# Impeller speed on Honda and Yamaha faster than others?



## JLawrence08648 (Jan 15, 2017)

There's been talk that the Honda and Yamaha impeller spins at a higher speed than others. That's the reason for their great throw. Is that true or are we guessing? Not important to this conversation but if it does spin faster, what speed? And what speed do the others spin at? Maybe we should consider changing the crank pulley to get a faster spin?

The only accurate way is to purchase and use a laser or photo tach, one that uses the reflective tape and gun, and shoot it. (No violence or threats intended, and no snowblowers were hurt or will be hurt doing this).


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## YSHSfan (Jun 25, 2014)

I may update this as I get more info

(unfortunately Yamaha does not provide this spec on their Service Manuals lain:, I'll see if I can eventually figure out an approximate number based on pulleys size and engine rpm) 

Honda:

Track HS624/724 (10" impeller) 1447rpm
Wheel HS624/724 (12" impeller) 1365rpm
HS828/928/1132 (12" impeller) 1370rpm
HS1332 (12" impeller)

HSS928 (13.5" impeller) 1226rpm
HSS1332 (13.5" impeller) 1267rpm

:blowerhug:


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## YSHSfan (Jun 25, 2014)

High speed impeller + narrow/long chute = tight stream & long distance.


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## nwcove (Mar 2, 2015)

you can hear it in many utube vids, they sound like a skil-saw. or maybe im hearing things. lol


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## 1132le (Feb 23, 2017)

my st824 was 1020 or there abouts its 1090 now @3720 rpm since 2009 still waiting for the flathead to blow up
throws 40 feet with the impeller kit never clogs
the 1332 oh358 was [email protected] mine was [email protected] threw 45 feet plus with a kit
current 921037 28 plus 414cc stock rpm was 3576 impeller was 1040 or there abouts
raised engine to 3830 impeller rpm 1111 with impeller kit was throwing that räin soäked march storms 45 feet plus 
nrver tested a ariens higher then 1040 impeller speed stock rpms of 3600
the new sho are suppose to be 1083 town was 1050 stock i think he is over 1100 ẃith the gov mod
i might do te sho top pulley should net me 50 more impeller rpm atleast

IMPELLER RPM IS MOST IMPORTANT IMO


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## Town (Jan 31, 2015)

YSHSfan said:


> I may update this as I get more info
> 
> Honda:
> 
> ...


Interesting that Honda have reduced the impeller rpm as impeller diameter has increased. My Ariens has a 14" impeller and 1130 or so rpm, based upon digital infra red device readout with 2.75" crank pulley and 9" impeller pulley and 3,700 recommended engine rpm. Supported by this calculation: Pulley size and RPM 

Impeller diameter is not a factor in the calculations to determine impeller rpm (based upon engine rpm and crank pulley dia and impeller pulley diameter). So if the Honda has the optimum impeller size to RPM, how would you calculate a 14" impeller optimum rpm on a Honda?


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## YSHSfan (Jun 25, 2014)

Town said:


> Interesting that Honda have reduced the impeller rpm as impeller diameter has increased. My Ariens has a 14" impeller and 1130 or so rpm, based upon digital infra red device readout with 2.75" crank pulley and 9" impeller pulley and 3,700 recommended engine rpm. Supported by this calculation: Pulley size and RPM
> 
> Impeller diameter is not a factor in the calculations to determine impeller rpm (based upon engine rpm and crank pulley dia and impeller pulley diameter). So if the Honda has the optimum impeller size to RPM, how would you calculate a 14" impeller optimum rpm on a Honda?


What’s really important is the impeller tip speed and not the rpm. The larger the impeller the lower the needed rpms. That’s why Honda decreases rpms as the impeller diameter increases. 
The ‘magic number’ is about 4500ft/min (I do not have the formula handy but I’ll try to post it tomorrow). 
What Honda did to reduce the rpm on the 13.5 impeller was to increase the diameter of the impeller pulley while keeping the same engine pulley.


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## tpenfield (Feb 24, 2015)

It seems like, across the board, 1000 - 1400 RPM is the range of auger speeds that we see. The diameter is an important factor as that determines the tip speed, as mentioned, which is the highest velocity the snow sees on its way out of the chute.

If you have a 12" auger going 1200 RPM then . . . (1200 rev/min x 12" x 3.1415926 (pi) ) / (60 seconds/min x 12"/ft) = 62.83 ft/sec (42.8 mph)

If you have a 14" auger going 1050 RPM then the same calculations give 64.1 ft/sec (43.7 mph)

In familiar terms, it seems like decent impeller tip speeds are in the 42 - 50 mph range, so you can assume that the snow is being ejected at a similar speed, but probably not quite that speed.

Comparing a couple of the Honda's mentioned:

Track HS624/724 (10" impeller) 1447rpm: *43* mph tip speed
HSS928 (13.5" impeller) 1226rpm: *49* mph tip speed

The slower/bigger impeller wins !


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## YSHSfan (Jun 25, 2014)

I found the formula

impeller tip speed (ft/min) = impeller circumference (diameter in inches x 3.14 /12) x rpm


Honda HSS1332 

impeller tip speed = (13.5 x 3.14/12) x 1283 = 4532 ft/min (throwing distance 56ft)

I'm almost positive that the 'D' with dual deflector throws a bit further.


