# Toro Power Clear 821 QZE engine knock/rattle during operation



## Herve (Nov 4, 2020)

The following video and description below it (when you open it in Youtube) pretty much sum up what I've been going through the past few days.




In short, I'm not a happy camper.

After making the video I removed the connecting rod and piston and then removed the pin that secures the top of the connecting rod to the piston, freeing the pistion, pin and connecting rod.

In short, the pin fits nice and sungly into both sides of the piston, but the connecting-rod-to-pin is pretty sloppy, IMO. The connecting rod piston-end looks fine. The piston pin, however, has a, how to put it, depression where the connecting rod grips onto it. When the connecting rod is surrounding the pin, it is possible to very slightly tilt the connecting rod on the pin, without the pin moving at all. Just another indication of not a snug fit.

If you agree that the above video shows unacceptable sloppiness, what parts should I replace -- the connecting rod and pin, or should I go beyond that to the pistion and crankshaft?

Just exactly how tightly should the connecting rod grip the piston pin?

Thanks for any advice.


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## sledman8002002 (Jan 20, 2021)

Off hand I'd say the rod, but how are the bearings? The pin description does not sound good either, is anything installed new? The piston and crank pin for the rod should both be a snug fit but yet rotate freely, make sense?


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## Herve (Nov 4, 2020)

sledman8002002 said:


> Off hand I'd say the rod, but how are the bearings? The pin description does not sound good either, is anything installed new? The piston and crank pin for the rod should both be a snug fit but yet rotate freely, make sense?


Yes, that makes perfect sense. If you watch the vidoe on Youtube's site, here's what I wrote for a description.

I bought a Toro Power Clear 821 QZE on Nov. 6, 2020 and used it for the 2020-2021 winter season. On August 3, 2021 (after having had the leaking crankcase cover gasket replaced under warranty), I pushed the blower into the garage, parked it, and there it stayed until Nov. 8, 2021 (two days after the one-year warranty ran out), when I checked the oil level, ran it for a couple of minutes and then changed the oil. It ran for a bit after chaning the oil, but then this noise started. The noise sounded to me as if something was rattling around in the crankcase. Because the warranty had expired, because I am retired, I decided to do some diagnosis of the noise problem. Before doing anything, I removed the spark plug and ingnition key and pulled the recoil starter. A knocking noise was instantly apparent. I removed and disassembled most of the engine. I removed the head and valve train components including cam, lifters and push rods. To narrow down the engine noise I re-installed the crankshaft, piston+connecting rod and connecting rod cap. But before I put the crankcase cover in place I decided to turn the crankshaft back and forth a bit. IMO, either the piston, the connecting rod or the connecting rod's piston pin are waay too loose. 

So there you have it. This was a new machine November 2020. Now I have to deal with this problem without any warranty help. 

There are no separate bearings on either the steel-crank-end of the connectng rod or the steel piston pin end -- in other words, just the aluminum connecting rod's bearing surface rubbing against the steel bearing surface of the crankshaft and the steel bearing surface of the piston pin. I'm thinking that the opening on the connecting rod that the piston pin goes through has worn slightly elongated top to bottum, but I can't prove it because I do not have an inside micrometer to take measurements. 

But I do have an outside micrometer that measures to the ten-thousandth of an inch, so I measured the OD of the piston pin where the connecting rod usually rests and rotates a bit, as well as the OD of pin where it is held into position by the two bottom ends of the piston. The OD of the former is 0.7065" and the latter is 0.7083", so there is at least 0.0018" of space between the rod and the pin. This space would be regarded by many sources I found as being too much. When the pin first passes into the conneting rod, the larger portion of the pin fits that opening more appropriately than the area of the pin where it normally operates. You can hear for yourself how the piston pin "slaps" inside the connecting rod when the connecting rod changes direction. The connecting rod still fits snugly on the crankshaft, with no discernable play, although there has to be at least some space between any two bearing surfaces. 

The piston pin fits nicely into the piston. The fact that the piston-end of the connecting rod is relatively small compared to the crank-end is IMO the reason for its accelerated wear. Too bad Toro did not use separate bearings at least at that one wear-prone location.

I've got to decide which parts to buy, pronto, because winter could arrive literally tomorrow here in Edmonton, Alberta. After measuring with the mic, I think I will first order a new connecting rod and piston pin and, before installing in our machine's engine, see how snugly the new pin fits in the new connecting rod. 

After having had this experience, I'm thinking that this engine is not designed for longevity, although it is possible that I just happened to buy a machine with a softer than normal connecting rod. I'd hate to think that I would have to go through this after every winter in the future. 

I hope other owners of this model will chime in with their experiences -- good or bad.


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## CarlB (Jan 2, 2011)

I would replace the pin and rod


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## sledman8002002 (Jan 20, 2021)

In my experience I dont recall ever seeing a piston pin sold separately? Can you take just the motor alone to a Toro dealer and show/explain your findings to them? A decent and experienced shop should/will look after you considering the purchase date and time alasped. (I thought Toro's came with a 2 year warranty?)
If they wont, then order what you need.



Herve said:


> have to go through this after every winter in the future


No, you have a very rare problem.


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## Herve (Nov 4, 2020)

sledman8002002 said:


> In my experience I dont recall ever seeing a piston pin sold separately? Can you take just the motor alone to a Toro dealer and show/explain your findings to them? A decent and experienced shop should/will look after you considering the purchase date and time alasped. (I thought Toro's came with a 2 year warranty?)
> If they wont, then order what you need.
> 
> 
> ...


After hearing the noise after changing the oil, I took the machine to a local Toro dealer to have some experienced person with these machine have a listen during running and simply tell me if that sound was normal. I was told that the sound was not normal and that the machine would have to be left there so that whatever was causing the noise could be fixed. I asked if the machine would still be under warranty two or three days after the one- year warranty expired. I was told that Toro was strict about warranty dates and, therefore, to expect that I would be footing the bill. I told the rep. that that because I was retired, I would pay myself the labor cost to fix whatever was the problem, which is what I'm attempting to do.

All of the parts making up this engine, including the crankshaft, connecting rod assembly, piston pin and piston are at least _listed_ separately in Toro's online parts catalog. Whether these can actually be purchased this way I am about to find out. ( Frankly, at this point I would not be surprised to find out the the one and only internal engine part I can buy for this engine is the "engine assembly".)

BTW, this is not my first "rare" problem with this machine. 

First, in early this summer I took the machine to a Toro dealer to have an oil leak fised. Supposedly the crankcase cover gasket was replaced under warranty. I say supposedly because when I separated the cover from the cankcase two days ago, the gasket broke up as if it had been there from when the engine was first put together. Therefore, I suspect that to stop the leak the cover bolts were just tightened ............ which is fine because that stopped the oil from leaking. But the invoice stated that the gasket was replaced, with all that entails, so you draw your own conclusions. 

Second, during last winter, not very long after I bought the machine, during cold weather the chute-direction "system" froze into one position. I wrote at length about it and the fix in this forum.








Toro Power Clear 821QZE chute/control feezing up


I bought the unit last November. Used it maybe 6 times since. While blowing a few inches of low-density snow during very cold weather, the blue chute-rotation slide-control freezes into one position and I can no longer slide it up and down, which means the chute is stuck in one position, which...




www.snowblowerforum.com





FWIW, I started a thread over a year ago, before deciding which Toro model to buy and continuing it after making my decision, with some nice photos of the new blower sitting next to the Craftsman 12-hp monster which I've mainted for over 23 years (no freezing or engine problems with Old Faithful).








Toro Snowmaster 824 QXE versus Power Clear 821 QXE


My wife and I have a 23-year-old Craftsman 32", 12HP two-stage blower that we originally bought to deal with big snowfalls in Alberta's mountains, but now we live in Edmonton which usually does not have snowfalls above say 8 to 10" and even those are infrequent. Edmonton's weather from December...




www.snowblowerforum.com





Stay tuned. No doubt I will have much more to add. 

Again, I appreciate any and all advice in this latest issue.


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

When you had the oil leak, did it ever get rather low? Might explain this problem . . .


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## Herve (Nov 4, 2020)

tadawson said:


> When you had the oil leak, did it ever get rather low? Might explain this problem . . .


The oil level never got low. I always check oil level before starting.


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## Yetiman (Jan 12, 2021)

I don't know if Canada is different, but in the US my 821 QZE has a 2 year warranty unless used commercially.

I am surely hoping yours is a very isolated issue in spite of that.

I am definitely watching this with interest though.


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## sledman8002002 (Jan 20, 2021)

Herve said:


> connecting rod assembly, piston pin and piston are at least _listed_ separately in Toro's online parts


I took a look, sure enough you can, I'm shocked, but I learned something today anyway. Order them up and hopefully all will be well for you, I presume you'll grab a new crank case gasket also.

As a side note, your Toro dealer doesnt come off sounding very accomodating to its customer base, were it me, I'd contact Toro direct and explain your situation.


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## Herve (Nov 4, 2020)

As much as I hate to say it, I have just found out that you folks who told me about a 2-year warranty may very well have been correct. The Toro dealer I took the machine to in order to have the oil leak fixed under warranty was not the Toro dealer from which I purchased the machine, so maybe the former did not have the proper warranty information on our machine and, therefore, did not inform me right off the bat that the machine was still under warranty. If I had left the machine there, maybe they would have investigated the true warranty situation further and informed me of that. But rather than accept the possibility that I would have to pay for labor that I am able to do myself, I took the machine back home to do the repair myself. (Is it possible to kick oneself in the ass?) I have to look upon this as a learning experience. I know a lot more about my machine than I did a week ago.

Regardless of my stupid error, now I have to fix the machine, so I'll just forge ahead on that journey. I've sent out requests for quotes for the piston pin, crankcase cover gasket, valve cover gasket, connecting rod assembly and (that ridiculous) push nut. Because it's Remembrance Day here in Canada, most businesses are closed for the long weekend, so I don't expect to get any quotes before Monday or Tuesday.

Everybody have a nice weekend.


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## Herve (Nov 4, 2020)

Upon closer examination by my fantastic neighbor, who is a power engineer, we have determined that not only is the larger opening in the connecting rod out of round, but the steel bearing surface of the crankshaft is also significanly out of round. In one direction the crank is 1.17795" OD, and in an almost perpendicular derection (the direction of compression and ignition impact) it is 1.17165" OD. The latter subtracted from the former is 0.00629", which my neighbor feels is unacceptable and, unfortunately, I have to agree with him. We now believe that _most_ of the noise in the video originates at the crank/rod interface, but some also at the rod/pin interface. 

My neighbor and I cannot figure out how a relatively soft aluminum rod could have worn a hard, round steel crank journal into an elipse in such a short period of running time 

About the number of hours the engine has run. WIth the Toro I am able to blow snow off our driveway and sidewalk in approximately 7 minutes. The absolute maximum number of times I blew snow last winter was 30 times, and that is probably a gross over-exageration. When I did my low-temperature test of the machine at well below -30C, I operated the machine continuously for maybe 40 minutes. Therefore, the total amount of time that the engine ran last winter was 40 + (30 x 7) = 250 minutes, which equals 4 hours and 10 minutes. 

About oil. As the owner's manual recommends, at around 2 hours of operation I changed the original oil. When the dealership supposedly replaced the crankcase gasket in early summer, they either replaced the oil or captured and re-used the oil that was in there. 

When I ran the engine several days ago for a couple of minutes to warm it up prior to changing the oil (the engine ran unattended, I might add), the oil that came out looked well used, even though it had been used for an absolute maximum of 2 hours and 10 minutes. (This is probably normal for 2-hour-used oil, but not for new oil that had maybe 10 minutes on it to run out the last few drops of gas in the tank prior to storage for a couple of months.) Then I replaced that oil with new 5W 30 Quaker State. Then I ran the engine and, after a couple of minutes, I noticed what I thought was abnormal sound; arranged with the dealership to have a listen, etc. as I already described at length above.

BTW, I received two quotes for parts this morning. The lower of the two was just under $90, which isn't so bad. But now I feel that I should also replace the crank, which by itself is going to be close to $140 or even more, so I'm looking at a minimum of $230. 

Therefore, now I'm going to reach out to the dealership who listened to the engine (and for some reason did not tell me that my unit probably had one year left on a 2-year warrantly) and possibly also Toro customer support with all this information and see what they have to say. 

Alghough I can easily prove how long I've owned the machine, of course I cannot prove to anyone that the machine has been run for under 5 hours, total, because, with the amount of wear on the crank and rod, I have difficutly believing it myself. Is the dealership going to believe me? To answer that question, I'm going to bring to the dealership the crankshaft/connecting rod/piston assembly and hand it to the rep., tell my story about the total number of hours on the unit and listen to what they have to say. 

If I don't hear what I'd like hear at the dealership, I will write to Toro customer support somewhere and tell them the same story. 

Any advice on what I should say and how I should say it to both? 

While I'm typing, how many hours of run-time do you think that it would normally take to produce the wear that is on my crank and rod (somehow that didn't sound right)?

My goal in doing this is to get either free parts or discounted parts for a machine I bought one year and six days ago. Repeat: One year and six days ago. Is that too much to ask?

Thanks.


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## Herve (Nov 4, 2020)

I should have added to my last comment that the larger rod opening ID at its bearing surface is 1.224409". The smaller of the two crank OD readings is 1.171653". The latter OD subtracted from the former ID is 0.052756", rounded to significant figure 0.0528", which, again, is a completely unacceptable amount of "play".

I have been completely stumped on what has caused the excessive wear on an egine that has had so little run time, but being a very suspicious SOB, a theory has popped into my little brain today. Tell me honestly what you think of it.

When I went to the Toro dealer from whom I bought the unit (again, in early Nov., 2020), I thought that I would be taking home a unit in an never-opened box. When I mentioned this to the sales person, he told me that they had some units that had already been assembled "in preparation for the upcoming increase in sales", so I would not have to do all that assembly and have a box to dispose of.

I found that reasoning logical and acceptable, but now that my unit has had this mysterious, inexplicable problem of excessive wear, I can not help but wonder if I was sold a "demo" unit or, even worse, a loaner unit that was loaned out to whoever left a unit at the dealership for service. Of course doing that would be unethical and possibly illegal, but so what? Who is going to notice the fraud? just roll the dice and if you just happen to have the unit come in for repair during the warranty, fix it under warranty and get paid by Toro for doing the job. Everybody's happy. If the unit comes in for repair after the warranty expires, too bad for the owner of the machine and, hey, if you play your cards right, maybe you can sell him another "better" blower.

This is the one and only logical explanation that I can think of for the excessive wear ............ not only on the aluminum rod, but also on the steel crank.

My theory, simply put, is that the unit has vastly more hours on it than I think it has.

