# Is there a case for baler belt paddles?



## Tony P. (Jan 9, 2017)

This season I added impeller paddles. Reviewing threads here on the modification, I noticed many posts touting the use of baler belts and other forms of composite reinforced rubber when making paddles. However, at that time and since I have not found any basis for using reinforced rather than solid rubber for the paddles. In fact, I've come to believe reinforced rubber such as baler belts is inferior to solid rubber when making the impeller upgrade.

There's probably something I'm missing so I'd be interested in hearing justification for the advantage of reinforced rubber or its benefit over solid rubber.

BTW, I'm not suggesting reinforced rubber is not an acceptable material, only that it is inferior to solid rubber for impeller paddles.


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## cranman (Jan 23, 2016)

The advantage is that Tractor Supply carries 5' rolls of baler belting in various widths that is easy to work with, cheap, and seems to do the job....one the belting wears away from the auger tub...I don't forsee additional wear on the belting. Snow just isn't abrasive.


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## e.fisher26 (Nov 6, 2016)

I agree, it's more about using what's easy to find


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Prime (Jan 11, 2014)

I am currently using baler belt. Because I found some on E-bay at a clearance price and its easy to work with. I have used many types of belting. Usually whatever is convenient at the time. I have found that reinforced lasts longer for me. The best material I have found is the sidewall out of a light car tire. Its a bit harder to cut and apply but will last very well.Car tire was lasting up to 3 times longer for me over 3/16 inch reinforced belt. What I found is that reinforced belt will not tear as easily if you are picking up some gravel or ice. I have a few gravel driveways that I do and even setting the auger high you will pick up odd stones, and tear pieces out of the flaps. A few tears and its time to change em out. If you do hard surface all the time your rubbers will last much better. 
So I guess its whatever works for you or you can acquire easily at a good price or free. All else fails a truck mud flap is as good as anything.


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## tpenfield (Feb 24, 2015)

Tony P. said:


> This season I added impeller paddles. Reviewing threads here on the modification, I noticed many posts touting the use of baler belts and other forms of composite reinforced rubber when making paddles. However, at that time and since I have not found any basis for using reinforced rather than solid rubber for the paddles. In fact, I've come to believe reinforced rubber such as baler belts is inferior to solid rubber when making the impeller upgrade.
> 
> There's probably something I'm missing so I'd be interested in hearing justification for the advantage of reinforced rubber or its benefit over solid rubber.
> 
> BTW, I'm not suggesting reinforced rubber is not an acceptable material, only that it is inferior to solid rubber for impeller paddles.


Tony,

I'm just wondering how much you have used the machine now that you have put the solid rubber paddles on? It would be interesting to know how long they last. 

Also, a lot depends upon how much of a gap between the impeller and the housing you are needing to close up. I know on my Troy-Bilt the gap was about 5/8". I initially bought an impeller mod kit that had solid rubber paddles. The paddles had to protrude over the edge of the impeller by about 1/2" in order to close up the gap, yet avoid being tight to the housing. They soon fractured due to the flexing that they experienced due to the large gap.

I replaced the solid rubber paddles with fiber reinforced material and they have remained intact ever since.

I would think that if there were a small gap between the impeller blade and the housing, a solid rubber paddle may be OK. If there is a larger gap, then fiber would be needed.

Not sure why you would say solid rubber is superior?


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## Tony P. (Jan 9, 2017)

Prime said:


> I have found that reinforced lasts longer for me. The best material I have found is the sidewall out of a light car tire.


I'm all for free and understand it doesn't always pay to spend a lot on this stuff. Keep on mind though that car tire companies don't think the reinforced sections wear as well as solid rubber. This is demonstrated by the fact the area getting the most wear (tread) is solid rubber not reinforced rubber.


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## detdrbuzzard (Jan 20, 2012)

Tony P. said:


> I'm all for free and understand it doesn't always pay to spend a lot on this stuff. Keep on mind though that car tire companies don't think the reinforced sections wear as well as solid rubber. This is demonstrated by the fact the area getting the most wear (tread) is solid rubber not reinforced rubber.


 the sidewall on car tires isn't designed for the type of wear that the thread encounters. I think that the old paddles form one of my single stage toro's would make for good rubber for an impeller kit


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## cranman (Jan 23, 2016)

the sidewalls of a tire is what experiences the most flex....the tread is what wears, and needs the most rubber, but no flex. Just common sense says you want reinforced rubber for an impeller....go with what you like and are more comfortable with....I'm not about to reinvent the wheel.


