# Ariens vs Honda (need some advice for my particular situation)



## bertbarndoor

Hi, just curious on thoughts on which machine would/should do the job. I had kind of narrowed it down to the Ariens Platinum 24 SHO or the 30 SHO, but then I started considering Honda (24” HSS724CTD or 28” HSS928CTD). Honda mostly because of the electric deflector shoot control. There are a few constraints at my location which make some of the options more attractive than others… Sorry for the length, I wanted to describe the situation.

First, I live on Ottawa, Canada. Also, I’m mid 40’s and not getting any younger. We can get a lot of snow up here. All kinds of snow. Wet snow. Ice. Deep. Etc. Also, it can get pretty cold and windy up here. For about 3 solid months each year. The electric hand grips on the Ariens would be nice, but if the Honda is sooo much better, I can keep using hot pocket hand warmers on the cold cold days.

The clearing area that I have to remove snow from feels large to me. It consists of a long single lane driveway about 10 by 120 feet and a parking area which is about 40 feet by 60 feet. (3600 sq ft total if anyone is counting). The mouth of the driveway, where it meets the road, needs to be kept very wide (~20 feet) due to shallow entry and exit angles available when cars are parked on the street across from the driveway exit. This requires some attention to the heavy packed snow when the plow comes by. The driveway has an incline of about 10 degrees or so. This has made it difficult sometimes getting traction going up the hill, even with chains on the tires of my old machine.

Speaking of my old machine, it is a Yardworks (MTD?). 30” 360cc. The power seemed to get the job done, but it wouldn’t do well with wet snow. First on the quality, I had a few cables snap along the way. A few cheap plastic parts broke, the headlight fell off. The shear pins didn’t work and it ate a rock and twisted the auger blades. (edit: I should add that I did not maintain the auger or axle by greasing it as I should have. This likely contributed or may even have caused my auger issues, aside from running over the huge rock). Ultimately the front axel broke (which is why I am looking for a new unit). It worked pretty well for 8 years. I could never get the deflector to stay exactly where I wanted it to which meant snow was always going where I didn’t want it to go—particularly annoying. I would dial the corkscrew to where I wanted the shoot and when I let go of the corkscrew, it would always ‘fall’ a half-turn which would make the deflector shoot move a bit as well. Basically I could never fully control where I wanted the snow to go exactly. That’s why the Honda electric deflector control seems so cool.

I am in a downtown urban location where there isn’t a lot of room to pile the snow. Consequently, I have survived by spreading the snow out around the property. The driveway snow would mostly go on either side where the road is. Half the parking area snow would go in the back corner of the lot, while the other half would go on the other side. Again, the need to be somewhat precise with where the snow goes makes the Honda electric deflector control attractive, particularly if it works. I am somewhat leery of the Ariens joystick. It doesn’t look like it has a lot of ‘micro’ control.

So, thoughts anyone? The price on the Honda is 2x or 3x, but could it be worth it? It seems like I have a larger job than most and I find each winter is taking more and more out of me. I’m starting to wonder if I need a better tool. I know the Ariens will be an improvement, just wondering if it goes far enough. Thanks for any help and opinions.


----------



## .110081

I was in the exact same boat as you and for the same reasons. I live in Newfoundland so we get our fair share of very wet snow. I decided on the 24 SHO due to the engine size and the snow output of the ariens is almost double the Honda (based on the specs) and the price was alot more attractive. Another reason was the Ariens was no payment no interest for 12 months here in canada and my dealer threw in a winter coat, drift cutters, and 2 years of extra warranty (5 yrs total) all for $2399 for the Ariens 24" Platinum SHO vs $3999 for the Honda HSS724ACTD. The Honda only got a 198cc engine vs the 369cc on the Ariens. But each have their pros and cons.....both are good machines


----------



## JnC

If you have the budget then get the Yamaha, especially knowing that you CAN have it being that you are in Canada.


----------



## unknown1

That's a great post! I especially like the data on the MTD instead of innuendo. It's too late now but are you certain the augers weren't rusted onto the shafts due to lack of maintenance or maybe using the wrong shear bolts? It's now irrelevant for you but it would be good additional data if you have it to be fair to MTD and in case people draw the wrong conclusion about MTD and their auger protection. Not everyone can afford the top brands. (often stated as Ariens, Honda, Husqvarna(?), Toro(?) and Yamaha in alphabetical order).
I'm looking forward to hearing the answers for your scenario and the rationale behind them.


----------



## unknown1

Just looking at the physics of your scenario. You seem to be interested in two critical things..
1) Attacking uncooperative heavy snow left by the plows at the end of your drive
2) Long accurate throwing range to clear that 40'x60' area without needing to double-do.
Both of these tend to suggest to me that you need a machine with a high power-to-bucket-width ratio or power-to-bucket-area ratio. 
Each could be important depending on snow depth and whether it fills the whole bucket height or not.
A DIY impeller kit to tighten up the tolerances would help with the range and heavier snow but I don't know how that affects warranties.


----------



## nwcove

as said in another post......have a good look at a yamaha. if i had to choose between what you are considering, and add a yamaha to the list, the yamaha would win . ( i do have two ariens, both great machines.......ones 50 years old )


----------



## unknown1

I just looked up these models to see how they compare from a pure physics perspective.
Unfortunately several models did not give bucket height so I concentrated on power per width.
Also the Woodsman Canadian Honda models give a HP rating but the USA Ariens ratings give cc. http://woodsmanequipment.com/snowblowers/honda-hss724ctd-snowblower.html
To go from CC to HP I used the conversion tables from here cc to torque to hp Conversion Update! - MovingSnow.com 
Finally I used today's exchange rates for CA/USA dollars at 0.8 because the Ariens prices I found were USD
I did not include Yamaha because I had no models to work with
Unless I made errors, The Ariens give higher power per inch and are simultaneously lower priced.
Your criteria may be different and I did not try to take account of "bling" factor.
Obviously, the narrower the machine.. the more trips you will need for a given clearance area. 

I then went a step further and calculated "Bang per Buck" which I defined as Power-per-Inch-per-Dollar

EDIT: Do those Ariens really have such bigger engines? 
I'm a bit worried about the cc to HP conversion but I showed you where I got them from so you can fact-check if you wish. 

