# Another New member from Mass......please help



## Twes (Feb 13, 2016)

Good afternoon, I am a new member to this site but have been reading and following along for some time. Thanks for having such a great site. I Was wondering if you guys could help me out I am in a bit of a pickle. A friend of mine brought me an Ariens ST 727 with a tecumseh H70 Motor. The main issue is that once the throttle was increased it would over rev to the point where it sounded like it was about to snap a rod. I started off suspecting the carburetor as the machine had sat for sometime. After cleaning the Jets and reassembling the carburetor the problem stayed the same. Before I started messing with the governor linkage I wanted to make sure it was not fuel related so I replaced the carburetor with no improvement. So I then went and made sure the governor linkage was moving freely and attempted to adjust the linkage. I was able to get it to the point where upon increasing acceleration it sounded somewhat normal however as soon as I attempt to blow snow it bogs down and regains rpms when I back away from the snow which tells me perhaps I did not adjust the linkage correctly because it doesn't sound like the governor is not kicking in when it is supposed to. Am I missing something? Any suggestions? I attached a couple pictures in case something stands out to anybody. Sorry about the long-winded Post just wanted to try to be detailed. Thanks for the help and thanks again for a great site!!


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## Kiss4aFrog (Nov 3, 2013)

:welcome: to the forum Twes

Do you have anything to actually read the RPM to help you set it properly ??


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## unknown1 (Dec 13, 2015)

If you need to buy a tachometer, I recently researched what to buy over on this thread..

http://www.snowblowerforum.com/foru...78713-what-rpm-tachometer-should-i-buy-2.html

Bottom line....

I bought one of these low cost units and ordered it from Asia. It took forever to arrive so you might want to pay the extra $2 and order it from the guy in California since you seem to have a more urgent need.

I have not used it yet... but people seem to say it's good enough.

$7.14 (approx depends on exchange rates) shipped from Hong Kong...

Digital Engine Tach Tachometer Hour Meter Inductive for Motorcycle Motor FC0 | eBay

$9.35 shipped from California...

Digital Tach Hour Meter Tachometer Gauge Spark Plugs Gas Engine Motocycle ATV | eBay


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## Twes (Feb 13, 2016)

Thanks for the replies, I actually have a tach gauge on order. I'm just concerned I messed up somewhere because it seems to idle within a reasonable range but when I come into contact with snow it doesn't increase the engine to compensate like It usually does instead it just boggs down and returns back to speed once I back out of the snow.


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## unknown1 (Dec 13, 2015)

Twes said:


> Thanks for the replies, I actually have a tach gauge on order. I'm just concerned I messed up somewhere because it seems to idle within a reasonable range but when I come into contact with snow it doesn't increase the engine to compensate like It usually does instead it just boggs down and returns back to speed once I back out of the snow.


I believe that symptom can also be due to fuel mixture running too lean.
Not sure but worth checking.


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## nt40lanman (Dec 31, 2012)

Sounds like you have an internal governor problem.


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## bad69cat (Nov 30, 2015)

It looks to me like the governor link at the block entry point (where it screws to the shaft clamp) is at to much of an angle? They are usually a little more straight in line - but not perfectly straight. It should be canted slightly - but your looks to be to much.... 

Either way I think your problem lie in the governor. Watch Donny boys vid's and see what you come up with.


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## Twes (Feb 13, 2016)

thanks for the responses. stuart80112, I set the carb to suggested factory settings but couldn't dial it in any further with the super high idle issue. Was kind of figuring/hoping a fuel mixture issue wouldn't cause such an extremely high idle (like high enough where I was afraid it was going to blow up). nt40lanman, that was my big fear , an internal governor issue. If I can manually move the governor linkage and it affects the rpms would that rule out internal damage? If not is there another way to determine without tearing the engine down?


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## Twes (Feb 13, 2016)

thanks bad69cat , The angle your referring to seemed to steep to me as well but thats the angle i have to set it at in order for it to not idle through the roof. Can't for the life of me figure what else it might be. there's no "intake manifold" on this model or maybe i'd suspect an air intake leak . I replaced the carb gasket between the carb and the motor just to be sure.


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## 404 (Feb 1, 2015)

That gov lever looks at the wrong angle to me.

The manual that can be found free online gives a procedure.


Loosen green screw. Turn and hold shaft counter clockwise with pliers. Swing the red lever in direction of blue arrow and hold there. Tighten green screw.


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## unknown1 (Dec 13, 2015)

Twes said:


> thanks for the responses. stuart80112, I set the carb to suggested factory settings but couldn't dial it in any further with the super high idle issue. Was kind of figuring/hoping a fuel mixture issue wouldn't cause such an extremely high idle (like high enough where I was afraid it was going to blow up). nt40lanman, that was my big fear , an internal governor issue. If I can manually move the governor linkage and it affects the rpms would that rule out internal damage? If not is there another way to determine without tearing the engine down?


