# 24 SHO Platinum EFI



## dvlack (Jan 21, 2018)

I'm new to the forum, so thx in advance for any help! I'm about ready to buy an Ariens 24Sho Platinum EFI. Any comments on the EFI dependability or service?


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## Cardo111 (Feb 16, 2015)

:welcome: aboard!

I have the carbureted version. It's a nice unit had/have some issues with the fuel tank and gas cap some leaking and an overcomplicated fuel filler neck assembly. That has been addressed and corrected on the current model. It is a powerul, feature rich machine. There may have been some starting issues with the EFI, last year per some of the reviews out there. It's in its second year now, last year a lot of potential buyers took a wait and see approach because the technology was new to snowblowers. While not too popular on the forum at this point, actual owners should be weighing in soon enough.


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## Jackmels (Feb 18, 2013)

Stay Away from the EFI. Carbs work Fine, and are User Friendly.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

Jackmels said:


> Stay Away from the EFI. Carbs work Fine, and are User Friendly.


I couldn't agree more.


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## stromr (Jul 20, 2016)

There have been some problems with the EFI system as used by Ariens. I can't find the thread where I read about a couple of people having problems with them. How wide spread it is will be hard to tell as we don't know how many of them Ariens has sold compared to the number of problems. If I had the money to spend on a new snowblower I wouldn't hesitate to buy one since they've now been out a year. For me regardless of how simple carbs are to work on and how we all know all the problems you can have with carbs my faith in new technology tells me EFI will be better. There will always be rational from people my age (70) and younger who won't embrace new technology until it's old technology. So be it, If I take the risk on new tech and get burned, c'est la vie. If it works for me, great! If it works for you even better!


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

stromr said:


> There have been some problems with the EFI system as used by Ariens. I can't find the thread where I read about a couple of people having problems with them. How wide spread it is will be hard to tell as we don't know how many of them Ariens has sold compared to the number of problems. If I had the money to spend on a new snowblower I wouldn't hesitate to buy one since they've now been out a year. For me regardless of how simple carbs are to work on and how we all know all the problems you can have with carbs my faith in new technology tells me EFI will be better. There will always be rational from people my age (70) and younger who won't embrace new technology until it's old technology. So be it, If I take the risk on new tech and get burned, c'est la vie. If it works for me, great! If it works for you even better!


There is no advantage to EFI on a snowblower. I love EFI for cars, for a number of reasons, or equipment that works in different environments under constantly changing loads. The operational circumstances a snowblower, lawnmower, small engines in general, work within very defined parameters. 

For snowblowers it introduces a level of unnecessary complexity, points of failure, and circumstances that aren't necessary. 

And it's not an Ariens thing, it's an industry thing. Ariens isn't making the EFI system, and it's totally possible they all manufacturers are using the same one or two.


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## 3vanman (Nov 21, 2017)

Just as Tecumseh was, now its Briggs, Honda and LCT. We will continue to see the fuel systems change on small engines.
Auto chokes on small engines were a stop gap fix.
Emissions compliance is the big thing...and complying. Canada (Ontario) is about to embark on a "minimum 10%" while here in BC we now see as much as 15%. 
We can grumble and fight it, but in 10-15 years or less it will be a reality...just like some of us remember when a 350 was a 350, and it had a 2 or 4 barrel.
The big question is do you want to get in on the first, second or third generation....
For us old guys, until they all blow up there will always be a few Snow King engines around...


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

3vanman said:


> Just as Tecumseh was, now its Briggs, Honda and LCT. We will continue to see the fuel systems change on small engines.
> Auto chokes on small engines were a stop gap fix.
> Emissions compliance is the big thing...and complying. Canada (Ontario) is about to embark on a "minimum 10%" while here in BC we now see as much as 15%.
> We can grumble and fight it, but in 10-15 years or less it will be a reality...just like some of us remember when a 350 was a 350, and it had a 2 or 4 barrel.
> ...


I've seen a number of threads here about re-jetting a carb and how it totally changed the attitude of the machine. Won't be able to do that with EFI. 

I'm not disagreeing it's coming, I just don't think it's necessary, and I don't think people will be happy when the deficiencies are exposed.


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## 1132le (Feb 23, 2017)

jsup said:


> I've seen a number of threads here about re-jetting a carb and how it totally changed the attitude of the machine. Won't be able to do that with EFI.
> 
> I'm not disagreeing it's coming, I just don't think it's necessary, and I don't think people will be happy when the deficiencies are exposed.


Yoiu dont need to rejet efi 
Thats what efi does its always right on the mark
efi produces a stronger flatter torque curve below peak torque ( just what blowers like)
it starts better
the gov is instant which makes the 306cc 30 efi feel like a 369cc without efi i tested one vs a non efi 
didnt you say something about have you ever used one before in a prior thread?

That said ill take the carb motor and make it run right


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## 3vanman (Nov 21, 2017)

jsup said:


> I've seen a number of threads here about re-jetting a carb and how it totally changed the attitude of the machine. Won't be able to do that with EFI.
> 
> I'm not disagreeing it's coming, I just don't think it's necessary, and I don't think people will be happy when the deficiencies are exposed.


I have read many articles about 'emissions" improvements, and agree that many wonder why. Increasing the minimum ethanol content in gas is the first, and if I am to believe some of the "rationals" for fuel injection systems this would be one.

I have attached a "joke" I found on line, but wondering if/when we may see such ideas floated by governments. 

Ontario requires emissions tests for lawn mowers


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## GoBlowSnow (Sep 4, 2015)

Jackmels said:


> Stay Away from the EFI. Carbs work Fine, and are User Friendly.


Ditto


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

3vanman said:


> I have read many articles about 'emissions" improvements, and agree that many wonder why. Increasing the minimum ethanol content in gas is the first, and if I am to believe some of the "rationals" for fuel injection systems this would be one.
> 
> I have attached a "joke" I found on line, but wondering if/when we may see such ideas floated by governments.
> 
> Ontario requires emissions tests for lawn mowers


What's ridiculous, is ethanol in gas reduces mileage/efficiency so you wind up burning more gas, making more emissions, what's the net savings.

I'm all for getting emissions as low as possible, but not of the expense of the stated goal of the product, in turn, making the product less efficient. 

I would bet emissions testing for small engines is a joke now, but not too far off. There have already been attempts to totally ban gas powered tools, in favor of electric. Just moves the pollution somewhere else.


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

1132le said:


> Yoiu dont need to rejet efi
> Thats what efi does its always right on the mark


It certainly should have the ability to always be right. But if it can be programmed to be right, then it can also be programmed to be a little lean. 



