# Roller Skid Iterative Design



## Russell Stephan (Feb 9, 2021)

The problem with building/fabricating is, what's known in mathematical circles as, "Exponential Issue Decay."

Your first iteration solves 80% or so of the problems you wanted to eliminate. It also creates new problems. It _may_, on occasions, solve problems you didn't anticipate.

The second fabrication iteration halves the 20% issues you missed the first time. The third go-around halves the halve from the second go-around... If you're a perfectionist, life is going to be mighty disappointing, because the exponential decay curve never truly reaches zero or anywhere near due to time/resource constraints.

A number of years ago, I replaced the friction skids on my machines with angle iron outriggers and plastic casters. After a season of use, I found the wear characteristics of the plastic wheels to be lacking. I replaced the casters with cast iron wheel examples. The cast iron versions have been a joy!

All would be well if I just stuck to my relatively flat and level driveways and sidewalks. But, I blow snow for many of the neighbors and usually clear a couple of miles of sidewalk nearby. Many of these out-and-about clearing efforts encounter sharp ledges of concrete that bang in to the wheels or edge of the intake scoop with a rather sudden and aggressive jolt. Many times as I'm tooling along clearing the sidewalks at a brisk pace, a ledge has stopped the forward travel of the blower to an instant halt. I keep walking and end up taking the control panel of the machine right in the muff puff.

Now, an iteration work-up of the effort to mitigate the issue.

The casters are 2". Making them larger in diameter would certainly curtail the sharper edges they encounter. But, the effort of fabricating a structurally solid axle at the increased height would be prohibitive. I'm thinking a 45° angled deflector on the front of the angle iron would allow for the machine to ski up over the edge with far less sudden stop effects.

Welcome to the journey of issue mitigation iteration #3!

Stay tuned!

------

Here's a photo of the first-pass iteration with the plastic caster. The angle iron remained unchanged as I swapped out the plastic wheel for a cast iron version.

The crash bumper roller skid angle iron will need to be longer for the front end to match up with the front of the blower scoop.


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## Cstanis (Oct 19, 2021)

Maybe missing something but how do you adjust your scraper bar clearance. The rollers appear to be fixed.


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## Russell Stephan (Feb 9, 2021)

Here's a view of the first iteration of the roller skid to provide the location of the OEM friction skid mounting holes.


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## Russell Stephan (Feb 9, 2021)

> Maybe missing something but how do you adjust your scraper
> bar clearance. The rollers appear to be fixed.


The mounting holes for the angle iron are slotted just like an OEM friction skid. But, unlike the OEM slots, only one needs to be slotted and it doesn't need to be slotted all that much to provide the necessary pivot. Once tightened into place, no more adjustment is necessary since the roller skids don't wear.


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## Catch—22 (Oct 22, 2021)

Russell Stephan said:


> The problem with building/fabricating is, what's known in mathematical circles as, "Exponential Issue Decay."
> 
> Your first iteration solves 80% or so of the problems you wanted to eliminate. It also creates new problems. It _may_, on occasions, solve problems you didn't anticipate.
> 
> ...


Well… Exponential Issue Decay!
Didn't know “it” had a name, haha. I know “someone” who ran that curve to infinity more than once….ahem.


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## cpchriste (Jan 19, 2014)

Please continue reporting, i'm experiencing similar issues and considering similar solution.


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## Cstanis (Oct 19, 2021)

You are bringing back all of my engineering classes 😆


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## Sam Am I (Oct 28, 2021)

Wondering if the loooong horizontal plane of the angle iron will tend to make/create a hydroplane/foil effect? As the flat horizontal plane passes over snow (thicker/EOD type), it might tend to compress under the plane and push up on the bucket. Maybe sloping the horizontal plane slightly nose down into the on coming snow will tend to push the bucket down slightly......Just a though, but maybe the scraper bar tending to pull down will counter act any up force, if any is created.


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## Oneacer (Jan 3, 2011)

Too wide for me .....


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## Sam Am I (Oct 28, 2021)

Oneacer said:


> Too wide for me .....


It'd be catching all kinds of stuff, I have too small of spaces maybe.......Wonder if it could go inside, forward/away of the auger toward the front of the bucket? Not sure why they have to be on the outside or maybe I'm missing something...Hmmm


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## Oneacer (Jan 3, 2011)

Running skids in the bucket are an augers worst nightmare, especially ones that large and cumbersome.


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## Russell Stephan (Feb 9, 2021)

> Wondering if the loooong horizontal plane of the angle iron will tend
> to make/create a hydroplane/foil effect?


Something to think about, for sure.