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## Tony P. (Jan 9, 2017)

> The sidewalls of a tire is what experiences the most flex....the tread is what wears, and needs the most rubber, but no flex. Just common sense says you want reinforced rubber for an impeller....go with what you like and are more comfortable with....I'm not about to reinvent the wheel.


Cranman, you're absolutely correct in the first part: sidewalls are made of reinforced rubber designed for flex and the tread is made of solid rubber designed for wear. But it's not common sense you want reinforced rubber (designed for flex) in a paddle for two reasons. 

First, the fact is you don't want flex at all. If flexibility was good, the entire impeller would flex. If the rubber flexed as the impeller turned, the amount of gap protected by the paddle would be widened. And, instead of moving the snow into the chute, the paddle would bend, reducing the benefit of the paddle - like hitting a baseball with a soft rubber bat. No, the paddle must be made of hard rubber so the paddles stays firm as the impeller turns and the gap remains as desired.

Second, the impeller paddle can wear out by the constant abrasion from the snow and ice hitting it at around 100mph. Solid rubber is far superior to reinforced rubber at overcoming abrasion as in your tire analogy.


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## Tony P. (Jan 9, 2017)

tpenfield said:


> Tony,
> 
> I'm just wondering how much you have used the machine now that you have put the solid rubber paddles on? It would be interesting to know how long they last.
> 
> ...


I feel confident in saying the primary reason impeller paddles fail is rubber used, the key factors being 1) hardness and 2) tensile strength. If an appropriate rubber is used and the paddles are installed properly, I don't see why paddles shouldn't last at least 100 uses.

In your situation, I suspect the problem was stress not flex. It wasn't that the paddles didn't flex enough, it's that they flexed too much. I'm going to guess (and let me know if I'm correct) that you used 1/4" paddles rather than 3/8". The reason I say this is you are probably correct, the paddles had more stress than they could handle. 

The best solution, though is to have paddles that withstand the stress not give in to it because flexing widens the gap, reducing the effectiveness of the paddles.

I'll sight an example to show why I believe solid rubber is superior to reinforced rubber on impeller paddles.

Snowplow bottom edges frequently have a rubber strip (called skirtboard) to protect both the snowplow and the asphalt. The shirtboard functions like a super-paddle, pushing snow and ice up and out. The skirtboard receives far greater stress and abrasion than impeller paddles. Yet I'm virtually certain all skirtboards are made of solid rubber, generally a combination of SBR and gum.


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## tpenfield (Feb 24, 2015)

Is your point that the right kind of solid rubber in the right thickness will work equally well as a reinforced rubber material? . . . Or is it that the solid rubber is superior?


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## JLawrence08648 (Jan 15, 2017)

Tony P. said:


> Snowplow bottom edges frequently have a rubber strip (called skirtboard) to protect both the snowplow and the asphalt. The shirtboard functions like a super-paddle, pushing snow and ice up and out. The skirtboard receives far greater stress and abrasion than impeller paddles. Yet I'm virtually certain all skirtboards are made of solid rubber, generally a combination of SBR and gum.


I'm glad you used the word frequent. Most residential plows use metal, not all town plows use rubber but many or most. Many State plows use a metal edge. This is because the town's are dealing with raised sewer, storm sewer, and water covers, the State doesn't have that generally on highways but in many jurisdictions they do.

And yes, it's SBR SkirtBoardRubber.

And really super good on slushy roads but no good on icey or hard packed driven on roads.


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## JLawrence08648 (Jan 15, 2017)

Way to solve this problem, find someone with 4 snowblowers whom gets a lot of snow, few times a week, give him 4 samples to put on, let him compare and report back.

I don't understand the use of tires. Tires have steel wire belting which is virtually impossible to cut through. Besides scrapping the inside of the impeller housing.

What would be better than car tires, riding tractor, riding mower, or walk behind mower tires. No steel wire, slightly more flexible, easier to cut and shape, different sealing lip.


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## Vermont007 (Mar 29, 2015)

JLawrence said:


> ". . . Way to solve this problem, find someone with 4 snowblowers whom gets a lot of snow, few times a week, give him 4 samples to put on, let him compare and report back . . ."


Over the Summer, you should do the installation for him, just to make sure it's done in a consistent and workmanlike manner, so that the comparison is really *Apples with Apples*, and *Oranges with Oranges*.


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## Tony P. (Jan 9, 2017)

JLawrence08648 said:


> And yes, it's SBR SkirtBoardRubber


JL, I know you were kidding but for everyone else, SBR stands for Styrene-Butadiene Rubber.


