# The evil Ariens fairy must have come in the night...



## TheHolyCannoli (Nov 19, 2013)

About 2 weeks ago I started up my blower after being in storage for the Spring/Summer. Fuel was from last season (mid-March) with Marine Sta-Bil. I changed the oil with Mobil One 5w-30 and it fired up on the first pull like a champ.

Now, 2 weeks later, I decide to replace the spark plug. I pull the old, check the gap on the new on to about 0.29, and re-install. NOTHING.
-I pull the plug, close the fuel line, and pull the cord a few times. I can see fuel spraying out. Recheck the plug gap, let the machine sit for about 15min, and I try again. NOTHING.
-Swap the old plug back. NOTHING.
-Clean both plugs, pull the cord a few times to clear things out. Reinstall the plugs and try again. NOTHING.
-Repeated all steps above with the fuel line off and with/without choke on. NOTHING.

Any advice? :huh:


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## jtclays (Sep 24, 2010)

Any chance the key isn't on or something got knocked loose?

Regardless of how confident you are in stabilizer, I'd shatt can the fuel and start new, then.
Did you check for spark while having any of the plugs attached after FTF?
Be careful to cover the empty spark plug hole with a towel while you check for spark. Then
Check your oil to make sure it's not way over full and smells like gas. Could have sent a glunk of fuel line sludge along the system and flooding out. Now you're chasing more fuel into the block with no spark, or flooded????


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## Kiss4aFrog (Nov 3, 2013)

Try the old plug again ??


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## nt40lanman (Dec 31, 2012)

Need spark and a wet plug. Which one is missing?


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## TheHolyCannoli (Nov 19, 2013)

Key is in place. I can't imagine anything being knocked loose as I haven't moved the blower since I started it 2 weeks ago.

Oil doesn't have any gas smell to it.

How exactly do I go about verifying that there is a spark?


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## nwcove (Mar 2, 2015)

TheHolyCannoli said:


> Key is in place. I can't imagine anything being knocked loose as I haven't moved the blower since I started it 2 weeks ago.
> 
> Oil doesn't have any gas smell to it.
> 
> How exactly do I go about verifying that there is a spark?


take the spare plug that you have and put the plug wire on it, ground it against a non painted headbolt etc, turn the engine over as if you were trying to start it, watch for spark.....it should be nice and blue, and you may even hear it snap.


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## jtclays (Sep 24, 2010)

Pull the plug adapter and then remove plug, stick the plug back in the adapter and set it against the block or head (use the towel i mentioned before, over the empty sparkplug hole) pull over the engine in an area dark enough to see if you are getting spark. Do it several times if you don't think it is showing. It should show nice a blue cross over. If not, try a different plug (any plug from a running machine in the garage will work for this test).
Got spark? No?, it's not abnormal to see a fail at that **** safety key. It breaks the ground from the ignition to .....well ground. If it fails, or isn't "clicked" all the way in (try holding it while you pull the rope or run the electric) or gets bumped, you will not see spark. LCT engine or Briggs?


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## jtclays (Sep 24, 2010)

If you have spark and it still won't fire, the float may be stuck shut. Little shot of PB Blaster or raw fuel directly in the plug hole may get you're vacuum going. Also make sure the new plug is clicked up into the holder firm. Try the electric start and wiggly the spark plug holder while you do. Just spit balling what i used to get neighbors going or finding out the new plug was bad.


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## TheHolyCannoli (Nov 19, 2013)

Not seeing any spark with either of the plugs. The key is in the ignition, I removed, replaced, removed, and replaced again. It feels as though it is engaging. I also checked the wires behind the ignition and they look to be firmly in place as well.

LCT Engine (AX291)


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## Jackmels (Feb 18, 2013)

Points are Dirty or Pitted badly.


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## 43128 (Feb 14, 2014)

i dont think its old enough to have points


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## TheHolyCannoli (Nov 19, 2013)

Jackmels said:


> Points are Dirty or Pitted badly.