Can you think of any other reason for the excessive wear?

BTW, yesterday I cleaned the carb on our 24-year-old 12hp Craftsman monster-blower and it's now running great, ready for action. So I'm no worse off now that I was before buying the Toro (whose parts are now sitting on a bench in the garage). So, let it snow, let it snow, let it snow!


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## Ziggy65 (Jan 18, 2020)

I feel your pain for the situation you find yourself in. 

If the unit had been lent out as a loaner or had many hours of use on it, it would be fairly easy to notice compared to a new, never used machine.


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## Herve (Nov 4, 2020)

Ziggy65 said:


> I feel your pain for the situation you find yourself in.
> 
> If the unit had been lent out as a loaner or had many hours of use on it, it would be fairly easy to notice compared to a new, never used machine.


You may very well be right, although cosmetically, our unit still looks like new. Even the paddles still look excellent ( but I understand that it's a quick and easy procedure to replace paddles). There was a notceable scratch on the shroud when I bought it, but I thought is was not worth complaining about. 

Frankly, I have no idea what a high-hour unit would look like cosmetically, but if the situation with snowblower ownership is anything like automobile ownership, cars with equal miles on the odometer can look vastly different cosmetically. It all depends on the fastidiousness of their owners. For example, if I borrowed a blower from a dealer or a neighbor, I'd take extra special care to return it in the same condition it was in when I borrowed it.

I'm just grasping at straws here. Again, you may very well be right about it being pristine new when I bought it. But then I'm left with trying to figure out how all the wear occurred. If the wear was just on the rod, I might logically argue that the aluminum rod was faulty. But the fact that the crank was also worn out of round means that both the crank and the rod were defective, which would be too much of a stretch of logic.


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## nitehawk55 (Sep 9, 2021)

I would get hold of Toro customer service first (Tech. Dept.) , have all your info carefully wrote down from start to finish and see where it goes.
How you present this to Toro will be very important and hopefully you get a person who agrees with your situation . An engine should never have wear like that after light use and an examination can soon tell if the metal used is at fault . Toro actually should take some interest in this as there may be other cases like this as well and may come down to a bad batch.


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## nitehawk55 (Sep 9, 2021)

I should add that there was likely a clearance issue when that engine (and the one in the video) were manufactured . The noise would not be very noticable at first and to the untrained ear not detected till it was really loud . When you get excessive clearance in pin to conn rod and the like the hammering motion will cause wear very quickly.

If it were me calling the shot in the Tech. Dept. you would be getting a new engine installed by the dealer at the very least.


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## Herve (Nov 4, 2020)

nitehawk55 said:


> I would get hold of Toro customer service first (Tech. Dept.) , have all your info carefully wrote down from start to finish and see where it goes.
> How you present this to Toro will be very important and hopefully you get a person who agrees with your situation . An engine should never have wear like that after light use and an examination can soon tell if the metal used is at fault . Toro actually should take some interest in this as there may be other cases like this as well and may come down to a bad batch.





nitehawk55 said:


> I should add that there was likely a clearance issue when that engine (and the one in the video) were manufactured . The noise would not be very noticable at first and to the untrained ear not detected till it was really loud . When you get excessive clearance in pin to conn rod and the like the hammering motion will cause wear very quickly.
> 
> If it were me calling the shot in the Tech. Dept. you would be getting a new engine installed by the dealer at the very least.


Thanks very much for your input and advice. I really appreciate it. I agree with everything you've said, especially your last sentence!

If I understand the theory of lubrication correctly, during operation there is supposed to be a thin layer of oil between the bearing surfaces of the crank, rod and pin. The space between the crank and rod, and rod and pin, is supposed to be small enough to hold the oil and have the oil cushion the blows of combustion chamber ignition, lubricate during crank rotation, and minimize wear if metal parts happen touch each other. Larger spaces allow metal parts to touch and wear each other too frequently. Space beyond a certain point causes a vicious cycle of wear leading to complete failure of one part (usually the rod) and then the entire block. In theory, the metal parts should never actually touch each other, or, if they do, only infrequently. At least I have caught this problem before the engine is a total loss. Right now I'm looking at a repair that is going to cost approximately 1/3 the cost of a new engine.

Your last comment caused me to remember something I noticed during engine disassembly -- the way the cylincer head valve area looked when I removed it. Below is a photo that I took of the head about 20 minutes ago. Do you think that what you see looks like a head that that has been on an engine with less than 5 running hours on it? I have no idea because I don't have enough experience in this area.
Thanks again.


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## nitehawk55 (Sep 9, 2021)

You have very tight clearance at the conn rod/piston pin , if machined and fit right maybe a .001-2" at most . Enough so to let oil in to lube but no movement to cause wear from extreme pressure , an engine in reality is trying to self destruct and will if these specs are not met and remain for the duration of time the engine is designed to last.
The stuff at the exhaust valve could be from oil working it's way up the cyl , it does look a bit excessive and may have been cause by the issue....hard call.

Keep us posted when you hear from Toro , don't bother with the dealer right now , the fact that mechanic said that noise was normal tells me the level of knowledge in that shop.


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## Herve (Nov 4, 2020)

nitehawk55 said:


> You have very tight clearance at the conn rod/piston pin , if machined and fit right maybe a .001-2" at most . Enough so to let oil in to lube but no movement to cause wear from extreme pressure , an engine in reality is trying to self destruct and will if these specs are not met and remain for the duration of time the engine is designed to last.
> The stuff at the exhaust valve could be from oil working it's way up the cyl , it does look a bit excessive and may have been cause by the issue....hard call.
> 
> Keep us posted when you hear from Toro , don't bother with the dealer right now , the fact that mechanic said that noise was normal tells me the level of knowledge in that shop.


Thanks again for the input. But I must make one correction to what you said. The mechanic said that the noise was NOT normal. I thought that the noise was not normal, but I was not certain, which is why I brought it to the dealer to listen to. He confirmed my suspicion. But I still think that you may be right about whom in Toro to contact first. To a certain degree the dealership that listened to the sound, told me that it was an abnormal sound, yet did not inform me that the unit had a 2-year warrantly rather than just let me say that "the one-year warranty has just expired" and not correct my mistake and let me walk out of there with my machine knowing that I was mistken, is not exactly a perfectly objective party in the matter. So maybe it is better that I start at the top and work my way down the food chain rather than the opposite.

The other thing I want to tell you is that the video in my first comment is in fact my engine. My gloved right hand is turning the crank while my left hand is trying to hold the camera steady.

When I tried to decide for myself about whether the head looked normal, I first imagined what a new head looks like. Then I imagined starting the engine and letting it sit on the ground running for five hours, then removing the head after only five hours of running. What would it look like? I find it hard to believe that it would look like that photo, but, again, I am not experienced enough to make a judgement. Maybe it looks normal.

Thanks again.


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## nitehawk55 (Sep 9, 2021)

Sorry I read that wrong . Well perhaps you should get the dealer and the mechanic involved and see if they will help out . If you show them the issue I'm sure they will agree it's a production issue.
I would talk to the dealer and try and see if they would be good enough to back you since there was a misunderstanding on the warranty time . Also see if they feel you should contact Toro first or maybe they will take it on themselves to represent the case so to speak.
Some technical reps are hard core and if this whole thing isn't presented right they will give it a thumbs down . I'm sure your dealer is aware of this but talk it over with him as what he says will be very important. Maybe he will be good enought to say he tore the engine down to inspect it . Worth a try , it's still what it is.


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## Herve (Nov 4, 2020)

nitehawk55 said:


> Sorry I read that wrong . Well perhaps you should get the dealer and the mechanic involved and see if they will help out . If you show them the issue I'm sure they will agree it's a production issue.
> I would talk to the dealer and try and see if they would be good enough to back you since there was a misunderstanding on the warranty time . Also see if they feel you should contact Toro first or maybe they will take it on themselves to represent the case so to speak.
> Some technical reps are hard core and if this whole thing isn't presented right they will give it a thumbs down . I'm sure your dealer is aware of this but talk it over with him as what he says will be very important. Maybe he will be good enought to say he tore the engine down to inspect it . Worth a try , it's still what it is.


Thanks very much for the sound advice!


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## nitehawk55 (Sep 9, 2021)

No problem , back in my day with Stihl we had some real weird stuff come up that we had to comb thru to make sure the problem was legit and not fault of the owner of the equipment . 
I think you will be OK with this one if the dealer works with you and your story is straight forward.

Cheers !


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## Herve (Nov 4, 2020)

nitehawk55 said:


> No problem , back in my day with Stihl we had some real weird stuff come up that we had to comb thru to make sure the problem was legit and not fault of the owner of the equipment .
> I think you will be OK with this one if the dealer works with you and your story is straight forward.
> 
> Cheers !


Interesting that you used to work for Stihl and had to personally deal with customers' issues. 

I'm 71, so I've had dealings with automotive car dealers and numerous issues after maintenance has been done to our vehicles that was not done in a proper fashion. But in this case my experience may unintentionally induce me to say things that might end up being counter-productive, so I'm going to be as, how to put it, sensitive and polite as possible. Luckily, the last time I was there I did not say or do anything that was rude or offensive, so I did not burn any bridges. 

But I have a question for you as a former Stihl person. What should I do if the reps want to keep the crank/rod/piston assembly in order to, say, "send it to Toro for examination"? Even though that seems to me to be a logical, maybe even necessary request, I must say that I would be very reluctant to do that, for I think pretty obvious reasons -- the most important being that I may never see those parts again and I do not want to hire an attrorney to try to get them returned. (See, there's my former "lessons learned" making themselves known.) Should I ask for a receipt for the assembly and how detailed should that receipt be? Should it, for example, contain any description of the obvious wear on its components and a preliminary diagnosis of why it occurred?

Thanks again.


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## nitehawk55 (Sep 9, 2021)

Going to be a good chance they request those parts if they handle claims like Stihl did . In some cases these parts will be sent for further examination and testing in connection with production and QC . There may be other ongoing claims by others who have had the same failure and research being done already if large enough in scope. In some cases parts were sent to engineers in Germany , in other cases we did this in house if not too complex and reported our findings to Germany.

Why would you want those parts returned if Toro repairs or replaces your machine to your satisfaction ?


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## Herve (Nov 4, 2020)

nitehawk55 said:


> Going to be a good chance they request those parts if they handle claims like Stihl did . In some cases these parts will be sent for further examination and testing in connection with production and QC . There may be other ongoing claims by others who have had the same failure and research being done already if large enough in scope. In some cases parts were sent to engineers in Germany , in other cases we did this in house if not too complex and reported our findings to Germany.
> 
> *Why would you want those parts returned if Toro repairs or replaces your machine to your satisfaction ?*


In the parts' present condition, aside from the piston and possibly the piston pin, the crank and connecting rod are no longer of use in the engine. But they still are of value to me as proof that excessive wear in the engine did in fact occur. My fear is that I would give the dealership the parts in good faith and, at the end of some process completely controlled by that same local dealership, receive no satisfaction. In that case, I would want the parts back in hand to appeal the local dealership's decision higher up the food chain. Knowing what I was likely going to do with them, would the dealership hand the parts back to me? I do not know. But I would definitely need those parts in order to persue the matter further. 

When I took my machine to the local dealership, I had thought that the technician was simply going to listen to the engine after we removed it from my vehicle -- a process that would have taken perhaps a couple of minutes. But when I went to the counter to announce that I had arrived, the rep. looked at the invoice I had for their (supposed) replacement of the crankcase gasket; spent some more time doing some paperwork; then he went with me to my vehicle, helped me unload the machine, and tjhen pushed my machine back into the dealership to a room behind the counter, out of my sight, so that "the technician can listen to it". In a couple of minutes I heard the engine start and run for maybe 10 seconds. Then no sound for a couple of minutes. Then the engine running a gain for a few seconds. 

After a few more minutes the rep. came back to the counter and the very first thing he said to me was "you said you changed the oil; what kind of oil did you use?" I said I used the weight of oil that is recommended in the owner's manual. He then said that "the oil in the machine was very foamy -- so foamy that I had difficulty draining the oil". "Draining the oil?!", I thought to myself.

I did not believe what the young man was saying, but I did not say that. He then said that in order to determine what was wrong with the engine that I would have to leave the machine with them. It was at that point my incorrect belief that the 1-year warranty had expired became the overriding issue in my mind. I asked if Toro would "extend" that warranty by a couple of days and another nearby rep's reply was that "Toro is very strict about the warranty period". I don't know if the rep. who said that about Toro's strictness had the same knowledge of anything to do my machine's situation that the rep. who was doing the paperwork and asking about the oil certainly did. But when I heard about Toro's strictness, that, together with the rep's questions about oil, caused me to decide that it was time for me and my machine to leave. My comment at that point was that "if I do the work, at least I don[t have to worry about voiding the warranty". Certainly, at this point, the rep. familiar with my machined's history should have informed me that my machine had a 2-year warranty, wouldn't you think? But he didn't, so I walked out the door with my machine. Etc. 

All I went to the dealer to find out was whether the engine sound was normal and what kind of oil did I use is the first question I'm asked. I could not help but think that this question was the first step in a serious attempt to place the blame for the abnormal sound on me. 

When I got home I immediately started to diagnose the engine noise myself. I pulled the plug, the ignition key and pulled the recoil starter. I immediately knew something was wrong inside the engine. Knowing I was going to disassemble he engine, I then drained the oil into a large, clean aluminum pan that Costco at one time used as a container for their seasoned chicken wings. As soon as the oil started to hit the tray, I knew that the rep. had probabaly lied to me about draining the oil ...... unless he caputured the draining oil and put it back into the machine, which I doubt. 

The above is the "backdrop" for my possible return to that dealership. Maybe you now understand my reluctance to had over my engine's parts to those people. 

But, I agree with you. In the end, if Toro replaces or repairs my machine to my satisfaction, I don't care if I ever see the parts again. It's what happens between now and "the end" that concerns me. 

Thanks again.


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## nitehawk55 (Sep 9, 2021)

OK , I didn't understand it was that complicated and as you I see a couple red flags , one the question of the oil which is BS because I have never seen an engine fail due to what type of motor oil was used , if it was the specified grade of 5W30 the reps comment of it foaming is nonsense. Do you still have the used oil ? , if so keep it. Just curious , did you notice any metallic bits in it ? , this may have been the reason the dealer wanted a sample of the oil to see if it contained these which would indicate excessive wear going on with the internals.

The second thing is " Toro is very strict about warranty" , yes most companies are but he is supposed to look after this , not try to discourage you if that was his intention. Any OPE company should be willing to look at major equipment failure on a case by case basis......at least Stihl did, not sure how Toro operates so I can't speak for them. The issue of the miscommunication about the warranty is going to be a bit of a stickler, was the dealer aware that you had only owned the machine for about one year? , also this is the dealership you purchased it at....correct? 


