# "Made in the USA" versus "Made in China"



## sscotsman

*
(Note! the post below is the state of the industry in January 2013.
For the most recent update, Autumn 2018, click here.)*

I have been tracking this for a few years now..
here is the update for 2013:

The State of Snowblower evolution, 2013 model year.

Tecumseh snowblower engines, up to 2008, were always made in the USA. Briggs & Stratton engines were made in the USA for the majority of its history. Around the year 2000 (perhaps earlier in the 90’s) Briggs began their smaller gas engines in China.

Up until 2008, probably 90% of snowblowers were 100% American-made, both the snowblower body, and the engine both. Tecumseh had the majority of the snowblower engine market before 2008, and Briggs was still making their larger engines in the USA. Only the smaller Briggs engines were made in China.

Tecumseh pulled out of the small gas engine business in 2008. 2009 was the last model year that snowblowers were commonly found with Tecumseh engines on them. (2009 model year were machines that went on sale in the Autumn of 2008)

Since 2008, Production of small gas engines has moved to China in a huge way. 
In 2008, perhaps 90% of snowblowers had American-made engines on them.
Only 5 years later, in 2013, probably 90% have Chinese-made engines. And the percentage of American-made engines continues to drop. Soon it will likely be 100% Chinese engines on all snowblowers, lawnmowers, garden tractors, and anything with a small gas single-cylinder engine.

*Brand names with American-made snowblower bodies, and *some* American-made engines:*
(the last remaining 100% made in the USA snowblowers)

*Ariens* - Three models remaining in the 2013 lineup with American-made Briggs engines:
12V Pro 32, Platinum 30, Deluxe 30.
The rest of the models have Chinese engines.

Beginning this year, 2013 model year, "Made in the USA" stickers have appeared on engines of Ariens machines, which have the USA-made engines:








(im not sure if Ariens added the stickers, or if Briggs did.)
But this is the first model year those stickers have been seen on those engines, a handy spotting feature!

*Snapper* - (made by Briggs & Stratton)
Three models remaining in the 2013 lineup with American-made Briggs engines:
M1529E, H1528E, H1730E.
The rest of the models have Chinese engines.

*Simplicity* - (made by Briggs & Stratton)
Four models remaining in the 2013 lineup with American-made Briggs engines:
H1528E, H1730E, P1524E, P1728E.
The rest of the models have Chinese engines.

The Briggs brands are using the old Simplicity and Murray designs for their snowblowers.
Since 2005, the Briggs names have included Simplicity, Snapper, Murray, John Deere, 
and Brute. John Deere and Murray snowblowers are no longer being made. And Brute
is 100% Chinese engines.

*Husqvarna* - The evolutionary successor to the old AYP snowblower line.
One model remaining with an American-made Briggs engine.
14527E
The rest of the models have Chinese engines. 
Husqvarna also makes Polan snowblowers, Poulan has 100% Chinese engines.


That makes Eleven total snowblower models in 2013, from three manufacturers (Ariens, Briggs and Husqvarna) that are still 100% American made, both the snowblower, and the engine both. And the percentage drops every year. Soon it is likely we will have all Chinese engines on all snowblowers.


*Brand names with American-made snowblower bodies, and all Chinese-made engines, (as of 2013)
*
*MTD brands* (Cub Cadet, Troy-Bilt, Yard Machines, most Craftsman) - all Chinese engines. (starting in 2012)

*Toro* - All Chinese Engines. (starting in 2013)


*Brand names that are 100% made in China:*
In addition to Chinese engines on American-made snowblowers, we are now also seeing 100% Chinese made snowblowers, both the snowblower body, and the engine both. The following brands are known to be 100% Chinese built:

Stanley 
World Lawn
Snow Beast
Huskee
Powerland
Snow Joe 

The 100% American made snowblower (and lawnmower, and riding mower, and garden tractor) is fading fast..get them while you still can!

Which engines are the remaining American-made engines? Only three US-made snowblower engines remain:

Briggs & Stratton 305cc 1450 Series
Briggs & Stratton 342cc 1550 Series
Briggs & Stratton 342cc 1650 Series.

ALL other snowblower engines, including all Briggs engines except those three models, are made in China..(the exception being perhaps Honda snowblowers, who perhaps still makes some Honda engines in Japan, and China as well.)

But there are definitely only three remaining US-made engines.
(source for that info is “Snowmann” on the forums, who is known to work for Ariens,
He posted that info about the Briggs engines a few years ago.)

Other sources: Ariens 2013 brochure, Toro 2013 brochure, Cub Cadet brochure, other MTD brand webpages, Briggs & Stratton brand (Simplicity, Snapper) webpages, Husqvarna webpage.

Disclaimer 1 - yes, I know..someone will bring it up!  I am aware that when I say “100% American-made snowblower, both the snowblower body and engine both” that is not *literally* 100% true! Because some *parts* are made overseas..The American-made Briggs engine likely has parts made in China inside of it, and perhaps the “Made in America” snowblowers do as well! But im not concerned about that.
This is my criteria:
If its made in a factory on US soil, by US workers, then im calling it “Made in the USA”
If its made in a factory on Chinese soil, by Chinese workers, then im calling it “Made in China”
Im not concerned with the exact origin of every last nut and bolt. 

Disclaimer 2 - the above information is likely incomplete! Especially the “100% made in China snowblower” data..there are probably several brand names I am missing. Also, The above list primarily focuses on 2-stage snowblowers, because it is believed that 100% of Single-Stage snowblower engines are made in China, and have been for some time.

If anyone has any corrections or additions to this list, please let me know!
I have been tracking snowblower evolution since 2009, (and all the way back to 1960! With my Ariens webpage) and I will try to update this list every January. 

Thanks,
Scot


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## HCBPH

It's unfortunate but a fact of life, things once made here are now made elsewhere along with the jobs of creating them.
There's no single cause, but every consumer has to accept part of the blame. Every stockholder getting a dividend check is another. Every exec that is getting a fatter paycheck becuse of jobs no longer done here have a piece in this puzzle too.
It goes all up and down the food chain.


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## 69ariens

And we wonder why there is no jobs any more. We are spoiling are selves out of jobs by buying crap like mtd stuff . So briggs to keep cost down are out sourcing every thing. Another rising cost is unions. Heck if your a union worker it's hard to get fired. I know if I was drinking my lunch like those jeep workers and showed up at a client's house id loose that job.


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## Colored Eggs

sad to see it. Btw I was doing some research and Is Tecumseh (whats left of it) owned by the same company that creates lct engines. I have been trying to find out where they are manufactured.


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## uhall

Sscotsman, Thanks for all the great information on the different makes, models and engines of snowblowers that are made here and abroad. Since I'm more of a "Here" guy, this info will help me out the next time I'm in the market for another snowblower. 

As far as what 69ariens and HCBPH said, I couldn't have said it better. Just for giggles, the next time you're in your local store, go to the flag section and see where your American flag was made. It may surprise you.


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## Colored Eggs

Hey scot. Quick question. I do remember somewhere where I read that Ariens even had some Robin/Subaru engines on them. I checked them out and noticed they have manufaturing plant(s) in japan and a usa plant. Do you happen to know if the engines they had on the Ariens were American made? 

I can sort of see why they took them off. The are very expensive engines. I have one on my Go-kart and I'm going to see if I can see on it where it was made.


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## sscotsman

Colored Eggs said:


> Hey scot. Quick question. I do remember somewhere where I read that Ariens even had some Robin/Subaru engines on them. I checked them out and noticed they have manufaturing plant(s) in japan and a usa plant. Do you happen to know if the engines they had on the Ariens were American made?
> 
> I can sort of see why they took them off. The are very expensive engines. I have one on my Go-kart and I'm going to see if I can see on it where it was made.


Ariens did/does have a few models with the Subaru engine..starting in 2010, they have had a few models each year, and this year the Subaru engines are on the "power brush" models:

Power Brush

I dont know where they are made! have never seen any data on that..
Two Subaru engines are listed, 169cc and 265cc.
I will try to see if i can find out where they are made!

Subaru webpage for the engines:

Subaru Robin

They make no mention of where they are made..
But good question! I will try to find out..
Scot


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## Colored Eggs

SUBARU | Ecology | Regional Activities | Robin Manufacturing Inc. Is the only mention I have found. It really doesn't go into detail exactly where each model comes form though Or if there "put together" there and not actually made.


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## bwdbrn1

It seems to be a fact of life that we are in a global economy. Honda manufactures a number of outdoor products, and has plants in the USA. I've gotten parts from them that are labeled "Made in the USA", and others that are labeled "Assembled in the USA." I've also seen labels from them that say "Assembled in Japan from parts made in the USA."


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## [email protected]

For the record, here's Honda:

HS520A, HS520AS (single-stage): Engines are cast in Swepsonville, NC. Complete model assembly is also done in Swepsonville. Canadian and other export versions are also manufactured in Swepsonville. 

All others (2-stage wheel and track models HS724, HS928, HS1132, HS1136i): Engines are cast in Thailand, shipped to Japan, final assembly in Japan for global delivery to Honda distributors.

[email protected]
_Caveat: I work for Honda, but the preceding is my opinion alone._


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## sscotsman

Well, got some interesting news!
Briggs & Stratton posted this news release in April 2012:



> "Briggs & Stratton also announced that production of horizontal shaft engines currently made in the Auburn, Alabama plant will move to the Company’s existing production facility in Chongqing, China or be sourced from third parties in Southeast Asia. The Company previously moved smaller horizontal shaft engines to the Chongqing, China plant in 2007 where these types of engines can be made more competitively."


source: Briggs & Stratton Corporation Announces Strategic Actions and Cost Reductions : 01 : 2012 : News Articles : Briggs & Stratton News | BASCO : BASCO

I had assumed that *probably* meant that the last US-made Briggs snowblower engines would no longer be made in the USA..but it wasn't completely clear if those specific Snowblower engines were made at that plant, (Auburn, Alabama) or if they were made at a different Briggs plant in the US..It wasnt completely clear if the Briggs announcment would mean the end of the US-made *snowblower* engines specifically, those three models discussed above..

But now I have confirmation..

yes, it does in fact refer to those engines..

