# Ariens Model 926068 EFI problem



## rlogan (Sep 19, 2020)

I bought this snow thrower last year. I'm getting it ready for action this year and I just can't get the thing to turn over. It's indicating a trouble code of 27. I've got fresh fuel in the tank, a new fuel filter and the pump voltage looks ok at the connector (7.1V). When I try to start the engine, I hear a clicking sound coming from the area of the fuel tank. Does anyone have experience troubleshooting this problem? Thanks.


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## Zavie (Sep 23, 2014)

Fill fuel tank completely. Check hoses for kinks. Check fuel filter for blockage even though it is new Lastly it could be a faulty fuel pump which I suggest a trip to the dealer under warranty


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## Zavie (Sep 23, 2014)

I remember last winter we did have a member with a faulty fuel pump


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## leonz (Dec 12, 2014)

Your description sounds exactly like a bad fuel pump on an automobile or truck. Its time to call your dealer and have them pick it up before the white mold comes along and the little moat monsters come looking for EODM food.


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## dman2 (Sep 22, 2019)

Snowblowers don't need to be complicated. You should have bought a none EFI engine snowblower. Well, that is not your question, so I'm sorry to say that. Good luck fixing it.


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

It seems that code 27 is Low Fuel Pressure. If this has a fuel shutoff valve, that's been opened, right? Can you hear/feel the fuel pump running? Is the little battery fully charged?


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## dman2 (Sep 22, 2019)

Bad pressure regulator, leaky fuel injector, weak fuel pump, plugged fuel filter, weak battery, bad electrical relay, bad wiring, ... It might even be the control module. I don't trust these small engines with EFI. You leave gasoline in there and it will destroy everything. They are cheaply built by infamous companies. It is unnecessary. Like what are you trying to achieve with EFI on snowblowers? More horsepower out of cc and lower emission?


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## crazzywolfie (Jun 2, 2014)

did you leave gas in it? if you store it with no fuel in it you most likely got a bad fuel pump. once you wash the oil off the parts in a fuel pump they usually have to stay wet or they lock up. i would maybe even recommend trying to run some 2 stroke gas through these machines before you put them away for the summer just to try and prevent this from happening.

also if it is under warranty likely best to just let the dealer deal with it. i doubt it is a cheap fix.


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## 140278 (Aug 27, 2020)

the factory shop manual for that machine becomes long for trouble shooting code 27 low fuel pressure, with many test points to check for voltage and shorts . from the tbi to the pump and ecu 
like the others have stated take it to the dealer .


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## rlogan (Sep 19, 2020)

dman2 said:


> Bad pressure regulator, leaky fuel injector, weak fuel pump, plugged fuel filter, weak battery, bad electrical relay, bad wiring, ... It might even be the control module. I don't trust these small engines with EFI. You leave gasoline in there and it will destroy everything. They are cheaply built by infamous companies. It is unnecessary. Like what are you trying to achieve with EFI on snowblowers? More horsepower out of cc and lower emission?


Thanks. The EFI is needlessly complicated and expensive to repair. Poor decision on my part. I'm also beyond disappointed that there appears to be a problem with the fuel pump after less than one year of use. The Ariens also fights you every step of the way and makes troubleshooting a pain. For example, I had to remove a cover around the fuel tank to get to the filter and pump. When I tried to put the cover back on, the bolts that secure it in place wouldn't thread because the tank had moved during their removal. It looks like they were forced on at the manufacturer. I had to loosen more bolts that hold the tank in place to realign the hole. I can only say this is poor quality control and poor design.


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## dman2 (Sep 22, 2019)

rlogan said:


> Thanks. The EFI is needlessly complicated and expensive to repair. Poor decision on my part. I'm also beyond disappointed that there appears to be a problem with the fuel pump after less than one year of use. The Ariens also fights you every step of the way and makes troubleshooting a pain. For example, I had to remove a cover around the fuel tank to get to the filter and pump. When I tried to put the cover back on, the bolts that secure it in place wouldn't thread because the tank had moved during their removal. It looks like they were forced on at the manufacturer. I had to loosen more bolts that hold the tank in place to realign the hole. I can only say this is poor quality control and poor design.


If you fix things a lot like me, you know how unreliable things are, so if you can make things simple, make them simple. 

The fuel pumps on cars are protected inside the gas tank. It also help cool down the pump. They say moisture inside the gas tank is bad for the fuel pump. Therefore, you need to fill it up and don't wait until it is near empty. Their fuel system is also designed to take ethanol gasoline. I don't think they considered all of those things and other things on snowblowers. Not to mention snowblowers are used and stored differently. EFI is new on residential snowblowers. If they stop making parts for them, you are doomed. Even on cars, many cars have crappy fuel pumps and fuel injectors. So, stay away from EFI on snowblowers. Ariens doesn't build them, they just put them on their snowblowers.

Yes, they use small bolts and thin metal on snowblowers. They strip very easy. Happens all the time.


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## 140278 (Aug 27, 2020)

at one year old that machine is still under warranty take it back to the dealer

also this is the 4th year of production Snow Blower Engine with EFI technology for Sno-Thro Products


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## rlogan (Sep 19, 2020)

Still have yet to get in contact with Ariens. I'd rate their customer service as poor. I did notice when I turn the ignition key I hear a clicking sound coming from the are of the fuel tank. No fuel is in the fuel filter I recently installed. Any suggestions?


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## Zavie (Sep 23, 2014)

rlogan said:


> Still have yet to get in contact with Ariens. I'd rate their customer service as poor. I did notice when I turn the ignition key I hear a clicking sound coming from the are of the fuel tank. No fuel is in the fuel filter I recently installed. Any suggestions?


Contact your dealer


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## Mountain Man (Oct 14, 2018)

rlogan said:


> Still have yet to get in contact with Ariens. I'd rate their customer service as poor. I did notice when I turn the ignition key I hear a clicking sound coming from the are of the fuel tank. No fuel is in the fuel filter I recently installed. Any suggestions?


Ariens can be tricky to get ahold of. That's why go through the dealer you bought it from. They can diagnose, get waranty authorized and repaired much easier than you calling the factory.


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## 140278 (Aug 27, 2020)

rlogan said:


> Still have yet to get in contact with Ariens. I'd rate their customer service as poor. I did notice when I turn the ignition key I hear a clicking sound coming from the are of the fuel tank. No fuel is in the fuel filter I recently installed. Any suggestions?


in another post you wrote that there was the needed 7.2 volts at the pump plug wires, if so, you have a bad INTANK electric fuel pump assembly . there is a filter attached to the pump inside the tank
why didn't you take it back to the dealer? you have a 3 year warranty


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## 140278 (Aug 27, 2020)

( When I tried to put the cover back on, the bolts that secure it in place wouldn't thread because the tank had moved during their removal. It looks like they were forced on at the manufacturer. I had to loosen more bolts that hold the tank in place to realign the hole. I can only say this is poor quality control and poor design.)

i hope you have either taken the machine to a dealer or replaced the fuel pump at this point, yet i have to note your remark about having to loosen the bolts to line back the tank and covers,

PLEASE take note that many bolts used in assembly of many items today are self taping/ thread rolling, meaning they cut their own threads into a casting or item when assembled, the item they thread into is not tapped saving money on assembly, end result is many times when reassembling the threads no longer align, there by making it so one needs to be loosened to align another item, it's something very common for shop techs 
also they have 1st time torque when they cut thier thread and a 2nd torque when being reused which is a lower value so to not strip the threads made the first round.


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## jr27236 (Feb 19, 2021)

Curious how this was resolved. I just purchased the 28 pro 926068 myself.


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

I think that I saw that he said he added a filter . . . gotta wonder of that may have either put more load on the pump, or somehow is preventing it from priming (if drained for storage). Also, I don't recall any direction from Ariens to drain these, but lots of marketing on how, since the system is sealed, there is no need. In any case, if it was modified, might explain the reluctance to go to the dealer . . . 

And I am still confused about why folks call these complicated when they have far less moving parts than a carbed engine! Pump, injector, throttle plate servo, that's it, as opposed to gove in the engine, gov linkages, choke linkages, throttle linkages, float, needle, throttle plate, choke plate, needles . . .


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## jr27236 (Feb 19, 2021)

I had a marine mechanic tell me to use marvel mystery oil in the fuel when storing the motor for the winter to keep the injectors from sticking and such. I wonder if that would apply here to keep the fuel pump and injectors from sticking. It definitely can't hurt.


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## 140278 (Aug 27, 2020)

the efi pump has a filter screen on it inside the tank why add another ?


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## drmerdp (Feb 9, 2014)

Not surprising if the inlet filter sock plugs up.

Honda’s EU7000 has an EFI system with in-tank high pressure pump. The filter socks on the pump are notorious for plugging up over time. I keep a spare sock just in case.


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## davepb (Mar 13, 2021)

Just a note: when your warranty is over and you need engine parts order from a LCT dealer. Example Ariens gets about $85 for a fuel pump you can buy the same pump with the Ariens part number on the box, and the LCT number on the box for less than $20 from a LCT dealer. 
Dave


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## 140278 (Aug 27, 2020)

welcome to the SBF

please post some links as having been a ope dealer i never found them that cheap


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## davepb (Mar 13, 2021)

Pats small engine less than $19.00 $8.00 flat rate shipping. I have seen it a low as $17.11


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## jr27236 (Feb 19, 2021)

rlogan said:


> I bought this snow thrower last year. I'm getting it ready for action this year and I just can't get the thing to turn over. It's indicating a trouble code of 27. I've got fresh fuel in the tank, a new fuel filter and the pump voltage looks ok at the connector (7.1V). When I try to start the engine, I hear a clicking sound coming from the area of the fuel tank. Does anyone have experience troubleshooting this problem? Thanks.


So just bring this up again for future purchasers of these EFI systems on the Ariens. 
I replied to the OP after I purchased mine 2/18/21 (big mistake)
Just as the OP stated he put it away and the no start saga began. Well I am now in the same boat, tried to start this approx 2 months after buying it. Now I followed the manual to the T, what I did was add STABIL 360 and top off the fuel tank to get rid of the air space for any condensation. Ran it, made sure the battery on the control module was charged and then parked it in the garage. It NEVER seen snow. Well boys its been at the dealer since I believe august. They finally called me to pick it up yesterday, bring it out running STICKERS ALL FADED and it shuts off right in front of mt and refuses to start. LOL you cant make this up. Im most likely selling this as soon as I get it back without ever using it. Like cars today, over engineered.


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## Blackstar (Dec 27, 2010)

New fuel filter in backwards?


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## jr27236 (Feb 19, 2021)

Blackstar said:


> New fuel filter in backwards?


On my machine? It is absolutely a electronic issue on mine, it actually was flashing the same code as the op after the same exact situation of storing it and no start soon afterwards. Either the entire control module or the battery that powers it. I have never owned a machine that had to ever go to the dealer for repair EVER. This unnecessary technology is why im in this predicament. I should of purchased the carb version on this model.


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## Mountain Man (Oct 14, 2018)

Wonder if they can just replace the engine ( under waranty)with a carbed model, would save them replacing the whole machine.


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## jr27236 (Feb 19, 2021)

Mountain Man said:


> Wonder if they can just replace the engine ( under waranty)with a carbed model, would save them replacing the whole machine.


I should of purchased the carb version of it from the start. Less money also


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

A 27 is low fuel pressure . . . . seems like it should be pretty easy to resolve. Was this stored dry, or with fuel in it?


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## jr27236 (Feb 19, 2021)

tadawson said:


> A 27 is low fuel pressure . . . . seems like it should be pretty easy to resolve. Was this stored dry, or with fuel in it?


Stored with fuel from the dealer that I added stabilizer too and topped off with a little of my own (yes e-gas)


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

Well, kills that theory . . . a lot of efi fuel pumps don't tolerate being dry well.

3 items left:


Fuel pump
Pressure sensor and it's wire
Power to fuel pump


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## jr27236 (Feb 19, 2021)

tadawson said:


> Well, kills that theory . . . a lot of efi fuel pumps don't tolerate being dry well.
> 
> 3 items left:
> 
> ...


I definitely didnt hear the whine that i heard when I first brought it home. I would say fuel pump issue


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## ChrisJ (Nov 27, 2014)

After reading this thread I'm getting the feeling @dman2 doesn't like EFI on snowblowers but I'm still not sure.


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## jr27236 (Feb 19, 2021)

ChrisJ said:


> After reading this thread I'm getting the feeling @dman2 doesn't like EFI on snowblowers but I'm still not sure.


LOL. Im saying as an owner of a 3k machine that I never used and didnt restart after only 2 months. STAY AWAY.


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## Sam Am I (Oct 28, 2021)

Long post.....apologies

So I might have stumbled on perhaps an issue that might help some here............So I think I left the key on and dis-charged the battery enough that the ECU went insane because it's supply voltage was too low.

Not exactly sure how but my battery was too low.

I went to start the blower after a previous 20 minute run the night before and the normal pump and throttle body didn't make the same sound they normally do when the key is first turned on and it wouldn't start.....

BUT if then waited like 20 sec's after the key was switched to on, it would sorta make the right noise and would run for a sec and shut down and NOW I could smell gas.

Looked at the ECU and it was flashing a error code 27, "low fuel pressure"

I took off the throttle body cover and could see gas dripping off the bottom of the throttle body for just a sec each time the key was cycled. So I got a flash light and could see inside it was the injector peeing a significant stream/amount of gas. It was so much so, it was flooding the throttle body and dripping out the intake for each key cycle. It would pee a good stream and also the butterfly valve would open and close once.

Each key cycle, wait 20 sec's, it would pee this quick stream and stop, I could then start it, BUT it would run for a sec and stop.......

After maybe 5 minutes of trying, the thing now started was making a really weird noise, a buzzing (too low of voltage to the fuel pump I assume now) and the ECU red light was dim and stopped giving code flashes

ECU battery was down less then 7 something volts...........I assume under load the battery was dropping way less because if you measure the current draw when the key if first turn on, there's about 1.5 amps draw momentary and then the resting current is much less.

Charged battery for an hour and POOF, normal key on noises returned and it ran perfect!

Perhaps some issues above are low battery?....Measuring the battery with no load might show round 7'ish volts, BUT its loaded voltage might be(is) falling way less then a usable voltage and this low battery (mine was) is being masked as a error code 27.

Try charging the battery with the wall charger first and if that works, perhaps there is something wrong with the blower's own charging circuit, if not, maybe it's just a s**t battery out of the shoot(they are using old school NiCad's, maybe their 90's vintage battery's for real...LOL).

My issue was just leaving the key on or just was a loose connection to the battery, not sure BUT I did check the charge current to the NiCad once up and running, it was charging and up around 8.5VDC .


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

Probably NiMh not NiCd, but the overall observation of low voltage effects seems on-point! Low voltage -> low pump speed -> low fuel pressure . . .

Charge power source is also used as tach signal, so I would expect a power loss to have more effect than just not charging.


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## Sam Am I (Oct 28, 2021)

Yeh NiMh is correct, NiCd a bit too old, I may have just dated myself, DOH!!!.........

So from what I gather from the Arien's docs is that because the startor's charge winding AC sig is being fed/used by the ECU (assume tach must be derived there, yes) via F4, but additionally this same source (stator's AC sig) appears by their docs that they are internal to the ECU, also rectifying, filtering and regulating it then sending it back out via F3 to the NiMh as its charge source.

My assumption then based on the design is that the NiMh batt could/can lose it's ECU generated charge source (either a internal ECU failure or external disconnect[F3, lose connection, etc]), like I assume I may have experienced(or I left the key on), but the ECU could in fact still have its tach sig as the AC sig(stator's AC winging) could still be functional, but and again, the systems isn't charging the NiMh (my case).

But yes, and along your line of thinking of a total "power loss", (a stator failure/disconnect) will not only drop out the ECU derived NiMh charge source, but it would also drop out the tach sig to the ECU by default as well, totally agreed.....


