# Open vs closed auger



## guyl (Jun 12, 2016)

In another project where I used a friction drive transmission from a MTD blower to convert a broken CVT driven Craftsman blower, I ended up with several other spare parts from that donor MTD machine. One of them is the open augers and gearbox that I saved. My older (and now backup) snowblower is a 10 year old 30" MTD machine that is very similar (and has the same gearbox) but that has the closed auger type. By that I mean those individually stamped out "one circle" metal disks mounted side by side on the auger shaft, three per side. A couple of those had broken from their hubs last year and I somehow managed to weld them back on, although I'm sure they're still not quite up to strength. 

My question is this: would it be worthwhile to replace the closed augers on my backup machine with the open ones? Both machines are roughly the same age, with the closed auger machine being a bit newer. Why did they switch auger types? Better performance, or just a cheaper way of doing things? ie: would using the open auger improve it?


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## e.fisher26 (Nov 6, 2016)

So instead of 2 auger halfs there's multiple on each side of gearbox correct?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## EdwardC (Sep 26, 2016)

I'm not totally sure I follow either, but it sounds like he's comparing a drum style auger to a newer open auger:



















If that is the discussion, one thing that I just learned (I just bought an old Toro 521), the drum style auger was apparently made to limit the amount of snow to avoid overloading the engine. (http://www.snowblowerforum.com/foru...1858-newer-toro-521-vs-older-35-4-5-21-a.html)


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## guyl (Jun 12, 2016)

No not the drum type, but this (closed auger)










There are 4 individual augers on that machine


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## HCBPH (Mar 8, 2011)

That's something I've never tried, but I would think it depends on whether the replacements would fit and the shear pin holes line up plus the auger shaft was long enough to accommodate the replacements. If so, I'd think it has potential option if desired. Even if the holes didn't line up, I'd think you could drill them through the auger rake center if you had to. I would not drill the auger shaft though.


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## guyl (Jun 12, 2016)

I'm not too concerned with the actual task of fitting them on. I know how to drill whatever holes and all that.

I'm more interested in the actual merits of the actual auger types. What are the pros and cons of each type, and why did they switch from the open "ribbon" type (like in EdwardC's first photo) to the closed individual plate type seen now? Cost cutting measure? Actual improvement? I've read somewhere that the idea behind the open type is to mix air into the snow which would help prevent clogging. It used to be either drum or open augers. Drums seem to have disappeared (too costly?) and the closed type is the most recent. But more recent doesn't always mean better. Hence starting the discussion...


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## EdwardC (Sep 26, 2016)

You should try and let us know!  I'd like to think that the manufacturers did some real testing instead of just cost cutting. Maybe the performance is the same, but is easier to manufacture?

One that might be interesting is to compare the auger rotation speeds, maybe one worked better at different speeds?


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## sscotsman (Dec 8, 2010)

Guy,
im not understanding what you mean by "open" and "closed"..
I know which auger styles you are referring to now, but the words "open" and "closed" in reference to them arent making any sense to me.
they are the same concept, just in 2 pieces per snowblower, or 4 pieces per snowblower.

the "4-piece" augers, what Guy is calling "closed", are stamped rather than solid bands of steel, with two thin "halves" per auger piece, hollow inside, and are spot-welded(?) together.
im going to say its 99% likely they exist in that style only because they are cheaper to make that way, and cheaper in quality.
you only see them on the low-end models.

Scot


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## guyl (Jun 12, 2016)

With the help of Google I was able to find where I first saw these terms:

Buying A New Snow Blower FAQS - Read This For The Truth - MovingSnow.com

Scroll down to where you see pics of open flight and closed flight augers. From reading that page, I get the impression that open is somewhat preferable. It's statements like sscotsman's that I'm looking for: "im going to say its 99% likely they exist in that style only because they are cheaper to make that way, and cheaper in quality. you only see them on the low-end models.". Only those with enough time and experience in this game could really know that... 

Other observations are welcome, and I'm looking forward to drawing a general consensus from it all.

Thanks again!


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## sscotsman (Dec 8, 2010)

guyl said:


> With the help of Google I was able to find where I first saw these terms:
> 
> Buying A New Snow Blower FAQS - Read This For The Truth - MovingSnow.com
> 
> Scroll down to where you see pics of open flight and closed flight augers. From reading that page, I get the impression that open is somewhat preferable.


interesting! thanks for the link..
I have never heard those terms before..

googling for those terms some more brings up a total of 6 references on the entire internet..
Four are on movingsnow.com, and two are referencing movingsnow.com.
which means that movngsnow.com is basically the only place those terms have ever been used..
I wonder where they originated? 