EDIT: Added Toro Powermax per 69ariens


----------



## 69ariens

My vote would be for the 30 " Ariens out of the ones you picked. Now the monkey comes in, take a very close look at the toro oxe 1028 or even better if you find a leftover 1128.


----------



## unknown1

The whole business of HP versus CC versus Torque is unfortunately a mess. If you read the information in that conversion link you will see why.

Per Woodsman: http://woodsmanequipment.com/snowblowers/honda-hss724ctd-snowblower.html

The Honda 724 is claimed to be 7HP but is apparently 198cc. using the conversion table this would make it only 5.5 to 6 HP
The Honda 928 is claimed to be 9HP but is apparently 270cc. using the conversion table this would make it only 7 to 8 HP

I gave Honda the benefit of the doubt and used their *claimed *HP ratings to maximize their results in the spreadsheet.
If I was being totally scientific I would have used the cc numbers instead and the Honda results would be *worse *than the ones mentioned in the spreadsheet. 
Since Honda were already coming in with the lowest rank there didn't seem to be any extra relative information to be gained by pushing their numbers lower. (power-per-inch and bang-for-buck).

BTW that spreadsheet in post #7 now includes the Toros suggested by 69ariens
If anyone wants to be specific about Yamaha models or any other models I will add them too.


----------



## Dauntae

That spread sheet has some good info but one thing I find funny (nothing to do with the spread sheet, that's great) But in the older days it seemed they used MUCH lower HP than the new machines. IMHO we don't really need as much as we want, Good example is the Toro 521.... It started as the 3521 then the 421 then the 521. I had all 3 at one time not too long ago but two were sold but all 3 were good machines and did there job, But people always want more so they sell us more but the 3521 did the job just fine, But back then if you had a snow blower you learned how to maintain it and keep it running right because then it was a expence not all could afford, Now it's a disposable society I guess so if you don't maintain it and keep it running right and running less than optimal it may still move snow and are cheap enough to just replace. Although I myself DO like putting the snow in the next county when I clear my driveway LOL.


----------



## unknown1

Dauntae said:


> That spread sheet has some good info but one thing I find funny (nothing to do with the spread sheet, that's great) But in the older days it seemed they used MUCH lower HP than the new machines. IMHO we don't really need as much as we want, Good example is the Toro 521.... It started as the 3521 then the 421 then the 521. I had all 3 at one time not too long ago but two were sold but all 3 were good machines and did there job, But people always want more so they sell us more but the 3521 did the job just fine, But back then if you had a snow blower you learned how to maintain it and keep it running right because then it was a expence not all could afford, Now it's a disposable society I guess so if you don't maintain it and keep it running right and running less than optimal it may still move snow and are cheap enough to just replace. Although I myself DO like putting the snow in the next county when I clear my driveway LOL.


Yes, if we let marketing influence our thought processes we'll go to h.ell in a handbasket. That's almost the definition of marketing.. to convince people they need and should want what you are trying to sell and pay the price you want them to pay. 
I am attempting to be scientific and objective to avoid that. Since the OP is in Canada I am waiting for someone to propose a specific Yamaha model so I can hunt it down and add it to the list. I don't want to skew the data by hunting one down at random myself since I have no data to say why that model should or should not be recommended in the first place. I am just presenting the data as I find it as a passive observer. 
I have no vested interest which is usually a good thing when trying to be objective. I am however already fascinated by the few results we have so far.


----------



## YSHSfan

stuart80112 said:


> The Honda 724 is claimed to be 7HP but is apparently 198cc. using the conversion table this would make it only 5.5 to 6 HP
> The Honda 928 is claimed to be 9HP but is apparently 270cc. using the conversion table this would make it only 7 to 8 HP


It was clarified by [email protected] at one point that what you are stating about the horse power rating on the Honda engines is no longer true.
He stated that the initial numbers 7, 9 and 13 on the snowblower model mean only 7=GX200, 9=GX270 and 13=GX390. He explained that years ago they stopped rating them by 'hp' and instead they list their max torque output.


----------



## unknown1

YSHSfan said:


> It was clarified by [email protected] at one point that what you are stating about the horse power rating on the Honda engines is no longer true.
> He stated that the initial numbers 7, 9 and 13 on the snowblower model mean only 7=GX200, 9=GX270 and 13=GX390. He explained that years ago they stopped rating them by 'hp' and instead they list their max torque output.


If you go to the websites I found you'll see HP quoted. HONDA HSS724CTD SNOWBLOWER - Snowblowers

This is a Canadian purchaser so they are seeing Canadian marketing... at least from Woodsman.
If you can send me a Canadian webpage from Honda that does NOT rate using HP I'll be ecstatic and I'll switch to the CC methodology but that will worsen the Honda results... but it will be preferable to get apples-to-apples and would be great. (EDIT: I found it myself see next post)
Honda could then fix Woodsman at the same time to remove their false marketing (unless that's the "official" Honda spin in Canada)
EDIT: notice the letter "C" in that model number... I am guessing that is C for Canada and that the A is A for America in the US models.
I struggled to see the meaning of "A" a few days ago and now I think I see it.
Any other factual interpretations for "A" and "C" would be good to know too... I can only guess the alphabet soup... that "A" was the only part I didn't get earlier.


----------



## unknown1

I found it
https://powerequipment.honda.ca/snowblowers/24-inch-track-drive-es#specifications

Great I will remove the woodsman HP ratings and switch them all to CC.. that's much more preferable
That whole HP versus CC thing was a pain to try to convert.
Hopefully Honda will put Woodsman on the naughty step ;-)
Who would have thought that a dealer would make stuff up? .... caveat emptor 
There was another post from Robert earlier today contradicting a dealer too... coincidence? http://www.snowblowerforum.com/forum/1294737-post147.html
Thanks for caring YSHSFan

EDIT: The updated spreadsheet is here using cc per inch and no reference to HP

EDIT: Just noticed Honda prices higher than Woodsman too so I am now using the official honda.ca prices (strike 2 to woodsman)

EDIT: All data is now from honda.ca toro.com and ariens.com - woodsman is out of the picture

EDIT: If you re-read losttrucker's statements (#2) about Ariens having double the capacity for less cost I think I see that in the spreadsheet data.


