# Toro 3650 & JD TRS 21 Questions



## 19accord98 (Nov 11, 2014)

Hi all! I am new to small engines and snow blowers but am very familiar with forums and Hondas! I was hoping all you great people could assist me!

I bought a John Deere TRS 21 (1993) snow blower from a guy for $90 and then replaced the belt, plug, and fuel filter which I got from John Deere for another $26. The thing runs great, has electric start but there are 2 issues. The blades spin most of the time (I have adjusted the cable to no avail) and in order for the chute to turn left while cranking you either have to push down on the body of the blower or lift the snow blower up by pressing down on the handle.


I also bought a 6.5 hp Toro 3650 (2001) from another guy for $25 who said it ran great but needed a new fuel tank because it was leaking and the primer lever has to be taped down otherwise it will vibrate to full choke. I do believe the guy. I got home and couldn't get it to start. I then went to Toro and got a new priming bulb, gas tank, and an E3 plug for a total of like $70. I replaced everything, gapped the plug, and it started up. Tonight I had a hard time starting it and when it did, it eventually died on me. So for quite awhile I tried to get the think to start and it did a couple times but then died. After awhile of pulling the pull string won't retract. grrrrr.

The fuel was fresh in both and I used a "Premium 2 stroke oil" from Lowes that works on pretty much any ratio.

So now, I think I am going to sell both and buy a brand new one. However, as you can tell, I don't want to spend anymore money on these snowblowers at all since new ones are quite expensive.

What do you think I could get for each snowblower? Is it easy to fix the cable on the Toro?

Thanks!  I'll check back in later tonight!


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## micah68kj (Oct 8, 2011)

Welcome to the forum. 
I'm guessing you may get $100.00 for the pair.
Did you check for spark out of the 3650? 
I know nothing about the Deere trs 21.


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## detdrbuzzard (Jan 20, 2012)

welcome to *SBF!! *did you replace the fuel filter on the toro


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## Shryp (Jan 1, 2011)

For the Deere I would say the belt is too short, the adjustment is too tight or the pulleys are dirty and rusted. For the chute issue it sounds as if there is an alignment issue and turning one way works fine, but turning the other way separates the parts. Are the handles and everything tight? Those should be two easy problems to fix.

For the Toro I am guessing the spring broke on the recoil. Did you hear a noise when it stopped retracting? It could also be that you got too excited and were pulling it so fast that it got loose and tangled up on itself.

Of the two machines I would say the Toro is the better one from what I have read. Those Deere TRS and TRX models are just Murray blowers.

Also, I have heard bad things on the E3 plugs. Something about sometimes the electrodes can break off in the cylinders.


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## 19accord98 (Nov 11, 2014)

micah68kj said:


> Welcome to the forum.
> I'm guessing you may get $100.00 for the pair.
> Did you check for spark out of the 3650?
> I know nothing about the Deere trs 21.


Thanks! I am hoping to get $250 minimum for the pair but I guess we will see.



detdrbuzzard said:


> welcome to *SBF!! *did you replace the fuel filter on the toro


Oops, yes I replaced the filter on the Toro as well.



Shryp said:


> For the Deere I would say the belt is too short, the adjustment is too tight or the pulleys are dirty and rusted. For the chute issue it sounds as if there is an alignment issue and turning one way works fine, but turning the other way separates the parts. Are the handles and everything tight? Those should be two easy problems to fix.
> 
> For the Toro I am guessing the spring broke on the recoil. Did you hear a noise when it stopped retracting? It could also be that you got too excited and were pulling it so fast that it got loose and tangled up on itself.
> 
> ...


The chute has a bunch of notches in it that rides on a worm gear. For some reason, when turning it left it rides up and off of the worm gear. But if you put a little weight on top of it it works just fine. Kind of a bad design in my opinion.

I know the belt is correct as I verified it at the JD dealer and online but I think you are right that the pulley is rusted. After I replaced the belt the blades were not spinning but as soon as I engaged the belts and then let go of the handle they kept on spinning which would make sense.

I didn't hear anything on the Toro bc the JD blower was running. I was getting a little annoyed and believe I probably pulled it a bit too fast. I might take it apart tonight or tomorrow (  ) Is it pretty easy to get to the string?

As far as the plug goes, it would not start up until I put the new plug in. I sure as heck hope the electrode doesn't break off!