Which means..The last USA-made snowblower engines, ever! were last made in 2012!
This model year, 2013 model year (snowblowers that went on sale in the Autumn of 2012) will almost certainly be the last ever 100% Made in the USA snowblowers..

Many snowblower bodies will continue to be made in the USA (Ariens, Toro, the MTD brands, the Briggs brands, and Husquvarna) but not the engines..

(actually, im still not sure about the Subaru engines! I dont think they are made in the USA..but I will post if/when I find out..)

Scot

"Nobody told me there'd be days like these,
Strange days indeed -- strange days indeed.."
-John Lennon


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## sscotsman

Ok! got all the data now..

The Subaru snowblower engines are made in Japan or China.
(depending on the size and model)
Only larger Subaru engines have been made in the USA, for things like snowmobiles,
but not for snowblowers.

So thats the final rundown then..
its official..
as of the end of 2012, there are no longer *any* snowblower engines made in the USA. 
and by extension, the era of the "100% made in the USA snowblower" has now ended..
This model year, 2013 model year, is the last..
a few are out there for sale this winter, (models and manufacturers discussed in the first thread)
but next year, probably not..

As for me, someday I will own one of these last models! 
but not this year..I will have to wait 10 years or so and buy one used! 
But I will get one, eventually..

I will also check the new models next winter, just to confirm..
but its pretty clear this is the winter it finally happened..

thanks,
Scot


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## Colored Eggs

Looks like you did a lot of digging. To bad to see them all move on except for the ss honda. Maybe someday they will come back or some new company will show up out of nowhere and create some usa engines.


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## Quickrick

*Engines from China*

Guys, 

I saw your thread and there was a question about a Subaru Engine. I bought one to replace the 6 hp Tecumseh that did a great job for many years on a Cyclone Leaf Rake. 

This is typically excellent designed piece that starts, idles and runs just like you want. It's overhead cam and overhead valve. It is called an EX17 and is 6hp with 170cc displacement........it too is made in China. Subaru Robin - Features and Benefits

QR


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## micah68kj

Colored Eggs said:


> Looks like you did a lot of digging. To bad to see them all move on except for the ss honda. Maybe someday they will come back or some new company will show up out of nowhere and create some usa engines.


As long as John Q. Public buys them they won't be back. Just my 2c but I believe there should be a boycott. 

Thanks for all the work you put into this, Scot. Lots of good info.


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## detdrbuzzard

has there been a problem with the engines made in china? i know toro had a carb problem on the 421 models but nothing about an engine problem


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## 69ariens

William. I think it's not quality but more of lost jobs to good people of the usa.


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## detdrbuzzard

69ariens said:


> William. I think it's not quality but more of lost jobs to good people of the usa.


 company's use to have loyalty to their workers now days companys just want the work done by the cheapest labor they can get and these company's don't always have to ship work over seas to get cheap labor


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## micah68kj

I'm not buying Chinese as long as there are alternatives. That would include rebuilding an older engine/machine. Keep the cash in our country. Again, this is just my humble 2c.


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## sscotsman

micah68kj said:


> I'm not buying Chinese as long as there are alternatives. That would include rebuilding an older engine/machine. Keep the cash in our country. Again, this is just my humble 2c.


yep, I agree..
I have a 1971 Ariens, a 1964 Wheel Horse tractor, and im looking for a 1961 Cub Cadet tractor..I will never, ever ever ever ever ever, put a Chinese engine on any of them! (especially those cheap Harbor Freight engines..those are doubly insulting to the heritage of my machines! Chinese *and* junky quality..the exact opposite of everything they stand for..)

It would be like restoring a 1965 Ford Mustang, and dropping a Hyundai engine in it..

Scot


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## Bain

sscotsman said:


> yep, I agree..
> I have a 1971 Ariens, a 1964 Wheel Horse tractor, and im looking for a 1961 Cub Cadet tractor..I will never, ever ever ever ever ever, put a Chinese engine on any of them! (especially those cheap Harbor Freight engines..those are doubly insulting to the heritage of my machines! Chinese *and* junky quality..the exact opposite of everything they stand for..)
> 
> It would be like restoring a 1965 Ford Mustang, and dropping a Hyundai engine in it..
> 
> Scot


Hyundai is Korean 

Anyways, with the rise of the middle class in china and the increase in exchange value of the Chinese Yuan(dollar). Soon(5-10 years) those overseas jobs will be moving somewhere else .


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## Simplicity Solid 22

Yeah unfortunately the jobs will move to another third world part of a very poor country to find the cheapest labor at all costs but the plant they build will be superior.
Sad sad sad. 

I have a question....are the briggs and stratton parts(friction disc...worm gear...etc) are they still made here in the usa or shipped from china,thailand???


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## sscotsman

Bain said:


> Hyundai is Korean


I know!  doesnt matter..the point is the same either way!
China, Korea..its all the same to me.
Scot


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## sscotsman

Simplicity Solid 22 said:


> I have a question....are the briggs and stratton parts(friction disc...worm gear...etc) are they still made here in the usa or shipped from china,thailand???


I am not absolutely 100% certain, but im 90% certain that the Briggs snowblower bodies (everything except the engines) are still made in the USA..the current Snapper and Simplicity lines are based on the old Simplicity patterns (for the larger 2-stage machines) and the old Murray patterns (the smaller 2-stage machines)..this also applied to John Deere snowblowers from 2005 to 2012. (JD snowblowers are no longer being made, as of last winter)

Although many smaller parts are now made in China..nuts and bolts and what-not..so its quite hard to know where everything is made anymore..but as far as I know, the Snapper, Simplicity and Brute snowblowers (the "briggs brands") are still made in the USA..with US-parts and designs..

(all bets are off with single-stage machines however..they could be 100% Chinese made by now for all I know..)

Scot


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## HCBPH

*Parts*

I've seem probably more than 50% of the Tecumseh parts I buy (since Briggs bought them out after bankruptsy) are labeled from overseas so I'm guessing it's the same for parts for Briggs engines etc. Unfortunately unless something happens, I expect more and more items to come from overseas as time progresses.


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## sscotsman

I dont think current Tecumseh parts have anything to do with Briggs..
The Tecumseh name is being used under license by LCT, who makes engines in China.
There are new "snow king" engines being made, which was the name of the snowblower engine line Tecumseh used to make in the USA..but the new Snow King engines are made in China by LCT, and are not based on US-made Tecumseh engine designs at all...
only the name is being used..

So the Tecumseh name is still out there, and parts are still being made..
but anything new is coming from China, and im 90% sure (but not 100% sure) that it has nothing to do with Briggs..

Scot


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## HCBPH

*Tecumseh parts*

Pretty sure the last set of Tecumseh points and condensor I bought were labeled Briggs and virtually every Tecumseh carb kit I've bought is labeled Briggs. I thought Briggs bought the rights to at least the replacement parts for the Tecumsehs back around 2009 or so, same with Murray and a number of other companies over the years. Whether they still have it all I don't know. I also know they label things like bushings, bearings, cables, etc for alot of things that come from overseas for various models of parts I've gotten.

Seems like almost every part I've bought lately is labled Briggs, no matter what it is. About the only other brand I see much of, if not Briggs then it's Stens.

Not saying they make them only that they label them.


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## sscotsman

hmm..could be Briggs/Tecumseh then!
who knows..I heard back in 2008/2009 that LCT had bought the rights to Tecumseh not Briggs..but perhaps that was correct then, but a few years later its now Briggs?
its a very difficult industry to keep track of..

Scot


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## micah68kj

69ariens said:


> William. I think it's not quality but more of lost jobs to good people of the usa.


Well put Scot. My sentiments exactly. 
Keep U.S. jobs in the U.S.A. If companies won't manufacture their products here we shouldn't buy their product. Again it's my humble 2c.


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## micah68kj

sscotsman said:


> yep, I agree..
> I have a 1971 Ariens, a 1964 Wheel Horse tractor, and im looking for a 1961 Cub Cadet tractor..I will never, ever ever ever ever ever, put a Chinese engine on any of them! (especially those cheap Harbor Freight engines..those are doubly insulting to the heritage of my machines! Chinese *and* junky quality..the exact opposite of everything they stand for..)
> 
> 
> Scot


You think like me Scot. I have a 1968 W.H. tractor, 1978 Gilson and a plethora of old Troy Bilt tanks.......I mean tillers. All have big ol' heavy Kohler engines that are still all original. The Pony tillers have Briggs. All U.S. mfd. to last a lifetime.


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## HCBPH

*Parts*

It's hard to keep something 100% US when the replacement parts are lableled like this and you have no alternative:


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## Simplicity Solid 22

Thanks for the info on briggs parts sscotsman!!!!


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## JRHAWK9

Scot,
Any info on those new 420cc "Briggs made" engines found on the new Ariens Pro models? I know they are made in China, but was of the understanding they are still 100% Briggs designed/made. I emailed a guy I know who works at Briggs in the Milwaukee, WI plant in R&D and this was his reply:



> That 25 c.i. ,21 ft/lb engine is a decedent of a generator spec engine that came out 2 years ago. It is no way affiliated with another Chinese engine mfg however. We build it in our plant and to our engineering and r&d specs like any other Briggs engine. It has more in common with a Honda 420 cc then anything else. But that engine is an over built, good running, tough engine!


After looking around though it seems these 420cc "Briggs" engines look eerily similar to all these -CHINESE HONDA CLONES- you can find at Harbor Freight, etc. I have no idea if they are connected, but judging by the similar looks it's easy to assume they are. 

Just though I would ask to see what you know about these newer 420cc Briggs. 

The -ARIENS 2100 POLAR FORCE- is the same as the -PROFESSIONAL SERIES SNOW 2100-


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## sscotsman

JRHAWK9 said:


> After looking around though it seems these 420cc "Briggs" engines look eerily similar to all these -CHINESE HONDA CLONES- you can find at Harbor Freight, etc. I have no idea if they are connected, but judging by the similar looks it's easy to assume they are.



Its almost impossible to know what is *really* going in China..but we can make some guesses by the way engines end up looking..

I agree, that Harbor Freight engine looks just like a briggs!
I bet this is what has happened..Its probably not a "Honda clone"..its probably a "Briggs clone"! and very possibly an illegal Briggs clone at that..
(I dont know how Harbor Freight can legally sell those engines..They are so obviously ripped off from Honda and Briggs..)

