# My 1978 Yardman Snowbird 31600-9: Problem #1, tires & wheels



## ztnoo (Nov 26, 2015)

This is my first post after my intro message of yesterday morning.

http://www.snowblowerforum.com/forum/new-member-introductions/72514-hello-indiana.html#post776690

The *1978 Yardman Snowbird 31600-9 *that was my dad's machine, is in serious need of tires. Mechanically the snowblower performs well given its age, but after 35-40 years of use, the narrow tractor tread pattern solid rubber tires on the machine are pretty much toast. For all practical purposes they are slicks and offer little in the way of traction when the going gets a little dicey, particularly in wet, slushy snow. If it wasn't for the substantial machine weight, I likely would not be able to use the machine in most winter weather situations that required serious user involvement.

Yesterday while performing some neglected and needed routine maintenance prior to "the season" beginning (at least here so far), I was reminded of the dire state of the tires. They are solid tires, of narrow width, and small diameter by today's standards. You don't see these anymore....they are anomalies of the past. I was alerted I need to find a solution to this problem. Mucho pronto.
The tire markings state "3.50 x 6". The Yardman owners manual describes the tire as "12.5 x 3.50", *part # 734-0829*. Pictured below is the Yardman tire/wheel in relation to my Toro 826 LE tire/wheel. The Toro (Carlisle) tire markings are 15 x 5.00 - 6NHSS. The view is the inside of the Yardman Snowbird tire/wheel.









Yardman Snowbird wheel & tire looking down:










Original tire and size










So my thought was I was dealing with a split rim wheel situation, i.e. unbolt the hub from the wheel and I would have TWO wheel halves to deal with. A reasonable assumption given what I was observing.....but incorrect.
I decided to remove the bolts from the wheel hub on the OEM wheel, thinking removing the hub would reveal two (2) halves of the wheel......i.e. a split rim auto/truck type application. 
I thought when I removed the bolted hub from what I thought were wheel hubs halves, the tire would be free of the assembly.
Answer: WRONG!!!
NO GO.
What I found was an assembly I'm not sure how was accomplished in a manufacturing environment, and certainly not logical or practical, from a repair perspective.

Inside of Yardman wheel:










Outside of Yardman wheel:










tire/wheel assembly with axle hub removed:











Unfortunately, it appears I'm dealing with something that cannot be repaired.

If I can't get the tire off the wheel, then do I have any other options???

I have no idea how this was manufactured. If the tire was hard, solid, not particularly pliable, how would it have been made and installed on the wheel???
First thought was one side of the wheel assembly was already bolted to the hub assembly. the tire was then applied and a pressing operation was initiated to bend and form the other rim half to conform to the solid rubber tire.
I imagine lot of heat and pressure was applied to the opposite side of the wheel and tire and the all that was pressed together and formed.
If that was the case, good luck 40 years down the line replacing the tire.......if you can even locate the right size. No luck there, so far.
Note the significant crimps (dimples) on the interior wheel rim. Likely done to lock everything in place, never to be removed again.










So, it would appear the immediate solution would be to find pneumatic tires and wheels of the same or similar dimensions. I had previously thought if I could split the wheel halves, I could adapt a pneumatic tire with aggressive thread pattern of the same approximate dimensions and fill it with expanding foam, bolt the wheel halves back together, and I would be in business. Looks like that isn't going to happen with these wheels.

So, I'm looking for suggestions to keep my "old iron" functioning in a reasonable fashion.
I'm open to any and all thoughts......
What say all of you???

Regards,
Steve


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## Kiss4aFrog (Nov 3, 2013)

Wow, those really are slicks !!

Might be time to try and find some wheels and tires from a machine with the same size axle and adapt to your machine.
Hopefully someone on here has done it and can give you an idea of what might be an easy fit.


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## Yanmar Ronin (Jan 31, 2015)

Welcome to SBF. 

These tires look like they might fit: Amazon.com : (Lot of 2) Kings 6 " 3.50-6 Tubeless R-1 Lug Tires 4 ply rated load range B (4.10/3.50-6) : Patio, Lawn & Garden

Remains to figure out a few things, aye... No way those wheel halves are coming apart? Maybe if you got the old tires off somehow, a sawzall comes to mind... maybe then you could see better how they are built.

Hmm...


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## ztnoo (Nov 26, 2015)

*Replacement wheels & tires*

So it looks like I need to find wheels and tires of the same rough dimensions to maintain to original relationships and heights as much as possible. I believe a pneumatic tire is really the only solution which would allow for repair and replacement in the future.