Another solution I'm mulling over is the dirt bike disc rotor shark fin idea. Weld on a cam shaped flat of metal to the front of the angle iron duplicating the rounded bottom taper of the scoop side panel.



> Too wide for me .....


Yeah, that was a concern of mine at the start. But, it's turned out to not be all that much of an issue for my situation.


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## Catch—22 (Oct 22, 2021)

Ahh…(God help me…) I think I see your vision, you propose to mount the new angled piece to effectively limit which encounters the obstruction first…the ramp or the wheel. That sounds like a simple and clever way to deal with varying surfaces. Anything under the lowest point of the ramp, the wheels can roll over, more than that and the ramps deflect the machine over. And if you add taper to the horizontal in the same fashion, the outrigger setup will deflect off, instead of catching on things.

Now…if you had caster wheels, think of the ease of turning..oh, wait (the sound of the Exponential Issue Decay horn)…best not travel down that path.


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## Russell Stephan (Feb 9, 2021)

> Wonder if it could go inside


During my research on this project, I ran across someone that had created 4" wheels or so out of 3/16" plate steel. With a bushing slightly thicker than 3/16" you get the large diameter wheel to handle the bumps _and_ a very narrow profile to keep the bucket around stock width when the friction skids are included.

Depending on the inside clearance of the auger, such a solution _might_ be moved, "indoors."

I didn't want to put any additional holes in my scoop or the plate wheel would be a possiblity.


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## Russell Stephan (Feb 9, 2021)

.


> Now…if you had caster wheels, think of the ease of turning..oh, wait (the sound of the
> Exponential Issue Decay horn)…best not travel down that path.


I assume you're referencing swivel casters? I thought about that too, originally. But, decided against it due to corrosion concerns of the swivel bearings.

As it turns out, the fixed casters allow the blower to turn just fine. It's no harder and possibly easier than with the OEM friction skids.


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## paulm12 (May 22, 2015)

so where on the curve was version 2? and where do you expect version 3 to be?


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## Russell Stephan (Feb 9, 2021)

> so where on the curve was version 2? and where do you expect version 3 to be?


Version #2 is not pictured yet. It involves the cast iron casters. which functioned beautifully except for the ledge/edge crash issue all last season.

Version #3 is currently in the late stages of mental design. Inertia is carrying me to the dirt bike disc shark fin direction due to minimal material requirements and fabrication effort.


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## Catch—22 (Oct 22, 2021)

Russell Stephan said:


> .
> 
> I assume you're referencing swivel casters? I thought about that too, originally. But, decided against it due to corrosion concerns of the swivel bearings.
> 
> As it turns out, the fixed casters allow the blower to turn just fine. It's no harder and possibly easier than with the OEM friction skids.


Post pics when vers. 3 is done… I don't have the need, but think it's a clever way to keep the machine from impacting “the plums” (as Jeremy Clarkson would say).


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## cpchriste (Jan 19, 2014)

Russell Stephan said:


> During my research on this project, I ran across someone that had created 4" wheels or so out of 3/16" plate steel. With a bushing slightly thicker than 3/16" you get the large diameter wheel to handle the bumps _and_ a very narrow profile to keep the bucket around stock width when the friction skids are included.
> I didn't want to put any additional holes in my scoop or the plate wheel would be a possiblity.


Craftman blowers from the late 70s used a 5" dia wheel of 1/8" steel mounted to the scoop sides using a shoulder bolt as an axle with no bushing. There were 3 holes available to get some vertical adjustment. They worked well and were durable. There were also skids mounted behind the scoop to deal with soft surfaces.


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## UNDERTAKER (Dec 30, 2013)

*Use polyurethane wheels and double them up on the plate. So you are running four total. *


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## Zilla (2 mo ago)

Will someone provide me reasons why wheels would offer an improved replacement for skid shoes? It seems like a simple design made so much more complicated. Im not an engineer but my 8th grade math teacher utilized the KISS principle ;-)


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## Sam Am I (Oct 28, 2021)

I think wheels are primarily desired over skid shoes (*Poly) due to skids can wear down/out over time(esp if ran on rough/courser surfaces) and wheels are more of a forever thing..........Isn't KISS a band? J/K 

*Poly shoes are preferred over steel shoes because steel can tend to scratch/mar certain finished surfaces up.


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## Zilla (2 mo ago)

Not sure why they haven't made snowmobiles, skiis, sleds, ice skates, etc with wheels yet than. We have struck gold with this idea


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## Russell Stephan (Feb 9, 2021)

> Will someone provide me reasons why wheels would offer an
> improved replacement for skid shoes?


Gladly! As mentioned above, I clear the driveways of numerous neighbors and take care of a couple of miles of community sidewalk. Friction skids of any kind wouldn't even last a season with those distances. In addition, I wouldn't want to be adjusting friction skids every storm to keep the scraper bar from excessive wear.

