# HS 828S Hydrostatic Fluid Change.....big mistake



## gozonablat

I decided to change the hydrostatic drive fluid because it's been a long time over ten years and it was pretty black looking. I should have come here first and read everything. I didn't...... so now I've drained it and now I'm trying to refill. Not having any luck. I read where I may need to remove the transmission and go through the Honda service manual method of bleeding out the air. Has anybody out there manage to do this without removing the transmission. If so.....help me out here.


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## Big Ed

gozonablat said:


> I decided to change the hydrostatic drive fluid because it's been a long time over ten years and it was pretty black looking. I should have come here first and read everything. I didn't...... so now I've drained it and now I'm trying to refill. Not having any luck. I read where I may need to remove the transmission and go through the Honda service manual method of bleeding out the air. Has anybody out there manage to do this without removing the transmission. If so.....help me out here.


Since no one answered I will add this.
I looked for pictures and could not find any, I never had this unit. 
I did find someone saying that he used a outboard engine lower end pump. I can't re-find what he said now. 

Is there 2 holes one for the fill and one for the drain on it? 
And how did you get the old stuff out? Through the fill tube? Or a plug?

The reason I asked is that I got to thinking if the unit fills like my lower end unit on my outboard engine. The bottom hole is for the fill, you pump it in until it comes out the upper hole in the process it expels the air. The pump I have for my outboard is a hand pump that attaches to the lube bottle. Since I read that, I was wondering if yours might fill like that.

This probably did not help at all but I see no one said anything so I figured I would ask.
If anything it gave your question a BUMP?

I did find a manual do you have one? It really doesn't say much about the unit in question.
I see that they do sell the fluid. There must be some way besides tearing it apart?


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## Joefischer

Everything that I've found requires the transmission to be removed which basically is a full dis-assembly of the snow blower unit. My HS724 is in pieces in the basement right now, you can see my posts and the step by step procedure is posted in that post.

Good luck!


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## Kiss4aFrog

You need to read this: http://www.snowblowerforum.com/forum/honda-snowblowers/4322-hs828-hydro-fluid-change.html


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## M1A2 Hahn

I own a retired Honda lawn mower with a hydrostatic tranny. It worked for 19 years on almost an acre of flats, banks, swales, and around trees, shrubs and beds. I stopped using it only because my back gave out. Now someone else does it.
I never had to touch the transmission or its fluid. I gave it plugs, dino oil, new blades, and I winterized it every single year. That's all.


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## Surge

M1A2 Hahn said:


> I own a retired Honda lawn mower with a hydrostatic tranny. It worked for 19 years on almost an acre of flats, banks, swales, and around trees, shrubs and beds. I stopped using it only because my back gave out. Now someone else does it.
> I never had to touch the transmission or its fluid. I gave it plugs, dino oil, new blades, and I winterized it every single year. That's all.


Yep, no need to mess with those transmissions. They are pretty bullet proof. Especially the older ones which were commercial grade quality.


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## Kiss4aFrog

Well you can say that but I dumped the fluid out of my craftsman and my JD riders last year and then bled them. The fluid looked like crap, dark and watery. They each took a different weight and I used synthetic and I'm happy with what I feel is better warm weather performance and knowing like an automotive engine the guts of the pumps are bathed in fresh clean additive rich oil. But that's just me.

This Honda in a snow blower might be a whole different critter as it appears it's a bear to bleed.


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## db9938

I do not have one, nor have I ever done this. But if I were faced with this, I think that I would approach it like bleeding brakes. 

That is overfill the reservoir, and crack the bleeder bolt on the top. This would, or could prevent the dreaded "air in the system." The problem is, I am not sure if the bolt is accessible, in place. And I would imagine that you would need to lift it off the ground to allow the tracks to spin freely. 

Of course, if running and bleeding it is out of the option, then bleeding it while off, running it, bleeding it some more, and repeat as necessary. It's my only guess, and could be completely wrong with this.


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## [email protected]

I responded to gozonablat in a PM with an update....on all Honda hydrostatic 2-stage models, the HST fluid never needs to be changed, and the only reason to drain it at all would be to repair some internal fault or problem. 

If the fluid has been drained, the transmission must be removed from the frame for a bench fill/bleed. This is because the fill/bleed procedure requires _the drain hole to be pointed upward_, (transmission inverted from its normal, installed orientation in the frame). This allows air to vent as fluid is added and the shafts turned manually to perform air bleeding.


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## Big Ed

Like I said I never had one to work on and just put a maybe?, answer in.


They should have made it like my outboard engine lower end units.

The plug on the bottom after you drain the oil, becomes the fill hole.
You take out the top plug and pump the new oil in from the bottom and it pushes all the air out the top plug. 