With you giving me this new info I would suggest you go directly to Toro CS and try to get thru to a Technical Rep. and carefully explain how this all transpired from what you did and what the dealer did in detail , you don't want it to turn into a "he said, she said" mess . You seem to have all the facts together so that's good. The Rep is likely going to question why it was you that ended up tearing the engine apart which goes back to the confusion about the warranty . If this is the dealer you purchased it from they would have been able to check the warranty status and SHOULD have.

No problem


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## Herve (Nov 4, 2020)

nitehawk55 said:


> OK , I didn't understand it was that complicated and as you I see a couple red flags , one the question of the oil which is BS because I have never seen an engine fail due to what type of motor oil was used , if it was the specified grade of 5W30 the reps comment of it foaming is nonsense. Do you still have the used oil ? , if so keep it. Just curious , did you notice any metallic bits in it ? , this may have been the reason the dealer wanted a sample of the oil to see if it contained these which would indicate excessive wear going on with the internals.
> 
> The second thing is " Toro is very strict about warranty" , yes most companies are but he is supposed to look after this , not try to discourage you if that was his intention. Any OPE company should be willing to look at major equipment failure on a case by case basis......at least Stihl did, not sure how Toro operates so I can't speak for them. The issue of the miscommunication about the warranty is going to be a bit of a stickler, was the dealer aware that you had only owned the machine for about one year? , also this is the dealership you purchased it at....correct?
> 
> ...


Get ready to experience what my wife tells me is my miracle cure for insomnia.

*Oil*
Thinking that I might have some use for the final oil drain, such as the possibility that it might be examined for metal particles, I kept the last-drained oil in the aluminum pan up until two days ago, when I almost kicked the pan over when I attempted to move the big blower from its normal storage position to where I could more comfortably work on its carburetor. Rather than risk creating a real mess again, I emptied the oil into the larger container in which I store used oil prior to taking it to the local Eco Station. The contents of that larger container consist of the oil that I removed prior to the recent oil change and, a couple of days later, the oil I drained from the machine right before disassembling the engine. Obviously, I do not keep that used oil container scrupulously clean, so examining the oil in that container as a means of determining what was going on in my engine is, I believe, not going to be useful. After all, it is the condition of the parts themselves that are the ultimate proof of what was going on in the engine. Saying this has prompted me to once again think about the condition of the valve-area of the cylinder head. If the accumulation of burned-oil debris is caused by oil that has leaked by the rings, this reinforces a potentially important argument that the internals of the engine were well lubricated for the max-5-hours that the engine ran. Therefore, if parts go to anyone for examination, the parts are going to include the head.

*From whom did I buy the blower and why didn't I take it there for these oil-leak and engine-noise issues?*
I do a lot of research on equipment I'm considering purchasing and this machine was no different. When I went to purchase the machine, I knew that I would have to change the oil at around 2 hours of operation. But while I was actually paying for the machine, the rep. told me that I should change the oil once per year. When I mentioned the owner's manual's recommendation to change after the first 2 hours, he told me that I was mistaken and that one year was the recommended interval. When I got home I checked the manual and confirmed the 2-hour recommendation. I immediately sent the rep. an email with a photo of that section of the manual just so that he would tell future buyers of this machine about the 2-hour recommendation. I didn't expect to hear anything back from the rep. and I didn't.

In comment number 6 in this thread I provide a link to a thread I started last winter about the chute-control freezing up in cold weather in about 3 minutes -- about half the time it took me to blow off the driveway. All the details of the issue are there. This is supposedly another “rare” problem that just happened to happen to my machine. I called and wrote the dealer's service department from whom I bought the machine about the problem to see if other buyers of this machine had reported the same problem and, if so, what was the fix. They told me that they had only rarely dealt with this problem and that the fix they recommended was to spray on certain parts a certain very expensive product. I wrote down the name of the product. The reason that I bring up that past issue is because when I told that dealership's service department that for very practical reasons I would rather fix the issue myself, pronto, rather than quite possibly have to take the machine back and forth to the dealership (a 20 minute drive each way, at best) several times to finally resolve the issue, the person who actually sold the machine to me interjected himself into, and took over, the email conversation and told me that I might very well void the warranty if I endeavored to fix the problem myself. You might guess and be correct that this led to some back and forth emailing between me and the rep who sold me the machine, during which I mentioned his faulty oil-change instruction when I bought the machine. After that continued for several exchanges, the rather exasperated manager of the dealership gave me an unexpected phone call. During that call he told me that all he wanted to do was fix the problem with my machine and I said that's all I wanted to do, too. I told him about what I had done to hopefully fix the problem and that I was going to test the machine after the next snowfall. He said that if what I had done did not fix the problem that he would send somebody to pick up the machine and he would do what he could to fix it. The call ended on that friendly understanding. In short, what I did fixed the problem, permanently, I believe, so I never had to call the dealership about the problem again. But the behavior of that rep, caused me to decide to never deal with that dealership again, which up until today I haven't. When I noticed the very, very slow oil leak, I took the blower to another dealership that just happens to be much closer to our home. This is the same dealership I took the blower to in order find out if the engine noise was normal. Etc.

Bear with me here. The day I bought my unit, November 6, 2020, on my recommendation, my power-engineer neighbor bought the same machine at the same dealership. My unit had the freezing problem. His did not. When my machine started to leak oil very, very slowly, he claimed that his unit did not. HOWEVER, on November 1, 2021, he called to tell me that his unit, which had not been moved all summer, had a small stain of oil underneath the engine. On November 2, four days before the one-year anniversary of his purchase, he took it to the dealership where he bought it to get the leak fixed. On November 5, the dealership called him and told him that the leak was due to him not tightening the drain plug enough (which he and I believe is BS) and that they noticed that the unit had a foreign substance in its fuel tank and that the remedy of that situation would not be covered under warranty. My neighbor told them that he would fix the fuel issue and he was coming to pick up the unit. The dealership charged him $10 for one liter of fuel and $60 to diagnose that his fuel tank had foreign material in it. On November 6 I could see the foreign material in my neighbor's gas tank, so, after telling him where I believed the foreign material had come from (take a wild guess), I helped my neighbor remove the gas tank, remove the foreign material and clean the lines and carburetor. Before starting the engine, my neighbor to told me he would first buy some fresh gas and add some fuel stabilizer, so we waited until the next day to start the machine. Well, the machine did not start, so we went through the typical “is it getting spark? Is it getting gas?” procedure. In order to prove spark we removed the spark plug, placed it against the side of the engine and pulled the recoil starter several times. It was getting spark, but the plug was dry. My neighbor remarked at how easy it was to pull the starter and how smoothly and quietly the internals operated. I told him that that was the way things should be on an engine with no compression. We then put the plug back in and turned our attention to the carb. We removed the bowl and, sure enough, no fuel was being delivered by the needle valve. A little carb cleaner spray and it poured out. We reassembled the carb. Re-installed the shroud, re-inserted the key and the engine started on the first pull. The engine sounded great. Job done. Neighbor appreciative. My point in telling this little story about the neighbor is that that event is what prompted me to immediately change the oil in my machine, which I did. It was the fact that I had just listened to my neighbor's engine running that led me to conclude that my unit's engine did not sound right, etc. Amazing coincidence, don't you think?

(BTW, yesterday my neighbor called to tell me that he now believes that the crank journal was likely not machined correctly at the factory and should be considered as the main suspect in the excessive wear. He points to the fact that even though the rod-to-piston-pin clearance seems a bit too loose, the piston pin still has a near-mirror-like finish and the rod opening there is also still looking very good, surface-wise. While, OTOH, the surfaces at the crank-end do not look nearly as good. He said that QC in some Chinese factories can be hit and miss. I thought that these engines were manufactured in Japan, but he believes that they are mad in China.)

Again, the dealership I took the unit to in order to have a technician listen to the engine is the same one I took it to for the repair of slow oil leak, under warranty, so, yes, I believe that that dealership was fully aware of the date I bought the machine and, therefore, that it was/is? still under warranty until Nov. 6 2022. I mentioned the Nov. 6, 2020 purchase date several times while I was there for the noise issue. One again with feeling, nobody said anything about my unit having a 2-year warranty. If they had, likely my unit would still be there either getting fixed under warranty or, if I had been told that the claim for warranty work had been rejected, here at home, very likely in the same state it is now.

I've gone back and forth several times about how to proceed at this point. I'm leaning toward starting at the top and working down, but I do see the advantage of possibly getting the latter dealer involved in the process, at least initially until possible rejection, at which point I would go to the top.

I'm even considering contacting the manager of the dealership from whom I bought the machine. He seemed like a reasonable man on the phone, but that is just my initial impression. Employees tend to emulate the behavior of their bosses. If the employee I bought the machine from is emulating the behavior of his boss, I will probably be SOL trying to get him to honor my machine's warranty.

Thanks again for all your helpful information and advice. Can you imagine how difficult it is going to be for me to boil all of this down into a short, easily understood plea for Toro's help? Even I can't, yet, but I have to give it a shot. Writing these long comments and getting your input is going to make that an easier, hopefully cut-and-paste job.


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## nitehawk55 (Sep 9, 2021)

The loss of the oil is not significant but it would have been good to have in the case of the dealer saying it was foaming.....no biggie , don't sweat it but have the info on the oil you did use at the ready as you may be asked . 
It's good you and your neighbor have some mechanical skills and understanding . It's too bad you have dealers that offer poor information....what a mess . I cannot understand why that dealer would not know that the break-in oil should be changed out after a couple hours.

I'm concerned with the idea of getting the dealers involved before contacting Toro , it is going to be your word against theirs and giving them the heads up may work against you depending how honest they are , and yes I've seen that happen. Toro will be contacting the dealer(s) anyway to confirm all this info you give them which I suggest should be by Email after the Tech. Rep gives you his Email after the initial contact, facts get lost in a conversation on the phone . I have been impressed with your ability to be clear with all the facts so I think the Toro Rep. should understand this as well. He would probably also be interested in the video you did showing the noise in the engine BTW.

Good luck on getting this underway , it really should work out for you . You need to get that machine back ASAP as it is snowing here in London as I type this !

Cheers.


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## Herve (Nov 4, 2020)

nitehawk55 said:


> The loss of the oil is not significant but it would have been good to have in the case of the dealer saying it was foaming.....no biggie , don't sweat it but have the info on the oil you did use at the ready as you may be asked .
> It's good you and your neighbor have some mechanical skills and understanding . It's too bad you have dealers that offer poor information....what a mess . I cannot understand why that dealer would not know that the break-in oil should be changed out after a couple hours.
> 
> I'm concerned with the idea of getting the dealers involved before contacting Toro , it is going to be your word against theirs and giving them the heads up may work against you depending how honest they are , and yes I've seen that happen. Toro will be contacting the dealer(s) anyway to confirm all this info you give them which I suggest should be by Email after the Tech. Rep gives you his Email after the initial contact, facts get lost in a conversation on the phone . I have been impressed with your ability to be clear with all the facts so I think the Toro Rep. should understand this as well. He would probably also be interested in the video you did showing the noise in the engine BTW.
> ...


Thanks for your support. 

I'll start at the top tomorrow, hopefully getting a name and an email to contact. I'll post how that goes.

As I was typing my last long comment, Edmonton started having its first significant snowfall. But now it's above zero and the snow is melting, so maybe we'll have a few more days of reprieve before winter inevitably sets in. 

Have a good one!


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## nitehawk55 (Sep 9, 2021)

You too Herve , my youngest son was posted at Edmonton some years back but lived in Bon Accord so I got to know the area a bit on visits.

Cheers !


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## Herve (Nov 4, 2020)

To my dismay, without giving me the opportunity to provide Toro with further evidence of anything engine-wise or dealership-wise, Toro has decided that because I am not a person authorized by Toro to do anything to my machine, I have voided the machine's 2-year Toro warranty. Yes, Toro was kind enough to tell me that my machine DID in fact USED TO have a 2-year warranty when I brought it to the dealer to listen to the running engine.

I replied to Toro's decision, expressing my disappointment, and politely asked them to provide me with the torque specifications for the connecting rod cap bolts and cylinder head bolts. I have a pretty good idea what Toro's reply will be.

I must say that I am not only not surprised by Toro's response, but I fully expected it. Therefore, I now have to behave as if it's November 19, 202*2* and the machine's 2-year warranty has run out and I have to repair the machine myself as best I can. 

Stop the presses! I have just received Toro's lightning-fast reply to my request for the torque specifications for the crank cap and head bolts. My "pretty good idea" of Toro's reply was correct. Toro says that they do not have those specifications, but they do suggest that I contact a local Toro dealer for that information. 

I have replied to this latest Toro refusal with another question. What should I do if the dealer refuses to give me that information? (I have a pretty good idea what their "reply" will be this time, too -- no reply.)

Anyway, does anyone know of a source for the torque specifications for the fasteners in the G250FDS-4 engine (or is that information now classified for reasons of national security -- reasons that cannot themselves be revealed for reasons of national security ).

Thanks.


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## Herve (Nov 4, 2020)

I was wrong about Toro not responding to my question about what I should do if the dealer refused to give me the torque specs. They replied that I should try another dealer.


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## nitehawk55 (Sep 9, 2021)

Sorry about how it went Herve , I would be sorely disappointed too . 
They should have at the very least listened to what had happened. It seems more and more CS is a thing of the past.
Sorry no idea on the torque specs .


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## groomerz (Feb 7, 2015)

What a sad story here. 

Not sure whose chonda Toro uses. Power more or lct.

I wonder if a 99$ predator motor could have been used as a replacement motor or maybe as a short block 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## nitehawk55 (Sep 9, 2021)

What is your plan for it Herve ? , short block or new engine??


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## Herve (Nov 4, 2020)

groomerz said:


> What a sad story here.
> 
> Not sure whose chonda Toro uses. Power more or lct.
> 
> ...





nitehawk55 said:


> What is your plan for it Herve ? , short block or new engine??


I'm very interested in what you both say because I myself have been having some impure thoughts that Toro might very well think are, how to put it ............... mortal sins. Either substitute a different engine, or some variation, exactly as you suggest. The problem I see would be obtaining an engine that the unit's paddle dirveline could attach to it. 

My fear now is that in order to order parts from local Toro dealerships, I must pay for the parts before they order them and there is no returing parts or refund after I pick them up. I don't know what Toro considers to be an acceptable tolerance for, for example, the "roundness" of the journal on the crankshaft. How round does it have to be? I know that the one in my machine is out of round by an unacceptable amount, but I can only guess at the reason for that. Whatever it was, in five hours of running time, the engine is a knockin' and I do not want to get another crank in the same condttion as the original.

