# two cycle fuel question: what would you do



## aldfam4 (Dec 25, 2016)

I have a question for the snow blower members here. A couple of days ago I filled my 2 gallon gas can with non ethanol fuel and added the required 2 cycle oil (synthetic) to get a 40:1 ratio. Some experts recommend the high quality 2 cycle oil be tc-w3 and NMMA certified, so I went and filled another 5 gallon container with the same 40:1 ratio and am ready for the upcoming storm that will hit the Northeast around Wednesday. My question is - what can I do with the first batch of fuel? Could I put some in my car next time I fill up? If I can, how much should I add to a full tank? Could that cause problems down the road with my car?
Thanks for any interest.


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## e.fisher26 (Nov 6, 2016)

Just curious, what snowblower do u have


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## aldfam4 (Dec 25, 2016)

e.fisher26 said:


> Just curious, what snowblower do u have
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


1) Toro CCR - 2000
2) Toro CCR - 3650

Those are my 2 cycles I use for snow upto about a foot (powdery variety)


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## paulm12 (May 22, 2015)

I would never add anything but the proper gasoline to my car. Why risk a ~ $20k, $30k , whatever car with $5 of gas. If you are uncomfortable using the gas in your blower, take it in to a shop to be recycled. Most service stations, and many auto parts stores will take old gas or oil. 

Thanks


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## JLawrence08648 (Jan 15, 2017)

Use both in your snowblower, it will be fine, then use the TC-W3. The purpose of the TC-W3 is to reduce carbon buildup, not better lubrication so don't be scared of engine blow up. You can run the non TC-W3 in your lawn mower, motorcycle, not a car with a OBD1 computer.


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## SayItAintSnow (Dec 15, 2017)

Aldfam,

I can understand you're being cautious about this, but let's look at this logically.
*First of all, all the advice you have received in this thread should work fine for you.*

In addition, I'm suggesting that if you wanted to dispense with the two gallons of mix by adding it to your car's gas tank, you could likely do so without much concern. :wink2:

Let's say you have an average size gas tank of 15 gallons....
Suppose you want to get rid of the gas over the next two fill ups. So you pour one gallon of this mix into your car's tank, right at the pump, when it's just about empty, and fill the tank the rest of the way at the pump.

What is the result? :nerd:

Assuming you used the standard 3.2 oz of oil per gallon for a 40:1 mix that means you'd have approximately 3.2 oz mixed into 15 gallons of gas. That's a 600 to 1 ratio, or looking at it another way, way less than 1% (approx.0.16%) of the fuel is oil....synthetic oil at that.

I really find it hard to believe that that would cause any harm to your car. It's certainly not going to clog your injectors nor foul your O2 sensors or anything like that. It's just too small a quantity, if you did it that way.

Just consider this: If you've had the car for a few years, just imagine how much crap is floating around at the bottom of the tank that occasionally gets drawn into the fuel stream, and doesn't cause you any problems. It's unlikely that this minuscule percentage of syn oil is going to even be noticed by your engine.

BTW, I notice that you are using 40:1 instead of the 50:1 ratio recommended for those machines. I do the same thing with my R-tek based machines, except I only use dino oil now for all my 2 cycle equipment since I had a bad batch of syn oil that ruined two pieces of equipment before I knew what was going on. With dino oil you can "see" the viscosity. Much of the synthetic 2 cycle oil that I have seen, is practically the consistency of water, so you have no idea whether the formulation is correct. After that experience, I'm sure you can understand why I just can't trust it. :smiley-confused013:

.
.


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## crazzywolfie (Jun 2, 2014)

i would agree with sayitaintsnow. the amount of oil is so little compared to how big your gas tank is your vehicle likely wouldn't know any difference. i have done it many times with my vehicle to help lubricate a weak fuel pump. no obvious issue so far. i have also used 2 stroke gas in 4 stroke snowblowers or lawn mowers with no issues. got to use the gas up at the end of the season anyways if you didn't use it all in your machine.


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

As long as its diluted enough or the engine is used enough you shouldn't have any problems using it in your lawnmower or car. You might get a little bit of carbon build-up, but by the next tank full you will have burned off the little bit of carbon, plus it helps with top-end lubrication a bit and most cars won't notice it or cause any problems with the catalytic converter because it will burn off and out of it with a tank of regular gas.
Your new 2cycle oils have a very low "Ash" content now days and burn cleaner even though the oil does not actually burn before it gets out the exhaust muffler, and it lubricates better than the older oils and much better than regular motor oil pre/mix.


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## 2.137269 (Nov 15, 2019)

old days we simply mixed in old non detergent type 30w oil, we ever had issues, today! oil and motor companies try to keep down carbon and keep CAILF's carb happy. if your uneasy with what the others have told you, which i as a retired auto master tech agree with, keep that worry can till spring and burn it in your 4 stroke lawn mower as all it will do is lube the top end a bit yet not hurt the machine it won't even smoke a tiny bit. 
also take note on most bottles of 2 stroke oil you will see stabilizer included on that little bottle's label


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## melson (Feb 9, 2015)

Let's not forget that all auto engines are constantly burning minute quantities of oil thanks to the closed PVC system. So, oil in the fuel charge is nothing new. 
However, as the ratio of oil-to-fuel increases the flame front will tend to destabilize and the potential for pre ignition. IDK at what percentage this becomes a concern. And, also, your personal driving habits directly influences things like pre ignition.
If your car is port injected you won't have to worry about carbonized intake valves, but, if it were me, I would do what 87powershiftx2 suggested: Put in into some other small engine such as the lawn mower.


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## aldfam4 (Dec 25, 2016)

SayItAintSnow said:


> Aldfam,
> 
> I can understand you're being cautious about this, but let's look at this logically.
> *First of all, all the advice you have received in this thread should work fine for you.*
> ...


Thanks SayItAintSnow for your detailed response. I was thinking about doing what you suggested only doing the fill ups adding a quart of the premium fuel mixture to my 13 gallon tank. I got the Toro CCR 3650 from a friend and the connecting rod and piston were ruined from owner using I believe straight gas. Anyway, I replace the short block and got it going and I want to make sure I take good care of it. Once again thanks for your reply and love your avatar. A Christmas Story is one of favorite movies this time of year. Darren McGavin, Old man Parker reminded me of my Dad heading down to the basement to do battle with the furnace. So many similarities to my childhood!!


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## Tony P. (Jan 9, 2017)

NMMA stands for National Marine Manufacturers Association. NMMA created the TC-W3 standard for marine engines. Most marine engines have specific oil requirements because they are water cooled versus air cooled. Many non-marine small engine manufacturers recommend against using TC-W3 including Stihl, Husqvarna, and Toro for equipment other than snow throwers.

Although some TC-W3 labels say the oil can be used in mon-marine engines, I don't do it. Given that oil designed for 2-stroke non-marine engines is readily available, I can't see why anyone would use TC-W3 as a general rule.

Having said that, old TORO 2-stroke model manuals including the 2000 and 3650 suggest using TC-W3 so they may have a special need. They're obviously correct although I don't know why. So, I'd say use the TC-W3 in your Toro 2000 and 3650 but nothing else - including other Toro 2-stroke engines.

Use the non-marine mixture in other 2-stroke engines like chainsaws, weed trimmers, and blowers.

BTW, you may some day have a collector's item. 2-stroke snow throwers haven't been around for several years.


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## badbmwbrad (Jul 30, 2019)

If your 2-stroke engine requires a fuelil mixture ratio of 50:1 then substituting a 40:1 ratio results in a lean fuel burning condition because there is less fuel in the mixture passing through the carburetor. 

A lean fuel burning condition causes the engine to run hotter which will accelerate the wear rate on engine components such as piston rings and cylinder walls. This is not intuitively obvious because one would think that greater oil equates to less wear, however, in a 2-stroke engine the opposite will be true. 

