# Seized Engine HSS1332ATD



## RoadWarrior (Apr 17, 2021)

LED lamp assy blew out, installed the new one and put the cover back on. Pull choke, start and it runs. LED lamp illuminates. Great until I heard metal noises like bracelets or coins in the auger area. Checked for obstructions, none. Engine still running until the Torque Sensor takes over and shuts it down.
No electric start so I attempt to pull the recoil in Neutral and it will not budge with all my might. I feared the worst and yes (I forgot to check the oil before testing the LED lamp engine start) there was no oil on the dipstick but no evidence of leakage anywhere though. Now I'm fretting and searched again for a solution here. The only amount of oil I found was in the Drainz-It tube sad to say. Next I sprayed the last half can of PB Blaster til empty for an overnight miracle, no go yet.
I have read dumping a can of Coca Cola to an ATF/Acetone mixture in the spark plug hole would work but my questions are how much in the spark plug hole and what exactly seized? The piston rings or the rod bearing on this particular model? As I added fresh 5W30 in the crankcase hole, out came very faint wispy vapors that I felt was cooked engine internals.
3 hrs later and a failed recoiI attempt I took a 12mm socket and breaker bar and turned the main pulley clockwise but it won't budge. I lean into it and now I'm going to strip the head off that 12mm nut off and here I am looking for any suitable advice.
This machine served me beautifully when it first came out on a 2018 purchase and I loved it til now. Just crazy miffed that I didn't check the damn oil...

Your thoughts and input. Thank you.


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## Yanmar Ronin (Jan 31, 2015)

Welcome to SBF... sorry it's such under unfortunate circumstances.

My guess is that the engine is scrap. Not only the bore, but also the crank bearings are likely wrecked. It wasn't the torque sensor that shot you down, it was the internals of the engine eating itself.

Were you still running on the oil that came in the machine in 2018?


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## RoadWarrior (Apr 17, 2021)

Thanks for the reply. I change the oil every fall as preventative maintenance. It's Fall now and this was the beginning of my PM schedule. If the engine is scrap, how to source another engine and the removal process will be daunting but I'm ready as I have 2 months to source one before Winter arrives.

What do you guys think about getting an extended warranty and calling it later to Honda and say hey I got issues with this model?


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## Yanmar Ronin (Jan 31, 2015)

RoadWarrior said:


> What do you guys think about getting an extended warranty and calling it later to Honda and say hey I got issues with this model?


Your issue was that you didn't check the oil... and yes they can tell.

You wrecked the engine... man up and order a new one, or haul it to the dealer for repairs. The way the supply chain is (not) working right now I dunno about two months. All you can do is ask and see.

Generally we frown upon fraud... please do what's right.


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## CarlB (Jan 2, 2011)

engine is most likely trashed. You can disassemble it and inspect it and if you lucky only rod is destroyed buy doubtful.

I'd be going to harbor freight and picking up a new engine.


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## Jackmels (Feb 18, 2013)

Before you throw in the towel, remove spark plug, and spray PB Blaster into the cylinder. Remove the beltcover, and use a Pipe Wrench on the crankshaft, You may be able to break it free. Make sure oil level is full.


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## oneboltshort (Dec 16, 2019)

RoadWarrior said:


> What do you guys think about getting an extended warranty and calling it later to Honda and say hey I got issues with this model?


Are we really responding to this
Really? Second post is how to cheat Honda?


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## orangputeh (Nov 24, 2016)

TOAST most likely.

But Jack Mels method has worked for me several times. I use Liquid Wrench penetrating oil in spark plug hole and let it sit overnight.

Attach breaker bar with 12mm socket on crankcase pulley wheel and try working back and forth. if it budges then slowly see if it makes a 360 degree turn. If the rod is broke it won't. If it turns then slowly
keep turning for quite awhile until it turns more freely.

Then use the recoil and pull the engine over a couple dozen times. Then change the oil since you have all that penetrating oil in it.
Then try to fire up.It will smoke like a B .at first or it may keep smoking due to damage.

Most likely the engine is toasted so don't get your hopes up. Since you let it run after making noises I am not very optimistic . A quick seizing is actually better.

I got a frantic phone call from a new owner of a 1332 that received his Honda in a crate and did not put oil in it. Same thing happened.

Honda will of course not ( honor ) the warranty. 

Maybe you'll get lucky breaking the engine free but probably some lasting damage if you do. 

Honda engines are almost bulletproof but they need oil to run.


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## Oneacer (Jan 3, 2011)

orangeputeh is one of the Honda guru around here, he will let you know about changing that engine out.

edit .... lol, beat me to the post


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## RoadWarrior (Apr 17, 2021)

oneboltshort said:


> Are we really responding to this
> Really? Second post is how to cheat Honda?


It was a mere thought OrangePuteh, out of frustration at what I'm going through at the moment and spending $3500 back then. I'll add I'm a 2015 GMC Sierra owner with six factory recalls, six times the doubter than Honda recalls their products if that's a fair comparison. I noticed you are the Honda guru. I'm sitting in the garage with a BFH looking for a mechanical solution that's so deceptive but practical.


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## Ziggy65 (Jan 18, 2020)

Hope you get a miracle, and can recover the engine. Trying to screw Honda is wrong and they won't be fooled.

I am a little unclear where the oil went, did you find out where the oil leak was and what caused it?


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## orangputeh (Nov 24, 2016)

RoadWarrior said:


> It was a mere thought OrangePuteh, out of frustration at what I'm going through at the moment and spending $3500 back then. I'll add I'm a 2015 GMC Sierra owner with six factory recalls, six times the doubter than Honda recalls their products if that's a fair comparison. I noticed you are the Honda guru. I'm sitting in the garage with a BFH looking for a mechanical solution that's so deceptive but practical.


Check post #8. That other post you quoted is NOT me.

Jack Mels is the REAL guru here. He is the one I learned from for freeing up seized engines.

Try what we both posted . You may get lucky........

Not sure what an engine costs otherwise . They are not too hard to switch out if it comes down to that. 

I'm just curious why it was out of oil if you did not see any oil leaks which are extremely rare. Was it smoking the last couple years?


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## RoadWarrior (Apr 17, 2021)

I wouldn't fool Honda even if it was on my death day stricken with Covid. I know their reputation is world class so I hope this admission will clear the air.