Therefore, I would like to be able to order a new crank, even pay for it up front, but when it arrives, when I go to the dealer to pick it up, I'd like to take a micrometer with me and, right in front of the person that hands it to me, measure the journal to make sure that it is round down to four decimal places on inch dimension. If it is, great. But if it isn't, what then?

I have in-hand a crankshaft that has end-bearing surfaces that look very good, but a journal not so good. It's also out of round. Would/could a place that re-builds engines, or produces high-performance engines -- a place that has machine tools -- either build-up the journal via some spray-metal process, or machine the journal just a very small amount, to make it perfectly round again? If that could be done relatively inexpensively, I'd buy ony a new connecting rod assembly; assemble the engine to the point seen in my video in my first post; then rotate the crank quickly back and forth to see if everything is nice and quiet. If it is, then I'd put everything together, add oil and test the engine before connecting to any of the paddle driveline.

The problem with using a different engine is the same one faced by those who want to put a different engine in their automotive vehicle -- how to connect the new engine to the OEM vehicle transmission. Some kind of adapter plate has to be used. Below is a Toro drawing of where the paddle driveline connects to the engine crankcase cover. To get an adapter plate between the new engine and OEM paddle driveline will, IMO, be difficult. I'm open to any suggestions.


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## Herve (Nov 4, 2020)

Just stumbled onto this very interesting video showing resurfacing of bearing surfaces on a crank. So it is indeed possible to resurface journals on a crankshaft. How expensive can it be to resurface one journal? That's the question. Myabe it all depends upon how busy the machine shop is. But at least you know what you've got when it's done. After my recent experience,_ that's_ what's most important to me.


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## nitehawk55 (Sep 9, 2021)

Thing to do first is identify the engine , they are not made by Toro , they are one of several Chinese makers and I am sure there are available options out there once you know what to look at . Any chance of pictures of the engine so we can sort out what it is ?
Any parts thru Toro are going to be top dollar.


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## jherbicide (Oct 14, 2021)

Just an idea, what about replacing the whole engine with another Loncin 252?

According to the toro manuals, the engine is a different part number between the two models, but I’m guessing the only real difference is the Powermax models have a fuel shutoff valve. 





__





PowerSmart Part 303190249A Loncin 252cc Snow Engine w/Electric Star


303190249A PowerSmart Part number 303190249A Loncin 252cc Snow Engine




www.m-and-d.com


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## Herve (Nov 4, 2020)

nitehawk55 said:


> Thing to do first is identify the engine , they are not made by Toro , they are one of several Chinese makers and I am sure there are available options out there once you know what to look at . Any chance of pictures of the engine so we can sort out what it is ?
> Any parts thru Toro are going to be top dollar.


FIrst, remember that the video in my first post gives a pretty good idea of the operating position of the engine. The head-end of the engine points directly at the operator during snow blowing.

Yes, I can provide photos, but to get a really good idea of my model 38757, within serial number range: 406830000 - 408999999 , give the following video a peruse. The only difference that I can see between ours and the one in the video is that ours has an electric start and quick-chute system.





In order to have a good record of disassembling the engine with which I could reference while re-assembling, I took some photos. I've also included a screen-capture taken of the identifying numbers on various parts of the engine, including the engine, as well as the first photo which shows the operator end of the blower when completely assembled (notice where the recoil mechanism's cord disappears into the shroud) .

















































I'd really rather not completely assemble the engine with gas tank, etc. at the moment, but, if it would help, I could put the crank in the block, attach the head and take photos of the result from various angles. Let me know.

I've taken some quick looks at various engines for sale as replacements for various models of various blowers and other horizontal-shaft equipment. I see two problems with them. First, the location of the recoil mechanism and, second, the location of the oil filler hole opposite where it is now, albeit on the same side of the engine -- the latter would make oil changes difficult.

But I really would like to find out who manufactures Toro's engines. Whoever does that probably manufactures the same engine with a different label for other pieces of equipment by other vendors. Below are some characters that appear on some of the parts of the engine and the engine itself.


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## Herve (Nov 4, 2020)

jherbicide said:


> Just an idea, what about replacing the whole engine with another Loncin 252?
> 
> According to the toro manuals, the engine is a different part number between the two models, but I’m guessing the only real difference is the Powermax models have a fuel shutoff valve.
> 
> ...


Great find! If I can find some good photos of the engine, that might be a relatively inexpensive way to go, IF it has the correct crankcase cover that has the right threaded openings in the right places. Maybe it would be possible to create a hybrid engine with parts from new and "old" engines.

Thanks again.


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## jherbicide (Oct 14, 2021)

Herve said:


> Great find! If I can find some good photos of the engine, that might be a relatively inexpensive way to go, IF it has the correct crankcase cover that has the right threaded openings in the right places. Maybe it would be possible to create a hybrid engine with parts from new and "old" engines.
> 
> Thanks again.


the big question would be if the crankshafts are the same (output shafts)

I would call that outfit tomorrow and see if they can tell you and snap some pictures. I seriously doubt that Loncin would change castings for something like the crankcase cover.

At least to me, I would be most concerned about the crankshaft, but of course I’ve seen stranger things and perhaps a boss or post is just enough different….


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## jherbicide (Oct 14, 2021)

Somewhat to my surprise and certainly to my disappointment, the Toro part numbers for crankcase covers are different between the Powermax and Snowmaster…


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## nitehawk55 (Sep 9, 2021)

A bit late , yes that's a Loncin and I agree likely a standard size crank and probably the side cover has the same bolt pattern . If you can get one of those that would be they way to go.
Should be a distributor in Canada .


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## jherbicide (Oct 14, 2021)

My bad… you have the QZE…

It’s a different crankcase cover between the other two!!!


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## nitehawk55 (Sep 9, 2021)

jherbicide said:


> Somewhat to my surprise and certainly to my disappointment, the Toro part numbers for crankcase covers are different between the Powermax and Snowmaster…
> 
> View attachment 183386
> 
> View attachment 183387


Would that just be the bolt pattern for the Toro application ? , Crank journal should be the same so it may just be doing a swap of the cover.


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## nitehawk55 (Sep 9, 2021)

Would be nice if a short block is available but not likely.


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## Herve (Nov 4, 2020)

jherbicide said:


> the big question would be if the crankshafts are the same (output shafts)
> 
> I would call that outfit tomorrow and see if they can tell you and snap some pictures. I seriously doubt that Loncin would change castings for something like the crankcase cover.
> 
> At least to me, I would be most concerned about the crankshaft, but of course I’ve seen stranger things and perhaps a boss or post is just enough different….


I'm going to follow your suggestion. Thanks!

On the website you linked, I noticed and quickly downloaded the following service manual for the 212cc Loncin "200F（D）S-210F（D）S" engine. That manual is a gold-mine of information! I believe that most of the various specifications within it also apply to the 252cc engine.



https://www.m-and-d.com/pdfs/PowerSmart/Loncin%20G210FDS%20ENGINE%20SERVICE%20MANUAL.pdf


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

A little late here, as well as being uncertain regarding Canada, but in the US it is expressly illegal to void a warrantly simply because you opened it. They are required to prove that either something that you did or a part you used caused the damage to be able to legally void. (Magnussen-Moss warranty act . . . )

I just went through this "game" with an electronics vendor . . . network switch died, and warranty states all covered for life except the power supply, which is one year, so opened it and took measurements . . . . supply was fine, so submitted for warranty but they tried to void due to opening. A cite of the law as well as complaints filed with both State and Fed, along with a reminder that it was opened _after_ failing, and magically, a month later it was covered, but had to escalate and push _hard_.

Granted, different equipment, but almost an identical scenario . . . certainly can't hurt to give it a try.

Again, not sure about Canada, but if the law is similar, call BS on this and escalate to someone with a brain at Toro whose main function is not just to deny claims . . .

My $.02 . .


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## jherbicide (Oct 14, 2021)

nitehawk55 said:


> Would that just be the bolt pattern for the Toro application ? , Crank journal should be the same so it may just be doing a swap of the cover.


Yea one would think you could swap the crank cover (If output shafts are the same) and any other extraneous parts and be off and running.


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## nitehawk55 (Sep 9, 2021)

jherbicide said:


> Yea one would think you could swap the crank cover (If output shafts are the same) and any other extraneous parts and be off and running.


I would hope that is the case here , I doubt it should get complicated.


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## nitehawk55 (Sep 9, 2021)

tadawson said:


> A little late here, as well as being uncertain regarding Canada, but in the US it is expressly illegal to void a warrantly simply because you opened it. They are required to prove that either something that you did or a part you used caused the damage to be able to legally void. (Magnussen-Moss warranty act . . . )
> 
> I just went through this "game" with an electronics vendor . . . network switch died, and warranty states all covered for life except the power supply, which is one year, so opened it and took measurements . . . . supply was fine, so submitted for warranty but they tried to void due to opening. A cite of the law as well as complaints filed with both State and Fed, along with a reminder that it was opened _after_ failing, and magically, a month later it was covered, but had to escalate and push _hard_.
> 
> ...


Not sure of the Canadian laws either but Toro certainly should have listened instead of just blowing it off.


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## Herve (Nov 4, 2020)

tadawson said:


> A little late here, as well as being uncertain regarding Canada, but in the US it is expressly illegal to void a warrantly simply because you opened it. They are required to prove that either something that you did or a part you used caused the damage to be able to legally void. (Magnussen-Moss warranty act . . . )
> 
> I just went through this "game" with an electronics vendor . . . network switch died, and warranty states all covered for life except the power supply, which is one year, so opened it and took measurements . . . . supply was fine, so submitted for warranty but they tried to void due to opening. A cite of the law as well as complaints filed with both State and Fed, along with a reminder that it was opened _after_ failing, and magically, a month later it was covered, but had to escalate and push _hard_.
> 
> ...


Thanks very much for your input!! 

This prompts me to do something which I initially decided not to do -- post an image of Toro's refusal. My favorite sentence begins with "We can not control.............."


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## nitehawk55 (Sep 9, 2021)

Yup, just blow a customer off , that's the way to keep them coming back !!

At least at my time at Stihl Canada you could actually ask for the service/Tech dept. and talk to a person , not an Email robot.


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## nitehawk55 (Sep 9, 2021)

Really gets me when I see a company do that , it should be on a more personal case by case basis.......at least that's how we did it. Gave me great satisfaction to sort out issues for customers and a lot of times it was the dealer who had diagnosed it wrong and screwed up . We preached proper testing at our service schools but it seemed most felt it took too much time.
Some times it came back to bite our dealers....sometimes they lost our product because of THEIR actions !


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## Herve (Nov 4, 2020)

Below is a photo I took 5 minutes ago of the crankcase installed loosely on the block. Notice how this compares with the amazingly detailed diagram of the Loncin 212cc engine in the pdf service manual that I linked a few posts ago.


















The two cases look mighty similar to me, including the oil fill provision at the top of the case. On my case, the port on the case is there, but blocked. Apparently the port is used to fill oil on the Loncin. But on the Loncin, there is available the port where oil is added on our unit. It is probably blocked on the Loncin.


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## nitehawk55 (Sep 9, 2021)

Looks good , if you do get a complete engine you will likely have to swap some things , I see no reason why the case cover would be an issue to change . Watch that seal sitting against the crank journal ! 😬
What are you seeing for the crank journal size , the same ?

They may have a few different variations available too.


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## Herve (Nov 4, 2020)

nitehawk55 said:


> Looks good , if you do get a complete engine you will likely have to swap some things , I see no reason why the case cover would be an issue to change . Watch that seal sitting against the crank journal ! 😬
> What are you seeing for the crank journal size , the same ?
> 
> They may have a few different variations available too.


I do not have my neighbor's 2-inch micrometer available, but with my 6 inch digital caliper, I measure both end-journals to be the same --1.1000" OD.

What should I "watch" for on the "seal sitting against the crank journal"? There are two crankshaft oil seals in this engine -- one at the output-end of the crank, the other at the flywheel end.

The centers of four bolt holes surrounding the crank seal on my crankcase cover are exactly 65mm apart, exactly as shown in the Loncin diagram above.

At the end of the day, the engine in my unit was manufactured by Loncin. They probably also manufactured the crankshaft and machined all the journals, including the rod journal that is now out of round. It is possible that Loncin has sub-contractors that manufactured the crank and machined it. Regradless, Loncin manufactured the engine. Now I have to decide whether or not to buy another either through Toro at a high cost, or another Loncin-engine vendor at a much lower cost ............... or get the crank journal machined locally and know with certainty that it is round.

First thing tomorrow I will call a few engine machine shops in Edmonton and see what they recommend. If I don't go that route I'll try to find some Canadian vendor of Loncin engines and see if I can obtain a service manual of the 252cc.

Thanks again to all of those trying to help me out.


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

Mifht also see if you can get parts cheaper from Loncin direct as well.


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## nitehawk55 (Sep 9, 2021)

Just didn't want the seal damaged . 

The chance of you getting another "bum" engine are highly unlikely , they are a good manufacturer .
Check things out , I wouldn't give Toro a dime of your money .


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## jherbicide (Oct 14, 2021)

nitehawk55 said:


> Just didn't want the seal damaged .
> 
> The chance of you getting another "bum" engine are highly unlikely , they are a good manufacturer .
> Check things out , I wouldn't give Toro a dime of your money .


If the dealer had any sand at all, they’d at least help out on parts $ and the tech info. But it sure seems they’re no good at all.


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## nitehawk55 (Sep 9, 2021)

jherbicide said:


> If the dealer had any sand at all, they’d at least help out on parts $ and the tech info. But it sure seems they’re no good at all.


That dealer already had his chance , he should have taken control of the situation and gone to bat for his customer.
Some dealers don't like getting into warranty repairs because it usually doesn't pay as much. A good dealer would but they seem in short supply nowadays.
Word of mouth wins new customers as much as bad loses them.


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## groomerz (Feb 7, 2015)

nitehawk55 said:


> That dealer already had his chance , he should have taken control of the situation and gone to bat for his customer.
> Some dealers don't like getting into warranty repairs because it usually doesn't pay as much. A good dealer would but they seem in short supply nowadays.
> Word of mouth wins new customers as much as bad loses them.


This topic is got a lot of issues

I believe herve didn’t 1st go to dealer he purchased from. 
He got wrong warranty info from that dealer. 

