# Noob - looking for advice on single vs dual and brands...



## zephed666 (Nov 20, 2017)

Hello:

I've been reading through this forum for sometime now trying to get some information on what type and brand of snowblower I should purchase. 
I have approx. 1000 sq/ft of driveway, about 200 sq/ft of walk and 400 sq/ft of patio(not that I need to clear that) and live on Long Island. 
For the past 10 years we have averaged about 45 inches a year (low 5" and high 68"). 

I was looking at the Toro single stage - Snowmaster and Power Clears at HD but the worker there suggested the Arieins Deluxe or the Sno-Tek which are both two stage. He also suggested something called a Power Master since it was a two-stage for $529. I would like to be able to clear right to the pavement, is that possible with a two stage?
Would a two stage make sense for my scenario? Seems like a little overkill. I know it would be nice for the big storms but I would like an all in one type of blower at this time. 

Comparing the Toro and Ariens seems to be like comparing Chevy and Fords - mostly a preference. The main difference I see in the two stage from these brands is that Toro (PowerMax) does not have the shear pins since it has a heavy duty gearbox as opposed to the Ariens which has shear pins. This makes me lean toward the Toro two stage if that is the way I decide to go.
I would like to hear some suggestions on single vs dual in my scenario.

thanks for any advice!


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## nwcove (Mar 2, 2015)

welcome to the forum !! heres possibly the best of both worlds.
https://www.toro.com/en-ca/homeowner/snow-blowers/snowmaster-724-zxr-36001


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## Kiss4aFrog (Nov 3, 2013)

:welcome: to SBF zephed666

It depends on your muscles and your age. As I get older it soooooo nice to have a two stage self propelled especially when I'm not right out there to attack the pile at the end of the drive. Doing that stuff with partially frozen with a single is a heart attack style workout. The two stage walks through it no matter if it's right after the plow comes by or next morning.

The single was as quick as I could walk in most cases and cleared right down to the pavement mostly.

That's the problem. In town I owned both and used the appropriate one. Now I'm out in the country with a 300' gravel driveway and only have two stage blowers.


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## zephed666 (Nov 20, 2017)

nwcove said:


> welcome to the forum !! heres possibly the best of both worlds.
> https://www.toro.com/en-ca/homeowner/snow-blowers/snowmaster-724-zxr-36001


Thanks! That is the one I was going to HD to look at...


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## zephed666 (Nov 20, 2017)

Kiss4aFrog said:


> :welcome: to SBF zephed666
> 
> It depends on your muscles and your age. As I get older it soooooo nice to have a two stage self propelled especially when I'm not right out there to attack the pile at the end of the drive. Doing that stuff with partially frozen with a single is a heart attack style workout. The two stage walks through it no matter if it's right after the plow comes by or next morning.
> 
> ...



Thanks! Turning 50 and just widened the driveway so I figured it was time to put the shovel down...
Do the two stage blowers clear right down to the pavement?


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## 10953 (Sep 4, 2017)

welcome to the site

after using a toro powershift for 30 years in sussex county nj "yes by the ski area on the same mountain" , and now owning a 928 ohxe powermax, i can say toro is still a beast, not one thing wrong with ariens other than having to have a few sets of spare shear pins around every storm and them using a lower grade engine from LCT the old tecumseh .
toro is using what's claimed to be a better grade engine from loncin it's still from china but side by side.it looks and sounds way beefier, i never had a single problem with the auger gear box on my old ones, the new one still uses one like the old, NO shear pins to me are a plus.
factory bolts are grade 5 they feel the machine is that good, the wheels even have grade 8 bolts holding them to the axle, that tells a lot. my past luck made me go with another,when i sold the old one i had 6 people wanting the old one, 

toro has a auger bolt kit as a accessory for $7.14 that has 2 auger bolts , factory spacers and 2 impeller bolts in it. not they will be needed, it's good to have back up. along with 2 belts,those are not warranty items.