> efi produces a stronger flatter torque curve below peak torque ( just what blowers like)
> it starts better
> the gov is instant which makes the 306cc 30 efi feel like a 369cc without efi i tested one vs a non efi
> didnt you say something about have you ever used one before in a prior thread?
> ...


I'd love to try an EFI engine. Improved governor performance would be nice. You can still have electronically-controlled governors with a carb, though, if you want. My little Honda generator has a carb, but a motor-controlled throttle. 

EFI is working very nicely now in cars, and I'm sure that at the outset there was plenty of pushback, carbs are fine, etc. I wouldn't prefer to have the first version of an EFI system, admittedly. But I suspect they'll get better, and work out the kinks. 

Eventually we won't have a choice anyhow. If for some reason you preferred flathead blower engines (or points ignition, or anything else that's been replaced), I suspect you don't have many options at the moment. And if you didn't like OHV when they released (flatheads have been good, etc), I dunno, they seem good to me now. 

And how many threads do we see about carb problems? Leaking, clogged due to degraded gas, etc. If those discussions could be eliminated, that would be nice. Fixing a carb problem is cheap, if you can get a $15 eBay carb, and if you can diagnose the problem, select the right carb, and know how to install it. But that does not represent the bulk of the population. 

And an EFI fix may well be more expensive. And at least for now, there's a battery to maintain. But if EFI problems are less frequent, it might help offset the higher costs when they *do* occur. And I suspect the general public would be happier to have their machines just keep running, even if they don't take all the precautions that people here might. Draining gas at the end of the season, using stabilizer, finding ethanol-free, etc. 

Now, if everything suddenly ran great, it would reduce the number of good deals available to those of us willing to work on them, which would be a bummer!


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

1132le said:


> Yoiu dont need to rejet efi
> Thats what efi does its always right on the mark
> efi produces a stronger flatter torque curve below peak torque ( just what blowers like)
> it starts better
> ...


Uh, no . . . .it's always exactly where they programmed it, and if that is either errant, or some BS forced by the EPA, there is very little ability to adjust . . .

Assuming that the fueling curves in the EFI are optimal is a gross assumption I cannot make . . .


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## 3vanman (Nov 21, 2017)

RedOctobyr said:


> It certainly should have the ability to always be right. But if it can be programmed to be right, then it can also be programmed to be a little lean.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So true. And even a bit worse, "shade tree mechanics" would need to be retrained. Just as the auto mechanic needs to be more of a "technician" to troubleshoot issues, we will eventually see the shift in small engines. Many say they have little impact on the environment, but in reality, the emissions from small engines are becoming more apparent every day.
In the 70's Popular Mechanic Magazine had an article about "returning oil to the ground"...a then acceptable practice...now look at the regulations on waste oil. 
Whether we "want to accept it" or not, one day it will be here...


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

1132le said:


> Yoiu dont need to rejet efi
> Thats what efi does its always right on the mark


it depends on who defines what "the mark" is. Some environut bureaucrat at a desk in DC is going to define it much different that say Reher-Morrison, or me.

A machine with a limited defined application environment won't benefit from EFI.


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## mtblade (Jan 2, 2018)

3vanman said:


> Just as Tecumseh was, now its Briggs, Honda and LCT. We will continue to see the fuel systems change on small engines.
> Auto chokes on small engines were a stop gap fix.
> Emissions compliance is the big thing...and complying. Canada (Ontario) is about to embark on a "minimum 10%" while here in BC we now see as much as 15%.
> We can grumble and fight it, but in 10-15 years or less it will be a reality...just like some of us remember when a 350 was a 350, and it had a 2 or 4 barrel.
> ...





"For us old guys, until they all blow up there will always be a few Snow King engines around..."


Amen !!!!!!!!!!!!


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

RedOctobyr said:


> It certainly should have the ability to always be right. But if it can be programmed to be right, then it can also be programmed to be a little lean.


Define "right".  Being right includes sensors. IAC, Map or MAF, CTS, MAT, O2, and TPS. Adds a lot of complexity. Not to mention 43lbs of fuel pressure, needing an electric fuel pump.




> I'd love to try an EFI engine. Improved governor performance would be nice. You can still have electronically-controlled governors with a carb, though, if you want. My little Honda generator has a carb, but a motor-controlled throttle.


Is governor improvement suffering now? Is this a major problem on small engines? I don't think so. I've never heard of "governor performance". What is that?

All it's doing is metering gas based on what the sensors tell it. Snowblowers, and small engines aren't going to have these complex ECUs and all these sensors. It will be mapped static, what's referred to "OPEN LOOP" in fuel injection terms. So essentially, it is just a complicated carburetor unless they introduce all the sensors.



> EFI is working very nicely now in cars, and I'm sure that at the outset there was plenty of pushback, carbs are fine, etc. I wouldn't prefer to have the first version of an EFI system, admittedly. But I suspect they'll get better, and work out the kinks.


Totally different animal. Apples and oranges. 


> And how many threads do we see about carb problems? Leaking, clogged due to degraded gas, etc. If those discussions could be eliminated, that would be nice. Fixing a carb problem is cheap, if you can get a $15 eBay carb, and if you can diagnose the problem, select the right carb, and know how to install it. But that does not represent the bulk of the population.


If all engines were EFI, how many threads on EFI problems would exist?  tell ya what, I doubt you'd see a 50 year old EFI engine, 50 years from now. 

Injectors clog just like carbs when they aren't treated correctly. 



> And an EFI fix may well be more expensive. And at least for now, there's a battery to maintain. But if EFI problems are less frequent, it might help offset the higher costs when they *do* occur. And I suspect the general public would be happier to have their machines just keep running, even if they don't take all the precautions that people here might. Draining gas at the end of the season, using stabilizer, finding ethanol-free, etc.
> 
> Now, if everything suddenly ran great, it would reduce the number of good deals available to those of us willing to work on them, which would be a bummer!


IF people treat machines the way they treat them today, EFI problems will be as frequent. The only difference is you'll be replacing fuel injectors, instead of carborators. 

I may go back into the Fuel Injection business with all the problems that may arise. 

There's no difference, the engine doesn't know where the fuel is coming from, injection or carb. All it knows is how much fuel and air is there. There's no power difference, no torque difference, no advantage to fuel injection IN THESE ENGINES! 

OK, done whining.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

While I'm on a tirade, another thing to consider. An 8 HP engine would require a 4 LB/HR injector, at 90% duty cycle. If we drop it to 50% duty cycle, it would be about 7.5 lbs/hr. 