----------



## YSHSfan

stuart80112 said:


> If you go to the websites I found you'll see HP quoted. HONDA HSS724CTD SNOWBLOWER - Snowblowers
> 
> This is a Canadian purchaser so they are seeing Canadian marketing... at least from Woodsman.
> EDIT: notice the letter "C" in that model number... I am guessing that is C for Canada and that the A is A for America in the US models.
> .


I see stuart.
And Yes, the 'C' is for Canadian market while the 'A' is for America (US models), this was also explained by [email protected] on a post.


----------



## 10953

lets not forget the hp ratings went out the door after the class action law suit a few years back when the engine makers were found to be over rating the hp numbers.on small engines 
https://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2010/04/lawnmower_settlement.html
at that time i had 3 machines with tec. kohler and kawasaki that were included,a 25 hp v twin kohler was found to be 23 and the model discontinued , the 9 hp l head tec was really only 7.5 the 6 hp ohv kaw was 5. 

IMM that suit was the end of the tec line as we knew it and became LCT the china company who took over the engine line


----------



## 10953

PS

here is a link to better understand the conversion of CC to torque and Hp from a nother forum
cc to torque to hp Conversion Update! - MovingSnow.com


----------



## help

to make i worse honda Yamha Yanmar use SAE J1349 and net Torque.


Briggs and stratton - Lct - Locin use SAE J1940 and gross Torqe.


----------



## unknown1

87 powershift said:


> PS here is a link to better understand the conversion of CC to torque and Hp from a nother forum
> cc to torque to hp Conversion Update! - MovingSnow.com


Right, that's what I said I was using in #7 ;-)

So where are all the Yamaha folks? Maybe the thread title put them off... I'd love to hear a model recommendation for those great-looking blue devils so I can add those too. Makes me want to move to Canada! (oops Blue is Bling) ;-) Folks mentioned them in passing.. but no actual models. I don't want to skew the recommendations by just grabbing one at random. They probably don't even realize it's a Canada thread.

Speaking of Canada... I hope Honda do a better job than Sears did with the Canadian model parts databases or lack thereof.. (I know they will). It's impossible to find any information at all on older Canadian Craftsman models.. they stuck a "C" in their model numbers too. However Sears are awesome on information for older US models.


----------



## unknown1

Hey bertbarndoor (OP)
Are you getting anything useful here?
How badly do you want that spin-and-grin chute deflector?
Are you drawing any conclusions... I am... but I'm not saying. ;-)

I'd also love to hear about the MTD auger rust if you can recall.


----------



## YSHSfan

stuart80112 said:


> So where are all the Yamaha folks? Maybe the thread title put them off... I'd love to hear a model recommendation


Yamaha YS1028J would be my recommendation.
The only two things I wish it had is (compared to a Honda HSS928)
1. 'steering assist'
2. pull start as a back up


----------



## unknown1

Yamaha added - Thx

EDIT: Interesting.. HP is quoted on that website again... 10HP ... don't want to go there ;-)
https://www.yamaha-motor.ca/products/details-build-price.php?model=4440&group=SB&catId=92


----------



## YSHSfan

stuart80112 said:


> EDIT: Interesting.. HP is quoted on that website again... 10HP ... data claim absorbed and promptly filed. ;-)
> https://www.yamaha-motor.ca/products/details-build-price.php?model=4440&group=SB&catId=92


My guess is there was no class action law suit in Canada, that might be the reason manufactures can still have the previous HP ratings. 
Or Canada may not have the same way of measuring HP as we do in US (just thinking out loud).


----------



## rfw1953

First let me point out that I'm new to this forum. This is my first response to anyone and just my opinion.


We have experienced similar circumstances. I live in Crested Butte, CO where we get 200"+ annually. Last year was an epic snow season. We got 8' in 10 days. By the time the season was over we had 10' of packed snow in my yard. You could literally walk up onto the roof of my home in the sloped back yard. 


I had an older 28" Craftsmen that just couldn't handle the heavy wet snow or the icy berm the plow placed in front of my driveway each morning...sometimes multiple times during the day. The berm was a beast, mixed with ice and packed snow. The Craftsmen kept breaking down with a variety of failures. The one thing I just couldn't handle any longer was the unit stalling and being difficult to restart. Argh! I would have to drag the unit up my sloped driveway to the house to plug it back in to restart after it sat for a while. I'm 64 years old. I told my wife that I wasn't going to die over a snow blower that was killing me. Besides, it took hours to clear the snow from my driveway and the pathway to side of our home where made a place for our dogs to go out.


My son has an Ariens snow blower. I used it a couple times to try it out. For me, it was heavy, challenging to maneuver and the big thing I noticed was that it didn't blow the snow far enough to get over the 8'-10' berms on each side of my driveway. Not sure which model Ariens he has, but it's a big unit, designed for big snow. I'm sure the Ariens is a great snow blower. This was simply my experience with the single unit I tried out. *Updated 10/16/17* *The Ariens Model 11528LE*...My son solved the power issue by cleaning the carb so the engine would throttle up better under load. He told me this solved my concern about how far the Ariens blew snow. For the price he paid for is as used model, he is quite pleased. 


I decided on the Honda 32" w/ electric start and tracks. Talk about a beast of a snow blower! I've only had for one season, but I'm totally sold on this unit. A friend of mine has the 28" unit and he is pleased as well. The Honda is advertised to blow the snow 56' feet, which I found to be true. It has is plenty of power to get snow over the side driveway berms. It's ability to blow the snow so far enables me to spread the snow over the yard so I don't have any one area with lots of snow. Keep in mind, if you're in tight quarters, you will need to be careful to not blow snow in your neighbors yard or hit his house. It cuts through the snow plow created berm like a knife through butter. I'm impressed with it's ability to break through the ice in the berm. It just chews it up in no time. 


The Honda is easy to maneuver. I appreciate the electric joystick to change chute direction and chute angle while on the move with one hand on the handle drive trigger and the other on the joystick when it's time to change chute direction. I had put chains on the tires of the Craftsmen with hope this would help on the ice/packed snow. This helped a little, but for me, I found that chains just helped a little. This was one of the reasons I chose the Honda with tracks. The tracks made maneuvering and overall movement much easier, regardless of surface conditions. I also like the variable forward and reverse speed control and the adjustable throttle. You can creep the unit in tight quarters or in deep dense snow as necessary to keep it moving. The unit will go as fast or slow as you want to it to go as snow conditions warrant. The 12 volt battery housed within the unit keeps you from having to rely on an extension cord which is another plus. 


