# What's the point of fuel injection



## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

On a small engine, what's really the point of fuel injection?

These engines run within a very specific RPM range, and are tailored via cam to that condition.

Fuel injection requires a whole bunch of electronics, like a TPS, Temp Sensor, O2, tach. Why interject that complexity on an engine that runs as it runs. Plus, it requires power to start.

IDK, not sure if I like this so called "advancement" . Carbs are so much simpler, and easy to maintain.


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## sscotsman (Dec 8, 2010)

jsup said:


> Carbs are so much simpler, and easy to maintain.


It's that last part thats debatable! 
Most of the time, for most users, carbs are not simple, and they are not easy to maintain.

When was the last time you heard someone say "I wish my car didnt have EFI, carbs on a car were so much simpler and easy to maintain." And when was the last time you had any problem with your cars ignition? 

I remember my Dad under the hood of the family car, about 1975, swearing at the carb on his '65 Ford. But im almost 50, been driving 30 years, and I have never once, ever in my life, had any problem with the ignition on any vehicle I have ever owned.

The time has come, some would say its way past due, to put the same technology on small engines.

I have owned my 1971 Ariens for almost 10 years now..the *only* trouble it has ever given me has been..the carb.

Probably 90% of the reason snowblowers and mowers go to the shop, or get put to the curb..the carb.

EFI on snowblowers will likely be a major step forward, and create far more reliable machines. As long as it works reliably, and there is currently no reason to suspect it wont.

Scot


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

sscotsman said:


> It's that last part thats debatable!
> Most of the time, for most users, carbs are not simple, and they are not easy to maintain.


Neither is fuel injection when you leave gas in an engine. Most carb failures are for poor maintenance. If you maintain fuel injection the same way, you'll have the same problem.



> When was the last time you heard someone say "I wish my car didnt have EFI, carbs on a car were so much simpler and easy to maintain." And when was the last time you had any problem with your cars ignition?


Cars, small engines are apples and oranges. The complexity of a car is totally different than that of a small engine. The reason is cars need to perform under a host of different conditions, stop and go, acceleration, etc. Cars also have to get fuel economy. Both are conditions that don't exist for small engines.

In addition, a car requires a battery to start, when you turn the key, an electric fuel pump brings the fuel pressure to 43.5 lbs (3bar) a carb is gravity fed. 

Also, where does the power come from to prime the system and start the injection? You have to depend on a pull, battery, or electric start. None of which are good choices.



> I remember my Dad under the hood of the family car, about 1975, swearing at the carb on his '65 Ford. But im almost 50, been driving 30 years, and I have never once, ever in my life, had any problem with the ignition on any vehicle I have ever owned.


Fuel injection and ignition are not related. Small engines already have electronic ignition. Two different systems.



> The time has come, some would say its way past due, to put the same technology on small engines.
> 
> I have owned my 1971 Ariens for almost 10 years now..the *only* trouble it has ever given me has been..the carb.
> 
> ...


Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. Maintenance costs are going to go up, and over time bad maintenance habits will result in more costly and just as frequent repairs. Injectors go bad too.


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## sscotsman (Dec 8, 2010)

meh..
just because you can, doesn't mean you shouldn't either.



jsup said:


> Maintenance costs are going to go up, and over time bad maintenance habits will result in more costly and just as frequent repairs.


Will it though? im not convinced that is true at all..
I used the car analogy because I have never, ever, in 30 years, have had any thing ever go wrong with EFI on a car I have owned..and I have never heard of anyone else ever having it either..my cars have never had the EFI break or need service, ever..its never been needed. I have a 1999 Chevy S10, 150k miles, almost 20 years old. EFI has never needed any attention.
2009 Ford Focus, also 150K miles, almost 10 years old, EFI has never needed any attention.

Im sure it happens with cars..but it must be exceedingly rare, I have never personally heard of it happening.
But im willing to bet the rate of carb vs. EFI problems are 99 to 1.
for snowblowers, IMO there is really no way it cant be waaaaaaaaay better than carbs..
carbs are horrible..  its time for them for them to go.

Scot


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## Cardo111 (Feb 16, 2015)

I think this is a reason why many OPE dealers are not so willing to embrace EFI snowblowers. These machines generally sit for long periods of time and therefore carb issues are a bread and butter service item for them.


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## sscotsman (Dec 8, 2010)

jsup said:


> Also, where does the power come from to prime the system and start the injection? You have to depend on a pull, battery, or electric start. None of which are good choices.


None of those are good choices?
All of those are *excellent* choices! 
And if none of those are good choices, then what is the alternative? solar power? coal?  I dont understand how a battery or electric start *cant* be a perfect solution..again, its how cars have been doing it flawlessly for 40 years..


Scot


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## sscotsman (Dec 8, 2010)

Cardo111 said:


> I think this is a reason why many OPE dealers are not so willing to embrace EFI snowblowers. These machines generally sit for long periods of time and therefore carb issues are a bread and butter service item for them.


yeah, thats probably true..for the short term.
But in 20 years dealers probably wont be fixing carbs at all..because they wont exist anymore.