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## Tony P. (Jan 9, 2017)

tpenfield said:


> Is your point that the right kind of solid rubber in the right thickness will work equally well as a reinforced rubber material? . . . Or is it that the solid rubber is superior?


For the application we're discussing (impeller paddles) solid rubber (such as SBR) is superior to an equal thickness of reinforced rubber irrespective of the reinforced composite (baler belts, truck mudguards, etc.). In summary, here's why:


Wear - The primary consideration when selecting material for impeller paddles is wear, referred to as abrasion resistance. Solid rubber is more abrasion resistant because the material commonly added to reinforced rubber is wool or cotton. Thus, solid rubber contains more abrasion resistant material than an equal thickness of reinforced rubber.
Stress - Solid rubber and reinforced rubber handle stress in different ways. Solid rubber deals with stress by hardness and tensile strength, so if a proper rubber is used, it is designed to withstand stress. Reinforced rubber is designed to give in to stress by flexing. When reinforced rubber flexes, it moves creating a gap. Over time it retains its flexed position and the gap becomes permanent.


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## JLawrence08648 (Jan 15, 2017)

Tony P. said:


> JL, I know you were kidding but for everyone else, SBR stands for Styrene-Butadiene Rubber.


It also stands for Sequencing Batch Reactor, and Short Barrel Rifle, but not Sam and Dave. One of my degrees is in Chemistry. I thought it was an easy way to remember it., Skirt board rubber


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## JLawrence08648 (Jan 15, 2017)

Tony P. said:


> JL, I know you were kidding but for everyone else, SBR stands for Styrene-Butadiene Rubber.


It also stands for Sequencing Batch Reactor, and Short Barrel Rifle, but not Sam and Dave. One of my degrees is in Chemistry. I thought it was an easy way to remember it., Skirt board rubber


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## JLawrence08648 (Jan 15, 2017)

Tony P. said:


> For the application we're discussing (impeller paddles) solid rubber (such as SBR) is superior to an equal thickness of reinforced rubber irrespective of the reinforced composite (baler belts, truck mudguards, etc.). In summary, here's why:
> 
> 
> Wear - The primary consideration when selecting material for impeller paddles is wear, referred to as abrasion resistance. Solid rubber is more abrasion resistant because the material commonly added to reinforced rubber is wool or cotton. Thus, solid rubber contains more abrasion resistant material than an equal thickness of reinforced rubber.
> Stress - Solid rubber and reinforced rubber handle stress in different ways. Solid rubber deals with stress by hardness and tensile strength, so if a proper rubber is used, it is designed to withstand stress. Reinforced rubber is designed to give in to stress by flexing. When reinforced rubber flexes, it moves creating a gap. Over time it retains its flexed position and the gap becomes permanent.


Makes common sense to me. Seems reinforced rubber would be better for applications where there is pulling and stretching. The reinforcement prevents the pulling by fighting back as the rubber alone can be easily stretched thus the cloth reinforcement is incorporated into the rubber. A conveyor belt is a perfect example of pulling.


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## jtclays (Sep 24, 2010)

I think the flex TonyP mentions is the best argument for the baler belting. Not all impeller tubes are created equal. Rarely are they very concentric. Some even have bolt heads roaming around in them, or chute extension plastics. The baler belt can be set to zero tolerance at the exhaust hole and flex around riding over the higher points inside the tube as they come back for another discharge. It's cheap and likely the least shocking to the rest of the hardware/gearing it's running around with, IMO.
http://www.snowblowerforum.com/foru...orum/71241-impeller-mod-troy-bilt-2410-a.html


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## tpenfield (Feb 24, 2015)

It seems that most commercially available kits are the solid rubber type, and not the reinforced. That picture above looks very familiar to me 

I purchased a kit online and it had solid rubber paddles and they did fracture during break-in. I then replaced the paddles with some reinforced material and continued with the break-in of the paddles. It was not until then that I found a flange that was contacting the paddles, in addition to the carriage bolts shown in the picture of Post #20. However, the fiber reinforced paddles survived the break-in even while hitting those slight obstructions. I was able to make a few tweaks to the blades and the housing and then all was well.

Interestingly, from some of the FAQ's of the folks that make/sell these types of kits are a few cautions about installation that can lead to fracture of the solid rubber paddles. . . .

Here are the quotes from the FAQ's . . .

_*Q- What about obstructions in the impeller chamber walls? 