Since 50:1 is a fairly high ratio then I would be using a high quality synthetic 2-stroke oil designed for air-cooled engines. Look for 2-stroke oil which meets JASO FC test standards.


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## Brent Holm (Oct 22, 2019)

badbmwbrad said:


> If your 2-stroke engine requires a fuelil mixture ratio of 50:1 then substituting a 40:1 ratio results in a lean fuel burning condition because there is less fuel in the mixture passing through the carburetor.
> 
> A lean fuel burning condition causes the engine to run hotter which will accelerate the wear rate on engine components such as piston rings and cylinder walls. This is not intuitively obvious because one would think that greater oil equates to less wear, however, in a 2-stroke engine the opposite will be true.
> 
> Since 50:1 is a fairly high ratio then I would be using a high quality synthetic 2-stroke oil designed for air-cooled engines. Look for 2-stroke oil which meets JASO FC test standards.


Pretty sure this is just plain wrong, way overthought. I am a massive snowmobile enthusiast, I have owned a dozen high end two stroke machines designed to run in the winter. Tests show that there is NO adverse effect on engine performance until you increase the oil mixture to about 18:1. No power difference in ratios between 50:1 and 20:1, the ratio varies all the time depending on the ride. More WOT burns more oil, easy rides burn less oil. My machine varies its oil intake rate from about 32:1 to 50:1 depending on load. I assure you it is not running lean when using more oil or the machines wouldn't last. In fact the newer machines more heavily regulated by the EPA use less oil and lose motors more quickly. The new Ski Doo emissions 2 strokes are good for about 2500 mtn miles, previous versions less regulated are good for double that. Polaris no longer runs oil fuel mix through the crankcase, those motors are good for even less, 1500-2000, the one I had died after 110 hrs of use. I run the last of the non emissions motors from Arctic Cat, should be good for 4-6000 miles, because it uses a lot of two stroke oil, not because it was tightly regulated to 40:1. 

As for the already mixed gas, run it in whatever, wont hurt a thing. You would have to run 32:1 in your car for months to see an adverse effect, and I would just run any two stroke oil in a little snowblower, at any ratio between 50:1 and 32:1 and not worry for second. The tolerances and loads on those machines are not such that this level of concern is warranted.


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## JLawrence08648 (Jan 15, 2017)

I'm a believer that synthetic 2 cycle oil though thinner looking, lubricates better so thinner does not matter; all 4 cycle lawn equipment should have oil added to the gas in the ratio of 100:1 for upper cylinder lubrication unless it's already burning some oil then the upper cylinder is getting oil; I'm concerned that with the car computers adjusting things, adding oil to the gas screws things up, BUT if you have a car with a computer that is burning a little oil, and most do between oil changes, the computer is already making engine adjustments, there is already oil in the gas so what is the difference now adding some 2 cycle mix to the gas? I don't want to commit with an outright approval and do damage.


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## mikey517 (Feb 20, 2014)

I have never used a TC-W3 oil in a mix. Just what I learned from guys on chainsaw and 2 cycle forms. I know its open to debate, but I opted to use a quality 89 or above octane gas, semi-synthetic 2 cycle oil like Husqvarna XP+, Echo, or Poulan Pro. I mix at 40:1. I adjust carbs accordingly, and have never had a problem in any of my 4 saws 2 blowers and trimmers (Husky & Stihl). 

That being said, when the mix is "old", dump it into the splitter, mowers, or my truck and have not had a problem and don't think you would either.


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## Tony P. (Jan 9, 2017)

Some of my 2-stroke equipment requires 40:1 while others suggest 50:1. I can't be bothered with two separate mixtures so I split it somewhere down the middle and haven't had an issue in decades. Besides, I doubt anyone gets the mixture correct anyway unless you buy already mixed. After all, who mixes 3.2 ounces for 40:1 or 2.56 ounces for 50:1 with precision. And who really makes certain they have exactly a gallon?

This is one of those topics where folks spend hours thinking about it and seconds doing it. At least I hope so.


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## Oneacer (Jan 3, 2011)

Actually, it is quite easy. Most oil for these come in pre-measured containers, for the 2.5 gallon cans, or the spout with the measured squeeze funnel, …. I doubt many people fill a weed whacker or backpack blower or whatever from a 5 gallon mixed gas can. Really not ergonomic. 

When I spend big money like my Husqvarna saw or my new Echo backpack, yeah, I want to use what the manufacture recommends. 

JMHO


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## Brent Holm (Oct 22, 2019)

I am not sure a chainsaw or blower constitutes big money but I also use what is recommended. I run Husky oil in the Husky saw, I run Arctic Cat oil in the Arctic Cat, despite it running nearly $50/gal. I do think that splitting hairs on the mix is a complete waste of time though. I have a gas can for the saw, I have a gas can for the blower, sled is oil injected so filled at the gas station with fresh each ride. Seldom used leaf blower just sips from the saw container. I definitely think people way overthink this regularly...


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## Oneacer (Jan 3, 2011)

To me, 500.00 is big money …. last name is not Gates …  just sayin


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## Toro-8-2-4 (Dec 28, 2013)

For 2 cycles I either buy the premixed on sale or I mix it with Av gas and synthetic 2 cycle oil. Nothing I come across or own has required the marine grade 2 cycle oil. Interesting to learn non marine some Toros spec it out.


I have read on a 2 cycle board that if you use synthetic oil you mixing ratio can be off a bit and it will not matter. I assume you adjust the carb so it is not too rich or lean.


At Walmart they sell a premix fuel that says it is good for both 50 and 40:1 ratio's. Does anyone know how they pull that off? Mix it at 45:1 and say close enough?


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## E350 (Apr 21, 2015)

The lean mixture by too much oil was beat to death and IMHO debunked on pwctoday.com. If I find the thread, I will cite to it.

We have five standup jet skis, 2-stroke vintage 1988-1995. And chainsaws, leaf blower, brush clearer. We love 2-strokes. We use Klotz 2-stroke oil's different variants in all of them.

https://klotzlube.com/shop?keywords=2-stroke&olsPage=search&page=2

You will better oil the crank bearings with a little more oil to fuel ratio. But at the expense of top end rpm. Same thing happens when you use a higher octane than recommended -- sacrifices top end rpm.


Not me, but local, somewhat South of us. Here's a little Summertime fun with a 1994-1995 Kawasaki 550sx:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=13&v=srdoWt6_3fw&feature=emb_logo


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## amuller (Jan 3, 2016)

You initial question is unclear as to what you mixed the first batch with. So just responding in general: TC-W* oil is evaluated for use in water cooled outboard motors and similar. It's not evaluated for use in air cooled engines that may reach higher cylinder temperatures. There are different oils evaluated under different protocols for those.


That said, lots of people use the TC-W oils in air cooled engines without apparent problems. Given that this is a snowblower application in cold weather, and that you are mixing it richer than called for, I think you will not likely run into any problems. I would not sweat it.


This is one of those subjects where discussion never ends. I will only add that there are vendors claiming to have magic oils that can run in any engine at 100-1, etc. I don't buy this at all.


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## notabiker (Dec 14, 2018)

Brent Holm said:


> Pretty sure this is just plain wrong, way overthought. I am a massive snowmobile enthusiast, I have owned a dozen high end two stroke machines designed to run in the winter. Tests show that there is NO adverse effect on engine performance until you increase the oil mixture to about 18:1. No power difference in ratios between 50:1 and 20:1, the ratio varies all the time depending on the ride. More WOT burns more oil, easy rides burn less oil. My machine varies its oil intake rate from about 32:1 to 50:1 depending on load. I assure you it is not running lean when using more oil or the machines wouldn't last. In fact the newer machines more heavily regulated by the EPA use less oil and lose motors more quickly. The new Ski Doo emissions 2 strokes are good for about 2500 mtn miles, previous versions less regulated are good for double that. Polaris no longer runs oil fuel mix through the crankcase, those motors are good for even less, 1500-2000, the one I had died after 110 hrs of use. I run the last of the non emissions motors from Arctic Cat, should be good for 4-6000 miles, because it uses a lot of two stroke oil, not because it was tightly regulated to 40:1.
> 
> As for the already mixed gas, run it in whatever, wont hurt a thing. You would have to run 32:1 in your car for months to see an adverse effect, and I would just run any two stroke oil in a little snowblower, at any ratio between 50:1 and 32:1 and not worry for second. The tolerances and loads on those machines are not such that this level of concern is warranted.