If you manually push the governor linkage, you are basically doing what the internal governor should be trying to do itself.

When you move that linkage by hand, you will open or close the throttle and that will change the RPMs. That's precisely what the internal governor tries to do. 

It uses centrifugal force (aka centripetal acceleration) using small counterweights to respond to the RPMs of the engine.. this in turn causes the governor linkage to move the way you are doing by hand.. which then adjusts the RPMs.

So if the internal governor is messed up... it won't be able to push or pull on the linkages and therefore it won't be able to adjust the RPMs the way it's supposed to. The two extreme cases are an engine that runs way too fast with no load on it (because the governor isn't slowing it down)... or way too slow under load (because the governor isn't speeding it up). 

Those are also your symptoms... sorry to say.

Make sense?


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## Blackfin (Jan 25, 2016)

if your linkage is as freely moving as the one in this video (advance to ~2:28):






and you've got no lost-motion due to looseness in the governor linkage and if the linkage is properly adjusted then I'd agree with the others suggesting that there may be an internal problem with the governor drive, counterweights etc.


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## unknown1 (Dec 13, 2015)

Blackfin makes a very good point!

There's two parts to this...

1) Does the internal governor push and pull when it should? This is hard for you to see from the outside because the motions are small. They become visible and exaggerated only by watching the linkages move in response.

2) Assuming the governor *is* pushing and pulling properly.. are the linkages too loose or too tight or out of alignment so that the governor motion is not being translated over to the throttle properly? If everything is working.. a tiny motion from the governor gets turned into a much bigger motion on the throttle plate.

You can check #2 from the outside using the videos people have posted.

If everything on the outside seems right... then you are back to thinking that it's the internal governor that is not pushing and pulling as it should and that would mean opening things up.


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## bad69cat (Nov 30, 2015)

Amen there guys. It's a pretty delicate balance when it's working right. It doesn't take much on either side of the equation to muck it up.


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## nwcove (Mar 2, 2015)

i could be totally wrong, but it just looks odd that the linkage from the butterfly goes back to the throttle lever and not to the governor arm ?


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## Twes (Feb 13, 2016)

definitely will try that , I've only been loosening the nut and pivoting the arm and retightening the nut. Haven't addressed the shaft that you refer to in the pic . Thanks again i'll report back


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## unknown1 (Dec 13, 2015)

nwcove said:


> i could be totally wrong, but it just looks odd that the linkage from the butterfly goes back to the throttle lever and not to the governor arm ?


This video shows that the linkage DOES go to the throttle on a Tecumseh HSK70. I assume that's the same engine.. right?


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## unknown1 (Dec 13, 2015)

One other thought.. because the governor is supposed to pull the linkage attached to the throttle.. and this in turn pulls the butterfly on the carburetor... are BOTH of those things well lubed and free-moving? If they are too "stiff" then the governor would have a tough time yanking them back and forth. How easy is it to move them by hand?

$0.02


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## unknown1 (Dec 13, 2015)

Wait a minute... what's that THIRD linkage on the throttle plate?
I think there should be one going to the carb, one going to the governor.... but I see a THIRD thing on your pictures.

http://www.snowblowerforum.com/foru...ther-new-member-mass-please-help-img_1597-jpg

The one I don't get is in the second hole down just beneath the linkage that goes to the carb. Is it a spring-type thing?

EDIT: Something looks wrong.. I just googled this picture which shows how the linkages might be. 
Are you missing a whole linkage going to the throttle lever?
https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7459/11910331514_0ee3222191_b.jpg

I may not be comparing apples to apples though. When I google for H70 and HSK70 and Tecumseh 7HP I am not sure what the differences are.


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## Twes (Feb 13, 2016)

Thanks 404 I will try that procedure looks like I've been adjusting it incorrectly by just loosening the screw and pivoting the arm then retightening, rather than turning the shaft counterclockwise at the same time.


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

It was a different engine, but I spent some time adjusting my Tecumseh governor last year. Mine had a spring going between two of the arms, which I notice yours does not seem to have. I'm sure that's deliberate, it just caught my eye. 

At one point I set mine up wrong redface and as I recall it held the throttle closed the whole time. That beats holding it open and not shutting the engine down before blowing the engine, of course. But if you don't go through the process the right way, you can make it so the governor can't do its job. 

So definitely follow the directions and ensure it's set correctly. Start the engine, and watch how the arm coming from the governor itself moves as engine speeds/slows between full speed and idle. This shows you the main "input" that drives the operation of the governor. Having the engine off should show the direction the governor arm moves with the engine turning very-slowly (not at all). 

