# Ethanol gas vs. non-Ethanol gas



## stromr (Jul 20, 2016)

Heard a new one today when I went to buy non-ethanol gas at the usual place. Guy told me a car salesman told him once you start using non-ethanol gas you can't go back to ethanol gas. I don't believe it.


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## 1132le (Feb 23, 2017)

car salseman LOL what a bunch of bs


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## broo (Dec 23, 2017)

I don't see why it would matter. This is like the enduring myth that once you use synthetic oil, you can't switch back to regular oil.


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## HCBPH (Mar 8, 2011)

stromr said:


> Heard a new one today when I went to buy non-ethanol gas at the usual place. Guy told me a car salesman told him once you start using non-ethanol gas you can't go back to ethanol gas. I don't believe it.


 
Absolute Truth :devil:


In all seriousness, once you find out how well your OPE engines run on non-oxygenated fuel, you'll never go back. Many years ago I had a couple of engines that ran like crap on gasohol and I'd used every trick in the book on them. It tried some non-oxygenated fuel in them and they ran like champs without changing a thing. I permanently switched from gasohol fuel to non-alcohol and never looked back at least as far as OPE goes.


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## Town (Jan 31, 2015)

So it is not that you can't go back, you don't want to go back. Ethanol has much less Btu's than gas so non-ethanol gas will give an engine more power. I think it is hard to tell the difference in a snowblower engine but under load there will be a power increase with non-ethanol gas. For car use the difference is noticeable due to better fuel economy (that you can measure) and the electronics take advantage of the usually higher octane to reduce knock while advancing the ignition for a better burn performance. I even notice smoother idling on my car with non-ethanol gas; but I have to pay a 60 cent premium per US gallon (here in Canada).

Non-ethanol gas keeps for well over a year in storage and no need for expensive stabilisers.


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## Tumble2113 (Nov 20, 2017)

I’ve switched to truefuel since I cannot get non ethanol near me. I swear I feel a difference. Back to one pull to start, runs smooth. I will only run it in the new equipment now. I buy the quarts by the case about twice a year, so the price difference doesn’t really sting that much. 


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## Tumble2113 (Nov 20, 2017)

Tumble2113 said:


> I’ve switched to truefuel since I cannot get non ethanol near me. I swear I feel a difference. Back to one pull to start, runs smooth. I will only run it in the new equipment now. I buy the quarts by the case about twice a year, so the price difference doesn’t really sting that much.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Sorry, I know that’s not the point of the post, but I would not want to switch back but there is no reason you can’t. Like previously said. Pfft, car salesman. 


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## Dannoman (Jan 16, 2018)

The extra price you pay for ethanol free gas is cheap compared to repairing the damage done by ethanol.


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## GoBlowSnow (Sep 4, 2015)

What damage..


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## Dannoman (Jan 16, 2018)

Damage cited in Consumer Reports...

https://www.consumerreports.org/cro...ethanol-can-make-small-engines-fail/index.htm


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## HCBPH (Mar 8, 2011)

I don't believe there's any absolute reason you can't switch from non-oxygenated fuel to gasohol (despite what the salesman stated).

IMO the minor cost difference in cost between the 2 types of fuel is worth the cost to avoid alcohol in your OPE fuel. Especially when you look at older equipment, things like rubber parts can be attacked by the alcohol. Same thing with some floats and gaskets - if they weren't formulated for alcohol blends, that same alcohol can attack internal parts. 
I forget the proper name for it, but IIRC the alcohol in gasohol will attract and hold water to a much higher degree than pure gasoline. 
I've bought, rebuilt and sold a lot of machines over the years. Those that weren't drained of fuel prior to being stored had significantly more carburetor issues with crystallization and left over garbage in the carbs and were harder to get cleaned up. That's a personal observation on my part, but it's still a pain to deal with.


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## 1132le (Feb 23, 2017)

There is no damage if you dont leave gas sitting in it or treat your gas with stabul 
run seafoam in it right before year end
can also run 1/2 a tank of true fuel to clean it out after seafoam
that carb pic is the fault of the owner
consumer reports is mostly useless
Ive never had damage to my tec carb it is 35 yrs old and counting


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## guilateen02 (Nov 23, 2014)

I wish I can find non ethanol fuel near me at a decent price. I run through too much for those prepackaged cans and only a couple gas stations near me that I know of can special order for me and amd require an $80 deposit for there cans. Zip 02830 if anyone personally knows a station within reasonable distance chime in. And don't bother using Google it isn't accurate.