Dang, I have a 2009 600 etec skidoo and I wonder what kind of mileage I'll get out of it. Already have about 2500 mountain miles on it from when I lived in Ak.. Probably wouldn't be a bad thing to mix a little oil in the gas tank on the new ones I suppose.. Though fouling a plug on my era of skidoo will be a huge pain to change out on the trail/mountain!


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

badbmwbrad said:


> If your 2-stroke engine requires a fuelil mixture ratio of 50:1 then substituting a 40:1 ratio results in a lean fuel burning condition because there is less fuel in the mixture passing through the carburetor.
> 
> A lean fuel burning condition causes the engine to run hotter which will accelerate the wear rate on engine components such as piston rings and cylinder walls. This is not intuitively obvious because one would think that greater oil equates to less wear, however, in a 2-stroke engine the opposite will be true.
> 
> Since 50:1 is a fairly high ratio then I would be using a high quality synthetic 2-stroke oil designed for air-cooled engines. Look for 2-stroke oil which meets JASO FC test standards.


It is a well known fact that 50:1 ratio is richer in gas than 40:1 ratio. 20:1 ratio is very lean on gas because of the extra oil in the fuel when it passes through the fuel jet.
You are one of the few people who understands that, most inexperienced people do not understand that and think just the opposite. 20:1 is rich in oil but very lean in gas, 50:1 is rich in gas but lean in oil.
The oil does not actually burn, it ends up going out the exhaust after it runs through and lubricates the engine, and into the air and settles on anything nearby, the ground.
Marine 2 stroke oil is much different that air cooled oil for one thing, a marine engine runs much cooler and is not anywhere near as hard on the oil as a 2 stroke motorcycle or hand held power equipment, but most people do not realize that the oil exhausts into the water and a petroleum based oil will leave a "Rainbow" effect in the water and it will not break down in the water. It is like dumping regular oil in water. A lot of marine based 2 stroke oils are like a Vegetable oil or a plant based oil that will break down in water much easier than petroleum based oils and the marine type 2 stroke oils will not stand up to the heat and harsh running conditions of an air cooled engine like on a motorcycle and most hand held power equipment.
That is another reason that most all outboard and jet-ski engines are 4 stroke now, plus the fact that many people used the wrong oil in a 2 stroke boat engine and polluted the water-ways with it, and if they got caught, they got a big fine for using it in their boats.
Do not use marine type oils in anything other than marine products that have a very cool running engine with light loads on it unless you want to destroy an engine in a big hurry.
Most snow-mobile engines are 4 stroke engines now, especially the higher performance models.


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## all3939 (Dec 21, 2014)

I've been using Opti2 two stoke oil for the last 15 years in all my 2 stroke motors, that's one mix across all ratios of 100:1. All I can say never a problem with even one piece of equipment. Came across that stuff by some backyard OPE repair shop that has been in business many years with great feedback and he swore by the stuff. So in my garage it's one can of 2 cycle gas mix instead of several cans with every possible ratio.


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

I've been using the Opti-2 oil with excellent results. It is made by a company that was well known for their 2 stroke performance oils back in the 70's. Inter-Lube
I usually run mine around 70:1 ratio and never had any problems. Most engines are set to run too lean on fuel because of EPA regulations, so at 70:1 you are making up for the lean mixture and getting more gas into the mix. A lot of carburetors are non adjustable now so it helps, and the oil is very highly concentrated so it doesn't do any harm by not having enough lubricant value in the fuel mixture, plus it burns very clean with very low smoke and carbon deposit build-up in the combustion chamber and muffler.


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## Shovel (Mar 26, 2019)

Brent Holm said:


> Pretty sure this is just plain wrong, way overthought. I am a massive snowmobile enthusiast, I have owned a dozen high end two stroke machines designed to run in the winter. Tests show that there is NO adverse effect on engine performance until you increase the oil mixture to about 18:1. No power difference in ratios between 50:1 and 20:1, the ratio varies all the time depending on the ride. More WOT burns more oil, easy rides burn less oil. My machine varies its oil intake rate from about 32:1 to 50:1 depending on load. I assure you it is not running lean when using more oil or the machines wouldn't last. In fact the newer machines more heavily regulated by the EPA use less oil and lose motors more quickly. The new Ski Doo emissions 2 strokes are good for about 2500 mtn miles, previous versions less regulated are good for double that. Polaris no longer runs oil fuel mix through the crankcase, those motors are good for even less, 1500-2000, the one I had died after 110 hrs of use. I run the last of the non emissions motors from Arctic Cat, should be good for 4-6000 miles, because it uses a lot of two stroke oil, not because it was tightly regulated to 40:1.
> 
> As for the already mixed gas, run it in whatever, wont hurt a thing. You would have to run 32:1 in your car for months to see an adverse effect, and I would just run any two stroke oil in a little snowblower, at any ratio between 50:1 and 32:1 and not worry for second. The tolerances and loads on those machines are not such that this level of concern is warranted.


With oil injection it doesnt make a difference(as above)..but with mixed oil and fuel it changes the viscosity of the fuel which makes it harder to pull through the jets.
Also low loads do not burn the oil as readily ..which further leans the AF ratio as well...it still may not be a problem though unless already favoring the lean side..which a constant speed engine usually is.
But in this case of 40 to 1 vs 50 to 1..it's not going to matter


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## Brent Holm (Oct 22, 2019)

notabiker said:


> Dang, I have a 2009 600 etec skidoo and I wonder what kind of mileage I'll get out of it. Already have about 2500 mountain miles on it from when I lived in Ak.. Probably wouldn't be a bad thing to mix a little oil in the gas tank on the new ones I suppose.. Though fouling a plug on my era of skidoo will be a huge pain to change out on the trail/mountain!


I think the 600 and 800 etecs are pretty bomber engines. I have a buddy with 4600 miles on his 800 etec Freeride, that started life as a demo sled. If you want to ride it a bunch, probably time for a top end. Just to ride it some, I would leave it and expect quite a few more miles. The new 850's from both Polaris and Doo are time bombs, the Polaris more so. The first round of 800 ctecs from Cat may be suspect, the engine is already updated for 2020.


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## Brent Holm (Oct 22, 2019)

Shovel said:


> With oil injection it doesnt make a difference(as above)..but with mixed oil and fuel it changes the viscosity of the fuel which makes it harder to pull through the jets.


Seriously? Where did you read that? 2 stroke oil pours like water, mixed 40:1 with gas and you think it thickens it enough to make it "harder to pull through the jets". I would love to see the bench test for that! This is the epitome of splitting hairs, no way it matters one bit, simply no way.



> Also low loads do not burn the oil as readily ..which further leans the AF ratio as well...it still may not be a problem though unless already favoring the lean side..which a constant speed engine usually is.
> But in this case of 40 to 1 vs 50 to 1..it's not going to matter


The oil is MIXED with the gas, It burns at the same ratio... It does not cause a lean condition. Honestly, where are you getting this?


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## Shovel (Mar 26, 2019)

Brent Holm said:


> Seriously? Where did you read that? 2 stroke oil pours like water, mixed 40:1 with gas and you think it thickens it enough to make it "harder to pull through the jets". I would love to see the bench test for that! This is the epitome of splitting hairs, no way it matters one bit, simply no way.
> 
> 
> 
> The oil is MIXED with the gas, It burns at the same ratio... It does not cause a lean condition. Honestly, where are you getting this?