I have a strong suspicion the oil leak was from the Drainz-It orange tube to facilitate easier and less messy oil changes. Each threaded end from crankcase to the exit spout were tight but there were extremely faint traces of oil at the exit drain end which is my only clue. I'm getting rid of that Drainz-It once I resolve this matter.

My only update is after an overnight soak the PB Blaster didn't help move the engine internals yet. Even with the breaker bar at the 12mm nut and lean on the clockwise position it won't budge. Lefty loosey and I'm disassembling the pulley.

My shop manual says it's a GX390T2 389cc gas engine and seems like a straightforward R&R job.

I'm toying with the idea of dumping Coca Cola or 50-50 mix of ATF/ Acetone. Don't know which I'll try first but I have a can of Coke from last nights Jack Daniels binge. Happy Sunday everyone and really appreciate the feedback.


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## RoadWarrior (Apr 17, 2021)

orangputeh said:


> Check post #8. That other post you quoted is NOT me.
> 
> Jack Mels is the REAL guru here. He is the one I learned from for freeing up seized engines.
> 
> ...


Gotcha... Well no evidence of engine smoke since ownership. Even with a Seafoam treatment. 

These GX390T2 engines are pricey at between $900-1300. I guess I'll bite the bullet after these recommendations today.


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## WrenchIt (Dec 6, 2020)

Coke will do nothing for you. It's carbonated water, flavorings and mildly acidic. You DON'T want it in your engine. Acetone and ATF fluid - a 50-50 mix has been suggested on the internet as a top notch penetrating oil. I think it was called 'Red's Formula' but I'm not sure. What all these top end 'cures' will do, is hopefully allow frozen piston rings (well actually, they are welded to the cylinder walls w/ micro welds) to break free. I watched an expert restore an old Jag engine on youtube. One of the cylinders was frozen in place and he poured penetrating oil on top of the piston (no cyl head) and let it sit for a long time. Then he broke it free w/ wood blocks and a hammer. I've read of guys restoring hit and miss engines the same way, soaking frozen cylinders for months sometimes before the piston can be broken free.

In your case, you might have frozen the main bearings, and/or the connecting rod bearings. Pouring P oil into the cylinder will do nothing to loosen these, and you just might break something with a big enough wrench. Note that the suggestions above were to use a pipe wrench and not try to twist the head off that bolt.

With the certain knowledge that there is internal engine damage, were this mine, I'd try to disassemble the engine and find what's broken/damaged rather than use quick fixes that might make things worse. Over the years I've discovered that I can spend my time trying to repair something or buy a new part/motor and simply replace it. The latter allows me to move on to an activity I enjoy more.


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## RoadWarrior (Apr 17, 2021)

Jackmels said:


> Before you throw in the towel, remove spark plug, and spray PB Blaster into the cylinder. Remove the beltcover, and use a Pipe Wrench on the crankshaft, You may be able to break it free. Make sure oil level is full.


Done that with a left and right rocking motion with 1.1 qts of fresh oil. I bought more Liquid Wrench penetrant today which I'll spray and flood the top cylinder hole but I'm unsure how far that goes to reach and lubricate the rod bearing. Maybe a full can or two application will fill the closed crankcase approximately 1.1 quarts? Gotta do the math. 

So far PB Blaster didn't work for me. Liquid Wrench next. I'll try the CRC line of products. Found a half can of Seafoam Deep Creep in my stash. Feel like that Project Farm dude on YouTube at the moment.


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## WrenchIt (Dec 6, 2020)

RoadWarrior said:


> So far PB Blaster didn't work for me. Liquid Wrench next. I'll try the CRC line of products.


Any one of these is likely to work (if this approach will work at all), but it is going to take time. Days, maybe weeks, or even a month or more.


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## RoadWarrior (Apr 17, 2021)

WrenchIt said:


> Coke will do nothing for you. It's carbonated water, flavorings and mildly acidic. You DON'T want it in your engine. Acetone and ATF fluid - a 50-50 mix has been suggested on the internet as a top notch penetrating oil. I think it was called 'Red's Formula' but I'm not sure. What all these top end 'cures' will do, is hopefully allow frozen piston rings (well actually, they are welded to the cylinder walls w/ micro welds) to break free. I watched an expert restore an old Jag engine on youtube. One of the cylinders was frozen in place and he poured penetrating oil on top of the piston (no cyl head) and let it sit for a long time. Then he broke it free w/ wood blocks and a hammer. I've read of guys restoring hit and miss engines the same way, soaking frozen cylinders for months sometimes before the piston can be broken free.
> 
> In your case, you might have frozen the main bearings, and/or the connecting rod bearings. Pouring P oil into the cylinder will do nothing to loosen these, and you just might break something with a big enough wrench. Note that the suggestions above were to use a pipe wrench and not try to twist the head off that bolt.
> 
> With the certain knowledge that there is internal engine damage, were this mine, I'd try to disassemble the engine and find what's broken/damaged rather than use quick fixes that might make things worse. Over the years I've discovered that I can spend my time trying to repair something or buy a new part/motor and simply replace it. The latter allows me to move on to an activity I enjoy more.


Acknowledged sir. The wealth and experience offered here is humbling to me. No more Coke ideas from now on. I'll follow up on the ATF/ Acetone experiment.


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## orangputeh (Nov 24, 2016)

RoadWarrior said:


> Done that with a left and right rocking motion with 1.1 qts of fresh oil. I bought more Liquid Wrench penetrant today which I'll spray and flood the top cylinder hole but I'm unsure how far that goes to reach and lubricate the rod bearing. Maybe a full can or two application will fill the closed crankcase approximately 1.1 quarts? Gotta do the math.
> 
> So far PB Blaster didn't work for me. Liquid Wrench next. I'll try the CRC line of products. Found a half can of Seafoam Deep Creep in my stash. Feel like that Project Farm dude on YouTube at the moment.


I have to agree with @WrenchIt . let it sit for several days with the penetrating oil and see if you can move it. However if it is the main bearing the oil is not gonna help. Almost every engine i have unseized was never really the same afterwards. They smoked or had other issues.

If the engine seized quickly maybe the cylinder is not that scored and you could rebuild it. depends if the journal on the crank is scored. I am rebuilding an older gx240 right now. Got the rebuild kit from Everest Parts LLC for about $65 that includes gaskets, piston, rings , etc. It's just a fun thing for me to do since gx240's are very cheap in the first place.