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## CO Snow (Dec 8, 2011)

guilateen02 said:


> I wish I can find non ethanol fuel near me at a decent price. I run through too much for those prepackaged cans and only a couple gas stations near me that I know of can special order for me and amd require an $80 deposit for there cans. Zip 02830 if anyone personally knows a station within reasonable distance chime in. And don't bother using Google it isn't accurate.


Do you know about these 5 gas stations in RI?
https://www.pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=RI


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## Lunta (Dec 14, 2017)

Ethanol belongs in a drinking glass, not a fuel tank.


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## Zavie (Sep 23, 2014)

My stuff starts and runs way better using gas without ethanol. I used to hold my breath when starting equipment with gasoline containing ethanol, now I barely have to look at the starter rope and they start right up. My new Toro needs half choke and one primer pump then barely pulling the cord and it comes to life. When I first got the Husqvarna I was still using ethanol, since switching it starts easier and runs better 3 years later than it did in the first year.


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## guilateen02 (Nov 23, 2014)

Thanks Co snow but only two of those are those are actually gas stations and those (Sonoco and Mason Automotive ) and those are the special order ones I was speaking of. The others are stores that sell the small cans.


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## HCBPH (Mar 8, 2011)

guilateen02 said:


> Thanks Co snow but only two of those are those are actually gas stations and those (Sonoco and Mason Automotive ) and those are the special order ones I was speaking of. The others are stores that sell the small cans.


This is a thought, so it might work or might not. Do you have a small airport around you? I'm not sure, but I believe Aviation fuel does not have alcohol in it. Maybe see if you can buy a couple of gallons of av gas from them and give it a try.

I did a search for stations in RI that sell non alcohol fuel and came up with this: https://www.pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=RI


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## Mike247365 (Jan 14, 2018)

There is an app for your phone. It’s called PureGas. It will get you to gas stations with ethanol free gas.


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## paulm12 (May 22, 2015)

to be clear: ethanol does not attract water. It is hydrophilic, which means ethanol holds water. With regular gasoline (E0) as well at E10, the primary cause of water collecting in tanks is condensation on tank walls. But unlike E0, which can absorb almost no moisture, E10 can hold up to half of one percent of water by volume, and the water molecules will dissolve in the fuel. 

So the same total amount of water will be in your tank (from condensation) regardless of the type of gas. It just gets absorbed better in the E10. In the E0 the gas and water stay separated. 

Proper maintenance procedures can make the biggest difference. Personally, I have not had problems with Stabil treated E10 gas over the years.


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## Kris3983 (Feb 10, 2018)

So i just purched a new 3x cub (i know not many are fans but my first year of owning it i love it) and was told to use nothing but premium with fuel stabilizer. I was thinking of getting non ethanol gas since i only go thru about 5 gallons a year for snow blowing and grass cutting. I want to protect my investment as thats a lot of dough for me. If i go that route do i still need fuel stabilizer for,it?


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## GoBlowSnow (Sep 4, 2015)

you were told? By who? What does the owners manual say?


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## jim5554 (Mar 18, 2017)

I use pump gas with 10% ethanol with PRI-G stabilizer and I drain the carb and the tank at the end of the season. I put that gas in my tractor or even my car. My 12 year old Ariens with an 11.5hp Tecumseh has never needed repair, starts on the first or second pull, runs like a champ, has plenty of power, no surging, no stalling, no problems at all. I also have a lawn tractor, two generators, and a power washer. I follow the same procedure with them and they don't have any problems either. I can't get ethanol free gas at a reasonable price anywhere near my home and I'm not going to spend $7 on a quart of ersatz fuel at Sears. It doesn't make any sense. I also use the PRI-G in the 55 gallon tank of my Motor Home over the winter so the additional cost of 10 or 20 ml of stabilizer is insignificant. One pint of it costs about $30 at Amazon and does 256 gallons.


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## Jatoxico (Jan 6, 2018)

paulm12 said:


> to be clear: ethanol does not attract water. It is hydrophilic,


I don't mean to be rude but this is completely inaccurate. Hydrophilic literally means "water loving" so it does attract atmospheric water (humidity) causing it to dissolve into the E10 when it would not do so under the same conditions into non-ethanol fuel.