The oil has a higher viscosity than gasoline therefore increases the viscosity of the gasoline which does make it harder to pull through the jets.
There is no escaping that.

And yes the oil is mixed with the gas is what causes this...it's two fold..it increases the viscosity of the gas.
It also changes the properties of the gasoline itself..there is no escaping this.



Sent from my LM-Q710.FG using Tapatalk


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

Shovel said:


> The oil has a higher viscosity than gasoline therefore increases the viscosity of the gasoline which does make it harder to pull through the jets.
> There is no escaping that.
> 
> And yes the oil is mixed with the gas is what causes this...it's two fold..it increases the viscosity of the gas.
> ...


Shovel, 
You are correct about the viscosity being much higher, that is why 2 strokes use larger fuel jets than a 4 stroke does because of the oil taking space of the gasoline going through the jet.
Also, the oil does not burn the same as gasoline burns, the oil burns very little in the combustion chamber, if at all before it is exhausted. The oil burns much slower than the rapid combustion of the gasoline when it ignites to push the piston down in the cylinder due to expanding gasses caused by the heat of the burning gasoline.
The oil separates from the gas mixture by centrifugal force or if it is injected to the crank bearings for lubrication, the excess is then mixed and sent up through the transfer ports and into the combustion chamber and then out through the exhaust, usually coating the muffler, ports and spark arrestor screen with build-up, and what-ever boils off, goes out into the atmosphere or water in a boats case.
If 2 stroke oil burned the same as gasoline, you wouldn't have to mix it with gas, you would just run it straight in the fuel tank with no gasoline at all.


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## all3939 (Dec 21, 2014)

ST1100A said:


> Shovel,
> 
> The oil separates from the gas mixture by centrifugal force or if it is injected to the crank bearings for lubrication,


Can you explain how this is centrifugal force. The way I understand it is the combustible mixture is confined up in the space above the piston and when ignited by the spark explodes sending the piston down. The oil that doesn't burn off remains as lubrication on the cylinder walls.


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

Centrifugal force in the crankcase spinning around the spinning crankshaft causes the oil to separate from the gas. The whole mixture is what actually "Wets" or lubes everything as it comes in contact with it down in the bottom end of the engine and lower cylinder walls. The mixture then contacts the surfaces in the top end combustion chamber and does the same thing.
A lot of your 2 strokes are using the Chrome or Nikasil bores now and that acts as a lubricant a bit itself because it is a slippery surface that doesn't require as much lubricant as the older aluminum and steel bores did.
When the 2 stroke engine draws the fuel oil mixture into the crankcase before it is sent up to the combustion chamber is where a lot of the separation takes place.
Very little of the oil actually burns during combustion process, the residue is what does the actual lubrication in the top end of the engine.
That is also one of the reasons that most 2 stroke engines have ball or roller bearings on the crankshafts and connecting rods, and not plain bearings like a 4 stroke engine has.


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## Shovel (Mar 26, 2019)

ST1100A said:


> Shovel,
> You are correct about the viscosity being much higher, that is why 2 strokes use larger fuel jets than a 4 stroke does because of the oil taking space of the gasoline going through the jet.
> Also, the oil does not burn the same as gasoline burns, the oil burns very little in the combustion chamber, if at all before it is exhausted. The oil burns much slower than the rapid combustion of the gasoline when it ignites to push the piston down in the cylinder due to expanding gasses caused by the heat of the burning gasoline.
> The oil separates from the gas mixture by centrifugal force or if it is injected to the crank bearings for lubrication, the excess is then mixed and sent up through the transfer ports and into the combustion chamber and then out through the exhaust, usually coating the muffler, ports and spark arrestor screen with build-up, and what-ever boils off, goes out into the atmosphere or water in a boats case.
> If 2 stroke oil burned the same as gasoline, you wouldn't have to mix it with gas, you would just run it straight in the fuel tank with no gasoline at all.


Exactly...higher viscosity is harder to pull through the jets.
Also since that oil is not gas itself it further leans the mixture itself..granted some of the oil will vapor and burn as fuel will..but it is still only a (partial.)
I have see runnability problems when people have mixed to heavy.
A two stroke that is lean will often idle high after throttling down... it will settle after time however due to excessive oil in the combustion chamber.
Full throttle can go lean as well..lean over revving can be prevented by the excessive oil kind of balancing out the wrong..but you can confirm it with a needle adjustment.
Just the fact that an adjustment is needed with the oil mix has changed is enough to show the AF has been changed due to the oil increasing the viscosity of the fuel which slows it's movement through the passages.
As far as the original post and the 40 to 1 and fifty to one situation he has..the effects will be marginal but still exist




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## Brent Holm (Oct 22, 2019)

You guys are a hoot with your theories. I burn gallons of 2 stroke oil every year. It burns, burns pretty clean when hot, less so when cold evidenced by the smoke and smell. The rest of that was a huge load of hooey... Centrifugal force separating the oil from the gas???? Come on now. Believe what you will folks but you have just witnessed grown men reaching so hard, it had to hurt.


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## Shovel (Mar 26, 2019)

Brent Holm said:


> You guys are a hoot with your theories. I burn gallons of 2 stroke oil every year. It burns, burns pretty clean when hot, less so when cold evidenced by the smoke and smell. The rest of that was a huge load of hooey... Centrifugal force separating the oil from the gas???? Come on now. Believe what you will folks but you have just witnessed grown men reaching so hard, it had to hurt.


You stated you use a snowmobile with an oil injection pump which varied the ratio(which it does)..however that oil doesn't pass through the carb so therefore doesn't cause a viscosity change of the gas going through the carb.
As far as two stroke oil burning clean that is subjective within itself I have see dripping tail pipes shelf..fouled plugs and carbon build up.
There is a reason why they use the least amount of oil as possible and yet offer enough protection to get the job done.
Also how hard you run the machine also determines how much protection you need 
Take a full race bike on the track it will need more oil in the fuel vs taking that same bike and loafing around the backyard with it.
As fa as centrifugal force and separation....yes ..the oil separates out.
Fuel turns into a vapor.. oil not so much .
Now your snowmobile doesn't even mix the oil and gas ...but rather injects the oil..which gets tossed around by those forces...if not it would just go to the bottom and do you no good.
It is injected into the airstream...hits the crank and rod and is slung by force...fine droplets are picked up in the process which gets pushed up to the combustion chamber on the next downstroke. 



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## 2.137269 (Nov 15, 2019)

man has this one gone wild, if any of you are old enough to remember these, yes it's oil injected but has never in 50.000 miles had anything other than 30W oil in the injector tank and it's motor was built by long gone denco performance who at the time was well known for tuning 2 strokes,


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## badbmwbrad (Jul 30, 2019)

*Fluid Dynamics 101*

Air is a fluid (it has mass). When *turbulent, flowing air changes direction, fuel vapor and oil droplets entrained in the air stream must also change their direction. 

Smaller mass fuel vapor in turbulent air is more easily able to change its direction because it has less momentum. Larger mass oil droplets are less able to change their direction due to their greater momentum. 

As a result, the oil droplets in a fuel/oil mix will collide against and wet an engine's internal surfaces including the crankcase internals, cylinder/piston, combustion chamber, exhaust pipe and beyond. 

*Relating to or denoting flow of a fluid in which the velocity at any point fluctuates irregularly and there is continual mixing rather than a steady or laminar flow pattern.


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## Brent Holm (Oct 22, 2019)

Shovel said:


> You stated you use a snowmobile with an oil injection pump which varied the ratio(which it does)..however that oil doesn't pass through the carb so therefore doesn't cause a viscosity change of the gas going through the carb.
> As far as two stroke oil burning clean that is subjective within itself I have see dripping tail pipes shelf..fouled plugs and carbon build up.
> There is a reason why they use the least amount of oil as possible and yet offer enough protection to get the job done.
> Also how hard you run the machine also determines how much protection you need
> ...