Oil that never needs to be changed?
I am not a believer in that. Especially if you're using it for many years.


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## Kiss4aFrog

I think of it like the 2006 Ford Focus that came with a lifetime air filter. Does anyone believe that ?? Ford did, not sure why but it was only one model and they haven't done it since.

I'm sure the engineers have a life expectancy on that Honda snow blower and on the fluid and they think it will be out of service by then. That and the fluid in a snow blower compared to my riding mowers doesn't have to operate on a ninety five degree day so thermal breakdown is at a minimum. Most of us on this forum keep things alive long after most people throw them away. So maybe in "our" case that fluid can reach a point where it should be changed.

Bottom line, if the fluid was nasty I'd pull the unit, drain it, tip it upside down and bleed it and feel better I did (once I had it back together and was done swearing)


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## db9938

[email protected] said:


> I responded to gozonablat in a PM with an update....on all Honda hydrostatic 2-stage models, the HST fluid never needs to be changed, and the only reason to drain it at all would be to repair some internal fault or problem.
> 
> If the fluid has been drained, the transmission must be removed from the frame for a bench fill/bleed. This is because the fill/bleed procedure requires _the drain hole to be pointed upward_, (transmission inverted from its normal, installed orientation in the frame). This allows air to vent as fluid is added and the shafts turned manually to perform air bleeding.


Ok, so I was kinda of on the right track.


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## HowOldIsYourChurch

Planned obsolescence.


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## KpaxFAQ

That hydrostatic fluid if left "sealed" and no dirt/moisture is allowed to enter will last more hours then the engine itself. FACT. I would only change if the engine is out for an overhaul! That's thousands of hours....that's a lot of snow....


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## loneraider

I'm gonna stick me nose in here , like BIG ED said you could try the reverse bleed method. Got a hose (clear plastic tube) pump the trans fluid
in from the bottom up ,it will push out any air in the system !! if you over fill it you can always drain a little out the bottom.. it works on outboard motors, motorcycles, 4x4 trucks, I know because I have done it.. its better than ripping a tranny apart. Goodluck.


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## Apple Guy

My 3 year old 928W has started to get black residue on the bottom of the reservoir. So in the next couple of years I will be changing mine. 

I found this and looking at the factory manual and tipping it up on the auger is all you need to do it right WITHOUT removing the tranny.


"""Okay when the Honda's are re-filled you need to tip it up on its nose, remove the reservoir from the handlebar and hold it straight up then fill it with the drain plug out of the transmission. when the fluid starts to come out of the drain hole put the plug back in, replace the reservoir and top it off it, it should take just under a quart of fluid. You probably have an air bubble trapped in the top of the trans (I tried for years to fill it another way and this is the only one that works) which is preventing it form functioning. run it and re-check and you should be good to go.""""

AND

""""You can do the same thing with it in the blower by simply tipping it up onto the nose. One of the areas of concern I had was that you only got a half quart in to it. It should take all but about a half inch in the bottom of the bottle. With it tipped up and the plug out if the fluid is at level with the drain hole you can rotate the wheels with the bypass arm engaged and that will force any air out of the driven side and allow the fluid to go in. That should get it moving enough to allow the air to work out and then you can fill it the rest of the way. It is important that when it is tipped it goes far enough forward that the drain plug is higher than the rest of the trans so no air is trapped. Some hydros run with an air space these do not and if it is even a little low it will not work. It has to be filled through the reservoir or else the line will trap air and the additional fluid will not go down the hole when it is put back into the running position. """"

.


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## canadiantim

Newb reviving an old post but minimal info on this:

Did you try the bleeding method of standing the blower on the bucket Apple Guy? Anyone else try this method?

In looking at my Honda 928 it sure looks like standing it on the bucket will get the bleed screw up high so should work quite well to bleed I would think. 

Don't know the history on my unit so would like to refresh the fluid but don't want to end up disassembling the whole thing, It sure 'looks' easy to fill/bleed this model when I look at it...

Thanks
Tim


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## YSHSfan

Here is some pretty good information regarding the hydrostatic honda transmission 

http://www.snowblowerforum.com/foru...servicing-right-hydrostatic-transmission.html


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## [email protected]

canadiantim said:


> Don't know the history on my unit so would like to refresh the fluid but don't want to end up disassembling the whole thing, It sure 'looks' easy to fill/bleed this model when I look at it...


Honda does not recommend changing the HST fluid; it is a lifetime fill from the factory. No reason to change it or do any service at all unless you are having problems. If the trans. NEEDS repairs, that's different. But changing the fluid just because you don't know any history is not necessary. Fluid will get darker and smell a bit over the years, but again, unless it's broken, no need to ever touch the fluid.