He took engine apart then after that he discovered it was still under warranty he went to purchasing dealer expecting warranty after he took it apart 

Biggest issues is operator error as he Didn’t review copy of his warranty that came with machine or ask on here before taking engine apart

Put yourself in a dealers shoes. It’s a canundrum

It’s not his fault for failure but 
We as fixers no one enjoys working on machine that someone else has taken apart . Dealers included


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Herve (Nov 4, 2020)

In short, the machining and Loncin options were either impossible or impractical, so I had to order genuine Toro parts from a parts place outside of Edmonton. The two Toro dealers I've dealt with in the past are not going to get any more money from me. The parts will take about two weeks to arrive, so I probably won't be posting more until then. After they arrive I'll be posting about my re-assembly of the machine to continue this real-life drama.

In the meantime, thanks again to those of you who have taken the time to become knowledgeable with the details of what's been going on with me, Toro and my machine. I really appreciate it.


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## nitehawk55 (Sep 9, 2021)

Sounds good Herve , looking forward to it getting all sorted out.
Cheers !


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## Herve (Nov 4, 2020)

I'm back before I said I would because I'm still trying to find a pdf or paper version of my engine's service or shop manual. 

During my research of Loncin engines, I found the Loncin LC175F-2, 252cc, 8hp engine on the following website in New Zealand (it takes a few seconds to load up):


https://mikeschainsawshop.co.nz/product/loncin-lc175f-2-8hp/



One of the few differences between it and my engine is that it does not have electric start. I can tell from the various photos that the block has the "provisions" on it for an electric start, but I think that they would have to be drilled and tapped, which is no big deal. First mine:









Now the Loncin:









The view of the operator-end of the end of the Loncin shows that the valve cover is identical to that on mine, as well as that the carburetor seems to be identical. 









The photo of the power-output shaft side of the engine proves that the crankcase cover is, essentially, identical to that of mine, except that this Loncin's crankcase cover provides its owner the option of using TWO oil-fill ports (with the top one blocked, as it is on mine).










The Loncin's engine controls are NOT identical to those on mine. The Loncin has a throttle control, while mine has governor-control or the engine speed, so, therefore, the carb on the Loncin might be slightly different than mine, but maybe not. The photo below also makes it higly likely that my recoil housing would fit the Loncin engine.









Although it may seem that I'm posting this comment in order to provide an alternative to the Toro-labeled engine (which it does, IMO), the real reason I'm posting this is to motivate me or someone else reading this post to try to find a service/shop manual for the Loncin LC175F-2 engine. I am certain that, for example, all of the torque specifications for this Loncin engine are IDENTICAL to those on the "genuine Toro" engine.


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## nitehawk55 (Sep 9, 2021)

www.loncinindustries.com/en/engine/manualList.aspx?catid=8-20-24-317-322
\

on page 2 2nd from bottom looks to be a 175 series snow engine . Didn't see any shop manuals.


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## Herve (Nov 4, 2020)

I should have added to my last post that because the Loncin has manual throttle-controled engine speed, its crankshaft probably does not have the metal gearwheel that would drive a centrifugal governor-controlled max-engine-speed system (unless engines that have manual throttle control also have a governor). And, therefore, I most likely could not use the crankshaft from the Loncin engine in my engine and still have the governor operate to automatically maintain full-throttle engine speed under load. 

If someone (not I, because I've already ordered Toro parts) were to buy the above Loncin engine to replace the OEM engine in their model 38757, that person would have to make a probably-minor modification to the shroud in order to allow him/her/whatever to adjust throttle position, as well as do some modifications to the key ignition switch.


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## Herve (Nov 4, 2020)

nitehawk55 said:


> www.loncinindustries.com/en/engine/manualList.aspx?catid=8-20-24-317-322
> \
> 
> on page 2 2nd from bottom looks to be a 175 series snow engine . Didn't see any shop manuals.


Thanks for taking the time and effort to find that link, nitehawk55. I found the same one and investigated the parts lists of the various LC175 models. As far as I can tell, all of them are "version number: 2011-01", which probably is a date of the version. None of these various models have a head that is designed like mine; the valve cover is a different shape; the cranks are nothing like mine; and the rocker arms are significantly different than mine. (But other than that, they're great!)

The good thing about those various pdfs is that they all contain the same Loncin email address at the very bottom of the last page -- [email protected] I'll send an email to that address and ask for a service/shop manual for their LC175F-2 and include a couple of photos, just to make sure they send the correct manual, if they actually do (why wouldn't they?). Maybe it'll be undeliverable to that old address. If it is, I'll try to find a current address and do the same. 

Thanks again for your effort.


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## nitehawk55 (Sep 9, 2021)

A manual operated throttle set up has a governor too , it takes over when under load.

If a person were to get a Loncin for a replacement I would just switch whatever parts needed.
Of note , the engine you show in your pics has a low oil shutoff.

Yes hopefully they will step up and offer a service manual , something that wasn't hard to get anywhere years ago. We had piles of parts and service manuals in the Stihl warehouse when real books were still a thing.


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## Herve (Nov 4, 2020)

nitehawk55 said:


> A manual operated throttle set up has a governor too , it takes over when under load.
> 
> If a person were to get a Loncin for a replacement I would just switch whatever parts needed.
> Of note , the engine you show in your pics has a low oil shutoff.
> ...


All of the engines I've worked in in recent years have the governor-controlled throttle, so I did not know that all small engines with manual throttles also have a governor. So the difference between the two arrangements is that the manual throttle engine is able to be idled at low rpm, while the governor-only engine always runs at top-rpm and the governor link opens the throttle-plate to offset the drop in rpm as the engine comes under load. Therefore, maybe the crank in the Loncin would in fact fit in the Loncin/Toro engine. Something to keep in mind. 

I did not notice the low-oil shutoff. Good feature. 

I agree with you 100% about how things used to be when it came to obtaining parts and service manuals. You'd think that because of the computer revolution, etc. that one could get these manuals in a few clicks, but that's definitely not the case here. How can "Toro Consumer Service" NOT have those engine shop manuals at their fingertips, readly to provide to their customers -- especially to their customers who own equipment that is beyond the warranty period? Are there no DIYrs left in the world? Just as I did in the good old days, today I'd be willing to _pay_ to get a shop manual, either pdf or paper (if the latter even exists) for my engine, but I can't find a vendor. Maybe someone reading this will point me to one.


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## Herve (Nov 4, 2020)

Unfortunately, the Loncin email address that I mentioned above no longer works. Shortly after hitting the send button, I received back a "delivery failure notification".

Since that email failure I've been trying to use Loncin's "contact us", fill-in-the-blank page. For some reason I get an error every time I hit the "submit" button, and have to go back to square one.

I just tired sending an email to [email protected] and so far have not received a delivery failure notification.


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## jherbicide (Oct 14, 2021)

Just curious, was the crank output shaft different on that one fro M&D?


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## Herve (Nov 4, 2020)

jherbicide said:


> Just curious, was the crank output shaft different on that one fro M&D?


I contacted M&D and they couldn't provide me with any further information on the Loncin engine than what was on the link you sent.

But, FWIW, below are a couple of photos from Home Depot in Canada of the PowerSmart Loncin 252cc snowblower. When I compare those photos to those of the Loncin above, I can instantly tell that the PSM's is a different engine. Note the difference between the valve covers, in particular.


















Edit on Nov. 24:
Something just hit me as I was eating breakfast. Home Depot Canada sells the Loncin-engine-powered PowerSmart snowblower that I mention in this post. Some Canadians who buy this PSM blower will end up having (the no doubt rare) serious or not so serious engine or other problem and they will almost certainly contact HD about that. I don't believe that HD itself attempts to fix these problems and will instead refer their customers to a local place that will do the fixing. I'll contact HD to find out who fixes this Loncin-powered snowblower locally and then contact that place to see if they have a contact for PSM/Loncin engine service manuals. They must use service or shop manuals, don't you think? (I'm hoping like H that HD's fixer is not one of the two wonderful Toro dealers with whom I've had my wonderful Toro Consumer Service experiences.)


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## Herve (Nov 4, 2020)

Although I was near-certain that the LC175F-2 is in fact the engine in my Toro unit, I have now found proof positive that it _almost_ certainly is. The proof is provided by a Youtube video I stumbled upon a short time ago. You know what to do to view the video:
h..........ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xo-pUAzyh9E
I have a few screen-captures from the video that IMO are the proof, but first a couple of photos I took a few minutes ago of my cylinder head's rather unique rocker arm area. Note the "02" on the floor of the head and the "175" on both rocker arms, but more visible on the left.









A close-up of the left arm:









Now screen-captures from the video. Note the same "02" and "175" on the head:

















Now my engine head's raised numbers "1914" between the spark plug opening and the rocker arm area:









And the Loncin's same raised number in the video:









So the Lonin LC175F-2's cylinder head is the one that is on my Toro engine. Here's what I think is another sign that the Loncin is the "Toro" - a raised number cast into the crank at the foundary -- "LC175":


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## Herve (Nov 4, 2020)

I've just discovered what should have been an obvious difference between the Loncin LC175F-2 and the Loncin/Toro engine -- the former apparently has a 1" OD output shaft and the Toro's is 3/4". 

Where the Toro's shaft exits the crankcase cover bearing and oil seal it is just over 1" OD, but is soon after turned down to 3/4" to fit into the paddle-drive system's drive pulley.

So if one wanted to buy the LC175F-2 to replace the OEM Loncin/Toro engine, even if one could actually find it in North America, one would have to have its output shaft turned down to 3/4" and a key-way machined for the drive pulley. This would require the engine to be disassembled so the crank could be put in a lathe and milling machine. One would have to carefully weigh the pros and cons of doing this.

If one really needed a replacement engine fot the OEM Toro but could not afford the OEM Toro, I believe that there is a good chance that the Harbor Freight 212cc, 6.5hp Predator engine, manufactured by Loncin, would fit, but I am not certain of that. It has a 3/4" shaft, but I don't know if the key-way would be correct for the Toro drive pulley. 

Regardless of all the above, I'd still like to get my hands on the LC175F-2's shop manual for all of its fastener torque specifications, valve clearances, etc.


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## jherbicide (Oct 14, 2021)

The alternative (easier perhaps) is to modify or replace the pulley, versus machining the crankshaft. A Grainger or MCMaster Carr might have the pulley needed readily available.

Forgive me if you’ve posted the pictures, but is that pulley metal or plastic? If metal, any machine shop should be able to modify accordingly, or machine an adaptor to allow it to fit.

Edit: Of course this is all only if for you it’s still an option to replace the whole engine…

I see the pulley is metal: measure your keyway, if it doesn’t match the Predator, take it to a machine shop and see if they can modify the pulley. You’ll also want to verify the mounting pattern and output shaft heights between the two motors, but that is easy enough since you have a motor in hand, and can measure the replacement.


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## Herve (Nov 4, 2020)

jherbicide said:


> The alternative (easier perhaps) is to modify or replace the pulley, versus machining the crankshaft. A Grainger or MCMaster Carr might have the pulley needed readily available.
> 
> Forgive me if you’ve posted the pictures, but is that pulley metal or plastic? If metal, any machine shop should be able to modify accordingly, or machine an adaptor to allow it to fit.
> 
> ...


All good points and options.

I thought of the machine-the-pulley option before submitting my last post. I measured the pulley and the problem is that the solid part of the pulley surrounding its hole is not that much bigger than its hole. There is enough material there to create the 1" hole, but the solid area of the pulley surrounding it would then be thinner -- maybe too thin, but maybe not. Doiing that would be taking a chance, but the pulley is probably not that expensive and this option could indeed be attempted before any crank work. The good thing is that it is a, how to put it, wide pulley. 

There are other possible problems with an outright replacement engine and you've mentioned a couple. The engine is held tightly into only one position. The drive pulley has to be held in only one vertical and horizontal position. Therefore, the length of the drive shaft has to be of a certain length; the keyway has to be the correct size and the threaded hole at the end of the drive shaft has to be the correct thread and, less important, the correct depth (the bolt could be shortened a bit if necessary if the threaded hole is too shallow). If the centerline of the drive shaft is not the exact correct height, shims could be put under the engine to make it the correct height. Or the base of the engine could be machined or sanded or filed to lose a bit of thickness. I believe that Harbor Freight provides the dimensions of the bottom of the engine, but I'm not positive on that. The pictures of the engine indicate to me that the crankcase cover is identical to mine.

Here's a potential problem. I'm sure people have noticed "exclusive" products at Costco, Best Buy, etc. etc. All of these places promise to "match or undercut" prices on the stuff they sell. Just bring in the other vendor's price and they'll match or beat it by a certain percentage. The problem for consumers is that when they do this, the model number from the other vendor has to EXACTLY match that of the product where you made purchase ........... to the letter or number. But because the thing you bought is "exclusive", it also has a unique model number. So the "price matching" selling pitch is useless ......... to the consumer. It's great for the vendor, though. 

The above may apply to engines ---- specifically, the Loncin/Toro engine. Maybe Loncin's crankshaft is "exclusive" to the particular Loncin/Toro engine that is in the 38757 blower. That is, no other Loncin engine or Loncin engine powered piece of equipment has the 38757 Loncin/Toro's crankshaft. That exclusivity costs the consumer dearly, while enriching "Toro". 

But there are possible ways around this that both you and I have mentioned. The Predaor is very inexpensive compared to the Toro's. Again, one has to carefully consider ALL the options, including the value of poking Toro in the pocketbook.

Edit:
Necessity is the mother of invention (and creative solutions to practical problems such as lack of adequate funds).


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## Herve (Nov 4, 2020)

I remembered somethng from last night when I measured the drive pulley. What I remembered has turned out to be fairly important when it comes to a possible adapter. First some photos of the drive pulley. 













































Below is the kicker. Now, what else do we know is 1" OD?










Depth of 3/4" shaft port.









Depth of 1" washer+ bolt port. This is how the pulley is secured to the end of the output shaft. 









What is the thickness of the "wall" between the two ports? 1.96" - 0.87" - 0.62" = 0.47"

Goal: Convert the OEM pulley into an adapter. 

1. Buy another OEM pulley for around $20 US.
2. Cut a carefully- calculated length of the LC175F-2's 1" OD shaft, shortening it appropriately.
3. Drill a suitably-sized hole into the end of the 1" shaft (IMO could be done without removing the crank from the engine, but it's going to be tough to do) and thread it to match that of a much longer pulley-securing bolt. 
4. Install the original pulley's 1" ID port over the 1" output shaft. Drill a small hole in the old pulley, over the center of the length of 1" shaft inside the port, perpendicular to the shaft, thread it and screw into it a locking screw that will lock it to the shaft's keyway or flattened surface. 
5. Buy or manufacture a short piece of 3/4" shaft that has an end-to-end key-way that is suitable to insert into the new pulley. 
6. Drill a hole through the 3/4" shaft, end to end, through which a much longer securing bolt will be pushed. No need to thread it.
7. Install the short piece of 3/4" shaft into the old-pulley-now-adapter. 
8. Install the new pulley on the other end of the short 3/4" shaft. 
9. Install the new, much longer securing bolt through the OEM 1" OD washer, through the wall of the new pulley, through the hole through the 3/4" shaft and screw it into the newly threaded hole in the 1" shaft.
10. Tighten securing bolt to specified torque. 