So my guess its a Chinese copy of a Briggs design..
there are probably hundreds of factories in China making these engines..and only a small percentage of them are "legal", according to our western definition of legal..China doesn't care too much about copyright and intellectual property, and there is so much money in illegal counterfeiting/cloning that the Chinese government doesn't do anything about it..

If you really want to be scared and disgusted, check this out:

Attack of the Clones: Chinese copies of the Honda CR-V

Chinese Clones - The Story of Soulless and Affordable Cars - autoevolution

Its a sad state of affairs out there..
People need to think twice the next time they are tempted to walk into a Walmart,
or buy that Harbor Freight engine..because when they do, they are encouraging all this,
and directly contributing to intellectual property theft, and putting Americans out of jobs..
and the worst part is, most Americans don't even have a clue that they are doing it.
all they are thinking is "yay! cheap stuff!"..but those low prices come with a big cost..

Scot


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## sscotsman

Update!
everything above about *two-stage* snowblowers is still correct,
but I had speculated that all single-stage snowblower engines would probably be made in China as well..this is not the case!  It turns out there are in fact two remaining single-stage snowblowers that are totally made in the USA! including the engine..they are made by Honda in the USA..thanks to Robet for the info:



[email protected] said:


> Honda single-stage throwers [HS520A (pull-start), HS520AS (120V AC electric start)] will continue to be made at the Honda plant in Swepsonville, NC. This includes the casting and assembly of the engine, all they way to final assembly of the completed product. This plant has made Honda mowers and loose engines too, since 1982.


From this thread: http://www.snowblowerforum.com/forum/general-snowblower-discussion/1439-chinese-engines.html

Scot


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## Jzone99

I know this topic is old but being that it is the 2013/14 snow season and according to this form, you can not get any USA made engines, blower. How about this new old stock from grainger. I think it is from the 2012/13 year maybe even 2011? Is this the last made USA blowers and is it worth it. Seems overpriced (original price, not clearance)
SNAPPER Snow Blower, 2 Stage, 29 In. - Snow Blowers - 11L635|1696003 - Grainger Industrial Supply????? If it is in fact a USA ENGINE (305), and a good blower, I would buy it, though it is over my budget. They would ship it to a local store for free.


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## Shryp

That doesn't even look like a true Snapper. Looks more like a Murray design from when they were bought out.


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## Jzone99

*that is the problem with buying on line.*

I don't like buying online for that reason. If it was a Murray wouldn't the model # (1696003) be different. I know that simplicity and snapper have the same code names such as ....H1528e.... but the model numbers are always different.


Here is the listing of last years model at another vendor site but discontinued/soldout....Snapper 1696003 - M1529E (29") 305cc Two-Stage Snow Blower
I also wonder how good could the engine be if it was the last 100 made in use from a factory that is being shutdown and outsourced to another country.


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## Shryp

Murray and Simplicity were bought by Briggs and Stratton so now all of the blowers were merged. It is a Simplicity, but it is using the cheaper Murray design.


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## Jzone99

Here is the possible similar murray Murray 1695720 - (29") 305cc Two-Stage Snow Blower.
point is I am looking to purchase and have narrowed it down to three.
1. The snapper mentioned above if it is a genuine USA.
2. China/USA Simplicity H1528E M#1696237 Simplicity 1696237 - H1528E (28") 305cc Two-Stage Snow Blower
or
3. China/Mexican Toro Power Max 826OE M#37772 (seems like a good model for the price but a lot of plastic.
Educated opinions welcomed!!!


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## sscotsman

Update for the 2014 model year. 
(Snowblowers that went on sale in the Autumn of 2013, for winter 2013/2014.)

It turns out that the models talked about in the first post of this thread, for the 2013 model year, (winter 2012/2013) were in fact the last 100% made in the USA 2-stage snowblowers..(it was only a few models, see the first post in this thread for the details.)

Starting this year, 2014 model year, (machines going on sale in the Autumn of 2013)

1. All *2-stage* snowblower *engines* are now made in China, on all snowblowers by all manufacturers.

2. All Toro 2-stage snowblowers are now made in Mexico.

Ariens snowblowers (everything except the engines) are still made in the USA.
The only remaining 100% made in the USA snowblowers, the snowblower itself and the engine, are believed to be the two Honda single-stage models.

Scot


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## sscotsman

Since 2005, when Briggs & Stratton took over the Murray, Snapper, Simplicity, and John Deere snowblower lines, (and created a new one called "Brute") and merged them all together into one product line, they have used two different ancestral patterns for their current (2005 to present) snowblowers..(the John Deere snowblower line was dropped in 2011.)

1. The ancestral Murray design for the "consumer" and entry-level machines.
2. The ancestral Simplicity design for the higher-end and "pro" machines.

All the brands have the same machines, just painted up differently and given different model numbers.. The two ancestral designs are pretty easy to tell apart, if you are familiar with Simplicity:

Murray pattern:









Simplicity pattern:









Looking at the current webpages, (for Snapper, Simplicity, Murray and Brute..John Deere snowblowers are no longer being made) It looks like only the Simplicity brand is still offering the original Simplicity pattern, on the monster Pro series machines..all the rest are most likely Murrays..

Scot


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## seaox

*Engine quality honda 390x vs ariens 420 & 414*

NAFTA & THE SELLING OUT OF THE AMERICAN ECONOMY & WORKER ASIDE; WHAT ARE THE MEMBERS OPINIONS OF THE QUALITY AND RELIABILITY OF THE HONDA 390X ENGINES VERSES THE ARIENS PRO 420 ENGINE VS THE ARIENS PLATINUM 414 CC ENGINES. I NOTE THAT THE HONDA 390X SEEMS UNIVERSALLY ACCEPTED AS A PREMIUM, TROUBLE FREE & TOUGH COMMERCIAL GRADE ENGINE. CORRECT?? WHAT IS THE CONSENSUS OF THE BUILD QUALITY & RELIABILITY OF THE ARIENS PRO SERIES 420 CC AND THE PLATINUM 414 CC? WHY DOES ARIENS OFFER TWO 414+ CC ENGINES? ONE WOULD THINK IT WOULD BE MORE EFFICIENT TO BUILD ONE HIGH END LARGE DISPLACEMENT ENGINE?? *ARE THE THE NEGATIVE COMMENTS ABOUT CHINESE MANUFACTURED ENGINES CAUSED BY A TRACK RECORD OF POOR QUALITY & MECHANICAL PROBLEMS ???* * OR IS IT THE POLITICAL ISSUE???*

FRANKLY WHEN I SHELLING OUT MONEY FOR A TOOL, I WANT THE BEST ENGINEERED PRODUCT AVAILABLE. THANK YOU IN ADVANCE FOR YOUR OPINIONS.


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## GustoGuy

seaox said:


> NAFTA & THE SELLING OUT OF THE AMERICAN ECONOMY & WORKER ASIDE; WHAT ARE THE MEMBERS OPINIONS OF THE QUALITY AND RELIABILITY OF THE HONDA 390X ENGINES VERSES THE ARIENS PRO 420 ENGINE VS THE ARIENS PLATINUM 414 CC ENGINES. I NOTE THAT THE HONDA 390X SEEMS UNIVERSALLY ACCEPTED AS A PREMIUM, TROUBLE FREE & TOUGH COMMERCIAL GRADE ENGINE. CORRECT?? WHAT IS THE CONSENSUS OF THE BUILD QUALITY & RELIABILITY OF THE ARIENS PRO SERIES 420 CC AND THE PLATINUM 414 CC? WHY DOES ARIENS OFFER TWO 414+ CC ENGINES? ONE WOULD THINK IT WOULD BE MORE EFFICIENT TO BUILD ONE HIGH END LARGE DISPLACEMENT ENGINE?? *ARE THE THE NEGATIVE COMMENTS ABOUT CHINESE MANUFACTURED ENGINES CAUSED BY A TRACK RECORD OF POOR QUALITY & MECHANICAL PROBLEMS ???* *OR IS IT THE POLITICAL ISSUE???*
> 
> FRANKLY WHEN I SHELLING OUT MONEY FOR A TOOL, I WANT THE BEST ENGINEERED PRODUCT AVAILABLE. THANK YOU IN ADVANCE FOR YOUR OPINIONS.


Well it seems that the LCT engines made for Ariens are holding up rather well and they do have cast iron liners and dual ball bearing crankshaft support simular to the design used by Honda. Most of the original flat heads other than the Briggs I/C commercial engines simply had non lined aluminum bores and bushing only crank shaft support. I am not sure why the American engine manufactures were so late to the party and did not innovate and continued to make the same L head (flat head engines) for years and once they finally came around to making OHV engines the party was pretty much over since Honda already had secured a large market share and the first Chinese engines had come out. 

I heard Briggs and Stratton originally wanted to build OHV engines here in the USA to take over from Tecumseh for the snow engines for snow blowers and they were basically given red tape by the EPA and the cost of meeting American regulations on manufacturing and waste disposal was much higher than it would be to have Chinese companies make these engines. It seems like manufacturing in America is more than just having to pay your workers higher wages it is also about regulation too.


----------



## seaox

SO WHO BUILDS THE BETTER ENGINES? ARE ALL ENGINES NOW EQUAL?? Sorry, although I am familiar with many of the not so subtle differences between car engines, I am not familiar with the design differences between the manufacturers on these small air cooled engines. Are these large 414cc & 420cc American Briggs & Stratton engines comparable in longevity and reliability as the Honda 390X. Or does Honda simply build a better engine by virtue of a better engineered design? ...When I see or hear Briggs & Stratton, I automatically visualize the old B&S engine I spent hundreds+ of hours staring at on top of my father's lawn mower. When I hear Honda, I visualize all the modern engines & innovations in their multi-cylinder motorcycle line. While the B&S ran forever, I always perceived that Honda produced a better, more advanced, better designed engine. ... Although its not fair to compare small ticket item lawn mower engines with the pricey motorcycle engines, it is likely that Honda learned a lot through its years of building much more exotic multi-cylinder engines. Lessons perhaps it applied to its single cylinder designs?? ... Don't know ...Just wondering?? 

