# Yard Machines / MTD oil question



## carguy20

Good Afternoon Everybody!

I know I may be opening a can of worms, but here goes.

I have a 2002 Yard Machines snowblower (31AS644E129) that my dad got new when I was younger. He has always taught me the value of maintaining our power equipment and the machine has never given us a problem (except the one time that safety switch / key thing wouldn't allow the machine to start). We usually change the oil every year or every couple years. There are some years here in NJ where we get no snow, or so little we do not take out the blower. We started using Royal Purple SAE30 in it about 10+ years ago. I had picked up a case of it on sale somewhere, and have finally ran out. I was going to get more, but I started thinking about switching to 10w30 oil for it. Most of my other power equipment (generator, trash pump, etc) uses 10w30 and I usually have some of it around. When I looked in the owners manual for the Tecumseh engine , this is the chart I found.









Now I usually only use the blower when it is in the 20's to low 40's, and will start in up in the fall when it is in the 50's but only run it for a few minutes. I could use the 5w30 in it, but the manual does say that using multigrade oil above 32 degrees will increase oil consumption, and to not use 10w40. It also says to stick with API Service rated oil of SL/SJ. 

Does anyone have any thoughts?


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## ST1100A

The list you show is for general oil use in different engines.
In warm weather SAE30 is good for lawn mowers and other uses in summertime.
Your snowblower would use either 10W30 or 5W30 weight oil.
That is an older manual you have because they don't make SAE30W anymore. The 'W' stands for 'Winter Grade'. Tecumseh went out of business back in the '90's.
Any multi grade oil will be consumed faster than a straight grade oil will because is 'Vaporizes' easier and gets sucked through the engines breather, burned and out the exhaust, plus it leaks easier than straight 30 weight due to it being a thinner oil. You don't want to use straight 30 weight oil in cold weather below 32 degrees, it would be too heavy and not lubricate properly, especially in a snowblower in the wintertime.


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## AandPDan

I have an Ariens with the Tecumseh, shows the same recommendations. The owners manual is 20 years out of date in regards to oil.
5w-30 synthetic is now accepted by most manufacturers over a wide range of temperatures. I attached a B&S guide.
I'm using Mobil 1 5w-30 and have been for 10+ years, no issues. Just keep it full!


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## ChrisJ

ST1100A said:


> The list you show is for general oil use in different engines.
> In warm weather SAE30 is good for lawn mowers and other uses in summertime.
> Your snowblower would use either 10W30 or 5W30 weight oil.
> That is an older manual you have because they don't make SAE30W anymore. The 'W' stands for 'Winter Grade'. Tecumseh went out of business back in the '90's.
> Any multi grade oil will be consumed faster than a straight grade oil will because is 'Vaporizes' easier and gets sucked through the engines breather, burned and out the exhaust, plus it leaks easier than straight 30 weight due to it being a thinner oil. You don't want to use straight 30 weight oil in cold weather below 32 degrees, it would be too heavy and not lubricate properly, especially in a snowblower in the wintertime.



Is there any reason 0w30 would have an issue in any engine that calls for 10w30?


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## Marty013

i use 0w30 i my machines.. just for the easier cold start it provides.. ive yet to experience an engine failure due to lack of oil.. or oil related... overspeed related... well now.. thats another can of worms isnt it  lol


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## WrenchIt

For the record, they still make single weight 30 wt oil. I don't know the difference between SAE30 and 30w, but I'd think they are interchangeable today. You can buy it at hardware stores or auto parts stores. While it is cheaper at the auto stores, not all of them carry it, but I saw at least two brands at a local Advance Auto Store. 

My big local Ace hardware store sells it for $7 a quart (Ace brand) in a special mower/outoor equipment display area, and Advance has several brands on their website for $4 to $8 per quart. I bought the cheaper quart off the shelf at my local store.


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## ST1100A

Single weight oil is SAE30.
They no longer make SAE30'W' or 30 weight 'Winter Grade'.
Both your SAE30 and 'Single' or 'Straight' 30 are the same thing, just called a different name.
A lot of people think the 'W' stands for 'Weight' which is does not, it stands for 'Winter Grade', which means the oil is specially formulated for winter conditions.
You don't find the single weight 30 or SAE30 as much now days as you did in the past because not as many things use it anymore so it isn't as popular, but small engines use it a lot especially in warm weather. But it is still available, just not as popular.
The lighter weight oils used in modern cars is of a light weight to cut down on the power it robs from pumping it through the engine. The thinner or lighter weight oils pump a lot easier so they use less power to pump it, so as to cut down on any parasitic power loss to help give better fuel mileage.


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## ST1100A

ChrisJ said:


> Is there any reason 0w30 would have an issue in any engine that calls for 10w30?