Only us hobbiests using 40 year old snowblowers (60 years old by then) will still be using them. 
and we wont need to bring them to the dealer..

and we arent talking about us weird old-school hobbiests in this thread..those of us that dont mind, and even understand carbs..we are an anomaly, very uncommon...dinosaurs even. 97% of snowblower owners dont care about carbs, or EFI..they just want it to work, and they dont care how. EFI is for them, not us.

I see it as inevitable..you cant fight progress.
No one still debates if carbs are better than EFI on cars..they probably did in 1975, but no longer..
It will be the same with snowblowers and mowers in 20 years IMO..when we will all also be riding in our self-driving electric cars.
(which many people also try to deny is coming..but its already here..)

(and whats funny, is that I have taken the "Pro-EFI" side in this debate..and I will never even own one! 
My two 1971 Ariens will likely last me for life..)

Scot


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## drumsonly2002 (Dec 23, 2016)

My experience with motorcycles, two types of bikers, those who wrench, those who do not. The guys who wrench break down in 2 camps, carb lovers, EFI lovers. Motorcycles that are most reliable IMHO are equipped with EFI.

I prefer a carbed bike and have to tolerate the drama of that system. For a bike, it is more of an old-school organic mindset. I like tinkering with it, and the drama as per the bike backfiring when starting is fun. The sound of a heavy lope of a v twin at idle is music to my ears. the EFI equiped bikes fuel delivery is precise. Thus carbed bikes with high lift cams win in the great sound of a big displacement v twin thumping aggressively at idle. Then again, I do not snow blow with my bike. 

If EFI works as good for bikes and cars, I will embrace that technology towards snowblowers. But will have an old school blower or several for sentimental reasons. If EFI is that and a bag of chips, my next new snowblower will have it.

That being said, I think my blowers will out live me.

EFI makes sense to me to lessen drama. If it makes a small engine more efficient and reliable that is progress. If carbed snowblowers are cheaper, they will be around forever as the general public for the most part buy on price not quality. Unlike us on this forum who prefer quality.


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## 1132le (Feb 23, 2017)

Other then the gov acting so quick like its not there i woudnt want efi
10 min to fix a carb if its cooked


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

sscotsman said:


> meh..
> just because you can, doesn't mean you shouldn't either.
> 
> 
> ...


It is 100% true. I had a hobby business of doing custom fuel injectors for modified cars, Polaris RZRs, ATVs, etc.... It is 100% true that an injector will gum up if left to sit and not maintained correctly. They won't flow correctly causing problems. You can see it clearly on a flow bench. In car where you have multiple injectors, if one gums up, it's far less noticeable than when your only injector goes to crap.



> I used the car analogy because I have never, ever, in 30 years, have had any thing ever go wrong with EFI on a car I have owned..and I have never heard of anyone else ever having it either..my cars have never had the EFI break or need service, ever..its never been needed. I have a 1999 Chevy S10, 150k miles, almost 20 years old. EFI has never needed any attention.
> 2009 Ford Focus, also 150K miles, almost 10 years old, EFI has never needed any attention.


I'm not talking about reliability. FI is defiantly more reliable, in a car. And there's a lot of reasons for longevity, FI being a contributing factor, not the only factor. Better materials, better design, CAD, CAM, etc.




> Im sure it happens with cars..but it must be exceedingly rare, I have never personally heard of it happening.
> But im willing to bet the rate of carb vs. EFI problems are 99 to 1.
> for snowblowers, IMO there is really no way it cant be waaaaaaaaay better than carbs..
> carbs are horrible..  its time for them for them to go.
> ...


FI is a much better solution, for cars. What we are talking about is an engine that runs at a pre defined RMP range that is very narrow, and doesn't have the complex requirements of a car. ALSO, you start and run cars more frequently, no so with small engines.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

sscotsman said:


> None of those are good choices?
> All of those are *excellent* choices!
> And if none of those are good choices, then what is the alternative? solar power? coal?  I dont understand how a battery or electric start *cant* be a perfect solution..again, its how cars have been doing it flawlessly for 40 years..
> 
> ...


I don't see them as good choices because:

1. A battery is something else that has to be maintained, adds weight, and complexity

2. Electric start means you either need a real long cord, or drag a machine back to the garage to start it again

3. Pull start has to energize the fuel pump, and put pressure behind the injector then pulse it, all in the seconds the pull is happening.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

Another issue, these small engine injectors go for $60-100. Carbs top out if you buy wrong about $80. Think of all the electrical issues that can happen with multiple connections in snow and salt.


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## Snowbelt_subie (Dec 20, 2016)

Efi will be the future. It's going to eliminate all of the fuel maintenance problems. That is worth it for most people I would think the life of the machine and ease of use. It will be on all blowers in the near future.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

Snowbelt_subie said:


> Efi will be the future. It's going to eliminate all of the fuel maintenance problems. That is worth it for most people I would think the life of the machine and ease of use. It will be on all blowers in the near future.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


Yes, it will be, I'm just not so sure that's a good thing. It introduces an unnecessary level of complexity.


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## leonz (Dec 12, 2014)

Trying very hard not to start a fire under the Christmas tree here, 

this is one of the major benefits from air cooled indirect injection diesel engines the fuel goes back to the tank and is kept warm simply by being recirculated and you can use seafoam to treat the diesel fuel too as the winter blends have a fuel treatment or are mixed with kerosene to keep them thinner. 