43128 said:


> i dont think its old enough to have points


I'll admit I have no clue what "points" are in relation to a snowblower, but for a machine that has _maybe_ 10hrs under its belt, that has been very well maintained, I'm unclear how anything could be dirty or pitted badly enough for the engine to not start.


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## jtclays (Sep 24, 2010)

The AX291 has an issue with wiring for the key switch. For further help contact Kiss4Frog.


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## db9938 (Nov 17, 2013)

removed: my question was already answered. I do agree of the wiring theory, being the problem.


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## TheHolyCannoli (Nov 19, 2013)

db9938 said:


> Did you put in the safety "key" back in, or might it have grown legs in the summer months?


Key is in place


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## db9938 (Nov 17, 2013)

TheHolyCannoli said:


> Key is in place


Sorry, you probably were posting, while I was editing. 

Do you own a multi-meter?


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## TheHolyCannoli (Nov 19, 2013)

db9938 said:


> Sorry, you probably were posting, while I was editing.
> 
> Do you own a multi-meter?


I do have a multimeter.

What is this wiring issue that has been mentioned? I PM'ed Kiss4Frog regarding the issue, just awaiting a response.


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## db9938 (Nov 17, 2013)

I'm not exactly sure, but I would check to see if there continuity between the two pieces that the "key/plug" separates.


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## TheHolyCannoli (Nov 19, 2013)

db9938 said:


> I'm not exactly sure, but I would check to see if there continuity between the two pieces that the "key/plug" separates.


There is continuity...with AND without the key in place if I test between the terminals behind the key switch. No continuity between either terminal and the metal inside the plug holder.


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## Kiss4aFrog (Nov 3, 2013)

If you do have continuity with and without the key in place then the switch is grounding the circuit. When the circuit is grounded it kills the spark.

Try to remove the wire going to the key and make sure it's just sitting in the air or give it a wrap with wire anything to keep it from grounding and see if you get your spark back.

When you insert the key you separate the contact and you OPEN the circuit and that allows the coil to produce a spark. When you pull the key out the two pieces of metal make contact and ground the coil preventing it from producing spark.


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## Smolenski7 (Nov 24, 2010)

This machine is way too new for something to have gone wrong this badly so quickly. There has to be something very simple going on that is not being taken into account.

I would personally would check every connection, maybe something came lose somewhere. I'd start under the dash looking at every wire. I would follow each wire until it made it's final connection, then I would make sure that connection was tight.

How about the fuel shut-off? If there was fuel in the line a few weeks ago before you started it, it would have fired and started without issue. Then the next time you went to start it, nothing. Ask me how I know this.

I really think it is something simple.


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## TheHolyCannoli (Nov 19, 2013)

So I pulled out the key-switch assembly. I disconnect the terminals at the back and made sure they were not contacting any metal...there is STILL continuity between the 2 terminals. I held the multimeter in place and tried manipulating all other wires in the area, including the plug holder. Not even the faintest change in continuity.

I just don't see how something could have physically changed from 2 weeks ago when I haven't moved the machine. The only possibility is that maybe (and I still think this is a long shot) I damaged the plug holder/wire when swapping the plugs. I'm pretty gentle when I do these things, so I really can't see that happening.


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## TheHolyCannoli (Nov 19, 2013)

Smolenski7 said:


> How about the fuel shut-off? If there was fuel in the line a few weeks ago before you started it, it would have fired and started without issue. Then the next time you went to start it, nothing. Ask me how I know this.


I don't think lack of fuel is the issue. I've pulled the plug so many times today during my attempts, and it was wet on two separate occasions.


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## ELaw (Feb 4, 2015)

TheHolyCannoli said:


> So I pulled out the key-switch assembly. I disconnect the terminals at the back and made sure they were not contacting any metal...there is STILL continuity between the 2 terminals. I held the multimeter in place and tried manipulating all other wires in the area, including the plug holder. Not even the faintest change in continuity.
> 
> I just don't see how something could have physically changed from 2 weeks ago when I haven't moved the machine. The only possibility is that maybe (and I still think this is a long shot) I damaged the plug holder/wire when swapping the plugs. I'm pretty gentle when I do these things, so I really can't see that happening.