A-On some machines, there are round-headed carriage bolts that protrude into the impeller chamber wall. These bolt heads might interfere with the rubber paddles as they rotate by causing damage to the paddles. It is very important to inspect your impeller chamber walls to see if this situation exists! If it does, you can still install the kit but you have to leave a gap large enough so that the paddles will not come into contact with the protruding bolt heads. Remember, the idea of this kit is ideally to eliminate the gap, however ANY reduction of the gap WILL improve the efficiency and snow throwing capability of your machine!

Q- What else should I consider when “fitting” my rubber paddles to my impeller blades? 

A- You want to eliminate the existing gap as much as possible in all respects, so when you trim the rubber paddles for final fit, try to match the curvature of the impeller chamber walls' sides and top as much as possible. NOTE: if the gap varies around the chamber wall, you MUST install the rubber to fit the spot where the gap is the smallest, otherwise, the rubber will fail!! Also, don't install the rubber paddles with more than 5/8” of rubber overhanging the leading edge of the impeller blade because that seems to be the stress point for these paddles and they might break off under heavy load conditions (eg; heavy snow, slush, etc.) 


*_So, it seems that the solid rubber paddles have their limits as acknowledged by a company that makes these types of kits._*


*_


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## jtclays (Sep 24, 2010)

tpenfield said:


> It seems that most commercially available kits are the solid rubber type, and not the reinforced. That picture above looks very familiar to me


 Thought you might remember something about that link:icon-cheers:
I've done several paddle kits for neighbors since your issues with that impeller chute design (which is surprisingly more common than not). Learning from your experience I took the insert out and ran an angle grinder with a near worn out flapper disc to smooth the offending lip (gotta be super careful with a new disc, ask me how I know:wavetowel2. My experience is the baler belting is still flexible enough to work around the carriage heads and eventually just wears a couple slight spots, but still provides the extra gap closure on the majority of the paddle edge to make the machines work noticeably better in slop.


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## Tony P. (Jan 9, 2017)

tpenfield said:


> I purchased a kit online and it had solid rubber paddles and they did fracture during break-in. I then replaced the paddles with some reinforced material and continued with the break-in of the paddles. It was not until then that I found a flange that was contacting the paddles, in addition to the carriage bolts shown in the picture of Post #20. However, the fiber reinforced paddles survived the break-in even while hitting those slight obstructions. I was able to make a few tweaks to the blades and the housing and then all was well.


I agree entirely with your comments and believe your assessment of your situation is accurate.

When I responded to your earlier post I said,


> The primary consideration when selecting material for impeller paddles is wear.


 In your case wear was not the only consideration because of a slight obstruction so the reinforced rubber paddle was able to overcome the issue by flexing - a very sensible solution.

Having said that, and although I agree with you, I still believe those without an obstruction or those who prefer overcoming the obstruction in another way would be better served with solid rubber.

BTW, I encountered two round bolt heads when I added my paddles and dealt with them by creating slight contours in the paddles at those spots.


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## jtclays (Sep 24, 2010)

Tony, I disagree that the primary consideration is wear. I think it is flex. Depending on where you select the tightest spot, wear is only a consideration there, at that point. If you do several of these on varying machines you can clearly see the tubes are rarely even close to concentric.
The best part of the impeller mod with adding paddles is they self wear to a functional point on the specific tube they are in. Not that they last for a decade. Just my opinion.


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## e.fisher26 (Nov 6, 2016)

Was just at tsc so i grabbed a pic of baler belt if it helps anyone










-efisher-


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## cranman (Jan 23, 2016)

Tony P...I'm not an engineer and truthfully I don't know ****......but you make no sense at all brother.....


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## tpenfield (Feb 24, 2015)

Time will tell. However, there is not much on the Internet (this forum or elsewhere) that I could find about solid rubber being fracture prone.

I think a lot depends on the particular installation. . . If you are looking for a tight fit of the impeller paddles to the housing . . . or if there are some irregularities within the housing (bolt heads, lap joints, etc.), or if there is a significant gap to fill between impeller and housing, then the reinforced material would be better. It will tolerate some obstructions or interference fits without fracturing and allow the paddles to 'wear' into the housing, and it will also support a larger gap closure.

When I did the impeller mod on my Toro 521 this past weekend, using reinforced material, I made paddles fairly tight to the housing, but not so tight that the impeller would not turn, then ran the machine for a minute or 2 to let the impeller paddles wear in.

With solid rubber paddles, it looks like you have to get the fit proper before running the machine, as they will be less tolerant of any interference as they 'wear in'.