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

The AC frequency off the stator is a function of the number of poles and engine speed, so about all they need to do is read it's freq. My poimt simply being that if stator powermis lost, the ECU loses speed reference, and it was stated that it ran fine, so that is likely not it. Might be an isshe with thencharge circuit, but I believe I heard the statement that the key was left on overnight, so likely this is nothing mlre than an easy error that shot the operator square in the foot . . .

Depending on charge current, a totally flat battery may well pull things down so far that the charge current isn't enough to run on when under load. Back probe the battery connector with it running at operating speed, and you will know quickly!


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## Sam Am I (Oct 28, 2021)

Could be a bleeding foot, yes and yes, but as stated earlier, I checked the charge current as soon as I got it fired up, it's charging and was up at 8.5V BUT in the process seems the molex connector to the battery is a bit flaky even if clipped properly and I usually don't leave ignition in the on position...........Who knows, hope it was just a shitty connection and I'm not that senile yet, thx for your inputs.


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## jr27236 (Feb 19, 2021)

Sam Am I said:


> Long post.....apologies
> 
> So I might have stumbled on perhaps an issue that might help some here............So I think I left the key on and dis-charged the battery enough that the ECU went insane because it's supply voltage was too low.
> 
> ...


You are EXACTLY correct as in the end the dealer reluctantly says it was the BATTERY the entire time. This dealer obviously does not have a tech who knows how to trouble shoot these EFI machines. I would of done all the diagnosing myself and most likely would of discovered the issue in the end preventing all this frustration. But as a Brand new 3k machine (yes I'm an idiot) I was not working on it and brought it in. I am sure I will be experiencing more issues in the future with this machine if I keep it, but will most likely be selling it as soon as it arrives home. Back to Carbs and nothing more then a stator for a light.


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## nokwitter (Dec 12, 2018)

I get that some folks want to stick with carbs because it’s what they know - I too have an ultrasonic cleaner that’ll become a boat anchor when carbs are canceled. But, for the record, the weak link in this post is the inexperienced (being kind) dealer/mechanic - not the $25 FI battery.


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## jr27236 (Feb 19, 2021)

nokwitter said:


> I get that some folks want to stick with carbs because it’s what they know - I too have an ultrasonic cleaner that’ll become a boat anchor when carbs are canceled. But, for the record, the weak link in this post is the inexperienced (being kind) dealer/mechanic - not the $25 FI battery.


I would have to agree with that, but this machine should never of had any issue especially when it is brand new.


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## JJG723 (Mar 7, 2015)

jr27236 said:


> You are EXACTLY correct as in the end the dealer reluctantly says it was the BATTERY the entire time. This dealer obviously does not have a tech who knows how to trouble shoot these EFI machines. I would of done all the diagnosing myself and most likely would of discovered the issue in the end preventing all this frustration. But as a Brand new 3k machine (yes I'm an idiot) I was not working on it and brought it in. I am sure I will be experiencing more issues in the future with this machine if I keep it, but will most likely be selling it as soon as it arrives home. Back to Carbs and nothing more then a stator for a light.


If it does prove to have been the battery all along, that is the simplest of possible fixes. I would personally give the machine a second chance. At least while it's under warranty. Of course if you don't have a back up machine in case this one goes down again, that can influence the decision to hang on to it. Either way I understand your frustration and wanting to move on from it. Good luck either way.


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## Sam Am I (Oct 28, 2021)

Long post, AGAIN.....apologies gents

So I think, and as eluded to earlier this Molex connector (see included picture below) is flaky.............I've verified that since the stator provides the ECU its AC signal (for tach, battery charge source, etc), the ECU(its PCB components) then is/are also conditioning (rectify, filter and regulate) this AC stator signal that it sends as DC back out to charge the NiMh battery.

Yes.....Once the machine starts, you can unplug the NiMh and she continues to run like a top as the stator(magneto) now obviously can provide the ECU its necessary power(and AC freq for tach etc) to run things........I've just ran mine this way.

Sooooooo, the point here? If the battery connector is flaky as mine seems to be, the battery got me started and yet was not properly charging once running (vibration in the dash is perhaps making the connector flake out). i.e., Each time it started, it took the battery down just a bit, BUT this also meant it was slowly getting weaker and weaker a little bit each time because it's not really getting charged back up while running until POOF!!!!..........Insane ops of over priming and *gas leaking out* onto the tire, starting but shortly after dying AND error code "27", low fuel pressure!!!

This is my theory and I'm sticking to it because I'm not sure I've quite starting doing my own stunts yet by leaving ignition keys on by accident.....LOL. But, the net effect s/would have a similar outcome........

Seriously though, the connector is flaky (shitty pin engagement) while plugged and locked together because if I wiggle it about AND with the key on(but not running), the ECU's power cycles on and off telling me it has a flaky connection........ALSO the wall charger "charging" indicator light flips around from green to red if i wiggle the connector.

I can only assume it's doing the same while plugged into the ECU and running..I'll be replacing this connector with a bit more positive engagement connector. Perhaps I just got the only bad one, BUT...........

I've already tore into this thing down to the stator and back out just because that's what I do, it's a sickness I have......... HOWEVER, IMHO it's still a simple and well designed machine. The exception (as I have found and I'm not a snow blower design engineer) as stated above, is the Molex connector (and a firmware update, see insanity ops above) they've used that connects the ECU's output to the battery.

The stator, bridge rectifier, injector, pump and all associated connectors/wiring including the fuse box, sensor interconnects and electric chute/deflector hardware all seem very solid and of high quality components IMH[O] Opinion/Observation........

I think I'll keep mine, anyone wants to sell theirs? I'll buy it!!!


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## Sam Am I (Oct 28, 2021)

Waaay better...........


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## JJG723 (Mar 7, 2015)

That's the ticket 👍


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## Sam Am I (Oct 28, 2021)

JJG723 said:


> That's the ticket 👍


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## jr27236 (Feb 19, 2021)

Sam Am I said:


>


 nice job and no need really fornshrink wrap butt connectors.


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## Sam Am I (Oct 28, 2021)

jr27236 said:


> nice job and no need really for shrink wrap butt connectors.


Thanks and nope no butts here!! When spliced in, I heatshrink over the soldered splices though, BUT once in, the pins in these connectors fit together much tighter and they're a much higher quality connector then the old school Molex "type" they've used.

Not sure why Ariens went back to the 60's era here on this particular, but think the REAL problem is these are actually Chinese knock off Molex "types" as the tolerances are s**t unlike the real McCoys are.....Sloppy engineering on Ariens part to have allowed this out for production IMHO, it will bite them!!

Oh well got'er fixed up nice and snug, just need it to DUMP now!!........Picked up the connectors at the local Autozone, can also do the* Amazon* thing.


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## leonz (Dec 12, 2014)

I agree that letting this machine out with an open 
splice like that is bad especially since they did not 
use any automotive sealing gel.

Would using the non-conductive sealing gel from NAPA 
that they use for light bulbs that comes in an aerosol 
can work just as well??

In a real pinch one could use the orange-colored 3M brand 
direct burial tubes that are used by the folks at Invisible Fence 
for wire splices using wire nuts that have the same type of gel 
to waterproof a splice or unsoldered connection.


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## jr27236 (Feb 19, 2021)

Figured I would renew this thread. 
Today I attempted to start the machine- NO START. Immediately noticed it would just beep once and not make all the r2d2 noises it does when fine. Charged the battery and still nothing. I will be checking the fuel pump tomorrow and performing all necessary tests as per the shop manual. What a joke this technology is and a GIANT mistake by me getting caught up in purchasing it.


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## Town (Jan 31, 2015)

jr27236 said:


> Figured I would renew this thread.
> Today I attempted to start the machine- NO START. Immediately noticed it would just beep once and not make all the r2d2 noises it does when fine. Charged the battery and still nothing. I will be checking the fuel pump tomorrow and performing all necessary tests as per the shop manual. What a joke this technology is and a GIANT mistake by me getting caught up in purchasing it.


Sorry to hear of your non-start issue. Your Kraken has the latest technology and perhaps uses the 12 volt battery to power the EFI system instead of the small included battery in the older systems? So you may have connection issues when you removed and re-installed your battery.

A new thread would likely be better to avoid any confusion with the older system, if it doesn't work the same way.


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## GeorgePowell (Mar 17, 2019)

jr27236 said:


> Figured I would renew this thread.
> Today I attempted to start the machine- NO START. Immediately noticed it would just beep once and not make all the r2d2 noises it does when fine. Charged the battery and still nothing. I will be checking the fuel pump tomorrow and performing all necessary tests as per the shop manual. What a joke this technology is and a GIANT mistake by me getting caught up in purchasing it.


agreed..similar problems with my 2019 deluxe 30 efi . Dealer has agreed to exchange it for a Deluxe SHO 28 inch * 921048, carburetor model. 
And Ariens would not honor the warranty because it was a fuel injection problem, just waiting for them to put it together and will pick it up soon , yessss.


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## jr27236 (Feb 19, 2021)

GeorgePowell said:


> agreed..similar problems with my 2019 deluxe 30 efi . Dealer has agreed to exchange it for a Deluxe SHO 28 inch * 921048, carburetor model.
> And Ariens would not honor the warranty because it was a fuel injection problem, just waiting for them to put it together and will pick it up soon , yessss.


You're lucky your dealer was so cooperative. I didn't have such luck. These machines should be running on 12 v's not 7.2. It's not enough to kick these fuel pumps when they bind (for whatever reason that is)


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## GeorgePowell (Mar 17, 2019)

jr27236 said:


> You're lucky your dealer was so cooperative. I didn't have such luck. These machines should be running on 12 v's not 7.2. It's not enough to kick these fuel pumps when they bind (for whatever reason that is)


to be more precise...l am putting out 500$ for the exchange but l am happy to get the sho 28 with carb...


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## jr27236 (Feb 19, 2021)

GeorgePowell said:


> to be more precise...l am putting out 500$ for the exchange but l am happy to get the sho 28 with carb...


Oh ok, I thought they were doing an even swap but regardless I think you'll be trouble free. Until they make this EFI more dependable I am never touching another machine with it


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## crazzywolfie (Jun 2, 2014)

jr27236 said:


> You're lucky your dealer was so cooperative. I didn't have such luck. These machines should be running on 12 v's not 7.2. It's not enough to kick these fuel pumps when they bind (for whatever reason that is)


doesn't matter if it is a 12v pump of 7.2v pump. a stuck pump is a stuck pump. a 12v pump is just as likely to stick as a 6v pump. fuel injection is not really there yet to be used in a seasonal application. i almost feel like they will get electric snowblowers right before they get all the bugs worked out of fuel injected snowblowers.


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## jr27236 (Feb 19, 2021)

crazzywolfie said:


> doesn't matter if it is a 12v pump of 7.2v pump. a stuck pump is a stuck pump. a 12v pump is just as likely to stick as a 6v pump. fuel injection is not really there yet to be used in a seasonal application. i almost feel like they will get electric snowblowers right before they get all the bugs worked out of fuel injected snowblowers.


More power will provide more speed/torque. 7.2v just doesn't have the power to provide the demand to spin the pump effectively.


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## crazzywolfie (Jun 2, 2014)

jr27236 said:


> More power will provide more speed/torque. 7.2v just doesn't have the power to provide the demand to spin the pump effectively.


like i said already a stuck pump is a stuck pump. more power wont change that. all you might do is burn up the winding. you also have to take into consideration that the output of the stator coil is limited. they likely get more amperage at 7.2v than they would at `12v which is something else they took into consideration when building these machines. if you don't have enough amperage to run/charge the battery some it won't stay running for long.


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## jr27236 (Feb 19, 2021)

crazzywolfie said:


> like i said already a stuck pump is a stuck pump. more power wont change that. all you might do is burn up the winding. you also have to take into consideration that the output of the stator coil is limited. they likely get more amperage at 7.2v than they would at `12v which is something else they took into consideration when building these machines. if you don't have enough amperage to run/charge the battery some it won't stay running for long.


If the pump was "really stuck/jammed" then yes any prolonged voltage will eventually burn it up. But I'm talking about these little fuel pumps on the tank. They just seem to slightly bind where the battery voltage just is not enough to spin it free from whatever is creating this bind. 12v has the power to spin it loose. I'm basing this on my own experience doing this myself and observing the results in hitting this pump at different voltages. As soon as it was spun free the 7.2 was fine to operate it. If I do obtain a new pump and the current pump binds again I am going to attempt to open it and see why this is occurring.

Now you also got me thinking. I'm curious of the output of the stator on this machine and will check what it's putting out. The ECM on this is definitely the dictator of that for sure, so curious to know if they have this 7.2 battery because they are small and easy to mount underneath the dash and the stator is putting out more when running. They have to have some voltage regulator on it I'm sure.


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## ChrisJ (Nov 27, 2014)

jr27236 said:


> More power will provide more speed/torque. 7.2v just doesn't have the power to provide the demand to spin the pump effectively.


Voltage isn't power anymore than torque is power.

6v @ 2A is the same exact amount of power as 12v @ 1A.

I'm sure 7.2v was chosen for a reason and none of us know why.


----------



## jr27236 (Feb 19, 2021)

ChrisJ said:


> Voltage isn't power anymore than torque is power.
> 
> 6v @ 2A is the same exact amount of power as 12v @ 1A.
> 
> I'm sure 7.2v was chosen for a reason and none of us know why.


Yes your correct different voltages and different amperages can equal the same wattage. But DC motors as in this fuel pump are directly affected by the voltage entering it. If you had an old race track set as a kid you remember pulling on the speed trigger made these cars faster and slower. This is the same as what I did although I may not have explained it properly. 

DC Motor Speed vs Voltage

A DC motor's speed is directly proportional to the input voltage. The higher the input voltage, the faster the output speed. The lower the input voltage, the slower the output speed.

We can control the speed independently of torque by manipulating the supply voltage using a DC motor control unit. This allows the operator to maintain a steady torque over varying speeds or maintain a constant speed over a variable load


----------



## ChrisJ (Nov 27, 2014)

jr27236 said:


> Yes your correct different voltages and different amperages can equal the same wattage. But DC motors as in this fuel pump are directly affected by the voltage entering it. If you had an old race track set as a kid you remember pulling on the speed trigger made these cars faster and slower. This is the same as what I did although I may not have explained it properly.
> 
> DC Motor Speed vs Voltage
> 
> ...


Of course.
But the motor was designed to deliver X amount of power at the rated voltage.

You can within reason make a motor that's just as strong as 7.2v as another one is at 12v.

There's a chance you could supply that 7.2v motor with 12v momentarily to break it free but other than that I'd expect it to be strong enough for the job it was designed for.


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## jr27236 (Feb 19, 2021)

ChrisJ said:


> Of course.
> But the motor was designed to deliver X amount of power at the rated voltage.
> 
> You can within reason make a motor that's just as strong as 7.2v as another one is at 12v.
> ...


Yes 7.2v definitely is able to function that pump to do what it needs to do, but when it binded up for whatever reason, the 7.2 stock battery just didn't have it and yes that may have to do with the amperage of that battery. 
(Feel like we went in a giant circle here to come to the same conclusion in the end, but really enjoy the educational part of these forums I must say)


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## Sam Am I (Oct 28, 2021)

If the motor were to get stuck(for whatever reason), it needs some given power (HP) to free it from a given "stuck".

So, it'll take a given HP(some number) to un-stick it from a given stuck(some number). Agreed?

The more HP then the better, we'll have the best chance to "un-stick" it, the less HP might be too weak and the motor not be able to break free. Also agreed?

eq. 1) 1000Watt = 1.341 HP

or

eq. 2) 1W = 0.00134 HP

and by ohms law...

P(watts) = I (current) * V (voltage)

eq. 3) P = I*V

and

V (voltage) = I (current) * R (resistance)

eq. 4) V = I*R

or

eq. 5) I = V/R

Substitute eq. 5 into eq. 3.....

eq. 6) P = V^2/R

For rough, but close enough numbers to perhaps figure this out...........And we'll assume here the battery can provide the current necessary.