Sounds like you're on the right track. On most every engine, grounding a wire from the magneto stops the engine, so what you're looking at presumably is a wire from the magneto and a ground wire.

What you need to do is trace the wires back to their origin... well really just the magneto wire. So trace both, and once you've identified which is the ground wire, examine the other one closely to see if it's shorting to ground somewhere. If you follow it all the way back to the magneto (which may require some minor disassembly of the engine) and don't find a short, it could be the magneto itself.

BTW while I'm an old fart and tend to call all such things "magnetos", most likely it has some sort of CDI module but the troubleshooting procedure is the same.


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## TheHolyCannoli (Nov 19, 2013)

ELaw said:


> Sounds like you're on the right track. On most every engine, grounding a wire from the magneto stops the engine, so what you're looking at presumably is a wire from the magneto and a ground wire.
> 
> What you need to do is trace the wires back to their origin... well really just the magneto wire. So trace both, and once you've identified which is the ground wire, examine the other one closely to see if it's shorting to ground somewhere. If you follow it all the way back to the magneto (which may require some minor disassembly of the engine) and don't find a short, it could be the magneto itself.
> 
> BTW while I'm an old fart and tend to call all such things "magnetos", most likely it has some sort of CDI module but the troubleshooting procedure is the same.


Oh boy...this sounds like a job that is out of my scope. Anybody have an idea if this would be covered under warranty?


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## skutflut (Oct 16, 2015)

TheHolyCannoli said:


> Oh boy...this sounds like a job that is out of my scope. Anybody have an idea if this would be covered under warranty?


You can try one more thing. 

REMOVE the wires from the key switch, and measure from each wire to ground (the block). One should be grounded, and the other should NOT BE grounded. 

If you find both wires still go to ground, the wire to the coil has some damage or the coil itself is defective. 

If one wire is NOT grounded, see if you get s a spark with both wires still disconnected. (Make sure you put a bit of tape on the connectors so they don't accidentally ground if they are resting on metal. Best not to actually put the plug in and start the engine at this point since you will have no way to stop it except by turning off the fuel.

If you get a spark, you need to replace the key switch which sounds like it might be shorted internally, which is grounding the spark, in other words, telling the engine to not go, key or not. 

As far as something changing from two weeks ago, single cylinder engines create a lot of vibration. Ever notice after blowing snow for an hour how YOU are still vibrating after you have shut down the machine and gone in for coffee? Vibration can cause problems, loose nuts and bolts, wire insulation to be damaged if its too close to a bit of sharp metal, plastic oil drain plugs in engines to come loose and back themselves right out of the machine and dump all you oil on the ground when you are not looking, all kinds of things.


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## TheHolyCannoli (Nov 19, 2013)

skutflut said:


> You can try one more thing.
> 
> REMOVE the wires from the key switch, and measure from each wire to ground (the block). One should be grounded, and the other should NOT BE grounded. see if you get s a spark with both wires disconnected. (Make sure you put a bit of tape on the connectors so they don't accidentally ground if they are resting on metal. If you get a spark, you need to replace the key switch which sounds like it might be shorted internally, which is grounding the spark, in other words, telling the engine to not go, key or not.


This is what I already did. Completely removed the key switch and pulled the metal tabs/terminals out of the plastic. I saw no spark. I guess the only thing I haven't tried is actually installing the plug and trying to start the engine with the key switch disassembled...how obvious is the spark when viewing it at the spark plug? Maybe its there but I'm not seeing it?


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## skutflut (Oct 16, 2015)

TheHolyCannoli said:


> This is what I already did. Completely removed the key switch and pulled the metal tabs/terminals out of the plastic. I saw no spark. I guess the only thing I haven't tried is actually installing the plug and trying to start the engine with the key switch disassembled...how obvious is the spark when viewing it at the spark plug? Maybe its there but I'm not seeing it?