HS828/928/1132

impeller tip speed = (12 x 3.14/12) x 1365 = 4286 ft/min (throwing distance 49.2 ft)




Honda HS6/724TA

impeller tip speed = (10 x 3.14/12) x 1447 = 3786 ft/min (throwing distance 39.4 ft)




As you may notice as the impeller tip speed decreases the throwing distance also decreases.

What really maters is the impeller tip speed (assuming you have close to similar chutes).
If we were to speed up the 10" impeller to ~ 1730rpm we can achieve 50-55ft trowing distance (the engine may lack power with heavy snow but we will get the desired distance).
But with the faster impeller also comes faster augers rotation which will likely be beneficial or work against it (I may be trying 1800rpm for the impeller on one of my HS824/924 projects)

:blowerhug:


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## tpenfield (Feb 24, 2015)

It seems like we were typing at the same time . . . :smile2:

Just adding the equivalent mph figures . . . 

Honda HSS1332 

impeller tip speed = (13.5 x 3.14/12) x 1283 = 4532 ft/min (*throwing distance 56ft*) . . . *51.55 mph tip speed :surprise:*

HS828/928/1132

impeller tip speed = (12 x 3.14/12) x 1365 = 4286 ft/min (*throwing distance 49.2 ft*) . . . *48.7 mph tip speed :smile2:*

Honda HS6/724TA

impeller tip speed = (10 x 3.14/12) x 1447 = 3786 ft/min (*throwing distance 39.4 ft*) . . . *43 mph tip speed lain:*


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## Spectrum (Jan 6, 2013)

JLawrence08648 said:


> The only accurate way is to purchase and use a laser or photo tach, one that uses the reflective tape and gun, and shoot it. (No violence or threats intended, and no snowblowers were hurt or will be hurt doing this).


You can just measure the pulleys to get the ratio and apply that to the engine speed. For engine speed use either the theoretical spec or tachometer measured engine speed, according to the answer you really want.

With impeller RPM established use the above formula to get to tip velocity.


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## Freezn (Mar 1, 2014)

In addition to tip speed, Honda utilizes very tight tolerances between the impeller blade and the impeller housing which also greatly improves discharge volume and distance.


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## Town (Jan 31, 2015)

YSHSfan said:


> What’s really important is the impeller tip speed and not the rpm. The larger the impeller the lower the needed rpms. That’s why Honda decreases rpms as the impeller diameter increases.
> The ‘magic number’ is about 4500ft/min (I do not have the formula handy but I’ll try to post it tomorrow).
> What Honda did to reduce the rpm on the 13.5 impeller was to increase the diameter of the impeller pulley while keeping the same engine pulley.


Thanks for the formula you posted later. 

So my current setup gives 4140 ft per min impeller tip speed. To increase that to 4500 ft per min the only variable is impeller rpm so it is important. So to increase impeller rpm I need to go to a larger engine pulley. Do you know the sizes of the Honda 1332 engine and crank pulleys?

Since I live in an urban environment throwing distance is not so important, but volume of snow thrown is very important. To get more volume I have increased the width of the impeller blade and the next step is to increase the curve of the impeller blade across the impeller width. Does the depth of the impeller blade play a role in output. The Ariens impeller is very curved and deep while the Honda seems flat and shallow.

I am pleased with all aspects of my machines snow throwing since it throws all snow and slush without clogging and plenty far enough with lots of volume; more is always better.


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## YSHSfan (Jun 25, 2014)

Honda uses a 3” pulley on most models for the impeller belt and 3.5” on the 1332 (since the GX390 runs at slightly lower rpm). 
I’ll have to check on the impeller pulley side but the HSS with the 13.5 impeller is about 2” larger than the HS series with 12” and 10” impellers.


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## Spectrum (Jan 6, 2013)

This is interesting.......

The Gilson proportions circa 1966/1970 designs work in the 3000/3500 tip feet per minute range. Throwing range was never Gilson's claim to fame but they were competitive in the day. *I'd be curious where the Toro, Ariens, Simplicity machines of that error landed for tip speed.*

There's no such thing as a free lunch. What were big machines at 8 HP are now in the 11-13 HP (or equivalent torque) range. That combined with snow metering features, taller/narrower chutes and impeller clearances account for 40+ years of progress.


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

Town said:


> Since I live in an urban environment throwing distance is not so important, but volume of snow thrown is very important. To get more volume I have increased the width of the impeller blade and the next step is to increase the curve of the impeller blade across the impeller width.


Similarly, I don't need miles of throwing distance. Though at the wider part of my driveway, by the garage, a longer throw would help, to try and get it all the way to the edge of the driveway in 1 shot. 

But at the moment, I would like to increase the amount of snow I can fling per second. It's 10hp, and only 24" wide, so I'm usually not power-limited, in normal snow. But I have to slow down when the snow starts to overflow from the bucket, into the cleared area. 

I don't *think* my auger belt is slipping, there's no squealing or burnt smell, and I don't suddenly see the throwing distance drop off. But I did find some little belt fragments down in the lower half of the tractor recently (they looked like from the skinny part of the "V", which should never be touching anything). Maybe I'll swap the belt in the off-season. 

But if nothing is slipping, I would like to increase the impeller speed, more like an SHO model, or higher. It would process the snow more quickly, allowing faster ground speeds. It's too bad it looks like a pain to figure out swapping pulleys & belts. 