0W30 is a little bit too 'Light Weight' of an oil for a small engine, it is too 'Thin' and wont provide enough of a 'Barrier' between the metal parts because the small engines don't have a high enough pressure pump to provide the extra 'Barrier' of pressure needed with a very light oil, especially if it is just a 'Splash' type lubricated engine.
Most manufacturers do not recommend a multi viscosity or weight oil because of excessive oil consumption, although it is specified for winter time cold temperature use. They feel it won't be used for a lengthy period of time in the cold weather so there is less of a chance of the engine loosing too much oil causing damage.
The very light weight oils are more prone to 'Vaporizing' caused by oil hitting the spinning crankshaft which causes it to actually become a 'Mist' which is then sucked out the engines breather and it can also 'Foam' easier in which it gets tiny air bubbles in it and that can cause not enough oil to create a thick enough barrier between metal parts, leading to wear and engine failure because you wont have a good solid oil film, you will have air space between the oil when it is squeezed through a plain bearing on the crankshaft and connecting rod bearings.


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## 140278

tractor supply has 5 qt bottles of 30 non detergent marked for air compressors and 30Hd which is detergent


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## ChrisJ

ST1100A said:


> 0W30 is a little bit too 'Light Weight' of an oil for a small engine, it is too 'Thin' and wont provide enough of a 'Barrier' between the metal parts because the small engines don't have a high enough pressure pump to provide the extra 'Barrier' of pressure needed with a very light oil, especially if it is just a 'Splash' type lubricated engine.
> Most manufacturers do not recommend a multi viscosity or weight oil because of excessive oil consumption, although it is specified for winter time cold temperature use. They feel it won't be used for a lengthy period of time in the cold weather so there is less of a chance of the engine loosing too much oil causing damage.
> The very light weight oils are more prone to 'Vaporizing' caused by oil hitting the spinning crankshaft which causes it to actually become a 'Mist' which is then sucked out the engines breather and it can also 'Foam' easier in which it gets tiny air bubbles in it and that can cause not enough oil to create a thick enough barrier between metal parts, leading to wear and engine failure because you wont have a good solid oil film, you will have air space between the oil when it is squeezed through a plain bearing on the crankshaft and connecting rod bearings.



But I thought 0w30 and 10w30 should be nearly identical viscosity at operating temperature they only become different as they cool?


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## ST1100A

No it is different. The 0w is made of a much lighter 'Base Stock' with V.I. or Viscosity Index improvers added to it to give it the '30' number. The original Base Stocks are much too light weight.
Small engines run hotter than automobile engines and are subjected to much higher 'Hot Spots' in them unlike automobile engines that are liquid cooled and run at much more consistent temperatures, they don't vary as widely as a small engine will.
Also many of your 'Small Engine' specific oils have added 'Zinc' in them, something the 'E.P.A.' doesn't like in regular motor oils and other specific additives that car oils don't have.
You want to use an oil that is specifically made for small engines to get the most protection.


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## ChrisJ

ST1100A said:


> No it is different. The 0w is made of a much lighter 'Base Stock' with V.I. or Viscosity Index improvers added to it to give it the '30' number. The original Base Stocks are much too light weight.
> Small engines run hotter than automobile engines and are subjected to much higher 'Hot Spots' in them unlike automobile engines that are liquid cooled and run at much more consistent temperatures, they don't vary as widely as a small engine will.
> Also many of your 'Small Engine' specific oils have added 'Zinc' in them, something the 'E.P.A.' doesn't like in regular motor oils and other specific additives that car oils don't have.
> You want to use an oil that is specifically made for small engines to get the most protection.



Interesting point with operating temp for air cooled engines
I do recall the second number being at a specific temperature.

But I suspect air cooled engines on snow blowers aren't operating very hot confused to lawn mowers etc .


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## JLawrence08648

ST1100A I'm learning about oils, thank you, especially the lighter base stock. I did a post recently adding a lead additive to gasoline for older engines to provide a cushion for the valves. 

Using a slightly thicker oil than 0w, such as a 10w, to act as a cushion for the bearings makes sense.

Valvoline makes a marine or racing oil that has zinc in it. I thought using this oil as a break in oil might be a good idea.


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## ST1100A

ChrisJ said:


> Interesting point with operating temp for air cooled engines
> I do recall the second number being at a specific temperature.
> 
> But I suspect air cooled engines on snow blowers aren't operating very hot confused to lawn mowers etc .


Hi Chris, yes their internal oil and operating temperatures get just as hot as a lawnmower engine does.
The colder air helps with radiating and transferring the heat from the engines cooling fins on the engine block. It would help with the oil if it had an oil cooler on it but most snowblowers don't have oil coolers on them.
A lot of people think that because a snowblower is operated in cold temperatures, the engine will run cooler, but that is not true, when they reach normal operating temperatures, they run just as hot as a lawnmower engine will, and much hotter than a car engine will.
You also figure the engines bearing surfaces are much smaller than on a cars engine, so there is much more pressure encountered by them in a smaller space than on a car engine.
A car engine has a lot more oil in it to help shed and transfer heat compared to a small engine which has much less, so the extra oil has more of a chance to settle in the oil pan and let the tiny air bubbles escape from the oil, it has more time to do that compared to a small engine before the oil is recirculated to the crank bearings again, where a small engine has much less oil in it, that is why small engine oil has more 'Anti-Foaming' additives in it than car oil.


