# When will electric 2 stage blowers take over



## Dag Johnsen (Dec 24, 2018)

The boom of chargable electric cars and electric bicycles are huge worldwide, batteries have evolved and still do. A Tesla can run 300 kilometers in freezing cold weather.
When will we see chargable Electric 2 stage snowblowers?
Electric engines have enormous torque and would be perfect for snowblowing.


Just a tought...


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## e.fisher26 (Nov 6, 2016)

I have seen them, in posts on here actually 


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Noma 10/29
Cub cadet 5/26 conv to 8/26
Toro 8/24
Husqvarna st230p


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## Dag Johnsen (Dec 24, 2018)

*Ariens AMP 24*



e.fisher26 said:


> I have seen them, in posts on here actually
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, Ariens AMP 24. But clearly one needs something better. But would it not be just a matter of time before that will arrive in the marketplace? A machine that can work hard for at least one hour would be a good start.


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

I've seen electric (battery-powered) blowers. Ariens made one for maybe 2 seasons, several years ago, then they stopped selling it. 

https://www.snowblowersdirect.com/Ariens-916003-Snow-Thrower/p5025.html 

I think the battery problem is maybe worse than it is for cars. Lead-acid are very heavy, and low-capacity. Lithium are higher-capacity, and lighter, but very expensive. And capacity is a big problem. 

Your electric car may have a 300km range, even in winter. And maybe your commute to work is 50km, so that's OK. Even for a longer trip, maybe you can plan so that range is probably OK. 

But for clearing snow, the required "range", if you will, varies a lot. In a light storm, maybe your particular driveway needs 20, ummm, "snow units" of battery capacity. But in a blizzard, with wet, heavy snow, maybe you need 80 "snow units." 

And if it snowed overnight, you need to clear it to get to work, you can't wait for a recharge. So if your battery only has 60 "snow units" of capacity, you are in trouble, since you won't finish. In addition, batteries degrade over time, and their capacity is reduced. So maybe it starts with 60 "snow units", but decreases to 40 after 5 years, as an example. 

It will be really hard for a manufacturer to describe this capacity in a way that lets a user be confident they'll be able to clear their entire driveway. Even an battery-powered lawn mower probably has a more-consistent load, so you might be able to say it can run for 60 minutes, or whatever. But we all know that snowstorms can vary widely, so you can't really use run-time to describe snowblower battery capacity. Even driveway area is an estimate, at best. 

Brushless motors and lithium batteries can provide a lot of power and torque. But total energy capacity will be a challenge, unless you use a massively expensive battery. I'm sure they'll be practical eventually, but I don't think we're there yet, personally.


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## Dag Johnsen (Dec 24, 2018)

*not there yet*



RedOctobyr said:


> I've seen electric (battery-powered) blowers. Ariens made one for maybe 2 seasons, several years ago, then they stopped selling it.
> 
> https://www.snowblowersdirect.com/Ariens-916003-Snow-Thrower/p5025.html
> 
> ...



You are right.


But the high end expensive batteries are getting less costly as we speak. All we can do is wait and see.


Let us have fun with the beasts of machinery we are currently using in the meantime:smile2:
personally I like those noisy smelly machines better.


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## WVguy (Nov 24, 2018)

I have to agree with RedOctobyr, battery technology/capacity just isn't there yet. I even saw an article about an experimental electric full-size light airplane, carried two people. But it only had an endurance of 30 minutes - not very practical.

And yeah, smelly noisy gas engines are more fun.


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## rslifkin (Mar 5, 2018)

For snowblowers, it's entirely possible to build a very good electric unit with plenty of runtime. The challenge with current battery tech is doing this without making it so expensive that nobody ever buys one.


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## vinnycom (Nov 6, 2017)

theres only so much life the batteries will be good for in holding a charge, once their done replacing said batteries will cost more than the machine is worth, many will go to the landfill, more will need to get made, so how are battery operated vehicles/machines more environmentally friendly.
not to mention the cost of having one as its only good for a very short period of time compared to gas powered one. 
by blower is 32+ yrs old, bought it used, very little needed and cheap to get her back to life.
how many battery operated ones will you see in 5yrs still running never mind 30yrs


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## vmax29 (Oct 19, 2017)

There is that Honda Hybrid monster with gas thrower and electric track drive! 

https://www.ohiopowertool.com/p-202...MI0-ueh7La3wIVBECGCh1ckAgfEAQYAyABEgKz-vD_BwE

Then there is this Ariens robotic beast that I ran across looking for it....

Holy Ariens nirvana!! Sorry to veer off topic.

https://ozrobotics.com/shop/rc-4wd-robot-with-snow-blower/


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## WVguy (Nov 24, 2018)

vmax29 said:


> Holy Ariens nirvana!! Sorry to veer off topic.
> 
> https://ozrobotics.com/shop/rc-4wd-robot-with-snow-blower/


Such a deal! At that price I'll take two.:smile_big:


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## vmax29 (Oct 19, 2017)

if you get two you can have robot wars in your driveway every time it snows!


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

Dang, that's pretty crazy  But at $10k, you get a Compact, with 208cc? You can stay inside where it's warm, which is sweet. But it's gonna bog down more than your neighbor's $1k blower  Too bad they don't have a video of it in action! Seems like that would be a good thing to create, when your product is this much of a niche/unique item.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

Snow Joe seems to be the leader in the space, keep an eye on them.


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## Xilbus (Nov 30, 2018)

https://youtu.be/lWMwYU1nro0


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## Xilbus (Nov 30, 2018)

I almost got the snow joe 8024 xrp but it's a 9 inch impeller and just wasnt sure about the life of the unit. The batteries could last a good 5 years at 2000 recharges. But are 300$ each. At the same time how much oil and gas do we spend on in 5 years.


