# HSS928 good performance, small engine - why?



## mgvrmark (Dec 13, 2017)

I'm in the market for 28" machine, considering Honda HSS928AWD and a couple of Ariens models. I've been comparing specs carefully, and reading a ton of reviews/comments on the internet, and yes I even looked at Consumer Reports (don't bother trashing CR, I've already heard all those arguments).

So here's the thing: everyone says the Honda has great performance, very long throw and moves a lot of snow. Anecdotal evidence is one thing, but even CR rates the Honda as "excellent" in thruput and throw, and that's a carefully controlled test environment. But the engine is only 270cc and the impeller is 13.4". The Ariens models I'm considering are 306cc and 420cc, and have a 14" impeller.


Does anyone know how Honda gets such high performance out of a 270cc engine? Do they run it at higher RPM than Ariens or other manufacturers? Does the Honda engine produce more torque and horsepower than other comparably-sized engines? Does it have higher compression ratio, better head design, higher flow carburetor & exhaust, or some other aspect? Or does Honda have some sort of advantage in impeller design (or maybe chute design) that creates a longer throw?


THROW is very important to me, I have a wide parking area in my driveway and need to throw at least 40 ft to avoid double-throwing. Throw is more important to me than thruput (lbs/min), handling large drifts, or plow piles.


Right now, I'm very tempted to buy the Honda for several reasons: claimed & reported performance of course, but also hydrostatic drive, electric joystick chute control, Honda reliability, and a relatively light machine (243 lb versus Ariens Pro28 Hydro at 352 lbs). But I'm still somewhat skeptical of the performance, based on a 270cc engine.


Can anyone explain how/why the Honda outperforms with only 270cc?


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## Town (Jan 31, 2015)

I am not familiar with Honda, but it is unfair to Honda to compare a 9hp Honda to the Ariens Pro 28 with more than 13hp. I would think you should compare the Honda 1332 with the Ariens Pro that comes in 28 and larger sizes. If you must keep the width to 28" then you already know the machine to get.

Throwing distance would be in the 60 ft range for the higher hp machines, less for the lower hp machines. Most machines will blow snow 40 ft but wind direction and snow volume and wet or dry composition will make significant differences. I am unsure of how sawdust compares to snow for throwing capability, never tried that.

Good luck.


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## tdipaul (Jul 11, 2015)

Ive always wondered this myself. 

Even the older 196cc models have impressive throwing distance. The snow rockets out of them. 

Might have something to do with impeller RPM. You can hear the pitch is different. There are some fella's here that have measured the RPM's (and other brands) and will probably chime in soon. 

Stopped by OPE dealer nearby during lunch to look at Honda's and Ariens. Man the Honda's are impressive to look at. They are huge and tower over the Ariens. 

Something that caught the eye is all the cables and wires they have. Definitely more complex with all the features and stuff...



the electrical tape job looks unbecoming of a Honda, dontchya think?


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## nwcove (Mar 2, 2015)

imho, honda and yamaha just do a better job of using available hp/torque to get the job done.
that engineering is why they cost more.


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## tdipaul (Jul 11, 2015)

C'mon that answer is as vague and mysterious as Papa Johns "Better Ingredients. Better Pizza" slogan. 





.


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## gormleyflyer2002 (Nov 5, 2017)

i know they all run with comparable engine RPM............would love to know if some knows or has compared the impeller rpm. ??


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## mgvrmark (Dec 13, 2017)

Town, it's not an "unfair comparison", it's simply a question. Honda claims 52 ft throw with 270cc, which seems remarkable compared to the competition - not just Ariens, but also compared to Toro, MTD, many others. So how does Honda get that much distance out of that small of an engine?


Others have said, in essence, superior engineering. I'm an engineer myself, extremely familiar with technical differences that can make a smaller engine perform as well as a larger one, so I'd like to know _specifically _what makes the Honda perform so much better than comparably-sized engines -- or, to put it another way, how does a 270cc Honda perform as well as much larger engines?