Of course once one manufacturer makes design improvements, one would expect others to quickly follow. Then its a question of who is better in the execution.,,,,So who builds the best snowblower engines? & what makes them better??


----------



## GustoGuy

seaox said:


> SO WHO BUILDS THE BETTER ENGINES? ARE ALL ENGINES NOW EQUAL?? Sorry, although I am familiar with many of the not so subtle differences between car engines, I am not familiar with the design differences between the manufacturers on these small air cooled engines. Are these large 414cc & 420cc American Briggs & Stratton engines comparable in longevity and reliability as the Honda 390X. Or does Honda simply build a better engine by virtue of a better engineered design? ...When I see or hear Briggs & Stratton, I automatically visualize the old B&S engine I spent hundreds+ of hours staring at on top of my father's lawn mower. When I hear Honda, I visualize all the modern engines & innovations in their multi-cylinder motorcycle line. While the B&S ran forever, I always perceived that Honda produced a better, more advanced, better designed engine. ... Although its not fair to compare small ticket item lawn mower engines with the pricey motorcycle engines, it is likely that Honda learned a lot through its years of building much more exotic multi-cylinder engines. Lessons perhaps it applied to its single cylinder designs?? ... Don't know ...Just wondering??
> 
> Of course once one manufacturer makes design improvements, one would expect others to quickly follow. Then its a question of who is better in the execution.,,,,So who builds the best snowblower engines? & what makes them better??


Both Honda and Yamaha make very nice and reliable great running engines but they tend to cost more than some simular designed engines that are available on the market today. I think Briggs has finally got it's act togather and it's engines seem to be well made and run very nice too. As to Tecumseh? I may be a bit jaded by owning a rather poor running Tecumseh since I used to waste more time trying to start that thing then any engine I ever owned. As of 2008 Tecumseh is longer in the small engine bussiness and it has been bought out by a Chinese comapny called LCT which makes the Ariens snow blower engines. The Briggs on the MGW Gilson made snow blower always starts in 2 to 3 pulls of the recoil from stone cold. However it does not run near as smoothly as the 212cc Predator OHV engine. *Plus the Honda and Predator OHV engines have a cast iron cylinder liners and dual ball bearing support on the crankshaft. The old Flat Head Briggs only has 2 bushings supporting the crankshaft and a relatively soft aluminum bore for the piston. Plus the side valve in block design did not allow for intake and exhaust flow as efficiently as the Honda OHV design. Per cc a Honda or even a Chinese made OHV engine will out preform a flat head engine and will also get better fuel economy too*. It seems that the Chinese made Ariens and Briggs are good running well made engines that seem to be up to the task. Likewise my Loncin made OHV Predator 212cc engine is made by the same company that makes Toro's engines. The old Grey hounds were made by Lifan in China and were pretty nice running decent engines as well but they were a direct copy of the Honda Gx series OHV small engines and Honda sued them successfully and they were taken off the market. The Chinese engines have only been out for 4 to 5 years in any significant numbers but they seem to be reliable good running engines. Unless some information appears about problems with these engines or lots of these engines start failing I will continue to say they are reliable good running engines.


----------



## seaox

Thank you!! Thank you!! For the information and patience.


----------



## escapefoot

*Quick question*

Hi everyone. I have a quick question.

I just bought a left over Craftsman with a Briggs and Stratton engine and I was trying to figure out if its a made in the USA. The engine says its a 14.2 TP Model number 20m314-0137-F1. Does this mean it is a 1450 series with a 305cc engine?

Any idea what the horsepower is on the 305cc?

Thank you


----------



## detdrbuzzard

about 10hp


----------



## Nforesir

sscotsman said:


> hmm..could be Briggs/Tecumseh then!
> who knows..I heard back in 2008/2009 that LCT had bought the rights to Tecumseh not Briggs..but perhaps that was correct then, but a few years later its now Briggs?
> its a very difficult industry to keep track of..
> 
> 
> Scot


Hello, just finished researching for a snow blower, this info is straight from Ariens, that LCT known as Liquid Combustion Technology an American Company, continues to build off some of the old Tecumseh snow engines.....so I expect they are still in the mix with Tecumseh somehow, LCT is also building some the the engines for the Ariens snow blower line.....


----------



## Nforesir

Jzone99 said:


> Here is the possible similar murray Murray 1695720 - (29") 305cc Two-Stage Snow Blower.
> point is I am looking to purchase and have narrowed it down to three.
> 1. The snapper mentioned above if it is a genuine USA.
> 2. China/USA Simplicity H1528E M#1696237 Simplicity 1696237 - H1528E (28") 305cc Two-Stage Snow Blower
> or
> 3. China/Mexican Toro Power Max 826OE M#37772 (seems like a good model for the price but a lot of plastic.
> Educated opinions welcomed!!!


Look at the Ariens deluxe 24 inch, probaly < $ 100 more than the Toro, but better value, all metal, larger tires, light, 14 inch auger and impeller...


----------



## m1234

How can I tell where the engine on my Honda 2-stage HSS724TC was made? The handle bar control panel clearly says "Made in Japan", but I can't see any markings on the engine to show where it was manufactured.


----------



## Runner50

My guess would be "Made in Japan" refers to the entire blower, including the engine. But it is a guess, so take it for what it's worth.


----------



## sscotsman

There was a recent question in this forum (another thread) about Kohler engines..Arent there still some smaller gas engines, made by Kohler, that could fit on a snowblower, that are still made in the USA?

The answer is 99.9% likely to be: No.

I have scoured the internet..lots of chatter on snowblower/lawnmower/tractor/dirt bike forums about small gas engines being made in China..and it is known for a fact that Kohler, like Briggs, has moved some of their engine manufacturing to China..But it seems that Kohler, like Briggs, is only making larger gas engines in the USA still..and the "smaller" gas engines, that would fit on a snowblower, are all made in China..

So the answer to the question:
"Are there still any new gas engines for a 2-stage snowblower, being made in the USA?"
is: No.

However the answer to the question:
"Can I still find a new gas engine for a 2-stage snowblower, made in the USA?"
is: Yes..for now.

NOS engines (New Old Stock)..meaning an older engine, probably 5 to 10 years old, made in the USA, but still not sold and out on a dealers shelf somewhere..they still exist! for now..but of course they will get harder to find all the time..This leaves us all with four options for engine replacement..(lifted from another thread)

For replacement when an engines dies..there are four options:

1. Fix it. (you can still find shops that will do this, and many people learn to do it themselves)
2. Replace with a similar, but better condition, used or refurbished engine.
3. Replace with a similar (Briggs or Tecumseh) NOS engine. (new, but several years old.)
4. Replace with a new Chinese engine.

I recommend options 1, 2 and 3..
I will *never* choose option 4, but some people do.

Personally, I am going to be using used engines for the rest of my life..
My 42 year old Tecumseh on my '71 Ariens is still working..if it does ever fail, there are still a ton of 5 to 30 year old, used, replacement engines that will still work fine..and I have started to see smaller OPE dealers that are beginning to refurbish and repair older engines, and offer them up for sale as replacement engines! This will probably be a growing market..So there is no real need to ever buy a new Chinese replacement engine..except for cost or convenience..

I also have a 1964 Wheel Horse Tractor..and a 1961 Snowbird snowblower..and the collection will continue to grow!  old engines will still be available for quite some time..im not worried about it..I can keep my 100% American made machines running with 100% American made engines for the rest of my days...

It is not true that will you *have* to buy a Chinese engine, It is not true that you will have no other choice..if you choose to buy one, fine..but that's just a choice, not a requirement.

If you are wondering why you should not choose option four, check out here:
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/scottychaos/Ariens/page2.html

and here:
http://1stclass.mylargescale.com/scottychaos/Ariens/rant.html

Thats my opinion on the matter..

And now, for the rebuttal, and an alternate opinion, stay tuned for the obligatory reply by Gustoguy, with his 327th post this month extolling the wondrous virtues of Chinese engines..take it away Gusto! 

Scot


----------



## micah68kj

Kohler with 6 ponies.. Other sizes available. Not sure they could be converted to winter use. Not sure this particular engine, or any of their engines a mfd. in U. S. now.


----------



## detdrbuzzard

kohler sh265 is what i was looking at


----------



## micah68kj

detdrbuzzard said:


> kohler sh265 is what i was looking at


For what application William?


----------



## detdrbuzzard

micah68kj said:


> For what application William?


 do you really expect me to remember something i did yesterday 
i only remember the model number because i wrote it down
Kohler Engines: Home


----------



## [email protected]

m1234 said:


> How can I tell where the engine on my Honda 2-stage HSS724TC was made? The handle bar control panel clearly says "Made in Japan", but I can't see any markings on the engine to show where it was manufactured.


The engines for all Honda's USA model 2-stage snowblowers are cast and assembled at a Honda plant in Thailand, then shipped to Honda's final assembly plant in Japan, where the frame, transmission, controls, etc. are all bolted together and the unit is test-fired, then crated and shipped out to Honda warehouses all over the globe.

FYI, single-stage Honda snowblowers (and their engines) are completely mfg. in Swepsonville, North Carolina, since 1982.


----------



## Paddledog52

micah68kj said:


> Well put Scot. My sentiments exactly.
> Keep U.S. jobs in the U.S.A. If companies won't manufacture their products here we shouldn't buy their product. Again it's my humble 2c.


Gets to the point there is nothing to buy. What will you wear? I hate it too!