If you put a Hatz recoil start horizontal crank air cooled engine in place of a gas engine with EFI in a snow blower it will perform better as it has a wider power band. The small diesels have either a manual or automatic decompression system so they will start right up and if they are very cold you toss a bucket of very hot water on the side of the engine to warm the engine up and they will fire right up. The small exhaust gas purifiers I mentioned earlier also have a good noise reduction system also. 




Merry Christmas


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

Cardo111 said:


> I think this is a reason why many OPE dealers are not so willing to embrace EFI snowblowers. These machines generally sit for long periods of time and therefore carb issues are a bread and butter service item for them.


Wait till you see the repair bills on fuel injection. One of the reasons they are opposed, is that their mechanics are not trained on FI and it will cost them money to be trained, if they are even trainable. Trouble shooting dollars will skyrocket.


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## Snowbelt_subie (Dec 20, 2016)

jsup said:


> Yes, it will be, I'm just not so sure that's a good thing. It introduces an unnecessary level of complexity.


Efi isn't that complicated I'm pretty sure after trouble shooting a couple it's not going to be rocket science. Fuel pump replacement will probably the main thing. I don't see other parts needing replacement. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## vinnycom (Nov 6, 2017)

cheap solution if u have a tecumseh lhead, not sure of others, buy as many carbs off ebay @ $10-$20 as u like. in the fall start her up and if it runs like crap then take 5-15 mins to easily swap out the carb for new. or keep old carb by draining fuel out after winter and buying non ethanol gas and/or use stabil for 99% of issues avoided.
if u have problems w/efi there might "not" be a easy and/or cheap solution


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

Snowbelt_subie said:


> Efi isn't that complicated I'm pretty sure after trouble shooting a couple it's not going to be rocket science. Fuel pump replacement will probably the main thing. I don't see other parts needing replacement.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


In comparison to a carb it is. Lot more connections to have problems with. I like EFI, I made good money from EFI, I just don't know if sub 100HP engines that run a limited RPM range under specific conditions NEED EFI.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

Oh, and when North Korea hits us with an EMP, us carb guys will be able to blow snow, mow lawns, split wood, powerwash our cars, etc..


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## sciphi (May 5, 2014)

Emissions laws will force EFI onto small engines sooner or later. EFI on cars was junk until it got figured out. Having a narrower range of conditions to fuel for should make implementation and troubleshooting easier. Carbs work, but there is still a bit of black magic and so many more points for issues to arise.


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## vmax29 (Oct 19, 2017)

I’m sure EFI will get more compact, cheaper and easier to use as it is adopted to these motors. Maybe a small replaceable liithium ion battery pack like power tools to run it. Just pull it for off season, charge it up and plug it back in to go. That would be cool.


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## jjlrrw (Feb 4, 2015)

jsup said:


> I don't see them as good choices because:
> 
> 1. A battery is something else that has to be maintained, adds weight, and complexity
> 
> ...


Every item I have own with an engine EFI has been far superior to carb, motorcycles, quads, snowmoblies, cars. The only part I don't know that you have brought up is the narrow RPM range. Lawn mowers have had EFI for 10+ years most reviews I have read are positive, but like with anything new I will wait 2 - 3 years, wish I would have don't the same with the Ariens auto-turn.

No need for a battery, estart and pull start is all you need. Arctic Cat came out with battery less EFI for snowmoblies back in the 90's everyone said no way it would work. Fast forward its been rock solid, two pulls to start cold engine or one pull there after, electric start works the same as pull start first few rotation primes then fires system


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## JLawrence08648 (Jan 15, 2017)

Too new now but a step in the right direction as they did with cars but they've learned on cars so they have a head start. There is not a reliability track record yet on small engines. EFI will come. Should provide quicker starts, more power, smoother running.

Carbs are a nuisance. Stalling on cars, dies in the middle of the road when you press the gas, flooding, all in the past with EFI.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

jjlrrw said:


> Every item I have own with an engine EFI has been far superior to carb, motorcycles, quads, snowmoblies, cars. The only part I don't know that you have brought up is the narrow RPM range. Lawn mowers have had EFI for 10+ years most reviews I have read are positive, but like with anything new I will wait 2 - 3 years, wish I would have don't the same with the Ariens auto-turn.
> 
> No need for a battery, estart and pull start is all you need. Arctic Cat came out with battery less EFI for snowmoblies back in the 90's everyone said no way it would work. Fast forward its been rock solid, two pulls to start cold engine or one pull there after, electric start works the same as pull start first few rotation primes then fires system


EFI is far superior in cars, and all other vehicles that operate various load and various conditions. I don't know if EFI is really a benefit for a situation where all the parameters are pre determined. It will be cold, the rpm range is known, and the load will be no less than X and no greater than Y. 

I just think it's a little much for a 6HP engine. But I'm also sure it will go that way. I do think it will work, and I do think it will be reliable. I just think it's more complicated, expensive, and not really necessary. What's next, catalytic converters?

Side note, EFI does NOT provide more power. We did a test on a dyno, put a 625 RWHP SBC with EFI on the rollers, then swapped it out for a similar manifold that takes a carb, and tested with the carb. There was zero difference in HP/torque curves.

