphill?


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## cranman

One thing I'll say for MTD...as cheap as they are built.....parts are plentiful and cheap....very easy to work on....my customers will take an MTD over Ariens or toro, 7 out of 10 times....they are shinier.


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## kimber

Clutch Cargo said:


> Interesting question. I have only had operational experience with one, a mid-90s large frame 8/26, but have observed the general trend away from what I would call "robust manufacturing" from that point forward. Maybe it started before that, I really cannot say for sure. What I saw when looking at their offerings over the years was for example a 199X model would have three fasteners on a given component, and a year or two later the same component would have two. Another component might have been metal and then the next year be plastic. All to appease the price-point gods. Generally speaking, my machine was a reasonably good performer (and this goes back to expectations & technique) and easy to work on. However, it had a couple of flaws:
> 
> 
> 
> 1. The design of the flange where the transmission housing mates to the auger housing created a stress-riser at the top corner which over time will eventually crack. Despite this being acknowledged and described on this and may other forums, it has never been addressed.
> 
> 2. This is of course isn't limited to MTD, but the lack of an overhead support for the auger gearbox is the greatest indication of accountants overruling engineers in order to meet the aforementioned price point.
> 
> In my opinion, what really cheapened MTD was their strategy of selling essentially the same snowblower with just differences in colors and feature sets and calling it a Cub, Yard-Man, Troy-Bilt, Yard Machines, White Outdoor, Ranch King, MTD Gold etc. etc. etc. This was disastrous for GM and equally as bad for MTD.


I have one from the same era, 8hp Tecumseh on a 26" bucket, it still starts first pull and has served me well over the years, given to me by my Dad, it still blows great but will not blow slush! I've used it 10 years and only replaced belts but have never broken a shear pin,not the best machine but it owes me nothing.


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## micah68kj

Coby7 said:


> When did MTD go downhill? When was it ever uphill?



At one point in time, many years ago, MTD had many good products. They were always basic but they were *good quality.* I know. We owned some MTD stuff from back in the day. All good stuff. 

The very first snowblower I owned was a 1994 MTD 826. I worked it hard for many years (17) and it *never* failed to start or to do what I asked of it. I wouldn't hesitate to buy another MTD product if they were still made like they used to be made. Unfortunately many once good, solid brands are now pretty much scrap. I could name names but I don't wish to start a war.


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## Coby7

micah68kj said:


> At one point in time, many years ago, MTD had many good products. They were always basic but they were *good quality.* I know. We owned some MTD stuff from back in the day. All good stuff.
> 
> The very first snowblower I owned was a 1994 MTD 826. I worked it hard for many years (17) and it *never* failed to start or to do what I asked of it. I wouldn't hesitate to buy another MTD product if they were still made like they used to be made. Unfortunately many once good, solid brands are now pretty much scrap. I could name names but I don't wish to start a war.


You were lucky, my last lawn tractor was an MTD, what a piece of crap from day one. Boy did I ever regret that move. I tried as hard as I could to keep as long as I could but after 10 years of maybe 20 outings per summer I had to give up on it. The Briggs & Stratton 18 twin was still working like a charm but that wasn't built by MTD. I replaced and re-enforced and modified everything on that MTD and it was still falling apart somewhere else. I gave up. My Husqvarna it's only weakness was the steering linkages.


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## sscotsman

I believe a lot of things went down in quality with "the rise of the Big Box stores".
MTD was decent quality through the 70's and 80's, and the downhill slide began in the 90's as Big Boxes took over the world..
Home Depot and Lowes helped, but Walmart is the biggest player..customers now demand everything be as low cost as possible..
most of the time to get lower cost, you have to get lower quality as well.


You can now buy a new 2-stage snowblower at Walmart for $400.. and its absolute junk.
In 1970, Ariens least expensive snowblower would be the equivalent of $1,500 today..
and the high price, then, reflected the high quality you got.

You couldn't buy a snowblower as cheap and junky as a modern $400 snowblower in 1970, they didn't exist.


Scot


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## burt8810

I have an MTD/Sears 24" snowblower. The LCT motor quit this Fall. I realized it was purchased by me in 2005 so I got 14 years out of it. Replaced belts several times and a bearing. While I was installing a Predator engine I replaced 2 bearings on the friction wheel shaft. I feel it has has been a good value. I also have a Kubota G4200 lawn tractor that I purchased in 1987. Few minor repairs on tractor and more so on the deck, but not a lot. I have also been told many decks look like swiss cheese and replacements are no longer available. Maybe maintenance and grease and oil are a big factor in equipment life and perceived value.
Herb


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## cranman

kimber said:


> I have one from the same era, 8hp Tecumseh on a 26" bucket, it still starts first pull and has served me well over the years, given to me by my Dad, it still blows great but will not blow slush! I've used it 10 years and only replaced belts but have never broken a shear pin,not the best machine but it owes me nothing.


Do an impeller kit on that blower and watch the slush fly!


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## 88-tek

M.T.D. ...Many Troubles Develop....:dry:


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## rod330

sscotsman said:


> In 1970, Ariens least expensive snowblower would be the equivalent of $1,500 today..
> and the high price, then, reflected the high quality you got.