A nice side benefit of roller skids is that tucking the blower away in the garage by lifting up on the handle bars of the machine and allowing it to skate around effortlessly on the front wheels makes for easy stuffing into tight corner spaces without marring the garage floor.

To each their own.


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## Sam Am I (Oct 28, 2021)

Zilla said:


> Not sure why they haven't made snowmobiles, skiis, sleds, ice skates, etc with wheels yet than. We have struck gold with this idea


lol......I think when the design is meant to stay afloat on top of a surface, like snow/ice(or water) surface, fiction becomes way less and therefor wear is way less and no wheels would be needed. Blowers are primarily designed to get right down close and run at the dirt/asphalt/concrete surface.

However I think I saw somewhere a blower wheel design that used a combo of a small ski with a wheel poking through the middle for the blower guy that wanted the skids to glide on snow and yet roll on asphalt if he desired both........Funny thing about that is it think I've seen that design on snowmobiles skies that run on streets when the guy goes from snow to no snow road.


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## Oneacer (Jan 3, 2011)

" why they haven't made snowmobiles, skiis, sleds, ice skates, etc with wheels yet "

As Sam mentioned, because the items you mention ride on the snow, and need a wide snowy surface to glide over, with the exception of the ice skates, which glide over ice, not an asphalt driveway, unless you truly want to skate over asphalt, then you can, if you have what they call in-line roller blades.

It is a known fact that poly slides/glides over asphalt way better than its grabbing, rust wielding counterpart. It's also a known fact that a wheel will glide over pavement better than a flat steel surface. So, when you incorporate the skids, with a wheel protruding from its center, you have something that really works, called roller skids, and glides along very well.


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## Zilla (2 mo ago)

Yea I have seen them for sale, still doesn't convince me its just not another rotating part to break. I think this design was all for fun, which I support modifying anything for fun. But in reality my ST824 still has the same skids from the late 90s and the scraper bar is holding around an eighth with only a slight slope from level


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## tabora (Mar 1, 2017)

Zilla said:


> Will someone provide me reasons why wheels would offer an improved replacement for skid shoes? It seems like a simple design made so much more complicated. Im not an engineer but my 8th grade math teacher utilized the KISS principle ;-)


They were designed by engineer Bill Raftery. I've had email exchanges with him and he was kind enough to send me a set of the skids as well as the offset adapters for my Honda HSS1332. The important features are ease of motion/steering, non-marking of surfaces & non-wearing bearing surfaces that don't require height adjustment over time.

Here's what Bill said about the genesis of the Roller Skid. MTD Products (Arnold, Craftsman, etc.) licensed his ideas:

_"To make a long story short, I turned 60 and bought a snow blower thinking it was going to be like mowing the lawn. Wow, was I in for a surprise! I was faced with going back into the house after only half an hour and confessing to my wife that I just got my butt kicked. I was exhausted! That's how it all started. I spent the entire Winter mocking up quite a number of solutions that resulted in the Roller-Skid..._​​_... to continue, I found that most of my exhaustion was caused because I was constantly fighting with the machine to keep it moving in a straight line. This was because the steel skids were scraping, grabbing and pulling me from side to side depending which skid was encountering the most resistance. This was because of areas on my driveway that had more or less snow covering the surface. Heaven help me if the right skid hit bare concrete and the left skid was on ice._​​_The original fix I came up with was simply attaching a wheel where the skid was bolted onto the side of the auger box. This was great until I hit just ice and snow... and then I missed the skid! It was at that time that it occurred to me: WHY NOT HAVE BOTH?!_​​_Fact is, I'm not only trying to make my life easier... but I'm also aware that by rolling over the surface, I'm not damaging the surfaces any more. I learned this by talking to some contacts I made at Ariens. (Great folks by the way!) They informed me that equally important, the roller-skid design I was working on would protect surfaces. This was becoming increasingly important with all the stamped, decorative concrete driveways and walkways out there."_​
There was a V1 that didn't work out too well. What you can purchase now is the much-improved V2. Sadly, you can't get the offset adapters any more.


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## kozal01 (10 mo ago)

The main issue I predict with these is the casters freezing up and resulting in flat spots. I have some experience with plastic skid wheels and some hardened tool steel wheels fixed the problem.


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## Zilla (2 mo ago)

Ok I'm beginning to understand the target market for product placement. I might be retired but I only just turned 46 so I can still man handle the thing around and bend over to adjust the skids lol


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## tabora (Mar 1, 2017)

kozal01 said:


> The main issue I predict with these is the casters freezing up and resulting in flat spots.