In the short time I have looked, it appears all modern wheels for pneumatic tires have an integrated hub which is not separate and removable. Unless someone can think of a machine that might have removable, 4 bolt hubs and wheels, I need to know what might be some choices I might have.

Shown below is the hub removed from the wheel. The length of the hub tube is 5 5/8". The outside setback to the wheel center is 1 3/4" and the inside setback is 3 11/16" . The klick pin hole is 1/4" and is set in 3/8".
Inside hub diameter is 3/4"









A used or new pneumatic tire/wheel hub units could be no longer than the current 5 5/8" hub to be able to be installed on my drive axle. A wheel with a shorter hub length could be made to work with spacers, if necessary.


So basically to simplify everything, here's what I think I need and what I think will work for me to maintain the approximate original heights and relationships on my Yardman Snowbird.
Tire diameter: 12 1/2" - 13"
Tire width: 3 1/2" (4.10 would work, I believe)
Wheel diameter: 6" +-
Total hub width not exceeding 5 5/8"
Inside hub diameter: 3/4"
Klink pin hole size: 1/4"

Surely there has to be someone here on the site that has encountered similar problems in the past with older snowblowers with solid tires that were shot. What solutions did you come up with?
Also, if anyone here suspects their machine or machines has tires/wheels with the approximate dimensions I have given, would you take a moment and measure and reply here and say what machine you have so that I have a starting place for something known in my search?
My preference would be to buy used tires and wheels. My preference would be for a Snow Hog type tire tread rather than the tractor tread pattern this machine was equipped with originally.

So if any of you Gentlemen have specific and extensive knowledge, experience, and background in wheels and tires for snowblowers, I would very much appreciate it if you would chime in with your 2 cents worth.

Regards,
Steve


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## ztnoo (Nov 26, 2015)

Yanmar Ronin,
I had actually looked at those tires you point out. Of course, that was when I was still thinking I had wheels which were spilt rims and would come apart. Such is not the case. The outer rim appears to be all extruded and blends into to the hub mount center. The back side rim appears to have been welded to that assembly......but there in no way this splits open and comes apart.

I think the only way you could get a pneumatic tire to work (filled with cured expanding foam, then bolted together) is if the wheel came apart in halves. It doesn't. Even if I would cut the solid tire off, I see no practical way of getting such a pneumatic tire mounted in such a way that it would be tight on the rim and not slip.

It's one of the craziest tire/wheel arrangements I've ever seen. Certainly no thought was given to future tire replacement. I'm sure the idea was just sell a new tire/wheel assembly. That's not workable or available nearly 38 years later.


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## jtclays (Sep 24, 2010)

This might work,


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## Grunt (Nov 11, 2013)

Possibly these from Harbor Freight. Remove the center hub?? and drill new holes to match your hub pattern??

4" x 13" White Hub Pneumatic Tire


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## Ray 1962 10ML60 (Oct 14, 2011)

I would search for something like these on eBay and re-drill the hub as necessary to accept your lug pattern (they may match right up). Then you can put on a new set of tires down the road of you want. I love the x-tracs, put them on an old Ariens and I hardly need to lock the differential anymore. 

Set of 2 Ariens Snowblower Rims Wheels Tires 4 80 8 Comes with Tire Chains | eBay

These are priced a little high for my taste, but if you are patient a cheap pair will surely come along soon.


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## nwcove (Mar 2, 2015)

get a box or two of sheet metal screws and stud what you have. jmo


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## 69ariens (Jan 29, 2011)

I am thinking an old set of ariens wheel and tires would work. measure stud to stud . A lot of the wheels are same for many brands


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## ztnoo (Nov 26, 2015)

Gentlemen,
I am soaking up everything that is being suggested as I continue to research on my own about this subject. I'm open to about anything that provides the most reasonable solution, logistically, mechanically, and cost wise.



> measure stud to stud


 My hub threaded wheel studs measure 2" x 2" center to center, in a square pattern.

Please keep the thoughts and inspirations coming!
Thanks for your help so far.

Regards,
Steve


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## skutflut (Oct 16, 2015)

ztnoo said:


> Gentlemen,
> I am soaking up everything that is being suggested as I continue to research on my own about this subject. I'm open to about anything that provides the most reasonable solution, logistically, mechanically, and cost wise.
> 
> My hub threaded wheel studs measure 2" x 2" center to center, in a square pattern.
> ...