A guy brought a seized 928 to me. same reason. very little oil in crankcase. I had a spare gx270 in the shed . Charged him $150 for engine and $100 to switch them out. He was happy as a clam.

In your case , unless you are extremely lucky , you may have to change engines. Right now there are not too many cheap HSS machines out there that you could scavenge for an engine. For $900-1300 for a new engine , plus labor , I just don't know what I'd do. I do like the older HS models better. An older 1132-1332 can be had for around 1200-1500USD in the summer. A lot more now.

If you were close to me I would love to help out. I love challenges like this. Many people have brought me seized engines and I love bringing them back to life. It's 50-50 at best though on success (or less )


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## nitehawk55 (Sep 9, 2021)

Is a short block available from Honda ?


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## RoadWarrior (Apr 17, 2021)

orangputeh said:


> I have to agree with @WrenchIt . let it sit for several days with the penetrating oil and see if you can move it. However if it is the main bearing the oil is not gonna help. Almost every engine i have unseized was never really the same afterwards. They smoked or had other issues.
> 
> If the engine seized quickly maybe the cylinder is not that scored and you could rebuild it. depends if the journal on the crank is scored. I am rebuilding an older gx240 right now. Got the rebuild kit from Everest Parts LLC for about $65 that includes gaskets, piston, rings , etc. It's just a fun thing for me to do since gx240's are very cheap in the first place.
> 
> ...


My quick 10 minute search online reveals that the Honda GX390T2 engines are sold out.p


nitehawk55 said:


> Is a short block available from Honda ?


Unfortunately I called the nearest Honda Power Equipment dealer in Connecticut and he was only willing to assert that he's available next Monday on Columbus Day after 8am and informed me that Service and Parts will get involved in expediting a query ONLY to a source a complete GX390T2 engine during business hours. This was at 3:59PM EST before they closed at 4PM. At least I got their attention. I see where you're going with this and I'm interested with a short block as I have shade tree experience in swapping parts. Shop manual makes is look way too easy. Removal of negative battery cable, wire harnesses on electric start models, air cleaner cover, silencer nose, recoil starter and auger belts. THEN the fun begins with 4 hold down bolts for engine removal. From there I have 2-3 months before I see snowflakes.


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## RoadWarrior (Apr 17, 2021)

Just adding to my post. Entire cylinder is filled with Liquid Wrench for an extended soak, it's slowly draining in the crankcase. Didn't have any acetone onsite but I was busy cleaning a 1984 3HP 20" Aircap Industries Snow Champ Snowthrower. It runs but needs cleaning and other issues I'll post on a separate thread eventually. Amazon and Jack's Small Engines doesn't carry the ribbed auger belt MTD 706-11584 anymore.


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## Dusty (Dec 13, 2018)

RoadWarrior said:


> Just adding to my post. Entire cylinder is filled with Liquid Wrench for an extended soak, it's slowly draining in the crankcase. Didn't have any acetone onsite but I was busy cleaning a 1984 3HP 20" Aircap Industries Snow Champ Snowthrower. It runs but needs cleaning and other issues I'll post on a separate thread eventually. Amazon and Jack's Small Engines doesn't carry the ribbed auger belt MTD 706-11584 anymore.
> View attachment 181289
> 
> View attachment 181290


I personally use marvel mystery oil for a siezed engine. Have been successful several times. These methods of pouring liquids down the cylinder are only to free up the piston rings from the bore. They will not do anything for a gauled up crankshaft journal and connecting rod. If the crank journal and connecting rod got damaged, those parts will be toast. Let the fluids you have used in the head soak for a few days. Than try to break it free back and fourth with a breaker bar, don't force it, just enough leverage to break the piston free without snapping the bolt. If it doesn't free up, you need to open the engine and see what was damaged. If the bore isn't in bad shape, you may be able to get by with a new crank, rod and rings, if the bore is scarred, you can take it to a machine shop and have them enlarge the bore, than you can use oversized piston and rings. Otherwise its time to place an order for a short block or new engine now and hope you can get your hands on one sooner than later with the supply chain issues. If they say its going to take many months, I would go on craigslist and buy a good spare machine in the meantime for this winter, to hold you over, until you can secure a new engine. Hey you may get lucky and find a honda on their that has the engine you need at a good deal, but thats a long shot. What I and many still don't understand, is where did all of that oil go? If it had all leaked out, their would be a puddle of oil on the floor, or a large stain on the ground where it soaked in, if it was leaking while you were operating the machine, you would have seen it in the snow. Are you sure you did not drain the oil in the spring with the intention of adding fresh oil in the fall? Either way, I feel your pain, I would be sick too, if my almost new $3500 snowblower's engine became toast. Good luck. I had that little Aircap snowblower in the past. One of the best designed single stage they ever made with the air vanes.


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## RoadWarrior (Apr 17, 2021)

Dusty said:


> I personally use marvel mystery oil for a siezed engine. Have been successful several times. These methods of pouring liquids down the cylinder are only to free up the piston rings from the bore. They will not do anything for a gauled up crankshaft journal and connecting rod. If the crank journal and connecting rod got damaged, those parts will be toast. Let the fluids you have used in the head soak for a few days. Than try to break it free back and fourth with a breaker bar, don't force it, just enough leverage to break the piston free without snapping the bolt. If it doesn't free up, you need to open the engine and see what was damaged. If the bore isn't in bad shape, you may be able to get by with a new crank, rod and rings, if the bore is scarred, you can take it to a machine shop and have them enlarge the bore, than you can use oversized piston and rings. Otherwise its time to place an order for a short block or new engine now and hope you can get your hands on one sooner than later with the supply chain issues. If they say its going to take many months, I would go on craigslist and buy a good spare machine in the meantime for this winter, to hold you over, until you can secure a new engine. Hey you may get lucky and find a honda on their that has the engine you need at a good deal, but thats a long shot. What I and many still don't understand, is where did all of that oil go? If it had all leaked out, their would be a puddle of oil on the floor, or a large stain on the ground where it soaked in, if it was leaking while you were operating the machine, you would have seen it in the snow. Are you sure you did not drain the oil in the spring with the intention of adding fresh oil in the fall? Either way, I feel your pain, I would be sick too, if my almost new $3500 snowblower's engine became toast. Good luck. I had that little Aircap snowblower in the past. One of the best designed single stage they ever made with the air vanes.