Well. I have 5 years experience with them (and @Oneacer has had experience with them on MANY machines). I screwed up once and ground one flat because I didn't do a proper inspection before starting to blow snow. Easily fixed with some JB Weld Plastic Bonder, though. He has never had that issue and we both lube the wheels with lithium spray grease or something similar. The skids are now available with the mounting hardware including a spare pair of wheels. Should be a lifetime supply.








Amazon.com : Masnln Rolling Skid Shoes 490-241-0038 Fits Most 2 and 3 Stage Snow Throwers with Plastic Wheels Hardware Kit : Patio, Lawn & Garden


Amazon.com : Masnln Rolling Skid Shoes 490-241-0038 Fits Most 2 and 3 Stage Snow Throwers with Plastic Wheels Hardware Kit : Patio, Lawn & Garden



www.amazon.com


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## Oneacer (Jan 3, 2011)

Actually, 28.99 w/free shipping is a good price with the extra wheels (though probably never needed)... Prior to using, I do dismantle and apply Loctite Blue 242 (removable with hand tools) and re-assemble.


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## kozal01 (10 mo ago)

tabora said:


> Well. I have 5 years experience with them (and @Oneacer has had experience with them on MANY machines). I screwed up once and ground one flat because I didn't do a proper inspection before starting to blow snow. Easily fixed with some JB Weld Plastic Bonder, though. He has never had that issue and we both lube the wheels with lithium spray grease or something similar. The skids are now available with the mounting hardware including a spare pair of wheels. Should be a lifetime supply.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I ran these for over 10 years on my Platinum 30 after I made the steel wheels, the plastic ones lasted only a couple hours. The new style I put on my 926LE last year and had simular results, wheels had flat spots the second time I ran them. Poly skids went on and that's what I stuck with on my new Ariens. Turn your back on these plastic wheel skid shoes once and they are junk. I dont have time for that. I can see your buddies with the guy that made these so you're being defensive but over a decade of running these I know that plastic wheels dont work long term without perfect conditions. Steel wheels or rubber roller blade wheels are the way to go for low maintenance and reliable skid wheels.


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## Zilla (2 mo ago)

Well this is fun. I wonder if you guys ever pushed a grocery cart through a snowy parking lot(isn't easy and doesnt go very straight) or if you have someone else do your shopping for you while you are home wheeling your snowblower around your marble driveway


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## Sam Am I (Oct 28, 2021)

Zilla said:


> Well this is fun. I wonder if you guys ever pushed a grocery cart through a snowy parking lot(isn't easy and doesnt go very straight) or if you have someone else do your shopping for you while you are home wheeling your snowblower around your marble driveway


NOW this ^^^^ I've always wanted to make a drive-on Toboggan that your standard shopping cart/s could be rolled onto/into as you leave the store and head into the DEEP unplowed parking lot. It auto-locks/captures the wheels in place once driven on and NOW it's a ski-cart!!! A real PITA pushing a grocery cart in snow!!

If the carts wheels now stuck/extended through the bottom of the sled bottom say a 1/4", then all the carts in a given store could be both indoor and out(snow or not) and just remain a permanent Toboggen'ized shopping carts year around...LOL. I reckon this would be a more farther "North" thing........


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## Russell Stephan (Feb 9, 2021)

Who knew personal skid choices had such a fervent dogmatic following?


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## Sam Am I (Oct 28, 2021)

Yes, borderline cult!


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

I guess it depends a bit on what show conditions you are in. Here in "da Yoop", bare pavement is not that common once winter really gets going, and I have never seen a mark on my blacktop drive from, or worn down my steel skids in decades . . . If you repeatedly snow/melt/?? and get clear pavement a lot, then it would obviously be far more of an issue.


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## tabora (Mar 1, 2017)

kozal01 said:


> Turn your back on these plastic wheel skid shoes once and they are junk. I dont have time for that. I can see your buddies with the guy that made these so you're being defensive but over a decade of running these I know that plastic wheels dont work long term without perfect conditions.


Not being at all defensive, but my experience has been quite different from yours; c'est la vie. I'm done with this thread.


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## kozal01 (10 mo ago)

tadawson said:


> I guess it depends a bit on what show conditions you are in. Here in "da Yoop", bare pavement is not that common once winter really gets going, and I have never seen a mark on my blacktop drive from, or worn down my steel skids in decades . . . If you repeatedly snow/melt/?? and get clear pavement a lot, then it would obviously be far more of an issue.


In my case the steel skids would grab on my concrete driveway when one skid was on the packed down snow from tire tracks and one was on clean concrete. It would drag my machine sideways. On grass and gravel it was fine. Wheeled skids fixed that and so did the poly skids.