There, fixed it for you... By your description my sled trailer should be an oily mess. The muffler is vertical, exiting straight down. I have never had a sled that dripped oil from the exhaust because it all burns... I go through a quart of oil on a single 30-40 mile ride, that is a lot of oil to hide in an 800cc motor. 2 stroke oil burns, it is designed to burn. NOBODY thinks it is a good idea to burn the least amount of oil possible, nobody running a highly stressed 2 stroke in a snowmobile anyway. The more oil the longer it will live, period. The first thing you do when you get your new Polaris sled home is TURN UP THE OILER because the lean oil ratios kill the engines. All of the most recently designed 2 stroke sled motors are reducing oil consumption. All of them have substantially shortened life spans because of it.


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## Nanook12 (Nov 26, 2019)

Wow! Lots of craziness in the 2 Stroke fuel world. I’m down to chainsaws and brush cutters as the only 2 strokers. I do mix TC-W3, 2 cycle oil in my diesel truck fuel. You can buy this oil at Walmart in the gallon jug. I mix it at a ratio of one ounce to a gallon diesel, this lubricates the very expensive high pressure injector pump. Our arctic grade diesel is very dry! In other words to flow at -50F there can be no waxes or impurities to gum up the works. TC-W3 oil burns very clean and is dissolved into fuel. Buy it by the gallon at Walmart an save money.


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

87powershiftx2 said:


> man has this one gone wild, if any of you are old enough to remember these, yes it's oil injected but has never in 50.000 miles had anything other than 30W oil in the injector tank and it's motor was built by long gone denco performance who at the time was well known for tuning 2 strokes,


Yes I remember those very well. The H1 and the H2, I had both the 500 and the 750 with the expansion chambers.
I remember you had to park it on a big piece of cardboard or you would stain the garage floor with oil dripping off the expansion chambers and the chain and anywhere else it dripped from.
We used to have to take the pipes off and heat them up cherry red with the acetylene torch to burn off the oil and carbon build-up in them, then they became much lighter in weight.
We had long wire brushes that were made for brushing out the insides of the pipes to clean them out, they were about 6 feet long flexible wire cable with the stainless steel wire brushes on the ends.


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

Nanook12 said:


> Wow! Lots of craziness in the 2 Stroke fuel world. I’m down to chainsaws and brush cutters as the only 2 strokers. I do mix TC-W3, 2 cycle oil in my diesel truck fuel. You can buy this oil at Walmart in the gallon jug. I mix it at a ratio of one ounce to a gallon diesel, this lubricates the very expensive high pressure injector pump. Our arctic grade diesel is very dry! In other words to flow at -50F there can be no waxes or impurities to gum up the works. TC-W3 oil burns very clean and is dissolved into fuel. Buy it by the gallon at Walmart an save money.


Yes you need that with the Low Sulfur fuel to lube the pumps now. The sulfur actually lubed the pistons in the fuel pump.
You could also try Marvel Mystery oil 1 ounce per gallon in the diesel fuel to help with lubing the pump.
Only thing if you have a particulate matter fitting on the exhaust after a while it could start clogging it with a little more carbon bits.


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## Shovel (Mar 26, 2019)

Brent Holm said:


> There, fixed it for you... By your description my sled trailer should be an oily mess. The muffler is vertical, exiting straight down. I have never had a sled that dripped oil from the exhaust because it all burns... I go through a quart of oil on a single 30-40 mile ride, that is a lot of oil to hide in an 800cc motor. 2 stroke oil burns, it is designed to burn. NOBODY thinks it is a good idea to burn the least amount of oil possible, nobody running a highly stressed 2 stroke in a snowmobile anyway. The more oil the longer it will live, period. The first thing you do when you get your new Polaris sled home is TURN UP THE OILER because the lean oil ratios kill the engines. All of the most recently designed 2 stroke sled motors are reducing oil consumption. All of them have substantially shortened life spans because of it.


That oil spits on the ground while it's running due to the exhaust pulses..if you think it all burns..wipe a paper towel in there and see what you get..
And yes they want to run the least amount of oil as possible...Excess oil fouls plugs..causes runnability problems..carbons the exhaust port.
Different machine also have different needs...an engine with an easy life doesn't require as much oil as it's not generating as much heat.
Different manufacturers of engines are running different ratios depending on the application...as each has a different requirement..rather that use as much oil as you can.
A quart of oil in 30 to 40 miles seems kinda high to me ..means you should be using about 10 gallons of fuel or more..which is three to four miles to the gallon .... something seems wrong there...what's important is it works for you though.
As far as your comment about the more oil the longer it will live...then why not just pour oil in the fuel tank and be done with it?
As I stated earlier the idea is to use as much oil as needed for the job...it's not how much oil we can pass through this machine which appears to be the avenue you are on.



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## badbmwbrad (Jul 30, 2019)

That seems like a good idea. I have a 1998 Dodge Cummins diesel pickup truck with mechanical fuel pump. The Bosch P7100 pump has six little in-line pistons. The pistons probably need some lubrication from the diesel oil to attain longest service life. The fuel pump bottom end is lubricated by engine oil. The engine cylinder fuel injectors depend upon the diesel oil for lubrication. I add 4 ounces of Marvel Mystery Oil (MMO) per 10 gallons of diesel fuel to lubricate the injectors and fuel pump pistons. 



Nanook12 said:


> I do mix TC-W3, 2 cycle oil in my diesel truck fuel. You can buy this oil at Walmart in the gallon jug. I mix it at a ratio of one ounce to a gallon diesel, this lubricates the very expensive high pressure injector pump. Our arctic grade diesel is very dry! In other words to flow at -50F there can be no waxes or impurities to gum up the works. TC-W3 oil burns very clean and is dissolved into fuel. Buy it by the gallon at Walmart an save money.


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## badbmwbrad (Jul 30, 2019)

Do you want to take a stab at explaining how an expansion chamber with no moving parts serves to supercharge a 2-stroke engine? I love how these devices function :smile2:



ST1100A said:


> Yes I remember those very well. The H1 and the H2, I had both the 500 and the 750 with the expansion chambers.
> I remember you had to park it on a big piece of cardboard or you would stain the garage floor with oil dripping off the expansion chambers and the chain and anywhere else it dripped from.
> We used to have to take the pipes off and heat them up cherry red with the acetylene torch to burn off the oil and carbon build-up in them, then they became much lighter in weight.
> We had long wire brushes that were made for brushing out the insides of the pipes to clean them out, they were about 6 feet long flexible wire cable with the stainless steel wire brushes on the ends.


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## tabora (Mar 1, 2017)

badbmwbrad said:


> Do you want to take a stab at explaining how an expansion chamber with no moving parts serves to supercharge a 2-stroke engine? I love how these devices function :smile2:


 It's all about the positive waves, man... And especially the return wave.


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## badbmwbrad (Jul 30, 2019)

Thanks for the explanation. I found this animation also.

Has anyone ever installed an expansion chamber on a 2-stroke engine snowblower?


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## Brent Holm (Oct 22, 2019)

Shovel said:


> That oil spits on the ground while it's running due to the exhaust pulses..if you think it all burns..wipe a paper towel in there and see what you get..
> And yes they want to run the least amount of oil as possible...Excess oil fouls plugs..causes runnability problems..carbons the exhaust port.
> Different machine also have different needs...an engine with an easy life doesn't require as much oil as it's not generating as much heat.
> Different manufacturers of engines are running different ratios depending on the application...as each has a different requirement..rather that use as much oil as you can.
> ...



I can pull the pipe, in fact I did the other day to replace the plugs, and it is dry as a bone in there, some soot but not wet drippy and filthy by any stretch. I run the sled to warm up on the trailer, I have never had one even leave a spot much less spit oil.