Where EFI DOES make a difference, is idle, you can run a more aggressive cam profile and idle smoother because fuel delivery is not dependent on vacuum at low/idle rpms.


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## Loco-diablo (Feb 12, 2015)

jsup said:


> Wait till you see the repair bills on fuel injection. One of the reasons they are opposed, is that their mechanics are not trained on FI and it will cost them money to be trained, if they are even trainable. Trouble shooting dollars will skyrocket.




^this.. at least if I’m stuck during a snow storm with a carb issue, I feel I have about a 99% chance of wrenching it and repairing it with the parts I keep around. EFI, not so much. It would be cost prohibitive to keep a ‘spare’ EFI parts around. God knows what could go wrong and what part you might need in a pinch.

But alas, I’m sure the EPA will mandate EFI on all small engines sooner or later. 
Until then, I think I’ll stick to my carb.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

Loco-diablo said:


> ^this.. at least if I’m stuck during a snow storm with a carb issue, I feel I have about a 99% chance of wrenching it and repairing it with the parts I keep around. EFI, not so much. It would be cost prohibitive to keep a ‘spare’ EFI parts around. God knows what could go wrong and what part you might need in a pinch.
> 
> But alas, I’m sure the EPA will mandate EFI on all small engines sooner or later.
> Until then, I think I’ll stick to my carb.
> ...


What EFI parts are you going to keep? An ECU? An injector? Injector Connectors? And even if you have those parts, how do you know which one to replace? 

Injectors go bad just laying around on the shelf if not stored correctly. Humidity kills them. ECUs have different software revs, wiring problems can be a bitch if the corrode.

I've had boats long enough to see the havoc salt water (road salt) wreaks on wiring harness.


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## GoBlowSnow (Sep 4, 2015)

well if they can build a carb that can handle the tricky fuels that will be coming sooner or later then we have nothing to worry about..


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## [email protected] (Oct 13, 2017)

If injected is attractive buy it.
If not , go low tech.

What's the point of asking what's the point.


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## 10953 (Sep 4, 2017)

OK to start i'm not a tree huger, i do not want a flame war that makes this post get delete, 

i do understand we most clean up our environmental needs, to clean up the air we breath, for the sake of our kids and grandchildren down the lines. we live in a way different world today, then 20 30 and 40 years ago, carbs on small engines, are now the not long to live dinosaurs of yesterday. we the people most learn to adjust, the days of a carb is numbered, 


the largest reason behind small engines going to EFI is emission laws. 
right now small displacement spark ignition engines are more polluting then cars a single lawn mower pollutes more in a single hour, then 11 cars driving a hour. Cleaner Air: Mowing Emissions and Clean Air Alternatives. A Fact Sheet, https://www.epa.gov/regulations-emi...s/regulations-emissions-small-equipment-tools

as to efi on small engines! kohler has had it since 2015 Kohler Engines: New KOHLER Command PRO EFI 824cc Engine Raises Bar for Power and Fuel Efficiency in Commercial Engines: Press Release, MTD has worked with walbro to make a system used on a few motors today https://todaysmower.com/walbro-worked-with-cub-cadet-to-launch-the-first-consumer-efi-lawn-tractor/

then EFI has been around longer then many know about. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_injection#Electronic_injection

we all need to understand, we need to clean up the air we breath , we need to endorse new tech, not try to live forever in the past.


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## [email protected] (Oct 13, 2017)

87 powershift said:


> OK to start i'm not a tree huger, i do not want a flame war that makes this post get delete,
> 
> i do understand we most clean up our environmental needs, to clean up the air we breath, for the sake of our kids and grandchildren down the lines. we live in a way different world today, then 20 30 and 40 years ago, carbs on small engines, are now the not long to live dinosaurs of yesterday. we the people most learn to adjust, the days of a carb is numbered,
> 
> ...


I'll be the one to decide what I need to understand, thanks.


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## detdrbuzzard (Jan 20, 2012)

problem with EFI on a snowblower is we re looking at it through our eyes. we will still have our old carbureted snowblowers running just fine in 20 years ( I'm 58 ) but the kids who only know how to work a smart phone have no clue how to fix a carb.. just like with new cars and trucks you will have to take your snowblower to the dealer and have it hooked up to the computer to find out what the problem is, maybe they will have the oil changed while its there too


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## 10953 (Sep 4, 2017)

[email protected] like you say. and i agree, as i feel the same way " i'll make up my own mind" but sadly that's not true, weather we like it or not, this new tech, is being pushed down our necks by the federal epa rules, 
again i too am not happy about it, i just learned to lay back and adjust,


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## JLawrence08648 (Jan 15, 2017)

Emission control is here, you have the elimination of fuel adjustments on carburetors. You have to buy replacement carburetors to get fuel adjustments.

EFI is on the way for all small engines.


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## leonz (Dec 12, 2014)

If they bothered to install catalytic converters on small gas engines they would not need Electronic Fuel Injection or computers that will go bad.


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## 10953 (Sep 4, 2017)

https://www.nettinc.com/products/3-...ark-ignited-engines-emission-control-solution
still has a optional controller . what a difference in the exhaust smell and fuel usage from the new engine on my tractor


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

GoBlowSnow said:


> well if they can build a carb that can handle the tricky fuels that will be coming sooner or later then we have nothing to worry about..