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## Oneacer (Jan 3, 2011)

I'm in the poly camp ....... huge difference ....


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## Russell Stephan (Feb 9, 2021)

> I'm done with this thread.
It only takes one turd to spoil the holiday punch bowl. And ain't it funny how not a single innocuous punch bowl is safe?


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## kozal01 (10 mo ago)

Russell Stephan said:


> > I'm done with this thread.
> 
> It only takes one turd to spoil the holiday punch bowl. And ain't it funny how not a single innocuous punch bowl is safe?


Thin skinned much? I offered a suggestion based on over a decade of experience with roller skids so that you would not be disappointed when the plastic wheels of your casters dont work. Learn for yourself, its great to see your work with this but some of us already know the downsides. Id love to see a design like yours with rubber roller blade wheels, I think that would be a great option that may not freeze and get flat spots.


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## Russell Stephan (Feb 9, 2021)

> Thin skinned much?


It isn't always about you...

There is absolutely no reason this thread needed to descend into snotty remarks and veiled putdowns of _anyone's_ preferences, circumstances, and/or personal notions of what's best for them.

So, why the necessity of the snotty remarks and such? And this isn't the first thread where the instigator decided to go into the sticky slimy damp tissue mess at the drop of a post for no reason than their own pathology. Why not just a comment on what one finds as their different personal solution pluses/minuses and let following folks decide what to try on their own?

Nowhere in this thread is someone advocating for one and only one solution. Nowhere in this thread is someone selling a good or service specifying there _is_ only one solution.

Gobsmacked is a good word for it... I've commented numerous times before on numerous other forums, "There's no need to go to the zoo anymore to see primates throwing poo at their cagemates."


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## kozal01 (10 mo ago)

Russell Stephan said:


> It isn't always about you...
> 
> There is absolutely no reason this thread needed to descend into snotty remarks and veiled putdowns of _anyone's_ preferences, circumstances, and/or personal notions of what's best for them.
> 
> ...


Ok fine, I'll say what everyone else is too chicken to say, your "design" is flawed in almost every way and you can attach all the quotes and BS verbiage you want but it doesn't change the fact that your creation is garbage. This wheel has already been invented (pun intended) and some of us have already weeded out the flaws. Best of luck to you.


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## Yanmar Ronin (Jan 31, 2015)

@Russell Stephan 

Having looked at your concept I truly believe you should be doing more listening here. The design puts stresses on the bucket that it's not designed for, and the wheel arrangement is highly unlikely to hold up for very long.

I applaud your sense of inventiveness, however. These guys have been playing this game for an awful long time and have a very good understanding of what works, and what doesn't.

Regards,


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## Auger1 (Dec 4, 2020)

Here's my roller wheel home made junk,


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## kozal01 (10 mo ago)

Auger1 said:


> Here's my roller wheel home made junk,
> View attachment 203950


Thats a solid design. Simple and no plastic wheels. How long have you run this?


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## Auger1 (Dec 4, 2020)

kozal01 said:


> Thats a solid design. Simple and no plastic wheels. How long have you run this?


On one machine 2 years now and the blower rolls pretty easy.


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## Russell Stephan (Feb 9, 2021)

> The design puts stresses on the bucket that it's not designed for,
> and the wheel arrangement is highly unlikely to hold up for very long.


Stress? The mounting of the angle iron utilizes the OEM friction skid holes. What is the source of the added stress you're referencing?

Push comes to shove, I destroy the machine and have to buy another $50 unit off Craigslist. But, given iteration #2 has around 50 hours of runtime on it with zero indications of trouble, I'll let it ride.


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## Yanmar Ronin (Jan 31, 2015)

Russell Stephan said:


> Stress? The mounting of the angle iron utilizes the OEM friction skid holes. What is the source of the added stress you're referencing?


You're putting a lot of bending stress on those thin bucket sides. Those are really only designed to deal with a linear force. And as you plow through snow and the force on those wheels compounds, so will your problems.

You sound willing to damage the machine in order to prove your point. If so... so be it.

We're genuinely trying to help you avoid that.


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## Russell Stephan (Feb 9, 2021)

> You're putting a lot of bending stress on those thin bucket sides.


An early 80's Ariens bucket?

Obviously, you've never had to pick one up.


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## Russell Stephan (Feb 9, 2021)

> An early 80's Ariens bucket?
> 
> Obviously, you've never had to pick one up.


I can only imagine the consternation when I mount up the two 20lb. front-end ballast plates I'm currently painting.


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## Yanmar Ronin (Jan 31, 2015)

Russell Stephan said:


> Obviously, you've never had to pick one up.


If you want to compare size... my blower weighs in at just over 800 pounds bone-dry. 