Scot


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## driz (Dec 19, 2013)

Quite an I formative article there


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## drmerdp (Feb 9, 2014)

I'd say that the open fight style is the preferred premium style setup. I think the idea with the old toro drum and ayp closed flight augers are to control snow intake for the purpose of reducing engine bogging. Kind of idiot proofing the operater side of things in case the user doesn't slow forward speed.

With the open flight auger the limiting factors are mostly engine torque and forward speed. 

Another thing with the ayp (mtd troybilt cub cadet craftmans) blowers, the gearbox are not very substantial. The physical limiting of snow processing helps to keep those gear boxes from breaking more often.


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## Smitty4ut (Feb 9, 2016)

drmerdp said:


> I'd say that the open fight style is the preferred premium style setup. I think the idea with the old toro drum and ayp closed flight augers are to control snow intake for the purpose of reducing engine bogging. Kind of idiot proofing the operater side of things in case the user doesn't slow forward speed.
> 
> With the open flight auger the limiting factors are mostly engine torque and forward speed.
> 
> Another thing with the ayp (mtd troybilt cub cadet craftmans) blowers, the gearbox are not very substantial. The physical limiting of snow processing helps to keep those gear boxes from breaking more often.


What does AYP mean?


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## sscotsman (Dec 8, 2010)

Smitty4ut said:


> What does AYP mean?


American Yard Products.
one of the older snowblower manufacturers..
Today Husquvarna is the descendant of the AYP snowblower line.




drmerdp said:


> Another thing with the ayp (mtd troybilt cub cadet craftmans) blowers, the gearbox are not very substantial. The physical limiting of snow processing helps to keep those gear boxes from breaking more often.


Im not sure if drmerdp meant this or not, but the way he wrote that suggests that (mtd troybilt cub cadet craftmans) are all made by AYP.
that is not the case..none of those (except for Craftsman) have ever been made by AYP.

MTD makes Cub Cadet and Troy-Bilt (and other brands)
But MTD is not related to AYP.
What used to be AYP is now Husquvarna.

Craftsman snowblowers have been made by both AYP and MTD.

Scot


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## guyl (Jun 12, 2016)

sscotsman said:


> Craftsman snowblowers have been made by both AYP and MTD.
> Scot


And several others over the years. For example I understand that the Craftsman Professional on which I did that transmission project was made by Briggs and Stratton, based on a design that originated with Murray. Briggs and Stratton has bought up several companies over the past few years. I remember seeing a page somewhere that showed you who made your Craftsman snowblower by looking at the first 3 digits of the model number.

From the Wikipedia page for Briggs and Stratton:

"In 2005, the company added Simplicity Manufacturing Inc, and Snapper, Inc, to the Briggs & Stratton Power Products line. Murray, Inc, one of its largest customers, collapsed owing the company $40 million, and to minimize the loss Briggs & Stratton purchased the name, marketing rights and product designs of that company."


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## drmerdp (Feb 9, 2014)

sscotsman said:


> American Yard Products.
> one of the older snowblower manufacturers..
> Today Husquvarna is the descendant of the AYP snowblower line.
> 
> ...


My bad, had my facts wrong. For some reason I thought ayp was MTDs parent company. So mtd makes cub cadet, Troybilt, and the craftsmans. I know Murray made craftsman blowers for a while too.

Thanks for the insight.


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## guyl (Jun 12, 2016)

I was able to find that manufacturer list for Craftsman branded products (and not just snowblowers):

Craftsman OEM List | VintageMachinery.org

My machine model starts with C950, so is Noma/Murray


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## DennisP (Jan 10, 2016)

I know exactly what the OP is talking about, in that when I rebuilt my 1999 vintage Craftsman (MTD) it had open-style augers and I purchased a set of closed-style in expectation of replacing the originals. Well, I ended up sandblasting and repowdercoating the originals and as it turns out they are wider with a bigger overall diameter, so I reused them.

But, in my research, the idea is that the open-style augers self-modulate in that any excess that can't get into the impeller overflows in and through the augers. With the closed-style you basically have it forcing as much as it can to the impeller, so the probability of shearing a pin or overloading the torque of the engine goes up.

Now, that isn't to say that they aren't making the closed-style with too thin of sheetmetal and in turn the augers themselves are bending. I have seen my share of them be tweaked to all ****. Personally I think it is cost savings and the added revenue of people replacing them to indicate why they went with them the way they are. Also with increased torque output of OHV engines used now-a-days they figure they can feed as much as possible and the entire system can deal with it better than it could in the past.