After I take a look at this Toro ill go ahead and see what I can get for it. If it is a decent amount, i'll sell the JD too and buy a new entry level single stage.


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## Shryp (Jan 1, 2011)

The strings on single stages can be a pain to get to because of all the covers. Also, if you restring it make sure it is routed correctly and through all the covers before it is tied.


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## micah68kj (Oct 8, 2011)

19accord98 said:


> Thanks! I am hoping to get $250 minimum for the pair but I guess we will see.


I honestly and truely hope that you do. With the winter we had last year anything is possible.
I know arojnd my area hey are off the scale pricewise.I didn't have any problems selling any of mine and getting very close to my full asking price.


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## 19accord98 (Nov 11, 2014)

So a guy offered me $125 for the Toro and I said yes. He is going to pick it up on Monday.

I guess my question is, should I go through the hassle of fixing it for $25 and then having to clean the carb, or should I sell both and buy brand new?

On Black Friday I can get a 179cc Craftsman single stage for $380, plus it is a 4 stroke. Not sure of how good these 4 stroke units are. Power wise, how would that compare to the 6.5hp Toro I have now?

I just read through some reviews and they are pretty bad for the Craftsman. I may just go ahead can cancel on the guy for the Toro. I've never cleaned a carb before but have seen a couple videos on Youtube.


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## micah68kj (Oct 8, 2011)

Repair the Toro and keep it. Watch the vids again, take *LOTS* of pictures so you'll have a reference to re assemble it..


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## 19accord98 (Nov 11, 2014)

Yeah, it looks like thats what ill go ahead and do.

I can get the part locally for $40 and I guess I will dive into it tonight. Im not really looking forward to it as the thing is a pain to take apart.

I'll get the camera out for the carb teardown and rebuild. I'm surprised that these things are made of plastic - seems like a poor design.

I'll keep you guys updated!


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## Freezn (Mar 1, 2014)

Another vote for fixing up the Toro 3650 and keeping it! The Toro 3650 has the old school 2 cycle engine which gives you a little better torque vs. the current 4 cycle single stage engines. I can tell you in my area those Toro 3650's go fast on Craigslist for good money. Very few 2 cycle Toro's have both the R-Tek engine AND Crank Chute. I had one about six years ago and sold it to my brother. I've tried to buy it back three different times from him, but he knows what he has... Keep that machine, you won't regret it.....and that advice is coming from an avid Honda guy.


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## micah68kj (Oct 8, 2011)

19accord98 said:


> Yeah, it looks like thats what ill go ahead and do.
> 
> I can get the part locally for $40 and I guess I will dive into it tonight. Im not really looking forward to it as the thing is a pain to take apart.
> I'm surprised that these things are made of plastic - seems like a poor design.
> ...


The plastic carb is the reason I sold my 3650. Toro makes some fantastic machines but using an engine with a plastic carb was not a good idea.


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## 19accord98 (Nov 11, 2014)

Freezn said:


> Another vote for fixing up the Toro 3650 and keeping it! The Toro 3650 has the old school 2 cycle engine which gives you a little better torque vs. the current 4 cycle single stage engines. I can tell you in my area those Toro 3650's go fast on Craigslist for good money. Very few 2 cycle Toro's have both the R-Tek engine AND Crank Chute. I had one about six years ago and sold it to my brother. I've tried to buy it back three different times from him, but he knows what he has... Keep that machine, you won't regret it.....and that advice is coming from an avid Honda guy.


I'm very very glad to hear you praising the machine! I too like the idea that it has a crank chute instead of having to stop and rotate it by hand. I am assuming that the R Tek motors are of good quality?

I have a Honda Accord (so I am big into Hondas) that i've had for almost 10 years that I have been consistently modifying. I am in the process of converting it to a manual from an auto. It has been somewhat of a nightmare...and I am 99% done but I cant get any power to the wheels. I am hoping the tranny I got isn't bad. 



micah68kj said:


> The plastic carb is the reason I sold my 3650. Toro makes some fantastic machines but using an engine with a plastic carb was not a good idea.


I agree - having a cheap plastic carb makes no sense. However, I have seen on Amazon and eBay that have all metal replacement carbs for about $100 but that seems a little steep. Hopefully I have good luck cleaning it out tonight and won't have to purchase one of them.

After I get the new starter tonight I will have a total of $135 total invested in the machine parts wise.