A DC motor's watts (some number) can be calc'd by it's current draw times a given battery voltage(some voltage) applied to it........See eq 3,

Current draw we know can be cal'd by a battery voltage applied (some number) divided by resistance(some number)....See eq. 5

So if we have a motor (some motor) on the shelf and it has a given resistance for its armature winding, we'll get a given current draw at a given applied voltage...Agreed?

So lets assume a motor(call it a 12V motor) has 1 ohms of winding resistance..........This winding resistance (a constant) isn't going to change much really no matter what voltage (a variable) is applied to it, less we smoke it by exceeding it's limits.....Also agreed?

Applying 12V to this 1 ohm motor..........

From eq. 5, P = V^2/R = 144/1 = 144W

From eq. 2, 1W = 0.00134 HP then 144W = 0.19 HP

Now apply 7.2V to this same 1 ohm motor...

From eq. 5, P = V^2/R =52 /1 = 52W

From eq. 2, 1W = 0.00134 HP then 52W = 0.07 HP

I then would think if for a given stuck(whatever that is), a "12V" motor ran at 7.2V developing less HP COULD be stuck over what the same motor ran at 12V would since 12V applied produces over twice the HP.

Just guessing though..........


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## ChrisJ (Nov 27, 2014)

A stuck motor produces 0 hp. 
It'll produce torque but no actual power.


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## Sam Am I (Oct 28, 2021)

In this case hp(E), eq., 1 post #67, not hp(I) is a function of work produced by the electromagnetic conversion internal to the motor.........

Is Mechanical Power same as electrical power?

*Mechanical power is defined as torque and RPM (rotation per minute) and electric power is defined as current and voltage*. Therefore, in order convert mechanical power into electric power, torque shall be converted into current and RPM shall be changed into voltage and both current and voltage remain present even if the motor is stalled/stuck.


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## jr27236 (Feb 19, 2021)

These are what I used to test the pump
7.2v battery fully charged(don't know the amps on it) NOTHING
9v 300ma little click from pump. As I kept tapping the wires to it like morse code, it seemed to improve, but never did it spin the pump free
12v 300ma - Instantly spun the pump up and sounded great. 
Then reattached the battery power and it functioned fine.


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## Town (Jan 31, 2015)

@jr27236 did you take a pic of the way the efi fuel pump attaches to the outside of the fuel tank?


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## jr27236 (Feb 19, 2021)

Town said:


> @jr27236 did you take a pic of the way the efi fuel pump attaches to the outside of the fuel tank?


https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/to...hare_fid=1423955&share_type=t&link_source=app[/URL]

See that post for a lot more pictures but here the one of the pump


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## Town (Jan 31, 2015)

jr27236 said:


> https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/to...hare_fid=1423955&share_type=t&link_source=app[/URL]
> 
> See that post for a lot more pictures but here the one of the pump


Thank you very much for the pictures. I am looking to install the 7 liter gas tank from the Kraken or Mountaineer, so I can see the need for an adapter in place of the EFI pump. My Pro has the carb.


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## jr27236 (Feb 19, 2021)

Town said:


> Thank you very much for the pictures. I am looking to install the 7 liter gas tank from the Kraken or Mountaineer, so I can see the need for an adapter in place of the EFI pump. My Pro has the carb.


When you remove the pump there is a big hole. Approx 1 inch or more.but if you are feeding a carb you can maybe let it gravity feed through the pump? I don't know if it would do that though or you may need to gut the pump and use the body of it so you can hook the fuel line up


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## Sam Am I (Oct 28, 2021)

jr27236 said:


> When you remove the pump there is a big hole. Approx 1 inch or more.but if you are feeding a carb you can maybe let it gravity feed through the pump? I don't know if it would do that though or you may need to gut the pump and use the body of it so you can hook the fuel line up


Not sure if you have yet as I didn't read back though all the posts, but did you get a replacement pump and test/try it? I'm thinking since my machine uses the same pump, ECM and batt as yours and mine (others?) aren't sticking(yet?), perhaps you just have a bum/sticky pump?


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## jr27236 (Feb 19, 2021)

Sam Am I said:


> Not sure if you have yet as I didn't read back though all the posts, but did you get a replacement pump and test/try it? I'm thinking since my machine uses the same pump, ECM and batt as yours and mine (others?) aren't sticking(yet?), perhaps you just have a bum/sticky pump?


See this other post I made in regards and what I did.

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/to...hare_fid=1423955&share_type=t&link_source=app[/URL]


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## Sam Am I (Oct 28, 2021)

jr27236 said:


> See this other post I made in regards and what I did.
> 
> https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/to...hare_fid=1423955&share_type=t&link_source=app[/URL]


Link is bad........


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## jr27236 (Feb 19, 2021)

https://www.snowblowerforum.com/thr...hare_fid=1423955&share_type=t&link_source=app">Tapatalk - 404 error


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## Nan_wpg (Jan 15, 2015)

GeorgePowell said:


> agreed..similar problems with my 2019 deluxe 30 efi . Dealer has agreed to exchange it for a Deluxe SHO 28 inch * 921048, carburetor model.
> And Ariens would not honor the warranty because it was a fuel injection problem, just waiting for them to put it together and will pick it up soon , yessss.


this has me worried. Ariens would not honor warranty? How/ why? They don’t warranty injectors? Maybe I won’t be buying an Ariens after all.


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## Sam Am I (Oct 28, 2021)

Arians 28Pro EFI system


So to renew this topic on my 28 pro hydro with the EFI system. Not soon after purchasing it I attempted to start it and it would not start. Brought it to the dealer. They let this thing sit out in the sun and rain and rust and fade. After 4 months at the dealer I got it back, had to compound and...




www.snowblowerforum.com





Hmmmm, man this is ify, my gut says your problem will be back.........Crossing fingers though.

BUT if so and it does come back or even if it doesn't, I just think you have a bum pump/isolated incident of goop or something in the works.

Do you think it is a design flaw? In that the design should use 12V instead of 7.2V? And if it was 12V, you would have never had your issue? I'm not clear on this I guess.......

I think if it was a design flaw then rest of us would be having similar issues, right? A design flaw s/would pretty much span the globe from same design machine to same design machine.

BUT in the event of a NON-NORMAL gooey issues occurring and perhaps sticking the thing, I would have to agree that IF the design, same motor was used with 12V verses the present design using 7.2V, 12V would tend to have a better chance to "un-stick" it, but again during NORMAL ops, the 7.2V is working okay else the rest of us s/would be having issues..........I had battery/connector issues, but not relating to this/your sticky motor type of issue.

Mine so far is okay with the 7.2V, but time will tell eh? I think I have maybe 10 hrs/one season on mine and I use non-eth gas FWIW. Maybe it'll snow real soon and I'll be firing it up...........

BTW, someone else here mentioned replacing a pump, had *metal shaving* in the tank?

THAT is very suspect if you ask me.........His issues was too similar to your issue of a non-working/stuck pump and a new'ish machine AND, sorry to be cynical, BUT with as fine as mesh screen used on these pumps for their intake filter, no metal shavings, even tiny tiny particle size wouldn't make it through that screen.......I just don't buy it!!

I don't believe this dealer at all and think maybe there could be a run of bad pumps out there, but since everyone that owns these things isn't here on this forum reporting, we're yet to see a trend for a compilation..........Again, time will tell, if mine sticks, we might have to have a word with the man!!!


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## jr27236 (Feb 19, 2021)

Sam Am I said:


> Arians 28Pro EFI system
> 
> 
> So to renew this topic on my 28 pro hydro with the EFI system. Not soon after purchasing it I attempted to start it and it would not start. Brought it to the dealer. They let this thing sit out in the sun and rain and rust and fade. After 4 months at the dealer I got it back, had to compound and...
> ...


My pump definitely didn't gooo up, it was more like a mechanical jam. But maybe spinning it up at the rpm I did polished the inside or did something beneficial. These are little no torque DC motors that have no balls. Obviously nothing bigger is really needed in this case. I started it yesterday and from the turn of the key it acted as it should and started flawlessly


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## Nan_wpg (Jan 15, 2015)

I think it’s a “one off”. Bad pump, Covid deficiencies? Out of round? Or yes possibly a bad batch of pumps? Guy working on the lct fuel pump assembly line had a bad day? Maybe you “polished” it to functional?

stuff happens. Sometimes random, and sometimes it’s an issue.

and I’d say given the EFI has been out 5 years now there really isn’t an overwhelming posting. And I’d think the first thing someone do is google “Ariens EFI issue” and land here. People are far more likely to complain online than to join a forum to say how awesome there stuff is. Just my opinion.

im back and forth on EFI or not.


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## Sam Am I (Oct 28, 2021)

jr27236 said:


> My pump definitely didn't gooo up, it was more like a mechanical jam. But maybe spinning it up at the rpm I did polished the inside or did something beneficial. These are little no torque DC motors that have no balls. Obviously nothing bigger is really needed in this case. I started it yesterday and from the turn of the key it acted as it should and started flawlessly


Got it, just thought with the wd-40 and 2 cycle oil it may have thinned a cheap sticky/tacky lube out, wasn't sure, but yeah stuck is stuck......Wondering then it sounds if more mechanically froze/hung up thing, it maybe was something more like a lack of lube and as it ran, the cheap bushings over heated a bit as they dried up. Not sure, but when it shuts off, the overheated dry bushing cool of course and sorta cold weld themselves to the armature's shaft.........Sounds like you got it more or less by getting some good lube back in it though.


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## Sam Am I (Oct 28, 2021)

Nan_wpg said:


> Covid deficiencies? .


Love it!!! This was the most convenient virus for so many in so many ways it was amazing to watch unfold. The infamous Covid excuse ran so rampant AND, it could be used universally for anything you needed it to........It was so powerful, Costco, even to today, used it to permanently take away my onions, sauerkraut, polish dogs and deli mustard!.......

OMG, only ketchup and reg mustard could thwart the virus if served in their little cups, but none of their other goodies could, nope, no way!! Relish was a carrier and spelled certain doom AND even in the same little cups served at the same time STILL had the power to infect all who dared chance it. What a bunch of BS! But hey, we did get relish back!! Such good folks there.


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## Nan_wpg (Jan 15, 2015)

Sam Am I said:


> Love it!!! This was the most conveinet virus for so many in so many ways it was amazing to watch unfold. The infamous Covid excuse ran so rampant AND, it could be used universally for anything........It was so powerful, Costco even used to to permanently take away my onions, sauerkraut, polish dogs and deli mustard!.......OMG, only ketchup and reg mustard could thwart the virus if served in their little cups, but none of their other goodies could, nope, no way!! Relish was a carrier and spelled certain doom AND even in little cups had the power to infect all who dared chance it. What a bunch of BS! But hey, we did get relish back!! So good folks there.


i get what your saying. But I was thinking more along the lines of deficiencies because of lockdowns, and staff shortages because of isolations which add extra work to the people who did show up. This could result in inferior product? No?

when people are over worked they make mistakes or don’t care? But I agree that Covid is now being abused or used as an excuse sometimes. A lot of stuff made absolutely no sense. (Like allowing high school wrestling but no handshaking after the match cause Covid…….)


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## Sam Am I (Oct 28, 2021)

Nan_wpg said:


> i get what your saying. But I was thinking more along the lines of deficiencies because of lockdowns, and staff shortages because of isolations which add extra work to the people who did show up. This could result in inferior product? No?
> 
> when people are over worked they make mistakes or don’t care? But I agree that Covid is now being abused or used as an excuse sometimes. A lot of stuff made absolutely no sense. (Like allowing high school wrestling but no handshaking after the match cause Covid…….)


Yup.........Lots of issues and fall out because of it, I was just being snotty.


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## Nan_wpg (Jan 15, 2015)

Sam Am I said:


> Yup.........Lots of issues and fall out because of it, I was just being snotty.


i agree 100% with you. I believe this can explain why there’s lots of quality control issues. It may explain the EFI fuel pump issues.

I actually started a thread about Covid possible deficiencies.


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## jr27236 (Feb 19, 2021)

You know when you guys first asked about my machine I was going to reply with " thank you for your inquiry, but due to covid my response time may be longer than expected" LMAO


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## Sam Am I (Oct 28, 2021)

jr27236 said:


> You know when you guys first asked about my machine I was going to reply with " thank you for your inquiry, but due to covid my response time may be longer than expected" LMAO


And this is PERFECTLY acceptable "during these uncertain times"


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## jr27236 (Feb 19, 2021)

Sam Am I said:


> And this is PERFECTLY acceptable "during these uncertain times"


LOL what's uncertain is if my machine will start when needed that's for sure


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## Nan_wpg (Jan 15, 2015)

jr27236 said:


> LOL what's uncertain is if my machine will start when needed that's for sure


and remember no matter if your machine starts, or not, “we’re all in this together”


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## Nan_wpg (Jan 15, 2015)

My god I forgot to ask the obvious, was the snowblower vacinated?


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## Tony-chicago (Feb 10, 2021)

Maybe it would be helpful to summarize this thread or start a new one


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

Sam Am I said:


> Arians 28Pro EFI system
> 
> 
> So to renew this topic on my 28 pro hydro with the EFI system. Not soon after purchasing it I attempted to start it and it would not start. Brought it to the dealer. They let this thing sit out in the sun and rain and rust and fade. After 4 months at the dealer I got it back, had to compound and...
> ...


I asked this in the other thread as well, but has anyone measured the voltage at the pump when the engine is running? Considering that the battery just gets the system powered and primed for start and then gets charged, it clearly does not use the battery to run, and the run voltage into the ECU _MUST_ be higher than 7.2 or it could not charge. (And the charger also has some drop - you _CANNOT_ put a NiMH battery across the stator and not expect to rapidly destroy the battery - there is clearly a charge controller on the ECU . . . ).


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## Sam Am I (Oct 28, 2021)

tadawson said:


> I asked this in the other thread as well, but has anyone measured the voltage at the pump when the engine is running? Considering that the battery just gets the system powered and primed for start and then gets charged, it clearly does not use the battery to run, and the run voltage into the ECU _MUST_ be higher than 7.2 or it could not charge. (And the charger also has some drop - you _CANNOT_ put a NiMH battery across the stator and not expect to rapidly destroy the battery - there is clearly a charge controller on the ECU . . . ).


Back on post #27.........I checked the battery directly once running and yes, the ECM does control the pump directly HOWEVER, does the controller pipe out the same voltage to the pump as it does the battery when running? Good question, BUT if I remember right when I was tearing into mine last winter, the pump's high side (+) was in fact hard tied to the battery node of (7.2V when resting/8.5V when running) of the ECM and its(the pump) low side (-) is *PWM/switched* by a transistor internal to the ECM.

So as a gross analogy, take a motor and hard wire its positive lead to a battery, then to turn it on and off, touch its negative lead to the negative battery terminal or better yet! And to do it much much faster AND vary the duty cycle, use a transistor (an electronic switch) that is computer controlled to do for you that you were doing manually.


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## jr27236 (Feb 19, 2021)

Nan_wpg said:


> and remember no matter if your machine starts, or not, “we’re all in this together”


Lmao yes so since they are pushing that agenda, that means you have to help me shovel lol


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## jr27236 (Feb 19, 2021)

Nan_wpg said:


> My god I forgot to ask the obvious, was the snowblower vacinated?


Holy hell your onto something, my machine may have had Covid!!! That explains it's lack of wanting to work. It's also of the NEW generation so maybe that's also why it doesn't want to work....


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## jr27236 (Feb 19, 2021)

tadawson said:


> I asked this in the other thread as well, but has anyone measured the voltage at the pump when the engine is running? Considering that the battery just gets the system powered and primed for start and then gets charged, it clearly does not use the battery to run, and the run voltage into the ECU _MUST_ be higher than 7.2 or it could not charge. (And the charger also has some drop - you _CANNOT_ put a NiMH battery across the stator and not expect to rapidly destroy the battery - there is clearly a charge controller on the ECU . . . ).


I never measured mine after running but it is easily done so maybe I will remove the cover again and get some real world measurements. I would like to see what the stator is putting out at full rpm also. A replacement one I saw said 60w AC I believe, which I guess gets converted by the ECU to DC?