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## Tony P. (Jan 9, 2017)

jtclays said:


> Tony, I disagree that the primary consideration is wear. I think it is flex. Depending on where you select the tightest spot, wear is only a consideration there, at that point. If you do several of these on varying machines you can clearly see the tubes are rarely even close to concentric.
> The best part of the impeller mod with adding paddles is they self wear to a functional point on the specific tube they are in. Not that they last for a decade. Just my opinion.


Yes, a snow blower is not a precision machine and housings aren't concentric. But, here and elsewhere I've probably read over 50 descriptions of how to install paddles and universally, the approach is to make the paddles fit correctly - within 1/8" of the tightest dimension. Only by mistake does someone make the paddle oversize.

I suspect the drag created by the resistance you suggest could cause the belt to wear prematurely. But, the premise of this thread is asking if there's a case of baler belts / reinforced rubber so your way is fine with me.

BTW, if housings were installed precisely impellers could be sized with precision as well and there wouldn't be a need for paddles.


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## Tony P. (Jan 9, 2017)

tpenfield said:


> Time will tell. However, there is not much on the Internet (this forum or elsewhere) that I could find about solid rubber being fracture prone.
> 
> I think a lot depends on the particular installation. . . If you are looking for a tight fit of the impeller paddles to the housing . . . or if there are some irregularities within the housing (bolt heads, lap joints, etc.), or if there is a significant gap to fill between impeller and housing, then the reinforced material would be better. It will tolerate some obstructions or interference fits without fracturing and allow the paddles to 'wear' into the housing, and it will also support a larger gap closure.
> 
> ...


I agree with everything you've said. I must add, though, that when paddles are installed at a proper fit the characteristics of solid rubber make it superior to reinforced rubber for this use.


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## Tony P. (Jan 9, 2017)

e.fisher26 said:


> Was just at tsc so i grabbed a pic of baler belt if it helps anyone
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's a great picture because it shows the top and edge. The belt is designed to be used along the top area as in a conveyer belt. When friction is applied along the edge, the belt will wear out fairly quickly because of the thread.

Some postings have proposed that this is desirable because it allows for a snug fit as reinforced rubber will wear at points the fit is too tight.

When the paddles are installed at a proper fit (within 1/8") solid rubber is superior to reinforced rubber. The abrasion caused by snow, ice, and stones will cause reinforced rubber to wear out and separate at the thread while solid rubber is far more resistant to abrasion.


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## jtclays (Sep 24, 2010)

Tony, I don't know what to tell you. All I can say is 1/8" gap in MY mind is not properly installed. I run them right to a friction fit as they approach the exit hole. These are pics I just snapped with my phone from my '79 Ariens 924 series. It has run with these TSC hand cut baler belt paddles for 3 seasons now. It has a 291cc LCT engine swap running a 3.25" auger PTO sheave spinning the impeller at 1400rpm, stock auger worm gear, and aluminum gear case. I do ours and a few other driveways, as well as the slop and ice in front of several mailboxes on our street after the plow . The machine will literally throw snow from my side walk completely across the street. It has not been babied or lightly used. I just don't see the disadvantage you infer to the baler belting. I have done at least 25 mods to neighbors and friends machines with the same stuff, same results. Some were folks that wanted to get rid of their machines, and an hour of tinkering and about $6 in parts changed their thinking:wavetowel2:Just FYI.


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## tpenfield (Feb 24, 2015)

Looks like the short answer to Tony's question is - YES - there is a case for baler belt.

You can get a more precise fit of the paddles to the impeller housing, resulting in greater efficiency of the machine, than you can with solid rubber, because you have to provide adequate clearance to avoid interference with solid rubber.

Tony, would you post some detail pictures of the impeller modification that you recently did and keep us updated on how they wear, etc.?


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## Tony P. (Jan 9, 2017)

tpenfield said:


> Looks like the short answer to Tony's question is - YES - there is a case for baler belt.
> 
> You can get a more precise fit of the paddles to the impeller housing, resulting in greater efficiency of the machine, than you can with solid rubber, because you have to provide adequate clearance to avoid interference with solid rubber.
> 
> Tony, would you post some detail pictures of the impeller modification that you recently did and keep us updated on how they wear, etc.?


Yes, I agree. Going into this I hadn't seen mention of an advantage to using composite reinforced rubber as has been mentioned here and that's what I wanted to find out. I knew solid rubber was inherently superior to composite because of its attributes.

I'm satisfied. Continuing would be like blowing snow into the wind.


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