Anyhow... go for it. Grind those angle iron corners round please though, before you do yourself an injury as well.

🍻


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## Russell Stephan (Feb 9, 2021)

> If you want to compare size....


No, I don't. I simply pointed out there is no thin gauge metal on an early 1980's Ariens bucket.

But, things are now making a lot more sense.


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## Zilla (2 mo ago)

I personally like the aforementioned shopping cart idea. Now that was funny response to my poking fun at wheeled skids.


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## Sam Am I (Oct 28, 2021)

Zilla said:


> I personally like the aforementioned shopping cart idea. Now that was funny response to my poking fun at wheeled skids.


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## kozal01 (10 mo ago)

Russell Stephan said:


> An early 80's Ariens bucket?
> 
> Obviously, you've never had to pick one up.


What gauge is the steel on your machine?


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## Russell Stephan (Feb 9, 2021)

The mental design phase is complete. The trigger has been pulled on fabrication of the dirt bike brake disc shark fin implementation.

Starting stock is 3.5"x3.5"x0.25" angle iron. I would have preferred lighter 3/16" stock. But, there was plenty of 1/4" on-hand already.

The individual outriggers are 10.5" long. One side of the channel has been cut down length-wise to 2.25". The 2.25" side will be the top mounting plate for the casters.

The taller downward leg of the channel will be extended out to the front of the bucket and follow its rounded contour. The bottom edge of the outrigger piece will be 1/4" or so short of the length of the caster assembly.

A photo of the 10.5" lengths of outrigging channel. The top side of the channel has been cut to a 2.25" width. The length along the side of the caster will be contoured to match that of the snowblower bucket but sit a little proud to absorb pavement ledges and edges.









This is iteration #2 of the roller skid using a cast iron caster. Per the hour meter installed for the engine, the setup has 22 hours and change of problem-free usage.


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## Russell Stephan (Feb 9, 2021)

Shark fin angle iron cut and tapered in the front. A caster is installed in the top example to show how well the roller is protected from sharp edges/ledges.











The shark fin angle iron piece installed on the bucket and viewed from the outside.










The camera is resting on the concrete floor of the garage looking from inside the blower's bucket.










Holes through the 1/4" angle iron brought to you by a VFD modified drill press. The drill press was a C note off Craigslist, the 2HP, 3-phast electric motor was also off CL for $25 due to roached bearings which were easily replaced with the hydraulic H press. The VFD unit was a bit more pricy at around $300. They're a little cheaper these days. This unit will run off 120 or 240 volts single-phase. I'm currently powering it with 120 volts. But, should I need every ounce of the 2HP motor, I'd convert the setup to function at 240 volts.

With the infinite speed adjustment capability, IPM (inches per minute) can be dialed in for drilling glass, plastic, wood, metal of any thickness, and metal with any reasonable hole saw too! A highly recommended shop upgrade if using a drill press.


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## Russell Stephan (Feb 9, 2021)

> What gauge is the steel on your machine?


I put a dial caliper on the bucket today. 0.111" through the paint, so 12 or 13 gauge.


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## Catch—22 (Oct 22, 2021)

Russell Stephan said:


> Shark fin angle iron cut and tapered in the front. A caster is installed in the top example to show how well the roller is protected from sharp edges/ledges.
> 
> View attachment 204120
> 
> ...


That's a proper drill press and speed control. Sold / donated my big shop equipment several years ago. I'm looking for something similar, now that I have the room again.


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## kozal01 (10 mo ago)

Russell Stephan said:


> I put a dial caliper on the bucket today. 0.111" through the paint, so 12 or 13 gauge.


Thanks! Now we can put all these BS myths about the old machines being made with better and thicker steel to rest. This is the bucket on my brand new Ariens.









Btw, cutting speed is measured in SFM (surface feet per minute), not IPM, that’s a measure of linear movement, in this case the speed the quill of your drill press would move if it had a power feed quill for example. 

Good work on the iron wheels though, that would be an improvement for sure.


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## Russell Stephan (Feb 9, 2021)

> Now we can put all these BS myths about the old machines being made
> with better and thicker steel to rest.


???

Someone claimed the outriggers would tear up the bucket. No, they won't. Maybe it would tear up their bucket? You'll have to ask them about the metal gauge on their machine.

And the tearing up the bucket claim is rather humorous considering the above installed shark fin rail photo. It looks no different than a traditional skid minus the folded under ski surface.


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## Marty013 (Mar 14, 2014)

just a thought 
what if you extend the side backwards.. so the wheels can be mounted inboard the bucket width.. just trailing the bucket itself..