That's a VERY VERY small injector. The hole/holes (depending on the design) are going to microscopic. Keep in mind the absolute smallest ones we see in cars are probably 16 lbs or so. 

Those small holes, injectors aren't going to like sitting with gas all summer, and will clog/malfunction. But you'll need a flow bench to know for sure if that's the case. A lot of people will be guessing, and a lot of injectors will be sold as a result.


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## jonnied12 (Jan 14, 2017)

jsup said:


> What's ridiculous, is ethanol in gas reduces mileage/efficiency so you wind up burning more gas, making more emissions, what's the net savings.
> 
> I'm all for getting emissions as low as possible, but not of the expense of the stated goal of the product, in turn, making the product less efficient.
> 
> I would bet emissions testing for small engines is a joke now, but not too far off. There have already been attempts to totally ban gas powered tools, in favor of electric. Just moves the pollution somewhere else.


 They will have to pry those gas powered tools from my cold dead hands!:smile_big:


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

jsup said:


> Define "right".  Being right includes sensors. IAC, Map or MAF, CTS, MAT, O2, and TPS. Adds a lot of complexity. Not to mention 43lbs of fuel pressure, needing an electric fuel pump.


I was letting 1132le define "right". I'm assuming he defined "right" as tuned for max power, vs minimum emissions. 

But if the company setting up the system defined "right" as minimum emissions, then that's what you get. Which was kind of my point. 



> Is governor improvement suffering now? Is this a major problem on small engines? I don't think so. I've never heard of "governor performance". What is that?


I've taken steps to improve the governor performance on my blower. The RPM would sag by several hundred RPM under a load, and the governor still wasn't opening the throttle plate fully (based on watching the throttle with the carb cover removed, while blowing). I re-adjusted the governor a few times, and then replaced the governor spring, which helped, but it still sags some. 

In addition, typical generators exhibit governor sag as the load increases. My Generac service manual had you set the engine for 61.5-63.5 Hz (3690-3810 RPM), as I recall, with no load. As the electrical load increased (not fully- or over-loaded, even just at half-load), the mechanical governor would result in the RPM dropping to more like 60 Hz (3600). 

A really-good governor will at least make the engine *seem* more powerful, as the RPM won't drop at all until the throttle is fully-open. 



> All it's doing is metering gas based on what the sensors tell it. Snowblowers, and small engines aren't going to have these complex ECUs and all these sensors. It will be mapped static, what's referred to "OPEN LOOP" in fuel injection terms. So essentially, it is just a complicated carburetor unless they introduce all the sensors.


Good to know, I'm no expert on these! 



> If all engines were EFI, how many threads on EFI problems would exist?  tell ya what, I doubt you'd see a 50 year old EFI engine, 50 years from now.


I don't know  If you had EFI trouble, and you want your machine to last, maybe you have to replace stuff, same as you might have to do with a gummed/corroded carb. 



> Injectors clog just like carbs when they aren't treated correctly.


I'm going by what I've read about advantages to EFI on these machines. The fact that you don't have to worry about gas going bad and clogging the machine has been mentioned, so I was assuming that was correct. 



> IF people treat machines the way they treat them today, EFI problems will be as frequent. The only difference is you'll be replacing fuel injectors, instead of carborators.


I have no idea what that would cost, or how difficult it would be. But something that's working with a pressurized system seems like it might be more tolerant of some clogging, as it would have some ability to push through it. If it was closed-loop, so the system could detect if it was not getting enough fuel, it could presumably compensate by running the injector longer, to maintain the proper fuel mix, even if less was coming out per-unit-time. 



> There's no difference, the engine doesn't know where the fuel is coming from, injection or carb. All it knows is how much fuel and air is there. There's no power difference, no torque difference, no advantage to fuel injection IN THESE ENGINES!


That's fine. Like I said, I've been simply going by what I've read here. Easier starts, greater power (perceived, at least), etc. I don't have first-hand experience, nor am I familiar with the details of these systems.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

RedOctobyr said:


> I don't know  If you had EFI trouble, and you want your machine to last, maybe you have to replace stuff, same as you might have to do with a gummed/corroded carb.
> 
> I'm going by what I've read about advantages to EFI on these machines. The fact that you don't have to worry about gas going bad and clogging the machine has been mentioned, so I was assuming that was correct.
> 
> .


True. on the first paragraph. 

On the second, injectors DO clog and wear over time. They are, as far as I'm concerned, a long term "maintenance item". 

Even long term storage is not good for an injector. We'd store them with fluid in them to keep them fresh.

An injector is nothing but a solenoid. It's a pintle driven out of a plate with a hole in it. the clearance in that hole is calculated very scientifically. It's not random. Fuel delivery is determined by how long the injector is held open, and how big the hole is. 

There's two ways they get "fouled". 1. the gunk prevents the pintle from moving, or simple clogs the hole/holes. More likely prevents the pintle from moving. 

If it doesn't clog/restrict completely, there's what's called "slew rate" if that gets effected by gunk, it will effect performance. It's the time it takes for the injector to completely open or close. 

Just a random pic from the internet. Look at the fuel path, lots of opportunity for junk to get caught up. Starts at 1, ends at 9.


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## DriverRider (Nov 20, 2016)

When it comes to controlling engine functions electronics are the bomb being able to regulate within fractions of a second as opposed to anything mechanical. Transistorized ignition systems on cars would hold dwell and thus timing under all conditions whereas brand new points based systems would start wearing out the rubbing block as soon as the vehicle left the car carrier at the dealer.

As was stated these simple 1st gen FI systems are non feedback operating in an "open loop" with no O2 sensor and are mapped for current specific conditions.

What happens down the road when/if E15 fuel becomes the norm, your EFI has just been rendered obsolete if there is no software/hardware support for it 10yrs from now for remapping.

As an engine ages and becomes less efficient due to carbon build up on valves and head, lowered compression, blow-by, future fuel blends etc. your air/fuel mix ratio needs to follow this progression. Without an O2 sensor the simple gen 1 system will in itself need some amount of tweaking, are you going to be able to open up your ECM to compensate? The answer being no as it is proprietary.


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## jonnied12 (Jan 14, 2017)

I wonder what kind of training and equipment the dealers are getting to troubleshoot the new fuel injection system?


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

jonnied12 said:


> I wonder what kind of training and equipment the dealers are getting to troubleshoot the new fuel injection system?


How to flash the ECU. How to ohm out an injector. That's about it. The rest is electrical troubleshooting, which can run into hours.


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## Rockhopper10! (Nov 9, 2017)

I have had my new Platinum 24 - SHO - EFI for about a month now - I have had a few decent snowfalls to use it.