I have already stated that I have seen the actual dyno tests to confirm that there is zero performance loss until ratios exceed 18:1, more than double the oil recommended for most 2 strokes. They are trying to run less to meet emissions. This denial you are in over two strokes loving oil is interesting. The more the better until performance suffers. Turns out 32 or 40 to 1 is plenty so no need to go with more, even though you could.

I burn about 8-9 gallons of gas and a quart of oil to make a 40 mile day, half road riding, half off trail. 

I am very happy with the stock settings on my machine. If it showed up like my last Polaris running 50:1 I DID just dump oil in the gas to make up the difference, very common practice actually. Others adjust the oil pump to increase the oil because it is no secret, they last longer on more oil. Since I have stated at what ratio I think it becomes detrimental I hope you spare me further "why not just drown it in oil" type of replies. I always mix my saw gas a little heavy on oil too, good for it! Been on this avenue for over 30 years now, probably stick with it...


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## Shovel (Mar 26, 2019)

Brent Holm said:


> I can pull the pipe, in fact I did the other day to replace the plugs, and it is dry as a bone in there, some soot but not wet drippy and filthy by any stretch. I run the sled to warm up on the trailer, I have never had one even leave a spot much less spit oil.
> 
> I have already stated that I have seen the actual dyno tests to confirm that there is zero performance loss until ratios exceed 18:1, more than double the oil recommended for most 2 strokes. They are trying to run less to meet emissions. This denial you are in over two strokes loving oil is interesting. The more the better until performance suffers. Turns out 32 or 40 to 1 is plenty so no need to go with more, even though you could.
> 
> ...


Earlier you stated...the more two stroke oil the longer is will live period.
Then you claim no performance loss occurs until 18 to 1...so why aren't you running 18 to 1?
Why aren't dirt bike racers mixing 18 to 1 ..why are they pushing the 40 mark?
Because there is a difference in performance according to the dynos they use.
Those racers are not trying to beat emissions..they are trying to win a race.
As far as your reference of 50 to 1..it's actually pretty common..Stihl has done it for many years..a saw has a pretty rough life and it has been working for the guys using the saws day in and day out for a living.
There is oil out there that is 100 to 1..I used it.. probably closer at 90 to1 though..no harm to the saw.
What oil are you using in the polaris that is causing damage with the stock setting of fifty to one?
It actually varies that ratio depending upon throttle position.
I think the oil is more of the concern unless really running pretty hard for long distanc... the injection pump should be adequate for the engines needs



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## Snowbelt_subie (Dec 20, 2016)

Lol people get crazy with oil. It doesnt matter if its cars, motorcycles, equipment 2 cycle 4 cycle.

Here is something to live buy. If it's somewhat close to the viscosity and amount needed it doesnt matter one bit. 18:1 to 60:1 for a 2 cycle will be fine. 

I ran 10w30 in my f150 for 15 years and 5w 20 was reccomended.


Keep oil in your engine most of the failures I see are running straight gas in 2 cycle equipment. Or low or no oil in 4 cycle engines .The last guy had a husky blower said he used it 10 times before it melted a piston with straight gas. 

So guys please stop stressing over oil just put some in and your good.

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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

badbmwbrad said:


> Do you want to take a stab at explaining how an expansion chamber with no moving parts serves to supercharge a 2-stroke engine? I love how these devices function :smile2:


Hi BadBrad, you have to thank Tabora for the video he sent in. I just got back and saw it. 
You don't see many video info's about how an expansion chamber works and most people never knew about them or how they worked, they just knew of the loud exhaust noises from them.
I remember back in the early 70's building and experimenting custom exhaust pipes for karts and bikes. Things were very crude back in those days and most people would actually build their own chambers, it took some custom fabrication work.
They do not actually 'supercharge' thinking of forced induction, they help to "Scavage" the exhaust out and "Time" it just right as the video Tabora sent in. 
It actually helps to suck out the exhaust and uses a Sonic Wave or shock wave reverting back towards the engine to push some of the air/fuel mixture back into the cylinder after it helped to suck it all up through the transfer ports and fill the cylinder cavity, it pushed back the excess air/fuel so it did slightly help pressurize the cylinder, almost acting like a "Ram Air" effect and blocking it suddenly before the piston would close the exhaust port.
When it "Scavage"s, it sucks out exhaust and sucks in fresh air fuel at the same time, kind of like on a 4 stroke engine with "Valve Overlap". Intake and exhaust open at the same time, doing the same thing, and it happens very quickly.
The expansion chambers were a "Trick thing" back in the early and mid 70s before a lot of the new high tech tecnology was out and a lot of it was "Trade Secrets" back then when they first came out. An "Old School" high performance trick. A lot of motocross bikes and 2 strike street bikes used them back then for racing purposes.
That was before the "Computer Days".
I hope it helps explain some of what they are and how they work, and thank the guys who posted the video's about them. If you grew up around a lot of them, you are probably starting to experience some hearing loss by now because of the noise, how loud some of them were.


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

badbmwbrad said:


> Thanks for the explanation. I found this animation also.
> 
> Has anyone ever installed an expansion chamber on a 2-stroke engine snowblower?
> 
> https://youtu.be/HbqS3fz8EDA


 I have seen them on a lot of chainsaws, most of them were used for competition use though.
I would imagine some guys put them on a snowblower already, to build a "Hot Rod" snowblower, probably to **** off the neighbors with the noise it would make.
I don't think it would be too practical on a snowblower though, because to get one to fit and the extra work involved with the custom cylinder porting and carburetor modifications, then probably a custom piston and rings. The fuel 'mileage" would probably be pretty low, you would be using up a lot of fuel very fast, and you would probably wear out the engine a lot faster than normal, although it would probably throw the snow a bit further from revving higher and you would probably get the job done quicker as long as you didn't blow it up.
Is that an old Honda CT90 on your title? I just restored a 1964 the other year for a guy.


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## 2.137269 (Nov 15, 2019)

haven't stuck a chamber on a snow blower but did stick a pair of big cc sb engines on a race go kart running model airplane nitro that had chambers custom made, talk about a night time flame show!! ,my snow mobile's are a pair of 1998 polaris 700 xcr's 679 cc water cooled triples . care to hang on one at over 125 mph? 

today's day in age is all about emissions that makes 50 to 1 the normal in most cases yet there is still a few machines that have owners manuals that read 40 poulan pro or 32 in some echo's .will one seize a 40 motor running 50 not likely with a good oil ,watch your mix, keep it fresh, stop listening to interweb bull stink 

a ? i have is, are the many DIYS'ers in here, are you ready for FI on everything? KTM has direct injected 2 stroke motors for some bikes,how long before it dribbles down to off road machinery?


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## badbmwbrad (Jul 30, 2019)

*Honda Trail Bikes (off topic)*

My _Swiss Army Bike_ is a scarlet red 1971 Honda Trail 90 model number CT90K3. It has a period-correct, color-matched milk crate mounted to its substantial luggage rack :smile2: 

Do you think Honda will go into production with the CT125 _Trail Cub _concept bike? 

https://www.motorcyclistonline.com/honda-ct125/




ST1100A said:


> Is that an old Honda CT90 on your title? I just restored a 1964 the other year for a guy.


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## badbmwbrad (Jul 30, 2019)

I adhere to the KISS principle and will avoid electronic fuel injection (EFI) where possible; instead favoring elegant solutions that solve the problem in the simplest and most effective manner. 



87powershiftx2 said:


> A ? i have is, are the many DIYS'ers in here, are you ready for FI on everything? KTM has direct injected 2 stroke motors for some bikes,how long before it dribbles down to off road machinery?


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## Brent Holm (Oct 22, 2019)

Shovel said:


> Earlier you stated...the more two stroke oil the longer is will live period.
> Then you claim no performance loss occurs until 18 to 1...so why aren't you running 18 to 1?
> Why aren't dirt bike racers mixing 18 to 1 ..why are they pushing the 40 mark?
> Because there is a difference in performance according to the dynos they use.
> Those racers are not trying to beat emissions..they are trying to win a race.