That introduces a whole other level of complexity to the system. More sensors, more programming in the ECU, and more. And besides, it's not even perfected in cars yet. 

The better solution is to stop all these silly blends and standardize, which I think is coming. I think it takes 3 gallons of fuel to make 1 gallon of ethanol. PLUS, the mileage isn't as good, so your using more. As a society we need to stop doing things that make us feel warm and fuzzy, and do things that make sense.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

detdrbuzzard said:


> problem with EFI on a snowblower is we re looking at it through our eyes. we will still have our old carbureted snowblowers running just fine in 20 years ( I'm 58 ) but the kids who only know how to work a smart phone have no clue how to fix a carb.. just like with new cars and trucks you will have to take your snowblower to the dealer and have it hooked up to the computer to find out what the problem is, maybe they will have the oil changed while its there too


Interesting point. A recent article, in the last 60 days, in ZERO HEDGE pointed out that Home Depot weekend "HOW TO" courses are reduced to how to read a ruler and how to drive a nail with a hammer.

No, I am not kidding. I used that article in a power point I put out recently.

SO to your point. Yes, my kids generation, not MY KIDS, will have a tool box with two tools, a telephone and a checkbook. But those bills are going to be very high, before they get very cheap. In just three years I saw injectors going for $75 each, down to $15 each.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

87 powershift said:


> https://www.nettinc.com/products/3-...ark-ignited-engines-emission-control-solution
> still has a optional controller . what a difference in the exhaust smell and fuel usage from the new engine on my tractor


That's actually pretty cool.

It will have a significant on exhaust smell. You can always smell a car with no catalytics.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

[email protected] said:


> If injected is attractive buy it.
> If not , go low tech.
> 
> What's the point of asking what's the point.


No point, just a discussion. The market is moving that way, and just wondering if it's manufacturer driven, marketing driven, or consumer driven. 

What criteria, and source, do people use to determine the attractiveness or not of EFI?


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## 10953 (Sep 4, 2017)

jsup said:


> That's actually pretty cool.
> 
> It will have a significant on exhaust smell. You can always smell a car with no catalytics.


when i re powered my cc lt this year replacing it's SV 735 with a cv745 i opted to try one without the F/A kit. what a major difference, no more stinky exhaust, way better performance, less gas per hour. 
guess with the tech in place it won't be long before we see more of it,thanks to uncle sam.


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## 10953 (Sep 4, 2017)

jsup said:


> No point, just a discussion. The market is moving that way, and just wondering if it's manufacturer driven, marketing driven, or consumer driven.
> 
> What criteria, and source, do people use to determine the attractiveness or not of EFI?


HMMM! not us! it's how does uncle sam's epa, the manufacturers are made to adjust, then we have to sadly adjust to also.


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## deezlfan (Nov 8, 2017)

Batteryless EFI has been around for 20 years [Arctic Cat] and is a proven winter technology. It has been miniaturized small enough to be installed on chainsaws [Stihl and Husqvarna] for almost a decade. The EPA has rules that will be coming into effect regardless any current political leanings. It is featured on the more expensive machines now as a selling feature but it will gravitate down to lesser models over time. EFI is coming whether or not the old diehards want it or not.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

deezlfan said:


> Batteryless EFI has been around for 20 years [Arctic Cat] and is a proven winter technology. It has been miniaturized small enough to be installed on chainsaws [Stihl and Husqvarna] for almost a decade. The EPA has rules that will be coming into effect regardless any current political leanings. It is featured on the more expensive machines now as a selling feature but it will gravitate down to lesser models over time. EFI is coming whether or not the old diehards want it or not.


It's comin'. but on false pretenses I'm afraid. Being forced into tech for the sake of tech, or faulty "environmental impact" doesn't really make sense. 

There's nothing wrong with the technology, I just think it's not necessary for small engines. Too much complexity, not enough payback.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

87 powershift said:


> [email protected] like you say. and i agree, as i feel the same way " i'll make up my own mind" but sadly that's not true, weather we like it or not, this new tech, is being pushed down our necks by the federal epa rules,
> again i too am not happy about it, i just learned to lay back and adjust,


Many regulations are based on false science, and are never re-visited to see if they met their original stated goals. If they were, many would be repealed.


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## 10953 (Sep 4, 2017)

i wish but it looks like we will be stuck with it since CARB wants it in place


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## DriverRider (Nov 20, 2016)

EFI is great and has many advantages over carburetors but at what cost.

Consumers will never drive the move to electronics when there is such a dramatic increase in price for it. And don't kid yourself that the price when EFI is established in the marketplace will come down.:laugh: The price of new diesel trucks has gone through the roof with all their emission devices. They can be very iffy with reliability, just ask any business owner who has had a new truck in the shop for electronic engine control problems more than it has been on the road. 

My gripe is this technology gets forced on the consumer by the EPA and it is always the consumer who bears the monetary burden. Government regulations are a tremendous drain on the economy fostering corporatism/cronyism putting small businesses at risk with no end in sight.