With the engine off, set the throttle lever to fast or idle, and move the governor arm, to simulate the engine speeding up, or slowing down, and see what the throttle plate does as a result. 

With the throttle lever set to fast, and the governor arm in the engine-spinning-slowly position (simulating being set for full operating speed, but the RPM bogging down), that should open the throttle plate significantly. 

Set the throttle to idle speed, and move the governor arm to engine-spinning-fast position, and the throttle plate should move closed. 

If you're not seeing the expected behavior (maybe the throttle plate closes when it should open), perhaps the governor linkages are set up incorrectly, or something similar.


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## Twes (Feb 13, 2016)

Sorry Stuart80112 I didn't see your replies. i think the third linkage your referring to on one is actually the spring, but the link you included does include a piece thats definitely on mine i will try to find one because it definitely looks like mine should have it. Thanks again .


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## Twes (Feb 13, 2016)

RedOctobyr I will definitely look into it as this could certainly be the case since it does appear someone worked on it prior to me .


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## 404 (Feb 1, 2015)

Twes said:


> Thanks 404 I will try that procedure looks like I've been adjusting it incorrectly by just loosening the screw and pivoting the arm then retightening, rather than turning the shaft counterclockwise at the same time.


You are very welcome. I had to read the manual many times to understand what they are talking about. If one sees an engine with the front cover off and examines the linkage then the directions make sense.


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## Twes (Feb 13, 2016)

Just wanted to update everyone in regards to my thread,
First off thank you everyone for your valuable input. To quickly recap, I ensured all the governor linkage was free and responding appropriately to me manually moving the linkages. I attempted to adjust the governor linkage the proper way as indicated by the Picture posted from member 404 which at first I was hopeful was going to work because I did observe some movement within the linkage that I hadn't before. Unfortunately after attempting this and re-attempting with minor changes each time, the only two settings I seem to be able to obtain was either the idle wants to rev out-of-control or I can set it to idle normally but then it does not react when under load. So I believe I am at the point where I need to start suspecting the internal portion of the Gov. gears/Weights. I guess I will talk to my friend and see if it is something he/I want to undertake(Tearing the engine down and rebuilding). Thanks again for all the help please let me know if someone noticed something I missed. I will be sure to update as to what I find if I decide to tear down the engine. Thanks again


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## bad69cat (Nov 30, 2015)

Yeah - I think a tear down is in order at this point. We beat the other end of the horse to death. Good luck!


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## 404 (Feb 1, 2015)

Getting to the governor gear is not too bad.

The big shaft with the belt pulley on it always develops some surface rust or dirt. This crud must be removed BEFORE removing the cover. I like to use a wire cup wheel in an angle grinder to clean the shaft. Go all around till it shines everywhere. I go right up to the oil seal.

The cover has a bearing or bushing in it, ramming an encrudurated oversize shaft through that does not make it "better". There is a youtube by a famous small engine repair person where he does not bother to clean the shaft, hits it multiple times with a rubber hammer instead.:dizzy:

Don't be that person. When the shaft is clean, the cover comes off with minimal force once the gasket or sealant releases.


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

Sorry to hear it's still giving you trouble. 

I'm trying to think if there's a way you can confirm that the governor arm isn't behaving properly, before having to open the engine. Just in case there could be something else going on with the governor linkage, for instance, that we're not realizing. 

Something like checking whether the governor arm pulls harder or more gently, depending on whether you have the engine turning fast or slowly. 

I'd expect that as the engine RPM changed, you should be able to feel a reaction by the governor arm. If it just sits there, then there's probably something wrong internally. But if it reacts differently at the fast and slow engine speeds, then perhaps the internals are OK. 

I'm not saying that you haven't already done this. But I try to make sure I've ruled out all the easy-to-check things, before moving on to the harder stuff. If I opened the engine up and found the governor looked OK, then noticed something with the external linkages that I'd missed previously, I'd be fairly annoyed with myself  

My apologies if you've already done this test, for instance, or other better tests. I'm just kind of thinking out loud, of what I'd want to try if I was scratching my head over this.


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## bwright1818 (Dec 2, 2014)

RedOctobyr gives great advice. Getting into the internal governor is not going to end pretty for anyone who is in a hurry or has minimal mechanical savvy. Don't get me wrong....I am not suggesting anyone does, or does not. I have no idea. I'm just sayin'. Everyone is their own judge of what they can do.

That being said, I had an H50 that had the exact same symptoms. Over-speed with no load and bogged with a load. I followed the directions for adjusting the governor as best I could, with no success. So, I went in after the internal parts. Hours later, I could see no obvious broken or worn things; so I put it all back together; and lo and behold, it worked perfectly. I could not say for the life of me, why. But it was a very good learning experience..... 