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## sscotsman (Dec 8, 2010)

Snow Joe = veeeeeery low end quality and reliability.
Check out the reviews.. 25% of them are 1 star, that means 1 out 4 owners find its useless.

.https://www.amazon.com/Snow-Joe-ION8024-XRP-Batteries-Headlights/dp/B0719851LZ/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8

Scot


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

sscotsman said:


> Snow Joe = veeeeeery low end quality and reliability.
> Check out the reviews.. 25% of them are 1 star, that means 1 out 4 owners find its useless.
> 
> .https://www.amazon.com/Snow-Joe-ION...0719851LZ/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8
> ...


 I agree, but they are really pushing hard. I've exhibited at trade shows where they were major sponsors, all the "collateral" bags guests get were sponsored by Snow Joe. They spend a TON of money in marketing.


But it doesn't make for a better product.


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## Xilbus (Nov 30, 2018)

sscotsman said:


> Snow Joe = veeeeeery low end quality and reliability.
> Check out the reviews.. 25% of them are 1 star, that means 1 out 4 owners find its useless.
> 
> .https://www.amazon.com/Snow-Joe-ION8024-XRP-Batteries-Headlights/dp/B0719851LZ/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8
> ...


Yeah that's why I didnt get it and the motor shuts down under too much pressure.


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## crazzywolfie (Jun 2, 2014)

i still think we are pretty far having a decent battery powered blower. i don't even know if there is any real good corded blowers. i feel like gas ones are about the most efficient and convenient at this point. you run out of fuel you just top it up. maybe in another 10 years or so from now that might change but still need better batteries or more efficient engines. while 300km/charge is pretty good for a electric car it really is not that great compared to the average gas car. i could be wrong but i am pretty sure most gas vehicle average about 600-800km/tank of fuel. technology will get there eventually but it just takes time.


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## 132619 (Nov 20, 2018)

jsup said:


> I agree, but they are really pushing hard. I've exhibited at trade shows where they were major sponsors, all the "collateral" bags guests get were sponsored by Snow Joe. They spend a TON of money in marketing.
> 
> 
> But it doesn't make for a better product.


they may have been trying to push it .yet why do both areins and snow joe show as discontinued in the link ?


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

33 woodie said:


> they may have been trying to push it .yet why do both areins and snow joe show as discontinued in the link ?



Not sure what you mean..


https://www.snowjoe.com/products/sn...digital-drive-snow-blower-w-dual-port-charger


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## 132619 (Nov 20, 2018)

jsup said:


> Not sure what you mean..
> 
> 
> https://www.snowjoe.com/products/sn...digital-drive-snow-blower-w-dual-port-charger


both of these say discontinued if right or wrong who knows for sure
https://www.snowblowersdirect.com/Ariens-916003-Snow-Thrower/p5025.html

https://www.snowblowersdirect.com/Snow-Joe-ION24SB-XR-Snow-Thrower/p68167.html


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

33 woodie said:


> both of these say discontinued if right or wrong who knows for sure
> https://www.snowblowersdirect.com/Ariens-916003-Snow-Thrower/p5025.html
> 
> https://www.snowblowersdirect.com/Snow-Joe-ION24SB-XR-Snow-Thrower/p68167.html





OH, on a side note, I like the CONCEPT of electric things, cars, blowers, etc... but I don't think the technology is 100% just yet. Yeah, they tell ya a car will go XXX miles without a charge, but "your mileage may vary". These "tests" , like many, are set up in the most favorable conditions for the product. Don't run the cabin heat or air conditioner, 1 very skinny passenger, no luggage, because ya know someone traveling 500 miles won't have luggage, in corn fields with no hills.


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## russ01915 (Dec 18, 2013)

Batteries are making headway but aren't ready for prime time


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## crazzywolfie (Jun 2, 2014)

jsup said:


> OH, on a side note, I like the CONCEPT of electric things, cars, blowers, etc... but I don't think the technology is 100% just yet. Yeah, they tell ya a car will go XXX miles without a charge, but "your mileage may vary". These "tests" , like many, are set up in the most favorable conditions for the product. Don't run the cabin heat or air conditioner, 1 very skinny passenger, no luggage, because ya know someone traveling 500 miles won't have luggage, in corn fields with no hills.


you also forget the speed. the faster you go with a electric vehicle the more power is used up. you can get more distance going slower with them but who wants to go slow? there is definitely a lot more work that needs to go into that before it becomes a lot more common.


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## IDEngineer (Oct 16, 2018)

When professional lumberjack chainsaws go all-electric, the technology might be ready for snowblowers. Until then, you just can't match the energy density of a gallon of gasoline.

A friend in the boating industry once explained engine load as follows: "A boat engine is loaded like a truck that is always driving uphill." That is, land vehicles only need peak power during acceleration. A typical sedan only requires 10-13 horsepower to maintain freeway speed. Likewise, the burden on a Tesla's battery pack is a small percentage of maximum the vast majority of the time.

Snowblowers are another matter. Those who have a snowblower may have forgotten how heavy snow can be, but there's a reason they make snowblowers and a reason we buy them! Snow (really, water) is HEAVY. And it doesn't take much surface area to add up to a LOT of snow weight even from a "light" storm. Recall that snowblowers are rated in dozens of TONS per hour, and that's not just lifting the snow but also flinging it dozens of feet away. The total work accomplished is very significant, and the snowblower is doing it the vast majority of the time its engine is running. There's no "easy going" like a car simply sustaining highway speeds... that truck (read: snowblower) is driving uphill _all the time_, which means its engine is working hard _all the time_, and its fuel flow (gasoline consumption) is significant _all the time_.