I wish other companies could use Simplicity's Power Boost feature, which appears to spin the impeller quickly under a light load, and change the pulley ratio to slow it down with more torque, in heavy snow. You'd get the best of both worlds, long throwing distances, without bogging the engine down in deep/heavy snow. 

I did see that you can buy manually-adjustable-size pulleys. That could be a cool option to allow trying different tip speeds. Depending on how much slack the idler pulley can accommodate, you might have some impeller speed range available, with just a single belt.


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## 1132le (Feb 23, 2017)

even with power boost it still rated to throw less then ariens non sho never mind sho
imo its a gimmick ill take the sho faster speed every time its better


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## YSHSfan (Jun 25, 2014)

In case some of you may not know our forum member Shaw351 has built a few Ariens 924 series with 14” 6 bladed impellers with their impeller rpm boosted to 1800. This gives an impeller tip speed of ~6600 ft/min. I believe there are a few videos of them in action.
He has stated no issues so far on any of them, but he does modify the augers gearbox key way.


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

1132le said:


> even with power boost it still rated to throw less then ariens non sho never mind sho
> imo its a gimmick ill take the sho faster speed every time its better


I was talking more about the concept, not the specifics of the Simplicity blowers themselves. 

Faster is better, until it isn't  You'll go faster in your car on level ground in 5th gear, than in 2nd gear (like lighter snow). 

But 5th gear will become slower than 2nd when you need to go up a steep hill at 20 mph, towing a trailer. That, like a heavy EOD scenario, is when you might appreciate the extra torque and reduced impeller speed of a variable system like that. 

Every fixed impeller-speed selection is a compromise, balancing throwing distance, vs the ability to handle heavy deep snow without overwhelming the engine. What I think is cool about the Simplicity approach is that, at least in theory, you can have the best of both worlds. 

If someone made a blower with a Low and High impeller RPM (say 1000 and 1400 RPM), manually selected, I think that would be cool. But no one would really want to deal with that added cost and complexity. Certainly not just to make me happy 

BTW, 1800 RPM on those must be nuts!


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## 1132le (Feb 23, 2017)

a 28 sho will beat a non sho with the same motor everytime in any type of snow
big enough engine solves the issue not a varaible sheave thats just something else to break malfunction
simplicity is rated 40 feet only has 14.5 ft lbs and its not cheap
my rust bucket st824 clears better
my 414 cc 20ft lbs 28 inch doest need to downshift like a car from 5th to 2nd 
thats what you gear selector does on the blower imo
the higher the better as shaw has shown
as honda has shown with there higher imp speeds then ariens


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## Town (Jan 31, 2015)

YSHSfan said:


> Honda uses a 3” pulley on most models for the impeller belt and 3.5” on the 1332 (since the GX390 runs at slightly lower rpm).
> I’ll have to check on the impeller pulley side but the HSS with the 13.5 impeller is about 2” larger than the HS series with 12” and 10” impellers.


Thank you for the info. 

If I increase my engine pulley from 2.75" to 3" and keep my rpm at 3700 and impeller pulley at 9" then my impeller rpm would increase to 1233 rpm and impeller tip speed to 4516 ft per min. Since the Ariens engine pulley is a machined unit for two belts and a spacer, increasing pulley size to 3" will be a challenge. I have an Ariens Pro model engine pulley with the same 2.75" diameter so perhaps a machine shop could increase it to 3" diameter pulleys.


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## Town (Jan 31, 2015)

YSHSfan said:


> In case some of you may not know our forum member Shaw351 has built a few Ariens 924 series with 14” 6 bladed impellers with their impeller rpm boosted to 1800. This gives an impeller tip speed of ~6600 ft/min. I believe there are a few videos of them in action.
> He has stated no issues so far on any of them, but he does modify the augers gearbox key way.


Do you know what engine power is driving that impressive speed for Shaw351? Do 6 blades improve performance since manufacturers have generally reduced the number of impeller blades rather than increase them?


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## E350 (Apr 21, 2015)

To me this is the most interesting thread on this forum of all time. Thank you *JLawrence*! I suggest that it be made a sticky. 

Because there are many of us who are in the process of or thinking of designing and making our own snowblowers. In my case, modifying an ATV blower to be wider to work on my 6x6 700 EFI Polaris Ranger UTV.

On a related note. I have only owned two Honda cars in my life. Both 1991 (final year for model) Honda CRX Si. I sold the first one to buy an even more pristine second one (which was later stolen and found stripped). In those days at least (think of the original _"Fast and Furious"_ movie) they were high rev-ing engines. I learned the meaning of the saying: _"Honda is an excellent engine company which makes great cars."_

It seems to me, that snowblower design is built all around the engine's torque and rpm capabilities. So it does not surprise me in the least that Honda snowblower engines are high rev-ing with great "tip speed" to the impeller.


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## JLawrence08648 (Jan 15, 2017)

E350 said:


> To me this is the most interesting thread on this forum of all time. Thank you *JLawrence*! I suggest that it be made a sticky.


Thank you but I don't think it should be made a sticky post. I think my other threads I started - cleaning & rebuilding a carburetor and the one about ultrasonic cleaners should be considered to be made a sticky post as they can serve more people.