Here are my thoughts compared to my old Deluxe 24.

Starting it is no effort whatsoever - at 20 below F - a half a pull it starts.

The Power is great and it throttles up when you hit a drift or the plow bank, rather than bogging down a bit.

The heated grips work OK - when it is really cold they do not put out much heat - which is of course when I need it.

The chute control is a little cumbersome, but I am slowly getting better at using it. It does not rotate as far backwards as my old deluxe 24 - which is annoying in a good NW wind.

Auto Steer is a minor feature for me - no troubles with it, it does a 180 a bit easier - but I don't see it as being a big plus or minus.

Headlight is to be seen - not really to see - I wear a good headlamp and can see fine.

I debated getting it or not over the standard model - as I am dealing with rotator cuff problems - I thought i would go for it.

As of now I love it - hopefully it continues to be reliable.

FYI - at 20 below F - I could not get my old deluxe 24 to start - without running the extension cord out to the shed to use the electric start.

I plan on keeping my old machine as a back up - and it has been a great machine for 15 years or so - but is getting tired.


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## wdavids (Aug 9, 2017)

Is batteryless EFI in the near future? Arctic Cat pioneered it (I think) on snowmobiles in the late 1990s, it seemed to work well, and it would make sense on a simpler machine like a snowblower. I had a 1999 sled equipped with it for a few years, didn't ride much, but it always started with 2-3 pulls (which gave you a good shoulder workout on a 600 cc twin).


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## GoBlowSnow (Sep 4, 2015)

that is the only way I will buy a EFI model is if it is batteryless.


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

How do batteryless systems work? Do they do something like very-quickly charge a capacitor as the flywheel magnets start to spin, and the power the EFI system from that?


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

In doing some quick reading about batteryless EFI, it sounds like yes, they do use the rotation of the flywheel to quickly generate enough power to get the EFI components running. 

Maintaining the battery is probably not the end of the world. But it would definitely be a problem if you had a storm, and the battery had failed or run down. Suddenly you'd be trying to recharge it quickly, so you could clear the driveway. You could keep a spare battery, of course, or something else that can provide ~7V to "jump" it, but those are admittedly a concern that doesn't apply to carbureted machines.


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## nafterclifen (Oct 14, 2015)

I don't so much mind the on-board EFI battery as I do the charging procedure. I wish that they designed the battery/charger so that you could just leave it plugged in, like a battery tender, instead of plugging in every few months for a specific amount of time. That is why I won't buy an EFI model from Ariens right now.


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

Done right, it would self charge when running and only require external charging after long periods of non-use . . . IE charge once in the fall and good all snow season . . .


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

That's certainly my hope for how it works! If it didn't self charge while running, that would be a terrible design. Even commercial users would be having to stop and charge periodically. 

As an aside, I think someone mentioned it's a 7.2V NiMH battery pack. If they used good Low Self-Discharge cells (like Sanyo Eneloops), those only lose something like 10% of their charge after a year. 

If there is no drain while off, then with good cells, there would be little need to even charge between seasons. 

Even if there was some parasitic drain, if you disconnected the pack at the end of the season, you'd probably still be ok when winter rolled around again. Assuming they used LSD cells. If concerned, you could likely buy/build a suitable pack.


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

And I would hope the key would already to that as well. The way folks talk abount what sounds like frequent need to charge makes me wonder how it works . . . . it could either be no self charge, or folks not turning the key off when not in use letting the battery drain . . .


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## wdavids (Aug 9, 2017)

I always assumed batteryless EFI relied on a capacitor, but am not positive.


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## WinterOfDiscontent (Jan 24, 2018)

According to the owner's manual, the battery is charged when the engine is running, as long as the engine speed is set to Efficiency or higher.

The battery only requires manual charging when brand new and during long-term storage (every 90 days).

I just have my phone's calendar app poke me every 13th Saturday. 

Probably not a big deal for most people, unless you don't have a convenient electrical outlet near where you store your snowblower over the summer.


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

Good info, thanks. But the battery can also be removed, and charged/stored indoors, correct? Or did I misunderstand that aspect?


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## WinterOfDiscontent (Jan 24, 2018)

Yeah, you'd think they'd have designed it for easy battery removal, but they didn't. 

Instead, the charging procedure is to unplug the battery connector from the machine, plug it into the charger, and plug the charger into an AC outlet.


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## Ariens hydro pro (Jan 24, 2014)

I don't know anything about EFI on a snowblower. I have EFI on my tractor. That's OK with me because it has a 12V battery under the seat. I would hate to remember that a battery on a snowblower needs to be charged for it to start. 
Maybe they will design it to be as simple as changing the batteries on a flash light, with a simple plug to charge it between battery changes.


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

It sounds like that unless you don't run it for months, you don't have to charge it to start . . . . pretty much like any current vehicle that always has some small battery drain, coupled with normal battery self discharge. Sounds like a non-issue to me . . . . charge it a month or so prior to snow season when it's easy to do, and then good for the season . . .


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## GoBlowSnow (Sep 4, 2015)

I fear that come 2 years from now when all the warranties expire on the machines purchased this year and last, we'll start seeing a ton of posts saying the batteries are bad and won't hold a charge anymore.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

GoBlowSnow said:


> I fear that come 2 years from now when all the warranties expire on the machines purchased this year and last, we'll start seeing a ton of posts saying the batteries are bad and won't hold a charge anymore.


Or all my connections got rotted, how do I fix it.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

RedOctobyr said:


> That's certainly my hope for how it works! If it didn't self charge while running, that would be a terrible design. Even commercial users would be having to stop and charge periodically.
> 
> As an aside, I think someone mentioned it's a 7.2V NiMH battery pack. If they used good Low Self-Discharge cells (like Sanyo Eneloops), those only lose something like 10% of their charge after a year.
> 
> ...





WinterOfDiscontent said:


> According to the owner's manual, the battery is charged when the engine is running, as long as the engine speed is set to Efficiency or higher.
> 
> The battery only requires manual charging when brand new and during long-term storage (every 90 days).
> 
> ...





RedOctobyr said:


> Good info, thanks. But the battery can also be removed, and charged/stored indoors, correct? Or did I misunderstand that aspect?





WinterOfDiscontent said:


> Yeah, you'd think they'd have designed it for easy battery removal, but they didn't.
> 
> Instead, the charging procedure is to unplug the battery connector from the machine, plug it into the charger, and plug the charger into an AC outlet.





tadawson said:


> It sounds like that unless you don't run it for months, you don't have to charge it to start . . . . pretty much like any current vehicle that always has some small battery drain, coupled with normal battery self discharge. Sounds like a non-issue to me . . . . charge it a month or so prior to snow season when it's easy to do, and then good for the season . . .