Battery chemistry has come a long way lately. But it's still a far cry from matching the energy density of gasoline, and the demand curve for power in a snowblower just doesn't fit today's batteries very well. Will we get there? Probably - in fact I hope so, because I'd love to stop wearing earplugs when moving snow! But it won't be during model year 2020.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

IDEngineer said:


> When professional lumberjack chainsaws go all-electric, the technology might be ready for snowblowers. Until then, you just can't match the energy density of a gallon of gasoline.
> 
> A friend in the boating industry once explained engine load as follows: "A boat engine is loaded like a truck that is always driving uphill." That is, land vehicles only need peak power during acceleration. A typical sedan only requires 10-13 horsepower to maintain freeway speed. Likewise, the burden on a Tesla's battery pack is a small percentage of maximum the vast majority of the time.
> 
> ...



All true. IN FACT, the electric car's biggest advantage is around the city, once on the highway, the gasoline powered car is more efficient, by a long shot.


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

I realize this would be pretty silly. But if you really needed electric (lets say for noise or emissions regulations, etc), a goofy approach could be battery, along with a cord. 

A battery can provide significantly more peak power than a 110V outlet can. A 15A, 110V circuit can provide roughly 1600W, or about 2.2hp. A powerful battery can provide quite a bit more power, albeit for a limited amount of time. 

But if you had it plugged in while blowing, you could be reducing the load on the battery by roughly 1600W, by constantly drawing from the outlet. And when your load drops below 1600W (like while turning around at the end of a run), you could very briefly put some charge back into the battery. Maybe you could even run just off the cord at reduced power output, if you killed the batteries anyhow. 

You'd have to deal with a cord, it would be clumsy, silly, more-expensive, etc etc. But it *could* provide an extended run-time, vs just a battery, without requiring new battery technology. Which, as IDEngineer said, is unlikely to be around the corner.


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## IDEngineer (Oct 16, 2018)

jsup said:


> All true. IN FACT, the electric car's biggest advantage is around the city, once on the highway, the gasoline powered car is more efficient, by a long shot.


 A study published a decade or so ago ranked powertrains in order of efficiency. They had everything in there. And the winner was... turbodiesel-electric hybrid, e.g. a smallish diesel engine charging a battery that powers one or more electric motors.

The reasons are:

1) Electric powertrains can recapture braking energy. The impact of this is hard to overstate. A study of the public buses in London a while back showed that fully 50% of the energy derived from their fuel was dissipated as waste heat in the brakes! That's some serious inner city inefficiency.

But electric powertrains rely on batteries that, as discussed here, just can't match the energy density of chemical fuels. What's the most efficient engine...?

2) A turbodiesel, which can be twice as efficient at extracting the potential energy from chemical fuel thanks to its higher compression ratio, higher operating temperature, and the turbocharger that alone recovers up to 50% of the energy otherwise lost out the exhaust. It doesn't take a large engine, since the battery handles the acceleration peak power loads. Just a smallish engine that runs at near-constant speed (read: near optimal efficiency) to charge the battery.

This combination yields the best of short AND long range efficiency. Note the irony that railroads have been using this exact combination for decades! They've had the correct answer all along, it just needs to be scaled down for use in passenger vehicles. Unfortunately, diesels have a poor reputation in the United States so we're not likely to ever see what is provably the best powertrain available.


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## detdrbuzzard (Jan 20, 2012)

well right now a battery powered snowblower would not work for me and a few others on this forum unless we could have a couple battery packs that are charged and waiting to be put in our snowblowers after we kill the battery ( s ) already in the machine. I clear snow for seven to nine neighbors before heading to mom. once there I've got mom's place and five of her neighbors


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

And turbo diesels tend to be expensive, since you have 2 types of added cost, vs a plain gas engine. Plus the cost/complexity of an electric hybrid system. So while it might be the most efficient, it also needs to be cost-effective. 

Maybe Chevy will made a diesel Volt. Could even call it a..... Dolt. 

I think the Volt system is a great stop-gap approach, providing efficiency, while eliminating the range-anxiety that comes with all-electric. It's a shame that it's being discontinued. A few coworkers have them (there are chargers at work), they're all happy with them. 

Though one person who bought his last spring said he's now a bit concerned about repairs, in the future. Presumably your main source for service will have to be Chevy dealers, and his dealer has 1 Volt Guy, I think. So there was some difficulty when it had a powertrain problem not long after buying it, they had to wait until that guy was available to work on it. Once new ones stop hitting the market, the Volt service techs may eventually become more rare.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

RedOctobyr said:


> And turbo diesels tend to be expensive, since you have 2 types of added cost, vs a plain gas engine. Plus the cost/complexity of an electric hybrid system. So while it might be the most efficient, it also needs to be cost-effective.
> 
> Maybe Chevy will made a diesel Volt. Could even call it a..... Dolt.
> 
> ...



Are those chargers at work on a meter? 



I was staying at a hotel and outside a guy had a cord running to his blender. I asked at the desk if he were charging his car, they said yes. I asked where I can get my car topped off free since they're giving away fuel like that.


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

The chargers are free for employees. So if you live within roughly 40 miles round-trip, these folks commute for free. It's pretty awesome for them.


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## ChuckD6321 (Nov 20, 2016)

IDEngineer said:


> When professional lumberjack chainsaws go all-electric, the technology might be ready for snowblowers. Until then, you just can't match the energy density of a gallon of gasoline.
> 
> A friend in the boating industry once explained engine load as follows: "A boat engine is loaded like a truck that is always driving uphill." That is, land vehicles only need peak power during acceleration. A typical sedan only requires 10-13 horsepower to maintain freeway speed. Likewise, the burden on a Tesla's battery pack is a small percentage of maximum the vast majority of the time.
> 
> ...



This is all true, measured in purely energy per mass gasoline/diesel is miles ahead of what electric can supply. But I would suggest there's more to the attractiveness coefficient than work output.