If the same amount of water was in the tanks (and carbs) of OPE regardless of fuel type there would be no advantage to ethanol free fuel. It's the fact that E10 so avidly attracts water that causes it to go bad and why you should keep your tanks sealed tight and stabilize.


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## dwgray (Jan 14, 2018)

Lunta said:


> Ethanol belongs in a drinking glass, not a fuel tank.


Where I come from we are permitted to make it to run our snowblowers but not for consumption.


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## dwgray (Jan 14, 2018)

Kris3983 said:


> So i just purched a new 3x cub (i know not many are fans but my first year of owning it i love it) and was told to use nothing but premium with fuel stabilizer. I was thinking of getting non ethanol gas since i only go thru about 5 gallons a year for snow blowing and grass cutting. I want to protect my investment as thats a lot of dough for me. If i go that route do i still need fuel stabilizer for,it?


If you go alcohol free you do not need stabilizer. I use Avgas.

I fondled a 3x Cub at Tractor Supply yesterday.


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## RIT333 (Feb 6, 2014)

dwgray said:


> I fondled a 3x Cub at Tractor Supply yesterday.


You may want to look into #MeToo LOL


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## Kris3983 (Feb 10, 2018)

I fondled a 3x Cub at Tractor Supply yesterday.[/QUOTE]
I fondled it every time i went to home,depot for,about a month before i pulled the plug. Those were good times lol.


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## Kiss4aFrog (Nov 3, 2013)

I think when someone is recommending premium fuel they actually mean non-oxygenated fuel or "E-0". If it isn't a high compression engine built for performance high octane just doesn't have any advantage.

Getting regular E-0 is first choice, mid-grade E-0 would be second and premium only if the other two aren't available.
Getting in the habit of dumping your blower gas into your vehicle every month or two if you haven't used it is another excellent idea. That way it's always fresh in the can. In summer I go through it fast enough with the tiller and mower I never have to worry about it getting old.


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## Kiss4aFrog (Nov 3, 2013)

RIT333 said:


> You may want to look into #MeToo LOL


Not him, it's the Cub that's been abused :surprise:


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## Kris3983 (Feb 10, 2018)

I got one more tank to use up and then ill give it a try and see if i can tell the difference in the porformance and how it holds up.


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## AL- (Oct 27, 2014)

I think the smaller the motor the more prone to problems with ethanol gas. I switched to ethanol free for all my small engines when my chainsaw carb became gummed up.


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## gibbs296 (Jun 22, 2014)

Just want to say thanks to everyone in this thread. I've forgotten about using non ethanol gas and there is a station close to me. I like it!!


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## gregg (Nov 23, 2012)

ttps://www.forconstructionpros.com/equipment/news/11222040/opei-warns-against-using-gasolineethanol-blends-greater-than-e10


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## jrcjr (Sep 23, 2017)

Keep in mind that in the case of alcohols in gas, being hydrophilic is a GOOD quality. The hydrophilic nature of alcohols (whether methanol, ethanol, or propanol (isopropyl)) picks up condensation and locks it away in a state that prevents it from immediately causing rust. In other words, if you take a tank full of straight gasoline and a tank full of E-10 gasoline and place a drop of water in both, the drop of water in pure gas will settle to the bottom and IMMEDIATELY go to work on the tank wall. In the tank of E-10, the alcohol will absorb the drop of water. 

If you doubt this for one second, then here comes the blasphemy:

Seafoam is up to 24.9% isopropyl alcohol, which is almost as hydrophilic as ethanol. (Alcohols become less hydrophilic the longer the carbon chains are, so isopropyl having 3 carbons is slightly less hydrophilic than ethanol with 2 carbons, but not by much.)
If you doubt this claim, don't debate it here, simply google 'seafoam MSDS'.

Now, if you add enough water to a tank (condensation), the ethanol will reach a point at which it becomes waterlogged enough and will settle out and start to do the same damage that was happening with the tank full of pure gas from the start. When the saturated water falls out of phase with the surrounding gas, a gelatin can form based on what OTHER additives are in the gas. If that happens, changing to a different brand of gas that has different additives is your best bet. So, in short, if you're talking about corrosion of steel, then alcohol infused gas will outperform pure gas, which is why a lot of fuel additives contain alcohol of one variety or another.