I think this is really the key point. I haven't personally inspected or used Cub Cadet's "Pro" line of snow blowers but they sure look impressive on paper. For example, with an MSRP of $1899, the Cub 31AH8EVS710 with a 420cc engine, 30" bucket and LED lights looks like a competent machine. If I were in the market for a long-lasting snow blower, this MTD Cub as well as similarly priced Ariens, Simplicity and Toro machines would be on my shopping list. 

Buy an older snowblower and refurbish it if you don't want to spend more than $1500 on a better quality machine. I typically refurbish older Ariens machines but I just started work on this 1999 era 1333SWE. So far, I'm impressed with this beast but I'm sure it was quite expensive 20 years ago.

You get what you pay for applies to snow blowers too.


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## DuffyJr

I guess I'm a lucky guy. Bought my MTD 5/22 from Menards in 1995, paid $499 for it and it still runs great. It has always been under powered with a 5hp Techumseh but it starts all the time and does what it was designed to do. I've replaced the scraper bar a few times, put armor skids on it and tinkered with the carb but that's it besides oil and a plug now the then. It even has the original belts on it.


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## Coby7

Don't want to be a buzz kill here but. Any machine will last forever if you don't use it. Obvious if you have the original belts. Because belts go bad sitting on the shelf.


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## tpenfield

MTD is basically a conglomerate of brands acquired over the years. (Right?) 

Some of the individual brands were of good quality when first acquired, but MTD’s cost cutting and standardization on mid-tier design across the brands tended to liquidate the quality of the stronger brands.


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## 2.137269

IMM it was around 2005 
a time when mtd merged cub being than made in canada to the same plant in the usa, sharing a lot of mtd parts and looking more mtd than cub, from there it seems the down hill started . that was also around the same time that tech was lost to us, and the china engine invasion started .


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## tdipaul

87powershiftx2 said:


> IMM it was around 2005
> a time when mtd merged cub being than made in canada to the same plant in the usa, sharing a lot of mtd parts and looking more mtd than cub, from there it seems the down hill started . that was also around the same time that tech was lost to us, and the china engine invasion started .


This timeline sheds light on when Troy-Bilt, Bolens, Toro and Murray went downhill. Who is the next victim?


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## Oneacer

Wow … I did not know Stanley Power Tools, (Stanley Works), in the next town over to me, looks like it might possibly be taking control of MTD in the near future.


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## Bob E

Seems like there was a drive to make power equipment better that peaked in the late 70's - early 80's. Since then the drive has been to make it cheaper. The MTD's from back then are heavy duty compared to today's paper thin sheet metal and plastic geared junk.


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## 2.137269

oneacer said:


> Wow … I did not know Stanley Power Tools, (Stanley Works), in the next town over to me, looks like it might possibly be taking control of MTD in the near future.


THEY ARE!!! within 2 years "B&D will own or have the option to buy mtd outright https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MTD_Products

(In September 2018, New Britain, Conn.-based power tool maker Stanley Black & Decker announced that it had an agreement to acquire a 20% stake in outdoor power equipment maker MTD Products for $234 million. The transaction is expected to close in early 2019. In addition, Stanley Black & Decker will have the option to acquire the remaining 80% of MTD starting July 1, 2021)


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## 2.137269

another note

S,B&D has been buying up tool companies left and right for many years, https://www.stanleyblackanddecker.com/our-businesses/our-brands, don't be to shocked


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## DuffyJr

Coby7 said:


> Don't want to be a buzz kill here but. Any machine will last forever if you don't use it. Obvious if you have the original belts. Because belts go bad sitting on the shelf.


We only get 35" a year so ya it only gets used when I need it. I'm hoping now I have my SS it will last until my dog passes then I won't need to do the yard. When we get a big one I'll just go out more often.


So your saying the replacement belts I purchased 10 years ago are no good, they look fine to me. And I will say they look a lot cheaper than the ones that are on there.


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## sscotsman

oneacer said:


> Wow … I did not know Stanley Power Tools, (Stanley Works), in the next town over to me, looks like it might possibly be taking control of MTD in the near future.



Interesting! Could be good or bad..
Stanley is already importing cheap low-quality snowblowers from China and slapping the Stanley brand name on them. Now its possible all the MTD brands (Cub Cadet, Troy Bilt,etc) will be fully Chinese-made in a few years. (Just speculation, but based on current Stanley Snowblowers, not impossible)

It's also possible Stanley might want to keep the MTD snowblower (body) production in the USA, in order to improve their currently dreadful line? Maybe...

Scot


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## 2.137269

praying your right scot!! 
but sad point is to simply look at whats today and what was years back, companies like mac tools and craftsman both owned by S,B&D are no sadly longer what they had been ,same goes for snap-on . 
a old mac tools ratchet looks like today's stanley . a made ??? where clone


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## fordguy2018

87powershiftx2 said:


> IMM it was around 2005
> a time when mtd merged cub being than made in canada to the same plant in the usa, sharing a lot of mtd parts and looking more mtd than cub, from there it seems the down hill started . that was also around the same time that tech was lost to us, and the china engine invasion started .