I recently picked up an EGO Power leafblower after closely looking at the Stihl gas offerings and I'm glad I chose this one...for the convenience alone. I have modest needs of blowing around the outside of the house (lots of trees and wind) and have found it quickly clears a couple inches of snow off the walks, steps, deck and cars. The best thing though is I hang it on a hook inside the garage door and when needed it's like grabbing a flashlight. I have the smallest 54v battery so I get maybe twenty minutes of use on "Turbo" mode (if I need to use "Turbo" mode, it's plenty powerful without).


That's my point though. No gas, no oil, no carbs to clean, plugs to gap and/or replace, and especially, quieter and less abusive on my body. After several decades of fiddling around with all manner of internal combustion engines I'm really happy to be able to take care of all this smaller stuff with so little fuss.


They have a blower too, but I'm pretty sure it would be no match for my driveway so, yeah, gas still has it's place and likely will for a while. But I look forward to the retirement of fossil fueled engines to museum and antique engine shows.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

RedOctobyr said:


> The chargers are free for employees. So if you live within roughly 40 miles round-trip, these folks commute for free. It's pretty awesome for them.



And if you don't have an electric car, I can only assume you don't get paid for driving to work. Maybe a company gas card or something would be in order. They got a raise, since they aren't paying for fuel, you didn't. And nobody complained? Take your fuel costs out of your monthly nut, I'm sure there's some impact to your bottom line. They get paid more, to be PC. 



But I digress.


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## crazzywolfie (Jun 2, 2014)

jsup said:


> And if you don't have an electric car, I can only assume you don't get paid for driving to work. Maybe a company gas card or something would be in order. They got a raise, since they aren't paying for fuel, you didn't. And nobody complained? Take your fuel costs out of your monthly nut, I'm sure there's some impact to your bottom line. They get paid more, to be PC.


you really need to look into electric vehicles and the math. electric vehicle are perfect for cities or commuting within a range. it may cost about $5 to fully charge the battery in a vehicle that will take it as far as your vehicle may take you on $30-50 worth of gas. electricity is cheap compared to gas. the big issue holding them back would be the battery range and how long it takes to charge a battery. some vehicles don't have speed charging capabilities like tesla does but tesla also has liquid cooled battery packs which most other brands don't have.


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

Figure in the cost of the battery over it's lifetime - it isn't just cost of power.

I also find it almost comical the use cases given as examples . . . not a one that would work for me. I have an Echo blower, and in 10 years, all I have needed to do is put fuel in and it works, and for hours at a time. I think the main appeal to electric is a fictitious sense of smug myself. . . . I have found just about zero good reasons in actual use.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

crazzywolfie said:


> you really need to look into electric vehicles and the math. electric vehicle are perfect for cities or commuting within a range. it may cost about $5 to fully charge the battery in a vehicle that will take it as far as your vehicle may take you on $30-50 worth of gas. electricity is cheap compared to gas. the big issue holding them back would be the battery range and how long it takes to charge a battery. some vehicles don't have speed charging capabilities like tesla does but tesla also has liquid cooled battery packs which most other brands don't have.



I don't disagree, but I just think everyone should pay for their own transportation costs, regardless of the amount. 



Let me use the hotel example. Let's say there's 100 cars a night charging free, how much more am I going to pay for that room to "fill their tank"?


There's a theory in economics, I can't remember it now, that says if 1 person does it, it's good, if everyone does it, it's bad. The example is standing up at a baseball game to see better, if one person stands, it's good for them, if everyone stands, it's bad for everyone


How about they just pay for their own transportation costs, regardless of what they choose to drive.


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## crazzywolfie (Jun 2, 2014)

jsup said:


> I don't disagree, but I just think everyone should pay for their own transportation costs, regardless of the amount.


i get that but i bet companies that encourage using electric cars are getting tax breaks or benefits that more than covers the cost of any electricity used. they probably would charge for power used plus some if not but even then i bet it would likely only cost $1-2/day to commute. ya it ads up in the long run but the governments are trying to push for people to drive electric vehicles and the best way to do it is offer benefits to doing so.


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## tabora (Mar 1, 2017)

IDEngineer said:


> ...And the winner was... turbodiesel-electric hybrid, e.g. a smallish diesel engine charging a battery that powers one or more electric motors...


Hence the logic behind the HS1336iAS: https://powerequipment.honda.com/snowblowers/models/hs1336iashttp://m.powerequipment.honda.com/snowblowers/models/hs1336ias


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

crazzywolfie said:


> i get that but i bet companies that encourage using electric cars are getting tax breaks or benefits that more than covers the cost of any electricity used. they probably would charge for power used plus some if not but even then i bet it would likely only cost $1-2/day to commute. ya it ads up in the long run but the governments are trying to push for people to drive electric vehicles and the best way to do it is offer benefits to doing so.



The end result is the same. Someone else is paying for their decision to drive an electric car. If they were so great, they wouldn't need "incentives" (other people's money) to do that.


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## crazzywolfie (Jun 2, 2014)

jsup said:


> The end result is the same. Someone else is paying for their decision to drive an electric car. If they were so great, they wouldn't need "incentives" (other people's money) to do that.


i really don't see anything wrong with trying to encourage people to drive a electric car. they can't improve them if they don't have them out there on the road. electric cars are likely going to be the way of the future.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

crazzywolfie said:


> i really don't see anything wrong with trying to encourage people to drive a electric car. they can't improve them if they don't have them out there on the road. electric cars are likely going to be the way of the future.



I believe more strongly in the free market. Government shouldn't pick winners or losers, but we're getting way off track here.