I wanted to increase the throwing efficiency of snowblowers, that's why my post last week of increasing the chute length. Then this post I thought would get some ideas churning to make snowblowers more efficient throwing vehicles. And again this thread reinforced there are some very sharp people on here that are thinkers. Thinkers make the best diagnosticians. 

I try to come up with ideas for threads that are different and out of the normal questions but yet beneficial to all or most. I did a post on why snowblowers have a difficult time with the EOD and possible things to make it better. Again, thank you for your kind words and reinforcement, and no snowblowers were hurt writing designing this thread, and no person was hurt injured or bashed, Whew!


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## drmerdp (Feb 9, 2014)

YSHSfan said:


> In case some of you may not know our forum member Shaw351 has built a few Ariens 924 series with 14” 6 bladed impellers with their impeller rpm boosted to 1800. This gives an impeller tip speed of ~6600 ft/min. I believe there are a few videos of them in action.
> He has stated no issues so far on any of them, but he does modify the augers gearbox key way.


Using a laser tach my HSS impeller is spinning at 1420rpms. 

~345mm (13.58”) impeller w/impeller kit. 

84ft/s, 5040ft/min, or 57mph

Throwing distance is crazy, Top distance spec for a stock machine is 56ft, Im definitely exceeding that, buy a bunch. 

1800rpm impeller speed, holy cow, that distance is likely more of a nuesence then anything.


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## YSHSfan (Jun 25, 2014)

Town said:


> Do you know what engine power is driving that impressive speed for Shaw351? Do 6 blades improve performance since manufacturers have generally reduced the number of impeller blades rather than increase them?


He stated that on the 36” he has a 16hp Honda clone engine and on a 32” he has a 342cc engine. 
Hopefully he’ll chime in and tell us about the other modified units.

IMO I think more blades do improve performance (but increases production cost). I look at it as a water pump impeller and I know from experience that a water pump impeller with more blades moves a higher volume.


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## Town (Jan 31, 2015)

YSHSfan said:


> He stated that on the 36” he has a 16hp Honda clone engine and on a 32” he has a 342cc engine.
> Hopefully he’ll chime in and tell us about the other modified units.
> 
> IMO I think more blades do improve performance (but increases production cost). I look at it as a water pump impeller and I know from experience that a water pump impeller with more blades moves a higher volume.


Thanks again for your info. 

Back in 2015 you showed me a pic of an Ariens 14" 6 bladed impeller in post #5 here: http://www.snowblowerforum.com/foru...-3-6-blades-14-impeller-best-performance.html so you now know it has better performance. I notice in the lower pic the impeller blades appear to be not at 90 degrees to the shaft but at an angle that would move snow centrifugally toward the outer edge. That seems a brilliant design. I checked a couple of sites and the 14" 6 bladed Ariens impeller for me is about $160 while the 14" 3 bladed impeller is about $60. So price seems to be a factor.

Thanks for sharing your expertise.


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## YSHSfan (Jun 25, 2014)

One aspect that has me thinking is the fact that a Honda HSS1332ATD has a throwing distance spec of 56' while a Yamaha YS1028J has a spec of 55'

The Honda has an overall distance of ~ 42" from the center of the impeller housing to the end of the deflector while the Yamaha has ~ 37" (5" shorter).

Since I do not have the Yamaha impeller speed spec I wonder myself how much faster it spins compared to the Honda?

Likely what's also a factor there is the resin liners on the impeller housing, impeller housing exit and chute, which produce less friction and let the snow achieve a higher speed. Maybe.....?

:blowerhug:


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## Town (Jan 31, 2015)

I do not know of any relationship between throwing distance and chute length. A faster impeller speed due to increased engine speed (3450 engine rpm to 3700 engine rpm) will increase distance thrown and performance in slush. For my environment throwing distance can be a negative since windows are in reach of a 60ft throw, so I have to be careful. The manufacturers all quote tons per hour as a rated output and the higher the value the quicker I get finished my driveways so that is all important. 

It seems you cannot fudge output volume since a ton of light snow is the same as a ton of heavy snow in terms of tons per hour. Yamaha rates itself the lowest of the 3 with Honda and Ariens close. Since Honda seems to be optimized in stock form, there is lots of room for the Ariens to improve on its impeller design, impeller speed to increase output tons per hour. 

What I have seen in videos of older machines with short chutes is that the snow distribution is all over the place. This makes seeing cars or people in the area difficult so you have to stop and wait for clearing before continuing. This slows output considerably. At the other end of the spectrum the tall and profiled chutes keep the snow collected and streaming so you can see people or cars in your way to keep output high by only stopping when needed.


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## RIT333 (Feb 6, 2014)

Myself, I wonder if there is a published standard that manufacturers use to quote tons/hr and throwing distance. Could just be a liars game that no one knows how to not get caught, or they do know how to not get caught. Just my suspicion.


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

I suspect that they each came up with their own tests, both for throwing distance, and tons/hour. And that specs should *only* be compared within a given brand. Maybe even just within a given brand *and* style (single stage vs 2 stage). I think they should only be considered as relative indications of performance within a lineup. 

And honestly, we probably didn't need a tons/hour spec to tell us that a 400cc 32" machine will move more snow than a 250cc 24" machine. 