Remember when Sony had their email system hacked? FBI, CIA, President of the USA all got involved for a Japanese owned corporation yet when my identity gets hacked no one does anything, is there something wrong with that picture or is it me?


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

DriverRider said:


> EFI is great and has many advantages over carburetors but at what cost.
> 
> Consumers will never drive the move to electronics when there is such a dramatic increase in price for it. And don't kid yourself that the price when EFI is established in the marketplace will come down.:laugh: The price of new diesel trucks has gone through the roof with all their emission devices. They can be very iffy with reliability, just ask any business owner who has had a new truck in the shop for electronic engine control problems more than it has been on the road.
> 
> *My gripe is this technology gets forced on the consumer by the EPA and it is always the consumer who bears the monetary burden. Government regulations are a tremendous drain on the economy fostering corporatism/cronyism putting small businesses at risk with no end in sight.*


My thoughts exactly. If this took the natural course of economics, EFI would be an expensive upgrade, as it is today, $100s more.

As EFI got cheaper, more people would buy it, making carbs more rare, and in turn, more expensive to replace.

Then EFI would become the standard.

However, being forced on us by false claims is what drives me nuts. I say let the economics sort it out, not the activists. 

EFI is a better system for a lot of reasons, however, a single application engine that operates in the same conditions all the time, in this case cold weather between 0-30 degrees at a pre-set, narrow RPM range, under a pre defined load, a carb can be made that address that pretty effectively, and still start on one pull.


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## sciphi (May 5, 2014)

If it'll make it so I don't have to shower to rid myself of the small engine stink after blowing snow, then it's a good thing.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

sciphi said:


> If it'll make it so I don't have to shower to rid myself of the small engine stink after blowing snow, then it's a good thing.


That would be the Catalytic someone posted earlier in the thread, that will get rid of the stink. Not carb or EFI. EFI with no cat, smells the same way.


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## sscotsman (Dec 8, 2010)

(the last two posts were just deleted)
Links to articles about climate change are outside the scope of this discussion.
We try to keep politics to a minimum..

(unless its *really* directly related to snowblowers..and it can be..such as China)

But I think climate change, as a concept in general, isn't really directly enough related..
if the names "Obama" or "Trump" are invoked, thats when you know its over the line! 
thanks,
Scot


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## [email protected] (Oct 13, 2017)

sscotsman said:


> (the last two posts were just deleted)
> Links to articles about climate change are outside the scope of this discussion.
> We try to keep politics to a minimum..
> 
> ...


Sure when the argument is lost just start deleting the facts. Got it.


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## broo (Dec 23, 2017)

For my part, fuel injection is just as mysterious as a carburetor, and so far I haven't had much trouble with either on cars. The only difference I see is that there's no choke with fuel injection.

I have to agree though, what's the point ? I thought carbs were still in use on small engines because it allows for a smaller & lighter engine and there are no antipollution devices on them anyway. I don't think small engines like mowers, snowblowers and such run for long enough in a year to be a significant part of air pollution.

Would I be ready to get fuel injection on a mower or blower ? Sure, as long as it isn't more expensive to buy. Given the choice between carbureted or fuel injected engine on an otherwise identical machine, I'll take the cheapest.


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## Zavie (Sep 23, 2014)

Wish Honda would put FI on it's lawn equipment. My auto choke Honda runs fine all summer long, then it gets cooler out for fall leaf season and it takes 3-5 pulls. That would be ok if I didn't have to keep emptying to bag and restarting. Guess I should have bought one with blade stop or just kept my 20 year old MTD with the good starting Briggs. The Honda does mulch good though.


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## 1132le (Feb 23, 2017)

efi as a rule produces a broader flat torq curve is most likely better for blowers ( on cars it adds torque and gives you a lil less hp
torque is what avg joe blow needs and feels when driving a vehicle as long as efi is working right it will make the blower feel like it has much more power
i find it funny all these so called experts who are debating all this like they know everything
can you rebuild and engine?
or even a carb?
or tune and efi by changing the injectors?

carb is fine for me my next blower will be my last doesnt matter to most on this site


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## 1132le (Feb 23, 2017)

Zavie said:


> Wish Honda would put FI on it's lawn equipment. My auto choke Honda runs fine all summer long, then it gets cooler out for fall leaf season and it takes 3-5 pulls. That would be ok if I didn't have to keep emptying to bag and restarting. Guess I should have bought one with blade stop or just kept my 20 year old MTD with the good starting Briggs. The Honda does mulch good though.


Zav if take the honda auto choke apart and look you will see a spring with some wax near it that gets warm and thats how the auto choke works i should start on 1/2 a pull warm its simple to fix its most likey covered in crud dirt grass etc
that being said i wish mine wasnt auto either 
easy fix though theres a vid on youtube if you need help


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## jim5554 (Mar 18, 2017)

I can rebuild and replace a carb in my sleep. I've been doing it for over 40 years. Fuel injection? I take that to my local repair shop. When it works it's terrific, for cars. When is doesn't work it's a nightmare. It's not worth the aggravation in a small engine. 
The majority of our problems can be directly traced to the **** ethanol laced gas the Government makes us use. If you use a good stabilizer in your fuel, it won't be a problem in either system.