Take a look at this other thread. Orv had a similar problem and take a look at his solution. http://www.snowblowerforum.com/foru...-forum/69650-ariens-922024-tire-retrofit.html


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## Dragonsm (Nov 24, 2015)

Check out 2 piece go-kart rims. I took a quick look at Northern Tool, however the one I found in 6" looks like it had a slightly wider bolt holes center to center so they wouldn't work....around the 15 dollar mark a piece

A little searching on ebay, (I believe I searched something like 4 bolt 6" rims) and came up with something like this:

6" Demountable Wheel Assembly 6" Rim Pair Mini Bike GoKart | eBay

I am sure if you look around, you could find them a lot more reasonable. 

Steve


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## db130 (Feb 16, 2013)

Have you considered tire chains?

Those solid tires look like the tires on my Snowbuster 524:










They are 3.5x6 tires, just like yours.

I ordered chains that were listed as, 




They appear to fit OK?


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## ztnoo (Nov 26, 2015)

> Have you considered tire chains?





> get a box or two of sheet metal screws and stud what you have


These are viable and practical options, but I'm really looking to stay away from these choices. My first choice has always been for a "soft" solution, meaning a rubber tire solution. I neglected to express that initially and I apologize for the oversight. A pneumatic tire will minimize surface damage to my concrete drives and concrete garage floors. If I were dealing with gravel, the two above offered possibilities would be realistic choices.

I actually really like the idea of a split rim wheel which would allow the use of my OEM hubs without either spacers or having to cut off a hub shaft of a different wheel if it was longer than the 5 5/8" OEM hub shaft. The main problem I'm seeing is the hole spacing for my hub studs. I've only found one which has my 2" square stud pattern. All the others I have located are described as 2 13/16" or _4 on 4_ hole spacing. It appears however costs may be a consideration. By the time I could locate rims with the correct stud spacing, add shipping, locate correct size tires and tubes, and add shipping, the total costs begins to mount quickly. Also something that I need to factor into this option is assembly time.

The best overall deal thus far appears to be *jtclays* suggestion.
Two 4 10 6 Snow Blower Thrower Tires Rims Wheel Assembly Americana 410 6 4 10x6 | eBay
About the only dimensional difference of note is the length of the hub shaft which is shorter than my hub shaft. That would require a spacer of some type on the inside of each wheel, but seems easily done. Additional pluses are they have tires already mounted and shipping is free.

I haven't made any final decisions yet, so if anyone has further thoughts and suggestions, I'm all eyes and ears. I may also consult with a couple of local small engine shops for their ideas in the meantime.

Regards,
Steve


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## alleyyooper (Sep 12, 2015)

Ya I would stay away from off road tire studs or sheet metal screws to simple of a fix for a solid rubber tire.

Carbide Tire Screws Studs for ATV tires-tractor tires-motorcycle tires

I put the grip it 13 on my 4x4 ATV and it just goes where you point it.

 Al


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## ELaw (Feb 4, 2015)

+1 for not using sheet metal screws!

My first Ariens had solid tires with even less tread than yours... pretty much none at all.

I screwed probably 20 phillips-head sheet metal screws into each tire. It helped a little at first, but the heads quickly wore down to where 1) they didn't add traction any more and 2) you couldn't get a screwdriver on them to remove them.

Did you look at the ebay link Dragonsm posted? Those look like they have a bolt pattern with 2" spacing.


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## ztnoo (Nov 26, 2015)

ELaw,
Yes I examined those split wheel rims. They had all the pertinent specs I was looking for as given in the auction ad copy:
Description:​ Demountable Wheel Assembly
Used With 6" Tire
Used on Go Karts, Mini Bikes, Lawn Mowers and More 

Wheel and Rim Size:​ ID: 2"
Bolt Holes 2" Center to Center 
Diameter: 6

Suggested tire size: 
410 x 350 x 6
​I think they would work fine, although there's no mention of a hole drilled for a Schrader valve. The big drawback is cost, IMO. 2 x 23.89 = $47.78. $11.25 Economy Shipping (I assume each complete wheel unit, i.e. two halves). If the charge is per wheel unit, that equals $22.50.
Either way, totals are $59.03 or $70.28. Then I'd still have to buy tires and tubes. Easily I'd be over $100. It's not that I'm totally ruling these wheels out, but *jtclays* suggestion @ $54.95 for 2 wheels and mounted tires ready to go and free shipping, is looking pretty tempting. Actually its the best thing I've seen yet in terms of needed features in terms of the specs I outlined earlier, at a sharp price.
But the quest continues.......for now......