If I really wanted to use the LC175F-2, I'd take the engine apart and get the crankshaft turned and machined. But I'd first get a good, locked in estimate to do that. Maybe it would be very expensive. If that was the case, I'd go the above adapter route .............. IF there was enough space between where the 1" shaft exits the engine and exactly where the pulley is supposed to be to allow the installation of the adapter plus short shaft plus new pulley, which, now that I look at it, is not enough! Well, it was fun thinking about how it might be done. You either disassemble in order to machine the 1" crank and pay whatever it costs, or find an engine that already has the correct output shaft. Again, it was fun just thinking about. 

But wait! Maybe there is _another _alternative! Buy a 1.25" ID, or very slightly smaller, thick-wall, hard-steel pipe and press it onto/over the old pulley's 3/4" ID / 1.25" OD port end. The tighter the better. Heat it up first if it's too tight; or super-cool the pulley, or both. Cut off any excess. Maybe put a couple of pins through both the pipe and pulley, just to keep both from moving in any direction. Maybe weld the inner end of the pipe to the wall that keeps the belt from jumping off the pulley. 

But wait! Maybe use a loose ring with a conical center instead of a piece of pipe and fillet weld between the ring and pulley, from back to front, completely. 

Whichever method, now increase the 3/4" hole to 1" and, voila, it will fit a 1"shaft. 

But before doing any of this, make sure the hole in the shaft is the right size and thread for the OEM bolt. 

Install on shaft. Screw in securing bolt. Done.

There. See what I mean about necessity being the mother of invention? (This is how a happy retired person kills some time on a lazy Thursday afternoon.)


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## jherbicide (Oct 14, 2021)

Maybe I’m missing something, but why not just machine the whole pulley to 1” and have a Keyway cut into it? Then use an old fashioned keystock to secure?

I don’t think the bolt/thread is any big concern, you’d just need to have a spacer made to set the pulley depth correctly. This should be “elementary” stuff for a machine shop.

Edit: ahh I see why that wouldn’t work. I suppose what I would do is weld a collar onto the “skinny” part of the pulley so it could be machined and keyed to 1”.

Or, just have a new pulley machined from bar stock or match a proper size industrial pulley accordingly.


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## Herve (Nov 4, 2020)

jherbicide said:


> Maybe I’m missing something, but why not just machine the whole pulley to 1” and have a Keyway cut into it? Then use an old fashioned keystock to secure?
> 
> I don’t think the bolt/thread is any big concern, you’d just need to have a spacer made to set the pulley depth correctly. This should be “elementary” stuff for a machine shop.
> 
> ...


Yes, that last one could be done, too. 

I'm really clueless when it comes to what machine shops charge for anything. Is it all by the hour? 

What do you think creating a whole new pulley would cost, versus welding a collar on, and expanding the hole in, the old one (which I think would be inexpensive)?


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## nitehawk55 (Sep 9, 2021)

Local high school with a machine shop ? They like taking on projects.


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## jherbicide (Oct 14, 2021)

If they can weld a spacer and bore out the hole, that would be cheapest I would think, but that’s just my guess. There would be less hours involved; typically they charge for time and material.


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## Herve (Nov 4, 2020)

Weld this set screw collar onto the 3/4" end of the pulley by welding and filling-in the evenly-distributed space between the set screw collar and the pulley.





DAYTON COLLAR,SHAFT,1 1/2 IN - Shaft Collars - GGF4X228 | 4X228 - Grainger, Canada


Find your DAYTON COLLAR,SHAFT,1 1/2 IN at Grainger Canada, formerly Acklands-Grainger. We have been Canada's premiere industrial supplier for over 125 years with superior service and quality.




www.grainger.ca




After it's welded there has been created an end that is 2.25" OD, rather the 1.25" OD. The diameter will be slightly larger than the 2" OD of the pulley's belt guide. Then drill the 1" hole and machine a key-way. Sound reasonable?


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## jherbicide (Oct 14, 2021)

Herve said:


> Weld this set screw collar onto the 3/4" end of the pulley by welding and filling-in the evenly-distributed space between the set screw collar and the pulley.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes; my only concern is you (they) would need to take extra caution on welding the collar to the pulley, as it would need to be welded right on the pulley’s belt guide edge. Certainly not impossible. 

It would be better to machine that spacer down (or from appropriate round bar stock) so the OD is smaller than the pulley OD, say 1.75”, so the weld could be done away (under) from the belt guide edge.


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## Herve (Nov 4, 2020)

jherbicide said:


> Yes; my only concern is you (they) would need to take extra caution on welding the collar to the pulley, as it would need to be welded right on the pulley’s belt guide edge. Certainly not impossible.
> 
> It would be better to machine that spacer down (or from appropriate round bar stock) so the OD is smaller than the pulley OD, say 1.75”, so the weld could be done away (under) from the belt guide edge.


The length of the 1.25" OD "nipple" over which the 1.5" ID collar will be welded is about 15/16". Let's call it 1". The collar is 3/4" wide. Here's how I'd do the welding.

-- Place the collar on the center a 6x6x1/8" steel plate and tack-weld it into position with one tiny tack.
-- Place the pulley, nipple down, into the center of the collar and clamp it into position so that a sandwich is created -- a sandwich which, as a whole, can be easily re-positioned according to need.
-- There will now be a 1/4" wide x 7/16" deep space, a valley, between the top edge of the collar and the wall that keeps the belt on the pulley. Fill that space with weld to the top of the wall. The collar will be 1/8" higher than the wall.
-- Grind off the tack weld that secures the nipple-end to the plate and move away the plate.
-- Now you will see the end-face of the collar and the end face of the nipple perfectly aligned. There will be a 1/4" wide x 3/4"" deep space (a valley) between the 1.25" OD of the nipple and the 1-1/2" ID of the collar right down to where the recently-applied weld is in front of the pulley's belt wall. Fill that entire space with weld slightly above the faces of the nipple and collar. Grind that excess off even/flat.
-- Expand hole from 3/4" to 1" and cut key-way.
-- Done.
Sound reasonable and easy to do? I think an experienced welder could do the welding in, what, 10 or 20 minutes? An expereinced millwright could drill the 1" hole and cut the key-way in maybe the same? You tell me. Maybe the welding/millright class at a high or trade school would be the best bet, as nitehawk55 has suggested.

(If I was still working at a power-generating station, I would hand the pulley, collar and above instructions to a friend of mine in the maintenance shop and ask him to see what he could do. I'd go home the same day with the modified pulley. Too bad that option is no longer available.)


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## jherbicide (Oct 14, 2021)

Herve said:


> The length of the 1.25" OD "nipple" over which the 1.5" ID collar will be welded is about 15/16". Let's call it 1". The collar is 3/4" wide. Here's how I'd do the welding.
> 
> -- Place the collar on the center a 6x6x1/8" steel plate and tack-weld it into position with one tiny tack.
> -- Place the pulley, nipple down, into the center of the collar and clamp it into position so that a sandwich is created -- a sandwich which, as a whole, can be easily re-positioned according to need.
> ...


Yes that would work fine. I think the time estimates are pretty close. I do think you’d want to alternating “stitch” weld the collar, alternating sides to keep it from distorting. Maybe spread that few minutes of welding out over a half hour or so to keep it from getting too hot (and also distorting)

They probably won’t be able to fill the 3/4” deep gap, but they also really don’t need to. Just as long as the collar is securely attached to the pulley.


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## Herve (Nov 4, 2020)

I should have mentioned that the pulley's two belt-guide walls are a hair shy of 1/8" thick each, which IMO is quite substantial. Once the equal space all around the collar and pulley are weld-filled, the end thus created is going to be very, very strong. The wall thickness around the present 3/4" hole is 0.25". The "combination" wall-thickness surrounding the new 1" hole will be 2.25" - 1" = 1.25" divided by 2 = 0.625" Now, that's beefy! If one wanted to spend some more money, one could have the collar OD turned down so that the final thickness of the wall surrounding the 1" hole would be, say, you-name-it, instead of 0.625". For one you-name-it example, turn it down to the same diameter as the belt-wall -- 2". Nice and neat and still plenty beefy at a wall thickness of 0.5". 

Planning this out in detail makes me want to make one of these pulleys for an engine with a 1" output shaft. Maybe even buy a spare pulley and do it, "just in case". But I'm going to put new parts in my engine and continue to use it for, hopefully, more than another year(!) , so I don't need a spare pulley.........yet. I pray that my engine does not turn out to be a lemon.

While doing a bit more study of the Predator 212cc engine (built by Loncin), I stumbled on the following video. It is very informative about the differences between the hemi (my engine's design) and non-hemi versions. What I found particulary interesting was the trouble the video's creator had with the hemi design, while never having any problem with the non-hemi design. He gets into this toward the end of the video. This has certainly been my experience with my Loncin/Toro hemi 252cc engine. If I were to buy a 212cc Loncin to replace my engine, it would have to be a non-hemi.





This 212cc engine is apparently extremely popular for vehicles of various kinds and, therefore, is very popular for modding. A minor modification can easily bring up its hp to that magic 8hp. There are tons of videos describing these mods in great detail.


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## Herve (Nov 4, 2020)

As I sit here typing, waiting for delivery of my engine parts, one question keeps dogging me. What will I do if my engine turns out to be an irreparable lemon?

No, I'm not going to get really upset and depressed and take my old 1-year-old non-functioning machine to the eco station. Instead, I'll buy a new, low cost engine and modify the shroud, not anything about the new engine (except maybe install a remote throttle control on the handle).

In fact, if I could turn the clock back only one week, rather than buy "genuine Toro" parts, I'd do some variation of one or more of the options below. It would be a very fun, very practical project, as long as our Overlords don't decide that this type of unsafe, dangerous behavior should be illegal and pass laws making it so. 

If I could have found a suitable engine locally, there is a very good chance that my snow-blowing machine would be available for service today. (Of course doing this would have definitely voided the wonderful Toro 2-year warranty! )




































And the likely result? Below is a Quick Chute model that has had a new engine installed. (I wonder how many hp the paddle system can actually handle, don't you?)


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## Herve (Nov 4, 2020)

Ever since I ordered parts, I had been studying which Chinese companies make which engines. Again, Loncin is one manufacturer, Chongqing Dajiang Power Equipment Co. is another. I believe that Dajiang manufactures the non-hemi version of the Predator 212cc. They definitely manufacture the 212cc Power Fist (DH212) and 208cc Pro Point (DH208) engines sold here in Canada by Princess Auto, which, as most Canadians already know, is Canada's version of "Harbor Freight". Here PA's engine selection today:


https://www.princessauto.com/en/searchresults?Nr=product.active%3A1&Ntt=engine*&Nty=1&No=0&Nrpp=50&Rdm=727&searchType=simple&type=search



I studied the parts manuals and service manuals for the Dajiang 208cc 6.5hp and 212cc 7.5hp engines, focusing on the layout of the crankcase cover, shaft specifications, base dimensions, etc. I determined that there were/are several engines that can be substituted for the OEM (Loncin) Toro in the 38757 blower.

I also determined that whereas the "Toro" has the aluminum block's built-in sleeve bearings (in other words, no separate bearings of any kind), the Power Fist 208 and Pro Point 212cc engine have typical pressed-in roller bearings to support the ends of the crank. The Toro engine has a camshaft that has plastic teeth. The two above engines have steel cams with steel gears, as well as low-oil ignition shut-off. The Toro does not. (In order to quickly get my unit back in service, I have temporarily disabled the low-oil ingnition shut-off. Maybe I'll get it back in service next summer.)

Because Princess Auto has a no-hassle return policy, I decided to buy the Power Fist 212cc, 7.5hp engine and see if it would fit. In short, it fit very well. I have only had to modify the shroud a bit and transfer the Toro's carburetor cover/corner, exhaust manifold, ignition coil, primer, recoil mechanism with its longer cord and metal top-cover to the new engine.




































I also installed a short throttle control that sticks out of the back of the engine compartment just a few inches. Nice to be able to idle the motor when not blowing snow. To keep snow out of the engine compartment, I put some black Gorilla tape over the small space between the right side of the gas tank and shroud.









Below are some photos of the new engine in the machine, which is sitting on our dining room table – where my wife suggested I do the installation, as long as I protected the table top very well.




























Because the Pro Point 208cc was on sale for $150, when normally $300, plus it had 12v electric start, I bought a second engine from PA to examine. In short, it would fit, but the location of the 12v electric start control panel, and the fact that it is 12v rather than 110, made it less attractive than the 7.5 hp unit already in the unit. I determined that the 110v unit from the Toro could not in any way be mated to the 12v gearbox. Too bad. But because it was so inexpensive, I have not yet returned it to PA. Maybe I'll keep it as a spare. Even my wife is supportive of this. We'll see what happens with the new engine. (Meanwhile, I have a 110v starter that has been used twice to start the OEM engine. If you buy this from Toro, in Canada, you'll pay a stone's throw from $300 CAD. Maybe I'll sell it. If anyone knows of a piece of power equipment that has a 212cc engine with 110v starter, please let me know. Perhaps I can buy the parts necessary to make use of the Toro starter on the Power Fist engine.)









It was at this point that I managed to cancel my order for parts, without any penalty because a couple of parts were still back-ordered.

In two of the photos above you can see the Toro's engine block (waiting for parts), which I compared to the new engine's shaft, shaft length, height; as well as the bottom plate. I decided that that point to actually install the engine in the blower.

In closing, I ordered the parts that I felt were necessary to be replaced in the OEM engine. However, there might be other problems with the engine that I do not YET know about. For example, I'm not sure of the OEM engine head's combustion chamber and valves are up to spec. What would I have done if I had installed a new crank, connecting rod and piston pin and the engine still did not run correctly? Would I then have gone through troubleshooting and perhaps have then found out that the compression was low for some reason, etc.? Would I have then thrown more good money after bad? Maybe the OEM engine is a classic "lemon".

Anyway, the new engine cost me at least $50 less than what I would have paid for parts for the Loncin/Toro engine. With the new engine I have eliminated any possibility that the "old" engine might still have not run correctly after the new parts were installed. The new mongrel blower runs grrreat!

Thanks for all the support that some of you have given to me since the beginning of my little journey down Toro's Reality Road. I really do appreciate it.