Hmm seems you were posting while I was editing. The spark should be visible except maybe hard to see in bright light. Probably hear a little snap as well. Did you find both wires grounded when you measured them to ground or one is not grounded?


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## TheHolyCannoli (Nov 19, 2013)

skutflut said:


> Hmm seems you were posting while I was editing. The spark should be visible except maybe hard to see in bright light. Probably hear a little snap as well. Did you find both wires grounded when you measured them to ground or one is not grounded?


Yes, both wires are individual grounded, even when completely removed from the switch.


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## bad69cat (Nov 30, 2015)

be sure the plug case is touching a good solid ground when you are looking for a spark, I use a battery cable clamp or vise grips to hold it in place while watching for it. Should be nice and blue in a shady spot. Or get your neighbor to hold it in his hand while holding tthe blower steady on an unpainted portion while you pull it - if he starts jumping around you know you have good spark! :>P


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## skutflut (Oct 16, 2015)

TheHolyCannoli said:


> Yes, both wires are individual grounded, even when completely removed from the switch.


You either have the wire to the coil grounded (rubbed through the insulation somewhere you cannot see it) or the coil itself has gone bad. Your next step is to pull the recoil starter housing off and get to the fly wheel and the ignition coil and see whats going on there. If this machine is still under warranty, maybe call the dealer or manufacturer in at this point.

As long as you still have the switch apart, check for continuity between the two terminals of the switch with the key in (open circuit) and with the key out (continuity). That will eliminate the key switch having any problem.


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## TheHolyCannoli (Nov 19, 2013)

bad69cat said:


> be sure the plug case is touching a good solid ground when you are looking for a spark, I use a battery cable clamp or vise grips to hold it in place while watching for it. Should be nice and blue in a shady spot. Or get your neighbor to hold it in his hand while holding tthe blower steady on an unpainted portion while you pull it - if he starts jumping around you know you have good spark! :>P


I've got a neighbor that I'd like to clamp directly to the electric starter :icon-hgtg:

I've been grounding the threads of the plug to a bolt, or the actual ground electrode to a bolt. I'm guessing either way is sufficient?


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## skutflut (Oct 16, 2015)

TheHolyCannoli said:


> I've got a neighbor that I'd like to clamp directly to the electric starter :icon-hgtg:
> 
> I've been grounding the threads of the plug to a bolt, or the actual ground electrode to a bolt. I'm guessing either way is sufficient?



Either should be ok, but with the coil wire grounded, you are not going to get any spark anyway.


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## TheHolyCannoli (Nov 19, 2013)

skutflut said:


> Either should be ok, but with the coil wire grounded, you are not going to get any spark anyway.


Which of the wires that I tested is the coil wire? One of the wires going into the key-switch?

Also, shouldn't I be getting continuity between one of those wires going into the key-switch and the metal contact inside the plug holder?


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## skutflut (Oct 16, 2015)

TheHolyCannoli said:


> Which of the wires that I tested is the coil wire? One of the wires going into the key-switch?
> 
> Also, shouldn't I be getting continuity between one of those wires going into the key-switch and the metal contact inside the plug holder?


Yes. One of the wires from the key switch is the coil "Kill" wire, the other goes to ground normally. 

The idea is when the key is pulled out, the coil kill wire gets connected, through the key switch to the ground wire, and kills the spark, and stops the engine. Seems your coil wire has a ground before the Key switch. 

I don't know how easy it is to follow the wires on your engine, but I assume one of the two wires is black, and the other may be another colour. If you can trace them, you should find one going to a ground point somewhere on the block , and the other sneaking around and heading under the recoil starter to the ignition module bolted to the engine near the fly wheel. That would be the coil wire.

You should not see continuity from the plug holder contact and ground. That's on the high voltage side. If that does go to ground, then the coil is definitely fried.


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## TheHolyCannoli (Nov 19, 2013)

skutflut said:


> You should not see continuity from the plug holder contact and ground. That's on the high voltage side. If that does go to ground, then the coil is definitely fried.