If you go this route, I would just suggest taking some pictures and doing some line drawings as you take it apart, to help solidify in your mind where all the linkages and little washers, etc, go. The Tecumseh manual seems a little vague to me in this area.


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## Twes (Feb 13, 2016)

Thanks again for more good advice.... I AM def apprehensive in tearing it apart specifically for the reason you guys mentioned ....if I find everything to be ok inside and realize its something I missed from the beginning I will be extremely P.O.'D....prob gonna re visit all the ideas from the thread and run through them all again ......and hopefully find something  I'm Def not the most experienced small engine person out there but feel I have a pretty good grasp on the concepts but still sometimes tend to doubt myself.....


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## bwright1818 (Dec 2, 2014)

Well, I wouldn't worry too, too much. It is a work-bench-in-a-warm-shop kind of thing, not outside in the cold with the engine still on the machine. And you do have to keep the dirt and grime out. I'm sure you could do it as long as you use pictures and drawings. I mean, it's KIND of intricate but it's not a helicopter transmission either.....


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## unknown1 (Dec 13, 2015)

Twes said:


> Thanks again for more good advice.... I AM def apprehensive in tearing it apart specifically for the reason you guys mentioned ....if I find everything to be ok inside and realize its something I missed from the beginning I will be extremely P.O.'D....prob gonna re visit all the ideas from the thread and run through them all again ......and hopefully find something  I'm Def not the most experienced small engine person out there but feel I have a pretty good grasp on the concepts but still sometimes tend to doubt myself.....


Not wanting to be all doom and gloom here... but... I have two engines with cracked cases and blown connecting rods. One has a small crack in the case and the other a huge hole. This last week I disassembled the bad one (which I do not expect to be repairable) as a dress-rehearsal for trying to fix the other one. I found missing teeth from the plastic governor. Those teeth were melted onto the crank shaft. 

So here's the thing... every time you run the engine from this point forward, you potentially run the risk of damaging something. If, for example, there are plastic teeth floating around in the oil... you don't want them to find their way onto moving parts which would make the repair much more time consuming and difficult. So be careful how much you run the engine before diving in there.


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## classiccat (Mar 1, 2014)

this is what it looks like when the governor spool is stuck open: 


If you follow the proper governor calibration procedure on this stuck governor spool, you're teaching the engine to open the throttle all of the way when the cam is already haulin' butt  I was lucky to catch it right away and not grenade that little H35.


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## unknown1 (Dec 13, 2015)

Here are some pictures from the two engines I am playing with. The red engine might be repairable. All the others are from the dress-rehearsal on the black engine.

Photos:
https://goo.gl/photos/aWC4mnygh7oiEF796

Looks like white plastic and green plastic melted onto the shaft... I guess one color is from the governor teeth... no idea what the other color comes from.
The point is.... be careful when continuing to run the engine.


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## Twes (Feb 13, 2016)

Thanks for all the pics and passing on your experiences, gonna see if my buddy will let me make an attempt and take my time and give dive in. I'll follow up if/when it gets underway. Thanks again!


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## unknown1 (Dec 13, 2015)

Twes said:


> Thanks for all the pics and passing on your experiences, gonna see if my buddy will let me make an attempt and take my time and give dive in. I'll follow up if/when it gets underway. Thanks again!


Good luck. Take it slow...take lots of pictures... then more pictures. Take videos and talk out loud to yourself... you may feel silly...but you'll be glad you did 24 hours later. No one else needs to see them.

You've got nothing to lose.

1) Your engine isn't working.
2) You've done your best on the outside.
3) You don't want to pay $70 per hour to have someone else do it.
4) You might get it working... and feel like King for a Day... or more!
5) If not... you learned a lot.. and still have the same engine.. still not working right.

Let us know how it goes. Lots of folks to help out and answer questions.
Rooting for ya!


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## Twes (Feb 13, 2016)

*A quick update and big thank you........*

I removed the engine and the cover which revealed what a few members suggested....Sure enough there were the two weights and some broken plastic pieces at the bottom of the engine and a few broken fins on the governor gear, I have the gear on order and will update when I receive and install . Thank you again for all the help!


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## unknown1 (Dec 13, 2015)

Twes said:


> I removed the engine and the cover which revealed what a few members suggested....Sure enough there were the two weights and some broken plastic pieces at the bottom of the engine and a few broken fins on the governor gear, I have the gear on order and will update when I receive and install . Thank you again for all the help!


Nice! You caught it before the plastic melted onto the shaft. My engine was not so lucky.

https://goo.gl/photos/aWC4mnygh7oiEF796


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## classiccat (Mar 1, 2014)

Good deal! thank you for reporting back!


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