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## vinnycom (Nov 6, 2017)

crazzywolfie said:


> i really don't see anything wrong with trying to encourage people to drive a electric car. they can't improve them if they don't have them out there on the road. electric cars are likely going to be the way of the future.


question is what do u do with all those spent batteries, there not exactly a recyclable material and if they are it wont be cheap. electric cars are not really a zero pollution vehicle.
imo in the next 10-20 yrs it will be hydrogen


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## micah68kj (Oct 8, 2011)

Maybe next year we'll see a Tesla blower. :wink2:


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## Dag Johnsen (Dec 24, 2018)

micah68kj said:


> Maybe next year we'll see a Tesla blower. :wink2:



:surprise:


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## SayItAintSnow (Dec 15, 2017)

I'm a little surprised, in reading over this thread, that in a place where so many of us here have a definite "snowblower jones" that no one has yet brought up the subject of the sounds that our machines make as they are serving us.

Yeah....I know, it's a little bit silly when weighed against the considerations for greater reliability, less maintenance, etc., but you have to admit, gas powered machines have a certain soul, that can never be replicated by electric motors. And that may be just one of the reasons we love them so much. :blowerhug:

For a kid that grew up in the sixties, the sounds of an internal combustion engine was the sound of innovation and power. It was the sound of the hot rods we built, aircraft engines, and for me most importantly: _*race cars!*_

One of the most horrible examples of the push to transition to electric motors replacing I/C engines can be found in the relatively new venue of Formula-E racing. And yes, I know and appreciate that these cars are great examples of leading edge technology, and they _look_ as awesome as their gas powered Formula 1 cousins, but I'm sorry, these cars have no soul. :icon-thumbsdown:

The races are shorter because even with the virtually unlimited amounts of money the teams have to spend on equipment, the batteries only last so long. I think top speed is somewhere around 160 mph, which while it sounds fast, keep in mind that IndyCars were going that fast in the 1960's. 

Then there's the most admittedly childish reason I have for not liking these cars. They don't _*sound*_ like race cars. There's no roar nor scream of a hi-reving engine as these cars pass you by, and your first impression is: _"Wait...this is all wrong"_. :smiley-confused013:

If your only interest is the pioneering engineering aspect of the Formula-E then I guess to each his own. As for me, the internal combustion racing engine will never be replaced in my heart by cars that sound like a bunch of dang sewing machines going around the track! And I guess this is one of those times that being older is an advantage. I'll probably not live to see the day when our beloved gas engine power equipment has been replaced by soulless electric motors. :icon_blue_very_sad:
.
.


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

On the flip side, I wouldn't mind a nice quiet blower  I wouldn't feel as bad when I have to start clearing the driveway at 5:30 in the morning. And not needing hearing protection would be nice. 

And in *some* performance aspects, electric already beats gas. I believe one upcoming Tesla variant goes 0-60 in 1.9 seconds. And a current model S version can do it in 2.3. That is nuts. Admittedly, this speaks more to instantaneous power delivery, rather than total energy capacity (range).

For a hobby of mine, there are fuel-powered versions, and electric. The electric have shorter flight times, but more power, less vibration, and they're quiet enough that you're much less likely to bother people. So I went the electric path, and am happy with it. 

With my charger, and a quiet inverter generator, I can charge batteries A & B while I fly battery C, and can rotate them out, flying as long as I want, just stopping to land and swap batteries. It's an acceptable compromise to me.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

vinnycom said:


> question is what do u do with all those spent batteries, there not exactly a recyclable material and if they are it wont be cheap. electric cars are not really a zero pollution vehicle.
> imo in the next 10-20 yrs it will be hydrogen



The manufacture, use, and disposal of electric snowblowers, vehicles, etc... is far more damaging to the environment than gasoline engines. It's not even arguable. It just moves the pollution from A-B. Ever see the mining operations required to make the batteries? 



Ford is testing an engine that is twice as efficient as current internal combustion. It has no cyl head, and opposing pistons. The technology has been around a while, it's just starting to take notice. 



New Engine Could Help Ford F-150 Hit 30 MPG|Ford Authority


Years ago, taking technology from busses in Brazil I believe it was, Ford had a HYDRAULIC HYBRID F-150 that got 60-70 mpg. It never made it to market. I had a huge hydraulic piston that would get pressurized when slowing down (not sure how) but when you started out from a dead stop, it pushed the vehicle along, since that's when most of the gas was used. 



So is GM:


2019 Silverado Engines: Rumored Opposed-Piston Powertrain To Enter Testing With Ford F-150 | GM Authority


That being said, I like the CONCEPT of electric things, as I have said before. Makes maintenance much simpler, 100% torque from the first RPM, etc.. A lot of good reasons. But it's just not there yet, and clearly saving the environment isn't the main reason to do it.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

RedOctobyr said:


> On the flip side, I wouldn't mind a nice quiet blower  I wouldn't feel as bad when I have to start clearing the driveway at 5:30 in the morning. And not needing hearing protection would be nice.
> 
> And in *some* performance aspects, electric already beats gas. I believe one upcoming Tesla variant goes 0-60 in 1.9 seconds. And a current model S version can do it in 2.3. That is nuts. Admittedly, this speaks more to instantaneous power delivery, rather than total energy capacity (range).
> 
> ...



The fastest remote control boat was done with electric motors. Electric has a lot of advantages. For one, in a car for example, if there's a motor on each wheel, and one fails, there's redundancy.


Where money is no object (formula 1 racing) hybrids are used.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

SayItAintSnow said:


> I'm a little surprised, in reading over this thread, that in a place where so many of us here have a definite "snowblower jones" that no one has yet brought up the subject of the sounds that our machines make as they are serving us.
> 
> Yeah....I know, it's a little bit silly when weighed against the considerations for greater reliability, less maintenance, etc., but you have to admit, gas powered machines have a certain soul, that can never be replicated by electric motors. And that may be just one of the reasons we love them so much. :blowerhug:
> 
> ...



I agree. I should have read this before posting the same thing above, oh well, it's up.


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## gibbs296 (Jun 22, 2014)

Loud = hearing loss. If I have to wear hearing protection, I'm not enjoying the loudness, nor are my neighbors. Electrics are coming hard and fast.