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## Loco-diablo (Feb 12, 2015)

Dannoman said:


> Damage cited in Consumer Reports...
> 
> https://www.consumerreports.org/cro...ethanol-can-make-small-engines-fail/index.htm


Nonsense.


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## Loco-diablo (Feb 12, 2015)

87 octane (regular) as recommended by engine manufacturer (10% ethanol) with marine Stabil. Never had a problem in over 30 years and ALL my blowers have run great. I tried the $7 a Qt TRU-FUEL and saw little if no difference in performance. Certainly not $28 a gallon difference .


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## jim5554 (Mar 18, 2017)

Consumer Reports isn't what it used to be. A lot of their ratings are agenda driven and no longer make sense. I put them in the same category as Snopes.


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## CO Snow (Dec 8, 2011)

Loco-diablo said:


> I tried the $7 a Qt TRU-FUEL and saw little if no difference in performance. Certainly not $28 a gallon difference .


True, but I can get E0 at the pump for $0.40 more per gallon compared to E10 - pretty cheap insurance


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## paulm12 (May 22, 2015)

Jatoxico said:


> I don't mean to be rude but this is completely inaccurate. Hydrophilic literally means "water loving" so it does attract atmospheric water (humidity) causing it to dissolve into the E10 when it would not do so under the same conditions into non-ethanol fuel.
> 
> If the same amount of water was in the tanks (and carbs) of OPE regardless of fuel type there would be no advantage to ethanol free fuel. It's the fact that E10 so avidly attracts water that causes it to go bad and why you should keep your tanks sealed tight and stabilize.


Not rude at all, I am always open to debate/discussion on these items. From a technical point of view, hydrophilic refers to the tendency of a material (ethanol in this case) to mix with, dissolve in, or be wetted by water. It does not really "attract" water from its environment. E10 can hold up to half of one percent of water by volume, as opposed to E0 which can absorb almost no water. In the E10, the water molecules will dissolve in the fuel. The dissolving of water into the fuel is the difference between E0 and E10. 

See the comments by jrcjr on post #35. He explained better than I did what the alcohol does with water in your tank, and why the same amount of water in an E0 filled tank behaves differently than in an E10 filled tank. 

Thanks


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## GoBlowSnow (Sep 4, 2015)

jim5554 said:


> Consumer Reports isn't what it used to be. A lot of their ratings are agenda driven and no longer make sense. I put them in the same category as Snopes.


And what agenda would that be? They are not sponsored by anyone, they do not advertise for anyone..


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## DuffyJr (Oct 15, 2015)

paulm12 said:


> Not rude at all, I am always open to debate/discussion on these items. From a technical point of view, hydrophilic refers to the tendency of a material (ethanol in this case) to mix with, dissolve in, or be wetted by water. It does not really "attract" water from its environment. E10 can hold up to half of one percent of water by volume, as opposed to E0 which can absorb almost no water. In the E10, the water molecules will dissolve in the fuel. The dissolving of water into the fuel is the difference between E0 and E10.
> 
> See the comments by jrcjr on post #35. He explained better than I did what the alcohol does with water in your tank, and why the same amount of water in an E0 filled tank behaves differently than in an E10 filled tank.
> 
> Thanks


Back in the day (60's & 70's) on the farm we use to use a lot of Heet which is really false advertisement when is says it removes water from gas, there is no magic solution to remove the water from gas, the best you can do is get the water to mix in with the gas so it gets burned along with the fuel and also keeps the moisture from freezing in fuel lines. I believe only alcohol can achieve this.


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## Spectrum (Jan 6, 2013)

GoBlowSnow said:


> And what agenda would that be? They are not sponsored by anyone, they do not advertise for anyone..


I find they have tunnel vision and testing is not always grounded by subject matter experts. The value of model suggestions is fleeting. The biggest value is probably opening peopls's eyes to possible decision criteria.


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

Seems also that the 'tree hugger' agenda has begun to override product quality evaluation and ranking, which was always thier strong suit, not politics . . . and while those factors are of interest to many, they have no bearing on quality and durability.