Personally, I have the 1999 Craftsman I redid with open-style augers and I am redoing a 2006 Cub Cadet with closed-style augers so I can do a head-to-head on them. The Craftsman is sporting a new 11hp Tecumseh engine, but everything is new on the machine. The Cub Cadet has the original 10hp Tecumseh, but she checks out "as new" in compression, valve sealing, etc, and everything else on it is new as well, so I can be fairly confident in determining any sort of difference in performance being attributed to the auger design. I will add the Craftsman has the low-style chute and I am upgrading the Cub Cadet to the tall-chute as part of the rebuild, but I figure that is all about where the snow goes, not how well it works in regards to sucking it up and spitting it out.

I will start a new thread when I do some real-world comparisons, including taking some videos if I can.


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## guyl (Jun 12, 2016)

Nice! Let us know your observations.


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## drmerdp (Feb 9, 2014)

DennisP said:


> But, in my research, the idea is that the open-style augers self-modulate in that any excess that can't get into the impeller overflows in and through the augers. With the closed-style you basically have it forcing as much as it can to the impeller, so the probability of shearing a pin or overloading the torque of the engine goes up.


It's actually the other way around, don't forget the drivetrain is propelling the bucket forward into the snow. The open flight allows more snow into the propeller where as the closed flight limits the snow Input.


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## guyl (Jun 12, 2016)

drmerdp said:


> It's actually the other way around, don't forget the drivetrain is propelling the bucket forward into the snow. The open flight allows more snow into the propeller where as the closed flight limits the snow Input.


Yes, but the open flight has lots of empty space between the auger shaft and the ribbon auger. The snow is free to stay there and go in circles if the auger edges can't push it inwards towards the impeller, while the closed auger is more forceful at doing that. That's where I think Dennis' self modulation idea is coming from.


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## drmerdp (Feb 9, 2014)

Not if your forward progress is cramming the snow into the back of the impeller. It's hard to stall an mtd because of the flights limiting the snow input, a Honda Yamaha or Ariens is super easy to stall if your moving forward to quickly. 

newer toros have open flights that can take in more then the impeller can chew, but the impeller bypass "anti clogging bypass" helps to keep the blower from choking.


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## DennisP (Jan 10, 2016)

Well, after this next week I will have the Cub Cadet rebuilt and the first snows of the new year will be interesting to find out exactly which does what...


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## GMH (Dec 31, 2013)

EdwardC said:


> I'm not totally sure I follow either, but it sounds like he's comparing a drum style auger to a newer open auger:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I don't know if this is your machine in the first picture, but the auger on the left side of the picture is on backwards.


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## guyl (Jun 12, 2016)

GMH said:


> I don't know if this is your machine in the first picture, but the auger on the left side of the picture is on backwards.


Actually it's worst than that: that's two left (from the operator's standpoint) augers. Someone ordered a wrong replacement?


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## drmerdp (Feb 9, 2014)

This is the style I'm thinking of.


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## FlamingSpaghetti (Jan 8, 2018)

drmerdp said:


> This is the style I'm thinking of.


These are utter garbage. Not only did the one I have constantly sheer the pins, they're extremely flimsy and tweak easy. I find that they struggle greatly going through packed snow, unlike the ribbon style. I will never buy another machine with this style auger.


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## leonz (Dec 12, 2014)

Flaming spaghetti,


You should check with your sealer to see if that snow blower can have ribbon augers as a replacement. 


I looked up the prices for replacement cross augers and a gearbox for my JD47 inch snow blower and I choked;

The left auger was almost $700.00, the right auger was almost $700.00 and the worm to spur gearbox was almost $700.00. 

For that amount of money I could have most of the money for the 24 inch Yamaha or a nice down payment on a 1028 Yamaha walk behind or purchased an imported atv mounted single stage unit.


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## FlamingSpaghetti (Jan 8, 2018)

leonz said:


> Flaming spaghetti,
> 
> 
> You should check with your sealer to see if that snow blower can have ribbon augers as a replacement.
> ...


I would have if the rest of the machine was decent but I had since parted with this machine. It was a Troy Bilt 26" with an 8.5 HP? engine. There was a lot I did not like about this machine so I ended up just getting the MTD 8/24 I have now. Also picked up a Craftsman II tracked machine and trash picked an Ariens Sno-Thro 7/24.


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## leonz (Dec 12, 2014)

leonz said:


> Flaming spaghetti,
> 
> 
> You should check with your dealer to see if that snow blower can have ribbon augers as a replacement.
> ...


(fixed my typos)


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