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## jr27236 (Feb 19, 2021)

Tony-chicago said:


> Maybe it would be helpful to summarize this thread or start a new one


Why?


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

jr27236 said:


> I never measured mine after running but it is easily done so maybe I will remove the cover again and get some real world measurements. I would like to see what the stator is putting out at full rpm also. A replacement one I saw said 60w AC I believe, which I guess gets converted by the ECU to DC?


I looked at the manual again today that was linked, and supposedly the pump should see 7.2 to 8.4 DC running, and the stator 11.4 to 12.5v AC (and stator wattage has absolutely nothing to do with the voltage it puts out). The ECU clearly has a rectifier, regulator, and I would wager a battery charger on it . . . That's just an odd voltage, considering that no logic or CPU that I am aware of uses it, so I suspect that they may be pulling power from the battery circuit while it is charging, and using the battery as a filter, for the motors, pumps, and such and regulating down more for the processor . . that would be quite common. (I ha e boards in other motor control type apps that get 48 DC iirc, and regulate to 12, 5, and 3.3 for various parts of the cards logic.) The servo on the throttle body at least _looks_ identical in form to a radio control servo, and those typically are 4.8v on the low end to about the 8.4 seen here on the high end, so it's possible that that choice of part may have a role in this voltage choice. Those servos are controlled via PWM, and libraries to run them are available for most processors out there, so that makes sense as well . . . this may well be a PIC based ECU using common interface libraries for the servo, and switching devices to turn the pump on, pulse the injector and set the throttle position according to the fueling map value seen when temp/rpm/throttle position/fuel pressure/and air pressure are input . . . (There are open projects for EFI, and while the basics algorithms are not that complex, determining the fueling map, start conditions, etc. and playing the EPA game is what is a bugger . . .

To the guy who asked (I think in this thread) if this was port injection, the answer is yes, so the point in the cycle when the injector fires is likely unimportant (and why there is no sensor to determine TDC, since the ECU does not control ignition in this application. The system simply supplies air and fuel as per the map, and the engine aspirates it the same as in any other 4c.


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## Sam Am I (Oct 28, 2021)

jr27236 said:


> I never measured mine after running but it is easily done so maybe I will remove the cover again and get some real world measurements. I would like to see what the stator is putting out at full rpm also.












Taken directly from the stator...approx half loaded (ECU running, few lights, etc)

EDIT: This is a 2021 Great Lakes Edition


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

I am not quite as familiar with that scope as I could be . . . am I seeing 13.5v at about 223 Hz correctly, and I assume that is the stator? And at what engine speed?

For others (and sorry if this is obcious to some), but this clearly also shows where the tach signal is derived in the EFI . . . the frequency of that signal is directly proportional to the speed the stator rotates. (I just would have expexted it to be higher . . . a 1 pole stator I would expect to give shaft speed, and multi pole multioles thereof . . . considering a blower engine never does 223 RPM, I'm stuck on that a bit . . .


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## Sam Am I (Oct 28, 2021)

tadawson said:


> I am not quite as familiar with that scope as I could be .


Standard run of the mill scope...Well, Chinese HP wanna be



tadawson said:


> am I seeing 13.5v at about 223 Hz correctly,


Yeah, around 13Vp



tadawson said:


> and I assume that is the stator?


Yes, as I stated below the picture, "Taken directly from the stator"



tadawson said:


> And at what engine speed?


So our stator's are 8 poles, which give 4 Pulses per Rev = 4 Pulses/Rev = 4 P/R (eq. 1)


The Freq is 223Hz as you noted can be stated also as 223 Cycles per Sec = 223 C/S or also stated as 223 Pulses per Sec = 223 P/S (eq. 2)


mult eq. 2 by scalar 60 to change sec to minutes


223 P/S * 60 = 13380 P/M (eq. 3)


divide eq. 3 by eq. 1 = (13380 P/M)/(4 P/R) = (13380 P/M) * (1/4 R/P) [P's cancel] = (13380/4) R/M = 3345 R/M = 3345 RPM


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

Sam Am I said:


> Standard run of the mill scope...Well, Chinese HP wanna be
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I too have a Rigol, and I guess there are different ways to get parms . . . On mine, I get voltage, freq, etc. on the bottom . . . not sure about the measurements on cursor A and B by commparison (have not had mine too long) and also did not see volta/div for channel A that made sense on a quick glance, so thanks for the clarification. 

And, on my quick read, I went 'taterhead and skipped right over per second vs. per minute . . . . Trying to do too much at one time I guess


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## Sam Am I (Oct 28, 2021)

Very welcome and yeah, that fancy cursor screen thing is a pain, not sure even where i(or it set itself too) had it set too or even what the heck it was measuring half the time. I should just shut it off to avoid confusion (and honesly? I don't think i know how....lol).......... I'm too old school, usually ignore it I guess and just read off the screen divisions.


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## Nan_wpg (Jan 15, 2015)

jr27236 said:


> Holy hell your onto something, my machine may have had Covid!!! That explains it's lack of wanting to work. It's also of the NEW generation so maybe that's also why it doesn't want to work....


so, it’s possible your machine figures the world owes it a living? It doesn’t have to remove snow? I’ll bet it didn’t ask to be manufactured as well. And is it possible that your machine is smoking lots of pot?


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## Nan_wpg (Jan 15, 2015)

jr27236 said:


> Why?


actually not a bad idea?? Maybe some kind of EFI thread or forum with sub forum, I.e trouble shooting thread, EFI discussion thread, list of failure thread?? Just my 2cents


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## Nan_wpg (Jan 15, 2015)

tadawson said:


> I looked at the manual again today that was linked, and supposedly the pump should see 7.2 to 8.4 DC running, and the stator 11.4 to 12.5v AC (and stator wattage has absolutely nothing to do with the voltage it puts out). The ECU clearly has a rectifier, regulator, and I would wager a battery charger on it . . . That's just an odd voltage, considering that no logic or CPU that I am aware of uses it, so I suspect that they may be pulling power from the battery circuit while it is charging, and using the battery as a filter, for the motors, pumps, and such and regulating down more for the processor . . that would be quite common. (I ha e boards in other motor control type apps that get 48 DC iirc, and regulate to 12, 5, and 3.3 for various parts of the cards logic.) The servo on the throttle body at least _looks_ identical in form to a radio control servo, and those typically are 4.8v on the low end to about the 8.4 seen here on the high end, so it's possible that that choice of part may have a role in this voltage choice. Those servos are controlled via PWM, and libraries to run them are available for most processors out there, so that makes sense as well . . . this may well be a PIC based ECU using common interface libraries for the servo, and switching devices to turn the pump on, pulse the injector and set the throttle position according to the fueling map value seen when temp/rpm/throttle position/fuel pressure/and air pressure are input . . . (There are open projects for EFI, and while the basics algorithms are not that complex, determining the fueling map, start conditions, etc. and playing the EPA game is what is a bugger . . .
> 
> To the guy who asked (I think in this thread) if this was port injection, the answer is yes, so the point in the cycle when the injector fires is likely unimportant (and why there is no sensor to determine TDC, since the ECU does not control ignition in this application. The system simply supplies air and fuel as per the map, and the engine aspirates it the same as in any other 4c.


that was me! Damn I feel smarter than I am, lol. I think we should ask for an EFI sub forum. There’s enough interest, and problems starting to pop up and it’s already a goose chase for the info.


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## Nan_wpg (Jan 15, 2015)

Ok, I just had a quick read of the service manual linked earlier. There’s a whole EFI troubleshooting section, and admitidly I’m just arm chairing it and never done it, but it looks like a lot of troubleshooting can be done very quickly.

but I do have a question for the EFI gods:

1st off, the ecu is supposed to have a servo throttle adjustment that CANT be tampered with. Got it. But I noticed other pictures of the ecu do NOT have this adjustment screw. Did Ariens change that?

2nd: manual says the servo offset is factory set on a flow bench. (Pleasing extreme ignorance here) does that mean if the ecu is replaced, the calibration has to be re done? Is it specific to each machine? This scares me. I’m confident in my ability to replace each and every EFI component. But, there’s no way I can recalibrate a servo adjustment on a flow bench. I have no idea what it means, and don’t know what a flow bench is, lol.

the layman in me is guessing the newer ecu’s no longer have the adjustment because they are set at the factory, and are a one and done type deal. It appears that there’s no way to update, or flash these things. I mean, it’s not a space shuttle right?

my gut is telling me to stick with the carbed platinum, and yet I’m both afraid, and intrigued about the EFI system. I love to learn.


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## Nan_wpg (Jan 15, 2015)

Sam Am I said:


> Very welcome and yeah, that fancy cursor screen thing is a pain, not sure even where i(or it set itself too) had it set too or even what the heck it was measuring half the time. I should just shut it off to avoid confusion (and honesly? I don't think i know how....lol).......... I'm too old school, usually ignore it I guess and just read off the screen divisions.


you own the platinum great lakes edition? Do you like it? The electric chute controls…. It’s the joystick control I see, and I guess there’s a motor for chute Sid’s to side.

but I notice the deflector up and down is still cable, but what controls the cable? Yes the joystick but where’s the motor that moves the cable? How does it work? I can’t see it on any pictures?


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## jr27236 (Feb 19, 2021)

Nan_wpg said:


> Ok, I just had a quick read of the service manual linked earlier. There’s a whole EFI troubleshooting section, and admitidly I’m just arm chairing it and never done it, but it looks like a lot of troubleshooting can be done very quickly.
> 
> but I do have a question for the EFI gods:
> 
> ...


To answer your "first' I believe that adjustment is on the bottom of the throttle body. You see the potentiometer (I think that's what it called) 


You guys blew my brain out with the earlier discussion that I completely don't understand lol


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## Tony-chicago (Feb 10, 2021)

Wonder if the joystick has enough travel to not need a motor.


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## jr27236 (Feb 19, 2021)

Tony-chicago said:


> Wonder if the joystick has enough travel to not need a motor.


What joystick?


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

Tony-chicago said:


> Wonder if the joystick has enough travel to not need a motor.





Nan_wpg said:


> Ok, I just had a quick read of the service manual linked earlier. There’s a whole EFI troubleshooting section, and admitidly I’m just arm chairing it and never done it, but it looks like a lot of troubleshooting can be done very quickly.
> 
> but I do have a question for the EFI gods:
> 
> ...


If they are using RC type PWM servo controls, those tend to be quite repeatable, especially if the servomis digital with optical encoders. I suspect that the ECU needs to have the adjustment due to the sensors being analog, and perhaps some wiggle room in all the inputs and A2D getting to the fueling map to ensure that the correct flow is commanded as per the map (and likely mandated by the EPA). They _could_ do this on every blower, but that would be insane, so I doubt it . . . (Otherwise, every dealer would have to have a fkow bench to do service, or ship the whole mess back every time there was a replacement, and if that were true, I doubt the EPA would allow parts sales to Joe public (the same reason for limiter caps on carbs . . . ).


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

Tony-chicago said:


> Wonder if the joystick has enough travel to not need a motor.


As others noted not sure which you are referring to, but the stick on the non e-chute plat moves quite easily unless under a heavy snow load, so not exactly sure what problem the e-chute is supposed to fix, other than ". . . because the other guy has it!"


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## Nan_wpg (Jan 15, 2015)

Tony-chicago said:


> Wonder if the joystick has enough travel to not need a motor.


Electric/mechanical joystick? Interesting


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## Nan_wpg (Jan 15, 2015)

tadawson said:


> As others noted not sure which you are referring to, but the stick on the non e-chute plat moves quite easily unless under a heavy snow load, so not exactly sure what problem the e-chute is supposed to fix, other than ". . . because the other guy has it!"


im refering to the electric chute joystick. I asked where the motor was for the deflector on an Ariens. Tony suggested that maybe the joystick is electric for side to side, and mechanically adjusted the cable mechanically for deflection


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## Nan_wpg (Jan 15, 2015)

tadawson said:


> If they are using RC type PWM servo controls, those tend to be quite repeatable, especially if the servomis digital with optical encoders. I suspect that the ECU needs to have the adjustment due to the sensors being analog, and perhaps some wiggle room in all the inputs and A2D getting to the fueling map to ensure that the correct flow is commanded as per the map (and likely mandated by the EPA). They _could_ do this on every blower, but that would be insane, so I doubt it . . . (Otherwise, every dealer would have to have a fkow bench to do service, or ship the whole mess back every time there was a replacement, and if that were true, I doubt the EPA would allow parts sales to Joe public (the same reason for limiter caps on carbs . . . ).





jr27236 said:


> To answer your "first' I believe that adjustment is on the bottom of the throttle body. You see the potentiometer (I think that's what it called)
> 
> 
> You guys blew my brain out with the earlier discussion that I completely don't understand lol


My bad. I looked at your photos again. Yup, adjustment is on the throttle


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## Nan_wpg (Jan 15, 2015)

tadawson said:


> If they are using RC type PWM servo controls, those tend to be quite repeatable, especially if the servomis digital with optical encoders. I suspect that the ECU needs to have the adjustment due to the sensors being analog, and perhaps some wiggle room in all the inputs and A2D getting to the fueling map to ensure that the correct flow is commanded as per the map (and likely mandated by the EPA). They _could_ do this on every blower, but that would be insane, so I doubt it . . . (Otherwise, every dealer would have to have a fkow bench to do service, or ship the whole mess back every time there was a replacement, and if that were true, I doubt the EPA would allow parts sales to Joe public (the same reason for limiter caps on carbs . . . ).


so if/when the throttle body needed replacement, I could just swap it out? When Ariens says it’s calibrated do they mean the throttle assembly calibrates to itself, and is plug and play? Ariens (or lct) have pre determined the wiggle room?

that’s my take as the injector is the only replaceable piece on the assembly.

dumb question time: that little adjustment thingie, would that be the digital equivalent of an adjustable jet on a carb?


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

Nan_wpg said:


> so if/when the throttle body needed replacement, I could just swap it out? When Ariens says it’s calibrated do they mean the throttle assembly calibrates to itself, and is plug and play? Ariens (or lct) have pre determined the wiggle room?
> 
> that’s my take as the injector is the only replaceable piece on the assembly.
> 
> dumb question time: that little adjustment thingie, would that be the digital equivalent of an adjustable jet on a carb?


That would be my assumption that calibration is to get them all to be at the same flow at the same commanded position. Not sure exactly what they adjusting, but I would suspect the position of the butterfly servo, not the injector.


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## jr27236 (Feb 19, 2021)

tadawson said:


> That would be my assumption that calibration is to get them all to be at the same flow at the same commanded position. Not sure exactly what they adjusting, but I would suspect the position of the butterfly servo, not the injector.


I believe these throttle bodies have a zero stop point and when you turn the key on everything goes into the position or pressure or what have you to start. No where on this throttle body is a set screw or any other manual adjustment. That means that the ECU upon power on, does quick checks and zero resets to achieve start. The throttle is then controlled by a simple RC servo that literally looks the same as my sons Traxxas RC cars and adjusts the throttle the same. I think we are trying to reinvent the wheel here by over thinking this technology. 

But then again I've been drinking many beers tonight so don't rip me apart lol.


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## Sam Am I (Oct 28, 2021)

Nan_wpg said:


> you own the platinum great lakes edition? Do you like it? The electric chute controls…. It’s the joystick control I see, and I guess there’s a motor for chute Sid’s to side.
> 
> but I notice the deflector up and down is still cable, but what controls the cable? Yes the joystick but where’s the motor that moves the cable? How does it work? I can’t see it on any pictures?


I do and yes, so far I like it, need some good deep snow to test it better, but so far so good.

The thumb controlled joystick for the electric chute and deflector I also have on a bit older (2020 I think) T.B. and NO way would I go backwards to manual, so when I saw Areins finally designed one, it was in the bag...SOLD! Both designs so far have proven flawless and both move the works around super fast.

No real problems cept the battery connector give me a bit of a fit due to a loose crappy connection. I just put on a better replacement connector.

Yes , there's another motor under the console (seen below on left side) that has cables running forward to the up/down deflector.

A bit off topic...........