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## zephed666 (Nov 20, 2017)

87 powershift said:


> welcome to the site
> 
> after using a toro powershift for 30 years in sussex county nj "yes by the ski area on the same mountain" , and now owning a 928 ohxe powermax, i can say toro is still a beast, not one thing wrong with ariens other than having to have a few sets of spare shear pins around every storm and them using a lower grade engine from LCT the old tecumseh .
> toro is using what's claimed to be a better grade engine from loncin it's still from china but side by side.it looks and sounds way beefier, i never had a single problem with the auger gear box on my old ones, the new one still uses one like the old, NO shear pins to me are a plus.
> ...


Thanks! I understand your need for the two stage. 
I am on the fence with the two at this point...


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## 10953 (Sep 4, 2017)

zephed666 said:


> Thanks! I understand your need for the two stage.
> I am on the fence with the two at this point...


where we live,in the north east we never know the weather, having a strong 2 stage when needed is a big plus IMM. if it's a light snow they still work wonders, 
i'm not a fan of the smaller paddle ones for the nyc area, yes they work but have limits where a bigger 2 stage doesn't


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## zephed666 (Nov 20, 2017)

87 powershift said:


> where we live,in the north east we never know the weather, having a strong 2 stage when needed is a big plus IMM. if it's a light snow they still work wonders,
> i'm not a fan of the smaller paddle ones for the nyc area, yes they work but have limits where a bigger 2 stage doesn't


So you would go with the tow-stage in my case?


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## tpenfield (Feb 24, 2015)

There are some decent single stage machines . . . the Toro line comes to mind. IMO the advantage of a single stage machine is lighter weight.

A 2-stage machine excels at the end of the driveway, where your have the 'auger' to break-up hard packed snow, chunks of ice, etc. and guide it into the next stage . . . and there is the 'impeller' to throw the snow out from the machine. So, you have 2 different types of mechanisms, each doing what it does best and running at the best speed for the job . . . auger going slower and the impeller going faster.

A single stage machine has to try to do all of the things that a 2-stage machine does, but with a single mechanism. Do-able, but not as good in all situations.


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## zephed666 (Nov 20, 2017)

tpenfield said:


> There are some decent single stage machines . . . the Toro line comes to mind. IMO the advantage of a single stage machine is lighter weight.
> 
> A 2-stage machine excels at the end of the driveway, where your have the 'auger' to break-up hard packed snow, chunks of ice, etc. and guide it into the next stage . . . and there is the 'impeller' to throw the snow out from the machine. So, you have 2 different types of mechanisms, each doing what it does best and running at the best speed for the job . . . auger going slower and the impeller going faster.
> 
> A single stage machine has to try to do all of the things that a 2-stage machine does, but with a single mechanism. Do-able, but not as good in all situations.


But are two stage machines good in small accumulation? 3" or less? Do they clear to the pavement?


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## rfw1953 (Oct 11, 2017)

Welcome to the forum from Crested Butte, CO...I agree with the previous comments about getting a 2-stage SB, especially considering the job you want it to do and for having for those big snow and icy days. 

Below is a thread link that will take you to multiple spreadsheets after you scroll through the thread. The spreadsheets will help you compare different brands and models against price vs. unit specs. There is also a page that explains the definitions for the spreadsheet individual columns. In the end, only you can determine your budget and then select the best model that fits your needs and budget. Any of the brands within the spreadsheet are popular with many of the members on this forum. Hope you find this helpful. 


http://www.snowblowerforum.com/forum/general-snowblower-discussion/119473-choosing-snowblower-2.html


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## zephed666 (Nov 20, 2017)

rfw1953 said:


> Welcome to the forum from Crested Butte, CO...I agree with the previous comments about getting a 2-stage SB, especially considering the job you want it to do and for having for those big snow and icy days.
> 
> Below is a thread link that will take you to multiple spreadsheets after you scroll through the thread. The spreadsheets will help you compare different brands and models against price vs. unit specs. There is also a page that explains the definitions for the spreadsheet individual columns. In the end, only you can determine your budget and then select the best model that fits your needs and budget. Any of the brands within the spreadsheet are popular with many of the members on this forum. Hope you find this helpful.
> 
> ...