I do think it's meaningless that Yamaha shows a slightly different throwing distance vs Honda, for instance. I wouldn't try to read anything into that, regarding their relative chute designs effectiveness, etc.


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## YSHSfan (Jun 25, 2014)

Town said:


> I do not know of any relationship between throwing distance and chute length.


Threre is definitely a relationship between chute length and throwing distance. 
A few members have upgraded their Ariens short chutes (mostly on 10000 series) with the 'holy grail' extra long chute and it makes an impressive difference.
Check the second comment by Jackmels on this following thread (he's probably the most Ariens experience forum member).

http://www.snowblowerforum.com/foru...ale/119089-holy-grail-ariens-tall-chutes.html

The shorter the chute is the sooner the snow disperses onto a wide stream and can not achieve a long distance. 
On the other hand, the longer the chute is the longer it keeps the snow concentrated into a tight stream and therefore can achieve a longer throwing distance.

I look at it as a gun with small refillable led ammunitions cartridge. 
If you used the cartridge on a short barrel gun you could not aim far (the ammunitions will just spread and not reach a great distance), but if you use the same type cartridge on an extra long barrel gun, you could aim 3+ times the distance as it will keep them together for a longer time and they will follow that path.

:blowerhug:


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## tpenfield (Feb 24, 2015)

Longer gun barrel is a good analogy. Keeping the snow within the confines of the chute for a longer amount of time (distance) must give it a greater trajectory speed, along with some other benefits. As soon as the snow clears the chute, the snow starts dispersing and slowing down.


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## leonz (Dec 12, 2014)

YSHSfan said:


> Threre is definitely a relationship between chute length and throwing distance.
> A few members have upgraded their Ariens short chutes (mostly on 10000 series) with the 'holy grail' extra long chute and it makes an impressive difference.
> Check the second comment by Jackmels on this following thread (he's probably the most Ariens experience forum member).
> 
> ...





======================================================================


The other very large benefit of the Yamaha 1028 and 1332 design is that the impeller discharge housing has a convex(curved outward) opening which in combination cupped portion of the impellers and the Teflon lined portion of the impeller housing allow the snow to be ejected at a high rate of speed through the Teflon casting in the discharge portion of the impeller housing which allows the snow and ice to continue to accelerate as it exits the impeller housing and the Teflon slick sheet liner in the chute also allows it to continue upward at this high speed to the spout and then outward. 

:3tens::bowing::behindsofa:


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## Town (Jan 31, 2015)

YSHSfan said:


> Threre is definitely a relationship between chute length and throwing distance.
> A few members have upgraded their Ariens short chutes (mostly on 10000 series) with the 'holy grail' extra long chute and it makes an impressive difference.
> Check the second comment by Jackmels on this following thread (he's probably the most Ariens experience forum member).
> 
> ...


Not sure if the chutes discussed in that link are the same as mine or not.

I measured my chute in a straight line from the center line of the impeller housing (impeller blade horizontal) to the tip of the chute in highest position and it is 35" (8" from impeller to top of impeller housing, 20" to top of fixed part of chute and 7" for the deflector) so I am well short of the 37" Yamaha and 42" Honda. It has a pronounced curve so following the curve would make it longer. The inside of the chute base is 6" wide and the inside of the deflector is 5 5/8" so there is not a lot of length or taper in my chute system. This chute arrangement provides adequate control over keeping the snow bunched together so it does not disperse and cause a whiteout where I cannot see pedestrians or cars. I like the double deflector on the Honda so I would like to add that feature to my chute. How long is that deflector and the width at both ends?

By the way I ordered the 14" 6 bladed impeller from my dealer today CAD$177 so not so bad compared to US prices.


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## YSHSfan (Jun 25, 2014)

Town said:


> I like the double deflector on the Honda so I would like to add that feature to my chute. How long is that deflector and the width at both ends?


I'll have to take inside measurements on the HSS (I don't have the Yamaha any longer).
Both of them add ~ 11.5" with both deflectors.
If you decide to add that feature you'll also have to design a system to make them turn appropriately.

If you can post a pic of the chute that your Ariens have.


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## YSHSfan (Jun 25, 2014)

Town said:


> How long is that deflector and the width at both ends?


The deflectors on the HSS1332ATD have a length of 5-3/4" each. The center deflector has an inside width of ~4-7/8" and the end deflector has an inside width of ~5"
:blowerhug:


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## Town (Jan 31, 2015)

YSHSfan said:


> I'll have to take inside measurements on the HSS (I don't have the Yamaha any longer).
> Both of them add ~ 11.5" with both deflectors.
> If you decide to add that feature you'll also have to design a system to make them turn appropriately.
> 
> If you can post a pic of the chute that your Ariens have.





YSHSfan said:


> The deflectors on the HSS1332ATD have a length of 5-3/4" each. The center deflector has an inside width of ~4-7/8" and the end deflector has an inside width of ~5"
> :blowerhug:


Thanks for the help. Here are pics of the chute, a general view and then a view of deflector control:


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## YSHSfan (Jun 25, 2014)

Town said:


> Thanks for the help. Here are pics of the chute, a general view and then a view of deflector control:


If you widen the center Honda deflector you'll be able to make it work, but you'll also have to tinker with 'synchronized' pivoting mechanism for both deflectors as well as the hinges and cable control.