Thanks for your insightful reply. I have a 150ft driveway that was a cakewalk for my HSS1332ATD. Where the oil went is still a mystery but the last time I checked was last falls annual maintenance checkup and then let her rip in the winter with no signs of oil leakage. Neither blue smoke was detected but the Drainz-It oil tube was in the slightest bit moist. This snowblower sits atop several layers of corrugated cardboard so the hard to clear snow melts in my garage slowly and that probably is the Drainz-It tube slow leak from March 2021 til yesterday I'm suspecting but 1 quart of oil would leave an obvious stain on cardboard which isn't apparent here. I'll try the Marvel Mystery Oil, 2 quarts in my inventory.

All of you have been extremely helpful, again thanks for the feedback. I wish I didn't sell my '87 Chevy pickup truck and buy a cheap plow for front end snow clearance.


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## PhilThefarmer (Dec 21, 2020)

RoadWarrior said:


> Thanks for your insightful reply. I have a 150ft driveway that was a cakewalk for my HSS1332ATD. Where the oil went is still a mystery but the last time I checked was last falls annual maintenance checkup and then let her rip in the winter with no signs of oil leakage. Neither blue smoke was detected but the Drainz-It oil tube was in the slightest bit moist. This snowblower sits atop several layers of corrugated cardboard so the hard to clear snow melts in my garage slowly and that probably is the Drainz-It tube slow leak from March 2021 til yesterday I'm suspecting but 1 quart of oil would leave an obvious stain on cardboard which isn't apparent here. I'll try the Marvel Mystery Oil, 2 quarts in my inventory.
> 
> All of you have been extremely helpful, again thanks for the feedback. I wish I didn't sell my '87 Chevy pickup truck and buy a cheap plow for front end snow clearance.


maybe another recommendation, try to get on of these oil, I have had good luck getting stuck engine unstuck, just put it in the sparkplug hole and let it sit for 24 to 48 hours, then try oving the engine with a breaker bar, and a pipe for more leverage.


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## orangputeh (Nov 24, 2016)

Maybe get full insurance coverage on it and let someone "steal" it.

I am Sicilian and larceny is in my blood........


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## WrenchIt (Dec 6, 2020)

PhilThefarmer said:


> maybe another recommendation, try to get on of these oil, I have had good luck getting stuck engine unstuck, just put it in the sparkplug hole and let it sit for 24 to 48 hours, then try oving the engine with a breaker bar, and a pipe for more leverage.
> View attachment 181292


Three in one is just a light machine oil - similar to sewing machine oil. The fact of the matter is virtually any oil/penetrating oil will work, the latter being thinner will simply work more quickly.


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## WrenchIt (Dec 6, 2020)

orangputeh said:


> Maybe get full insurance coverage on it and let someone "steal" it.
> 
> I am Sicilian and larceny is in my blood........


If he posts his address, you can snatch the snowblower. That solves two issues. You have a challenge you would really enjoy digging into, and he gets to claim the snowblower was stolen. His homeowners insurance kicks in, less that hefty deductible.  A win win.


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## contender (Jan 18, 2018)

RoadWarrior said:


> I wouldn't fool Honda even if it was on my death day stricken with Covid. I know their reputation is world class so I hope this admission will clear the air.
> 
> I have a strong suspicion the oil leak was from the Drainz-It orange tube to facilitate easier and less messy oil changes. Each threaded end from crankcase to the exit spout were tight but there were extremely faint traces of oil at the exit drain end which is my only clue. I'm getting rid of that Drainz-It once I resolve this matter.
> 
> ...


I strongly doubt your Drainz-it hose created the problem, I have them installed on every small engine I own with the exception of my 2 Honda EU2200 gennys that dont have a drain port other than the filling cap. If your engine lost a litre of oil while sitting you would have noticed...

The Drainz-it hose is reliable if the user does his/her part IMO..... and forget about the coke...except for the 40C....


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## CarlB (Jan 2, 2011)

Even if you get the engine to turn over and start i personally wouldn't trust it.
I would bite the bullet today and take the engine off put it on the bench and disassemble it and see what's going on inside.
The rod is almost 100% guaranteed to be toast and if there is alum on the crank it can safely be removed in many cases without damaging the crank.
Replacing a rod is cheap and I'd want to know what was going on inside the engine before i depended on it for snow removal this winter.
you can get clone parts cheap for this engine including cranks rods. If the cylinder is badly scoured i would just replace the engine. 

If it is unreasonable to repair the engine i would get a harbor freight 13hp engine and put that on it for 400 dollars.









13 HP (420cc) OHV Horizontal Shaft Gas Engine, EPA/CARB


Amazing deals on this 13Hp (420Cc) Horiz Shaft Gas Engine at Harbor Freight. Quality tools & low prices.




www.harborfreight.com


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## PhilThefarmer (Dec 21, 2020)

RoadWarrior said:


> Thanks for your insightful reply. I have a 150ft driveway that was a cakewalk for my HSS1332ATD. Where the oil went is still a mystery but the last time I checked was last falls annual maintenance checkup and then let her rip in the winter with no signs of oil leakage. Neither blue smoke was detected but the Drainz-It oil tube was in the slightest bit moist. This snowblower sits atop several layers of corrugated cardboard so the hard to clear snow melts in my garage slowly and that probably is the Drainz-It tube slow leak from March 2021 til yesterday I'm suspecting but 1 quart of oil would leave an obvious stain on cardboard which isn't apparent here. I'll try the Marvel Mystery Oil, 2 quarts in my inventory.
> 
> All of you have been extremely helpful, again thanks for the feedback. I wish I didn't sell my '87 Chevy pickup truck and buy a cheap plow for front end snow clearance.