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## JamesReady

I totally disagree with [email protected] and anyone who says the fluid will last forever...!! That is total CRAP. Craftsman said this also for my lawn tractor... I found a way to suck it out and replace it and it makes a HUGE difference...

NO fluid/oil lasts forever... (just until the unit is out of warranty) .. now you gotta buy a new one..!!

If I had one of these, I'd be changing the fluid...!!

"Lifetime fill from the factory"... Yeah, they filled it (I assume) but the fluid will not last forever.! Change it guys....


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## PAfromQC

Never heard of a eternal oil, get me a couple of dozen cases to go...lol...Seriously, even if its in a sealed enclosure, the oil will loose its properties over time (caused by heat cycles, condensation, metal wear, etc...), mineral or synthetic based. Regular maintenance is the key for the longevity and troublefree operation of any machinery in normal operating conditions, even more in harsh working conditions. Sure its cost more but it save often alot of expensive repairs on the long run.


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## canadiantim

My account vanished for awhile so I could not login until now. 

Thanks for the info guys. I've read everything previously posted on changing the hydro fluid (before my original post on 9-21-2016 in this thread) including Honda's recommendation that it's "lifetime and no need to change". True, this fluid does not experience a harsh, hot environment but all fluid will degrade and pick up internal contaminants and wear particles over time, eventually contributing to failures. 

My hydro drive worked fine but I was not comfortable with how black the fluid in a sealed environment was getting.

So I changed the hydrostatic fluid. Was a VERY easy job, not much more difficult than changing the engine oil. I used the bleeding instructions that Robert has provided in several posts. I did NOT have to remove the transmission in this HS928 but there are a couple different transmission designs and mine matched the "W" style so I was able to position the drain hole as the highest point of the transmission by standing the blower on it's nose and tipping it a bit past vertical. 

Took me about 20minutes total to drain old fluid, add new fluid and bleed the transmission. The old fluid looked as black as used diesel engine oil. I warmed up the jug of new hydrostatic fluid in a pot of boiling water so it was really thin and this helped the fluid flow and displace air very easily. I have pictures but this is such an easy process I'm not sure anyone would need anything beyond Robert's bleeding instructions.

Tim


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## orangputeh

[email protected] said:


> I responded to gozonablat in a PM with an update....on all Honda hydrostatic 2-stage models, the HST fluid never needs to be changed, and the only reason to drain it at all would be to repair some internal fault or problem.
> 
> If the fluid has been drained, the transmission must be removed from the frame for a bench fill/bleed. This is because the fill/bleed procedure requires _the drain hole to be pointed upward_, (transmission inverted from its normal, installed orientation in the frame). This allows air to vent as fluid is added and the shafts turned manually to perform air bleeding.


For future reference < I am surprised at this answer from [email protected] I have replaced the hydrostatic fluid due to seal blow outs MANY times that were completely drained of fluid without removing the hydrostatic tranny. It can be done in the nose down ( Up on bucket ) position so that the drain plug is pointing up. Then you fill at the drain plug to top. replace drain plug and place machine back on level surface, then fill the rest from reservoir slowly all the while watching the air bubbles. I start the machine and tie drive handle down and slowly add fluid all the while with the cap off watching until the bubbles stop. has worked for me every time.

I do agree with Robert that the fluid does not need to be changed . I understand why people want to do it because it becomes black but the tranny still works fine. the only reason I have done it is because people may tighten cap too much and the system can not breathe thru the top creating excess pressure which may slowly push out one of the seals thus causing a leak.

If anyone has something else to add , I would like to learn more about this. Thanks.


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## chrisbloom

I am curious what methods you guys use to push the axle seals back in if they puff out a bit. I have a machine that is leaking from an overtightened cap, and I haven't dealt with it yet, but in peaking at the seals, it looks like kind of a snug area to work in. Usually a socket will work, or a piece of PVC, but I am curious what the preferred method is. Thanks.


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## orangputeh

chrisbloom said:


> I am curious what methods you guys use to push the axle seals back in if they puff out a bit. I have a machine that is leaking from an overtightened cap, and I haven't dealt with it yet, but in peaking at the seals, it looks like kind of a snug area to work in. Usually a socket will work, or a piece of PVC, but I am curious what the preferred method is. Thanks.


the best method is a forked end pry bar . or just a pry bar moved around so the seal is pushed back in evenly. the only reason this would not work is if the seal was dried up, cracked, split , I believe. Have done this to many machines and never have an owner come back with the same problem ) knock on wood.

@JnC has replaced seals . much much more complicated and labor intensive.


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