Without knowing the "why" or "how", I'm naturally a bit skeptical. But I'll concede that the best evidence that the Honda performance numbers are real, is the Consumer Reports testing. We can all belittle CR for testing with sawdust, but at least it's a controlled test, apples to apples, and CR rates the Honda as "excellent" in throw distance and clearing speed.


Maybe no one here knows the answer. Honda probably doesn't readily disclose what they are doing differently. But I'm hoping that perhaps someone here has had reason to disassemble a Honda engine, or has looked carefully at the Honda impeller and chute, and has seen something specific that might explain the anomaly. I'd be more comfortable spending $2700 if I knew a plausible reason.




Town said:


> I am not familiar with Honda, but it is unfair to Honda to compare a 9hp Honda to the Ariens Pro 28 with more than 13hp. I would think you should compare the Honda 1332 with the Ariens Pro that comes in 28 and larger sizes. If you must keep the width to 28" then you already know the machine to get.
> 
> Throwing distance would be in the 60 ft range for the higher hp machines, less for the lower hp machines. Most machines will blow snow 40 ft but wind direction and snow volume and wet or dry composition will make significant differences. I am unsure of how sawdust compares to snow for throwing capability, never tried that.
> 
> Good luck.


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## Freezn (Mar 1, 2014)

Honda utilizes extremely tight tolerances between the impeller and the impeller housing. Basically about the thickness of 2 business cards. No need for an impeller kit with a Honda snow blower.


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## jrom (Jan 10, 2014)

tdipaul said:


> ...Something that caught the eye is all the cables and wires they have. Definitely more complex with all the features and stuff...the electrical tape job looks unbecoming of a Honda, dontchya think?


I really love my Honda's as they've served me well over the years, but I still can't get used to the harness, plugs, tape and even the hard plastic ties they use. 

My '91 has nice tidy pliable "cable bands" as Honda calls them and the cable for the 120v starter is a nice pliable sealed rubber. 

I saw some off road light bar harnesses that look really good...Morimoto Motocontrol. It's more in line with what I think Honda should use.


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## Marlow (Dec 17, 2016)

mgvrmark said:


> Town, it's not an "unfair comparison", it's simply a question. Honda claims 52 ft throw with 270cc, which seems remarkable compared to the competition - not just Ariens, but also compared to Toro, MTD, many others. So how does Honda get that much distance out of that small of an engine?


Throwing distance is more to do with design, than power. That's why a little 6hp Honda can chuck it farther than most other premium brands with double the power. But where the power difference will show is throughput.


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## drmerdp (Feb 9, 2014)

Freezn said:


> Honda utilizes extremely tight tolerances between the impeller and the impeller housing. Basically about the thickness of 2 business cards. No need for an impeller kit with a Honda snow blower.


That’s tighter then I’ve seen. Still We’re talking 1/8” very tight.

It’s likely a combination of details that yield the overall efficiency.

Tight tolerances 

Faster impeller speeds, definitely faster then most snowblowers but I do not know by how much. 

I’ve noticed that the flow of snow is particularly consistent with a pattern of pulses and very smooth. 

The engineering for throwing far also means expelling it with a lot of velocity. If you can move it fast then you can reload and move more of it quicker.

Add an excellent engine that has a very broad torque curve and the ever important hydro transmission. With the hydro you are never stuck between gears. Infinitely adjustable ground speed.

You can always run the machine at the perfect ground speed every time. My machine throws the farthest when it is heavily loaded. I can adjust my ground speed to load the engine right into its power band. Peak torque is around 2500rpm and max hp is 3600. My gx270 loved 3100rpm it let out a growl that you could recognize as “The Spot.”


That’s when my machine was throwing the farthest. A heavy pulse of snow with a lot of momentum. Forgive my analogy. You can throw a golf ball further then marshmallow. 

You can watch videos of HS and HSS snowblowers and hear something special. Same goes for Yamaha, they are highly effective and offer an upper echelon experience. 