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## crazzywolfie (Jun 2, 2014)

jsup said:


> My thoughts exactly. If this took the natural course of economics, EFI would be an expensive upgrade, as it is today, $100s more.
> 
> *As EFI got cheaper, more people would buy it, making carbs more rare, and in turn, more expensive to replace.*
> 
> ...


efi is still not that cheap compared to a carb. a carb for my trucks are about $300-500 each. even the cheapest aftermarket efi setup to bolt on for my trucks is about $1500 and it might only be good for my small 318. i might have to step up to $2000 kit for the 350 in my other vehicle. by no means would i call it cheap especially compared to a carb. ya carbs can be a bit tricky to set if things ever start acting up but if you take care of them good they keep going good. yes fuel injection is nice for a daily driver so you can just startup and drive but with a good tuned carb you can nearly do the same. as far as fuel injection on a snowblower goes, ya it would be nice but i am not willing to pay an extra $1000+ for it on a machine i am using only part of the year. i have not had to touch the carb on most of my engine since switching to premium ethanol free gas about 10+ years ago. it seems to keep things running perfectly even if i leave it sitting for over a year.


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## 10953 (Sep 4, 2017)

crazzywolfie
not all of us are lucky enough to easily get ethanol free gas, esp.in the USA. in many states we only see 10% ethanol on the pump label . we can't get anything else, many are not lucky to be private pilots and freely get av gas to use in our small ope engines. most can not afford to buy ope fuel at the dealer .a example is here the one dealer with it wants $100.00 USD for a 5 gallon can, who can afford a 20 dollar gallon of gas for his machine? 
we most deal with the cards thrown at us and try to adjust, we have to deal with additives like stabil and others .each of us has their own mixture. 

efi costs are dropping pretty fast,it's just a matter of time before whats now a option like on cars to become standard


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

crazzywolfie said:


> efi is still not that cheap compared to a carb. a carb for my trucks are about $300-500 each. even the cheapest aftermarket efi setup to bolt on for my trucks is about $1500 and it might only be good for my small 318. i might have to step up to $2000 kit for the 350 in my other vehicle. by no means would i call it cheap especially compared to a carb. ya carbs can be a bit tricky to set if things ever start acting up but if you take care of them good they keep going good. yes fuel injection is nice for a daily driver so you can just startup and drive but with a good tuned carb you can nearly do the same. as far as fuel injection on a snowblower goes, ya it would be nice but i am not willing to pay an extra $1000+ for it on a machine i am using only part of the year. i have not had to touch the carb on most of my engine since switching to premium ethanol free gas about 10+ years ago. it seems to keep things running perfectly even if i leave it sitting for over a year.


This is true as a retro fit. But factory installed it's not that much different. EFI in cars is really a requirement for a lot of reasons, they run under different conditions, with different loads, need to hit epa mileage and pollution requirements, etc. Direct injection is even better, don't even need an intake manifold. Direct injection actually raises the gas's octane (makes it act like higher octane fuel) because the timing can be controlled more accurately than with an intake manifold.

But think about all the stuff needed for EFI to work, lots of electrical connections, not well suited for small engines, especially in snow and salt.


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## vinnycom (Nov 6, 2017)

87 powershift said:


> crazzywolfie
> not all of us are lucky enough to easily get ethanol free gas, esp.in the USA. in many states we only see 10% ethanol on the pump label .


u cant even get stabil or similar fuel stabilizer products?


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## leonz (Dec 12, 2014)

I would put a snow blower equipped with a Hatz Diesel using a 
catalytic converter against any EFI equipped snow blower as 
the diesel will work just as well with more torque in the power band.

It will cost more to purchase BUT it will cost less to own and operate 
during its lifetime. 

If you look at the BCS and Grillo 2 wheel mules that are available they 
have Kohler/ACME diesels and can be used the year round with the 
BERTA 2 stage or the two BCS snow blower models being 2 stage 
and single stage made for both brands.


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## sscotsman (Dec 8, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> Sure when the argument is lost just start deleting the facts. Got it.


umm no, wrong, on several levels:

1. The links you posted had zero relation to my "argument" about EFI..or anyones argument about EFI. They were only about climate change, and how different presidents feel about climate change. I dont even remember if they were Anti-Trump or Anti-Obama..doesnt matter either way.

2. Since they had zero relation to snowblowers, or EFI on snowblowers, they get deleted as unnecessary political fluff.
happens all the time here, its a standard policy here.

Scot


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## Zavie (Sep 23, 2014)

1132le said:


> Zav if take the honda auto choke apart and look you will see a spring with some wax near it that gets warm and thats how the auto choke works i should start on 1/2 a pull warm its simple to fix its most likey covered in crud dirt grass etc
> that being said i wish mine wasnt auto either
> easy fix though theres a vid on youtube if you need help


This reminds me of my Triumph Spitfire SU HS4 carbs. Back in the day SU used waxstat jets instead of manual choke jets on their later carbs. Usually after a while the waxstat jets would fail. There are video's of guys substituting pennies for the waxstat module or just converting to regular non-wax jets. I'm looking at the Toro Timemaster 30". Toro just put a larger engine on the Timemaster. I wonder what kind of choke system is on that. Seems that if all small engines went to FI then it would be common place and troubleshooting and repair knowledge would be widespread.