I don't have to worry about any of that with a carb.


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

Honestly, while that would be annoying, it would probably be preferable to a more involved/expensive EFI failure. Batteries are comparatively easy to replace, and shouldn't be too expensive. 

Better yet, if they're just a 7.2V NiMH pack, you could buy just about any 6-cell (7.2V) NiMH pack, and use that. Either as a spare/backup, or as a replacement, etc. I think I saw a picture of the battery or charger somewhere, showing a Tamiya plug? If it's a standard plug like that one, then many packs would have the same connector, giving more choices. A picture of the charger's plug would answer the question. 

WinterOfDiscontent said the battery is not easy to remove, sadly. But once it was removed, perhaps it could be mounted differently when reinstalled, to make it easier to remove again in the future. That would at least make it easier to keep charged, if the machine lives far from an outlet. 

PS- For electrical connectors, dielectric grease could be added to the contacts to help protect them from corrosion.


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## WinterOfDiscontent (Jan 24, 2018)

jsup said:


> I don't have to worry about any of that with a carb.


True! On the other hand, if I avoided buying a product simply because I needed to charge its battery from time to time, I'd have to do without most of my favorite toys!


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

WinterOfDiscontent said:


> True! On the other hand, if I avoided buying a product simply because I needed to charge its battery from time to time, I'd have to do without most of my favorite toys!




I agree. But the analogy is not apt. 

No one has provided any good reason for EFI on a SNOWBLOWER. None. 

Other than the coolness factor, and we'll be there one day anyway. That's all I can say EFI proponents have.


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

jsup said:


> Or all my connections got rotted, how do I fix it.


Hopefully they used good sealed connectors, but time will tell. Unless the blower is used in salt slop, clean snow melt should not hurt much, but man, could salt wreak havoc . . .

And I'm fine with carbs as well . . . I just find the discussion about the EFI implementation interesting, considering that the EPA may well one day change small engine regs in such a way to pretty much mandate it, sadly . . .


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## don7 (Dec 15, 2016)

To say there are no benefits is a stretch. I'll give my perspective. This is my second season with a platinum 24 efi, purchased locally. No issues and I haven't had to charge the battery yet, it held a charge all summer. I don't expect any off drain because you turn the key to kill the motor...I guess if you turned key back you may have a problem. In any event, it's 2018 and things run on batteries that need to be maintained. If you can replace a carb you can charge or replace a battery. 

As far as efi benefits, rpm is MUCH more stable under load resulting in more available power when you need it. Agree or not, but it's night and day compared to carb models I've used. Having electronic throttle dial on the panel is very nice. Instant throttle response while blowing and I use often to change my speed in use, particularly when making a 180 degree turn to slow down. Those two benefits are pretty major for me compared to carb models. Oh, and starting is no longer a routine that needs to be followed. Turn the key and pull. Starting a carb model is not rocket science, but efi is a breeze. And lastly, whether it's due to efi or not, I do not smell like exhaust fumes when I'm done. I used to hate coming in smelling like a snowblower. For whatever reason, this appears to have a very clean exhaust which is huge. 

Regarding new tech, I no longer use a gas leaf blower in the summer -- battery powered only. Going on 3rd or 4th year. It's fine to be reluctant to buy new tech -- there is risk with any purchase. But it's not as dire as some make it sound. Plus, it's not like carb snowblowers are perfect lol. 

As far as longevity, I would not doubt an efi blower could last 20 years. I have a 5 yr warranty which should be enough to get kinks worked out if a major issue. So why not go 20 years if maintained? Electronics are likely not the weak link unless there is a design or manufacturing flaw. If I made it two seasons I'm sure I can make many more. I drive a car that is 14 years old and it's a lot more complex and unserviceable. So seems EFI snowblower are not overly aggressive on the technology front.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

don7 said:


> To say there are no benefits is a stretch. I'll give my perspective. This is my second season with a platinum 24 efi, purchased locally. No issues and I haven't had to charge the battery yet, it held a charge all summer. I don't expect any off drain because you turn the key to kill the motor...I guess if you turned key back you may have a problem. In any event, it's 2018 and things run on batteries that need to be maintained. If you can replace a carb you can charge or replace a battery.
> 
> As far as efi benefits, rpm is MUCH more stable under load resulting in more available power when you need it. Agree or not, but it's night and day compared to carb models I've used. Having electronic throttle dial on the panel is very nice. Instant throttle response while blowing and I use often to change my speed in use, particularly when making a 180 degree turn to slow down. Those two benefits are pretty major for me compared to carb models. Oh, and starting is no longer a routine that needs to be followed. Turn the key and pull. Starting a carb model is not rocket science, but efi is a breeze. And lastly, whether it's due to efi or not, I do not smell like exhaust fumes when I'm done. I used to hate coming in smelling like a snowblower. For whatever reason, this appears to have a very clean exhaust which is huge.
> 
> ...


Anecdotal and conjecture. You can't take your desire for it to be better, because you paid more for it, out of the reality of it being better. It's human nature. Someone spends 3 months researching a car, they're going to say it's the best thing every, because they are invested in it. 

The electronic throttle is cool, it's essentially a TPS, but really, how often to you need to change throttle settings when blowing? IDK, I rarely touch the throttle. Just when going up the basket ramp, I slow it down.


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## don7 (Dec 15, 2016)

"Anecdotal and conjecture" ? Sorry, but I can't make a statement like "EFI is what creates antigravity so my snowblower can fly".

The benefits are real, and to claim I'm making them up because I paid more is pretty silly. I was not questioning or agonizing over the the extra $300 then or now. 

Do you have an electronic throttle right by your hand? Because if you don't, that may be one reason you don't use it.

I would have bought a 24" hydro if they had. The throttle gets me a psuedo hydro because I can change speed without switching gears. So yeah, it's a real benefit. As is easier starting. And rpm not dropping under load.

It sounds like a "human nature" may actually be kicking in on your end by claiming no benefit and then denying benefits when someone states them....


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

don7 said:


> "Anecdotal and conjecture" ? Sorry, but I can't make a statement like "EFI is what creates antigravity so my snowblower can fly".


Sure ya can. 



> The benefits are real, and to claim I'm making them up because I paid more is pretty silly. I was not questioning or agonizing over the the extra $300 then or now.


I never said you made them up, and I apologize if it came across that way. I am saying that when people buy a new shiny toy, myself included, it's always "the best thing ever". 