Regards,
Steve​​


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## Dragonsm (Nov 24, 2015)

This post has me intrigued.....maybe because I am curious as to how/what holds those solids in place.

Here's option 2 from me.....I'd be inclined to grab a sawzall and a few other type cutting tools and I'd start butchering one of those tires to get them off the rim....but then again, I am one of those types. I'm guessing the indentations on the one side of the rim is what holds the tire in place. 

Once you get the tire off, drill some holes for a valve stem and pick up 2 new tires and tubes...line the inside of the rims with something to protect the tubes...and you are good to go...(I'd even paint them while you have them apart)

There is a set of MTD Snowflight tires right now ebay which yours look 10 times better than those....and they come with a proud price of 60 bucks plus another 40.....

Didn't really run across to many other ideas yet....other than those listed already.

Steve


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## 94EG8 (Feb 13, 2014)

Some older snowblowers had 4 bolt wheels with pneumatic tires that will fit those hubs. They're not very common but they're out there and they tend to be a small tire size.


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## ztnoo (Nov 26, 2015)

94EG8,
Do you happen to recall what those brands were, and roughly what years are you talking about?

Regards,
Steve


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## 94EG8 (Feb 13, 2014)

ztnoo said:


> 94EG8,
> Do you happen to recall what those brands were, and roughly what years are you talking about?
> 
> Regards,
> Steve


I had an old Snowflight, based on a Bobcat design that had them. And I had another machine that had a set but I can't recall the brand, that one was thrown away 20 years ago. I still have the wheels though, they ended up on a trailer dolly. This was stuff that was common in the mid 1970s


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## ztnoo (Nov 26, 2015)

Well, since I was encountering great difficulty locating 6" wheels with the correct stud spacing to accept my Yardbird Snowbird OEM hubs, I threw in the towel and went with the next best choice, i.e. the path with seemingly the least resistance. I'm sure the pneumatic wheels I need to work with my original hubs are out there......somewhere......but I made up my mind not get burned out in a search of that nature consuming huge chunks of time, communication, energy, and likely higher end cost.

I decided to go with *jtclays* suggestion. The hub shaft of these new wheels wasn't of the ideal length (it was shorter), but I assumed could make up the difference with a spacer behind the inside of each hub and abutting the axle bearings in the box framed side of the machine. So I ordered the wheel/tire assemblies for $54.95 for the pair, with free shipping. Took about four days to arrive. Tires came aired up and ready to go. A very decent deal compared with other options and it really couldn't be beat for the money. 

Spacers will definitely be required to keep the axle drive sprocket in the correct alignment with the sprocket & chain attached to the friction wheel shaft which supplies the power to the driving axle to which the wheels attach. I am currently searching for appropriate dimension tubing to fabricate the spacers to provide a good snug fit of the klink pin secured wheel hubs against the box frame of the snowblower, thus insuring minimal side play. Each OEM wheel was secured not only with the klink pins, but also on the outside of the hub with a snap ring. Because the klink pin hole location end dimension isn't quite as precise in the new hubs, I can only fit one snap ring. The other snap ring groove on the opposite axle end is obscured and cannot be fitted. I don't view this as a problem however. All the snap ring really insured was that if the klink pin fell out inadvertently, the snap ring would still retain the wheel on the axle......although that side wouldn't drive the wheel.
Below are pics of the new setup, minus yet to be fabricated spacers. When I'm finally done with this new installation/retrofit, the snowblower should have more traction with these new tires than it ever had with the OEM tractor thread pattern, even when brand new.

One of the new wheels with mounted tire:








Old OEM wheel/tire setup:







New wheel/tire setup (new friction wheel also installed):








Left side showing need for a spacer between the hub and the frame.








Left side, closer view.


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## Kiss4aFrog (Nov 3, 2013)

If you don't have a use for the old hubs you could cut your spacers off of them.
Or maybe PVC pipe ??


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## Oneacer (Jan 3, 2011)

Usually some black gas/water pipe etc. should do, with the inner diameter to the shaft diameter, just cut to proper length. Any box store or local plumbing supply should have it. You might even find some brass ones. Just smooth the ends, or use washers.

BTW, the tires look great. I did that to my 3 machines, 2 Ariens and a Yardman years ago. I used split rim's.


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## AriensProMike (Dec 2, 2014)

I have the same wheels if interested. Plenty of meat left with chains. In case you change you mind.