I've mod'd it a bit here and there, BUT another mod I think I want AND if I get bored enough this winter, I'll add a 12V electric start to it..........Thinking for the battery, want to try a Dewalt 5ah 12V Lithium that slides into a Dewalt factory saddle mounted on the machine somewheres non-descript.........Not sure on lithium discharge rates (depends on type of lithium, poly or not Dewalt uses, need research) and current draw of Areins 12V starters(more research). BUT, If I can get a decent discharge rate of say around 10C for a few seconds around -5 F, it might just work.. Just pop on a pre-charged battery from the* wall of charge* and good to go, errrr, start......Make it so the GF has a easier time if she wants to run it.

And if I get real real bored and it works well, design a charger that adapts the Ariens charge system to Dewalt start batt so the battery can just live/charge from the blower, but still can pop off and be readily replaced.


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## Nan_wpg (Jan 15, 2015)

Sam Am I said:


> I do and yes, so far I like it, need some good deep snow to test it better, but so far so good.
> 
> The thumb controlled joystick for the electric chute and deflector I also have on a bit older (2020 I think) T.B. and NO way would I go backwards to manual, so when I saw Areins finally designed one, it was in the have bag...SOLD! Both designs so far have proven flawless and both move the works around super fast.
> 
> ...


Is there some type of over ride for the chute if a motor fails? I guess you can man handle it if need be.
The kraken has a starter battery. And it still has an EFI battery. Why not run a single battery?

seeing all the wiring and harnesses makes me nervous. All that snow blowing, and swirling. Water + electricity.


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## Town (Jan 31, 2015)

Nan_wpg said:


> Is there some type of over ride for the chute if a motor fails? I guess you can man handle it if need be.
> The kraken has a starter battery. And it still has an EFI battery. Why not run a single battery?
> 
> seeing all the wiring and harnesses makes me nervous. All that snow blowing, and swirling. Water + electricity.


I don't know anything about the EFI.

I have the 2022 Pro 28 RapidTrak with the electric motors for the chute and deflector. They work only when the engine is running. I used it last year and it is a very fast and precise system. When the engine is off there is no power for the switch and motors and the chute only moves slightly side to side (does not have any free-play in operation). The deflector has full range of motion but the spring returns it to static setting. I don't think there is an override to allow manual operation based on my reading of the manuals. Ariens has done a good job in locating the motors under cover and away from the snow. Even the switch location (sloping down) is carefully engineered to prevent a snow buildup. The switch is thumb operated with your hand on handlebar so quick to operate and you retain full two handed control of the machine; especially nice for shorter driveways with lots of turning.


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## Nan_wpg (Jan 15, 2015)

Town said:


> I don't know anything about the EFI.
> 
> I have the 2022 Pro 28 RapidTrak with the electric motors for the chute and deflector. They work only when the engine is running. I used it last year and it is a very fast and precise system. When the engine is off there is no power for the switch and motors and the chute only moves slightly side to side (does not have any free-play in operation). The deflector has full range of motion but the spring returns it to static setting. I don't think there is an override to allow manual operation based on my reading of the manuals. Ariens has done a good job in locating the motors under cover and away from the snow. Even the switch location (sloping down) is carefully engineered to prevent a snow buildup. The switch is thumb operated with your hand on handlebar so quick to operate and you retain full two handed control of the machine; especially nice for shorter driveways with lots of turning.


i have no doubt that electric chute is the cats meow! EFI also has some benefits. But the more we drift from KISS the more paranoid I get.

I can’t remember where, but I was watching some you tube repair videos, and the guy said “these things aren’t space shuttles”. It just seems we’re going the way of the space shuttle.

im all for stocking some wear and tear items, disks, cables, maybe a carb kit, or actually spare carb. Back in business quick.

i can also stock spare EFI, and spare electric motors, but then I should just by 2 machines, lol.

counter arguement is that all the fancy fancy stuff usually fails right away (warranty)

agreed, Ariens seems to have engineered for weather (based on pics).

and in my own experience (purely antidotal) is that most electrical type stuff such as the Ariens electric chute controls fail from LACK of use, not vice versa.

and since these blowers can sit for months, and sometimes years I think it may be good practice to fire an EFI Ariens up once a month or so and work the controls, fuel pump, etc. 

or just stick with a carb’s model and manual chute, lol. Ahh, first world problems.


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## ChrisJ (Nov 27, 2014)

IMO on a snowblower the electric chute has more benefits than EFI.
I'm still not sold on EFI. The whole "less rpm droop" isn't cutting it for me, if you've got too much droop with a mechanical governor the engine is too small. Period.

That puts EFI as only having the benefit of lower emissions all while having a ton of downsides, so far.


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

jr27236 said:


> I believe these throttle bodies have a zero stop point and when you turn the key on everything goes into the position or pressure or what have you to start. No where on this throttle body is a set screw or any other manual adjustment. That means that the ECU upon power on, does quick checks and zero resets to achieve start. The throttle is then controlled by a simple RC servo that literally looks the same as my sons Traxxas RC cars and adjusts the throttle the same. I think we are trying to reinvent the wheel here by over thinking this technology.
> 
> But then again I've been drinking many beers tonight so don't rip me apart lol.


That was my observation as well, and hence my reference to PWM . . . as I noted prior, libraries for this type of servo control are available for darn near anything. I was just responding to comments, since one said there was the adjustment on the ECU, and someone else said throttle bodh . . . In either case, it appears to be factory set to ensure that all behave the same in the same conditions. The big question is how good is the servo used?Mechanical pot,mor optical encoder?


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## Sam Am I (Oct 28, 2021)

tadawson said:


> The big question is how good is the servo used?Mechanical pot,mor optical encoder?












Hard to tell from the outside, but the servo's feedback loop be it optical or mechanical, if it's sealed well enough in it's box AND basically off the self consumer grade compontents, either IMO will outlast the engine/me. BUT, If I was to hazard a guess beings I've around one or two servo's in my life, and to keep cost lower (optical are $$$$), they used mechanical (a pot) as I think I would have as well.....And used decent pot manu of course,. e.g., A off the shelf $8 Bourns has a rotational life of 100,000 cycles.


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## jr27236 (Feb 19, 2021)

Sam Am I said:


> View attachment 198397
> 
> 
> Hard to tell from the outside, but the servo's feedback loop be it optical or machincal, if it's sealed well enough in it's box AND basically off the self consumer grade compontents, either IMO will outlast the engine/me


The servo is literally a standard Hobby servo.Savox sc-0252mg

For whatever reason it will not let me upload the pictures today.


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## Sam Am I (Oct 28, 2021)

jr27236 said:


> The servo is literally a standard Hobby servo.Savox sc-0252mg
> 
> For whatever reason it will not let me upload the pictures today.


Chinese I bet, BUT 4.5 star rating on Amazon FWIW........Well, if the manu has been doing servo's for a while, even hobby servo's are realible, esp in some of those uber high high end RC guys planes


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## jr27236 (Feb 19, 2021)

Sam Am I said:


> Chinese I bet........Well, if the manu has been doing servo's for a while, even hobby servo's are realible, esp in some of those uber high high end RC guys planes


Yes and basically this servo is only moving when you select you speed so it is getting far less use then on a rc plane or car for sure


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## Sam Am I (Oct 28, 2021)

jr27236 said:


> The servo is literally a standard Hobby servo.Savox sc-0252mg
> 
> For whatever reason it will not let me upload the pictures today.





jr27236 said:


> Yes and basically this servo is only moving when you select you speed so it is getting far less use then on a rc plane or car for sure


This is a good find(just bought one). What is Ariens fetching for this same $36 amazon priced unit i wonder? Might just need a spare for the shelf eh?

Of course it's not "Genuine" unless it's $150 via a dealer that has a Tee time coming up we can help him pay for.......Give me a brake and of course the Ariens guys whose job it is to scan sites/pages like this to glean info/idea's from ingenious snow blower folks such as our selves has JUST Bee Lined it into his boss's office.....

"I thought you said we were sanding off those OEM part numbers on those chineese servos that senior engineer what's his Dufus spec'd into our resent EFI's? FREAKING IDIOTS!!! We just lost us a ton of revenue from those"


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## Nan_wpg (Jan 15, 2015)

tadawson said:


> That was my observation as well, and hence my reference to PWM . . . as I noted prior, libraries for this type of servo control are available for darn near anything. I was just responding to comments, since one said there was the adjustment on the ECU, and someone else said throttle bodh . . . In either case, it appears to be factory set to ensure that all behave the same in the same conditions. The big question is how good is the servo used?Mechanical pot,mor optical encoder?


The adjustment is for sure on the throttle. The question is WHO factory sets it? Ariens? Of the throttle body manufacturer? Does it matter?

I was asking in context of a layperson like myself. Let’s say I buy EFI. Throttle assembly goes. I buy a new one. Can I,just swap it out or does it go on a flow bench?


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## Nan_wpg (Jan 15, 2015)

Sam Am I said:


> This is a good find(just bought one). What is Ariens fetching for this same $36 amazon priced unit i wonder? Might just need a spare for the shelf eh?
> 
> Of course it's not "Genuine" unless it's $150 via a dealer that has a Tee time coming up we can help him pay for.......Give me a brake and of course the Ariens guys whose job it is to scan sites/pages like this to glean info/idea's from ingenious snow blower folks such as our selves has JUST Bee Lined it into his boss's office.....
> 
> "I thought you said we were sanding off those OEM part numbers on those chineese servos that senior engineer what's his Dufus spec'd into our resent EFI's? FREAKING IDIOTS!!! We just lost us a ton of revenue from those"


servo is not available from Ariens. Only the entire assembly. Jr said the servo unscrews from assembly but is hard wired in. It’d have to be spliced.

but, this layperson is going to say the injector is the most likely to fail, thus why it’s replaceable (though Ariens says no)


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## jr27236 (Feb 19, 2021)

Nan_wpg said:


> The adjustment is for sure on the throttle. The question is WHO factory sets it? Ariens? Of the throttle body manufacturer? Does it matter?
> 
> I was asking in context of a layperson like myself. Let’s say I buy EFI. Throttle assembly goes. I buy a new one. Can I,just swap it out or does it go on a flow bench?


No you wouldn't have to flow bench. The potentiometer is for idle adjustment for the servo. I believe it's in the manual I sent you. So I would just be putting a meter on for rpm's and setting accordingly. I would also say that LCT is the ones during assembly set all the values and of cour Ariens just bolts them in and sends them out.


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## Nan_wpg (Jan 15, 2015)

jr27236 said:


> No you wouldn't have to flow bench. The potentiometer is for idle adjustment for the servo. I believe it's in the manual I sent you. So I would just be putting a meter on for rpm's and setting accordingly. I would also say that LCT is the ones during assembly set all the values and of cour Ariens just bolts them in and sends them out.


can you explain a bit more? Ya,the manual you sent says not to touch. When you say “meter rpm” and set accordingly how are you doing that? I thought this was all plug and play? No way to set anything other than throttle?


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## tabora (Mar 1, 2017)

Nan_wpg said:


> Let’s say I buy EFI.


You're not going to buy EFI... You'd never be able to sleep at night.


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## jr27236 (Feb 19, 2021)

tabora said:


> You're not going to buy EFI... You'd never be able to sleep at night.


Lmao


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## jr27236 (Feb 19, 2021)

Nan_wpg said:


> can you explain a bit more? Ya,the manual you sent says not to touch. When you say “meter rpm” and set accordingly how are you doing that? I thought this was all plug and play? No way to set anything other than throttle?


I have an automotive multi meter that allows me to clamp to the spark plug wire and reads engine rpm


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## Nan_wpg (Jan 15, 2015)

tabora said:


> You're not going to buy EFI... You'd never be able to sleep at night.


It’s looking that way, lol.

I get EFI. I do. So let’s play devil advocate now and see what benefits there are according to Ariens:

1. Easier to,start. Uhh I have no problem starting a carb blower. My wife and daughter would find it easier for sure Though. 
2. EFI more powerful. Uhh maybe? Dunno? My blower is powerful enough
3. More,fuel efficient/less emission. Negligble
4.EFI works better in mountains. I don’t live in the mountains. 
5.EFI is more reliable. LOLOL. up for debate. 
6.EFI less chance for fuel issues. I use trufuel, and drain carb. No issues. 
7.less maintenance/storage prep. Yes, but it’s not a big deal.

there really is no compelling reason to go EFI. (Maybe the internal governor thingie but how often does that really happen? My blower is 1981. Never happened).

one thing EFI does “better” is adjusting to environment. Yea you can fine tune a carb. Well i,can’t tune a new Ariens carb. Maybe rejet if needed.

guess I just talked myself out of EFI, lol. I do think it’s neat though.


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## Nan_wpg (Jan 15, 2015)

jr27236 said:


> I have an automotive multi meter that allows me to clamp to the spark plug wire and reads engine rpm


I need to learn how to properly write what I’m thinking, lol. So yes I understand how to read rpm. I have a meter thingie to do so. With a carb you can set the idle, and play around with linkage, etc to tune things up.

when I asked to,explain more I didn’t mean how do you read the rpm. You said “just be putting a meter on for rpm's and setting accordingly”.

I was asking what you are “setting accordingly”? I understood there’s nothing to set. The whole EFI system is all preset, or,so,I,thought? The only variable,setting is the servo thing on the bottom of the throttle, and that’s a no touchie.


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## jr27236 (Feb 19, 2021)

Nan_wpg said:


> I need to learn how to properly write what I’m thinking, lol. So yes I understand how to read rpm. I have a meter thingie to do so. With a carb you can set the idle, and play around with linkage, etc to tune things up.
> 
> when I asked to,explain more I didn’t mean how do you read the rpm. You said “just be putting a meter on for rpm's and setting accordingly”.
> 
> I was asking what you are “setting accordingly”? I understood there’s nothing to set. The whole EFI system is all preset, or,so,I,thought? The only variable,setting is the servo thing on the bottom of the throttle, and that’s a no touchie.


Right I believe the adjustment on the bottom of the throttle body acts just as the trim adjustment does on RC cars to drive straight without drifting left or right It's the same thing but setting the idle speed.


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

Sam Am I said:


> View attachment 198397
> 
> 
> Hard to tell from the outside, but the servo's feedback loop be it optical or mechanical, if it's sealed well enough in it's box AND basically off the self consumer grade compontents, either IMO will outlast the engine/me. BUT, If I was to hazard a guess beings I've around one or two servo's in my life, and to keep cost lower (optical are $$$$), they used mechanical (a pot) as I think I would have as well.....And used decent pot manu of course,. e.g., A off the shelf $8 Bourns has a rotational life of 100,000 cycles.


I agree mostly, but have found in RC that the vibration tears up pots a lot faster than just rotational cycles . . .


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

jr27236 said:


> The servo is literally a standard Hobby servo.Savox sc-0252mg
> 
> For whatever reason it will not let me upload the pictures today.


Not too bad . . . digital with metal gears . . . and the digitals typically use optical encoders and are quite precise. Gear sets and cases available, so some level of serviceability is possible. (And, do I win a prize? I think I speculated this to be an RC part 2 years or so when they first came out . . .)








SC0252MG - Standard Digital Servo .19/145 @ 6.0V


Standard Digital Servo .19/145 @ 6.0V




www.savoxusa.com


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## Sam Am I (Oct 28, 2021)

tadawson said:


> I agree mostly, but have found in RC that the vibration tears up pots a lot faster than just rotational cycles . . .


I'll pop it open and get us a peek when it arrives, not having to use a mechanical wiper would definitely be an advantage with optical, agreed.


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## GeorgePowell (Mar 17, 2019)

jr27236 said:


> Oh ok, I thought they were doing an even swap but regardless I think you'll be trouble free. Until they make this EFI more dependable I am never touching another machine with it


they did the swap for 400 in the end and they took care of the old bill,,, very happy .,, just received it


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## GeorgePowell (Mar 17, 2019)

Nan_wpg said:


> this has me worried. Ariens would not honor warranty? How/ why? They don’t warranty injectors? Maybe I won’t be buying an Ariens after all.