I have a similar setup and don’t have to double blow snow. 

If your number one demand from a snowblower is throwing distance then your decision is a simple one.


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## mgvrmark (Dec 13, 2017)

Thanks Freezn and drmerdp, your comments about impeller clearance make sense. That could explain the superior performance. If my local dealer will allow me, I might try to measure the impeller clearance of a few of their machines to compare Honda to Ariens and maybe a few others (or at least eyeball it). Has anyone here done this?


drmerdp, how do you know the RPM you're running? Does your gx270 have a tachometer, or have you added one? Or used a hand-held tach to measure?


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## drmerdp (Feb 9, 2014)

mgvrmark said:


> drmerdp, how do you know the RPM you're running? Does your gx270 have a tachometer, or have you added one? Or used a hand-held tach to measure?


I added my own tachometer/hour meter.


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## Bob E (Jun 9, 2014)

I wouldn't put much faith in what the guys playing with saw dust have to say... unless your driveway routinely fills with sawdust. Next they'll be testing snow tires at the sand dunes :blink:
Whether we're talking about cars, bikes, or snowblowers I don't think it's any big secret that Honda designs great engines, and machines.


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## mgvrmark (Dec 13, 2017)

The sawdust test isn't perfect, but nobody else tests 70+ snowblowers side by side. Plus, Consumer Reports claims that they "validate" their sawdust test results with testing in real snow. Look, I'm not a huge fan of CR, but until somebody else comes along who tests lots of snowblowers, year after year, in perfectly uniform natural snow -- CR is the best hard data we have.

I would never base my entire decision on CR ratings or data. For one, they don't test all the models I'm considering. I'm on this forum to get real-world advice from actual users. But let's be honest: none of us has logged tons of hours with the latest models from every major brand. So some of the advice here is what I call "anecdotal evidence": useful, but not definitive. There seems to be a pretty clear consensus on some things -- and some competing opinions on other things.

I'm basing my decision based on a combination of advice received here, technical specs, CR ratings and test results, my own observations about each machine, my experience with the three local dealers who sell the brands I'm considering, and of course price.


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## Marlow (Dec 17, 2016)

I'd go with the 13hp, much more power dollar for dollar!


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## dhazelton (Dec 8, 2014)

jrom said:


> I really love my Honda's as they've served me well over the years, but I still can't get used to the harness, plugs, tape and even the hard plastic ties they use.
> 
> My '91 has nice tidy pliable "cable bands" as Honda calls them and the cable for the 120v starter is a nice pliable sealed rubber.
> 
> I saw some off road light bar harnesses that look really good...Morimoto Motocontrol. It's more in line with what I think Honda should use.


I have a CRF250L dual sport bike and if you look under the instrument gauge cluster it's like some kid took a whole roll of electrical tape to it and not in an elegant way either. That bike is made in Thailand so corners were cut to keep the price down. Are all the blowers still made in Japan after the tsunami closed the port or are blowers being made in other places?


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## jrom (Jan 10, 2014)

Bummer on your CRF250L wiring clump. 

Almost all of the Honda GX snow engines are made in Thailand and have been for many years.

If I heard Robert ([email protected]) correct, all of the 2 stage HSS blowers are now US assembled. I don't think any are assembled in Japan any longer. Could be wrong. I'll try to search for one of his posts on that.



dhazelton said:


> I have a CRF250L dual sport bike and if you look under the instrument gauge cluster it's like some kid took a whole roll of electrical tape to it and not in an elegant way either. That bike is made in Thailand so corners were cut to keep the price down. Are all the blowers still made in Japan after the tsunami closed the port or are blowers being made in other places?