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## Loco-diablo (Feb 12, 2015)

Again, I’ve been using 87 E10 in my equipment for years. Never had a problem. I tried tru fuel and the like but didn’t notice much difference at over $25 a gallon. Ethanol needs to be treated a bit different than regular gas. I pour the unused ethanol gas into my truck monthly before it starts to go bad and refill the can with fresh stuff. I also add stabilizer to it right away. If you use it correctly, it’s fine. It’s all about how you use it.




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## bisonp (Mar 23, 2018)

I've been using E10 for almost 20 years now, it hasn't given me any issues. I always add Seafoam to it. I drain my blower every year and do not drain my mower, per instructions for each. Between the two the gas never sits for more than 6 months or so. 

I remember adding isopropyl to gas back in the day, ethanol eliminates that. If I had a lot of engines that sat idle for months on end on a regular basis, then yeah I'd probably try to avoid it. But it's been a long time since I've given it a second thought.


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## Zavie (Sep 23, 2014)

K100 test from donyboy73:


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## Lottstodo (Feb 16, 2018)

Lots of good discussion on this subject. I live in an area where for winter we are actually supposed to be getting a winter blend fuel because of the cold temps ( this from distributor) that normally starts getting delivered in the fall to stations. what they actually do to it is anyone's guess. They do this with fuel oils as well. One thing for sure is that yes ethanol can be destructive if it is used where the equip or product was never designed to use or tolerate it. Some of the old plastics and rubber blends and gasket materials do not react well to it. Old gas cans and tanks like boat tanks were leaching ethanol out of the plastics, this also includes your fuel lines if it is not made for ethanol, primer bulbs and carb parts, and even gas caps. I have not found a good gas line that holds up to both the ethanol and UV for long duration's. They sell a lot with claims to, but havent seen results that I like. Last spring I replaced fuel lines on a chainsaw with very expensive fuel line and in Oct the saw would not run. this saw was being used 4 days a week. The line inside the tank totally shot, he was using E10. Alot has been said about fuel / water saturation between EO and E10 and as stated E10 will absorb or can hold up to 1/2% by volume of h20. I think the big problem is when you exceed the 1/2% water and it is not absorbed or mixed with the fuel and you end up with water at the bottom of your fuel bowl or tank. Yes E10 cannot hold or absorb all the water you throw at it so it has to go somewhere. Now how much water do you think is in the stations fuel holding tanks! Alot! they have guage sticks to measure it. So if the holding tanks have enough water to saturate your fuel to 1/2% h20 by volume, before you pump it into your can anything that you may have in your equipment tanks (water) will not be absorbed. Gas from a pump does not mean its fresh, nor mean moisture free. And because of this saying that you dont need fuel dryers anymore is not accurate. I add gas dryer when I notice surging or hard starts, or rough idle during season. As well I have taken a glass jar drained E10 from the blower carb bowl only to see a bunch of water drops, same in the tank bottom this is during its peak use. Because of having to use gas dryer anyway in E10 I figure that I am probably making it into something like E15 by the time I add the dryer, I prefer to use unleaded non ethanol fuel and when I do see water drops in the tank I tilt the machine to one side and use a turkey baster with a hose that I put a check valve in and simply remove the water from tank bottom. then if necessary add some dryer. I do not leave any fuels in equip. during storage, I run it dry, and when dealing with a metal tank I fog the tank with marvel mystery oil (I use a areasol sprayer for paint touch up) and fog cylinder then put it up till next season.


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## bisonp (Mar 23, 2018)

Zavie said:


> K100 test from donyboy73:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5p89dk5tZuE


That looks to be good stuff, though mixing 50/50 doesn't simulate anything you'd see in the real world. Seafoam has worked for me for a long time, but I might see if I can find this locally (their website says no, but also says Napa sells it). Thanks for the video!


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## Lottstodo (Feb 16, 2018)

I found it online through a m a z o n that little bottle is pricey !