If shipping wasn't so prohibited on it, I'll be willing to tinker (in the off-season) with the chute and deflector of your unit and 'design/build' what's needed for it to have a dual deflector.... :smiley-confused009::grin:


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## Town (Jan 31, 2015)

YSHSfan said:


> If you widen the center Honda deflector you'll be able to make it work, but you'll also have to tinker with 'synchronized' pivoting mechanism for both deflectors as well as the hinges and cable control.
> 
> If shipping wasn't so prohibited on it, I'll be willing to tinker (in the off-season) with the chute and deflector of your unit and 'design/build' what's needed for it to have a dual deflector.... :smiley-confused009::grin:


Thank you for the offer, and your help. Transporting that size of a unit would be an issue. Somewhere in this site is a thread showing the installation of the double deflector on a Honda. I will take a look at that again. I think it will help in directing the snow stream where required especially under windy conditions.


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## 1132le (Feb 23, 2017)

Town said:


> Thanks for the help. Here are pics of the chute, a general view and then a view of deflector control:


Town is that the stock chute/cable setup?
i thought they didnt change the the cablegoing down on the flapper untill 2017 2018


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## Town (Jan 31, 2015)

Hi 1132le,

Yes it is the standard setup for the 2015 model (2014/15). The earlier setup had the cable upside down so water penetrates the cable and sits at the low cable point and freezes. Such a pain on my 2004 11/30 Craftsman (that looks like an Husqvarna).


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## Lunta (Dec 14, 2017)

tpenfield said:


> Longer gun barrel is a good analogy. Keeping the snow within the confines of the chute for a longer amount of time (distance) must give it a greater trajectory speed, along with some other benefits. As soon as the snow clears the chute, the snow starts dispersing and slowing down.


Longer barrelled guns can give increased velocity, but only where the extra length is required to achieve the complete (or optimum) burn of the propellent/powder, thus providing more power. Once snow is already in the chute, the "power" it has received from the impeller has already been received. So unless there is another "propellent" source in the chute, then velocity can't be increasing due to chute length.

The downside of a longer barrel (or chute) is that there is increased friction, which can only reduce velocity.

Finally, and taking a shotgun as an example, a longer barrelled gun will keep the lead shot together for longer, but the difference is negligible.

e.g. a shotgun with 32" barrels keeps shot together for longer than a shotgun with 28" barrels. But the difference is only 4" = negligible.

So adding 4" to an existing chute will keep snow together for an additional 4" (before it starts to disperse". So the maximum "increased throw" is 4".


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## tdipaul (Jul 11, 2015)

tpenfield said:


> Longer gun barrel is a good analogy. Keeping the snow within the confines of the chute for a longer amount of time (distance) must give it a greater trajectory speed, along with some other benefits. As soon as the snow clears the chute, the snow starts dispersing and slowing down.


I would think the snow starts slowing down when it leaves the tip of the impeller.

like a piston right after ignition

it does not speed up on its trip down the cylinder

.


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## tdipaul (Jul 11, 2015)

Lunta said:


> Longer barrelled guns can give increased velocity, but only where the extra length is required to achieve the complete (or optimum) burn of the propellent/powder, thus providing more power. Once snow is already in the chute, the "power" it has received from the impeller has already been received. So unless there is another "propellent" source in the chute, then velocity can't be increasing due to chute length.
> 
> The downside of a longer barrel (or chute) is that there is increased friction, which can only reduce velocity.
> 
> ...


+1. 

big distance comes from the impeller
.


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## leonz (Dec 12, 2014)

2 excellent examples of good snow casters:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xA7UJ-UBA0


Steamboat Springs, Colorado, USA: A ZAUGG SNOW BEAST and ZAUGG BULLDOG digging into snow piles.


I just played it on the screen and it says its unavailable GGGRRRRRR


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## JLawrence08648 (Jan 15, 2017)

leonz said:


> 2 excellent examples of good snow casters:
> Steamboat Springs, Colorado, USA
> 
> www.youtube.com/watch?v=_A7UJ-ubAO


Video not found.


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## leonz (Dec 12, 2014)

This is a different user that came up and should work 


www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fwimz9iDCw


it apparently will not upload to the forum; I believe we have had this issue before but it is on youtube on this link, sigh, all I want is to have fun with snow blowers!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## tpenfield (Feb 24, 2015)

It is fairly common knowledge that the longer chutes throw further and not by merely the extra distance of the chute. So, there must be some science that would account for the increased distance.

I am wondering if there are some good examples that folks can cite, where the difference in the machine was merely the chute and the impeller, etc were the same. One that I can think of is putting the Toro 521 chute on the Toro 3521. Maybe the older vs. newer Ariens ST824 machines is another example. . . :icon-shrug:


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## YSHSfan (Jun 25, 2014)

tpenfield said:


> It is fairly common knowledge that the longer chutes throw further and not by merely the extra distance of the chute. So, there must be some science that would account for the increased distance.


It won't likely increase just the added length of the chute but a ratio of the added length to the initial throwing distance.

Yes long throwing distance is a combination of impeller tip speed and length and shape of chute.. but a longer chute will increase throwing distance.

Take a Honda HSS1332ATD and install a 14" long, 6" wide chute and you will never achieve the 56" distance, install the stock 33" long and you will.