OMG, is this you purposely trying to be obtuse or are you really this dumb? Had you read my post, I stated the why not just run it drowning in oil... I like my machine to average between 25 and 40:1, which it does. Running more is just a waste of oil and at $50/gal for injector oil it does become a concern. 

You also seem completely ignorant to the fact that the EPA is regulating off road toys, chainsaws, weed wackers and everything else out there. Go buy a new saw and adjust the carb... Adjustments come plugged, govt regs say so. So they may be trying to win a race but they made changes to the bike to get there. Besides, motocross, in case you hadn't noticed is all 4 stroke these days anyway.



> As far as your reference of 50 to 1..it's actually pretty common..Stihl has done it for many years..a saw has a pretty rough life and it has been working for the guys using the saws day in and day out for a living.


Do you know those guys? I do... I am helping my old logger buddy on his new house today. He cut timber for over 20 years, I have cut timber with him for several seasons. You may be in over your head here as well... Real cutters run Husky, Stihl is for homeowners.



> There is oil out there that is 100 to 1..I used it.. probably closer at 90 to1 though..no harm to the saw.
> What oil are you using in the polaris that is causing damage with the stock setting of fifty to one?
> It actually varies that ratio depending upon throttle position.
> I think the oil is more of the concern unless really running pretty hard for long distanc... the injection pump should be adequate for the engines needs


You still seem to be having comprehension issues. I used Polaris VES Gold, as recommended. The new emissions design no longer sends the fuel mixture through the case. Bottom end oil is injected directly to the bearings. hasn't been working for them very well. Turning up the oil seems to help. Pretty sure the sled see's more abuse than a saw. Unless modified saws are not wound that tight. My sled runs 200hp/ltr at 8000 rpm and is often held there for long periods of time. Pretty highly stressed engines.


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## Oneacer (Jan 3, 2011)

@Brent,

I love my Husky saw … serves me well for the last 30 years, and still running strong …


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## Toro-8-2-4 (Dec 28, 2013)

Snowbelt_subie said:


> Lol people get crazy with oil. It doesnt matter if its cars, motorcycles, equipment 2 cycle 4 cycle.
> 
> Here is something to live buy. If it's somewhat close to the viscosity and amount needed it doesnt matter one bit. 18:1 to 60:1 for a 2 cycle will be fine.
> 
> ...



Ford going to 5W-20 was all about better gas mileage. 



I have seen people have a senior moment and put straight gas in a 2 cycle and for lucky reasons it did not start. Clean it out and put in the correct mix and it starts.


I somewhat agree with you on oil mix ratio as long as it is a quality synthetic 2 cycle oil. However, If you use too much you will eventually foul the spark plug and get a lot carbon build up.


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

badbmwbrad said:


> My _Swiss Army Bike_ is a scarlet red 1971 Honda Trail 90 model number CT90K3. It has a period-correct, color-matched milk crate mounted to its substantial luggage rack :smile2:
> 
> Do you think Honda will go into production with the CT125 _Trail Cub _concept bike?
> 
> https://www.motorcyclistonline.com/honda-ct125/


I think they are going to do that, look what they did with the old Z50 and brought back the Monkey, just a little bigger now.


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## Tony P. (Jan 9, 2017)

Yesterday someone attaced me personally on a different topic for a posting of mine he believed was incorrect. I didn't care for that attack on my opinion, so I admit I'm a little touchy.

I've been following this topic and noticed some back and forth which has now escalated to where a posting has become a personal attack.

I've always believed we're like minded in our interest in snow blowers and assumed people post to offer a point of view, many valid with others not quite as good. Just my opinion, but comments like these - all from a single post - do nothing except waste a lot of people's time.




Brent Holm said:


> OMG, is this you purposely trying to be obtuse or are you really this dumb?
> 
> You also seem completely ignorant to the fact that the EPA is regulating … .
> 
> ...


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## burt8810 (Nov 28, 2019)

Gasoline dissolves oil and/or grease. Oil is miscibile in gasoline. That means it does not mechanically separate once mixed. So the "heavier" oil does not get thrown out of the oil/gas mixture by centrifugal force. Oil mixed with water (yes it can be done, see the creamy biege deposits on a dipstick of an engine with some water in the crankcase.) is an emulsion. It can and will separate mechanically. As far as added oil increasing the viscosity of the gas-oil mix compared to straight gas it's less than 2% so from a practical standpoint it just doesn't matter.
A gallon of 40:1 or 50:1 mix into a typical car fuel tank is going to result in such a high ratio that once again it just doesn't matter. 128oz/3.2oz = 40:1 ; 3.2oz/gal = 3.2oz/128oz = 8% so 3.2oz/1280oz = 0.25% (a ten gallon tank).
The more volatile components of the oil-gas mixture evaporate more quickly leaving the oily residue on the engine surface. The oil was not flung out of the oil-gas mixture.
Similar actions occur in an oil refinery column. Oil is further down the column than gasoline.
My $0.02
Herb


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## badbmwbrad (Jul 30, 2019)

Thanks for that explanation. I have a better understanding of how the oil in fuel/oil pre-mix coats the engine surfaces. 



burt8810 said:


> Gasoline dissolves oil and/or grease. Oil is miscibile in gasoline. That means it does not mechanically separate once mixed. So the "heavier" oil does not get thrown out of the oil/gas mixture by centrifugal force. Oil mixed with water (yes it can be done, see the creamy biege deposits on a dipstick of an engine with some water in the crankcase.) is an emulsion. It can and will separate mechanically. As far as added oil increasing the viscosity of the gas-oil mix compared to straight gas it's less than 2% so from a practical standpoint it just doesn't matter.
> A gallon of 40:1 or 50:1 mix into a typical car fuel tank is going to result in such a high ratio that once again it just doesn't matter. 128oz/3.2oz = 40:1 ; 3.2oz/gal = 3.2oz/128oz = 8% so 3.2oz/1280oz = 0.25% (a ten gallon tank).
> The more volatile components of the oil-gas mixture evaporate more quickly leaving the oily residue on the engine surface. The oil was not flung out of the oil-gas mixture.
> Similar actions occur in an oil refinery column. Oil is further down the column than gasoline.
> ...


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

Put your oil gas mix in a centrifuge and see what happens. Combine that with heat as the more volatile components/higher flammable separate/evaporate from the mixture and it causes the oily residue that clings to the surfaces more as the lighter materials pass up through the ports and are more easily burned in the combustion chamber quickly leaving the left-over oils coating/lubing surfaces, and the remaining oils still burning in the exhaust tract while most of the gasoline has already been burned. Your left-over oil is normally "Boiled off" and sent out the exhaust as an un-burned vapor.
If you leave the gas oil mixture in the centrifuge long enough you will see the separation, just like blood does in a centrifuge, to give an idea what happens with the mixture in a crankcase. If that did not happen, when you took apart a crankcase, it would be dry with no oil residue at all and if all the oil burned, you would never have any oil residue in the exhaust system at all.
If you leave a gas oil mix in a fuel container for a very long time, eventually you will see it start to separate with the heavier oil settling in the bottom of the can, even if the can is sealed to prevent evaporation, so you have to shake the can to mix it back up with the gasoline again, it does not stay permanently mixed. The oil doesn't completely separate like water and oil, but it does separate enough. More your heavier compounds settle to the bottom and your lighter compounds rise to the top of the container, therefore your "partial" separation. That is why you want to "Mix it back up" before you pour it out of your gas can and into your machine fuel tank.
Most of the newer oils have much less residue and ash content as the older oils, leaving less carbon deposits and with the leaner oil mixtures of today as compared to the old 20:1 mixtures there is a lot less oil left-over dripping out of the exhaust. What left-over oils is normally boiled off and sent out into the atmosphere in the exhaust gasses as un-burned hydro-carbons. You will see that with an exhaust gas analyzer.
Compare your exhaust gas analysis from a 2 stroke to a 4 stroke engine exhaust and notice the difference. You will see much higher hydro-carbons because of the un-burned oil, even though the oil is much less today than it was decades ago and the H.C. emissions are lower than they were.
Not all the oil burns in the combustion chamber like most of the gasoline does. The oil is still burning as it comes out of the exhaust pipe, and not all of it burns.
Today's 2 stroke oil is much better and cleaner with much less ash content than it was decades ago with much better lubricating qualities so they can mix it at a much less ratio with the gasoline to make the exhaust cleaner in newer engines. I.E. 20:1 vs 100:1 mixture ratio's
That is probably another reason you are seeing a lot more 2 strokes coming back to moto-cross racing again over the past few years.