Just don't buy EFI...yet.
Carburator models are solid, well built and easier to fix.


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## jr27236 (Feb 19, 2021)

GeorgePowell said:


> Just don't buy EFI...yet.
> Carburator models are solid, well built and easier to fix.


100%. True


----------



## Toon (May 11, 2021)

The best possible design, is the simplest one that works well.
Albert Einstein


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## JJG723 (Mar 7, 2015)

Nan_wpg said:


> Is there some type of over ride for the chute if a motor fails? I guess you can man handle it if need be.
> The kraken has a starter battery. And it still has an EFI battery. Why not run a single battery?
> 
> seeing all the wiring and harnesses makes me nervous. All that snow blowing, and swirling. Water + electricity.


The kraken only has 1 battery. Everything is run off the 12 volt battery on the bucket. The other benefit of this is you can control all the electronics of the machine without needing to start the engine. (Chute, lights, tracks) Just need to put the key in the on position.


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## Sam Am I (Oct 28, 2021)

Nan_wpg said:


> Is there some type of over ride for the chute if a motor fails? I guess you can man handle it if need be.


Not on my GLE there is no overide, but FWIW my TB there is. Nope, manhandling the chute in the GLE would break the gears inside I feel



Nan_wpg said:


> The kraken has a starter battery. And it still has an EFI battery. Why not run a single battery?
> seeing all the wiring and harnesses makes me nervous. All that snow blowing, and swirling. Water + electricity.


Hmmmmm, lets see......



JJG723 said:


> The kraken only has 1 battery. Everything is run off the 12 volt battery on the bucket. The other benefit of this is you can control all the electronics of the machine without needing to start the engine. (Chute, lights, tracks) Just need to put the key in the on position.


You have no NiMH 7.2V battery under the dash?


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## JJG723 (Mar 7, 2015)

Sam Am I said:


> Not on my GLE there is no overide, but FWIW my TB there is. Nope, manhandling the chute in the GLE would break the gears inside I feel
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That is correct.


----------



## jr27236 (Feb 19, 2021)

JJG723 said:


> That is correct.


So that just proves the Fuel pump in these can run at 12V. I. Sure all those parts are the same (fuel pump, TB, ECU)


----------



## Sam Am I (Oct 28, 2021)

JJG723 said:


> That is correct.


Hmmmm



jr27236 said:


> So that just proves the Fuel pump in these can run at 12V. I. Sure all those parts are the same (fuel pump, TB, ECU)


EXACTLY where my mind was going and as you've stated "If the ECU, FI, TB, Fuel Pump, Stator are the same parts"(but maybe under different part #'s, BUT are still the same parts).........Then Ariens just runs 12V units(Kraken, Mountaineer) on the same ECU's, and those units w/o 12V, (The NiMH 7.2V only unit, my GLE, etc) have a dedicated rectified/regulated tap off the SAME ECU's that can charge up the 7.2V NiMH's up to say 8.3V(I measured this) from the SAME 60W stator that can put out approx 13Vp @ 3400RPM(I measured this)...

AND.... As you've mentioned and as we're discussing......the FI, TB AND Fuel Pump are perhaps all the same part running at both 13.3V(12V engine not running) and 8.3V (7.2V engine not running)

AND....As you mentioned, If the fuel pump motor is spec'd at 12V, does this same pump motor also spec'd out properly at 7.2V? Hmmmm, I'm lucky so far I guess...Again, I only have 10hrs on mine. But their are grumbling's for others who's fuel pumps are "failing".....<<<<Crossing Fingers>>>>

I know when my battery wasn't really all that low (maybe 6.8V if I recall correctly when i measured it), my machine sure went in the toilet fast(FI spitting out gas so much so, it was dripping and puddling on tire/floor, TB servo acting freaking possessed) .........This MIGHT imply running 7.2V(and only a drop of apprx 0.4V) is on a VERY hairy edge on NOT!!!

Perhaps if Ariens issues a fuel pump "revision" part # specific for these motors in the next few months (if not already) on our latest 7.2V EFI's, we'll have our answer? I see they've made some changes to the dash from 2021 to 2022 on the GLE's, wouldn't surprise me if there are some changes "discretely" made under the hood too.

And by all rights they can make changes w/o notice.........Seems though, if there was a "design flaw", where there were several several failing(a trend), is it up to us the consumer to find it? and also report it untill the reluctant dealers do something for us? Or would a reputable company who is aware of said "issue", write us each a note telling us there's been a " small miscalculation"?

IDK, during these "uncertain times", nobody seems accountable for much anymore, your guess is a good as mine.


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## JJG723 (Mar 7, 2015)

Sam Am I said:


> Hmmmm
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have heard people mention about the sounds the EFI makes at start up. I'm going to link a video below of the Kraken at a cold start that I took last winter. When I start the machine I always put the key in the on position, wait a second, and then turn it to start until it fires off. The only sound it ever makes before it starts is the servo motor adjusting the throttle body plate. Also worth noting is if it is cold enough outside the engine will maintain a high idle until it warms up. For example you can have the throttle position set to low idle, 1800 RPM. But when the engine starts it will run 2500 to 3200 RPM depending on the conditions of the ambient temperature. You can try adjusting the speed but it doesn't do anything. It will maintain this high idle for 15 to 20 seconds and then you'll hear the speed coming down to whatever the throttle is set at which is low idle in my case. But also that is not demonstrated in this following video as it wasn't cold enough for that to happen. If you listen closely you'll hear the servo motor and that's all before the engine starts.


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## tabora (Mar 1, 2017)

jr27236 said:


> So that just proves the Fuel pump in these can run at 12V.


Not necessarily, if there's a regulator that outputs the lower voltage... Not saying there is such a thing, just saying that the above statement was not a "proof". My car has regulators that produce 5V and 7.2V from 12ish volts.


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## jr27236 (Feb 19, 2021)

tabora said:


> Not necessarily, if there's a regulator that outputs the lower voltage... Not saying there is such a thing, just saying that the above statement was not a "proof". My car has regulators that produce 5V and 7.2V from 12ish volts.


Hmmm. Well looks like we would need a read of the voltage on the Kraken at the pump.


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## Sam Am I (Oct 28, 2021)

jr27236 said:


> Hmmm. Well looks like we would need a read of the voltage on the Kraken at the pump.


If it's wired like my GLE (giving odds it is......BUT have to check absolutes, someone want to give me their Kraken?), it's a low side PWM driven(via the ECU) pump/motor that has its high side hard tied to the 12V lead acid batt (that gets up to approx 13.5V running) through a fuse.........Mine is the same cept the high side hard ties to the 7.2V NiHM battery (that gets up to approx 8.3V running)...............

Given that and in my mind, my real question is is the pump/motor the exact same for the GLE verses the Kraken? 7.2V machine verses 12V machine.....


----------



## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

Sam Am I said:


> Hmmmm
> 
> 
> 
> ...


6.8 volts on a 6 cell NIMH is basically dead . . . 1.2v per cell is nominal, and more like 1.4 off charge, so a fresh off the charger pack can read more like 8.4 . . . slow drop in use to 7.2, and then drops like a rock . . .


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## Sam Am I (Oct 28, 2021)

tadawson said:


> 6.8 volts on a 6 cell NIMH is basically dead . . . 1.2v per cell is nominal, and more like 1.4 off charge, so a fresh off the charger pack can read more like 8.4 . . . slow drop in use to 7.2, and then drops like a rock . . .


It was definitely not going anywhere. I feel the designs compliance is too small still and there just is not enough operating overhead there, it's just not so robust/forgiving in that area, but I guess that would be the nature of the beast with that type of discharge curve running your electronics.........Exacerbating that though and as mentioned above, I feel that if those same guts are also being ran at 12V, to me then in certain operating margins, the 7.2V machines components most likely are at/near the very very lower edge, the lowest end of an already small compliance perhaps.

It works, then it doesn't, we're perhaps running on a very fine edge and.........POOF!!The pump thing might be a reflection of just this, not sure yet. I however I'm glad I learn't my lesson early on and continue reading there are others that continue to join our club as well. It's a good machine, I'm keeping mine, it has a personality that is maybe just finicky is all.


----------



## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

Sam Am I said:


> It was definitely not going anywhere. I feel the designs compliance is too small still and there just is not enough operating overhead there, it's just not so robust/forgiving in that area, but I guess that would be the nature of the beast with that type of discharge curve running your electronics.........Exacerbating that though and as mentioned above, I feel that if those same guts are also being ran at 12V, to me then in certain operating margins, the 7.2V machines components most likely are at/near the very very lower edge, the lowest end of an already small compliance perhaps.
> 
> It works, then it doesn't, we're perhaps running on a very fine edge and.........POOF!!The pump thing might be a reflection of just this, not sure yet. I however I'm glad I learn't my lesson early on and continue reading there are others that continue to join our club as well. It's a good machine, I'm keeping mine, it has a personality that is maybe just finicky is all.


I just cannot agree that failure to maintain a charge on the battery is a design flaw . . . and for what it's worth, most rechargeable cells have that steep dropoff characteristic, regardless lf what the chemistry is. It's not a "design margin" error to have a dead battery - it's operator error, plain and simple . . . (these days, it seems that a lot of folks have forgotten how to read equipment manual, making them a problem looking for a place to happen!)


----------



## Sam Am I (Oct 28, 2021)

tadawson said:


> I just cannot agree that failure to maintain a charge on the battery is a design flaw . . . and for what it's worth, most rechargeable cells have that steep dropoff characteristic, regardless lf what the chemistry is. It's not a "design margin" error to have a dead battery - it's operator error, plain and simple . . . (these days, it seems that a lot of folks have forgotten how to read equipment manual, making them a problem looking for a place to happen!)


LOL....Well, we can agree to disagree then, BUT I do agree that user error of letting a battery go dead isn't a design flaw(unless it is caused by poorly spec'd battery connector), not by any stretch. However my point being, having a machine that can still more then likely start AND do this without spitting gas all over the floor when its 12.5V battery is at 10.5V (considered dead/0 SOC) because it's design has allowed for its hardware/firmware to remain running in more or less 100% functionally proper states verses a machine that could catch the place on fire when it's 7.5V battery is 6.8V(considered dead/0 SOC).......Seems to me running that close to a/the hairy edge just isn't a best practice design.


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

Sam Am I said:


> LOL....Well, we can agree to disagree then, BUT I do agree that user error of letting a battery go dead isn't a design flaw(unless it is caused by poorly spec'd battery connector), not by any stretch. However my point being, having a machine that can still more then likely start AND do this without spitting gas all over the floor when its 12.5V battery is at 10.5V (considered dead/0 SOC) because it's design has allowed for its hardware/firmware to remain running in more or less 100% functionally proper states verses a machine that could catch the place on fire when it's 7.5V battery is 6.8V(considered dead/0 SOC).......Seems to me running that close to a/the hairy edge just isn't a best practice design.


It certainly would have been nice if it wasn't such a PITA to use the charger. Couple that with folks that refuse to read documentation, and not a good situation. I tend to hold to the opinion that dumbing down equipment simply because uses are too lazy to read is a mistake, but I certainly do not speak for all . . .


----------



## Sam Am I (Oct 28, 2021)

Is it "dumbing down"? or designing with some forethought, best practice and acknowledging your design might not be all that stable? Perhaps they're one in the same? But I know I don't design that way, but that's just me and no, I can't speak for everyone either.


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## jr27236 (Feb 19, 2021)

My dealer stated to me the first time this issue arose that my battery was "defective" was total BS. I checked it and charged it NUMEROUS times prior to loading the behemoth into my truck. The batteries they use can easily be upgraded with a better battery used in the hobby market , although it's not going to improve the issue of the pump binding up. Funny that Generac now makes fuel injected generator and the issue with there fuel pump is just as problematic as Ariens. But as you guys stated the charging design is actually silly. They could have easily made a dash charging port that can easily be plugged in and maybe even a battery charge check button with a LED bar showing the battery status. Simple, cheap and people would love that.


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## Sam Am I (Oct 28, 2021)

jr27236 said:


> They could have easily made a dash charging port that can easily be plugged in and maybe even a battery charge check button with a LED bar showing the battery status. Simple, cheap and people would love that.


Yes, under dash diving (which I just had to do a week or so ago) the get to this connector, un-plugging it to re-plug in a wall transformer then reverses this is a bit of a PITA as* tadawson *mentioned, once or twice a year during storage isn't going to kill me, BUT it would be very easy to add something like *THIS* to the dash and permanently wire the dumb thing in and call it a Tesla. Thinking Ariens will probably do this at some point anyway, AND switch to a 12V NiMH.......LOL


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## tabora (Mar 1, 2017)

On my Honda mower, the small SLA starting battery was a PITA to keep charged with the mower in the unpowered shed at the back of the property. The whole control panel required removal in order to pull out the battery to charge it remotely. So I removed it and replaced it with a 3D printed socket for a 12V Lithium Ion battery from one of my power tools. Problem solved...


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## Tony-chicago (Feb 10, 2021)

Tabora ftw

As usual


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## Sam Am I (Oct 28, 2021)

Sam Am I said:


> A bit off topic...........
> 
> I've mod'd it a bit here and there, BUT another mod I think I want AND if I get bored enough this winter, I'll add a 12V electric start to it..........Thinking for the battery, want to try a Dewalt 5ah 12V Lithium that slides into a Dewalt factory saddle mounted on the machine somewheres non-descript.........Not sure on lithium discharge rates (depends on type of lithium, poly or not Dewalt uses, need research) and current draw of Areins 12V starters(more research). BUT, If I can get a decent discharge rate of say around 10C for a few seconds around -5 F, it might just work.. Just pop on a pre-charged battery from the* wall of charge* and good to go, errrr, start......Make it so the GF has a easier time if she wants to run it.
> 
> And if I get real real bored and it works well, design a charger that adapts the Ariens charge system to Dewalt start batt so the battery can just live/charge from the blower, but still can pop off and be readily replaced.


^^^^^^This^^^^^^



tabora said:


> On my Honda mower, the small SLA starting battery was a PITA to keep charged with the mower in the unpowered shed at the back of the property. The whole control panel required removal in order to pull out the battery to charge it remotely. So I removed it and replaced it with a 3D printed socket for a 12V Lithium Ion battery from one of my power tools. Problem solved...


^^^^^^Plus This^^^^^^

Any idea of roughly the amp draw the Honda's starter is when she's cranking? Is it a gear reduction type? AND, if you don't mind also sharing the ah rating and chem type of your Li batt that you've replaced the SLA battery with? Does it still start okay? You know, crank speedy still? What's roughly the lowest temp you've had it cranking? Any lags, grunt or groans at low temps?? Anything get hot? Details, details....lol


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## tabora (Mar 1, 2017)

Sam Am I said:


> Any idea of roughly the amp draw the Honda's starter is when she's cranking?


I don't know for sure, but the SLA battery was 2.9Ah...










Sam Am I said:


> Is it a gear reduction type?


No, direct drive, I think? Could have a sun gear arrangement in there, though; nope, just checked - direct drive.











Sam Am I said:


> AND, if you don't mind also sharing the ah rating and chem type of your Li batt that you've replaced the SLA battery with?


They are Rigid 12V Max batteries; I have 2Ah and 4Ah batteries.

Here's what the startup was like with the 2.9Ah SLA... About 8A draw indicated on the meter, but likely more?


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## Sam Am I (Oct 28, 2021)

tabora said:


> They are Rigid 12V Max batteries; I have 2Ah and 4Ah batteries.
> 
> Here's what the startup was like with the 2.9Ah SLA... About 8A draw indicated on the meter, but likely more?


Is the startup with the Rigid Li Batt's the same'ish?......That's the real meat in the sandwich here I'm after as I'm wanting a similar setup in that I'm eye'ing a 12V 5ah Dewalt Li batt with a Ariens(kraken/mountaineering)12V starter on my GLE.