Take an Ariens ST1032 with the very short chute and see how far it throws, install a 'holy grail' chute and you'll clearly see the difference.

I may have to do this and take videos next season as I'll likely have what's needed for the tests.

:blowerhug::snow48:


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## Lunta (Dec 14, 2017)

tpenfield said:


> It is fairly common knowledge that the longer chutes throw further and not by merely the extra distance of the chute. So, there must be some science that would account for the increased distance.


So why not fit a 30m/30yard chute, and launch snow in to the next county? Nope, of course not, that would be just silly.

At the other end of the scale is "no chute", which is equally silly.

I think the requirement is for "enough chute" to make full use of the existing "propellent" from the impeller and guide the stream to a reasonable distance. Once that optimum chute length has been reached, a longer chute will not throw further, "common knowledge" or not.


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## Town (Jan 31, 2015)

Seems that shorter chutes do not have much of a profile shape, they just dump the snow into the air with a high dispersion rate. The longer chutes have a smooth profile that guides the snow into a compact shape and eject the snow in a narrower stream that does not disperse quickly. It seems keeping the snow in a compact form is better. The profile angle of these longer chutes are not the same, some are more vertical and some have a lower slope angle. I think the Honda is more upright than the Ariens with the quick turn chute. The Honda has the gear drive at the base giving freedom to the chute angle while the Ariens has to have a lower slope angle because the chute turning point is high up on the chute and directly over the vertical center line of the chute. 

It also appears from measurements provided here that the Honda has a much longer chute (7") over the Ariens and progressively narrowing chute from 6" to 5" (double deflector) while the Ariens chute is 6" to 5 5/8" the trajectory angle would seem to be higher on the Honda. Yet maximum throwing distance and output volume are about the same? Ariens compensates for chute differences with more engine power and bigger impeller size. 

I like the ability to more accurately place the snow with the Honda double deflector to smooth the way more gently. That would increase length and taper while keeping the chute geometry stock since it would be just about impossible for me to change.


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## leonz (Dec 12, 2014)

I AM SO glad it is snowing again!!!

I would love to see Yamaha, Yanmar, WADO, FUJI and others make use of the Pronovost TRC models design with the rotating impeller housing that bypasses the chute and spout at full left or full right discharge as this would eliminate so many problems as the impellers discharge of heavy wet snows bypasses the chute and spout.

The End Of Driveway Monster would never rear its ugly head again. Yardman had a very good idea for their snow birds and it worked well BUT our red 8 horse Briggs & Stratton powered unit from 1969? only had one speed in forward and one speed in reverse and it rode up on dense piles of snow. 

Here are two very good short videos of the TRC in operation, Pronovost has more TRC videos on their home page.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjz+ZoLT_x4

www.youtube.com/watch?v=0H9KTOiiSxE


GGGRRRRR, UGH, youtube does not want to play nice BUT the video is there.


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## tpenfield (Feb 24, 2015)

Lunta said:


> So why not fit a 30m/30yard chute, and launch snow in to the next county? Nope, of course not, that would be just silly.
> 
> At the other end of the scale is "no chute", which is equally silly.
> 
> I think the requirement is for "enough chute" to make full use of the existing "propellent" from the impeller and guide the stream to a reasonable distance. Once that optimum chute length has been reached, a longer chute will not throw further, "common knowledge" or not.


I'm just wondering if anyone can explain the 'science' behind the fact that the longer chutes contribute to a longer throwing distance :smiley-confused013: . . . and understanding the science, there is probably an optimum chute length, and geometry, and going beyond that optimum results in less distance.


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

Well, if you apply the same principles as apply with water, reducing the size of the outlet increases the velocity of the stream . . . as in a hose nozzle. Far more friction in a blower chute, I would think, but the principle should still apply . . . concentrate the outlet stream and gain solidity in the stream and velocity, at the cost of additional friction. This doesn't really apply directly to length, but to the fact that the longer chutes tend to concentrate the stream, and the longer the chute is, the less energy lost in the concentration since less sever changes in stream path.


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## leonz (Dec 12, 2014)

In pnuematic terms it is referred to to as "dense phase conveying" but rather than a solid it is a semi solid and every thing that is following the first shredded amount of ice and snow is being pushed by the semi solid snow and ice behind it up and out through the chute and spout.
The same set of physics applies to small depth snow falls where in the material is scooped up and dances around and out of the cross auger hopper until there is enough material to be ejected by the impeller through the chute and spout which in solids conveying with a "high velocity low pressure air stream" is called "dilute phase" conveying of solid material BUT in this case the air velocity is much much much lower as there is a very low amount of restriction due to the semi solid being the snow pack that is being heated up by simple friction and ejected at the same time. The material is a semi solid until and after it is ejected from the impeller and chute of the snow caster. 

You would need a rotary lobe or vane type blower in pressure service the size of a volkswagen rabbit with an 8 cylinder diesel engine for power and the 6 inch piping to accomplish the same job if the impeller which would become an "airlock multivane valve did the same job.

As Tim Taylor used to say MORE POWER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! VRRRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Adding:
The basic design of a single stage blower is much easier to use and repair but the current models are a bit slower to clear dense snow pack as they do not have enough power for heavy dense snow pack where the two stage units perform two separate tasks with one drive system using an extended drive shaft from the traction wheel(on most models to the driven worm gear to bevel spur gear box that powers the cross augers that cut up and convey the snow pack to the impeller to be discharged.