----------



## Paddledog52

sscotsman said:


> There was a recent question in this forum (another thread) about Kohler engines..Arent there still some smaller gas engines, made by Kohler, that could fit on a snowblower, that are still made in the USA?
> 
> The answer is 99.9% likely to be: No.
> 
> I have scoured the internet..lots of chatter on snowblower/lawnmower/tractor/dirt bike forums about small gas engines being made in China..and it is known for a fact that Kohler, like Briggs, has moved some of their engine manufacturing to China..But it seems that Kohler, like Briggs, is only making larger gas engines in the USA still..and the "smaller" gas engines, that would fit on a snowblower, are all made in China..
> 
> So the answer to the question:
> "Are there still any new gas engines for a 2-stage snowblower, being made in the USA?"
> is: No.
> 
> However the answer to the question:
> "Can I still find a new gas engine for a 2-stage snowblower, made in the USA?"
> is: Yes..for now.
> 
> NOS engines (New Old Stock)..meaning an older engine, probably 5 to 10 years old, made in the USA, but still not sold and out on a dealers shelf somewhere..they still exist! for now..but of course they will get harder to find all the time..This leaves us all with four options for engine replacement..(lifted from another thread)
> 
> For replacement when an engines dies..there are four options:
> 
> 1. Fix it. (you can still find shops that will do this, and many people learn to do it themselves)
> 2. Replace with a similar, but better condition, used or refurbished engine.
> 3. Replace with a similar (Briggs or Tecumseh) NOS engine. (new, but several years old.)
> 4. Replace with a new Chinese engine.
> 
> I recommend options 1, 2 and 3..
> I will *never* choose option 4, but some people do.
> 
> Personally, I am going to be using used engines for the rest of my life..
> My 42 year old Tecumseh on my '71 Ariens is still working..if it does ever fail, there are still a ton of 5 to 30 year old, used, replacement engines that will still work fine..and I have started to see smaller OPE dealers that are beginning to refurbish and repair older engines, and offer them up for sale as replacement engines! This will probably be a growing market..So there is no real need to ever buy a new Chinese replacement engine..except for cost or convenience..
> 
> I also have a 1964 Wheel Horse Tractor..and a 1961 Snowbird snowblower..and the collection will continue to grow!  old engines will still be available for quite some time..im not worried about it..I can keep my 100% American made machines running with 100% American made engines for the rest of my days...
> 
> It is not true that will you *have* to buy a Chinese engine, It is not true that you will have no other choice..if you choose to buy one, fine..but that's just a choice, not a requirement.
> 
> If you are wondering why you should not choose option four, check out here:
> The Ariens 1960's and 1970's Sno-Thro info site.
> 
> and here:
> The Ariens 1960's and 1970's Sno-Thro info site.
> 
> Thats my opinion on the matter..
> 
> And now, for the rebuttal, and an alternate opinion, stay tuned for the obligatory reply by Gustoguy, with his 327th post this month extolling the wondrous virtues of Chinese engines..take it away Gusto!
> 
> Scot


where would you get a new tire?

thanks for you work I am puking now as I have been for the last 30 years hard.


----------



## Paddledog52

try to buy a #2 shovel made in the USA or most any shovel.


----------



## Paddledog52

Here is the whole skinny on it. When you get killed in a coal mine in China they send a check to your family for about 150-200 dollars end of story. They kill hundreds every year I think even a 1,000+ some years. It is cheaper to pay the dead than mine with safety standards used in the USA and other countries. I have a construction business and the labor burden which is the taxes I pay on employee, General liability, and workerscomp is 43%. So for every dollar I pay in the envelop I have to add 43 cents to it to cover labor burden.

What is the cost in china and third world countries?

What does it cost to build a plant in china vs USA or the taxes on the plant?

95% of the garments used in the USA are made overseas where 30-40 years ago most was made in the USA.

Politicians keep signing USA jobs away. Not only are the trade deals bad even the bad trade deals are not enforced. China signs the trade agreement in the same room for decades as the laugh at the lack of enforcement.

It takes years to take something to the World Trade Org and tons of money like Titan tire did because china has been dumping tires here below cost to get market share. Japan did it with cars and electronics also.

Japan makes companies run a gauntlet of regulations to prevent competition from abroad. GM cannot build a plant in Japan period. If you go to china it has to be a join venture with a chinese company. They they steal all the technology from GM and others. China has at a minimum 50,000 industrial spies in the USA alone never mind the rest of the world.

It's about over. This is why each recession takes longer to end and REAL wages cannot go up in this country.

People like it cheap till it's their job. Trade is good but one way trade is not.

We need to treat foreign countries like they treat the USA. At 61 I have seen the collapse glad I'll be dead to not see what the younger people will see here. NO MATTER what I buy I look at the label. If there is a choice I take the lesser of two evils because you will see china confront the USA sooner or later. They are already buzzing US warships to test us. If they lose 2-3 hundred thousand people in a war it's no big deal to them.

Dog treats and food from china kill US pets. Guess what many prescription drugs you may take are made in china with little and no inspection.

years ago GM wanted to sell CTS in china they were talking in the hundreds I think 700 units. China told GM you want to sell them here you build them here. Guess what GM is doing now along with Jeep? Building them in China.


----------



## micah68kj

Paddledog... These yougsters don't understand anything but a dollar. My parents lived through both world wars and my Dad was an Army vet, WWll vintage. My FIL was stationed at Hickam Field on Dec. 7, 1941. I'm second youngest of eight.
As you so succinctly stated buying offshore cheap is great until it's*your* job.
I mean no disrespect to no one but some people just don't get it. As you also said, I'm certainly glad I'm 60.


----------



## Surge

Paddledog52 said:


> try to buy a #2 shovel made in the USA or most any shovel.


I purchase USA shovels at ACE stores.

For example I recently purchased the True Temper Arctic Blast 1641200 18-Inch Lift-Rite Aluminum Snow Shovel to clear my patio.
ACE Hardware stores usually offer the best price.


----------



## detdrbuzzard

Surge said:


> I purchase USA shovels at ACE stores.
> 
> For example I recently purchased the True Temper Arctic Blast 1641200 18-Inch Lift-Rite Aluminum Snow Shovel to clear my patio.
> ACE Hardware stores usually offer the best price.


 from what i have heard what ace hardware's stock is all usa made


----------



## Runner50

Spot on Paddledog. At 63, I'm also one of the older folks here & completely agree. It truly is sad to see what's going on in this country today. We're being sold down the river, all in the name of greed & the almighty dollar.


----------



## sscotsman

Dont forget, the corporations arent doing this by themselves..you cant blame only the companys for moving the jobs overseas..The American Consumer is also an accomplice in all of this..Most people demand cheap junk, they dont care about quality, they only care about price..If you are a company making a $25 widget in the USA, with American workers, and your competition moves their production to China and now offers $15 widgets for sale, you might go out of business..the vast majority of shoppers will buy the $15 item made in China..not your $25 one..even if yours is better.

I saw a story a few years back (I think it was on 20/20) about Walmart..
Rubbermaid used to be a quality US-made brandname..all their products made in the USA..Walmart sets the prices they will pay for products, from companys that make the products..the companys dont get to tell Walmart how much it costs..

Walmart demanded a price Rubbermaid was unable to meet..if they kept production in the USA..So they had to move production to China, in order to survive as a company..If Rubbermaid said "no, we cant meet that price point..its too low" Walmart would say "ok thanks, bye..we have plenty of cheap chinese junk that looks about the same as yours.." Rubbermaid had to have Walmart to survive..because Walmart is where Americans buy everything..
Rubbermaid needs Walmart..Walmart doesnt need Rubbermaid.
Walmart calls the shots..

For many companys, they have two options:

1. Keep production in the USA..and go out of business. everyone loses..employees, management, and stockholders.

2. Move production to China..the company can still exist. The American employees get screwed..but US management and office staff still have jobs, and stockholders can still make money. That at least keeps *some* money in the USA..better than option one? perhaps..unless you are an employee, in which case option 1 or 2 is the same..

Everytime you shop at Walmart, you are helping this process along..

Scot


----------



## micah68kj

The gub'mint has a lot to do with regulating businesses right *out* of business. This is also one of the reasons companies move to China. You think China has all these regulations in place?? That's why half of China walks around wearing masks. We seem to be playing right into a full blown nanny state with cradle to grave govt. benevolence but, somebody has to be putting $$ into the govt purse. Nobody is working any more to do that. We just keep kicking that can a little further down the road and everybody keeps buying that danged chinese crap and going on and on about how great their $99.00 Predator engine runs and life is just peachy. Pardon my sarcasm but I do tend to ramble on this subject.


----------



## airshot

Just a note to the made in china snow blowers. Just bought an Ariens 24"
compact with a brigs 208 motor, is marked and was told it is an American engine, also states in the manual. The sno-tek version of Ariens snow blowers are made in china with china engines. Some parts of the sno-tek are same as used on the Ariens mach, supossedly those interchangeable parts are made in USA. I did do a side by side comparison to the Ariens and the sno-tek machines and there are differences!! Especially in metal thickness and the obvious motor difference. But according to the manual, the salesman, and the website the 24" compact is American made and manufactured.

Airshot


----------



## sscotsman

airshot said:


> Just a note to the made in china snow blowers. Just bought an Ariens 24"
> compact with a brigs 208 motor, is marked and was told it is an American engine, also states in the manual. The sno-tek version of Ariens snow blowers are made in china with china engines. Some parts of the sno-tek are same as used on the Ariens mach, supossedly those interchangeable parts are made in USA. I did do a side by side comparison to the Ariens and the sno-tek machines and there are differences!! Especially in metal thickness and the obvious motor difference. But according to the manual, the salesman, and the website the 24" compact is American made and manufactured.


That is not correct..
All Ariens snowblowers are made in the USA, including the Sno-Tek units.
All 2-stage snowblower *engines*, on snowblowers made by all snowblower manufacturers (except Honda) are now made in China.
at all levels, even the Pro models.

Scot


----------



## JRHAWK9

airshot said:


> I did do a side by side comparison to the Ariens and the sno-tek machines and there are differences!! Especially in metal thickness and the obvious motor difference.
> 
> Airshot


You're seeing a difference because they are different models. The Sno-Tek line is Ariens entry level line, so there will be those differences you're seeing in order to keep the prices down compared to the other lines.


----------



## sscotsman

airshot said:


> Just bought an Ariens 24"
> compact with a brigs 208 motor, is marked and was told it is an American engine, also states in the manual.
> 
> Airshot


Im curious what it says in the manual about the engine..
the 208cc Briggs snowblower engine has never been made in America..I doubt it would say in the manual that it was..
can you elaborate?
thanks,
Scot


----------



## JRHAWK9

Scot, I believe this 208cc engine is Ariens AX208. I think it's the same one found in my Path-Pro. I know mine is not a Briggs, it's an LCT. Or are they two completely different motors?

http://www.ariens.com/en-us/SeriesDownloads/Ariens%20AX%20Engine.pdf

I just looked on Ariens site, the Compact 22 gets the AX208 while the Compact 24 gets the Briggs. This years Sno-Tek 24 gets the LCT 208cc one, which should be the same as the one found in my Path-Pro.