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## Sam Am I (Oct 28, 2021)

jr27236 said:


> So that just proves the Fuel pump in these can run at 12V. I. Sure all those parts are the same (fuel pump, TB, ECU)


BTW was doing a tad bit of research for my proposed 120V to 12V starter conversion and noticed.....According to jack's, the 12V ONLY EFI motor....



https://www.jackssmallengines.com/jacks-parts-lookup/manufacturer/ariens/engines/08201241-lct-efi-420cc-12v/engine-08201241



uses the same fuel pump as the 7.2V ONLY motor.....



https://www.jackssmallengines.com/jacks-parts-lookup/manufacturer/ariens/engines/08201218-ax-efi420cc-120v-60w/engine-08201218



which also uses the same fuel pump as the 7.2V ONLY motor....



https://www.jackssmallengines.com/jacks-parts-lookup/manufacturer/ariens/engines/08201217-efi-369cc/engine-08201217



which also uses the same fuel pump as the 7.2V ONLY motor....



https://www.jackssmallengines.com/jacks-parts-lookup/manufacturer/ariens/engines/08201216-efi-306cc/engine-08201216



So I guess that answers that, 3 different cc 7.2V only EFI engines using the same fuel pump as a 12V only EFI.......Just have a 12V EFI owner measure the high side (positive terminal) of his fuel pump w the key on, if it's 12V(giving odds it is if it's wired like my GLE), you have your proof.....Ariens/LCT uses the same pump for both types running it w 12V and 7.2V........Is this a bad thing? IDK yet. Anyone have the manu's spec on this pump? It's Chinese according to the box it comes in, that's all I got.


----------



## Town (Jan 31, 2015)

Sam Am I said:


> BTW was doing a tad bit of research for my proposed 120V to 12V starter conversion.....According to jack's, the 12V ONLY EFI motor....
> .........


I have the 12 volt starter on my 2022 Pro 28 RapidTrak carb model 926084. My dealer swapped the 120 volt starter for the 12 volt starter without charge. He added the battery platform for the 2022 model since the bucket is shaped differently to earlier models, and set-up the electrics as a stand alone system. It works very well and charging with a maintainer charger is easy with alligator clips to connect to starter connections from the battery.

For this coming season it has a new 330 CCA sealed AGM battery and starter switch and Ariens battery cover.


----------



## Sam Am I (Oct 28, 2021)

Town said:


> I have the 12 volt starter on my 2022 Pro 28 RapidTrak carb model 926084. My dealer swapped the 120 volt starter for the 12 volt starter without charge. He added the battery platform for the 2022 model since the bucket is shaped differently to earlier models, and set-up the electrics as a stand alone system. It works very well and charging with a maintainer charger is easy with alligator clips to connect to starter connections from the battery.
> 
> For this coming season it has a new 330 CCA sealed AGM battery and starter switch and Ariens battery cover.


Nice custom setup sounds, your going to love the electric chute/deflector if you haven't already used one, I've never used a hand cranker so I have no reference of that, but I sure can't see using one since both(TB and Ariens) my machines use lectric's and I've had 100% reliability with both mau's so far.......Both good hardy designs.

But back to the 12V conversion.......I just like the thought and ease of push button start w/o a 120V cord, like if I or the GF shuts off at EOD or something when a little shovel work is needed etc(where she's hesitant to shut it off), then SNIP SNAP!! She starts with a push of a button!!! Not that it starts hard or anything, just convenience is all, but it is a bit hard for the GF to get started I noticed, a 420 engine might be a bit of a bear too!!........I'm going to attempt to lose the biggie AGM/SLA battery sitting out on the bucket and TRY to use a nondescript Li battery that can pop in and out it's mount seat BUT can also more or less stay stationary since it can also charge from the system, we'll see I reckon.


----------



## jr27236 (Feb 19, 2021)

Sam Am I said:


> BTW was doing a tad bit of research for my proposed 120V to 12V starter conversion and noticed.....According to jack's, the 12V ONLY EFI motor....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So I guess @JJG723 time to crack the Kraken open LOL


----------



## Town (Jan 31, 2015)

Sam Am I said:


> Nice setup sounds, your going to love the electric chute/deflector if you haven't already used one.
> 
> I just like the thought push button start w/o a 120V cord, like if I or the GF shuts off at EOD or something when a little shovel work is needed etc, then SNIP SNAP!! She starts with a push of a button!!! Not that it starts hard or anything, just convenience is all, but it is a bit hard for the GF to get started I noticed........I'm going to attempt to lose the biggie AGM/SLA battery sitting out on the bucket and TRY to use a nondescript Li battery that can pop in and out it's mount seat BUT can also more or less stay stationary since it can also charge from the system.


There is an advantage to the battery attached to the bucket in weight distribution. I used my Pro with and without the 12 volt starter and battery for the first month or so last season. In wheel mode the bucket is too light and lifts in some circumstances with snow, the battery solves the lifting and gives perfect balance for me. In locked track mode the bucket is locked down and is great regardless of snow conditions. I don't do slow, so that may affect the amount of lifting I see.

In 2015 I purchased the Platinum because the Pro was way too light for me. RapidTrak has solved half the problem of poor balance (for me) and the battery solved the other half. I don't notice the extra weight.


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## JJG723 (Mar 7, 2015)

jr27236 said:


> So I guess @JJG723 time to crack the Kraken open LOL


I've had the battery off the machine and connected to a battery minder since mid-April. Sometime next month I'll hook it back up and do the preseason maintenance. But first things first, let's see if it starts 😁


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## tabora (Mar 1, 2017)

Sam Am I said:


> TRY to use a nondescript Li battery that can pop in and out it's mount seat BUT can also more or less stay stationary since it can also charge from the system, we'll see I reckon.


Note that Li battery charging is significantly different than SLA and others. I disconnected the charging coil on my mower so that it wouldn't attempt to charge my Rigid Lithium Ion battery, since there's no state-of-charge or thermal monitoring.








Lithium-Ion State of Charge (SoC) measurement - Coulomb Counter method


There are several ways to get Lithium-Ion State of Charge (SoC) measurement or Depth of Discharge (DoD) of a battery. Main methods are SoC estimation using Open Circuit Voltage Method (OCV) and SoC estimation using Coulomb Counting method. Powertech provides accurate coulomb counter devices for...




www.lithium-battery-factory.com


----------



## Sam Am I (Oct 28, 2021)

tabora said:


> Note that Li battery charging is significantly different than SLA and others. I disconnected the charging coil on my mower so that it wouldn't attempt to charge my Rigid Lithium Ion battery, since there's no state-of-charge or thermal monitoring.


Yes and duly noted, I have my solution in hand..........Dewalt's very own DC to DC Li Charger with all the goodies built in, I'll grab the guts for the charge side of the batt and then use the beefed up high current output terminals (like a tool would use) to the starter/dis-chargre side........... So the "smart charge guts" go between the Alt which of course I've already added a rec/reg/filter (12v DC) and the Dewalt 5ah Li Battery.









12V MAX* - 20V MAX* Lithium Ion Vehicle Battery Charger | DEWALT


The DCB119 12V MAX* - 20V MAX* Lithium Ion Vehicle Battery Charger allows professionals to charge their battery on the way to the job to minimize down-time. Charges for less than an hour and ...




www.dewalt.com


----------



## jr27236 (Feb 19, 2021)

JJG723 said:


> I've had the battery off the machine and connected to a battery minder since mid-April. Sometime next month I'll hook it back up and do the preseason maintenance. But first things first, let's see if it starts


LOL so true unfortunately


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## Sam Am I (Oct 28, 2021)

Town said:


> There is an advantage to the battery attached to the bucket in weight distribution. I used my Pro with and without the 12 volt starter and battery for the first month or so last season. In wheel mode the bucket is too light and lifts in some circumstances with snow, the battery solves the lifting and gives perfect balance for me. In locked track mode the bucket is locked down and is great regardless of snow conditions. I don't do slow, so that may affect the amount of lifting I see.
> 
> In 2015 I purchased the Platinum because the Pro was way too light for me. RapidTrak has solved half the problem of poor balance (for me) and the battery solved the other half. I don't notice the extra weight.


Yup, I had to add the Ariens 10# weight bar in my bucket........For me, the stock GLE was a bit too nose light.

I'm not hell bent on NOT having a SLA/AGM batt out front, I might have to add it anyway and remove the weight bar, not sure. Just thought I'd try something a bit different I suppose before I go to AGM/SLA........ Thought perhaps I'd start w/o a onboard Li charger and just use a pop on/off pre-charged Li battery from the wall charger to see if the Li would do okay...Baby steps/proof of concept if you will...........The Li will only be for starting, the lights, hand warmers, electric chute etc, will still run stock'ish powered by alt's side of things (Alt's stock DC and AC outs PLUS my rec/filter/reg'd DC).

Since I'm first testing very basic, it made sense not to mount a AGM/SLA battery platform on the bucket just quite yet.........If the Li performs okay, I'll then add the onboard charger and keep the bucket bar in. If not, I'll go AGM/SLA and move some of the extra DC loads (lights, remote start, GPS nav and such) over to the battery side of things.

Either way, I'm upgrading to the 420's 250W stator and flywheel since I'm going from the 120V to the 420's 12V starter, thought why not, I need more wiggle room anyway!............I'm pretty sure the LCT 12V EFI 420's 250W stuff will slide into my LCT 7.2V EFI 369 60W........Only thing not too sure about is the crank shaft dia, could be SOL there, parts are on way, will see soon enough.


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## Sam Am I (Oct 28, 2021)

@tabora

This is so far off topic, BUT I can get it to fit...........The GF and I are flying into Portland and staying up in the Bangor area in 3 weeks........We're looking for pre-snow snow blower sales(NOT), perhaps we'll see those Lobster colored units around........I've noted these area's might be in your haunts. Any sites that are "have to look/see"? or not to see/skip?


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## tabora (Mar 1, 2017)

Sam Am I said:


> I've noted these area's might be in your haunts.


I can usually be found in this triangle; not near Bermuda but it will do...









Cape Elizabeth, ME ---- Keoka Lake, Waterford, ME ---- Tidepool, Vinalhaven, ME


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## Sam Am I (Oct 28, 2021)

tabora said:


> Cape Elizabeth, ME ---- Keoka Lake, Waterford, ME ---- Tidepool, Vinalhaven, ME


Very nice.......Excited to see the right side again, never got that far north, so this will be a all new adventure. Thx for the idea's, very much appreciated.


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## tabora (Mar 1, 2017)

Sam Am I said:


> Any sites that are "have to look/see"? or not to see/skip?


If you're going to Bangor, head down to Bar Harbor and Acadia National Park. Also, go to the Penobscot Narrows Bridge Observatory and then head out to Stonington over the Deer Isle Bridge. Portland Headlight pictured above is at the end of my street. Take an island tour on Casco Bay Lines in Portland. Lots of other possibilities!


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## Sam Am I (Oct 28, 2021)

tabora said:


> If you're going to Bangor, head down to Bar Harbor and Acadia National Park. Also, go to the Penobscot Narrows Bridge Observatory and then head out to Stonington over the Deer Isle Bridge. Portland Headlight pictured above is at the end of my street. Take an island tour on Casco Bay Lines in Portland. Lots of other possibilities!



Got it! All very good stuff thank you very much, I was a bit lost and this helps a ton!! Portland Headlight is waaaay cool!! With a few *Lobster food trucks around I see* too?....Geeesh, Lobster Rolls on wheels!

We're also going just a tad north too, up to Lincoln for perhaps a half day trip or something, might be a good sales on some blowers there too!! Ya never know........Looks like a quaint little town to have a look around in.


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## tabora (Mar 1, 2017)

Sam Am I said:


> up to Lincoln for perhaps a half day trip


That's a hike from here! My nephew lives near there in Howland and it's about a 3 hour drive when all goes well.


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

Sam Am I said:


> Yup, I had to add the Ariens 10# weight bar in my bucket........For me, the stock GLE was a bit too nose light.
> 
> I'm not hell bent on NOT having a SLA/AGM batt out front, I might have to add it anyway and remove the weight bar, not sure. Just thought I'd try something a bit different I suppose before I go to AGM/SLA........ Thought perhaps I'd start w/o a onboard Li charger and just use a pop on/off pre-charged Li battery from the wall charger to see if the Li would do okay...Baby steps/proof of concept if you will...........The Li will only be for starting, the lights, hand warmers, electric chute etc, will still run stock'ish powered by alt's side of things (Alt's stock DC and AC outs PLUS my rec/filter/reg'd DC).
> 
> ...


Just be sure to evaluate your choices for the impact of cold - some technologies hold up better than others, and that may be a factor in why Ariens has been using Lead-Acid and NiMh and not Lithium . . . not sure, but do know that it would stink to get it wrong . . .


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## tabora (Mar 1, 2017)

tadawson said:


> Just be sure to evaluate your choices for the impact of cold - some technologies hold up better than others, and that may be a factor in why Ariens has been using Lead-Acid and NiMh and not Lithium


Agreed! The best practice for Lithium batteries is to charge and store them in a basement or other climate-controlled area. You should only take them out into cold weather to immediately use them, and then return them to a warm environment for immediate recharging. Obviously, this requires an easily removable battery unless the garage is heated.

From the Greenworks manual:

_Cold Weather Operation: Lithium Ion batteries can be safely used from temperatures ranging from -17 degrees to 45 degrees Celsius. _
_NOTE: Do not store or charge battery outside. Battery must be charged and stored indoors prior to use of the snow thrower._
_Battery may not properly start if it’s temperatures is -17˚C or lower. If unit does not start remove battery from snow thrower. Place battery on charger and allow to charge for 10 minutes to allow battery to warm. Remove from charger and install in Snow thrower for use._


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## Sam Am I (Oct 28, 2021)

tabora said:


> Agreed! The best practice for Lithium batteries is to charge and store them in a basement or other climate-controlled area. You should only take them out into cold weather to immediately use them, and then return them to a warm environment for immediate recharging. Obviously, this requires an easily removable battery unless the garage is heated.
> 
> From the Greenworks manual:
> 
> ...


Very good Info and yup, order of business or bust are..........

1) Are discharge rates of Dewalt's largest(5ah?)12V Li(LFP,LCO,LMO,NMC,NCA,LTO -18650, 21700, ...?) enough([email protected]?, [email protected]?) to crank Ariens 12V (reduction geared type I think, 50A loaded? 100A loaded? It's in the mail) loaded with cold 369cc engine w/o melt down/thermal limit(BMS)?..........If not, dead duck, go acid!!! If so, see #2.

2) For start only.......Use/test a Dewalt native tool mount setup so tested in #1 Li battery's (several so as to alternate) have a high enough current discharge path for starter draw while using mount AND can also then be easily removed and charged on their own smart charger in proper enviro's, but still transition outside with machine to do work......If not, dead duck, go acid!!! If so, see #3.

3) For onboard charging and start.......Mount/transition Dewalts native DC-DC smart charger as on-board (must also have high current discharge path for starting, see #2 testing) to blower. Again, but now in field running on-board DC-DC, native smart charger senses temps and prevents charging *( < 1 degree F?) when temp is too low, BUT can also automatically begin to charge when blower is running (Alt = 13.5Vp @250W(in mail) >>> full wave bridge rec(less ripple then halfwave) >>>> Cap filter >>> 12A CC CV- DC buck reg, 5.3V-32V to 1.2 -32V set @ 12V Vout) AND when temp is at of above proper temp *(> 1 degree F?) ..........If not, dead duck, go acid!!! Or go back to #2.

* Dewalt's chargers sense and auto start/stop based on their factory set charge temp points (both internal to batt and external to enviro) by default for their specific battery's.


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## Sam Am I (Oct 28, 2021)

tadawson said:


> Not too bad . . . digital with metal gears . . . and the digitals typically use optical encoders and are quite precise. Gear sets and cases available, so some level of serviceability is possible. (And, do I win a prize? I think I speculated this to be an RC part 2 years or so when they first came out . . .)





Sam Am I said:


> I'll pop it open and get us a peek when it arrives, not having to use a mechanical wiper would definitely be an advantage with optical, agreed.