Yes, the Honda is expensive. I hope I get many years of use out mine. Time will tell, but so far it's worth the extra expense.


----------



## unknown1

Some handy links for the OP and for your fact-checking pleasure.. (In reverse alphabetic order)

https://www.yamaha-motor.ca/products/details-build-price.php?model=4440&group=SB&catId=92
https://www.toro.com/en/professional-contractor/snow-removal/power-max-hd-1128-oxe-38680.aspx
https://www.toro.com/en/homeowner/snow-blowers/power-max-hd-1028-oxe-38674.aspx
https://powerequipment.honda.ca/snowblowers/24-inch-track-drive-es
https://powerequipment.honda.ca/snowblowers/28-inch-track-drive-es
https://www.ariens.com/en-us/snow-products/snow-blowers/platinum/platinum-24-sho
https://www.ariens.com/en-us/snow-products/snow-blowers/platinum/platinum-30-sho

$USA-CA https://www.google.com/search?sourc...i3k1j0i131i46k1j46i131k1j0i46k1.0.SVukJUVszps

HP-CC-Torque : cc to torque to hp Conversion Update! - MovingSnow.com


----------



## bertbarndoor

Yes, to be fair, I did not maintain the augers or shaft as was recommended. It is likely this contributed. For what it is worth, I did maintain the engine as recommended at it still runs like a champ.


----------



## unknown1

bertbarndoor said:


> Yes, to be fair, I did not maintain the augers or shaft as was recommended. It is likely this contributed. For what it is worth, I did maintain the engine as recommended at it still runs like a champ.


Thanks for that clarification

Can I pester you and ask you to add words to that effect into you initial post please?
If someone stumbles into it they may draw the wrong conclusion.
For any manufacturer... If you grease the augers... and check that they free-spin on a regular basis with the shear pins removed.... and use the correct shear pins... you should not be able to destroy the augers (unless you really try) If you CAN it's a design error. Usually I'd expect the opposite problems... shear pins breaking for no apparent reason... but that's another story. 

The post was great though!

So have you decided what to buy? Are you still in doubt? Feeling confident?


----------



## bertbarndoor

Hey Stuart, yes, getting lots of useful information--thanks to all, very much appreciated. And also, yes I posted in another reply that admittedly I had not maintained the auger or shaft properly and that likely contributed (maybe even the cause, who knows?). Won't make that mistake again.

I had not thought of Yamaha and had not looked into. I am curious that no models have been suggested. I guess I will have to start a new due diligence cycle. Will investigate now for sure. 

The Ariens price and engine (and handwarmers) are certainly more attractive. The Honda electric dual hinged deflector and micro electric steering seem like pretty neat addons too though. IF the Ariens shoot adjustment were able to be manually micro-adjusted with some degree of precision (on the fly while removing snow) then the electric adjustment would likely not be required. But any 'play' in the deflector would have the same undesired result as the old MTD. Don't get me wrong, it wasn't 'wild' or anything, usually just a quarter turn of play. But that would be the difference of shooting it straight down the driveway (between two houses with a shared laneway) and shooting it partially on the house.

Will keep listening. Thanks again.


----------



## unknown1

rfw1953 said:


> First let me point out that I'm new to this forum. This is my first response to anyone and just my opinion...


Wonderful post!
If only we had that Ariens model number and (even better) if it was the ones being discussed then that would have been exactly the info the OP needs.
However.. without that extra information it's just possible that you were using a totally different model and we'll never know.
If this stuff fascinates you and you want to turn that analysis into the post-of-the-year... call your son and find out for us.
Great data!
Great to have you around too.


----------



## unknown1

bertbarndoor said:


> Hey Stuart, yes, getting lots of useful information--thanks to all, very much appreciated. And also, yes I posted in another reply that admittedly I had not maintained the auger or shaft properly and that likely contributed (maybe even the cause, who knows?). Won't make that mistake again.
> 
> I had not thought of Yamaha and had not looked into. I am curious that no models have been suggested. I guess I will have to start a new due diligence cycle. Will investigate now for sure.
> 
> The Ariens price and engine (and handwarmers) are certainly more attractive. The Honda electric dual hinged deflector and micro electric steering seem like pretty neat addons too though. IF the Ariens shoot adjustment were able to be manually micro-adjusted with some degree of precision (on the fly while removing snow) then the electric adjustment would likely not be required. But any 'play' in the deflector would have the same undesired result as the old MTD. Don't get me wrong, it wasn't 'wild' or anything, usually just a quarter turn of play. But that would be the difference of shooting it straight down the driveway (between two houses with a shared laneway) and shooting it partially on the house.
> 
> Will keep listening. Thanks again.


Just for clarification... a Yamaha WAS proposed and it's in the most recent version of that spreadsheet.
No rationale was given for the choice... but it's in there.


----------



## rfw1953

stuart80112 said:


> Wonderful post!
> If only we had that Ariens model number and (even better) if it was the ones being discussed then that would have been exactly the info the OP needs.
> However.. without that extra information it's just possible that you were using a totally different model and we'll never know.
> If this stuff fascinates you and you want to turn that analysis into the post-of-the-year... call your son and find out for us.
> Great data!
> Great to have you around too.



Wow, thank you! I appreciate the kind words. My son is out of town, but I may be able to get the model info today or within the next couple days. I'll provide update as soon as possible.


----------



## bertbarndoor

JnC said:


> If you have the budget then get the Yamaha, especially knowing that you CAN have it being that you are in Canada.



So I had a look at the Yamahas just now. YT624EJ and the YS1028J. Both look like comparable machines to the 24" and 28" Ariens and Hondas. Just curious, in your opinion why Yamaha? Specs-wise and gizmos-wise, they look to be about the same as Honda. Price-wise, it looks like I could pick up a 28" Honda in the USA for $2780 USD ($1000 cheaper). CAD price is $4600 ($3700 USD) for the 28" Yamaha. 