I would actually try the warranty, not for the fact that your engine is seized, but for the fact that it lost oil, and you don't know from where, expect for the drain tube, but you are not sure, try putting oil in it, let it sit for a week, then check if the oil has leaked out, if it did, but you can't see it, they might be another hidden problem with the engine, that wouldn,t be you fault


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## orangputeh (Nov 24, 2016)

PhilThefarmer said:


> I would actually try the warranty, not for the fact that your engine is seized, but for the fact that it lost oil, and you don't know from where, expect for the drain tube, but you are not sure, try putting oil in it, let it sit for a week, then check if the oil has leaked out, if it did, but you can't see it, they might be another hidden problem with the engine, that wouldn,t be you fault





PhilThefarmer said:


> I would actually try the warranty, not for the fact that your engine is seized, but for the fact that it lost oil, and you don't know from where, expect for the drain tube, but you are not sure, try putting oil in it, let it sit for a week, then check if the oil has leaked out, if it did, but you can't see it, they might be another hidden problem with the engine, that wouldn,t be you fault


You may be right. There was/is some kind of fault here since the owner did check the oil from time to time. It was losing oil from somewhere; a leak or burning off too quickly. I have seen many Honda engines that are full of oil after 7-10-15 years and the owner NEVER checked the oil.

it's worth the a try.


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## WrenchIt (Dec 6, 2020)

PhilThefarmer said:


> I would actually try the warranty, not for the fact that your engine is seized, but for the fact that it lost oil, and you don't know from where, expect for the drain tube, but you are not sure, try putting oil in it, let it sit for a week, then check if the oil has leaked out, if it did, but you can't see it, they might be another hidden problem with the engine, that wouldn,t be you fault


I hate to say this, but I'll be the bad guy for a minute. Absent a crack in the bottom of the crankcase (where the oil escaped) and obvious signs that the casting is/was defective, the OP has no chance of getting satisfaction from Honda. He admitted the storage situation was iffy - the snowblower was stored on a pile of old cardboard where an oil leak would not be obvious. He admitted he did not check the oil before starting, and installed an aftermarket device (the Drainztube) that could have caused the oil leak. From what we have been told, I think that when he changed the oil he was interrupted and simply forgot to add new oil. 

A new engine is a big bullet to bite, but who is to blame here? Honda would want proof that the oil was changed by a competent mechanic. How can a homeowner say, with a straight face, I put oil in the engine when I changed it, there were no signs of oil leakage in my garage, the engine did not burn oil - it did not show white smoke, and expect them to fork over a new engine? I have heard and read of quick oil change places that failed to tighten the filter or drain plug (an acquaintance had this happen - no drain plug), the engine dumped the oil and seized. In these cases the company's insurance invariably picked up the tab. I would think the OP would have more luck with his homeowner's insurance.


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## PhilThefarmer (Dec 21, 2020)

WrenchIt said:


> I hate to say this, but I'll be the bad guy for a minute. Absent a crack in the bottom of the crankcase (where the oil escaped) and obvious signs that the casting is/was defective, the OP has no chance of getting satisfaction from Honda. He admitted the storage situation was iffy - the snowblower was stored on a pile of old cardboard where an oil leak would not be obvious.


Wouldn't it actually be obvious on a cardboard if oil had leaked?


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## Oneacer (Jan 3, 2011)

I'm in the camp that OP did not check oil before starting.

Oil does not just evaporate into thin air.


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## RoadWarrior (Apr 17, 2021)

CarlB said:


> Even if you get the engine to turn over and start i personally wouldn't trust it.
> I would bite the bullet today and take the engine off put it on the bench and disassemble it and see what's going on inside.
> The rod is almost 100% guaranteed to be toast and if there is alum on the crank it can safely be removed in many cases without damaging the crank.
> Replacing a rod is cheap and I'd want to know what was going on inside the engine before i depended on it for snow removal this winter.
> ...


More HP and more TQ sounds like a good idea to upgrade my snowblower however does the crankshaft snout align with the factory pulley height and setup from what the Honda HSS1332ATD specs call for? 

It has been 12 hours after I flooded the cylinder bore with Liquid Wrench. I still cannot turn the crankshaft and the Auger Torque Sensor throws a red light at me comically. I'm draining any fluids now and proceeding to try the ATF Acetone experiment and throw 1.5 quarts of that in the crankcase hole and let it sit longer.


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## Ziggy65 (Jan 18, 2020)

Leaking a liter of oil would be obvious if sitting on concrete, asphalt, card board or even dirt IMHO. If there was no oil stain under or around the machine where it was stored, it did not leak out while sitting in storage. The oil was either burned off, or leaked out during operation or it was not refilled.

I think you will need to let the penetrant etc soak for weeks to see if it will do anything, doubtful it will. I would remove the engine and open it up and see how bad the damage is.
With the shortage of parts right now, I think you will need to get lucky to find a new Honda snow blower engine by winter. I would probably start looking for a used machine now for the upcoming winter and that will give you time to source the parts or a new engine. With an expensive machine like that, I would want the correct Honda engine on it.
You could also sell it as it sits and buy a new or used Honda (if you can find one), although it will be a huge hit to your wallet.

Good luck


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## vmax29 (Oct 19, 2017)

Rebuild kits are available (link). They seem reasonable. Or, as stated previously a HF Predator clone. New GX390s are out there for 6 to 8 hundred.


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## orangputeh (Nov 24, 2016)

RoadWarrior said:


> More HP and more TQ sounds like a good idea to upgrade my snowblower however does the crankshaft snout align with the factory pulley height and setup from what the Honda HSS1332ATD specs call for?
> 
> It has been 12 hours after I flooded the cylinder bore with Liquid Wrench. I still cannot turn the crankshaft and the Auger Torque Sensor throws a red light at me comically. I'm draining any fluids now and proceeding to try the ATF Acetone experiment and throw 1.5 quarts of that in the crankcase hole and let it sit longer.


I would overfill the crankcase with whatever you decide as to soak the the rod and crank if that rod is seized on crank journal.

it just seems like there is permanent damage here anyways but it's always nice to try. 

all this time you could have opened up engine by now and found out what's going on.......


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## WrenchIt (Dec 6, 2020)

RoadWarrior said:


> More HP and more TQ sounds like a good idea to upgrade my snowblower however does the crankshaft snout align with the factory pulley height and setup from what the Honda HSS1332ATD specs call for?


You can get that info from HF, I think, though you might have to call and ask if its not on their website under specs for that particular engine. Measuring your Honda will yield the same info. I'd be inclined to pull the engine and take the measurements while it is on the bench. Don't forget to check mounting hole positions.

Aside from the obvious cost difference, what is parts availability and reliability like for the HF engine? If, as @vmax29 said, Honda engines are available for 6 to 800, the savings over a HF shrinks. Consider resale value of your snowblower with a HF engine.