*POT!*......Measures 4.7K

Looks a bit, ummm, not too high end.....Perhaps a $2 or $3 pot IMO. Who knows the spec, but perhaps 100,000 rotation type, not sure on vib spec or manu or markings. But if mine goes out, I have a spare now...lol.

They're using a *PIC16F616* micro controller for processing(probably just the PWM code and "anti lock")........If they haven't locked(set the "protect fuse") the chip, the code can be uploaded if need be....I haven't hooked up it up to check, easy peasy to check though.


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

Not sure why you would want the code on a stock servo, but . . .


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## Sam Am I (Oct 28, 2021)

tadawson said:


> Not sure why you would want the code on a stock servo, but . . .


Manipulate drive freq, duty cycle of PWM, limits etc, relates to speed and resolution of positioning.....Been there, done that using the same PIC quiescently enough.


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

I can't imagine any value in doing that in this application, but OK . . . Myself, I'd be more inclined to move to a better part first . . .


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## Sam Am I (Oct 28, 2021)

Well okay then.......


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

Unlike planes and helicopters, the inherent lag in response due to flow in the intake will likely negate any speed improvements in the servo, and likely they would also result in more servo wear. In this application, it would seem that smooth and moderately damped movements would be best.


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## Sam Am I (Oct 28, 2021)

tadawson said:


> Unlike planes and helicopters, the inherent lag in response due to flow in the intake will likely negate any speed improvements in the servo, and likely they would also result in more servo wear. In this application, it would seem that smooth and moderately damped movements would be best.


Yeah, sure, sounds good.........But if the servo's code was needed, you know, for whatever reason, good, bad or indifferent, it might be up-loadable if the chip's unlocked. Not sure there was a need to debate why or why not?......But that's fine too I guess....You asked


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## Toon (May 11, 2021)

Not at all familiar with EFI but I am following this thread with interest, so I have a couple of questions.
1) Is the servo you're talking about for throttle position or fuel pump speed regulation?
2) Wouldn't it make sense to develop a system that runs off of the on-board 12V lead acid battery so that a separate charging system, LION temperature shortcomings and a separate charging system are not required?
I have only dealt with industrial servo positioning systems, but I know incoming voltage regulation is important. However, a Dc to Dc converter should be able to easily provide a stable 7.2 volts from the on board 12V starting battery, even with the RPM changes of the gas motor.


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## Toon (May 11, 2021)




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## tabora (Mar 1, 2017)

Toon said:


> View attachment 198715


Oh, those Brits (or Aussies or Kiwis???) - Dry humour.


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## Sam Am I (Oct 28, 2021)

Toon said:


> Not at all familiar with EFI but I am following this thread with interest, so I have a couple of questions.
> 1) Is the servo you're talking about for throttle position or fuel pump speed regulation?


Throttle position



Toon said:


> 2) Wouldn't it make sense to develop a system that runs off of the on-board 12V lead acid battery so that a separate charging system, LION temperature shortcomings and a separate charging system are not required?


Kraken/Mountaineer and perhaps other EFI models(others here know the entire list, I don't sry) only use a 12V lead acid to run the ECU(which in-turns runs peripherals)......Yes.

Others, like my GLE EFI etc,, use a 7.2V NiMH to run the ECU(which in-turn runs peripherals), not sure if Ariens ever used Li-ion, don't think so though. Although
*tabora* mentioned Green Machine back a few posts or so was running Li-ion, by their op instructions sounds like they are.

I'm experimenting using a Li batt just for starting only, once up and running, my GLE (and other 7.2V EFI models) runs off the alt directly, but of course rec/filter/reg'd....See below.



Toon said:


> I have only dealt with industrial servo positioning systems, but I know incoming voltage regulation is important. However, a Dc to Dc converter should be able to easily provide a stable 7.2 volts from the on board 12V starting battery, even with the RPM changes of the gas motor.


Yes..........So the ECU has on-board regulators for it's own logic (3.3V/3.5V/5V most likely, not un-potted it ...YET to know forsure) controllers and also other output feeds like direct from the batt feed through to the fuel pump high side where it's low side drive signal(just on or off I think). Also sensor sigs, etc all go out to some off board peripherals.

One other feed out on the ECU that is most likely also a reg'd is 6V rail voltage to supply the 6V throttle servo's B+ (1 of 3 in its 3 wire connector, 2 = sig and 3 = grd). BUT what's NOT reg'd (on my EFI anyway) and is direct feed though mention above, is the power from the batt that is ran to the high side the fuel pump. Then to turn the pump on or off, Ariens just fully grounds/un-grounds the pump's low side(-) with a simple transistor switch controlled by the ECU logic.

The 12V supply lead acid units (Kraken/Mountaineer/etc) I think are totally fine because the regulators and fuel pump all have plenty of headroom.......I think where a issue (and your idea relates) might be is when a 6V reg'd peripheral is driven by the 7.2V supply, the overhead on that regulator is only 1.2V AND can drop out easier as marginal overhead voltage can become more effected when smaller changes in supply voltage happen, this certainly can become more of a factor.

So yes, if one still had the _*current available_ from said 7.2V NiMH and used a "boost" type DC-DC converter where its inputs could vary within some limits and its output was set/regulated to say 12V, then yes, driving the ECU with a higher stable voltage where the NiMH could vary say 8.6V down to 6.8V all while the DC-DC boosted 12V output to the ECU was rock solid 12V, sure, I think that would be more stable..........BUT

I think though(and as others have said), if one makes sure the NiMH battery on the 7.2V EFI's is kept charged properly/follow the manu's instructions, the ECU and servo etc are all fine(ran in a finer edge, but are fine none the less). Having this smaller overhead for what I most likely would assume was being used is "low overhead" regulators that can run with appox. 1V of overhead.......With that then, a input of 7.2V and out @ 6V(servo), 5V,3.5V,3.3V logic is sufficient.

HOWEVER, the fuel pump might be more the issue IMO (listen to others reports) then anything else because the high side (+) of the fuel pump(again, mentioned above) is powered by no more then the value of the NIMH, so it might be hanging up even when the NIHM if at a nominal voltage of 7.2V. I noted that under the initial loads where the key just turned on and everything is booting up, even the fully charged nominal 7.2V is drooping, this drop in supply voltage(fuel pumps high side) COULD cause a "not spec'd at 12V" pump to hang..........Not sure yet, i don't have a spec on the motor and crossing my fingers....So far so good though.

*With a low voltage comes limited current....There's no free lunch.


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## Toon (May 11, 2021)

_I think though(and as others have said), if one makes sure the NiMH battery on the 7.2V EFI's is kept charged properly/follow the manu's instructions, the ECU and servo etc are all fine(ran in a finer edge, but are fine none the less), the head room for "low overhead" regulators running with a input of 7.2V and out @ 6V(servo), 5V,3.5V,3.3V logic is sufficient._

I guess I was wondering why a second battery is even necessary when a DC to DC convertor could easily handle the servo control requirements? Then you wouldn't need to separately charge a second battery.


_HOWEVER, the fuel pump might be more the issue IMO then anything else because its high side of the fuel pump(again, mentioned above) is powered by no more then the value of the NIMH, so it might be hanging up even when the NIHM if at a nominal voltage of 7.2V. I noted that under the initial loads where the key just turned on and everything is booting up, even the fully charged nominal 7.2V is drooping, this drop in supply voltage(fuel pumps high side) COULD cause a "not spec'd at 12V" pump to hang..........Not sure yet, crossing my fingers._

Couldn't the fuel pump source voltage be the 12VDC battery, and only require the servo control voltage to turn on the gate of the fuel pump on/off transistor?


_*With a low voltage comes limited current....There's no free lunch.
_
Actually, voltage and current are not necessarily tied together. These are handled separately in the design phase of the device. We had a 12VDC power supply that produced 24,000 amps.


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## Sam Am I (Oct 28, 2021)

Toon said:


> _I think though(and as others have said), if one makes sure the NiMH battery on the 7.2V EFI's is kept charged properly/follow the manu's instructions, the ECU and servo etc are all fine(ran in a finer edge, but are fine none the less), the head room for "low overhead" regulators running with a input of 7.2V and out @ 6V(servo), 5V,3.5V,3.3V logic is sufficient._
> 
> I guess I was wondering why a second battery is even necessary when a DC to DC convertor could easily handle the servo control requirements? Then you wouldn't need to separately charge a second battery.


There is only one battery for each model........7.2V EFI units use 1 NiMH and the 12V EFI units use 1 lead acid




Toon said:


> _HOWEVER, the fuel pump might be more the issue IMO then anything else because its high side of the fuel pump(again, mentioned above) is powered by no more then the value of the NIMH, so it might be hanging up even when the NIHM if at a nominal voltage of 7.2V. I noted that under the initial loads where the key just turned on and everything is booting up, even the fully charged nominal 7.2V is drooping, this drop in supply voltage(fuel pumps high side) COULD cause a "not spec'd at 12V" pump to hang..........Not sure yet, crossing my fingers._
> 
> 
> 
> ...


EDIT....... _"not spec'd at 12V", I meant  "not spec'd at_* 7.2V*_" apologies.......My editor needs a nap!! _

It is with 12V EFI units......The 7.2V EFI's don't have a 12V battery, only the 7.2V NiMH



Toon said:


> and only require the servo control voltage to turn on the gate of the fuel pump on/off transistor?


Not sure I follow



Toon said:


> _*With a low voltage comes limited current....There's no free lunch._
> 
> Actually, voltage and current are not necessarily tied together. These are handled separately in the design phase of the device. We had a 12VDC power supply that produced 24,000 amps.


Constant voltage and constant current power supplies are a bit of a different beast. Consider a fully charged 12V car batt verses a 1/2 charged 12V car batt.......The 1/2 charged batt can't supply the same current @ the same voltage for the same amount of time as the fully charged batt.


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

Toon said:


> Not at all familiar with EFI but I am following this thread with interest, so I have a couple of questions.
> 1) Is the servo you're talking about for throttle position or fuel pump speed regulation?
> 2) Wouldn't it make sense to develop a system that runs off of the on-board 12V lead acid battery so that a separate charging system, LION temperature shortcomings and a separate charging system are not required?
> I have only dealt with industrial servo positioning systems, but I know incoming voltage regulation is important. However, a Dc to Dc converter should be able to easily provide a stable 7.2 volts from the on board 12V starting battery, even with the RPM changes of the gas motor.


Throttle position - the fuel pump is purely on/off

There is no Li battery tech in this system, so not sure where that came from . . .and the system _DOES_ run from the 12v stator (regulates down and charges) already. No reason that a 12v wet cell could not be used, but then again, most blowers don't have a 12v battery (nor do they need one), so the 7.2NiMH for EFI staetup is a lower weight/lower maintenance alternative. Whether you charge 12v and regulate down, or charge 7.2v and regulate from there seems to make no difference as I see it. (Or did I miss something?) About the only thing I see that could be improved is charger access to the 7.2v, but considering that that is only needed in the off season, it doesn't seem to be that major of an issue (and charging without the ECU tied on _IS_ safer . . . a charger fail/overvolt can't damage electronics . . . ) Best solution might be a slightly better key switch . . . connects load in "on" and charge connector when in "off".


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## tabora (Mar 1, 2017)

Sam Am I said:


> AND, if you don't mind also sharing the ah rating and chem type of your Li batt that you've replaced the SLA battery with? Does it still start okay? You know, crank speedy still? What's roughly the lowest temp you've had it cranking? Any lags, grunt or groans at low temps?? Anything get hot? Details, details....lol





Sam Am I said:


> Is the startup with the Rigid Li Batt's the same'ish?


I actually have not used the Honda HR214 yet this year... Just the Toro zero turn and Greenworks trimmer. I went to pull it out of the shed and saw the 2.9Ah SLA battery sitting on the shelf. On a whim, I connected it to a meter and it was registering almost 13 volts.

I pulled apart the control panel and removed the LI socket and reinstalled the battery to try it. In the video below, it started up the mower pretty well, even after sitting on the shelf for a year without charging. Then I hooked the 4Ah Rigid battery back up, fresh out of the charger. Darned if the SLA doesn't seem to do a better job starting it up.

Bottom line, I've decided to get power to where the mower is stored and just keep the SLA on an OptiMate 4 maintainer.


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## Sam Am I (Oct 28, 2021)

tabora said:


> I actually have not used the Honda HR214 yet this year... Just the Toro zero turn and Greenworks trimmer. I went to pull it out of the shed and saw the 2.9Ah SLA battery sitting on the shelf. On a whim, I connected it to a meter and it was registering almost 13 volts.
> 
> I pulled apart the control panel and removed the LI socket and reinstalled the battery to try it. In the video below, it started up the mower pretty well, even after sitting on the shelf for a year without charging. Then I hooked the 4Ah Rigid battery back up, fresh out of the charger. Darned if the SLA doesn't seem to do a better job starting it up.
> 
> Bottom line, I've decided to get power to where the mower is stored and just keep the SLA on an OptiMate 4 maintainer.


Good info, thank you..........If both battery's are in decent shape and we can somewhat say "all things being equal" including wire gauge, discharge path ampacity, etc, having a 2.9AH SLA battery start it easier then the 4AH Li battery, think we're dealing with the internal resistance of the Li-ion being much higher then that of the SLA batt sounds

Rule of thumb @ normal temp etc, for lead acid is around 3.0mΩ as where the rule of thumb for Li-ion is around 320mΩ..........This might be a deal breaker, hmmmm.

Well, I have the Ariens 12V starter in the mail, It should be here next week and I'll get the works on the bench and test a few things hopefully before I am over your way.......Thanks again, could really tell the difference, BUT she started with the Li-ion!!......Pretty cool!!


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## Toon (May 11, 2021)

_There is only one battery for each model........7.2V EFI units use 1 NiMH and the 12V EFI units use 1 lead acid_

I guess this is my question. If you were a manufacturer wouldn't you want to keep your parts list as short as possible? I would make a 12VDC servo system that would work whether the blower was 12VDC electric start or pull to start with no battery. Both systems in my view should run off of 12VDC then on a 12VDC electric start model the built in battery charging circuit would keep the 12VDC battery charged and no other external charger would be necessary for the EFI.


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## Sam Am I (Oct 28, 2021)

Toon said:


> _There is only one battery for each model........7.2V EFI units use 1 NiMH and the 12V EFI units use 1 lead acid_
> 
> I guess this is my question. If you were a manufacturer wouldn't you want to keep your parts list as short as possible? I would make a 12VDC servo system that would work whether the blower was 12VDC electric start or pull to start with no battery. Both systems in my view should run off of 12VDC then on a 12VDC electric start model the built in battery charging circuit would keep the 12VDC battery charged and no other external charger would be necessary for the EFI.



Yeah ya'd think so, most do to save money etc.

I think as far as main engine EFI stuff, they've stream lined it down pretty well in that it seems they're running all the SAME *peripherals right at battery voltage (be it 7.2V or 12V), BUT they do have have two diff ECU's where.........

1) If it's a 7.2V unit, the ECU contains a dedicated rec/reg for a 13.5Vp 60W AC alt/flywheel to charge a 7.2V NiMH, where all peripherals run off said 7.2V-8.4V when the engine/alt is running

2) If it's a 12V unit, they use a different ECU and a off-board dedicated rec/reg for the 13.5Vp 250W AC alt/flywheel to charge a 12V acid, where all the SAME peripherals run off said 12V -14.2V when the engine/alt is running............BTW, I'm betting the 420cc's 250W alt and flywheel are "same enough" to fit and replace the 60W stuff on my 369cc.

So, 2- Different ECU's, 2- different batteries, 2-different 13.5Vp alts and add a separate rec/reg for 12V units.

That seems to be the extent of different engine EFI running parts between the 7.2v verse 12V units for the most part as best I've been able to glean........The throttle servo, TB, FI and FP all seem to be the same parts as it appears they are all setup and spec'd to run right off the batts of either 7.2 or 12V.

*(throttle servo, TB, FI and FP)

Off topic a bit, but relates, the running LED's lights now are also more universals in that they mostly all have built in controllers that let them use either AC or DC anywhere from like 6 to 30V......The hand warms are the same as well.


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