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## sledman8002002 (Jan 20, 2021)

Herve said:


> our dining room table – where my wife suggested I do the installation


Good stuff! (and good for you!) Nice job Herve, good detail. I bought one of those 212's for $150 myself not too long ago. For us here in Canada it's basically the best price we can find for a clone.
I think you're better off going this route as well.


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## nitehawk55 (Sep 9, 2021)

Looks good Herve , I think you did the right thing all things considered.
Let us know how it works when you get a chance to test it in snow.
Cheers !!
Keep an eye if that 212 goes on sale at PA , you can likely get a refund on the difference as they go on sale quite often.


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## nitehawk55 (Sep 9, 2021)

You have a very understanding wife to let you do that in the dinning room !!


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## sledman8002002 (Jan 20, 2021)

Boy I'll say, a blower on the table would not be welcome in my place....


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## jherbicide (Oct 14, 2021)

How did the pulley/shaft work out?


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## groomerz (Feb 7, 2015)

Good job swapping engines. Sounds like you did some chonda research. 

Does princess let you purchase no questions asked extended warranty like harbor freight does


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Herve (Nov 4, 2020)

jherbicide said:


> How did the pulley/shaft work out?


The shaft on the new engine has the exact same dimensions as those on the OEM "Toro" engine -- exact same length, exact same diameter, exact same key-way width, depth and length. The OEM pulley fit on the new engine's shaft like a glove and, after the new engine was bolted down to the engine tray, the pulley was positioned perfectly inside the paddle drive-train box.


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## sledman8002002 (Jan 20, 2021)

Hey Herve, me being the preventative maintenance type (its your call but...) you may want to wrap some tin tape around the stretch of the engagement cable that runs past the exhaust to prevent a melt. There was a fellow on here earlier in the year that had a melt issue due to the exhaust blowing on it.


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## Herve (Nov 4, 2020)

sledman8002002 said:


> Hey Herve, me being the preventative maintenance type (its your call but...) you may want to wrap some tin tape around the stretch of the engagement cable that runs past the exhaust to prevent a melt. There was a fellow on here earlier in the year that had a melt issue due to the exhaust blowing on it.


That's a good point. Below is a better angle of the situation. Looks to me like the exhaust is going to just squeak by the cable, but I'll keep an eye on it and decide if further measures are required. 

The muffler on the OEM engine is a rather long, flat thing. I believe it was designed this way to keep the area under the metal cover relatively warm and to perhaps pre-heat the carburetor's intake air a bit prior to combustion. I believe the exhaust is routed in a U-shape fashion throughout the muffler, which turns the muffler into a bit of an exhaust-cooler. The next time I blow some snow I'll put my hand in the exhaust just to the outside of the cable to see how hot it is and, again, take it from there. 

When you say "tin tape", what exactly do you mean? Is there a specific product you have in mind, or is this a generic term for, say, any piece of sheet metal that might be wrapped around the cable, shielding it from the exhaust, but without inhibiting its movement in any way? (I'm thinking two hose clamps on the handle, between the handle and the cable, above and below the path of exhaust, that would secure a piece of sheet metal that would block or deflect any exhaust that might directly impinge on the cable.)


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## jherbicide (Oct 14, 2021)

A unintended side effect is I really like the look of blue motor both contrasting and matching the rest of the machine.

I do agree with @sledman8002002 on that cable. That’s gonna get hot there.

See if you can reroute to the bottom of the handle frame, or use something like this:

Thermo-Tec 14002 Thermo-Shield Radiant Heat Protection, 1.5" x 15' Roll https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00029KC2...abc_T73CRN56T93FW32YV8BZ?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1


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## Herve (Nov 4, 2020)

jherbicide said:


> A unintended side effect is I really like the look of blue motor both contrasting and matching the rest of the machine.
> 
> I do agree with @sledman8002002 on that cable. That’s gonna get hot there.
> 
> ...


I'm thinking about hose-clamping one or two de-threaded 1/4" coupling nuts to the handle to temporarily divert the path of the cable to a cooler place. 


https://www.homedepot.ca/product/paulin-1-4-inch-20-hex-coupling-nut-fully-threaded-zinc-plated-unc/1000131261


Pass the cable through them. I'm not sure if the fittings at the ends of the cable can pass through the unions. If not, maybe cut a slot through the length of the nuts, pass the cable through the slots, then turn the slots in the nuts toward the handle before clamping). This should hold the cable out of the exhaust stream significantly more, yet allow it to do its job freely.


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## jherbicide (Oct 14, 2021)

Herve said:


> I'm thinking about hose-clamping one or two de-threaded 1/4" coupling nuts to the handle to temporarily divert the path of the cable to a cooler place.
> 
> 
> https://www.homedepot.ca/product/paulin-1-4-inch-20-hex-coupling-nut-fully-threaded-zinc-plated-unc/1000131261
> ...


You could always do the same thing with larger coupling nuts (say 3/8"). You'll certainly want to measure the little crimp fittings on the end of the cable to see what size you'll need,

You could also do the same thing with a little section of brass or iron pipe; might be cheaper.


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## Herve (Nov 4, 2020)

jherbicide said:


> You could always do the same thing with larger coupling nuts (say 3/8"). You'll certainly want to measure the little crimp fittings on the end of the cable to see what size you'll need,
> 
> You could also do the same thing with a little section of brass or iron pipe; might be cheaper.


First de-thread, then split a 1/2" coupling nut in two, cutting legthwise. Place each split piece over the cable, against the handle. Hose-clamp each piece. Done.


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## jherbicide (Oct 14, 2021)

Herve said:


> First de-thread, then split a 1/2" coupling nut in two, cutting legthwise. Place each split piece over the cable, against the handle. Hose-clamp each piece. Done.


I think it would be _much_ less work to just undo the cable fitting at the handle, slide the nut/pipe over it, clamp and call it good.

Normally when the handles are disengaged you can twist and pull those fittings right out of their spot on the handle.


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## jherbicide (Oct 14, 2021)

Wait... Is that a cable or a metal rod?

If it is a rod that is just painted black, you probably won't want to reroute it, but you could still shield it where it sits as we discussed. Just use brass/iron pipe in the proper size that will fit over the end of the rod.


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## nitehawk55 (Sep 9, 2021)

Would have been good if Toro saw this when they designed the machine


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## jherbicide (Oct 14, 2021)

nitehawk55 said:


> Would have been good if Toro saw this when they designed the machine


Methinks with the factory/stock engine, the exhaust is higher or lower than the handlebars.


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## nitehawk55 (Sep 9, 2021)

jherbicide said:


> Methinks with the factory/stock engine, the exhaust is higher or lower than the handlebars.


Unless they have recently changed the design the stock machine has/ had the exhaust hitting that cable and burning it.
There was a thread about it not too long ago.
This one I think...... www.snowblowerforum.com/threads/toro-821-single-stage-issue-control-cable-release.158617/#post-1791346


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## jherbicide (Oct 14, 2021)

nitehawk55 said:


> Unless they have recently changed the design the stock machine has/ had the exhaust hitting that cable and burning it.
> There was a thread about it not too long ago.
> This one I think...... www.snowblowerforum.com/threads/toro-821-single-stage-issue-control-cable-release.158617/#post-1791346


Yeah your situation actually looks better than stock after looking at the pic in that thread. It appears to be a direct shot!

Big oversight by Toro…


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## Herve (Nov 4, 2020)

nitehawk55 said:


> Unless they have recently changed the design the stock machine has/ had the exhaust hitting that cable and burning it.
> There was a thread about it not too long ago.
> This one I think...... www.snowblowerforum.com/threads/toro-821-single-stage-issue-control-cable-release.158617/#post-1791346





jherbicide said:


> Yeah your situation actually looks better than stock after looking at the pic in that thread. It appears to be a direct shot!
> 
> Big oversight by Toro…


I don't know how long ago the design change was made, but the exhaust port used to be pointed at the operator, (looking down from above the muffler, 90 degrees ccw to where it points now). Too many people operating this blower may have dropped dead for Toro's comfort, so the change was made to the side discharge. Being an operator who wants to stay alive for a few more years, I think this was a very good idea! 👍

Anyway, the solution to the situation is remarkably simple, a shown in the photos below. The cable still operates smoothly routed underneath the whatever-you-want-to-call-it handle hardware that allows one to loosen that other whatchamacallit knob that allows the former to be pulled out from the handle, allowing the top part of the handle to fold forward. The zip-tie, which does not touch the calbe at all, prevents the cable from jumping over the whatchamacallit and will not slide down the silver thing because the silver thing protrudes outward slightly more the more it goes down the handle, to where it takes a hard right turn through the handle. 

The paddle on-off still works great and no more worry about exhaust burning the nice plastic covering on the cable or thin, flexible rod, take your pick. When I want to fold down the handle, I'll just cut the tie and re-install a new one after the handle is restored to full-erect length. I've got a package of 100 ties, so by the time I get to 10 left, I'll be pushing up daisies.

BTW, today was pretty cold, so I thought I'd start up the little devil. Set choke full. Push in ignition key. Set throttle full. Two primer pumps. Pull D-handle briskly. Started on first pull, just like the OEM engine did. Nice. I'll see how it starts at -35C.


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## Herve (Nov 4, 2020)

jherbicide said:


> A unintended side effect is I really like the look of blue motor both contrasting and matching the rest of the machine.
> ...............


Did you notice that the blue of the gas tank pretty much matches the blue in the "Power Clear" label beneath/to the side of it on the shroud? I noticed that for the first time today, after reading your comment. It does make it seem that the new engine actually belongs where it is. Even the black Gorilla Tape looks like it belongs there.


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## jherbicide (Oct 14, 2021)

The blue matching was my initial thought, along with the other little bits of blue found on the machine. I also thought about mentioning your executed fix, that should be plenty and not overcomplicated.

Looks like you are now set for the winter. You can thank me if it doesn't snow anytime soon, since I bought a new machine too


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## Herve (Nov 4, 2020)

jherbicide said:


> The blue matching was my initial thought, along with the other little bits of blue found on the machine. I also thought about mentioning your executed fix, that should be plenty and not overcomplicated.
> 
> Looks like you are now set for the winter. You can thank me if it doesn't snow anytime soon, since I bought a new machine too


If it does not snow around here all winter, I'll do a lot more than just thank you. 

What "machine" did you buy?


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## jherbicide (Oct 14, 2021)

I bought the snowmaster 824 QXE. I had a “turn of the millennia” Craftsman/Murray 9/26. It was slow and heavy; 90% of the time I longed for my old curb find Lawnboy/Gilson single stage slinger.

I did a ton of lurking here before I bought. I figured the snowmaster was a good compromise between a “big” one and a single stage. Even the dealer said for what I have to clear the snowmaster is the better choice compared to the bigger 2 stage.


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## sledman8002002 (Jan 20, 2021)

Herve said:


> When you say "tin tape", what exactly do you mean?


This is what I was referring to, been using it for years to protect so many objects/items from excess heat. Namely sleds and ATV plastics, rubber compounds etc. It just plain works. Peel and stick, this stuff is a little thicker than most (due to my supplier), but similiar products are available from Can Tire, auto stores, furnace shops, (used often for duct work sealing).
Your fix is definetly better than before, hopefully it wont bind in the future.
With the tin tape, tear or cut a small amount off the roll, peel the backing off and wrap around the area of need.
Main thing is you are now aware of the 'possible' issue.


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## groomerz (Feb 7, 2015)

Herve said:


> That's a good point. Below is a better angle of the situation. Looks to me like the exhaust is going to just squeak by the cable, but I'll keep an eye on it and decide if further measures are required.
> 
> The muffler on the OEM engine is a rather long, flat thing. I believe it was designed this way to keep the area under the metal cover relatively warm and to perhaps pre-heat the carburetor's intake air a bit prior to combustion. I believe the exhaust is routed in a U-shape fashion throughout the muffler, which turns the muffler into a bit of an exhaust-cooler. The next time I blow some snow I'll put my hand in the exhaust just to the outside of the cable to see how hot it is and, again, take it from there.
> 
> ...


Herve 
I have a fleet of 12 that I maintain. They are 2 seasons old. Just got them ready for this winter and a few machines have signs of melted cable but most don’t.

I’m not doing anything as I don’t feel it will damage steel cable. Just looks

Older toro 2000 machines and the last generation power clears ran bare cables. No Issues 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Herve (Nov 4, 2020)

jherbicide said:


> The blue matching was my initial thought, along with *the other little bits of blue* found on the machine. ..........
> 
> Looks like you are now set for the winter. ...........


Yes, I just noticed that the Quick Chute handle is also a pretty close-matching blue color! Nothing like being color-coordinated, eh? I'm sure the neighbors are all going to notice.

Have a very happy snow-season, all!


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## Herve (Nov 4, 2020)

Our area of Edmonton had around 8" of snow over the last 14 hours or so. 

At -15C the mongrel blower started on first pull and I was able to clear the snow from the driveway, sidewalk and back deck in around 15 minutes, which is longer than usual because, before the snowfall, our pitched driveway was covered with a layer of slick ice which made it necessary for me to really watch my step as I operated the blower. Even though I had Canadian Tire ice cleats on, I almost hit the concrete a couple of times. Pretty scary.

I also blew the snow of my recently-widowed neighbor's driveway and sidewalk, which took approximately the same amount of time. 

In short, the blower performed beautifully with its new Chongqing Dajiang-manufactured, DH212, "Power Fist"-labeled engine. What surprised me was that I could not notice any difference in performance between it and the Loncin/Toro engine, even though the displacement of the former is 212cc versus the latter's 252cc (but maybe the OEM lemon engine never did perform up to snuff). The Gorilla tape also worked very well at keeping the snow out of the engine compartment. 

When finishded, before closing the garage door, I allowed the engine to run for a few minutes in order to hopefully melt any snow that made its way into the engine compartment and onto the throttle control mechanism. 

The re-routed paddle-on-off cable worked perfectly, and never even got warm let alone burned.

If the blower performs for the rest of the winter as it did today, I will be a very happy camper.  (I'm now seriously considering returning the 208cc engine, but it's so inexpensive that I haven't made a move yet. "Just in case" I keep saying to myself.)


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## Herve (Nov 4, 2020)

BTW, there is an IMO interesting distribution chain below the "Mothership" Chongqing Dajiang Power Equipment Co. If you go to the Mothership website,





CHONGQING DAJIANG POWER EQUIPMENT CO., LTD.