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## WrenchIt

JLawrence08648 said:


> ST1100A I'm learning about oils, thank you, especially the lighter base stock. I did a post recently adding a lead additive to gasoline for older engines to provide a cushion for the valves. Using a slightly thicker oil than 0w to act as a cushion makes sense.
> 
> Valvoline makes a marine or racing oil that has zinc in it. I thought using this oil as a break in oil might be a good idea.


The 'cushioning' effect of lead in gasoline was due to the lead being deposited on the valve seat. It would eventually burn off if a non lead gas was used after leaded gas. Oil does not cushion your valves, this area is far too hot for the oil to not vaporize and be burned. And, there is little oil in this area to begin with (the exhaust ports).


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## JLawrence08648

ST1100A in his post says a thicker oil than a 0w, say a 10w, serves as a cushion for the bearings, not the valves. I'll edit my post to clarify it better.


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## ST1100A

The 'Lead' in the gasoline was used as a 'Cushion' for valves back in the day when they made good gasoline. The 'Lead' also left deposits on the spark plugs and helped add to the 'Build-up' in the combustion chamber, it also ruined catalytic converters by coating them with the lead deposits, but back then we used to remove them because they created too much 'Back-Pressure' and power loss.
Once they took the Lead out of the gasoline the manufacturers started building the engines with 'Hardened' valves, usually with a 'Stellite' coating on them so they wouldn't wear down as fast.
The problem with them being coated was if and when they had to be 'Ground' down a bit, they would wear out the grinding stones faster or you couldn't take/grind much off of them because you would remove all of the 'Stellite' coating, then the valve was worthless. The 'Hardened' valves usually lasted a lot longer than the old type valves on a normal street car engine, so by the time they wore out and had to be re-ground, you usually just replaced them.
The 'Hardened' valves were common in 'High Performance' engines that used heavy valve springs with 'Racing' cams and 'Roller' lifters before they had 'Unleaded' gasoline that the government made everyone switch over to.


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## carguy20

Wow, I did not expect to draw this much commentary. Thank you to ST1100A and everyone else. I kind of figured the manual was a little out of date as far as specs. I always thought that the SAE 30 was a little bit thick for winter use, but using the Royal Purple synthetic, it never seemed to be too difficult to turn over. 

I am probably going to switch to a 10w30 oil. I was looking at Amsoil, they make a 10w30 designed for small engines. I haven't really used them, but my dad used to use amsoil a lot back in the late 70's and early 80's with good results. I figure if I order a few quarts I should be good for several years. The benefit would be that I could also use that oil in my generator without issue as well. I may even try their 2 stroke oil for my CCR3650.


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## ST1100A

The Amsoil 10w30 Small Engine engine Oil is an excellent oil that can be used both summer and winter. It will flow at minus 46 degrees F and also takes engine heat very well, plus it has a lot of Zinc in it.


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## JLawrence08648

ST1100A said:


> The Amsoil 10w30 Small Engine engine Oil is an excellent oil that can be used both summer and winter. It will flow at minus 46 degrees F and also takes engine heat very well, plus it has a lot of Zinc in it.


ST1100A - was it you who mentioned a Valvoline racing oil for a break in oil because it had a lot of zinc in it? If so, or not, would the Amsoil be better for an established engine because it has zinc and it flows well instead of a synthetic? Which would you use as a break in oil?


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## ST1100A

JLawrence08648 said:


> ST1100A - was it you who mentioned a Valvoline racing oil for a break in oil because it had a lot of zinc in it? If so, or not, would the Amsoil be better for an established engine because it has zinc and it flows well instead of a synthetic? Which would you use as a break in oil?


Amsoil is a synthetic oil. It is the 'Pioneer' of synthetic oils.
Amsoil does make special 'Break-in' oil just for new or rebuilt engines.
A lot of 'Break-in' oil doesn't have the special 'Friction Modifiers' in it to let the parts wear themselves in against each other to 'Mate' themselves to each other. That is why you don't leave 'Break-in' oils in for an extended period of time. Once everything 'Burnishes' themselves, or 'Polishes' against the other part, then the oil is changed and you can them use the oils with all of the special 'Friction Modifiers' and detergents in them.
You can 'Break in' an engine with regular or synthetic oils without using the special 'Break-in' oils, it might just take a little bit longer for everything to 'Seat' with one another.
The Zinc helps with camshaft lifter and lobe break in well, molybdenum helps with smooth bearing break-in. 
I am not the one who mentioned Valvoline racing oil.
The Amsoil is excellent for established engines, small engines because it does have a lot of Zinc in it, withstands temperature extremes extremely well and is very long lasting before it begins to break down. It is an excellent 'High Mileage' oil for high mileage between oil changes and equipment that doesn't get the chance to change it frequently. It holds up extremely well to over 200 engine hours severe duty between changes where most other oils have to be changed anywhere from 25 to 50 engine hours, maybe 100 hours at the most.


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## SnowGuy69

Read a few chapters: Motor Oil 101 - Chapter One - Operating Temperatures and Viscosity - Bob is the Oil Guy 

At least one and two as they deal with your question.


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