IF a walk behind self propelled chain driven single stage snow blower with a high horsepower engine 12 HP+ was used to rotate the single stage snow blower rotor it would have zero difficulty in clearing snow pack of any depth.


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## Town (Jan 31, 2015)

Just an update on my search for the optimum impeller tip speed of 4,500 ft per minute per @YSHSfan research into Honda snow throwing performance.

Last season (2018/19) my machine had a 6 blade impeller and stock pulley and ran at 3,700 engine rpm and 1,121 impeller rpm and worked great, much better than 3 blade stock impeller. The impeller tip speed was 4,106 ft per minute (47 mph) using @YSHSfan formula. Later in the season I increased engine rpm to 3,900 rpm so 1,181 impeller rpm (calculated) and 4,326 ft per min (49 mph) impeller tip speed with a slight improvement in performance. 

I recently upgraded the dual crank pulley to 3.25" using a Browning 2AK32x1 pulley (recommended by @legarem) that a machine shop modified to spec for the Pro 2.75" pulley. The actual working diameter of the pulley is 3.0" and the 8.5" impeller pulley has a working diameter of 8.25" (for calculation purposes using a formula). So with an engine rpm of 3,925 (laser measured) and an impeller rpm of 1,447 (laser measured) the impeller tip speed is 5,300 ft per min (60 mph) for the 2019/20 season.

With the stock 3 blade impeller there is hardly any air movement up through the chute. I notice a huge increase in air speed (force) from the chute using the 6 blade impeller compared to the 3 blade impeller at same engine speed. And another huge increase in wind force with the 3.25" engine pulley. So it seems the snow moving capability of a snowblower impeller follows closely the air flow of the impeller.


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

Cool! Thanks for sharing your findings. Hopefully the new pulley won't overload the engine. At some point (blades & RPM), you could use it as a room fan, but the engine would stall trying to handle 6" of snow


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## Town (Jan 31, 2015)

We received the second snowfall of the season yesterday and last night, just about 7" on my driveway and 18" at EOD from sidewalk plow and road plow. Fairly light, with some moisture and -8C. When I turned off the choke I accidentally lowered the throttle somewhat so the first pass was terrible, had to use 1st gear and everything felt weak. Turned the throttle up to full and the machine came alive. It blows the EOD in 3rd and the driveways in 4th or 5th. So the throughput is very good and on a par with last year. It can blow snow straight up and over the two SUVs parked in neighbours driveways. I don't think it throws snow any farther than last year and throughput is about the same.

An interesting experiment, but on the first outing there was no noticeable improvement. So I will keep the setup installed and see what happens, but so far not really worth the effort and expense. A 2.75" pulley and 6 blade impeller and running 3,900 rpm is every bit as good as 3.25" pulley and 6 blade impeller and running 3,900 rpm.

Just wanted to update those thinking of making a similar change what my experience is on one snowfall.


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## melson (Feb 9, 2015)

According to an older Ariens service manual I have the impeller diameter for models 1124, 1128 and 1332 is 12 inches; rotational speed is 1310. The specs for model 1336 is impeller diameter of 14 inches and rotational speed of 1140.


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## Hawk (Oct 21, 2019)

I’m skeptical about the claim of higher RPM, but who knows. I must say that impeller RPM is one issue, but the design of the impeller also makes a difference.


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## harry398 (Jun 22, 2021)

Town said:


> We received the second snowfall of the season yesterday and last night, just about 7" on my driveway and 18" at EOD from sidewalk plow and road plow. Fairly light, with some moisture and -8C. When I turned off the choke I accidentally lowered the throttle somewhat so the first pass was terrible, had to use 1st gear and everything felt weak. Turned the throttle up to full and the machine came alive. It blows the EOD in 3rd and the driveways in 4th or 5th. So the throughput is very good and on a par with last year. It can blow snow straight up and over the two SUVs parked in neighbours driveways. I don't think it throws snow any farther than last year and throughput is about the same.
> 
> An interesting experiment, but on the first outing there was no noticeable improvement. So I will keep the setup installed and see what happens, but so far not really worth the effort and expense. A 2.75" pulley and 6 blade impeller and running 3,900 rpm is every bit as good as 3.25" pulley and 6 blade impeller and running 3,900 rpm.
> 
> Just wanted to update those thinking of making a similar change what my experience is on one snowfall.


great thread.
makes sense, the more blades...the more air-snow is moved. 
also a wider blade.
also a larger diameter impeller.

I play with the leaf blowers, Little Wonders...and its very similar.

I am comparing my MTD 10-29 with a 12" 3 blade with a impeller mod....(which is a F'ing animal--but doesnt throw 50ft-but it blows through anything I have thrown at it.) to a ariens 1128 I just picked up...12" 4 blade impeller....3.5 vs 2.5 wide impeller(on the flat area) and a larger output chute 6' vs 5" on MTD....also a taller chute. I slapped mudflaps on 2 blades of the ariens and im curious how its going to perform........5 months from now...LOL if it doesnt outperform the MTD, ill be shocked.

I cant badmouth the mtd pro....its a brute, but the ariens is superior in materials-craftsmanship-ease of maintenance ....924121...of course more $$$


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