Chongqing Dajiang Power Equipment Co., Ltd., is located in Chongqing－the famous power city in the Southwest of China. DUCAR and DAJIANG are the registered brands of Dajiang Power Company.Since the foundation in 1993, Ducar has been striving for: Dedicated to Customer Satisfaction, Unique...



www.cccme.cn




and click on the "Official website" button in the "Company Profile" section, you are taken to the "Ducar" website:





重庆大江动力设备制造有限公司_机械五金


重庆大江动力设备制造有限公司-庆大江动力设备制造有限公司简称“大江动力”，成立于2004年，中国通机行业成长最快的企业之一，国际化的综合性企业，宗申上市公司子公司、重庆通机行业四小龙之一，年出口金额九亿人民币。致力于汽油发动机户外工具类产品的设计、制造、服务，是世界500强之一的




www.ducar.cc





Ducar is actually a quite well-known company -- not nearly as wel known as "Predator", but pretty well known -- among so-called "karting" enthusiasts. For example, if you Google "Ducar 212cc", here's what you get.


Ducar 212cc - Google Search



Behold all the places that sell non-modded and hot-rodded 212cc "Ducar" engines for karts and mini-bikes, etc. Some of these engines put out mid-teens hp. But to me the important thing is that many of these places sell parts that will fit my 212cc "Power Fist" engine ................. and they're amazingly inexpensive. Hopefully my engine will never need any parts in my remaining lifetime, but it's nice to know they're available.


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## LouC (Dec 5, 2016)

Wow that’s a great follow up, nice to see someone work around less than good warrantee follow through! I do like Toro single stage machines so much so that I’ve collected enough spares for this one to keep it going just about forever lol (spares: complete Suzuki 5hp 2 stroke engine, electric starter kit, carb, ignition coil, muffler). The 2 stroke machines are very light and maneuverable, and don’t need much maintenance either. A set of paddles & scraper every 4/5 seasons is about all you’ll need.


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## Herve (Nov 4, 2020)

Here is what I think is an interesting discovery I made on Princess Auto -- the rather innocent looking "SpeeCo" 212cc engine:


https://www.princessauto.com/en/212cc-gas-engine/product/PA0009043415



Is this innocent looking engine in reality the famous Harbor Freight Hemi Predator? I say a strong "maybe". Here's my evidence.

First, part of one of PA's photos of the engine. Notice the number circled in red. I see part of a 2, followed by 10FA.









Second, doing a google search for "SpeeCo 212cc", I find the same engine on the following site, where the engine is described, in part, as SPEECO 210FA, etc.:





New Arrivals | www.surpluscenter.com


New Arrivals, HIGH BACK MOWER SEAT New, MILSCO black padded vinyl seat with plastic frame. SPECIFICATIONS Mounting Pattern 6"



www.surpluscenter.com





Third, doing a google search for "Hemi Model 210FA", one of the results I get is the following ebay listing:








Predator Harbor Freight Loncin Hemi Model 210FA 212cc 7 HP PARTS- CAMSHAFT ONLY | eBay


Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Predator Harbor Freight Loncin Hemi Model 210FA 212cc 7 HP PARTS- CAMSHAFT ONLY at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



www.ebay.com




for "Predator Harbor Freight Loncin Hemi Model 210FA 212cc 7 HP PARTS -- CAMSHAFT ONLY"
(It is useful to read the item description.)

And





NEW Connecting Rod - 210FA HEMI HARBOR FREIGHT PREDATOR 60363 212cc


NEW Connecting Rod - 210FA HEMI HARBOR FREIGHT PREDATOR 60363 212cc



www.wdesertw.com




which is an ad for:
"NEW Connecting Rod - 210FA HEMI HARBOR FREIGHT PREDATOR *60363* 212cc"

The video I posted previously of a man doing a comparison between the Hemi and non-Hemi versions of the Predator specifically mentions the Hemi being model number 60363, as well as inadvertently showing the model number etched onto the end of the engine "G210FA" (whether the PA SpeeCo engine has the "G" hidden is for someone else to find out):









The other differences mentioned in the video (gas tank shape; straight line bottom edge of the carb corner cover; the cast aluminum valve cover, etc.) lead me to believe that the Princess Auto Loncin/SpeeCo 212cc engine is quite possibly identical to the Hemi version of the 212cc Loncin/Predator model 60363 in all ways except label. So all those Canadians who want to buy a Hemi Predator engine have to do is walk into Princess Auto and "maybe" buy the "SpeeCo" 212cc engine. 

Edit: Today I returned the 208cc Pro Point engine to Princess Auto. While there, I examined the SpeeCo 212cc engine. The model number etched on the engine was 210FA. No letter G before the number 2. I don't know how significant that differece is, but in every other respect the engine looks identical to the Predator Hemi 212cc. Canadians interested in getting their hands on the Predator hemi should, IMO, buy the SpeeCo, examine it thoroughly, and, if it is not identical to the Predator, there is always the option to return it, without hassle.


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## nitehawk55 (Sep 9, 2021)

That's the hemi style , you can tell by the valve cover shape.


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## nitehawk55 (Sep 9, 2021)

Herve , came across this YT Vid , thought you might find it interesting . Look at the comments as well.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_WWmyUF4ho


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## Herve (Nov 4, 2020)

nitehawk55 said:


> Herve , came across this YT Vid , thought you might find it interesting . Look at the comments as well.
> www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_WWmyUF4ho


You were right. I found that video and comments very interesting. I have no doubt that had I continued to operate my Loncin Lemon engine with its knock, the rod would have similarly failed and probably something from it would have hit the block, rendering it useless, too. (Not that that matters now.)

My unit was sold by the dearler with oil in the crankcase. I'm surprised that the creator of this video did not ascertain and report to its viewers whether the unit in his video was sold with or without oil in the crankcase. That would have been an important thing to report to viewers, don't you think, rather than let anti-owner speculation rule the roost?

The underlying assumption of practically everyone is that there are no "manufacturing defects" in any of the myriad of parts that comprise "the engines" that Toro buys from Chinese manufacturers and installs in its blowers. I know that this is not true. But at least I got between 4 and 5 hours of run-time out of mine, rather than the "during its first minute of use" that the owner of the unit in the video got out of his machine. 

If I were the owner of the machine in the video, I'd definitely keep the electric starter for re-sale, as I have. I also have added a significant number of practically-new fasteners to my collection of fasteners, as well as a few other parts that I might have some use for in the future. (How do you think that open crankcase would look on a fireplace mantle as a technological art object? I'll be running that idea by my wife for her approval.)

(BTW, just exactly HOW does an owner prove to Toro Central a "manufacturing defect" in his unit's engine, especially when the owner attempting to make such a determination for himself voids Toro's warranty by so doing, and, in addition, Toro Customer Service informs its customers, in writing, that "We cannot control what our Authorized Service Dealer(s) say or do"?)


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## nitehawk55 (Sep 9, 2021)

I found it pretty interesting too and thought of you as soon as I saw it , wasn't looking but it popped up oddly enough.
Yes the fellow should have been clear about the cause , I think he was doing it for a friend but I was wondering if he had contacted Toro as you did about warranty (not that he would have got it) clean oil in the crankcase or not 😋

Lets face it QC out of China is a crap shoot , there is going to be the odd one get by that is not right such as yours was, I really don't think it matters much which company builds it.
The fact the fellow who bought this at a big box store and didn't know enough to put oil in it or at least check it shows his/her level of mechanical knowledge , unfortunate but there you go......same as straight gassing a chainsaw which happens a lot.

Keep your extra parts , they may come in handy at some point . You can tell your wife I have a 5 foot cross cut saw , 7 Swedish made axes and an old McCulloch 1010 over my fireplace and my golden retriever never complains about it 

Toro needs to listen better to customers , not just make a quick decision on warranty and slam the door . In reality for making a customer happy for the little cost to them than the number of people he turns away when sharing his bad experience costs them way more. There are always exceptions such as yours and the rules are not cast in stone.


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## Herve (Nov 4, 2020)

nitehawk55 said:


> I found it pretty interesting too and thought of you as soon as I saw it , wasn't looking but it popped up oddly enough.
> Yes the fellow should have been clear about the cause , I think he was doing it for a friend but I was wondering if he had contacted Toro as you did about warranty (not that he would have got it) clean oil in the crankcase or not 😋
> 
> Lets face it QC out of China is a crap shoot , there is going to be the odd one get by that is not right such as yours was, I really don't think it matters much which company builds it.
> ...


I don't mean to quibble, but, again, I don't think whether or not the unit was sold with or without oil was determined with an adequate degree of certainty by the maker of the video. Again, I think that that is extremely important to find out, especially when the plan is to make a Youtube video about the engine. A failed rod may possibly have caused the damage seen in the video, not a lack of oil. How dirty does/can oil get in "the first minute"? All he had to do was ask the owner where he bought it and either go or call there to find out for himself whether this model is sold with or without oil in the crankcase. I don't think that that relatively simple task is asking too much. 

My Loncin crankcase is a bit smaller than a 5 foot cross cut saw, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed.


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## nitehawk55 (Sep 9, 2021)

From the way the material was welded to the crank journal I would think it was run without oil . The machining of the conn rod would have to be awful tight to create that much friction and heat but it is possable. Unfortunate we don't know for sure.

He could have had that crankcase welded and I'm sure the crank would have cleaned up OK with a bit of work . New rod would have fixed it.


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## Herve (Nov 4, 2020)

Well, I came to the forum today to comment that the Princess Auto engine that I installed in our blower goes on sale on Tuesday for $140, so I'm wishing upon a star to get a $60 refund, which will make the decision to replace the OEM engine even more economically sound. But I noticed at the top of the forum that someone bought a Toro 721e with a 212cc "blown engine", and that some 212cc hemi Predator parts fixed it. Nice little bedtime story, I must say.








Toro 212cc crankshaft is the same as...


Hi, I joined here last week looking for an answer to if a Predator crankshaft and rod were he same. See I bot a brand new 721e with a blown motor. It was a return and I got it for $50. When I tore down I found the rod bolts had never been tightened from the factory. This destroyed the rod and...




www.snowblowerforum.com





BTW, I'm going to do some simple hp-boosting mods when the weather warms up a bit. A potential refund from PA will pay for almost all of that. My first step has been to purchase an adjustable main jet for Tecumseh engines. After a bit of SAE 5/16-24 thread-adjustment, it's going to fit fine in an 8M-1-threaded hole. (Here's as photo of the jet installed in the OEM Toro carb's bowl, with an 8M-1 nut inside the bowl holding the jet in place for the photo.)









Edit on Jan. 17. My engine model went on sale a day earlier than I expected for $139.99 at Princess Auto. I went to PA with my original receipt and got back $64, even though PA usually does this for a max of 30 days after purchase. Needless to say, I was very pleased. All hail Princess Auto!!


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## db130 (Feb 16, 2013)

What jet size are you going with for what used to be the main jet? Btw I have a gx390 using the same Tecumseh jet that has been modified for metric use.

Sent from my LM-G820 using Tapatalk


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## Herve (Nov 4, 2020)

db130 said:


> What jet size are you going with for what used to be the main jet? Btw I have a gx390 using the same Tecumseh jet that has been modified for metric use.
> 
> Sent from my LM-G820 using Tapatalk


I'm willing to bet that you are the person who mentioned your adjustable jet here, right? (I quote your post within the following):








Another Bolens 1050 Honda GX390 Repower


Kubota Air Filter Assembly I was concerned about the K&N air filter being somewhat “exposed”, so after some internet searching I bought this new Kubota air filter assembly http://www.smallenginesforless.com/store/p111/Canister_Snorkel.html for a very reasonable amount of money. It even came...




www.mytractorforum.com





I am the person who made the last comment on that thread. Different username than here, but same person.

There is an interesting youtube video made by a person who bought a couple of custom-made adjustable main jets for his blowers. (I contacted the maker of that jet and, in the end, the total price including shipping to Canada was going to be $66 CAD. With the Tecumseh jet the total was about $32 CAD.)




At 1 minute and 49 seconds into that video the narrator mentions the size of the original jet -- 0.028" (he says "0.28", but he must mean 0.028", for obvious reasons) -- as well as the size of the main jet that is supplied with the adjustable jet -- 0.045".

As I wrote in my post on that other forum, I will be receiving a micro-drill set from China, hopefully before I die. I'll first drill the main jet at around 0.033" and see how the engine runs. If I think that bigger will be better, I'll drill a larger hole. 

I'm buying a new Chinese carb that supposedly fits a a 212cc Predator.








7.25US $ 45% OFF|New Carburetor with Gaskets for Harbor Freight Predator 6.5 HP 212Cc Go Kart OHV Engine|Carburetors| - AliExpress


Smarter Shopping, Better Living! Aliexpress.com




www.aliexpress.com





If that is true, it will also fit my 212cc Power Fist engine. The new carb has an adjustable air-fuel mixture screw and an integral fuel-shutoff valve. I will add a primer fitting to the carb and the new main jet "seat" and high speed adjustable main jet.

The guy in that video claims that the top rpm can be moved up to around 4000 rpm with complete safety. (Famous last words, right?) I'll try doing that after installing the adjustable jet combo. Then I'll maybe move on to new valve springs.

So far this is a fun project.


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## db130 (Feb 16, 2013)

Herve said:


> I'm willing to bet that you are the person who mentioned your adjustable jet here, right? (I quote your post within the following):


If you are asking if I am "zcarfan" on MTF, I am not. 

However, I did post that zcarfan thread here more than three years ago:









DIY adjustable main carb jet for Honda+clones


As some of you may be aware, there's a looong thread on the Honda forum about rejetting to get more power, but the rejetting issue is not isolated to Honda engines (it affects clones as well). There are others that use the adjustable jets from waterlooboy but unfortunately, they are not always...




www.snowblowerforum.com





zcarfan mentions drilling out his main jet to 1.18mm to have it work with the Tecumseh jet, which would be a ~.046 jet afterwards.

As for the main jet comes pre-drilled with the other adjustable jet (I have used the ebay jet too, it's made by a forum member here who goes by the name @Waterlooboy2hp), it's supposed to be drilled out to .055":

Adjustable High Speed Needle Assembly | eBay

I currently have the Tecumseh jet on my Toro 6521, I went a little bit more conservative and drilled out the main jet with a #60 drill bit, which would make it about .040"


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## Herve (Nov 4, 2020)

db130 said:


> If you are asking if I am "zcarfan" on MTF, I am not.
> 
> However, I did post that zcarfan thread here more than three years ago:
> 
> ...


So how do you like the adjustable/drilled out main jet combo? Is it much of an improvement over the OEM fixed main jet?


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## db130 (Feb 16, 2013)

It depends on what you're looking to do. If you're dealing with an engine that runs lean when it's cold out, I either drill out the main jet or install a larger fixed jet if I'm planning to keep that engine running at 3600 rpm.

As my 6521 is running at 3900 rpm, having the adjustable jet for fine-tuning is great.


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