thanks! I was looking at that the other day. Was hoping for some more insight from people that own the toro or Arien models. I made my own list and narrowed it down to the Toro Snowmaster 724. that is when I got sidetracked with the two stage. Now i was just not sure which route to go. If I were to go two stage I was looking at the Ariens compact, Sno-tek and Toro PowerMax.


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## drmerdp (Feb 9, 2014)

I’m a firm believer in having both a single stage and a two-stage. The right tool for the job. That being said. If you are going to own just one snow blower it should probably be a two-stage. Long Island gets some big bumping from time to time, and it’s usually wet.

With entry level 2-stage machines I always lean toward toro. You’d be hard pressed trying to clog one of these machines with wet snow, and the quick chute is the best manual chute control on the market.


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## sscotsman (Dec 8, 2010)

zephed666 said:


> But are two stage machines good in small accumulation? 3" or less? Do they clear to the pavement?


Its not the accumlation that is the main factor, its the consistancy of the snow.
2-stage is much better with COLD dry snow..and larger amounts of cold snow. (6" and up)
the colder the temp, the better..3 inches is ok, if its 25F or colder and dry fluffy snow.

If most of your 1" to 3" snowfalls are wet and slushy, the single-stage is much better..
2-stage snowblowers dont do as well in wet, slushy snow.

For 98% of your snowfalls, the single-stage is probably the better machine for your climate..
The only issue is that rare 2-foot to 3-foot blizzard..then you want the 2-stage.
How often do you get a foot or more?

So, two options:

1. Single stage, probably the superior machine 98% of the time, but *might* not be sufficient in big snows.

2. 2-stage, that will handle the big storms, but isnt as good in 3" or less of slush..

And no, 2-stage dont clean to the pavement. you need to leave a thin layer behind.
but in your (warmer) winter climate, thats probably not an issue, because it will just melt.

Personally, I would go with the single-stage for Lawn-guy-lind..I think overall its the better choice..but there are pros and cons to either choice..

What do most people around you have?

Scot


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## zephed666 (Nov 20, 2017)

drmerdp said:


> I’m a firm having both a single stage and a two-stage. The right tool for the job. That being said. If you are going to own just one snow blower it should probably be a two-stage. Long Island gets some big bumping from time to time, and it’s usually wet.
> 
> With entry level 2-stage machines I always lean toward toro. You’d be hard pressed trying to clog once of these machines with wet snow, and the quick chute is the best manual chute control on the market.


Definitely leaning towards the Toro. The strange thing is the Power Max 724 (two-stage) and the Snowmaster 724 (single stage) are the same price. Why would that be considering the same size engine - 212CC?


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## tpenfield (Feb 24, 2015)

zephed666 said:


> But are two stage machines good in small accumulation? 3" or less? Do they clear to the pavement?


My 2-stage blowers clear pretty much to the pavement . . . maybe leaving a dusting (1/16") on the driveway. It all depends on how low you have the skids adjusted. I keep mine pretty low, but you tend to put a little bit of wear on the auger and scraper blade part of the housing if you set them too low. 

I am not familiar how that compares to a single stage . . . keep in mind that anything that comes in contact with the driveway surface is going to show wear over time.


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## 10953 (Sep 4, 2017)

zephed666 said:


> So you would go with the tow-stage in my case?


yes. and i see the post below your question seems to feel as i do 

the end of driveway problem we all suffer from being the biggest reason , a paddle single stage won't do if it is packed down wet or deep
you are looking at 2 great brands, just after 30 years with out more then a now and then broken belt and a few normal wear items have become a toro lover 
as a long time auto master tech i am persoanlly not fond of the LCT engine used by the other wise great ariens .