> Do you have an electronic throttle right by your hand? Because if you don't, that may be one reason you don't use it.


I don't use it, and in 20 years of blowing snow, only needed to adjust the throttle a handful of times, and I'm just saying that to cover myself. 



> I would have bought a 24" hydro if they had. The throttle gets me a psuedo hydro because I can change speed without switching gears. So yeah, it's a real benefit. As is easier starting. And rpm not dropping under load.


There's a lot of people here whose carbed engines start with one pull. I don't think pushing a primer bulb and moving a choke lever is that big a deal, but that's me. 



> It sounds like a "human nature" may actually be kicking in on your end by claiming no benefit and then denying benefits when someone states them....


Maybe.


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## russ01915 (Dec 18, 2013)

Shouldn't a motor be run at full speed at all times while using? Because you give an engine more gas, it doesn't make it a "psuedo hydro". Far from it. Engine doesn't equal a transmission. Furthermore, a smaller motor with EFI doen't equal a bigger carb motor with more torque.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

russ01915 said:


> Shouldn't a motor be run at full speed at all times while using? Because you give an engine more gas, it doesn't make it a "psuedo hydro". Far from it. Engine doesn't equal a transmission. Furthermore, a smaller motor with EFI doen't equal a bigger carb motor with more torque.


Well put.


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## russ01915 (Dec 18, 2013)

If they put an ECU on board along with sensors and power sources that don't need recharging then I would consider.With an ECU and sensors, the engine will run at optimum efficiency and reduce pollution. The problem becomes trouble shooting, diagnosing,weatherproofing electronics, and the cost. This technology(EFi) will evolve in the near future on small engines, just not now.


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

How about those of us who have a mechanical throttle right by our hand? I can't recall the last time I used a machine that didn't . . . that's in no way unique to EFI . . .

I'll not disagee that EFI has it's advantages, it just that that isn't one of them . . . (albeit a lot of companies have cheaped and stopped putting throttle on the console . . . )


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## don7 (Dec 15, 2016)

In general, yes -- you run at full throttle if you need full throttle. But the blower is meant to run stable under reduced load. The dial has an "Eco Mode" or similar region on the dial where Ariens recommends using if snow load is small to Dave gas,reduce noise, etc. My other blower ran best at full throttle or min throttle. This one has what appears to be a pretty linear / high resolution curve from min to max and it throws snow fine in "Eco Mode" levels, especially if I'm in a situation where I momentarily need to slow down in an area that is tough to navigate. That's probably my favorite feature since you can't shift to a lower gear on the fly with disc transmission without risking wear out.

In terms of starting, I never had a problem in the past starting a carb but usually had to make a choke adjustment about 30s after starting depending on weather. Not having to mess with that is nice and is really lumped in with the other throttle control benefits mentioned earlier. EFI takes all the manual adjustments out of the picture and does a better job controlling than operator could ever do -- whether worth money or not is up to individual.


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## russ01915 (Dec 18, 2013)

don7 said:


> EFI takes all the manual adjustments out of the picture and does a better job controlling than operator could ever do -- whether worth money or not is up to individual.


 You still have to manually turn the knob to set engine speed?


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

How else? Full speed all the time would be wrong most of the time, and the equipment isn't telepathic . . . 

? ? ? ?


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## russ01915 (Dec 18, 2013)

Sorry to disagree, full throttle all the time is the best. Engine speed controls impeller speed.


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## DriverRider (Nov 20, 2016)

russ01915 said:


> Shouldn't a motor be run at full speed at all times while using?


Umm No. There are folks that fear their engine will over heat or burn up from lack of lubrication.:angel: Historically, small gas engines have been governed to run anywhere between 2850RPM to 3450RPM on any particular new machine with the top 3600RPM for generator use.

Many threads here with owners reporting less than 3600RPM on their new machines and think it is defective so they crank it up, umm No fact is that was set/specified by the equipment manufacturer and new machines do not vary wildly RPM wise all over the map within a manufacturers particular model. 

The engine manufacturers all get their torque power and horse power ratings from dyno testing which includes RPM of less than 3k, slightly above 3k and 3600 which was the old standard for years and I will take a WAG these engines do not self destruct on the dyno getting their maximum values at less than 3600.:wink2:

From a recent Honda thread straight from the horses mouth.
http://www.snowblowerforum.com/forum/1434018-post143.html


This specifies how OEM's will pick and determine governed speed for a production run on their particular piece of equipment.
http://www.briggsandstratton.com/au...on/WarrantyResources/AssemblyInstructions.pdf

Just sayin you can generally run any speed within reason for conditions below max


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## don7 (Dec 15, 2016)

Full throttle all the time may be best for you, but it works fine at lower throttles. And in my original context, I said momentarily slowing down when turning etc. So to say it's best to turn a snow blower at max throttle doesn't cover all usage scenarios. Although I have inadvertantly cleared snow at less than full throttle and didn't even realize it because it worked fine.

And taking the comment that snow clearing at max throttle is best, sure -- if best equates to loudest, most gas, and maximum throwing distance. I don't need that all the time. 

I drive a 4 cylinder and rarely use at maximum throttle. Lawn mower is at max though. Why? Because I want maximum suction if bagging or maximum rotations if mulching. There is no reason for me to run at maximum performance with snow blowing all the time unless machine is overloaded or can't throw snow far enough. In which case yes, then I would run at full throttle for straight away, etc. But when turning, I'll continue to feather the knob as desired. 

One may think Ariens made "Eco" mode as a sales gimmick but they probably never used one or have too much snow to clear.


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## russ01915 (Dec 18, 2013)

Maybe I'm wrong but if you have the engine at full throttle, the governor will adjust to loads. also, my generator has idle control. When it senses a load it will increase the throttle automatically. Are we even talking about the same thing here.

What I was saying is when using the machine, keep the throttle wide open and the governor will adjust the speed of the engine.


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## DriverRider (Nov 20, 2016)

russ01915 said:


> Maybe I'm wrong but if you have the engine at full throttle, the governor will adjust to loads. also, my generator has idle control. When it senses a load it will increase the throttle automatically. Are we even talking about the same thing here.
> 
> What I was saying is when using the machine, keep the throttle wide open and the governor will adjust the speed of the engine.


And if you put the throttle at 3/4's a governor will not react to loads and hold an RPM? Patently false.


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

russ01915 said:


> Sorry to disagree, full throttle all the time is the best. Engine speed controls impeller speed.