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## Loco-diablo (Feb 12, 2015)

Lottstodo said:


> Lots of good discussion on this subject. I live in an area where for winter we are actually supposed to be getting a winter blend fuel because of the cold temps ( this from distributor) that normally starts getting delivered in the fall to stations. what they actually do to it is anyone's guess. They do this with fuel oils as well. One thing for sure is that yes ethanol can be destructive if it is used where the equip or product was never designed to use or tolerate it. Some of the old plastics and rubber blends and gasket materials do not react well to it. Old gas cans and tanks like boat tanks were leaching ethanol out of the plastics, this also includes your fuel lines if it is not made for ethanol, primer bulbs and carb parts, and even gas caps. I have not found a good gas line that holds up to both the ethanol and UV for long duration's. They sell a lot with claims to, but havent seen results that I like. Last spring I replaced fuel lines on a chainsaw with very expensive fuel line and in Oct the saw would not run. this saw was being used 4 days a week. The line inside the tank totally shot, he was using E10. Alot has been said about fuel / water saturation between EO and E10 and as stated E10 will absorb or can hold up to 1/2% by volume of h20. I think the big problem is when you exceed the 1/2% water and it is not absorbed or mixed with the fuel and you end up with water at the bottom of your fuel bowl or tank. Yes E10 cannot hold or absorb all the water you throw at it so it has to go somewhere. Now how much water do you think is in the stations fuel holding tanks! Alot! they have guage sticks to measure it. So if the holding tanks have enough water to saturate your fuel to 1/2% h20 by volume, before you pump it into your can anything that you may have in your equipment tanks (water) will not be absorbed. Gas from a pump does not mean its fresh, nor mean moisture free. And because of this saying that you dont need fuel dryers anymore is not accurate. I add gas dryer when I notice surging or hard starts, or rough idle during season. As well I have taken a glass jar drained E10 from the blower carb bowl only to see a bunch of water drops, same in the tank bottom this is during its peak use. Because of having to use gas dryer anyway in E10 I figure that I am probably making it into something like E15 by the time I add the dryer, I prefer to use unleaded non ethanol fuel and when I do see water drops in the tank I tilt the machine to one side and use a turkey baster with a hose that I put a check valve in and simply remove the water from tank bottom. then if necessary add some dryer. I do not leave any fuels in equip. during storage, I run it dry, and when dealing with a metal tank I fog the tank with marvel mystery oil (I use a areasol sprayer for paint touch up) and fog cylinder then put it up till next season.




Whew.. very detailed and scientific observations. Nice!

I’ve done none of what you mention. Never added a drying agent, never separated water, etc..

I just run my machines with 87 octane E10 (because non ethanol is not readily available)with an added squirt of sta-bil marine. 

Store machine per manufacturer instructions. 


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## Clint62 (12 mo ago)

Another vote for no ethanol fuel if you have any stations nearby. I bet those little cans of special fuel are pretty spendy. I dont put ethanol in any lawn/garden engine...or generator..snowmobiles...boats. Ethanol is for the minivan!


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## badbmwbrad (Jul 30, 2019)

I vote for 100 low-lead aviation gas. It doesn't have any ethanol. It does have tetraethyl lead which will extend the service life of the exhaust valve seats on old engines. Avgas stores for at least a year without need for fuel stabilizer. It's not as volatile as automotive gas. 

Avgas has a Reid vapor pressure range of 5.5 to 7 psi. Auto gas vapor pressure is 8 to 14 psi. The lower Avgas volatility reduces the chance of vapor lock but that's unlikely to occur during cold weather operation at ground elevation. Avgas - Wikipedia


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## tabora (Mar 1, 2017)

badbmwbrad said:


> 100 low-lead aviation gas. It doesn't have any ethanol. It does have tetraethyl lead


Yes, too much TEL for me...
*100LL has a maximum of 0.56 grams of lead (.875 gr of TEL) per Litre. This is equivalent to 2.12 grams of lead per US gallon of gasoline. (As a comparison standpoint, this lies within the same range as the lead content of on-road automotive gasoline from 1973.) *​


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## jherbicide (Oct 14, 2021)

tabora said:


> Yes, too much TEL for me...
> *100LL has a maximum of 0.56 grams of lead (.875 gr of TEL) per Litre. This is equivalent to 2.12 grams of lead per US gallon of gasoline. (As a comparison standpoint, this lies within the same range as the lead content of on-road automotive gasoline from 1973.) *​


I used 100LL for quite some time due to it virtually eliminating carburetor issues, and I can get it relatively cheap. About a dollar extra per gallon compared to 91 E0…

Once I had kids, I stopped using it for the very reason you mention. I might already have enough drain bamage but that doesn’t mean my kids need any.


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## Pete826 (Dec 1, 2020)

Well if car salesman said it, it must be true. Hehe…….


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