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## RoadWarrior (Apr 17, 2021)

orangputeh said:


> I would overfill the crankcase with whatever you decide as to soak the the rod and crank if that rod is seized on crank journal.
> 
> it just seems like there is permanent damage here anyways but it's always nice to try.
> 
> all this time you could have opened up engine by now and found out what's going on.......


I'm currently winterizing the entire driveline of my '15 GMC Sierra. New battery, spark plugs, wires. Front and rear differentials, transfer case and transmission. You can definitely expect my Honda engine removal / teardown when I get notice from my local Honda Power Equipment dealer customer callback to see if an exact engine is readily available from their warehouses somewhere in the USA to ship to me which is probably the route I'm taking warrantywise. Here you can see I'm mechanically inclined to tackle the job. Been wrenching on Chevys since I was kid. Spraying down the black oxidation before it's refilled with Amsoil 75W90.


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## Oneacer (Jan 3, 2011)

@Road,

I am sure you have enough where with all to handle the engine swap ....


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## Oneacer (Jan 3, 2011)

I used to wrench on auto repairs, pulled engines, etc ... stick to some stuff I can get at now, but I no longer have access to a lift, so that stuff goes into my local repair shop.

Now that I am retired, I found a nice hobby on restoring snowblowers and other small equipment...


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## CarlB (Jan 2, 2011)

RoadWarrior said:


> More HP and more TQ sounds like a good idea to upgrade my snowblower however does the crankshaft snout align with the factory pulley height and setup from what the Honda HSS1332ATD specs call for?
> 
> It has been 12 hours after I flooded the cylinder bore with Liquid Wrench. I still cannot turn the crankshaft and the Auger Torque Sensor throws a red light at me comically. I'm draining any fluids now and proceeding to try the ATF Acetone experiment and throw 1.5 quarts of that in the crankcase hole and let it sit longer.



Did you remove the belts?


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## RoadWarrior (Apr 17, 2021)

CarlB said:


> Did you remove the belts?


Not yet sir. They are on my list for PM replacement. At 41.5 hrs on the clock they're looking ok for now.


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## CarlB (Jan 2, 2011)

RoadWarrior said:


> Not yet sir. They are on my list for PM replacement. At 41.5 hrs on the clock they're looking ok for now.


i would remove the belts to rule out any other contributing factors


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## CarlB (Jan 2, 2011)

RoadWarrior said:


> More HP and more TQ sounds like a good idea to upgrade my snowblower however does the crankshaft snout align with the factory pulley height and setup from what the Honda HSS1332ATD specs call for?
> 
> It has been 12 hours after I flooded the cylinder bore with Liquid Wrench. I still cannot turn the crankshaft and the Auger Torque Sensor throws a red light at me comically. I'm draining any fluids now and proceeding to try the ATF Acetone experiment and throw 1.5 quarts of that in the crankcase hole and let it sit longer.


I suspect they would since it is a honda clone but I cant say for sure.

They list all of the dems on their page and you can compare it to the honda gx390

The first thing i would do it get it on the bench and take the front cover and head off.


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## orangputeh (Nov 24, 2016)

ya. a harbor freight honda clone will work for fraction of cost. use the search box on the honda sun forum. lots of discussions there on this.


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## 94EG8 (Feb 13, 2014)

Pull the engine and take it apart. If you're lucky you can clean up the crank, hone cylinder and put in a rod, piston, and rings. I'm guessing the bore is scored badly though. If so buy a Chinese Honda clone and swap over all the external parts from your current engine.


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## Shovel (Mar 26, 2019)

Chances are the piston is just stuck...you usually bust a rod and hear alot of noise from an oil starvation issue that involves busting the rod.
Tip the machine to where the the cylinder is vertical..put some Penetrate down the spark plug hole.Let sit overnight. 
Put the machine with the wheels on the ground.....Take a heat gun ..portable heater..what have you and heat the cylinder..Use the wrench on the crank pulley to try to loosen the crank bolt this won't you don't have to worry about twisting it off.
If no luck...remove the head...tap with a piece of wood and hammer...If no luck you will have destroy the piston. 
This is all assuming the piston is stuck...which is usually what happens when the engine locks up from lack of oil.
You can still have other damage that can crop up in a couple hours of running time later.



Sent from my SM-A115U1 using Tapatalk


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## chipg1956 (Mar 28, 2021)

Shovel said:


> Chances are the piston is just stuck...you usually bust a rod and hear alot of noise from an oil starvation issue that involves busting the rod.
> Tip the machine to where the the cylinder is vertical..put some Penetrate down the spark plug hole.Let sit overnight.
> Put the machine with the wheels on the ground.....Take a heat gun ..portable heater..what have you and heat the cylinder..Use the wrench on the crank pulley to try to loosen the crank bolt this won't you don't have to worry about twisting it off.
> If no luck...remove the head...tap with a piece of wood and hammer...If no luck you will have destroy the piston.
> ...


Respectfully disagree. Lack of oil almost always finds first trouble at the big end of the rod / crankpin. Often the rod will break and the piston will fall down into the bore jamming the crank by the rod coming between the crank pin and the block. I did not read all of the responses. Did anyone suggest trying to turn the crank backwards? If what I suggested has happened it will turn easy and then jam again. The use of coke or penetrating oil is worth a try if the reason the motor has seized was it was left out in the weather for a few years and the rings rusted to the bore. If you were turning reasonable RPMs at the time of failure you may be able to get by with a rod and crank. While it is apart look over the governor gear, many are plastic and can melt under the extra heat created by the lack of lube.


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## RoadWarrior (Apr 17, 2021)

Acknowledged. Piston bore is free of a bath of a cocktail of heavy duty penetrants and the crankcase is filled with ATF/Acetone for about 2 days now. Being a trucker I'm days away from returning to this weekend project for it's teardown and carnage report.


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## Shovel (Mar 26, 2019)

chipg1956 said:


> Respectfully disagree. Lack of oil almost always finds first trouble at the big end of the rod / crankpin. Often the rod will break and the piston will fall down into the bore jamming the crank by the rod coming between the crank pin and the block. I did not read all of the responses. Did anyone suggest trying to turn the crank backwards? If what I suggested has happened it will turn easy and then jam again. The use of coke or penetrating oil is worth a try if the reason the motor has seized was it was left out in the weather for a few years and the rings rusted to the bore. If you were turning reasonable RPMs at the time of failure you may be able to get by with a rod and crank. While it is apart look over the governor gear, many are plastic and can melt under the extra heat created by the lack of lube.