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## zephed666 (Nov 20, 2017)

sscotsman said:


> Its not the accumlation that is the main factor, its the consistancy of the snow.
> 2-stage is much better with COLD dry snow..and larger amounts of cold snow. (6" and up)
> the colder the temp, the better..3 inches is ok, if its 25F or colder and dry fluffy snow.
> 
> ...


Thanks! there seems to be an assortment around me. More single stage machines but there are a few two stage. My neighbor has a single stage and in big snow it seems to take him longer using that than me using the shovel. He does have a Toro Powerrclear though. I think I would get a Toro Snowmaster single stage if I go that way. But I still don;t understand why it is the same price as the Toro two-stage Power Max.


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## ultimatejimmy (Jan 24, 2016)

I've had the Snowmaster 724 for two years (this will be its 3rd season) and it hasn't failed me. For anything under a foot it is faster than all my neighbors 2-stage machines. It is easier to handle and has simpler controls and it just goes fast. Hard/icy end of driveway snow requires a slower pace, but otherwise it is an excellent machine.


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## zephed666 (Nov 20, 2017)

ultimatejimmy said:


> I've had the Snowmaster 724 for two years (this will be its 3rd season) and it hasn't failed me. For anything under a foot it is faster than all my neighbors 2-stage machines. It is easier to handle and has simpler controls and it just goes fast. Hard/icy end of driveway snow requires a slower pace, but otherwise it is an excellent machine.


Thanks! Still on the fence...
Went to the dealer the other day and he recommended the Toro PowerMax 824 OE for the area we live in. I was actually leaning toward the Snowmaster 824 QXE since it has power steering and the same size engine as the two stage PowerMax but it is the single stage model. Going back this weekend to buy one or the other. Guess it will be whatever I feel like at the time at this point... 
they are the same price...

I think I like the better maneuverability with the lighter SnowMaster. I am going to try both out side by side to be sure....


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## vinnycom (Nov 6, 2017)

tough choices. i bought a used craftsman 10/28 circa late 80's, its a very heavy brute of a machine.
i hate eod and that why i bought it. my thinking was for the type of snow we get it just be easier to shovel everything down to the eod on my 4 car drive and then use the beast to throw it the rest of the way


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## barney (Nov 21, 2017)

I've been impressed looking at a couple of vids of those Snowmasters in action.


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## ultimatejimmy (Jan 24, 2016)

vinnycom said:


> tough choices. i bought a used craftsman 10/28 circa late 80's, its a very heavy brute of a machine.
> i hate eod and that why i bought it. my thinking was for the type of snow we get it just be easier to shovel everything down to the eod on my 4 car drive and then use the beast to throw it the rest of the way


I was actually thinking the opposite about my Snowmaster on Wednesday. Even with 2-3 inches of snow it is still way faster and easier to blow it than to shovel.


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## vinnycom (Nov 6, 2017)

ultimatejimmy said:


> I was actually thinking the opposite about my Snowmaster on Wednesday. Even with 2-3 inches of snow it is still way faster and easier to blow it than to shovel.


my labor and curse is at the eod. 
how does the Snowmaster handle the heavy frozen compacted snow and slush w/chunks of ice embedded in it thats about 3 ft high by 5 ft wide by ~30ft long left behind by snowplow. 
plus i got to make sure the storm drains are cleared which is right beside my driveway on the road


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## stromr (Jul 20, 2016)

zephed666 said:


> Thanks! Still on the fence...
> Went to the dealer the other day and he recommended the Toro PowerMax 824 OE for the area we live in. I was actually leaning toward the Snowmaster 824 QXE since it has power steering and the same size engine as the two stage PowerMax but it is the single stage model. Going back this weekend to buy one or the other. Guess it will be whatever I feel like at the time at this point...
> they are the same price...
> 
> I think I like the better maneuverability with the lighter SnowMaster. I am going to try both out side by side to be sure....