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## ztnoo (Nov 26, 2015)

AriensProMike, 
You didn't mention what machine your wheels are from, whether its a Yardman Snowbird like mine or another brand......but they do initially appear to be similar, although the crimps in the wheel on mine are on the inside wheels halves, whereas yours appear to be on the outside.

I assume your tires are solid rubber too, and they do look significantly better in the tread department than my old tires. If they are solid tires, then of course your wheels have no provision for a valve stem. Neither do my old wheels.

If I could have found cheap pneumatic wheels with a 2 " square hub stud pattern at a reasonable cost, I would have preferred to go that route bolting my hubs to other wheels, thus avoiding the need to fabricate axle spacers to make up the dimensional difference between the length of the wheel hub of the new pneumatic wheels and tires which was shorter than the OEM dimension.

However, I quickly saw the deal I ran across thanks to *jtclays* was the best way to go to get the same size pneumatic wheel and tires at a great price........and all new parts too.

Thanks for your offer and inquiry however. If I could have found my same wheels off another machine locally at the right price, I might have been inclined to experiment converting them to pneumatic wheels, but I had no luck in that regard, so I went the easiest route to solve my problem. I haven't had the opportunity to try them out yet, but I'm sure these new wheels are going to be at least 200% more efficient than my old "slicks".


Regards,
Steve


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## bad69cat (Nov 30, 2015)

I think nwcove is onto a tought there. The sawzall would do a job of removing the out rim entirely - then you could bolt the new wheel and rim assemblly onto what's left of the inner rim. then you could pick whatever rim/tire combo you like.


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## ztnoo (Nov 26, 2015)

> I think nwcove is onto a tought there. The sawzall would do a job of removing the out rim entirely - then you could bolt the new wheel and rim assemblly onto what's left of the inner rim. then you could pick whatever rim/tire combo you like.


Well, I've already arrived at a solution......if you haven't reviewed the entire thread. But thanks for your suggestion.


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## ztnoo (Nov 26, 2015)

Well, I've finally resolved my axle spacer problem adapting the new pneumatic wheels/tires to my supposedly nearly 38 year old machine (by serial numbers).
At first I attempted using some new, very nice steel tubing I found online. My plan was to use a friend's bench machine hack saw to do the cutoffs to the dimensions I needed, maybe do a little end touch up on the lathe to smooth things out, but unfortunately, the ID was too tight. But I decided that boring to fit the axles was way too much trouble for the solution I was trying to achieve.

So, I looked around for a simpler solution and found it in the form of PVC electrical conduit tubing used in exterior applications because of its resistance to UV damage.
The conduit has a OD of 1 1/16" and and ID of 25/32", so it slid nicely over the axle with minimal play. I decided since the material was so easy to work with (electric miter box, drilling, and tapping) I would go a little overboard and install grease zerks to help fill the minimal clearance voids of the PVC spacers, and provide a little lubrication on the faces of the tubing, and also force a little grease into the bronze axle bearings on either side of the machine.
A little grease lubrication has to be beneficial to those bearings in the long run, and the zerks make that easy to do.

Note the double holes for klick pins on either axle end.









Also note snap ring channel to insure additional wheel retention. I'm not really sure the original intention of the outside hole.








Sample of PVC conduit I used for the axle spacers.








Spacers tapped, zerks installed with red Loctite.








Ditto, different angle.








Installed on axle.








Spacer with new wheel assembly installed.









Dropped the machine back on its wheels from the auger housing, filled the engine with the correct amount of oil (drained before wheel conversion project), put in a little gas, and fired the sucker up with the electric start.
Since I had a problem engaging first gear last year and I had recently installed the new friction wheel, some trial and error shift mechanism adjustment was required to allow the machine to go into neutral, yet engage all forward and reverse gears correctly. Reinstalled the bottom cover plate. After that was accomplished, I made final height adjustments to the new shave plate and new skids I had installed while working on the wheel project. Looks like I'm good to go now when the weather decides to take a turn toward the norm. The new friction wheel definitely adds a much more positive feel to engagement in any gear......no apparent slippage I can detect.

Without the great weather we've had so far this winter in north central Indiana, I would never have been able to pull off making updates to this solid older machine. I feel pretty lucky getting this done this time of year.

Regards,
Steve


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## Kiss4aFrog (Nov 3, 2013)

Nice job. Adding zerks where you can is always a great idea. In this case it might even help keep the bushing for the axle lubed a bit too !!


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