Usually when the rod busts on these you can free wheel the engine at least partially anyway...Usually they leave a hole in the side of the engine with the rod in several pieces...I usually find the piston at the top when the rod breaks not the bottom....they usually bust right below the wrist pin and make alot of noise while the engine coasts down and beats the flopping rod into several pieces.
Since his engine is actually locked up I pointed him to a seized piston.

Sent from my SM-A115U1 using Tapatalk


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## Dusty (Dec 13, 2018)

My money is on it being siezed, not a thrown rod. However being seized it can be both the upper and/or lower end, the piston rings siezed to the bore and the connecting rod, most common or siezed to the crank. Both, or 1 or the other. We won't know until he opens it, or if he finally breaks it free. It's a waiting game now. He may get lucky and just need a crank, rod, oversized piston and rings and the bore machined, or he may just need a new set of rings and the bore honed, or maybe he'll get really lucky and break it free and runs fine. Just gonna have to wait and see. That's a lot cheaper than a short block or new engine. If it was me and this happened and It was a honda I just paid $3500 a couple years back, I would replace it with another honda engine, not another brand. Theirs many machines I would drop a Predator on, but not a nearly new top of the line honda. That machine would get another honda engine, if it was me. Interested to find out the outcome if this situation.


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## WrenchIt (Dec 6, 2020)

Dusty said:


> Interested to find out the outcome if this situation.


Clearly, we all are.


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## orangputeh (Nov 24, 2016)

WrenchIt said:


> Clearly, we all are.


Prediction.........."PAIN" in Mr T voice....


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## chipg1956 (Mar 28, 2021)

I know many of you will disagree but in mild applications such as a snowblower buying a Honda engine is just a waste of money. Is it marginally better then a Honda clone, yes. But is it worth 2, 3 or 4 times the price, no, absolutly not. I have not researched it but would it surprise anybody if lots of Honda engines or many of it's parts are made in China?


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## tabora (Mar 1, 2017)

chipg1956 said:


> I have not researched it but would it surprise anybody if lots of Honda engines or many of it's parts are made in China?


All GX engines for the U.S. market are made in the excellent Honda engine plant in Thailand, and have been for many years. The HSS 2-stage and single stage HS720 machines are all built in Swepsonville, NC. In fact, the HS720 is the ONLY snowblower built entirely in the USA, since its GC190 engine is also completely built in Swepsonville.

It would be best if you DID do some research, starting here: Honda Snow Blower Information Repository


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## orangputeh (Nov 24, 2016)

tabora said:


> All GX engines for the U.S. market are made in the excellent Honda engine plant in Thailand, and have been for many years. The HSS 2-stage and single stage HS720 machines are all built in Swepsonville, NC. In fact, the HS720 is the ONLY snowblower built entirely in the USA, since its GC190 engine is also completely built in Swepsonville.
> 
> It would be best if you DID do some research, starting here: Honda Snow Blower Information Repository


There should be a winner face.


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## orangputeh (Nov 24, 2016)

chipg1956 said:


> I know many of you will disagree but in mild applications such as a snowblower buying a Honda is just a waste of money. Is it marginally better then a Honda clone, yes. But is it worth 2, 3 or 4 times the price, no, absolutly not. I have not researched it but would it surprise anybody if lots of Honda engines or many of it's parts are made in China?


We Honda people hear this ALL THE TIME. ........you are probably right about using a cheaper blower for "mild" applications but please do your homework as you should.

There is a LOT of cheap JUNK out there that uses plastic parts in their trannies. Those $599 and $799 specials you see all lined up at the big box stores. OOOHHHH , they look so SHINY and nice. 
Lucky if they work for 3 storms before breaking.

I suggest watching donyboy73 on you tube. He has excellent videos on what to look for in a good used snowblower and the ones to stay away from.

I cant change the mind of people like you. NOT trying to but I laugh every time I hear about how buying a Honda is a waste of money .

I don't think my neighbor thinks so. He bought a Honda HS828 about 25 years ago brand new for $1899 and recently sold it for $1800. Very common around the Lake Tahoe area. I sell many Honda's that are 20-30-40 years old for more than the original cost . ( yes I know the difference in the USD value in these periods ) But what other brand snowblower can you do this?

good luck grasshopper


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## WrenchIt (Dec 6, 2020)

chipg1956 said:


> I know many of you will disagree but in mild applications such as a snowblower buying a Honda is just a waste of money. Is it marginally better then a Honda clone, yes. But is it worth 2, 3 or 4 times the price, no, absolutly not. I have not researched it but would it surprise anybody if lots of Honda engines or many of it's parts are made in China?


It's sort of like the difference between buying Snap-On tools or Harbor Freight, or Starrett or Mitutoyo instead of Husky. Not everybody cares. YMMV


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## Yanmar Ronin (Jan 31, 2015)

Another big difference is that Honda and other major manufacturers are paying for the tech, research and development of the engines and machines... a sizable investment.

Keep supporting the copies, clones and knockoffs and pretty soon they won't have anything left to copy... then what?


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## aa335 (Jan 21, 2020)

Yanmar Ronin said:


> Another big difference is that Honda and other major manufacturers are paying for the tech, research and development of the engines and machines... a sizable investment.
> 
> Keep supporting the copies, clones and knockoffs and pretty soon they won't have anything left to copy... then what?


Huyndai used to make copies of Honda Accords that are successful. Now they are innovating and making very competitive cars to Japanese manfacturers like Honda and Toyota, and even surpasing Nissan and Mitsubishi. Genesis luxury brand of Huyndai is taking on Japanese luxury brands such as Acura, Infinity and Lexus.

Some companies will gain traction and become a competitive force. Others may continue to produce clones or copies at greatly reduce cost to the originals. You know how Americans have an insatiable appetite for cheap products. Does Costco, Amazon, or Harbor Freight ring a bell?