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## detdrbuzzard (Jan 20, 2012)

I've bought my 2450E new in 2000 and what a work horse it has been and trouble free. I picked up a 3650E and keep it at my mom's but I'm not use to that ergo handle and would rather use the 2450E. I wouldn't think twice about replacing the carb on either or both, it would be money well spent


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## jtclays (Sep 24, 2010)

If you have some really flat steel or a table saw that is known flat and true, pop the carb and place the inlet side on the flat surface. See if it wobbles any at all. That is the curse with those plastic carbs, they warp and you wasted your money on a rebuild kit. The machine is worth the metal carb upgrade IMO. Personal experience........take what you can get for the JD and never look back. It's a green Murray. Take a look at the auger rubber. If it has rivets holding it to the metal they are original. You have to drill out everyone of those rivets and replace with bolts and nuts to replace the rubber. Not fun, and not worth the effort. The chute rotation linkage looks like a 5th grade science class designed it on a Friday at 2:45pm. Just my thoughts from having one for about 2 weeks.


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## Kiss4aFrog (Nov 3, 2013)

Welcome to the forum 19accord98 

Plastic carbs IMHO are truly throw away parts. If you have the time you can always learn on one and if it's still messed up you have a great excuse to buy the metal replacement.
A clean carb can make all the difference in a machine with poor performance and a strong smooth running machine that's fun to operate (as fun as it can be below zero).


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## UNDERTAKER (Dec 30, 2013)

ALOHA to the forms..


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## 19accord98 (Nov 11, 2014)

Thanks for all of the welcome guys!

I just got done replacing the starter and cleaning out the carb. The pull starter works fine but the stupid thing still will not start. 
When pumping the primer bulb I can hear air down at the carb and I cant remember if I could hear that before or not.

Im nervous to throw any more money at the thing..... I only took out a few screws and the gasket and assembled it back together just how it came apart and spaying a ton of carb cleaner is it. I'm not sure im liking the whole Toro brand.


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## Kiss4aFrog (Nov 3, 2013)

The primer bulb blows air through a tube to a fitting on the carb and that blast of air shoots some gas into the carb. If you can hear the air it might be the line came loose from the carb or the primer bulb. Easier to use a mirror to check at the carb or pull the cover to see. To check the back of the primer bulb you'll need to pull the recoil cover and housing. <-- sorry was thinking of different machine.

Toro is a very good brand but not everything about any one brand is excellent.


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## jtclays (Sep 24, 2010)

accord, Did you take take the carb off? By screws, do you mean the jets. If I remember correctly everything on the inside that can come out is brass with a flat blade cutout to remove. The seat is brass, where the needle comes out (rubber tipped?). Clear the hole in that seat. There will be a very small "main" jet that is in the middle of the body and screws out. Take a piece of wire and fish that one hole clear. Up inside the middle the emulsion tube was brass also and screws right out with one little o ring on it. wire that up the center and note little, tiny holes crosscut into the shaft. If you spray cleaner up the nozzle and block the top with your finger, you should see spray coming out the tiny holes if clear. Also if you look around the body of the carb for a sticker that has numbers on it. (not sure of your year if it will have that, but almost certain it will) Peel it back and see if there is one little brass screw hiding under it. It's the idle jet. Remove it and note any tiny holes to wire them clear and spray. Yours sounds to me like it had gas left in it and is just plugged up. Even though it's plastic, it's a very easy carb to work on. I think there are holes near the choke flapper that you can stick your carb cleaner nozzle in and spray, you should see spray come out of the tiny holes near the throttle side flapper to note they are clear. Those tiny holes in the plastic housing will be on the right side as you look into the throttle side body of the carb. Very hard to see on a shiny black housing, but they are there


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## detdrbuzzard (Jan 20, 2012)

on a 3650 ( ccr 1000, 2000, 2450, 3000, and powerlite ) the primer bulb is on the dash with the tube going to the carb. there is no need to take the recoil cover off just the back cover on the machine so you can trace the line from the bulb to the carb. the dash will have to be un bolted to replace a bad primer bulb


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## 19accord98 (Nov 11, 2014)

jtclays said:


> accord, Did you take take the carb off? By screws, do you mean the jets. If I remember correctly everything on the inside that can come out is brass with a flat blade cutout to remove. The seat is brass, where the needle comes out (rubber tipped?). Clear the hole in that seat. There will be a very small "main" jet that is in the middle of the body and screws out. Take a piece of wire and fish that one hole clear. Up inside the middle the emulsion tube was brass also and screws right out with one little o ring on it. wire that up the center and note little, tiny holes crosscut into the shaft. If you spray cleaner up the nozzle and block the top with your finger, you should see spray coming out the tiny holes if clear. Also if you look around the body of the carb for a sticker that has numbers on it. (not sure of your year if it will have that, but almost certain it will) Peel it back and see if there is one little brass screw hiding under it. It's the idle jet. Remove it and note any tiny holes to wire them clear and spray. Yours sounds to me like it had gas left in it and is just plugged up. Even though it's plastic, it's a very easy carb to work on. I think there are holes near the choke flapper that you can stick your carb cleaner nozzle in and spray, you should see spray come out of the tiny holes near the throttle side flapper to note they are clear. Those tiny holes in the plastic housing will be on the right side as you look into the throttle side body of the carb. Very hard to see on a shiny black housing, but they are there


Thanks! I actually took the carb off a couple days ago and cleaned it. Today, I took it off again and disassembled everything. I let all the screw/jets soak in carb cleaner in a jar. I did the same thing for the carb itself except I took out the gasket and float. Got it all back together and it still wont start.



detdrbuzzard said:


> on a 3650 ( ccr 1000, 2000, 2450, 3000, and powerlite ) the primer bulb is on the dash with the tube going to the carb. there is no need to take the recoil cover off just the back cover on the machine so you can trace the line from the bulb to the carb. the dash will have to be un bolted to replace a bad primer bulb


Yeah, thats one of the first things I replaced.




Im $130 into this machine and I am selling it for $125. Unless I can get it running tomorrow its going to be gone. When I tried starting it I see specs of oil and gas on the floor next to the exhaust and very very tiny puffs of blue smoke.


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## jtclays (Sep 24, 2010)

Did you find the little hidden idle screw behind the sticker? If not that will stop you. If you did and the carb is really clean and you verified fuel flow and spark, we have problems inside. How well do you know the person you bought it from, as in did they run it with straight gas by accident? That'll kill 'em pretty quick. On ones I have redone for neighbors and friends I've taken the time to remove the bottom pan on the engine and cleaned out all the extra fuel and gunk that gets in there from flooding and trying to start with the key off. 
Only other thoughts I have are:
Pull the fuel line and verify it's flowing, they have a small screen in the tank that could be plugged. Just real quick, pinch it with your fingers and pull it, see fuel good, shove it back on.
Is the throttle spring still on it? It should have an ~1" lite spring hooked to the throttle butterfly and linked to a stationary bracket (to your left, governor will have a solid rod also hooked to the butterfly coming from the right). It keeps the throttle wide open all the time. If that's missing it won't run.
Verify you are getting spark one more time, then try straight shot of carb cleaner or starting fluid with the choke open (use the red tube nozzle and stick it straight back through the carb) close the choke and pull it over. If it fires, you still have fuel delivery issues. If not, you may not be making compression and someone sold you a great blower that was run on straight gas. I don't know what else to tell you, I've only had one Toro I played with that was dead and found out later they had run straight gas, then pumped it full of some kind of engine break free stuff to get it unstuck. Removal of the exhaust and a flashlight through the port showed heavy scoring on the piston.


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## jtclays (Sep 24, 2010)

One more shot, I do remember I had one that had loose head bolts. If someone was playing around with it, worth a check and see at this point.


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## 19accord98 (Nov 11, 2014)

jtclays said:


> Did you find the little hidden idle screw behind the sticker? If not that will stop you. If you did and the carb is really clean and you verified fuel flow and spark, we have problems inside. How well do you know the person you bought it from, as in did they run it with straight gas by accident? That'll kill 'em pretty quick. On ones I have redone for neighbors and friends I've taken the time to remove the bottom pan on the engine and cleaned out all the extra fuel and gunk that gets in there from flooding and trying to start with the key off.
> Only other thoughts I have are:
> Pull the fuel line and verify it's flowing, they have a small screen in the tank that could be plugged. Just real quick, pinch it with your fingers and pull it, see fuel good, shove it back on.
> Is the throttle spring still on it? It should have an ~1" lite spring hooked to the throttle butterfly and linked to a stationary bracket (to your left, governor will have a solid rod also hooked to the butterfly coming from the right). It keeps the throttle wide open all the time. If that's missing it won't run.
> Verify you are getting spark one more time, then try straight shot of carb cleaner or starting fluid with the choke open (use the red tube nozzle and stick it straight back through the carb) close the choke and pull it over. If it fires, you still have fuel delivery issues. If not, you may not be making compression and someone sold you a great blower that was run on straight gas. I don't know what else to tell you, I've only had one Toro I played with that was dead and found out later they had run straight gas, then pumped it full of some kind of engine break free stuff to get it unstuck. Removal of the exhaust and a flashlight through the port showed heavy scoring on the piston.