Precisely the reason to dial it back at times. Engines and blowers have max rpm limits . . . 
I've yet to see a minimum, and the engines certainly don't care . . . Try throwing snow where the only choice is right into the wind at full tilt . . . . ugly! Throttle down, chute angle lower, does a geat job and you get so much less back in the face.


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## russ01915 (Dec 18, 2013)

People think they're babying something running it at half or 3/4 throttle and all that's happening is a lot of carbon buildup.


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

russ01915 said:


> People think they're babying something running it at half or 3/4 throttle and all that's happening is a lot of carbon buildup.


And not killing yourself with all the snow that might be blowing back at you! 40 years running rarely at full, and never had a carboned up engine! Speed and load are loosely coupled at best . . . .


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## russ01915 (Dec 18, 2013)

if you are blowing into the wind, adjust you chute defector to shoot low.


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## DriverRider (Nov 20, 2016)

russ01915 said:


> People think they're babying something running it at half or 3/4 throttle and all that's happening is a lot of carbon buildup.


You disagree with Honda no problem here. Maybe you should bring a class action suit against Honda claiming misinformed/misleading operating ranges which progresses to carbon on the head and get reimbursement for everyone who had a breakdown as a result of such false advertising.:smile2:


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## russ01915 (Dec 18, 2013)

who has a honda?


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## DriverRider (Nov 20, 2016)

Ok, I now see your OHV's are not Honda clones but are a design unto themselves.:icon-rolleyes:


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

russ01915 said:


> if you are blowing into the wind, adjust you chute defector to shoot low.


Not enough. Power reduction *MANDATORY* despite opposition from the peanut gallery . . .

Define an actual, manufacturer documented problem or reason behind your claim, and I might care . . . . otherwise, all I hear is a single opinion with no basis (as likely you view mine). My basis is, however, having never found any physical or written evidence not to run at reduced throttle . . . It just works, and routinely having gear that is 20+ years old, I think my record speaks for itself. Too rich produces carbon, not part throttle . . .


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## Dauntae (Nov 10, 2016)

Only thing I could say about low throttle is not as much oil being splashed around as there is no oil pump but if it works out for you, Glad it works well for your needs, I personally like and in a few areas sort of need to throw it as far as I can, Mostly on the sidewalk as the plows tend to bury it pretty bad and if I don't launch it into my yard somewhat it tends to just end up back on the sidewalk so full throttle sending it to the next zipcode for me.


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

I have cases for both. Note also that lower throttle means slower/less sliding surfaces, so things balance out . . . Just having to drive snow occasionally windward on an ugly day leaves little choice . . . The higher/harder you throw it, the more comes back . . .


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## don7 (Dec 15, 2016)

Agreed -- saying one needs to run at full throttle because of carbon build up sounds like urban legend. I'll take my chances and hope it kills my engine in year number 5 of my warranty vs year number 6 when it's on my dime.

And I never said carbs can't run at lower throttles. Instead I said it's easier to dial it down with EFI because it's a dial on the dash. It was claimed that was wrong to do, a marketing gimmick, and that I should run at max throttle. Do you just floor your gas pedal and slam on the brakes? Lol - some people do.

And running at 75% at times isn't "babying", it's proper use of a tool by people that understand more isn't always better. And there are many reasons to do so as discussed. That said, EFI let's me change throttle now more than I used too...a "benefit" if you will.


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

My only comment to yours on EFI and throttle on the dash is that all my carbureted engines also have throttle on the console. Lever instear of knob, but just as simple and useful . . . IE that feature isn't unique to EFI, nor should EFI purchase be needed to get it.

And if the air/fuel mixture is correct, you don't create carbon at any load or speed . . . high speed/load only helps if the engine is screwed up and already made carbon and you are trying to burn it out . . . giving outstanding reasons to not jet/tune too rich!


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## don7 (Dec 15, 2016)

That's true -- any throttle on the dash goes a long way. It's just not really done any more, or not as common. My lawnmower has throttle on dash as well -- Upper position on lever is choke. Efi is obviously more than just throttle on the dash, but as far as new Ariens line goes, EFI is the path to getting the remote throttle.


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## russ01915 (Dec 18, 2013)

It sounds to me that you guys are trying to justify the extra money you spent on EFi. It's like people saying my xxxxx is better than yours because I paid xxxx more than you.


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## russ01915 (Dec 18, 2013)

Please explain this graph for me.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

russ01915 said:


> Please explain this graph for me.


Wrong carb. Re-jet the carb and re-run the test, or get the right carb.

Second explanation- Marketing Bull droppings. 

I spend some time consulting in the high performance automotive field. I was SHOCKED by how much false information is out there. How many tests are rigged for the desired outcome of the marketing department. 

Something as simple as swapping an oil pan, and over filling one, could result in as much as 50HP in a high HP engine. Pull the timing back a little, whatever it takes to get the desired result. 

I can say with metaphysical certainty, there is ZERO difference in HP and Torque when the carb and EFI are both dialed in correctly.


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## russ01915 (Dec 18, 2013)

That graph is from Ariens .


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

russ01915 said:


> That graph is from Ariens .


I know. So what? They don't have a marketing department and have a vested interest in the outcome?

Remember, stock carbs are not built for peak performance. 

What it shows that when EFI is mapped correctly that's the power curve. If you want Apples to Apples, get the right carb on there.


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## russ01915 (Dec 18, 2013)

So besides from supposedly easier cold starting, lower fuel consumption, and lower emissions, there is no difference in torque. The EFi just responds quicker to load demands?


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

russ01915 said:


> So besides from supposedly easier cold starting, lower fuel consumption, and lower emissions, there is no difference in torque. The EFi just responds quicker to load demands?


I don't know if any of that is true. If you want to see if there are benefits to EFI, look at a place where money is no object. Racing. With unlimited budgets, people are still running carbs. There is a move going right now to EFI, some have been doing it for years, but if it were a 100% guaranteed edge over the competition, 100% of people racing would be doing it, at the high end. People who drop $70,000 on an engine high end racing. 

If it does react more quickly to loads, that just points that there's room for a better design for carb load system design.

But let me ask this. How big a problem is it for the snow blowing community, if there is a lag in response under load. I've read a lot of things here, but I have not seen a single thread on improving throttle response, and if were such a big problem, I'd expect to see a lot of questions on it. This is an example of taking a marketing position dubious benefit, and promoting it as truth. It's a solution in search of a problem, as far as I can see.


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## russ01915 (Dec 18, 2013)

It appears to me that the small engine industry is under pressure to reduce emissions.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

russ01915 said:


> It appears to me that the small engine industry is under pressure to reduce emissions.