----------



## sscotsman

There is both a Briggs and an Ariens/LCT 208cc engine..
"airshot" specifically said he has the Briggs..

I believe that the "AX208" is a new name for the Ariens/LCT engine..
same engine, new name.

Scot


----------



## JRHAWK9

sscotsman said:


> There is both a Briggs and an Ariens/LCT 208cc engine..
> "airshot" specifically said he has the Briggs..
> 
> I believe that the "AX208" is a new name for the Ariens/LCT engine..
> same engine, new name.
> 
> Scot


Yeah, but according to Arien's site, the Sno-Tek 24 only comes with the LCT 208cc. Unless he has a previous years where they may have offered the Briggs 208cc.

Sno-Tekâ„¢ 24 - Snowblowers - Ariens Sno-Tek

yep....same engine.


----------



## sscotsman

He didnt say he has the Sno-Tek..He said he has the Compact 24. 
the 2014 Compact 24 has the Briggs 208cc engine on it.

Scot


----------



## JRHAWK9

sscotsman said:


> He didnt say he has the Sno-Tek..He said he has the Compact 24.
> the 2014 Compact 24 has the Briggs 208cc engine on it.
> 
> Scot


d*mn, I'm either going blind or making sh*t up as I read.........  LOL

I knew the Compact 24 gets the Briggs........some reason thought I read Sno-Tek. Which is why I was confused. Sorry, my bad.


----------



## sscotsman

that's ok!  no biggie..
he did mention Sno-Tek too, so it wasnt perhaps totally obvious..

Scot


----------



## MilestoneMowers

Bain said:


> Hyundai is Korean
> 
> Anyways, with the rise of the middle class in china and the increase in exchange value of the Chinese Yuan(dollar). Soon(5-10 years) those overseas jobs will be moving somewhere else .


Made in Africa (Ethopia, Kenya, etc.) the next frontier.


----------



## nt40lanman

I throw a lot of blame on the American consumer. We demand crazy low prices and high wages, and have created a "throw away" mentality. It's our own fault.


----------



## nt40lanman

As a detour:

Obviously myself and a number of others want the old American stuff. I LOVE my 10hp flathead TEC. the only thing I would like more is an 11 or 12hp.

Anyone have an "old" Chinese engine? How old? 

How many have had one fail?

Has nobody had to pull a Chinese carb apart and clean it out?

Is OHV really THAT much better? How so?

Crank bearings vs bushings: Never seen a bushing fail so why are bearings important?


----------



## nt40lanman

I was hoping someone would chime in on my questions. I really would like to hear more. Someone posted performance upgrades in another thread that were very interesting.


----------



## GustoGuy

nt40lanman said:


> As a detour:
> 
> Obviously myself and a number of others want the old American stuff. I LOVE my 10hp flathead TEC. the only thing I would like more is an 11 or 12hp.
> 
> Anyone have an "old" Chinese engine? How old?
> 
> How many have had one fail?
> 
> Has nobody had to pull a Chinese carb apart and clean it out?
> 
> Is OHV really THAT much better? How so?
> 
> Crank bearings vs bushings: Never seen a bushing fail so why are bearings important?


The Chinese manufactures started making engines about 2001 or so and most of them were not all that good at first. After a while they started to improve their products and I believe HF Predators are on their 4 revision now and they have Hemi style heads now with bigger stainless steel valves for better breathing. They also copied the Honda GX OHV engines down to the last bolt and Honda sued them. Remember the Lifan Grey Hound engines

Most of the Chinese engines being made today seem to be holding up well. The engines I have HF Predator 212cc all have cast iron cylinder liners and dual ball bearing supports on the crank shaft just like the Honda GX engines. Honda came out with the GX 240 back in 1986 and they used their years of expertise on making motorcycle engines in designing a high quality small general use engine. While Briggs an Tecumseh kept building the same old valve in block flat head engine design for years. 

I have not yet cleaned my carburetors. I did pull the float needle once in the mini bikes engine and I cleaned out the seat area with carburetor cleaner and adjusted the float and put it back together again.

OHV engines with the valves located directly over the combustion chamber allow for much better air flow through them and manufactures found they could make more horsepower with smaller displacement then the old flat head engines could. Also these engines were mechanically bench flow tested were the designs were looked at for volumetric efficiency especially at higher rpms then what relatively low rpm low horsepower flat heads could do. Today engine testing is done primarily with CAD which show the OHV engines breath much better than the old L head design which the exhaust and intake gases has to make a sharp 90 degree bend especially with increasing rpms. Also the spark plug can be located nearer to the center of the piston making the OHV engine more responsive to increased compression ratios in developing more horsepower. Back in the early 1940's to late 1940's pretty much all automobile manufactures abandon the old valve in block flat head designed engines for automobiles and went with OHV engines and eventually much later to OHC engines on some new high performance engines since OHC engines seem to allow for even more rpm's then push rod OHV engines could deliver. Basically they are more advanced then the old flat head engines and they also have more parts and cost more to make then the old flat head engines. Briggs and Tecumseh made lots of money because they could build the low tech L head engines cheaply since they could cast the block with the valve chambers in place and make a simple non complicated flat head engine much cheaper than the more complex OHV design. Honda came out with a better designed engine that breathed better and the Honda GX 196cc engines with hopping up have been shown to put out up to 14hp out of just 196cc of displacement. Emission reason too did in the old flat head engines since the engines were not as efficient in breathing and thus would allow more unburned hydrocarbons into the air then would a good designed OHV engine. Remember back in the 1960's when Chrysler came out with the "Hemi" Head engines? You can not design a good designed dome shaped combustion chamber on the old flat heads engines since the valves were to the side of the piston and they would knock on poor gas if you increased the compression ratio too much. The newest revision of the HF Predator 212cc has a hemi style head now and this will allow better breathing and higher compression then will a wedge shaped combustion chamber would. Drove a flat head Ford lately?


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## micah68kj

Yeh. Those engines are the greatest thing since sliced white bread.
W A I T...


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## nt40lanman

Ok, I'll buy some of that. The new design is more efficient and upgradeable. Although, from a quick search, it appears the ohv motors TEC put out were more potent, hp/cc.


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## GustoGuy

nt40lanman said:


> Ok, I'll buy some of that. The new design is more efficient and upgradeable. Although, from a quick search, it appears the ohv motors TEC put out were more potent, hp/cc.


*The typical Tecumseh OHV used in many snowblowers was the 195cc *OH195SA-72554* OHV 4 stroke Tecumseh Snow King engine which put out 5.5 hp which is typical of OHV engines in the size range. *Right now parts availiability is realatively poor with Tecumseh OHV engines so it may be difficult to find parts for the engines if you need to. Donyboy73 said they are obselete because you can't get parts for them. I just feel Tecumseh came too late to the party with OHV designed engines and Honda and the Chinese engines had already eaten up a large share of their market. Right now Tecumseh only makes compressors.


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## sscotsman

Updated list..some new Chinese brand names have come to light..
List as of January 2014:

Snowblower bodies still made in the USA:
All Ariens.
All Briggs, Snapper, Simplicity, Brute, Murray.
Probably all Husquvarna/Poulan.

Most MTD's still made in the USA, although perhaps not all.. I believe MTD might be importing some 100% Chinese models for their really low end..Or brands like Craftsman is importing them, not MTD..its hard to know for sure what it going on..its best IMO to just avoid MTD names all together. (MTD, Cub Cadet, Troy-Bilt, Yard-machines, Yardman, most Craftsman) 

Toro moved production to Mexico this year, so they are now off the list too.
Toro now has (as of 2014 model year) snowblower bodies made in Mexico, with engines made in China. No Toro 2-stage snowblowers are made in the USA anymore.

Here are the known brand names that are 100% made in China..these machines should be avoided at all costs:

Stanley 
World Lawn
Snow Beast
Huskee
Powerland
Snow Joe 
powRcraft
Echelon

There are probably more..
And its likely some Craftsman snowblowers are now 100% made in China, although its hard to know which ones..(some, but not all, will say "Made in China" on the data tag) and I wouldnt be surprised if some lower-end MTD names, like yard-machines, now also have some 100% chinese machines in the lineup..

Scot


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## JRHAWK9

sscotsman said:


> Toro moved production to Mexico this year, so they are now off the list too.
> Toro now has (as of 2014 model year) snowblower bodies made in Mexico, with engines made in China. No Toros 2-stage snowblowers are made in the USA anymore.


wow, that's a shame.


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## Wayne361

I bought my Toro 726 in dec 12. According to info here the Briggs were made in China starting in 2013. Is there a way of determining whether I might have dodged a bullet so-to-speak and got one of the last American made engines for the model? Is there a serial # on engine or any indication to answer my question? 

Thanks in advance,
Wayne


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## sj701

Guess I won't be upgrading any of my equipment any time soon with any new stuff.


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## sscotsman

Updated list!
the Chinese brand names are getting so numerous, I have now put them in alphabetical order! Below is copied and pasted from previous posts, with updated names:

Updated list..some new 100% Chinese brand names have come to light..
List as of February 2014:

Snowblower bodies still made in the USA (everything except the engine): 
All Ariens and Ariens Sno-Tek.
All Briggs & Stratton, Snapper, Simplicity, Brute, Murray.
Probably all Husquvarna/Poulan.

Most MTD's still made in the USA, although perhaps not all.. I believe MTD might be importing some 100% Chinese models for their really low end..Or brands like Craftsman is importing them, not MTD..its hard to know for sure what it going on..its best IMO to just avoid MTD names all together. (MTD, Cub Cadet, Troy-Bilt, Yard-machines, Yardman, most Craftsman) 

Toro moved production to Mexico this year, so they are now off the list too.
Toro now has (as of 2014 model year) snowblower bodies made in Mexico, with engines made in China. No Toro 2-stage snowblowers are made in the USA anymore. (all snowblower _engines_, on all brands, are now made in China.)

Here are the known brand names that are 100% made in China..these machines should be avoided at all costs!