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## DriverRider (Nov 20, 2016)

The early adopters will have GEN 1 models as EFI progresses in small engines their will be refinements. Problem down the road is when you might need a new ECM on your machine ten years hence. Ariens does not make this stuff it is all from chinlee and is proprietary with the software that drives it. 

There are ten-fifteen year old cars on the road that one cannot get new modules for whether it be anti-lock, lighting, traction control etc. Planned obsolescence.


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## vinnycom (Nov 6, 2017)

i bought a non working 30yr old snowblower, tecumseh 10hp w/adjustable carb. fuel was left it in for years as it sat neglected.
i can clean carb(done) or buy a clone one off ebay(on order) for $10-$20.
i highly doubt a small engine efi system will be fixable 30yrs from now.
mine can probably go for another 30yrs


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## crazzywolfie (Jun 2, 2014)

87 powershift said:


> crazzywolfie
> not all of us are lucky enough to easily get ethanol free gas, esp.in the USA. in many states we only see 10% ethanol on the pump label . we can't get anything else, many are not lucky to be private pilots and freely get av gas to use in our small ope engines. most can not afford to buy ope fuel at the dealer .a example is here the one dealer with it wants $100.00 USD for a 5 gallon can, who can afford a 20 dollar gallon of gas for his machine?
> we most deal with the cards thrown at us and try to adjust, we have to deal with additives like stabil and others .each of us has their own mixture.
> 
> efi costs are dropping pretty fast,it's just a matter of time before whats now a option like on cars to become standard


true but there is still lots of additives that are suppose to help battle the effects of ethanol in the fuel. the additives are relatively cheap compared the cost of maintenance yearly. 


jsup said:


> This is true as a retro fit. But factory installed it's not that much different. EFI in cars is really a requirement for a lot of reasons, they run under different conditions, with different loads, need to hit epa mileage and pollution requirements, etc. Direct injection is even better, don't even need an intake manifold. Direct injection actually raises the gas's octane (makes it act like higher octane fuel) because the timing can be controlled more accurately than with an intake manifold.
> 
> But think about all the stuff needed for EFI to work, lots of electrical connections, not well suited for small engines, especially in snow and salt.


but the cost of efi and all the parts needed to run it will always cost more than a simple carb setup especially if you start having issues with some of the parts. i know a lot of the time most icm's or computers tend to rarely last over 20 years before they tend to fail. heck most new stuff rairly tend to make it past 10 years without having issues. i think i would sooner stick with a carb on a small engine over efi but on a daiy driver fuel injection is nice even tho it can be an expensive pain to fix when having issues. you can usually fix more on the side of the road on a carbed engine than you can with fuel injection. plus a well tuned carb burns pretty clean for the most part and can get pretty good fuel mileage. maybe not quiet as good as fuel injection but still pretty good.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

crazzywolfie said:


> true but there is still lots of additives that are suppose to help battle the effects of ethanol in the fuel. the additives are relatively cheap compared the cost of maintenance yearly.
> 
> but the cost of efi and all the parts needed to run it will always cost more than a simple carb setup especially if you start having issues with some of the parts. i know a lot of the time most icm's or computers tend to rarely last over 20 years before they tend to fail. heck most new stuff rairly tend to make it past 10 years without having issues. i think i would sooner stick with a carb on a small engine over efi but on a daiy driver fuel injection is nice even tho it can be an expensive pain to fix when having issues. you can usually fix more on the side of the road on a carbed engine than you can with fuel injection. plus a well tuned carb burns pretty clean for the most part and can get pretty good fuel mileage. maybe not quiet as good as fuel injection but still pretty good.


The reason carbs can be pretty clean and efficient in a small engine, is because of the narrow operating range, and narrow operating conditions. 

FI can last forever, injectors have gotten cheap, as little as $15 for rebuilds (part of the reason I got out of it). My thing is with all the extra connectors required, all the extra wires, lots of opportunity for failure, where it's not really necessary.

I'd never go back to a carb in a car, or any vehicle. For work equipment, I don't see it.


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## stromr (Jul 20, 2016)

:icon-deadhorse:


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## crazzywolfie (Jun 2, 2014)

jsup said:


> The reason carbs can be pretty clean and efficient in a small engine, is because of the narrow operating range, and narrow operating conditions.
> 
> *FI can last forever, injectors have gotten cheap, as little as $15 for rebuilds (part of the reason I got out of it). My thing is with all the extra connectors required, all the extra wires, lots of opportunity for failure, where it's not really necessary*.
> 
> I'd never go back to a carb in a car, or any vehicle. For work equipment, I don't see it.


but stuff like fuel pumps, sensors and computers are not that cheap especially when working on fuel injection. i know i had to replace the fuel pump on my 93. cost about $60 for just the pump. if i wanted a complete sending unit it would have been about $300. i am also currently having issues with the computer on it. it is about $350 for a refurbished computer. i also know a lot of the sensors are also not that cheap. $80 for an oxygen sensor, $120 for a crank position sensor. stuff is not cheap and most of the new vehicles are even more expensive for these silly sensors that fail on new vehicles. for a daily driver ya carbed is definitely not the greatest but can be made to work. currently my daily driver is carbed since the fuel injected junker is $350 to fix.


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