Chinese junk will soon be an oxymoron. There are 5 highly motivated and educated Chinese to 1 North American. They are not just copying, they are innovating. Be forewarned, don't underestimate or belittle people who have less than you. Survival is their greatest strength. Arrogance is the greatest weakness.

There are innovative companies from China and Korea. There are people who will pay big bucks for cache brands, but there are more people who will buy upcoming brands at a fraction of the cost for near quality.


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## Yanmar Ronin (Jan 31, 2015)

No disagreement... I'm all for companies who do their own homework.


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## chipg1956 (Mar 28, 2021)

For those of you who chose to disagree with my prior post. I was referring to only the engine, I edited the post slightly to make that more obvious. Neither did I write that the Honda was not a good machine. I was simply stating that the cost / benefit on the engine was not there and it isn't. I also don't really support clones, my preferred engine is Briggs and Stratton in pretty much every application.


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## chipg1956 (Mar 28, 2021)

orangputeh said:


> We Honda people hear this ALL THE TIME. ........you are probably right about using a cheaper blower for "mild" applications but please do your homework as you should.
> 
> There is a LOT of cheap JUNK out there that uses plastic parts in their trannies. Those $599 and $799 specials you see all lined up at the big box stores. OOOHHHH , they look so SHINY and nice.
> Lucky if they work for 3 storms before breaking.
> ...


My Simplicity was made in 1970, out performs everything and stone cold dependable and is easier to work on. Is "grasshopper" supposed to be some sort of adolescent insult?


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## Oneacer (Jan 3, 2011)

"grasshopper" is a reference to the good old days of TV series Kung Fu ... you would have to be in our older age group to understand it.

And also, I am a huge fan of the older, well built machines of years past.


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## nitehawk55 (Sep 9, 2021)

I can't compare a 1970 Briggs to a modern one , BIG difference.


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## tabora (Mar 1, 2017)

chipg1956 said:


> I have not researched it but would it surprise anybody if lots of Honda engines or many of it's parts are made in China?





chipg1956 said:


> For those of you who chose to disagree with my prior post. I was referring to only the engine, I edited the post slightly to make that more obvious. Neither did I write that the Honda was not a good machine. I was simply stating that the cost / benefit on the engine was not there and it isn't.


Actually, what you said was dead wrong about US Honda snowblower engines being made in China. For other markets (like China), yes, but not for the US or any markets like Canada and Europe who get their snowblowers from the US.


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## chipg1956 (Mar 28, 2021)

Oneacer said:


> "grasshopper" is a reference to the good old days of TV series Kung Fu ... you would have to be in our older age group to understand it.
> 
> And also, I am a huge fan of the older, well built machines of years past.


I am 65, retired and remember Kung-fu rather well.Wonder why it never came to re-runs.


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## nitehawk55 (Sep 9, 2021)

chipg1956 said:


> I am 65, retired and remember Kung-fu rather well.


I have a year on you , used to watch it all the time . Lots of clips on YouTube.


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## orangputeh (Nov 24, 2016)

tabora said:


> Actually, what you said was dead wrong about US Honda snowblower engines being made in China. For other markets (like China), yes, but not for the US or any markets like Canada and Europe who get their snowblowers from the US.


Your Honda Repository Thread is worth it's weight in gold.


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## orangputeh (Nov 24, 2016)

aa335 said:


> Huyndai used to make copies of Honda Accords that are successful. Now they are innovating and making very competitive cars to Japanese manfacturers like Honda and Toyota, and even surpasing Nissan and Mitsubishi. Genesis luxury brand of Huyndai is taking on Japanese luxury brands such as Acura, Infinity and Lexus.
> 
> Some companies will gain traction and become a competitive force. Others may continue to produce clones or copies at greatly reduce cost to the originals. You know how Americans have an insatiable appetite for cheap products. Does Costco, Amazon, or Harbor Freight ring a bell?
> 
> ...


BIG PLUS ONE on this........many of us are old enough to remember when Made In Japan was a joke........who's the joke on now???? Most Asian countries just do not copy....they improve on.

I went to a science high school in Malaysia back in the early 70's. for my sophomore and junior years. When I got home , took some aptitude tests I was told I could SKIP my senior year in high school and my first year of college. In just 2 years I SKIPPED 2 YEARS on American schools.

Many of my former classmates from then are world class doctors and scientists. My classmates were about 50% Malay, 35 % Chinese , and about the rest Indian. When I need a doctor I search out Indian or Chinese doctors. 

I'm not surprised at all how far and fast Malaysia has progressed in the last 40 plus years. China is already a superpower and will leave the USA in the dust......We will go broke trying to sustain our military ( sorry mods ).


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## Yanmar Ronin (Jan 31, 2015)

orangputeh said:


> I'm not surprised at all how far and fast Malaysia has progressed in the last 40 plus years. China is already a superpower and will leave the USA in the dust......We will go broke trying to sustain our military ( sorry mods ).


No apology required... and without making it any more political, basically I agree.

I could of course say a lot more... I too have lived all around the world and have seen 'the wiring under the board' as it were. However... we're already way off the target on this thread and it doesn't need to get worse.

Seized engine... right? 🍻


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## chipg1956 (Mar 28, 2021)

Any update on the blown motor?


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## harry398 (Jun 22, 2021)

Yanmar Ronin said:


> Another big difference is that Honda and other major manufacturers are paying for the tech, research and development of the engines and machines... a sizable investment.
> 
> Keep supporting the copies, clones and knockoffs and pretty soon they won't have anything left to copy... then what?


*then what?* observe the chinese military build up. you tube is your friend. then what?


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## Yanmar Ronin (Jan 31, 2015)

harry398 said:


> *then what?* observe the chinese military build up. you tube is your friend. then what?


Harry... wat? 🤣

We're talking about snowblowers/related OPE... let's keep it to that please.


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## orangputeh (Nov 24, 2016)

This is why I get so frustrated with any group/website.
People pose problems and then never update after everyone tries to help.

Or the thread goes off the rails....not too common at SBF. You guys are good at keeping us maroons in line. 

but updates , OP's < would be soooooooo nice.......Thank You's would be even nicer.


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## groomerz (Feb 7, 2015)

orangputeh said:


> This is why I get so frustrated with any group/website.
> People pose problems and then never update after everyone tries to help.
> 
> Or the thread goes off the rails....not too common at SBF. You guys are good at keeping us maroons in line.
> ...


“Special People”


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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