I completed an online quote request form for a local Honda dealer and mentioned in comments I am pricing against online in the USA and they didn't even bother to get back to me yet. LOL, interesting that they are shutting the door to so much downstream or other-line-of-business potential because of an immediate perception of low-margin. At least that is my take on three days and counting of silence on their sales lead. But I digress....

So thoughts on Yamaha?


----------



## unknown1

bertbarndoor said:


> ... I had not thought of Yamaha and had not looked into. I am curious that no models have been suggested. I guess I will have to start a new due diligence cycle. Will investigate now for sure. ..


The reason that Yamaha have lower visibility on this site is because you apparently cannot get them in the USA therefore, unless the Canadians (or other countries) are posting comparisons between manufacturers including Yamaha they will get lost in the noise. I don't understand why they don't have a presence in the USA because they seem to have a high reputation amongst people who have access to them. It's interesting that, as a Canadian, they weren't even on your radar. It sounds like they are missing a huge opportunity in both the USA and apparently Canada too. Weird. Not only that... it's a great shade of blue! (oops... bling!)


----------



## unknown1

This makes everything clear wrt Yamaha for you Canadian multi-linguists
https://www.yamaha-motor.co.jp/snowthrower/history/


----------



## unknown1

This is the google-translate version of that page
https://translate.google.com/transl...//www.yamaha-motor.co.jp/snowthrower/history/


----------



## bertbarndoor

LostTrucker said:


> The Honda only got a 198cc engine vs the 369cc on the Ariens. But each have their pros and cons.....both are good machines



This is what I don't get. How can the Hondas be soooo much better when the engines are almost half the size? Admittedly I don't know much about how engines work, but I thought the bigger the better? My old Yardworks (MTD) was about 380cc and even it had trouble with wet slushy snow. How on earth would a 198cc fare with that?


----------



## bertbarndoor

stuart80112 said:


> The reason that Yamaha have lower visibility on this site is because you apparently cannot get them in the USA therefore, unless the Canadians (or other countries) are posting comparisons between manufacturers including Yamaha they will get lost in the noise. I don't understand why they don't have a presence in the USA because they seem to have a high reputation amongst people who have access to them. It's interesting that, as a Canadian, they weren't even on your radar. It sounds like they are missing a huge opportunity in both the USA and apparently Canada too. Weird. Not only that... it's a great shade of blue! (oops... bling!)



Probably wasn't on my radar because I never see any around (or for sale in any stores). When I'm at Home Depot or Canadian Tire, I see the Ariens and the MTD brands. As for Honda, so many people seem to mention it online, I was naturally curious. Also, although I switched to a German car in my older age, younger me drove a 2001 Prelude SE and even younger me drove a 1986 Prelude. So I have some Honda in my blood.


----------



## .110081

One figure that most left out and I think is very important is tons-per-hour....I know it will depend on snow conditions and speed ect, but it is a quick look on output from manufacturers websites.

like this one from Ariens that states the Platinum 24 SHO is rated upward of 73 tons/hour

https://www.ariens.com/en-us/snow-products/snow-blowers/platinum

Honda HSS724CTD is 46 tons/hr
https://powerequipment.honda.ca/snowblowers/24-inch-track-drive-es#specifications


to me those numbers combined with price speaks volumes in terms of bang for buck.....and then you got maintenance/repair costs......oh my what have we got started again....lol


----------



## bertbarndoor

YSHSfan said:


> Yamaha YS1028J would be my recommendation.
> The only two things I wish it had is (compared to a Honda HSS928)
> 1. 'steering assist'
> 2. pull start as a back up



Hi, thanks for the comment. Question: Why the Yamaha over the Honda? First off, the Yamaha is about $1000 more expensive than the Honda (if I drive down to the USA to pick it up--only 45 minutes and they have a freight drop off at the UPS Store in upstate NY. Not sure what that would do to my warranty though, I assume no warranty unless I drag it back to the USA. For 1000, I may roll the dice on that for 3 years.). Also, as you mentioned, the Honda has those other two options. The Yamaha has a 20cc bigger engine, although I'm not sure that would be noticeable to any degree-I assume no.


----------



## bertbarndoor

stuart80112 said:


> Just for clarification... a Yamaha WAS proposed and it's in the most recent version of that spreadsheet.
> No rationale was given for the choice... but it's in there.



Great spreadsheet btw. Thanks for the help!!


----------



## unknown1

LostTrucker said:


> One figure that most left out and I think is very important is tons-per-hour....


Agreed...Grrr.. I *knew *I wanted to add that as another column but wasn't convinced it would be available from all models. The CC/inch seemed to reflect the same information in a qualitative way if not quantitative. Did you spot the 2:1 on snow volume matching the 2:1 on cc/inch (more or less)
OK.. of we go... new column on it's way..


----------



## unknown1

Here ya go..

Toro specs are in lbs/min so I converted to tons(US)/hour
Yamaha just says tons/hr I suspect this will be metric-tons/hr since Canada finally adopted SI units but not sure.. I took a chance it IS metric-tons/hour and gave them the benefit of the doubt and converted to tons(US)/hour

Bottom line... both bangs-per-buck are the same colors (almost) as I thought they might be... still... good to know.
Someone once accused me of being a geek... can't imagine why ;-)

Don't you DARE ask me to normalize those numbers relative to the smallest or largest value! ;-)
Here it is...


----------



## nwcove

stuart80112 said:


> Hey bertbarndoor (OP)
> Are you getting anything useful here?
> How badly do you want that spin-and-grin chute deflector?
> Are you drawing any conclusions... I am... but I'm not saying. ;-)
> 
> I'd also love to hear about the MTD auger rust if you can recall.


do any of the manufacturer specs include noise levels of their models ? that should be an important factor to consider in an urban environment.


----------



## unknown1

nwcove said:


> do any of the manufacturer specs include noise levels of their models ? that should be an important factor to consider in an urban environment.


Not taking the bait... not taking it... I'm not.... ;-)
EDIT: I mean adding the decibels to the spreadsheet of course.


----------



## unknown1

..and with normalized Bang-per-Buck (you knew I would)

For the non-statisticians a normalized value of 3.94 means it is 3.94 times bigger than the guy whose value is 1.0

Enjoy!