Yes, I cleaned the idle screw behind the sticker as well. When I soaked the carb in carb cleaner there were some black particles floating around in it so I am positive that it is clean.

The spring that hooks to the governor rod is attatched as well.

I just tried spraying carb cleaner in it and it still didn't start. Im going to say that the igition coil is probably bad then. I will double check in a bit to see if I get any sort of spark and if not I will probably get one off Amazon for $35 and cancel on the guy who wants to buy it.

I don't think it was ran without gas because when I replaced the fuel tank and filter there was still a bit of gas in it and it dark red hue which I am assuming was 2 cycle oil and Sta-Bil with the gas. Plus, when I had it running it sounded okay except for the idle surging.


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## Grunt (Nov 11, 2013)

CONFIRM you don't have spark before you order the new coil. Try removing the wire that goes from the coil to the ignition switch and try checking for spark with a spark checker or a KNOWN good spark plug. Ignition switches can short out in the off position and ground the ignition even when turned to on. My 8 hp Toro had a faulty switch last year that drove me crazy. The vibration from the engine would cause the contacts in the switch to close and kill the engine anytime it chose. I removed the key switch and put a simple toggle switch in it's place since I have no young children to worry about starting it.


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## 19accord98 (Nov 11, 2014)

^Thanks!

GREAT NEWS! I didn't have any extra plugs laying around and had already tossed the old one. So I went back to Lowes and did an exchange. Popped it in and it fired right up! I let it warm up and did a few more starts and it seemed okay. I guess I just had a faulty plug.

Thank You to everyone for the suggestions and whatnot - I appreciate it!


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## Grunt (Nov 11, 2013)

Congrats, that is great news. You saved $35 and learned a valuable lesson in the process - some times it's the simple things.


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## Kiss4aFrog (Nov 3, 2013)

It's one of those things that's easy to miss. If you test by leaving the plug in the wire and laying the plug on the head and looking for spark and don't have any you have to remember to try it again without the plug as the plug itself can be the problem.


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## jtclays (Sep 24, 2010)

If you have it running nice and get new paddles/scraper or they're already in good shape,I think you'll be very happy you kept at it. They are a dandy machine. I fell upon a Honda HS621 while I was looking for a 3650. The 3650's still sell around here for $3-350 and are usually advertised as people moving, not just wanting a bigger blower.
Wish you good luck with it
Check your PM's, I sent you a link.


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## 19accord98 (Nov 11, 2014)

Yeah i am pretty excited for the first snow fall to see how it does. Considering I've replaced quite a few parts and cleaned the carburetor it should be like new!

I'll be seeking the John Deere to my father in law for super cheap. 

Thanks again! 

Might i ask what oil you guys use? I have a bottle of "the best" from Lowea that works in most everything. It does all the ratios.


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## detdrbuzzard (Jan 20, 2012)

19accord98 said:


> ^Thanks!
> 
> GREAT NEWS! I didn't have any extra plugs laying around and had already tossed the old one. So I went back to Lowes and did an exchange. Popped it in and it fired right up! I let it warm up and did a few more starts and it seemed okay. I guess I just had a faulty plug.
> 
> Thank You to everyone for the suggestions and whatnot - I appreciate it!


lesson learned, stay away from those e3 plugs! i'm going to be ordering some ngk's for all my single stage snowblowers soon


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## db9938 (Nov 17, 2013)

I recently have had two items come to my workbench. One a lawn boy push mower, and a Husqvarna leaf blower, and both had those plugs in them. While the push mowers problems were bigger than the plug, the plug was still bad. Whereas the leaf blower, the plug there had been over tightened and stripped the cylinder. The insulator portion was also too long for the way that the plug wire was designed, and positioned the wire as to rub up against the case.


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