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## detdrbuzzard (Jan 20, 2012)

I'm pretty sure that by now other snowblower manufactures have dissected a Honda and a Yamaha ( as well as others ) to see what makes them tick so the real question isn't what makes Honda snowblowers better but why haven't other manufactures incorporated some if not all of the design features or at least the ones that don't have a paten on them. as for throw distance it would depend on if you have the room in your yard to throw snow 60
+ feet


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## rearaghaerh (Dec 23, 2016)

dhazelton said:


> I have a CRF250L dual sport bike and if you look under the instrument gauge cluster it's like some kid took a whole roll of electrical tape to it and not in an elegant way either. That bike is made in Thailand so corners were cut to keep the price down. Are all the blowers still made in Japan after the tsunami closed the port or are blowers being made in other places?


In 1967 I had a 90 CC honda bike that would routinely hall my fat a$$ at 60 MPH


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## jrom (Jan 10, 2014)

Deere Owner said:


> In 1967 I had a 90 CC honda bike that would routinely hall my fat a$$ at 60 MPH


That is funny. I can see that 90 running down the road.

I had (still have it) a 1967 Benelli 125 2-stroke (Montgomery Wards Riverside), in 1967 that would top out at 45 MPH with us skinny kids on it, and laying down on the tank to boot.

My buddies and I sure liked those Honda 90's though.


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## rfw1953 (Oct 11, 2017)

Frankly, I think you would be satisfied with either of the machines you're thinking of getting. For me, I went with the 32" Honda, and I'm extremely pleased after one epic snow season, though so far we have been pretty dry this season. Had I not gone with Honda, I probably would have gone with an Ariens. My middle son has The Ariens Model 11528LE, and he is just as happy as I am, but I found his Ariens to be a bit heavy/bulky for me to maneuver. Granted, his Ariens is an older SB than the newer machines which have been improved. My oldest son also purchased the 32" Honda and he is very pleased as well. Both sons live here in Crested Butte so we compare SB experiences frequently. A neighbor has the 928 Honda, and is just as pleased with his unit as I am with mine. Because of his experiences, I almost purchased a 928 last season, but I went with the larger SB to handle the icy berm at the end of our driveway. The Honda chews right through it in minutes. In the end, I think it comes down to personal preference and budget.


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## tabora (Mar 1, 2017)

Deere Owner said:


> In 1967 I had a 90 CC honda bike that would routinely hall my fat a$$ at 60 MPH


Still have my 1977 Trail 90 (CT90), and it still has amazing performance on/off road with 2 large people aboard (have the extra seat & pegs installed).


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## mgvrmark (Dec 13, 2017)

*Thanks RFW*

Thanks, RFW, very useful post ... 




rfw1953 said:


> Frankly, I think you would be satisfied with either of the machines you're thinking of getting. For me, I went with the 32" Honda, and I'm extremely pleased after one epic snow season, though so far we have been pretty dry this season. Had I not gone with Honda, I probably would have gone with an Ariens. My middle son has The Ariens Model 11528LE, and he is just as happy as I am, but I found his Ariens to be a bit heavy/bulky for me to maneuver. Granted, his Ariens is an older SB than the newer machines which have been improved. My oldest son also purchased the 32" Honda and he is very pleased as well. Both sons live here in Crested Butte so we compare SB experiences frequently. A neighbor has the 928 Honda, and is just as pleased with his unit as I am with mine. Because of his experiences, I almost purchased a 928 last season, but I went with the larger SB to handle the icy berm at the end of our driveway. The Honda chews right through it in minutes. In the end, I think it comes down to personal preference and budget.


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## Bulldogge (Nov 1, 2017)

Not only the impeller tolerance but the shoot looks smaller than others. That will actually throw the snow farther. Example take a mouth full of water and blow it out through a fat straw & see how far it goes? A lot of water will come out but it will not go a great distance. Now with a moth full of water blow it out through a skinnier straw. Not as much water will come as quickly but it will shoot out a greater distance. When I was looking at machines I thought the shoot seemed to have a smaller diameter. Watching some videos them Honda's do throw some distance. Honda makes everything great from lawnmowers to bikes to cars.


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## Northeast603 (Dec 23, 2017)

Honda is a much lighter machine and the gx270 engine is a powerhouse. I’ve owned both machines and the Honda could easily outperform the Ariens.


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