Echelon
Huskee
Mansfield
Powerland
powRcraft
Snow Beast
Snow Joe
Stanley
World Lawn

There are probably more..
never never never buy one of these! Here is some reading about the quality you can expect if you do:

http://www.snowblowerforum.com/foru...6058-new-stanley-36-commerical-two-stage.html

http://www.snowblowerforum.com/foru...orum/7586-36-inch-stanley-already-broken.html


Scot


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## Sid

The people who are buying houses [macmansions] and smaller versions, around here [Long Island] don't own a shovel, or a lawnmower. They will never know how tune up a small engine, let alone overhaul one. Home and yard care is a cottage industry now. But if it weren't for these helpless souls, there would not be work for folks like those of us on these blogs, and forums. Yeah they make a lot of money, but they spend a lot of it on child care and all the trades that they can't or won't do themselves, and they shop for bargains, not made in the USA.
Sid


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## micah68kj

Sid said:


> The people who are buying houses [macmansions] and smaller versions, around here [Long Island] don't own a shovel, or a lawnmower. They will never know how tune up a small engine, let alone overhaul one. Home and yard care is a cottage industry now. But if it weren't for these helpless souls, there would not be work for folks like those of us on these blogs, and forums. Yeah they make a lot of money, but they spend a lot of it on child care and all the trades that they can't or won't do themselves, and they shop for bargains, not made in the USA.
> Sid


I've *always said* these people are so busy earning a living they *never* have a life.


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## Vailen

I just read through this thread am I am truly dismayed. I just bought a brand new Ariens snowblower and learned that the engine - the most important part - is made in China, not the USA. After I purchased the snowblower I did leave the store believing I bought an excellent, all-American made snowblower. I had no idea the 420cc B&S engine is now made in China. Well, at least all of the other parts are made in the USA (I hope).

On another topic, Sid's point about our home and yard care becoming a "cottage industry" is accurate. Here's an example: I found out this past Christmas that we could hire a company to hang-up, take down, and store all of our Christmas lights and decorations every year for an annual fee. Since my childhood, I always considered hanging up decorations was a family event and shared with family and friends. Now, that task is being "outsourced" by many people. Can you believe this? Needless to say, I refuse to go that route. I insist upon hanging my own decorations for Christmas, as well as Halloween or any other event. That's part of the overall experience that the younger generation are not appreciating anymore.

My above example is analogous to a child learning how to change the oil in a snowblower or check to see if the carburetor needs replacing - and finding the part at the local hardware store. I participated in these tasks with my father during my childhood. 

Forums like SBF are so enjoyable for me because I can read your stories about your equipment - old and new - and how you overcome the challenges you face with what you have. I used to share those stories with my neighbors very often (and I still do). However, are we the last generation to have such high appreciation for our machines? I sincerely hope not.


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## 94EG8

HCBPH said:


> Pretty sure the last set of Tecumseh points and condensor I bought were labeled Briggs and virtually every Tecumseh carb kit I've bought is labeled Briggs. I thought Briggs bought the rights to at least the replacement parts for the Tecumsehs back around 2009 or so.


That just isn't true. Tecumseh was originally sold off to Platinum Equity and operated under the "Tecumseh Power" name. It was then sold to Certified Parts Corporation and the Peerless transmission end of the business was sold off to Husqvarna (who incidentally bought out AYP) The parts are still made by certified parts corporation, they have nothing, _nothing_ to do with Briggs & Stratton. They are however closely tied to LCT (Liquid Combustion Technology) I dealt with this stuff on a daily basis for a while, as recently as August, trust me when I say no Tecumseh parts are coming in B&S packaging.



seaox said:


> *ARE THE THE NEGATIVE COMMENTS ABOUT CHINESE MANUFACTURED ENGINES CAUSED BY A TRACK RECORD OF POOR QUALITY & MECHANICAL PROBLEMS ???* * OR IS IT THE POLITICAL ISSUE???*


It's a political issue. Those cheap Chinese engines, even the ones like Powermore that aren't really a Honda clone are for the most part much better than the Tecumseh Snow Kings they replaced. They start better, run smoother, quieter, cooler, etc. You hardly ever have to touch the carburetor. The biggest issue I have with them is parts availability and trying to figure out exactly who made the engine you have. The parts are cheap though, you might have to buy a whole head instead of a valve, but it's so cheap the average person wont care.



seaox said:


> FRANKLY WHEN I SHELLING OUT MONEY FOR A TOOL, I WANT THE BEST ENGINEERED PRODUCT AVAILABLE. THANK YOU IN ADVANCE FOR YOUR OPINIONS.


That's the way I always looked at it, I really don't care where it's made, but I want the best product.



nt40lanman said:


> Anyone have an "old" Chinese engine? How old?
> 
> How many have had one fail?
> 
> Has nobody had to pull a Chinese carb apart and clean it out?
> 
> Is OHV really THAT much better? How so?
> 
> Crank bearings vs bushings: Never seen a bushing fail so why are bearings important?


See above, I've seen the odd Chinese engine fail, it doesn't matter what series of engines you have or where they were made, some will fail, whether it be through abuse, negligence, manufacturer defects or assembly errors. Tecumseh Snow Kings though had an abnormally high failure rate, especially the last few years they were made. Beyond the typical tecumseh throw rod problem (granted these are usually from either low oil or a frozen governor linkage causing the engine to over-rev) and typical carb issues, Tecumseh at some point switched to an electric starter gear that was hardened too much (you can identify they pretty easily, they'll have a cobalt blue tint to them) the teeth break off the starter gear where they get stuck to the 3 magnets inside the flywheel for the stator, they they get wedged between the magnet and the stator ripping the mounting boses for the stator out of the block and letting the oil drain out. This didn't happen on a few machines, it happened on a large number of machines. The only thing Tecumseh had that I miss is a good dealer network, if the Chinese can figure that out you'll never stop them.


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## [email protected]

No change for this update...but here are Honda's snowblower manufacturing locations:

All *Honda 2-Stage* Snowblowers (HS725, HS928, HS1332, HS1336):
• Engines cast and assembled at Honda Plant in Thailand
• Snowblower frames and final assembly at Honda Plant in Japan

All* Honda Single-Stage* Snowblowers (HS520, HS720):
• Engines cast and complete frame assembly at Honda Plant in Swepsonville, NC.


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## ih8thepackers

94eg8 thanks for the insite,sounds like you wrench on small engines on a regular basis.


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## Spike60

As a dealer, there's another point to consider. Back when it was all Tecumseh, you could cover just about every blower that found it's way into the shop with a parts inventory that would fit in a shoebox. 3-4 carb kits. needles and seats, bowls and floats. Some gaskets, fuel caps, choke knobs. 1,2,3, and the customer is happy and back in business. 

Now it's much harder to try and support all of these different engines. Even knowing what spark plugs they take is a pain. We are gearing up more and more for the Briggs and LCT's, as they are on the products that we sell. But I'm not stocking parts for all of the MTD engines. And I'm not even clear on what Toro is using at this point. And who knows what's coming next.  Can't wait til a Stanley or Snow Beast shows up. Then it's not just the engine, but the entire unit! 

It's unfortunate, because unlike mowing the lawn, a snowstorm needs to be cleaned up NOW, not next week. But the new reality is that most dealers will not have the level of support for all of these different engines that they once provided for Tecumseh, and customers will have to wait for parts to be ordered.


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## 94EG8

ih8thepackers said:


> 94eg8 thanks for the insite,sounds like you wrench on small engines on a regular basis.


I always did a fair bit of it as a hobby for 15 years or so, but I spent the last couple of years working for a local small engine shop as a tech and driver. We dealt primarily in AYP/Husqvarna and MTD lawn tractors and snowblowers, but we saw a bit of all the other stuff as well including the odd Honda and Yamaha snowblower.


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## micah68kj

*Well, I DO care where my tools are made. I'm willing to pay more too, for U.S. manufactured tools. You can call me whatever you want but I'm going to buy American whenever I can. Just remember this when your company or whatever decides to move overseas. ...* I happen to care about my country and my fellow citizen's welfare. Feel free to disagree.


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## Kiss4aFrog

It's just sad that the stuff coming from there seems to be cheap and poorly supported if supported at all.

It used to be the cheap Japanese stuff we complained about but they found out you make a good product and you make a better profit !!
Maybe the Chinese will catch on.

My TroyBilt China engine already has parts NLA and surges terribly. That's six years old ??? Waiting for warmer weather to fix that.


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## mikey517

I found this site while researching before upgrading my 20 year old Toro7/24. Still runs great, but I really want something able to take on deep snow head on. 
I was partial to the Ariens Deluxe 28, but I'm not against another Toro. I thought both machines are USA made. 

Now I find - thanks to some great information compiled here - that Ariens is USA made except for the Chinese engine, and the Toro's are made in Mexico w/ Chinese engines.

Is there any difference between the Ariens branded engines, or the Briggs branded engines that Ariens puts on these units?

It's getting harder and harder to spend money on ANYTHING made in USA!


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## ken53

micah68kj said:


> *Well, I DO care where my tools are made. I'm willing to pay more too, for U.S. manufactured tools. You can call me whatever you want but I'm going to buy American whenever I can. Just remember this when your company or whatever decides to move overseas. ...* I happen to care about my country and my fellow citizen's welfare. Feel free to disagree.


I agree with you. I worked and participated under a Union contract most of my working days. Our company's machinery dominated the world for its market. I watched our mismanaged large company dwindle away, as CEO after CEO slowly destroyed the company while compensating themselves with appalling amounts of money. I know this from bargaining contracts. Never once would the company disclose the businesse's profits. Finally it sold to a foreign buyer and went over seas. Not because the market didn't want our product but because it was horribly mismanaged. I watched this progress downward over 26 years. Now some will say it was the high cost of labor or unions drag down a company. In most cases this is pure disgusting BS.

Here is a very old bit of data. Japan CEO's made 15 times what there workers made. At this same time USA CEO's made 60 times the amount that there workers made. I am sure new data would be even more appalling.

Now back to snow blowers.They can be made here along with engines. But when income is running totally unchecked in the top 2%, and most USA CEOs are clearly unqualified to run companies, we will lose more then small engines and snow blowers. These are minor to what is yet to come. 

So yes, I couldn't agree with you more. My hat is off to you, and you should be proud of your attitude, hang in there, but sadly to say, I think we may have already lost. 