I'll have to check that again. I also emailed Ariens because I'm not entirely comfortable/knowledgeable in the electrical department...would be great if this whole thing was covered under warranty.


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## skutflut (Oct 16, 2015)

TheHolyCannoli said:


> I'll have to check that again. I also emailed Ariens because I'm not entirely comfortable/knowledgeable in the electrical department...would be great if this whole thing was covered under warranty.


I believe you got a 3 year warranty with that machine? How long you you had it? Dealer or big box store?


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## TheHolyCannoli (Nov 19, 2013)

skutflut said:


> I believe you got a 3 year warranty with that machine? How long you you had it? Dealer or big box store?


Purchased end of 2013 with the 3yr warranty. Purchased online through HomeDepot, although it was delivered and serviced (belt pulley needed adjustment) by a local authorized dealer.

The problem is getting it to the dealer...not exactly a feasible task to transport a 230lb blower when you don't own a truck.


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## skutflut (Oct 16, 2015)

TheHolyCannoli said:


> Purchased end of 2013 with the 3yr warranty. Purchased online through HomeDepot, although it was delivered and serviced (belt pulley needed adjustment) by a local authorized dealer.
> 
> The problem is getting it to the dealer...not exactly a feasible task to transport a 230lb blower when you don't own a truck.


See if the dealer does house calls. Maybe discuss that with Ariens and put the issue in their hands.


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## foggysail (Feb 21, 2015)

I will share my recent experience with a 6.5hp Honda engine that powers my compressor. I could not get the engine to run so after ruling fuel out, I next went to the ignition. No spark.

The Honda engine's ignition is a magneto style with no points. There is most likely an electronic switch potted into the guts of the what looks to be a hunk of plastic with two pole pieces that ride on the rotating magnets (flywheel). There are two wires leading from the plastic, one is the spark plug wire, the other prevents spark when ground by either an on/off switch or an oil pressure switch.

I removed the shut down switch wire and still no spark. So next I went to my trusted source for parts, a new ignition from EBAY. I order a new ignition for $14, free delivery AND SHOULD HAVE PAID MORE FOR PRIORITY MAIL!!!! The order got lost at the supplier's post office.

So I ordered another from a different source, this time paid the extra $5 for priority mailing. Sure enough, two days later the second order arrived.......was still waiting for the first order. Mounted the new ignition, ran my compressor for about 1/2 hour AND AGAIN, THE HONDA QUIT! Yeah, your ahead of me.........another ignition failure.

OH, MY COMPUTER POSTED THE ABOVE WHILE I WAS STILL TYPING!!! #[email protected]%$^

Contacted the seller of the first order, he is sending out a new ignition. Contacted the seller of the second ignition........he also is sending out a new ignition. And today, the original first order arrived and I don't have time to install it.

OK......so what???? My point, IGNITIONS FAIL!!!!!!!!!!!! AND THEY ARE CHEAP!!!!!!!!!! If you have your plug out of the engine where you can view the plug's electrodes, disconnect any shut down wire leading to the igniton, GROUND THE PLUG BODY, crank the engine, manually or via starter. If you have no spark, you have an ignition failure! Maybe Ariens can help with a replacement. If not GO TO EBAY!!!! No, I have no stock in EBAY but it certainly is a convenient source of just about anything you need in life.

OH and I am still now waiting for the second ignitions from both suppliers and I expect them here before Xmas.

Foggy


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## E350 (Apr 21, 2015)

FYI, I like this for testing for spark:



Amazon.com: Cal-Van Tools 64 High Energy Ignition Tester: Automotive


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## foggysail (Feb 21, 2015)

E350 said:


> FYI, I like this for testing for spark:
> 
> Amazon.com: Cal-Van Tools 64 High Energy Ignition Tester: Automotive



I find the problem with special tools is just being able to find the thing when I need it. Personally, I have tested ignitions for years just using a spark plug. But whatever works for you is what to use.