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## Dag Johnsen (Dec 24, 2018)

*100% agree*



SayItAintSnow said:


> I'm a little surprised, in reading over this thread, that in a place where so many of us here have a definite "snowblower jones" that no one has yet brought up the subject of the sounds that our machines make as they are serving us.
> 
> Yeah....I know, it's a little bit silly when weighed against the considerations for greater reliability, less maintenance, etc., but you have to admit, gas powered machines have a certain soul, that can never be replicated by electric motors. And that may be just one of the reasons we love them so much. :blowerhug:
> 
> ...



Best post I ever saw here:3tens:


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## IDEngineer (Oct 16, 2018)

gibbs296 said:


> Loud = hearing loss. If I have to wear hearing protection, I'm not enjoying the loudness, nor are my neighbors. Electrics are coming hard and fast.


 I agree, this would be one of the best advantages of electric power for snowblowers.

It's also perhaps the very best reason I'd be interested in an electric car right now. But seriously, you cannot please everyone. Did you know there is a movement trying to force electric cars to ADD EXTERNAL SPEAKERS TO EMIT ARTIFICIAL ENGINE NOISE?!? I am not making that up. Seems the vision-impaired industry considers electric cars a danger because they do not acoustically "announce" their approach or presence. Well, neither do bicycles (and some of those couriers move faster than cars!).

While I am sensitive to the plight of the blind, it boggles the mind that one of the key advantages of electric vehicles - at last, a reduction in noise pollution particularly in crowded cities - would be specifically opposed and artificially destroyed while also adding cost and power consumption. What's wrong with peace, quiet, AND better efficiency? Un-freaking-believable.

EDIT: Here's a link to a regulatory change, proposed during the Obama era, to specifically make those nasty "too quiet" electric cars more noisy. You just can't make up stuff this crazy.


https://www.nhtsa.gov/staticfiles/rulemaking/pdf/Quiet_Cars_Draft_EA.pdf


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

I get what you're saying. But a bike is generally just traveling forward (and is of course much less likely to cause serious injury than a car). The driver might be backing up, etc, and might not see the visually-impaired person. I've been surprised by hybrids and Teslas while walking through parking lots, when they're moving slowly and just kind of making a little "whirr" noise. 

I don't want to make them as loud as gas cars. But I can see the benefit of some sort of noise.


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## tdipaul (Jul 11, 2015)

.
IMO you could buy a nice new gas machine today and by the time its worn out we might have good enough electric versions

The batteries will have to power the machine for at least the equivalent run time of 2 tanks of gas

Otherwise people will have to stop and wait for 6-8(?) hours to charge the battery and resume work.


I like the idea of having multiple packs to swap in (IE re-fuel)

but batts are not cheap enough yet to have spares

nor do they hold full power/charge long enough


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## SayItAintSnow (Dec 15, 2017)

gibbs296 said:


> _Loud = hearing loss. If I have to wear hearing protection, I'm not enjoying the loudness, nor are my neighbors. Electrics are coming hard and fast._





I'm sorry Gibbs'......Would you mind repeating that. I couldn't hear you because my favorite snowblower was running.....:devil:


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

I suspect that if you look at the decibel/time limits on current blowers, that you will find that from the operators position, the risks are trivial at best . . . My newest machine with 2x the engine of the old one is 1/2 the level. I don't have my SPL meter up here with me, but I'd be glad to take a reading sometime. Unless you are exposed for hours at a time, it's unlikely that any recent blower is any risk at all . . .


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## rslifkin (Mar 5, 2018)

tadawson said:


> I suspect that if you look at the decibel/time limits on current blowers, that you will find that from the operators position, the risks are trivial at best . . . My newest machine with 2x the engine of the old one is 1/2 the level. I don't have my SPL meter up here with me, but I'd be glad to take a reading sometime. Unless you are exposed for hours at a time, it's unlikely that any recent blower is any risk at all . . .


I dunno about that. My Honda mower is around 92 - 93 decibels under load (with possibly slightly higher peaks), so pretty close to the 1 hour limit (94db) for NIOSH standards (OSHA standards are not as strict and say 105db is fine for an hour). It's not uncomfortably loud to use for an hour although hearing protection won't hurt. I haven't measured it, but the Briggs on my Pro 28 is significantly louder at 3600 - 3700 rpm even with no load on it. As in, it's almost painful to stand behind it with it run up to full speed. Under load it's even louder. Hearing protection is a must with that thing.


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## tabora (Mar 1, 2017)

RedOctobyr said:


> On the flip side, I wouldn't mind a nice quiet blower  I wouldn't feel as bad when I have to start clearing the driveway at 5:30 in the morning. And not needing hearing protection would be nice.


If you haven't used one, the electric snowblowers are surprisingly noisy. The whine from the motor and the noise from the augers/impeller doing their thing may actually be a significant fraction of what my HSS1332ATD / GX390 produces, although in an entirely different register.

They are much noisier than a Tesla or Nissan.


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

That's a good point. My little electric Toro is quieter than my gas 2-stage. But it's louder than you might expect, as a somewhat high pitched whine. And it's all belt driven, though one belt *is* toothed. But no noisy gears. 

For those of us having lost hearing for various reasons (including medical, not just noisy environments), I'm very protective of what remains, and am diligent about hearing protection. 

So if something "seems" loud, I'll be wearing something, even if it's under an organization's threshold. I think I used earplugs even for my electric last year, just to be safe.


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

rslifkin said:


> I dunno about that. My Honda mower is around 92 - 93 decibels under load (with possibly slightly higher peaks), so pretty close to the 1 hour limit (94db) for NIOSH standards (OSHA standards are not as strict and say 105db is fine for an hour). It's not uncomfortably loud to use for an hour although hearing protection won't hurt. I haven't measured it, but the Briggs on my Pro 28 is significantly louder at 3600 - 3700 rpm even with no load on it. As in, it's almost painful to stand behind it with it run up to full speed. Under load it's even louder. Hearing protection is a must with that thing.