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## Russell Stephan (Feb 9, 2021)

> what if you extend the side backwards.. so the wheels can be mounted
> inboard the bucket width.. just trailing the bucket itself..


I just took a looksee and it appears there's more than enough room.

Using 1/4" or 5/16" flat bar stock one could drill, cut a spindle on the lathe, and plug weld the spindle onto the bar for a stack of bearing or skate wheels.


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## Yanmar Ronin (Jan 31, 2015)

Looking better.


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## Russell Stephan (Feb 9, 2021)

> Looking better.


That's why it's called "Iterative Design!"


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## Russell Stephan (Feb 9, 2021)

> what if you extend the side backwards.. so the wheels can be mounted
> inboard the bucket width.. just trailing the bucket itself..


Could even tack a bracket on the outside of the impeller housing offering another point of anchorage for an "L" frame supporting the wheels.


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## Russell Stephan (Feb 9, 2021)

> Could even tack a bracket on the outside of the impeller housing offering
> another point of anchorage for an "L" frame supporting the wheels.


I like the back-of-bucket idea!

Of course, if you're gonna weld stuff, might as well just put slotted brackets on the back of the bucket with an axle shaft between them for the wheels.

Go old school reel push mower!


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## Oneacer (Jan 3, 2011)

And then put an adjustable handle to move that axle for an up and down adjustment......


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## Russell Stephan (Feb 9, 2021)

> And then put an adjustable handle to move that axle for an up and down adjustment......


Yeah, been thinkin' `bout that! The bracket on a hinge with some all-thread acting as the adjustment mechanism.


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## kozal01 (10 mo ago)

I think the wheels being closer to the front of the bucket like you have now is better than on the back of the bucket.


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## Russell Stephan (Feb 9, 2021)

Shark fin roller skids now have their first coat of paint.

I hit the skids with a hole saw to provide access to the inner-most caster mounting fastener. Probably not necessary. But, yesterday I installed the skids and hit a couple of edges/ledges. The knife edge (1/4" steel) seemed to dig in rather than glide over. So, I thought it a good idea to put some ski steel on the knife edge for a little more surface area.

The grey is after the areas to be welded had been sandblasted.









The metal ski welded to the knife edge. I made the skis purposefully long so placement during welding had plenty of wiggle room to adjust. Once the ski was in-place I decided to keep the big toe. The toe is inboard with the bucket so it shouldn't catch errant real toes.










Welded, sandblasted, and supplied with Romex scrap for spay painting.


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## Auger1 (Dec 4, 2020)

Looks to be warmer this weekend so I may make some new roller wheel skids. I will take some pictures on how to do this for everyone.


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## aldfam4 (Dec 25, 2016)

Very interesting topic!!


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## Russell Stephan (Feb 9, 2021)

Behind-the-bucket skid example.


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## tabora (Mar 1, 2017)

Russell Stephan said:


> Behind-the-bucket skid example.


I have had both an HS80K1TAS and a HSS1332AATD with the rear skids. In both cases, I ultimately added side skids and raised up the rear skids so that they only touch down when the front skids go off an edge like the top step leading from my patio down to the driveway. Seems to work much better for me that way.


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## Auger1 (Dec 4, 2020)

tabora said:


> I have had both an HS80K1TAS and a HSS1332AATD with the rear skids. In both cases, I ultimately added side skids and raised up the rear skids so that they only touch down when the front skids go off an edge like the top step leading from my patio down to the driveway. Seems to work much better for me that way.
> View attachment 204229


I do have a couple of pairs of those wheels on 2 of m y machines but after testing last week my homemade roller wheels roll easier, so much so, that my Compact 24 was rolling backwards down my sidewalk last Sat. afternoon. lol.


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## Russell Stephan (Feb 9, 2021)

Drying nicely! Two or three more coats followed with an oven bake and the things will be ready for installation.

The garage is currently full of orange painty things drying -- FrankenChute and the two 20 lb. ballast plates are still receiving coats.


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## Sam Am I (Oct 28, 2021)

If need be, the steel I bet is still strong enough you could trim some of the back off........Just a though.


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## Russell Stephan (Feb 9, 2021)

> If need be, the steel I bet is still strong enough you could trim some
> of the back off........Just a though


Certainly a good suggestion. No sense in carting around more than necessary.

The improvement will have to wait a few years when I go at them again for weathering clean-up and repainting.


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## daoswald (1 mo ago)

I'm sure I'm late to the conversation but hear me out (if you wish):

I used to have a TroyBilt Storm 21. It had approximately 5" or 6" wheels in back. Under the right conditions, with snow that was fairly packable, or icy weather, those wheels would become like blocks of packed ice, and not roll. You had to hammer the ice off of them to get them to roll. (I have a 2-stage now so this isn't a problem.)