I believe in having both a single stage and a two stage. The single stage for my deck and driveway when we get 6-8" and the two stage when we get more snow and for clearing an area in the backyard for my dog. My thought on your situation is the Toro Snowmaster 824 is a compromise that should work for your snow. The bigger engine because more power moves the heavier snow better. It would eat thru the bigger snows and the EOD but may take longer if it's crusty. You may have to take half a bucket's width at a time. Just remember it won't work well on grass or gravel but can be used for short distances. Sometimes I'll hold my single stage an 1" or so off the ground and just push it. You would still have drive with the personal pace system.

PS: Buying from a dealer is always better for many reasons. Most importunately is if whatever you buy doesn't work you can trade it in easily.


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## zephed666 (Nov 20, 2017)

UPDATE: So I tried out both at the dealer and still wasn't so sure. Dealer said he had the snowmaster and did not like it at all for his needs. So I ended up with the Powermax 824 based. Had it delivered last week and 5 days later we had the bombogenesis snowstorm here on LI. Got about 14 inches where I am and I must say, for my needs, 2 stage was way too cumbersome. Worked well so I am not knocking it. Just think it is too big for my needs. Just hard to maneuver in some tight spaces I have. So I went back today and the dealer exchanged it for the Snowmaster 824. He is delivering the new Snowmaster and picking up the Powermax end of this week. Super glad that we got the storm right after I got the 2 stage to actually test in real conditions. Hopefully we'll get another storm so I can test the Snowmaster out just as quickly. I'll update once we get another storm...


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## vinnycom (Nov 6, 2017)

u would hate the old school sb's.
i bought for cheap a non working 28/10 sb, my first ever, fixed her up and wow talk about hard to maneuver in tight places. 
but i bought mainly to do the eod which i thought i was going to die doing it last year. my moto is to get more than what u need for the "just in case" scenario. oh boy shes is all that. 
my thinking is its just easier to shovel my 4 car drive and put the snow at the eod than i will use my beast to finish it off, imo faster and easier but this year snow is lacking to fully test out my theory, cold yes but snow not so much.


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## LouC (Dec 5, 2016)

I've been using a 1998 Toro 3000 2 stroke single stage here on Long Island for about 20 years. The only problems I've had with it are frozen EOD and other frozen over spots. It coped well with the most recent storm even though I had to wait till the next day to clear it due to the high winds. The single stage works well for me because I have 2 narrow drive ways and walkways, the easier manoverability of the single is its advantage. A heavy 2 stage would cope better with the frozen EOD but be worse everywhere else. The Snowmaster I think is a good compromise.


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## Snowbelt_subie (Dec 20, 2016)

i believe single stage is the way to go for most people as long as you have a 5+ hp model. all the 2 stage guys will say oh but the EOD is 10 ft tall and hard as concrete.

personally ive never seen anything like that in my area it must be a northeast thing. it might be a Ft higher than the snowfall in the drive and its manageable for a single stage as long as you dont leave it sit for 2 days in 10 degree temps.


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## LouC (Dec 5, 2016)

What I do is take some extra time and break up the EOD with a shovel; that makes it a lot easier. I do love the inherent mechanical simplicity of a 2 stroke engine + the simple power transmission of a single stage design. There is just not a lot to go wrong.


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## Jatoxico (Jan 6, 2018)

I have both. Two stroke Toro and 2 stage Craftsman (MTD). The Toro is remarkable for its size and punches way above it's weight class. I did the "bombogenesis" storm with it including the EOD and it does extremely well, gets down to the pavement and fast.

Not having self propel hurts the Toro though when doing the paths back to the wood shed and for the oil fill.

For 2-4" the two stage is not great but the Toro shines.

The 2 stage typically comes out at 14" or when the drifts pile up. This last storm was a tweener and could have used the 2 stage for some places.

I agree with others, snow consistency has a lot to do with it as does grade. If you have a grade self propel becomes more important.


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