Measured where exactly? If in front of the muffler, I'd expect a much higher reading than off axis. Also, other than folks who clear snow for a living, I'd be hard pressed be out for an hour . . . Did three major drives (one not cleared for 2+ weeks - 20" deep in places) in just under an hour . . . I'll stick with "Not an issue" for me . . . 



Also, just to verify . . . was your reading A weighted? Makes a lot of difference in looking at the specs . . . OSHA is saying 95 dBA is acceptable for 4 hours daily . . . NIOSH (as you note) is more conservative. Since this isn't necessarily a daily exposure, I'll stick with my conclusion . . . and either my old Toro or much quieter new Ariens, I have never felt to be terribly loud unless next to a wall or some such from the operator position . . . I guess perception is everything on that . . . 



Not that OSHA is gods gift . . .


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

tabora said:


> If you haven't used one, the electric snowblowers are surprisingly noisy. The whine from the motor and the noise from the augers/impeller doing their thing may actually be a significant fraction of what my HSS1332ATD / GX390 produces, although in an entirely different register.
> 
> They are much nosier than a Tesla or Nissan.



Not really that surprising. Most of the really high powered small motors rely on crazy high shaft speeds, likely well beyond the 3600 RPM of an engine, and thus will likely require different reduction mechanisms to get to usable speeds by the blower. Yes, those can be made quiet, but often are not that great, due to the cost to do so . . .


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## crazzywolfie (Jun 2, 2014)

vinnycom said:


> question is what do u do with all those spent batteries, there not exactly a recyclable material and if they are it wont be cheap. electric cars are not really a zero pollution vehicle.
> imo in the next 10-20 yrs it will be hydrogen


but the battery packs could be dissected and recycled/rebuilt. i don't know a ton about lithium batteries but i doubt they all up and die when a battery pack starts acting up. some people even build some of their own lithium power packs for stuff out of recycled lithium batteries.


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

Rebuilding a pack is not recycling a cell . . . dead cells are pretty much dead, and lithium batteries do nasty thing when punctured and exposed to air . . . The guys 'rebuilding' packs are just replacing old dead cells with old not dead yet cells and squeaking a bit more life out of the pack. The result, however, is nowhere near a new pack. Lithium is 3.6v per cell, NiCd/NiMH 1.2, lead acid 2.0 . . . Cells are both paralleled (for current) and series (for voltage) to make a useful pack.


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## crazzywolfie (Jun 2, 2014)

i get that. i really don't know what they would do with dead cells but still replacing dead batteries and extending the life battery packs is doable. it is not like the battery packs are just going to be thrown out when a couple fail.


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## rslifkin (Mar 5, 2018)

I'm pretty sure the meter I used was A weighted. Sound reading was taken standing behind the mower, where you would be while mowing and with the blades engaged.


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

Sorry, I misread mower as blower. That makes sense, since A weight rolls off low freqs quite a bit, and mower blade noise is higher pitched than a snowblower. Odd, thouh, in that I also have a Honda mower, and part of the sales pitch is that you could have a conversation when it is running . . .

Last question: real SPL meter, or phone app? And if phone app, was it calibrated or not?

- Tim


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## gibbs296 (Jun 22, 2014)

Here is the new electric Harley, bigger 2 stage blowers probably aren't far off...


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## rslifkin (Mar 5, 2018)

tadawson said:


> Sorry, I misread mower as blower. That makes sense, since A weight rolls off low freqs quite a bit, and mower blade noise is higher pitched than a snowblower. Odd, thouh, in that I also have a Honda mower, and part of the sales pitch is that you could have a conversation when it is running . . .
> 
> Last question: real SPL meter, or phone app? And if phone app, was it calibrated or not?
> 
> - Tim


Calibrated phone app. So not perfect, but probably enough to get a ballpark idea of noise. Compared to most of my neighbors' mowers, the Honda is fairly quiet in terms of engine noise until you get a really good load on it. But at least after making sure the governor was set to the upper end of spec, the blades moving air is still pretty loud. Compared to the mower, the Briggs on my Pro 28 seems slightly quieter at idle than the mower at idle (and the blower is lower pitched). But under load it throws a lot of noise. Doesn't help that both the engine and the exhaust outlet are closer to the operator on the blower either.


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

I'd measure mine, but my calibrated meter (a real one) is 1300 miles from the blower . . . won't likely happen anytime soon . . .


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

rslifkin said:


> Calibrated phone app.


That's interesting! How do you calibrate a phone app? Do you need a "real" meter to check it against?


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

Typically, and then it depends on how lazy the writers of the app were as to the accurracy of the weightings, coupled with how bad the phone microphone is . . . Good for approximations at best, but nothing I would trust for important applications. You can typically only calibrate the level on the phone apps - mics, etc. vary from phone to phone and will introduce errors.

To calibrate a "real" meter, typically a calibration noise source is used that the meter physically is attatched to to ensure nonvariables. To calibrate a phone, about the best you can do is place it next to a calibrated meter and set them to match . . .


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## tabora (Mar 1, 2017)

Maybe the future is closer than we think? Snow-Joe now has a 100V cordless blower: https://mailchi.mp/snowjoe.com/umyzmxoctf-187761?e=554c4bd77e


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## Xilbus (Nov 30, 2018)

Hmmm. I wonder if their 2 stage will have the 100v option too.


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

Interesting. Their site mentions up to 30 minutes of run-time: 

https://www.snowjoe.com/products/sn...single-stage-snowblower-21-inch-100-volt-5-ah

For some simple comparisons, in part because they made the numbers easy: 

- SJ lists a 2800W motor. Nice! That's 3.8 hp. 
- my corded Toro Powercurve 1800 is 15A. At 110V, that's up to 1650W, or 2.2 hp. 