----------



## bertbarndoor

stuart80112 said:


> Here ya go..
> 
> Bottom line... both bangs-per-buck are the same colors (almost) as I thought they might be... still... good to know.
> I assume width * cc/inch and tons/hour are equivalent if I stop and think about it.
> ...



Hi, thanks again for the great Excel work. My wife just said there is someone else out there like me. :grin: One thing on the bang for buck...I have been assuming, should I go for the Honda HSS928CTD that I would actually just order an HSS928ATD in the USA and go down and pick it up. $2700 USD comes to about $3400 CAD, thus that is the price I am using for my decision as it is a grand cheaper. I understand that my 3 year warranty may not be valid up in Canada, but if something MAJOR goes wrong, I can always hall it back, I'm only 45 minutes from the border and a UPS store.


----------



## unknown1

bertbarndoor said:


> This is what I don't get. How can the Hondas be soooo much better when the engines are almost half the size? Admittedly I don't know much about how engines work, but I thought the bigger the better? My old Yardworks (MTD) was about 380cc and even it had trouble with wet slushy snow. How on earth would a 198cc fare with that?


Bumping this question because I don't want it to get lost


----------



## YSHSfan

nwcove said:


> do any of the manufacturer specs include noise levels of their models ? that should be an important factor to consider in an urban environment.


What I can say having both units is that a Yamaha YS1028J is considerably quieter than a Honda HSS1332ATD. A big factor may be its engine enclosure.


----------



## unknown1

bertbarndoor said:


> Hi, thanks again for the great Excel work. My wife just said there is someone else out there like me. :grin: One thing on the bang for buck...I have been assuming, should I go for the Honda HSS928CTD that I would actually just order an HSS928ATD in the USA and go down and pick it up. $2700 USD comes to about $3400 CAD, thus that is the price I am using for my decision as it is a grand cheaper. I understand that my 3 year warranty may not be valid up in Canada, but if something MAJOR goes wrong, I can always hall it back, I'm only 45 minutes from the border and a UPS store.


Because you're the OP I will add that row too 
Hey ... if she can handle you... does she have any sisters? ;-)


----------



## unknown1

Now including the snowblower-smuggling option
No idea how NAFTA and import duties work... you're on your own with that one 
Hey can you bring me some maple syrup on your way down here?

Hope we don't lose those questions lower down (or higher up depending on how you sort your threads) .. They were good ones


----------



## YSHSfan

bertbarndoor said:


> Why the Yamaha over the Honda? First off, the Yamaha is about $1000 more expensive than the Honda


I guess you have not watched any youtube videos of it in action, I recommend you do that.
Why a Yamaha.....mmmm

* Quality is just as good or better than Honda (JMHO)
* Larger engine
* Quieter operation due to its engine enclosure
* Dual chute deflector
* Heavier unit (translates to better traction)
*** Impeller housing and chute teflon liners fitted (no chance of clogging and perhaps longer throwing distance)
* I like Yamaha just as I like Honda
* Auger 'clutches' along with shear pins

I stated what I wish it would have prior (things that Honda does have).

I love Hondas and Yamahas, I have several of them.

If I had to choose between an HSS928 and a YS1028J I'd pick up the Yamaha. Now give me a 'modified' HSS1128 or HSS1328 (they don't exist unless custom made) and I will have a hard time deciding

If I keep my Yamaha I'll likely be adding 'steering assist' eventually.... :grin:


----------



## nwcove

bert should take a few yamahas on the trip for the guys south of the border that really really want one !! just not sure what the honda dealer would think of canadian selling yamahas in the parking lot !! lol


----------



## nwcove

YSHSfan said:


> What I can say having both units is that a Yamaha YS1028J is considerably quieter than a Honda HSS1332ATD. A big factor may be its engine enclosure.


oh yes ! the yamahas make you do a double take when you see snow going 60ft and you could have a normal conversation standing beside one while its working.


----------



## bertbarndoor

stuart80112 said:


> Now including the snowblower-smuggling option
> No idea how NAFTA and import duties work... you're on your own with that one
> Hey can you bring me some maple syrup on your way down here?
> 
> Hope we don't lose those questions lower down (or higher up depending on how you sort your threads) .. They were good ones



Haha, thanks again.  There are no duties, just HST which I would pay up here buying anything anyway. I'm liking the Honda parts availability, ability to service locally, and the various options (gas auger adjust, electric shoot control, hydrostatic drive, tracks, power steering). I'm liking the Ariens power and price. My assumption is that the Honda power lacking would be made up by superior engineering? Not sure about that though.

edit: I'm not discounting the yamaha, but at 1000 more expensive, I'm having a harder time with the value proposition.


----------



## .110081

All prices are in CDN (MSRP) and does not include any sales or incentives

*Yamaha*
171cc YT624EJ - $2899
296cc YS1028J - $4599
358cc YT1332ED - $5899

*Honda*
196cc HSS724CT - $3499
196cc HSS724CTD - $3999
196cc HSS724CW - $2799
270cc HSS928CT - $4099
270cc HSS928CTD - $4549
389cc HSS1332CT - $4749
389cc HSS1332CTD - $4999

*Ariens*
254cc Deluxe 24 - $1699
254cc Deluxe 28 - $1799
306cc Deluxe 28 SHO - $1999
306cc Deluxe 30 EFI - $2599
369cc Platinum 24 SHO - $2399
369cc Platinum 24 SHO EFI - $2899
369cc Platinum 28 Track - $3199
414cc Platinum 30 SHO - $2799
420cc Pro 28 - $3399
420cc Hydro Pro 28 - $4299
420cc Hydro Pro 28 Track BW - $4799


----------



## unknown1

Now the churn has slowed down...
I think we lost the question in #36 and it remains unanswered

Can anyone give it your best shot please? 

To summarize the data so you don't need to find it..
HSS724*TD : 198cc
HSS928*TD : 270cc
Struggling machine : 380cc

The question was

This is what I don't get. How can the Hondas be soooo much better when the engines are almost half the size? Admittedly I don't know much about how engines work, but I thought the bigger the better? My old Yardworks (MTD) was about 380cc and even it had trouble with wet slushy snow. How on earth would a 198cc (or a 270cc) fare with that? 