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## Kiss4aFrog (Nov 3, 2013)

Having a dedicated spark tester is handy. Much handier than trying to hold it against the engine or something metal and better that laying a spark plug on the engine and hoping you have a decent ground. It also lets you get further away from it just in case some gas vapor happens to get ignited when you're cranking it over.
Just because you can't find a screwdriver or pliers now and then shouldn't stop you from buying one in the first place.


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## E350 (Apr 21, 2015)

*foggysail*: For people like me, and maybe even *TheHolyCannoli*, this spark tester device takes the guesswork out when testing for spark on pull start engines. Because I have found it hard to hold the spark plug with one hand close to a good ground for a good spark jump while at the same time, pulling the pull starter with the other hand to generate the current for the spark.

Edit: *TheHolyCannoli*: It is "rocket science" if you haven't worked on engines before. FYI, for gasoline engines the three things necessary are: 1. Spark, 2. Fuel, and 3. Air. Testing for spark has already been covered. Testing for fuel is easy, like *nt40lanman* says pull out your sparkplug, and if it is wet and smells like gasoline you have fuel being supplied to the cylinder by the carburetor. Or you can leave the sparkplug in and spray a little "starting fluid" (ether) into the air intake. If the engine starts but dies as soon as the ether is burned up, then your carburetor is not supplying the fuel needed to keep it running. (Avoid use of ether if at all possible and never tell the dealer that you have used it.) To test for air, check your air filter if you have one, or your flame arrester if you have one, or your carburetor cover to make sure that you have airflow into the cylinder. If you use ether per above and the engine starts but dies you know you have air flow to the cylinder because suction created by the piston moving downward in the cylinder is what pulled the ether and air mixture into the cylinder to start the engine. Small engines are relatively simple machines which can be fun to learn how to anaylize. It just takes some basic knowledge, a little coffee, and some observation and all will become apparent to you.

In my humble opinion, you have a key or other grounding out problem which is preventing spark from getting to your engine. I know how difficult it can be to test for spark on a small pull start engine, that is why I suggested the spark tester. It is relatively foolproof, and I (and maybe even you) can be helped by things that are "foolproof."


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## nt40lanman (Dec 31, 2012)

Most of this isn't brain surgery Cannoli. Inside the engine is a unit that makes spark. Outside the engine are a few wires that can be grounded to shut it off. That's it.

Swap plugs again, and drip a little gas down in just to be sure and give it a go. You can get a spark tester at any parts store, it might help you down the road with something else.

The cover with the controls looks like it comes off fairly easily. Under there would be the rest of the wires to disconnect the "safety key" etc. I'm sure someone here has disassembled one and can help. 

Beyond that, I'd contact Ariens and the dealer that set it up for you.


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## foggysail (Feb 21, 2015)

Kiss4aFrog said:


> Having a dedicated spark tester is handy. Much handier than trying to hold it against the engine or something metal and better that laying a spark plug on the engine and hoping you have a decent ground. It also lets you get further away from it just in case some gas vapor happens to get ignited when you're cranking it over.
> Just because you can't find a screwdriver or pliers now and then shouldn't stop you from buying one in the first place.



I have soo many unused gadgets now, that I have forgoten what many of them were purchased for. From my above post:

" But whatever works for you is what to use. "


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## TheHolyCannoli (Nov 19, 2013)

Just to update on this.....

Ignition coil went bad. Ariens replaced it under warranty.

I still find this whole sequence of events to be odd with the unit being only 2yrs only and used for maybe 6 hours total. Especially considering I started the blower, never moved it, and then couldn't start it 2 weeks later after pulling the spark plug. I have a feeling something came loose when removing the spark plug, so be gentle when tugging on that coil. I certainly was, but still, it somehow became damaged. There really should be a bit more slack on that wire to make removing the spark plug a bit easier. Not sure if it's only my machine, but I can see how the wire could be strained with changing out plugs.


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## bad69cat (Nov 30, 2015)

Hard saying - it may have been very close to failing from day one do to a bad move in the manufacturing end of things and you just finished it off incidentally. I have had numerous "new" coil failures on my mower repairs over the last few years. Welcome to china made parts son..... :>/ CHEESES ME OFF too!


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