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## ddec1123 (Nov 3, 2019)

My snow blower (Ariens 824) requires no gas/oil mix you have an oil tank and a gas tank we never mix gas/oil


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## burt8810 (Nov 28, 2019)

In order to have separation in a centrifuge the 2 (or more) substances must have a difference in specific gravity (weight per unit volume). Since the specific gravity of all viscosities of motor oil and gear oil and gasoline and diesel fuel are all the same they cannot be separated using a centrifuge. Viscosity is not directly related to specific gravity but is a measure of pouring resistance. Given the information above we must conclude oil is not being flung out of the oil-gas mixture as it travels through the 2 cycle engine, nor will it separate from sitting for periods of time. From "Gas Turbine System Technician": "Only materials that are insoluble in one another can be separated in a centrifuge. For example gasoline and diesel fuel cannot be separated from lubricating oil, nor can salt be removed from seawater because they are in solution. Water can be separated from oil because they ae immiscibile (incapable of being in a solution). Also, the specific gravities of the materials to be separated must differ."
This will be my last comment on this thread.
Herb


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## Brent Holm (Oct 22, 2019)

Tony P. said:


> Yesterday someone attaced me personally on a different topic for a posting of mine he believed was incorrect. I didn't care for that attack on my opinion, so I admit I'm a little touchy.
> 
> I've been following this topic and noticed some back and forth which has now escalated to where a posting has become a personal attack.
> 
> I've always believed we're like minded in our interest in snow blowers and assumed people post to offer a point of view, many valid with others not quite as good. Just my opinion, but comments like these - all from a single post - do nothing except waste a lot of people's time.


Well I am sorry to hear you are so sensitive Tony...You should try to get over that. It wouldn't get there except for the reams of bad information being spewed out by self proclaimed experts. The facts have been explained to them but they cling to fallacies and try to justify them with a lot of words. The centrifuge comments being some of the most humorous, right after it was just explained in scientific terms how that concept is a complete fabrication... How do you deal with this Tony? Just let it go? On one hand you are offended that we all can't get along and yet I get PM's praising me for standing up to the bad information being propagated here. An internet conundrum...


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## Tony P. (Jan 9, 2017)

> Well I am sorry to hear you are so sensitive Tony...You should try to get over that.


Brent, I agree to my being sensitive to people who use the internet to insult and berate others and but I don't intend to get over it. 




> It wouldn't get there except for the reams of bad information being spewed out by self proclaimed experts.


I also agree about the problem of internet confusion created by bad information and believe neither you nor I would ever do such a thing. 




> I get PM's praising me for standing up to the bad information being propagated here.


Yes, I agree calling out incorrect information is beneficial and you should rightly be praised for doing so.

So we can agree on a lot. But none of that is justification for attacking others personally.

Can we also agree, then, that denigrating and insulting others (as you did) doesn't add to the dialogue and makes otherwise valid comments appear less so? In my view attacking others on the internet because of their opinion is no less a problem than misinformation and potentially a bigger one.


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## Brent Holm (Oct 22, 2019)

Tony P. said:


> Brent, I agree to my being sensitive to people who use the internet to insult and berate others and but I don't intend to get over it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


We will likely disagree on this Tony as I just find it humorous, it is the internet. Sorry but I just can not help myself when I see some of the stupidity posted as fact, misleading people looking for good info. I have become pretty cynical over it and intend to keep jabbing at internet idiots until I pass...


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## Tony P. (Jan 9, 2017)

Brent Holm said:


> We will likely disagree on this Tony as I just find it humorous, it is the internet. Sorry but I just can not help myself when I see some of the stupidity posted as fact, misleading people looking for good info. I have become pretty cynical over it and intend to keep jabbing at internet idiots until I pass...


Happy holidays!


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## Shovel (Mar 26, 2019)

Brent Holm said:


> OMG, is this you purposely trying to be obtuse or are you really this dumb? Had you read my post, I stated the why not just run it drowning in oil... I like my machine to average between 25 and 40:1, which it does. Running more is just a waste of oil and at $50/gal for injector oil it does become a concern.
> 
> You also seem completely ignorant to the fact that the EPA is regulating off road toys, chainsaws, weed wackers and everything else out there. Go buy a new saw and adjust the carb... Adjustments come plugged, govt regs say so. So they may be trying to win a race but they made changes to the bike to get there. Besides, motocross, in case you hadn't noticed is all 4 stroke these days anyway.
> 
> ...


You are all over the place here.
First you deny that a change in oil ratio changes your AF ratio if premixed into the fuel tank.
You deny separation of oil and fuel in the crankcase.
When explained to you and you don't understand ...all you offer is denial.
You claim..the more oil the better period...when shown to you that is false..you Google a ratio... then disregard it later.
You recommend more oil on any Polaris sled... Later you claim you are happy with the factory settings.
Now you claim your don't increase that ratio due to cost of the oil...lol....which is it?
You then shift the arguement to Stihl vs husky saws...when the only mention was Stihl has been doing 50 to 1 for ages with no ill effects.then claim you can't adjust the carb on new saws.. depends on the saw...no the saw you purchased.
There are four stroke dirt bikes...if you want to win though you need the power the two strokes offer....it's not all four stroke as you say..

Then you ask if I have comprehensive issues.. pretty hard to comprehend anything you post as your position changes or is just plain wrong.
You go on to mention the oil you use as if it was mentioned before...when in fact it hadn't...showing you don't even comprehend your own posts.
You go on to talk about injection at the bearing in regard to emissions...Fact is that has nothing to do with emissions...it will not change what comes out the tail pipe.




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## Shovel (Mar 26, 2019)

Brent Holm said:


> Well I am sorry to hear you are so sensitive Tony...You should try to get over that. It wouldn't get there except for the reams of bad information being spewed out by self proclaimed experts. The facts have been explained to them but they cling to fallacies and try to justify them with a lot of words. The centrifuge comments being some of the most humorous, right after it was just explained in scientific terms how that concept is a complete fabrication... How do you deal with this Tony? Just let it go? On one hand you are offended that we all can't get along and yet I get PM's praising me for standing up to the bad information being propagated here. An internet conundrum...


What bad information has been posted that you had to correct?
You deny that more oil in the fuel tank changes the AF ratio.
You deny separation of oil and gas in the crankcase.
You deny that all oil doesn't burn that goes into the combination chamber.
You have recommended doing other that what the manufacturer recommends on brand new machines.
I bet that inbox is full indeed.



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## Shovel (Mar 26, 2019)

Brent Holm said:


> We will likely disagree on this Tony as I just find it humorous, it is the internet. Sorry but I just can not help myself when I see some of the stupidity posted as fact, misleading people looking for good info. I have become pretty cynical over it and intend to keep jabbing at internet idiots until I pass...


Read my above post



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## Kiss4aFrog (Nov 3, 2013)

It would appear this has gone as far as it's going to with constructive input and it's getting way to personal.
You can object to an idea, opinion or even a fact but when you make it personal you've gone too far.
It seems that's where this discussion has landed.

:icon-sadwave:


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