I inserted the bit in red to kill 2 birds with one stone... hope that's OK


----------



## .110081

maybe the newer ones with 14"impeller improves over your old one......and possibly the impeller RPM???? I guess we are baffled because we are "old school" where bigger engine usually meant bigger performance....lol. The Yamaha 24" only has 171cc and it is amazing to watch...lol


----------



## unknown1

My attempt to answer that unanswered question in #36 is not going to be useful

In fact there are two questions here..
a) How can the Hondas be soooo much better when the engines are almost half the size? 
b) My old Yardworks (MTD) was about 380cc and even it had trouble with wet slushy snow. How on earth would a 198cc (or a 270cc) fare with that? 
 
For part (a) 
What exactly do you mean when you say it is so much better? Better than what? Which data is better?
Better than the Ariens being considered? or better than the MTD? I'm not getting the question.

For part (b)
My best guess on how a smaller engine would perform is.... pretty badly and probably worse.
I can't find a reason to say otherwise.


----------



## .110081

I just said the Yamaha is amazing to watch for only have a 171cc engine.....never said it was so much better at all. Just that it is very impressive for the engine size


----------



## unknown1

LostTrucker said:


> I just said the Yamaha is amazing to watch for only have a 171cc engine.....never said it was so much better at all. Just that it is very impressive for the engine size


That wasn't aimed at you 
I'm answering that #36 question ... In the OP's mind somebody somewhere implied it's soooo much better.... maybe the OP said it to himself... I dunno.... just trying to answer the question as asked.
I should have been more explicit. your post popped up in ther middle while I was typing. I'll edit what I said to make clear I was referring to #36


----------



## bertbarndoor

stuart80112 said:


> My attempt to answer that unanswered question would be to ask back as follows...
> 
> What exactly do you mean when you say it is so much better? Define your terms and show me your data please.



The 'data' is an anecdotal impression on my part that there are numerous posts on this forum extolling the virtues of Honda (and Yamaha). I read many threads where the sentiment is "Honda is worth it if you can afford it". So my general question is why? Maybe we are asking the same question. Why is Honda worth the extra money? Is it the extra gadgets? Is there a perceived or actual greater useful life? Etc...


----------



## unknown1

bertbarndoor said:


> The 'data' is an anecdotal impression on my part that there are numerous posts on this forum extolling the virtues of Honda (and Yamaha). I read many threads where the sentiment is "Honda is worth it if you can afford it". So my general question is why? Maybe we are asking the same question. Why is Honda worth the extra money? Is it the extra gadgets? Is there a perceived or actual greater useful life? Etc...


Great questions! 

They might be best answered as a totally separate thread though because the scope is too wide and this thread is more focused than that.
Here we were handling specific machines and the pros and cons of each for a specific scenario that you described so well.

The second part of the question could stay here though I think
That's specific to the models you are considering..

How will the Honda machine(s) with the smaller engine(s) perform if the bigger (MTD) machine failed?

Your call.. but this thread can go down the tubes if you open up the scope. It's your thread though.
The answers will potentially start mentioning all kinds of machines that you don't want or care about.. Maybe even single stage.
You can craft your new thread question carefully to get what you want and avoid the stuff you don't


----------



## unknown1

Timely thread just fired up giving criteria why a new member chose the Ariens route
http://www.snowblowerforum.com/forum/ariens-snowblowers/119369-choosing-between-ariens-honda.html


----------



## unknown1

Hello OP

I just want to sanity-check some assumptions here because the current shortlist does not make much sense to me.
Of course, you can use any criteria you want.. it's your purchase.
I was trying to remain neutral and passive but want to make sure you get what you need or want.
Here's why..

According to post #1 you began by considering just 2 Ariens machines Ariens Platinum 24 SHO or the 30 SHO
These are both wheeled units
However you said in post #1 that you struggled getting up a hill even with chains
Whenever we have a problem with gradients we would usually start looking at tracked units. 
Why do we feel these two starting models will be OK when the previous wheeled units were not? 
How bad is that gradient and how difficult was it to use the wheeled machine?
BTW: Ariens does have 3 tracked models but they've been eliminated from the short-list.

Next, you considered some Honda models and the reason in post #1 was "mostly because of the electric deflector"
However, this time you went for the tracked models even though there are wheeled models available with an electric chute
But if we thought the wheels were OK for Ariens.. why are we now switching to tracks for Honda? That will just force the price up.
Were there other reasons for considering tracks or did you simply want the electric chute?

I think it is worth revisiting the question "Are tracks necessary or are they not?" sooner rather than later because I'm not seeing the rationale here.
The Yamaha and Toro models introduced subsequently are a combination of tracks and wheels which just adds further to my confusion.

By the way, I have a much bigger spreadsheet now that covers many more models and adds several new columns.
It has the necessary models in it to respond to the track-wheel decision whichever way it goes.
Don't be overwhelmed by it.. we will rapidly be eliminating rows. I wanted a bigger database for other reasons.


----------



## unknown1

nwcove said:


> oh yes ! the yamahas make you do a double take when you see snow going 60ft and you could have a normal conversation standing beside one while its working.


I've added a throwing distance into that spreadsheet.. apparently only one of the 3 models goes 62feet. The other 2 are in the middle range (49 and 55 feet).... but I hear your point on the decibels. I didn't add decibels though...yet.


----------



## unknown1

YSHSfan said:


> ...
> Why a Yamaha.....mmmm
> <snip>
> * Auger 'clutches' along with shear pins


That's possibly like my Bobcats. Clutches came standard. I often wondered why that idea was abandoned.. now I see it it's still around but possibly only on the highest-end "Commercial" units. 
I don't get the fact that all (most?) machines have a 90 degree auger gearbox either.. Bobcats don't... but that's possibly a cost-cutting thing and a digression anyway.. shouldn't have mentioned it.


----------



## unknown1

bertbarndoor said:


> ... I'm liking the Honda parts availability, ability to service locally..
> <snip>
> edit: I'm not discounting the yamaha, but at 1000 more expensive, I'm having a harder time with the value proposition.


Dealers:
EDIT: Are you implying that you don't have access to Ariens dealers in your area but you do have Honda close by? 