So the Snow Joe's peak power output is higher. But the continuous output must be significantly less. 

A 100V, 5Ah battery can provide 500W (100V * 5 Amps) for an hour, or 1000W for a half hour (their claimed run time). At 1000W, that's 1.3 hp continuous. 

I'm going to guess that a 100V 5Ah battery will be fairly expensive, making having a spare a somewhat pricey proposition (at least if you just have one tool that uses them). Hopefully it's enough capacity to clear what you need on one charge, with some capacity to spare (especially needed as the battery ages). 

And this sort of battery capacity won't really cut it for a decent 2-stage. With a lot of machines in the 8 hp range, that's a big electrical load. If we assumed a 5hp constant output, that would be 3725W, and would drain this battery in 8 minutes.


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## WVguy (Nov 24, 2018)

RedOctobyr said:


> Interesting. Their site mentions up to 30 minutes of run-time:
> 
> https://www.snowjoe.com/products/sn...single-stage-snowblower-21-inch-100-volt-5-ah
> <snip>


Hmmm... It could be attractive to a lot of people who hate gasoline engines but unless their clearing needs are minimal (say, townhouse with a small driveway) they will be disappointed. And priced at or above almost all gas powered single stage blowers.

Not ready for prime time yet. A niche market product.


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

RedOctobyr said:


> Interesting. Their site mentions up to 30 minutes of run-time:
> 
> https://www.snowjoe.com/products/sn...single-stage-snowblower-21-inch-100-volt-5-ah
> 
> ...


Note also that at higher discharge rates, you typically cannot get as much total power (AH) out of a battery as you can at smaller loads, thus resulting in heavy load times being even shorter than your examples . . . .andcold can only make it even worse, unless thatbis considered in thier battery ratings. Oh, and batteries list on that link for $299 each . . . Gotta love the BS way everything is rated these days . . . 'Will run up to 30 minutes' . . . .yeah, well a 6 second runtime meets that guarantee . . .


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## tabora (Mar 1, 2017)

A friend has one of Snow-Joe's older 40V machines and I was skeptical that it was useful, but I used it on her driveway with about 8" of snow and it worked well; and longer than the manual said it should. And then I went in and swapped battery packs and finished up. I can only imagine how much better the 100V unit would do. Hopefully the battery pack cost will come down after a while.

The video is certainly impressive.


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## Dag Johnsen (Dec 24, 2018)

*19 hp electric 2 stage video*







(



)


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## russ01915 (Dec 18, 2013)

That demonstration is light fluffy 2-4" of snow. Please post video of it clearing the the end of driveway and 12 inches of snow. Please post video of 4-6" of wet rain soaked snow.


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

That, and the videos are only 2:40 minutes long each. Is that because the battery face-plants at about 3:00? They need to specify run time under heavy loads as well as charging time. Electric always looks good for short periods - that had never been in question . . . it's hang time that typically isn't there yet with todays battery technologies.


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## russ01915 (Dec 18, 2013)

More than likely, the typical owner of battery operated snow blower will need more than 1 battery to get some of the job done. Under ideal situations, they will run great, but how often do you get ideal conditions? Ideal situations 2-4" of fluffy light snow.


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

Yes, and at what cost and weight? To get that much HP running for 30 to 60 minutes takes a *lot* of power! Granted, it won't be pulling full power all the time, but 17HP is 12,600 watts or so, and figuring 90% (generous) efficiency for the motor, that means about 14,000 watts to run it. They don't specify a voltage, so let's use 100v as per the last electric example. So, P=IV, 14,000=I*100, so needs to draw 140 amps for that power, or 140A-H in the battery for an hour runtime. Let's be generous and say 1/2 is a good average . . . that's 70A-H at 100v. Since Lithium is a 3.7volt per cell battery, that's about 27 cells in series to get the voltage, and then whatever number of cells in parallel to get the A-H rating (including any de-rate for cold). I detect very large, very heavy, and quite expensive . . . hardly the ease of adding 1Gal of gas . . . 

Doing a bit of looking, I find 70A-H 12V lithium batteries out there. To get to the proposed 100v, it would take 8, and the listed weight is between 20 and 25 lbs per pack, for a total battery weight of about 200lbs (not including any packaging to hold the mess together and interconnect wiring). I suspect a mfg could shave a bit off, but not much. And that assumes an average loading of 50% . . . hit really ugly conditions and need to run closer to full power, double that . . . 

So, who is up for a 200lbs battery change vs. 6 pounds of gasoline, to do the same job, and god only knows what charge time? Typically at least an hour, and that's only if the line into the charger permits . . . so add the cost of pulling in an 80 amp circuit to feed the charger (fudging a tad for losses in charging and the charger), or wait at least 4 to 5 hours on a normal 20A outlet.

Certainly not much interest here . . . . still seems like a solution in search of a problem . . .


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## russ01915 (Dec 18, 2013)

Thank you for your very concise explanation


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## bumper (Feb 12, 2019)

As posted, energy density is still the primary issue. Gasoline has some 35 to 100 times the energy density of Lithium Ion batteries, depending on who you believe. 

Obviously, for many applications batteries make sense. They have an appealing lower maintenance than gas engines, but some other troubling attributes such as fires. Lithium Ferrous Phosphate batteries are much safer, but also don't have the energy density of Lithium Ion. 

Some self-launch gliders use Lithium batteries, as getting launched doesn't involve a long powered run, often shutting down at a couple of thousand feet will allow you to find a thermal, or other source of lift, and climb away. But, there have been fires in that application too.

Advances in battery technology look to be incremental. Absent some major breakthrough, as good as lithium has been, we are still a long way off.


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