Any wheels that size or smaller, up at the front; the business end of the snow blower, are going to become packed with ice, too, and will stop rolling. This will make them basically skids instead of wheels. Basically you're designing a way to bring a 1-stage problem to your 2-stage blower. And after the wheel locks up with ice and snow, it will skid, wear down, go out of "round", and will never roll right again.


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## Russell Stephan (Feb 9, 2021)

> Any wheels that size or smaller, up at the front; the business end of the
> snow blower, are going to become packed with ice, too, and will stop
> rolling. This will make them basically skids instead of wheels. Basically
> you're designing a way to bring a 1-stage problem to your 2-stage blower.
> ...


Three seasons and around 50 hours of use with the currently-sized casters have been no problem. The _only_ thing changing for this exercise is an improvement in the caster carrier/outrigger.

And if the casters did lock up, it would be no different than a standard friction skid.

But, if I experience the issue, I'll be sure to report the problem.


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## Russell Stephan (Feb 9, 2021)

> Three seasons and around 50 hours of use with the currently-sized casters
> have been no problem. The _only_ thing changing for this exercise is an
> improvement in the caster carrier/outrigger.


I did a quick lookup of the date of the photo initiating this thread... The castor setup was originally installed in the Fall of 2018. So, it's seen four seasons of battlefield conditions.

Draw the conclusions appropriate for one's own situation and requirements.


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## Auger1 (Dec 4, 2020)

I didn't get any made last weekend as welders and wed driveways are not a good mix for me. Will make some soon as I have 3 people waiting for some.


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## Russell Stephan (Feb 9, 2021)

> Many times as I'm tooling along clearing the sidewalks at a brisk pace,
> a ledge has stopped the forward travel of the blower to an instant halt.
> I keep walking and end up taking the control panel of the machine right
> in the muff puff.


Fast forward to 0:25:


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## tabora (Mar 1, 2017)

Russell Stephan said:


>


Solar Flex??? How about Solar Plexus...


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## Russell Stephan (Feb 9, 2021)

> Solar Flex??? How about Solar Plexus...


This past June, there was an ad up on Facebook Marketplace for "Settlin' tanks."

That's country-speak for, "acetylene."

I made a comment and referenced the link... I _should_ have screen captured it, though. It still gives me a chuckle when recalling.


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## Russell Stephan (Feb 9, 2021)

> It still gives me a chuckle when recalling.


And too, "ark" welders, which, pop up far more frequently then one would think.


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## Oneacer (Jan 3, 2011)

You would think he would know where the sidewalk interconnects with his driveway, and any other "grabber" cracks and up-heaves are .... 

Guess he will remember now ....


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## tabora (Mar 1, 2017)

"Our Father, who art in Heaven, Howard be thy name..."


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## Russell Stephan (Feb 9, 2021)

Roller skid frames curing fully at 170°F for 72 hours.


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## Russell Stephan (Feb 9, 2021)

Shark fin roller skids fully installed.


Looking from inside the bucket out... The castor wheel is guarded rather well.









The head-on view. Hopefully, I'll suffer far less operator control shots to the delicate region when encountering sharp ledges and edges.









The view from outside the bucket.


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## Sam Am I (Oct 28, 2021)

Looks very legit, nice finish work!!........And of course it depends on how you use your machine(and snow types), but I can't help but wonder with those flavors of facing profiles(the horizontal plane, the wheel's face/width and the 45 angle) if it will tend to want to ski upwards on the incoming snow(esp packed) lifting the bucket up wards not allow the scraper bar to do its job at it's prescribed setting? I wonder where the balance of "falling through" verses not "diving in" is??


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## Russell Stephan (Feb 9, 2021)

> Looks very legit, nice finish work!!


Thank you!



> if it will tend to want to ski upwards on the incoming snow(esp packed) lifting the
> bucket up wards not allow the scraper bar to do its job at it's prescribed setting?


We'll have to see. But, the scraper will be provided more pull-down force than the rather narrow skis of the shark fins, I'm guessing.

I just got back in from testing the shark fin feature. Sharp edged ledges are now certainly far gentler on the sudden stop with a shot to the privates. Too bad the nice painting finish is suffering right out of the gate. But, that's just the way it is!


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## Sam Am I (Oct 28, 2021)

Russell Stephan said:


> Thank you!
> 
> 
> We'll have to see. But, the scraper will be provided more pull-down force than the rather narrow skis of the shark fins, I'm guessing.


Welcome and good point.....The scraper is definitely pulling it down



Russell Stephan said:


> Too bad the nice painting finish is suffering right out of the gate. But, that's just the way it is!


I hear ya, my little touch up bottle is about out


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