Yamaha:
Based purely on glancing at the Yamaha website very briefly it appears that Yamaha may be attacking the commercial market (at least with the highest-end model of their three models.. not so sure with their smaller one)
That could explain things like them having an auger clutch (I'm guessing that's a slip-clutch.. didn't check). With Bobcats, even the "domestic" models were more like today's farm equipment with a slip-clutch

If you buy that they are positioning themselves as "commercial quality" and/or that they are more robust... that could explain that extra $1000.

This has just made me think about adding "kerb weight" to the spreadsheet because it can indicate at least three things....maneuverability (or lack thereof), robustness and ground-traction.
The weight has been mentioned both as a good thing (for traction and robustness.. on the parallel thread I linked to) and as a potentially bad thing (for maneuverability) on this thread.

If you are interested in moving to the more commercial end of things.. then you'd need to revisit Honda and Aries to check out their commercial units.
If you want to stay towards the "residential" part of the spectrum.. that might make you eliminate Yamaha this time around just by cost. Just thinking out loud.


----------



## leonz

Yamaha has a combined 3 year commercial use warranty and a 3 year residential warranty for all three models.

The YT624EJ has a V belt drive for the impeller which also powers the gearbox to the cross augers. 

The YS1028EJ has an electromagnetic clutch drive for the impeller and the cross augers.

The YT1332ED has a V belt drive for the impeller and cross augers.


----------



## unknown1

LostTrucker said:


> All prices are in CDN (MSRP) and does not include any sales or incentives...<snip>


If my prices don't match yours I think it's because you are getting Canadian prices from Canadian websites.
In my spreadsheet I'm getting USA equivalent models and converting back to Canadian dollars
It affects bang-for-buck because the Canadian prices seem to be systematically higher.
OP is willing to buy from US and take them back to Canada so I went that route in the spreadsheet.
I almost included both pricing options but that's a heck of a lot of work due to the number of mouse-clicks for the "A" and "C" Hondas.
I wish the manufacturers would offer a spreadsheet like mine for their entire product line... very useful for the quick comparisons and I could grab the info with a single cut-n-paste.

EDIT: I was at this until 3:30 am last night and getting tired and cross-eyed. I tried hard to get all the numbers right but I cannot guarantee 100%. 
It's always good to fact-check and I'd appreciate any corrections if you spot a typo.

Also, I removed my initial attempt at bang for buck and am just running with tons-per-hour-per-dollar since they seem to be generally available but not always in the same units (lbs/minute). It's easy to convert but a pain to do so.


----------



## unknown1

I have moved this spreadsheet to it's own thread and deleted a couple of posts.
Initially it was helpful for this thread.
Now that I am increasing scope, it has become (or will rapidly become) a distraction from the main purpose of the thread.

I'm still lurking here and interested in helping the OP make his decision to the extent that I can.
Good luck with the decision. 

The spreadsheet is now here: http://www.snowblowerforum.com/foru...473-choosing-snowblower-spreadsheet-data.html


----------



## unknown1

Hello OP - It's gone quiet here. - Is there any change I can make to that spreadsheet to help? 
Is there some criterion that's important to you that you can't get from the table? I'll add it as a column if there is.
I'm concerned that I've left out the Honda machines that do not have the D option - Don't forget that they exist.
Let us know what you choose. Good luck...Don't go dark


----------



## bertbarndoor

Hi, was just away considering and tire kicking floor models. Have to say, I think I am leaning towards Honda for the following reasons:
1) The hydrostatic transmission sounds like it will be handy for my situation. 
2) The electric deflection control is my favourite part I think--will make laser-scalpel snow placement possible which is important in close quarters downtown location.
3) The power steering will make it easier I think over time, especially as I get older.
4) The tilt auger seems like it would be ideal for one side of the driveway where the roof melt drips down and creates icy packed snow hump on that side.
5) Seems like there are 2 schools of thought on tracks vs wheels. I have a fairly steep driveway that wheels sometimes have trouble with. I assume the tracks will help.
6) The platinum and pro lines of the Ariens have the MANUAL joystick deflection control. I see myself having trouble dialing this in as accurately as I would want. In fact, I used the Toro joystick and it looked like it would be terribly inaccurate (or at least it felt like it would be difficult to control as finely as I want to be able to). Although the Deluxe Ariens has the crankscrew deflector, the engine size is smaller in the Deluxe line. Power was one of the main reasons I was considering Ariens. 

The hardest part to overcome is the price. The Honda is twice the price as the Ariens Deluxe I was looking at. It is 1.5 the price of the Platinum line I was considering. But in the end, it is a miserable job to do. I am hoping the Honda will make it bearable. Some people have even called it fun.


----------



## drmerdp

Quite a thread we have here.

If you think you may benefit from tracks, then clearly a Honda or Yamaha would have been your best bet. Then ariens came out with this new rapid track pro model that seems to address the short comings of their previous track design but How it compares to the Honda and Yamaha is yet to be seen. Though because it only has 3 adjustment positions compared to Yamaha’s and Honda “infinite” adjustment range and gas shock, I’ll say it’s still second fiddle. 

As shoot controls go, the Honda and Yamaha have the most consistent and accurate controls when compared to the ariens. The Honda likely is the easiest accurately pin point into position. 

As for engine size, and power to width ratios... the Honda and Yamaha with less power can perform exceptionally well. 

My reasoning for this is primarily the hydrostatic drive. You are never stuck between gears. Simply adjust your speed exactly to the amount of snow. Additionally Honda’s and Yamaha’s are designed for throwing distance as the primary function. As the volume of snow increases, the hydro trans can adjust to a crawl if necessary to keep from bogging or stalling. 

I’ve seen that variable ignition is a feature of the Honda GX engines. I’m not sure if this is to only retard timing for easier starting or plays a role in advancing the timing to increase torque as well. 

Honda and Yamaha have obviously geared the impeller rpms to compliment the engine size of each machine. When I installed my the GX390 on my 928 I used the larger drive pulley that the 1332 came with. With the driven pulley being the same part number between 928 and 1332 models that means that the 1332 is designed to have a faster impeller speed.

I have a laser tach I’d like to eventually use to compare impeller rpms from a variety of snowblowers.

Just so you know. I’ve Had quite a bit of fun using my Honda.


----------