My MTD snowblower has served me faithfully since 2005. Seems like I bought this at the right time as MTD went downhill from there.

Went to Home Depot/Lowes and saw what is out there these days. Most of these are severely overpriced pieces of junk. I cannot justify spending almost $2k on something that frankly will not last more than 7-10 years (with me maintain it).

Besides Ariens who is left to make a quality product that is new?


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## sscotsman

fordguy2018 said:


> Besides Ariens who is left to make a quality product that is new?


The current Briggs & Stratton line still seems to be good quality, they are making new snowblowers under the B&S, Snapper, Simplicity, Brute and Murray names.

And Honda of course..
And outside of the US: Yamaha.

Scot


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## GustoGuy

I own the exact same snowblower which Ironically I also bought at Menards too. In 2012 I got rid of the poorly running hard to start underpowered 5Hp Tecumseh and re-powered with a Harborfreight Predator 212cc and now I enjoy the blower so much more.


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## amuller

All this reflect larger trends in our culture and approaches to equipment. From repair to replace.... From make to import.... From small-business specialty shops to big box retailers.... Most people are unsophisticated buyers and they look for lots of features and a low purchase price. So that's what they get. And, in truth, some aspects have improved. Engines are better. Controls are better. Light construction means easier to horse around.... I think what we are seeing now is a transition from low-priced, badge-engineered, domestic production (MTD) to imported Chinese production. After all, how many hours a year do most people run their blower? I live in Minnesota, corner house, two driveways and quite a bit of sidewalk. I doubt my blowers run 15 hours/year.


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## TooTall999

87powershiftx2 said:


> praying your right scot!!
> but sad point is to simply look at whats today and what was years back, companies like mac tools and craftsman both owned by S,B&D are no sadly longer what they had been ,same goes for snap-on .
> a old mac tools ratchet looks like today's stanley . a made ??? where clone


Back in 1989-92, I worked for Holo-Krome Allen in West Hartford, Ct. We did cold forming and the machine I ran made among other things extension bars for socket sets. When I was running say 3/8 x 6" extensions I'd make 10-20 thousand a day in a continuous run. There would be orders for Mac, Matco, S-K, and Craftsman, all made from the same material, in the same dies and identical to each other.


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## 2.137269

i hear that,
yet today's world we know where most items are made , not in the usa or canada ,the land of clones ???


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## Zavie

We've had a couple of threads lately about speed selection on Troy-Bilt snowblowers so I went to Home Depot. I looked at a TB Storm 2410 and I did indeed find it almost impossible to select all the speeds. They now have a cable to control the speed and when you do that, you need some form of tension maintained on the cable. Well I found that the tension is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to tight. R2 position requires near Hercules strength and most of the rest require a stupid amount of force. Totally cheap and unacceptable design just to allow them to put a inexpensive cable instead of a rod. Shame, shame, shame on you MTD.


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## RC20

I ran into an MTD in the early 90s. 10 hp 30 I think. Its issue was it had no spin of the wheels, if you hit packed snow it was done (non packed it did ok in) 



I had it opened up and the disk drive was fine, no shredding, no flat or burned spots, smooth as a baby bottom. 



I called a repair place, he just laughed and said MTD was his big money maker. 



It belong to the tri-plex owner and I was not going to spend any time on it, we moved shortly after than and got the Yamaha when the Toro (after 25 years) fell apart.


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## RC20

Coby7 said:


> Don't want to be a buzz kill here but. Any machine will last forever if you don't use it. Obvious if you have the original belts. Because belts go bad sitting on the shelf.


Well it was a few years ago, but I got the belts for the Yamaha and then took a look.

They were like new. And I have blown a **** of a lot of snow with it. 

I have had compressors with the original belts that were still like new. 

So no, they don't go bad sitting there or running. I will concur I would expect the Yamaha belts would need replacing after 22 years of hard ass use, good alignment and good belts and they still grip fine both for drive and auger. I may pop the cover just to look this summer. 

Hard used JD at work and the Toro did require belt replacements every 3-5 years. One was commercial office clearing and the Toro was worked really hard.


Air compressors had good sheaves and alignment and lasted forever.


Cheap sheaves and poor alignment, yea that will take a belt out fast.


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## ahw2698

I've owned many MTDs over the years. Easy to work on and good parts availability. My biggest gripe with them is the ridiculously thin gauge sheet metal on the buckets. I have never seen one that was not mangled from hitting hard frozen stuff. No comparison to the thickness of the Ariens, Toro, etc.


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## foiled

kimber said:


> I have one from the same era, 8hp Tecumseh on a 26" bucket, it still starts first pull and has served me well over the years, given to me by my Dad, it still blows great but will not blow slush! I've used it 10 years and only replaced belts but have never broken a shear pin,not the best machine but it owes me nothing.


I have a 1995 8 hp 26" That has been great. Bought it new and have done normal maintenance and it has been great, Just changed the friction disk and that was a easy job. They are simple and easy to work on. My machine should last another 10 years with no problem, not bad for a 650.00 machine.


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