Yes. That is 100% true. But like most regulations, it's a solution in search of a problem. To me, and I LOVE fuel injection, it's paid a lot of my bills in the past, for small engines, EFI isn't necessary. ESPECIALLY snow blowers. 

Doesn't mean it isn't going to happen.


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## don7 (Dec 15, 2016)

"It sounds to me that you guys are trying to justify the extra money you spent on EFi. It's like people saying my xxxxx is better than yours because I paid xxxx more than you.'

Why do you keep coming back to money? I never questioned or missed the extra $300. You seem to be really hung up on it though. 

Carburetors obviously work and no one said they don't. Or that all engines with a carb are now useless. That would be a silly thing to say. But you are turning that around and claiming there are no benefits of EFI. Which is equally silly, and wrong.


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## don7 (Dec 15, 2016)

Snowblower vs racing car... interesting. Or how about the automobile industry at large? Is anyone driving around in their 21st century daily driver wishing they had a carburetor? Thinking that their Nova from the 70's was the pinnacle of engine technology and it's all been down hill or no better?

No one is saying snowblowers need EFI. Heck, if we wanted to we could argue that a snowblower altogether has no benefits compared to a shovel. Which is true in some cases.

I'm countering the claim that EFI offers no benefits -- I'm not saying EFI is a necessity. If you have better things to spend the extra money on then that's what you should do.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

don7 said:


> Snowblower vs racing car...


You read the comparison wrong. I wasn't comparing a snowblower to a race car, I was comparing a situation where money is no object and there are choices. Where the object is to win at all costs. Most people choose a carb. If EFI were "better" for their small operational window, they'd choose it. To be fair, more and more are choosing it because they can run stages, more than anything else. You can put multiple sets of injectors in one engine to run different fuels, or come in at different times. That is a clear racing advantage, and that's why you see it.



> Or how about the automobile industry at large? Is anyone driving around in their 21st century daily driver wishing they had a carburetor? Thinking that their Nova from the 70's was the pinnacle of engine technology and it's all been down hill or no better?


Apples and oranges. Not an apt comparison. Snowblowers don't run on a 103* degree in August up hill, under load, at different elevations. And then of course in the winter down hill at light load.

A Snowblower runs under a very small window of defined circumstances, that are known. You're not going to be blowing snow in 50 degrees, 90, degees, etc... under different loads and altitudes. 

EFI is great because vehicles typically have varied circumstances they run under all year long. Boat ramps, and ski lifts.



> No one is saying snowblowers need EFI. Heck, if we wanted to we could argue that a snowblower altogether has no benefits compared to a shovel. Which is true in some cases.


I'm saying it. Snowblowers don't need EFI from a practical standpoint.



> I'm countering the claim that EFI offers no benefits -- I'm not saying EFI is a necessity. If you have better things to spend the extra money on then that's what you should do.


EFI offers benefits, of course. But with those benefits come detriments in the form of complexity, expense, and inherent points of failure. I think that those factors out weigh the benefits in this particular situation.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

don7 said:


> Why do you keep coming back to money? I never questioned or missed the extra $300. You seem to be really hung up on it though.
> 
> Carburetors obviously work and no one said they don't. Or that all engines with a carb are now useless. That would be a silly thing to say. But you are turning that around and claiming there are no benefits of EFI. Which is equally silly, and wrong.


Don't take it personally. 

You said you made a decision based on the machine that was available. And that's fine. 

I think there's a lot of marketing hype about EFI, and that's all it is, marketing hype. Again, being practical, it is really not necessary in THIS application. 

Like I said before, when this becomes wide spread, I'll get back in the EFI business. I'll just be the source for all things EFI when the stuff breaks.  Someone will have to do it, I may as well corner the market.


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## russ01915 (Dec 18, 2013)

Don7, could you please explain the graph that I posted. Also, I don't keep bringing up the money. I want to understand all the benefits of EFi


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## don7 (Dec 15, 2016)

Actually temperature range that snowblowers run in is not trivial. My blower ran differently depending on temp / humidity. If you want to argue that I'm not going to. And I expect that to be gone with efi, and so far it is.

I really don't get the race car vs consumer car vs snowblower. What does maximum performance have to do with anything? And where is your data that a carb will always beat fuel injection just because of racing industry? You are drawing correlations that are not necessarily linked.

If "sky was the limit" (and it is NOT in racing contrary to what you say) I would not look for the engine that had a carb -- I would look at the whole system. Ranging from tools, engineering capability, complexity, reliability, speed of repair, trade-offs, etc. You can't look at any single design choice in a racing car and conclude it's "better" than any other solution. Flat out wrong from a system engineering perspective.

But snowblowers hardly fall in that category. Most consumers don't want to tune their engine. Fine, you can tune your carb and beat an EFI snowblower in a snow contest. Okay, let's get an engineer familiar with their EFI system and have them tune it to beat your carb. Then it's apples to apples.

For the average consumer, EFI beats carbs hands down. All other cases for tinkeres, gear heads, people that like to prime engines, set choke, start, let it idle, adjust choke again -- etc...enjoy!


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

don7 said:


> Actually temperature range that snowblowers run in is not trivial. My blower ran differently depending on temp / humidity. If you want to argue that I'm not going to. And I expect that to be gone with efi, and so far it is.


I'm not arguing. Just presenting a position.



> I really don't get the race car vs consumer car vs snowblower. What does maximum performance have to do with anything? And where is your data that a carb will always beat fuel injection just because of racing industry? You are drawing correlations that are not necessarily linked.


It's ok. Maybe my explanation isn't finding its way from my brain to the keyboard. 



> If "sky was the limit" (and it is NOT in racing contrary to what you say) I would not look for the engine that had a carb -- I would look at the whole system. Ranging from tools, engineering capability, complexity, reliability, speed of repair, trade-offs, etc. You can't look at any single design choice in a racing car and conclude it's "better" than any other solution. Flat out wrong from a system engineering perspective.


I was being over simplistic, but yes, you are correct. 



> But snowblowers hardly fall in that category. Most consumers don't want to tune their engine. Fine, you can tune your carb and beat an EFI snowblower in a snow contest. Okay, let's get an engineer familiar with their EFI system and have them tune it to beat your carb. Then it's apples to apples.


 The consumer wouldn't have to tune a carb, if it's designed correctly. 



> For the average consumer, EFI beats carbs hands down. All other cases for tinkeres, gear heads, people that like to prime engines, set choke, start, let it idle, adjust choke again -- etc...enjoy!


I think the advantages are more imagined than real, I think the total costs of ownership will go UP with EFI. Time will tell.


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