Edit:
Whew... I am tired after that rant. Canada is looking good to me right at this moment. 

Ken


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## docfletcher

It breaks my heart, that which has become of us these long years. Brothers all are we, long have we dwelt on that which has befallen us. Older now our spirit remains strong.

"United Auto Workers Member At Large"


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## ken53

docfletcher said:


> It breaks my heart, that which has become of us these long years. Brothers all are we, long have we dwelt on that which has befallen us. Older now our spirit remains strong.
> 
> "United Auto Workers Member At Large"


Heart breaking is the word that comes to mind. But really there is no word in the dictionary that can describe what is happening to the USA citizen. Not to mention of what is yet to come.

Those of us old enough to remember USA pride of workmanship and real input of how quality was built in will soon die off and the next generation will have to fight once again to rebuild USA pride.

United Steal Workers


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## mikey517

Well, I'm old enough to carry a medicare card, and old enough to remember the factory my Mom & Dad worked in making slippers for Sears & Monkey Ward... Now, they're made in VietMexiChippines.

I guess the best way to go is an Ariens - most USA of all, and actually good reviews of their Ariens AX branded engine. ****, at my age, if it lasts 20yrs. like my Toro....


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## ken53

mikey517 said:


> Well, I'm old enough to carry a medicare card, and old enough to remember the factory my Mom & Dad worked in making slippers for Sears & Monkey Ward... Now, they're made in VietMexiChippines.
> 
> I guess the best way to go is an Ariens - most USA of all, and actually good reviews of their Ariens AX branded engine. ****, at my age, if it lasts 20yrs. like my Toro....


Ariens or Toro can be a toss up. I live only 30 minutes from the Ariens factory. Its weird that I never had the need to go there, but we hear much of the gossip coming out of Brillion WI. We hear all good things from that family run company. They donate to the local schools, we hear no bad stories of disgruntled workers, and they many times correct issues out side of the warranty period.

There quality is not what it was 20years ago but its on par with any blower on the market to day. Their powder coat orange paint is unbelievably tough. Its funny here in Wisconsin as you drive around in the winter, there are orange blowers every where you look.
I could buy a Toro in a heart beat because they are good too, but so far Ariens earned my respect over the last 23 years. 

Ariens claims to have worked closely with LCT engines in China. Dual ball bearing crank and cast sleeved block. My 414cc Ariens runs smoother then any small engine I have to date. Also Ariens claims to service the whole blower including the engine, all as one unit. I haven't tested this one warranty thing yet, but it sounds good.

I wouldn't be surprised Ariens would get an offer some day from a Chinese company that they couldn't refuse. It is just a matter of time, but so far we have not heard anything leading to that.

Just rambling on, I better quit before I put someone to sleep. 

Ken


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## Kiss4aFrog

Most people don't know or care until it's too late. You buy a Toro or a Troybilt on the reputation it earned years ago when it was an American built machine made by Americans with American parts. The name is the same but the quality has changed.

Worst one is a guy who recently bought a new "yellow" snow blower. It looked nice, it worked good but something broke and he can't even find the name of the brand anywhere on it and the hardware store he bought it from ends their customer service with the sale. He posted and so far last I checked he can't find a place to get parts. It's all China and it's a pain. 

They could make a great Ariens or Honda knock off. Heavy metal, quality engine, solid remote chute controls, LED lights and hand warmers and charge good money and make a good profit but so far all they seem to pump out are cheaply made snow blowers with shiny paint and little to no support.


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## micah68kj

Kiss4aFrog said:


> Most people don't know or care until it's too late.
> 
> Worst one is a guy who recently bought a new "yellow" snow blower. It looked nice, it worked good but something broke and he can't even find the name of the brand anywhere on it and the hardware store he bought it from ends their customer service with the sale.
> 
> They could make a great Ariens or Honda knock off. Heavy metal, quality engine, solid remote chute controls, LED lights and hand warmers and charge good money and make a good profit but so far all they seem to pump out are cheaply made snow blowers with shiny paint and little to no support.


*why would they even bother to manufacture a good quality knockoff when they can make the trash they're making now, and selling them for big bucks because the younger generation wouldn't know quality if it bit them? * As long as John Q. Public keeps buying them they'll keep pumping them out. They'll get another sale in 5 more years.


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## micah68kj

Thank you for the kind words, Ken. I'm NOT ashamed to say that I love my country and I HATE the direction it's headed. All the jobs are leaving. Nothing for our young people to do. I don't have any children and I'm very grateful now, that I don't.

I'll not post any more on this thread about this topic.


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## db9938

Well for what it's worth, here's a list of companies that have either left my town, or the county that I reside:

ABX, sold to DHL then closed. There was a 60 minutes special on this.

Irwin Auger Bit, sold to Newell/Rubbermaid then left the country. Quite a few received their last paychecks, training their Chinese counterparts.

Milacron closed one of their factories, just to lay dormant until 7 years ago when TimberTech took possession of the building.

Mac Tool, remember the tools stamped Sabina, O.? Now get this, the building has been turned into an indoor stock yard, to fly out stock to other countries using the former ABX/DHL strip.


When it comes to outsourcing, I've seen it second hand, through a lot of my neighbors. I do my best to make sure that they stay employed, but there are times where a second hand deal, is to hard to pass up. Not to appear as though I am trying to justify what I own in my snow fleet, but when a deal comes up, well sometimes I just can't pass it up.

I paid $330 for my Honda at an auction, and $100 for my Yami off of CL.


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## sj701

I hate seeing the way management can bring a good company down the tubes. 

I used to work at Tecumseh in New Holstein in the 1999-2000 timeframe and I saw what direction the upper management team was steering the company. I also witnessed the attitude upper management had toward the looming EPA emissions and the Chinese engines that were just starting to come to market in the USA. The death nail was when they lost the Sears contract to Briggs and the company couldn't recover after that and that is when I left. By this time Briggs was already buying Chinese built shortblocks and then bolting on whatever color sheetmetal here in the USA so they could slap on an assembled in USA sticker even though 90% of the work was done in China.

So I hope this explains my signature alittle bit.


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## GustoGuy

sj701 said:


> I hate seeing the way management can bring a good company down the tubes.
> 
> I used to work at Tecumseh in New Holstein in the 1999-2000 timeframe and I saw what direction the upper management team was steering the company. I also witnessed the attitude upper management had toward the looming EPA emissions and the Chinese engines that were just starting to come to market in the USA. The death nail was when they lost the Sears contract to Briggs and the company couldn't recover after that and that is when I left. By this time Briggs was already buying Chinese built shortblocks and then bolting on whatever color sheetmetal here in the USA so they could slap on an assembled in USA sticker even though 90% of the work was done in China.
> 
> So I hope this explains my signature alittle bit.


Yes, It was upper level managment trying to save a buck or two. *Tecumseh' management certainly knew that their engines were infamous for blowing connecting rods and that their carburetor design sucked yet they chose to do nothing about it because at the time it was just them and Briggs and Stratton which had a virtual monopoly here in the USA until Honda came out with their revolutionary comercial grade small OHV engine and started to chip away at their market share. It was cheaper to continue to build simple 70 year old L head engines then to design more complicated OHV engines like Honda was doing. The L heads are low efficiency low power design and having the valves in the block off to the side of the piston meant that they would unfortunately retain more unburned hydrocarbons in the combustion chamber than the more efficent well designed OHV and OHC engines.
*Honda took a page learned from its expertise in designing motorcyle engines and used this to design a better small general purpose engine. While Tecumseh kept making the same old stuff for 40 years or so before before they even tried to get back into it with their own OHV small engines. By then it was too late to save them selves.* Complacency killed Tecumseh. 
*


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## sj701

GustoGuy said:


> * Complacency killed Tecumseh. *


 That was a big part of it. There was other stuff that I won't write about in a public forum.


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## Kiss4aFrog

You could always change the names to protect the innocent (until proven guilty).


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## kbsnow

I don't drink Jim Beam any more....sold to a Japanese firm.


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## Big Ed

It is a shame, what has happened here in America!( home of the brave & free?)
I am not going to get all wound up now so I will leave it there. 

I thought this might interest some if you didn't see this the other day, I am surprised that our fearless leader  did not put a stop to this.

A copy and paste,
Here's a Stars and Stripes shocker: Prior to Friday, flags bought by the Department of Defense weren't necessarily 100% American-made.

But going forward, flags purchased by the military must be wholly sourced from the U.S. — and not have any elements from overseas, according to a Department of Defense purchasing rules amendment that went into effect Friday.

While the Department of Defense's major flag vendors are American companies, the flag material — such as ink and fabric — could have come from foreign markets prior to the change.

"Our men (and) women in uniform should serve under American-made flags," Rep. Mike Thompson, D-Calif., said on his Facebook page last week. He proposed the legislation requiring the flags to be 100% American-made.

In that post, he also gave a nod to flag company North Bay Industries in Rohnert Park, Calif., which produces flags that are wholly American-made. "Our tax dollars should be spent on American-made flags like those at NBI," he said.

The Department of Defense purchases American flags for purposes such as flying them over the Pentagon, military bases and ships, as well as to use as burial flags for military personnel killed in action.

At press time, the Department of Defense didn't have an estimate on how many flags it purchases each year. But Robert Hutt, CEO at North Bay, told The Press Democrat that the Department of Defense buys about 1,000 to 2,000 annually.

The new rule doesn't apply to other components related to flying or displaying flags, such as flagpoles or accessories.

After Thompson posted news of the regulation on his Facebook page, it spurred much debate among users on that site. Some applauded the rule, saying that all American flags should be completely produced in the U.S. Others said flag production should be done by the most cost-effective source, even if that meant going outside of the U.S.

A similar bill requiring all government-purchased flags be made in the U.S. has repeatedly failed, CBS News reported, noting that it's often less expensive to buy American flags made in China.

The new military requirements extends the existing Berry Amendment to flags, reported CBS News. That amendment, which passed in 1941, bans the Department of Defense from buying food, clothing, military uniforms, fabrics, stainless steel and hand or measuring tools that are not grown or produced in the U.S., except in rare special circumstances.



It is a shame what this country has become compared of the industrial giant we used to be, but what is worse yet is what we will become in the future! 

If things don't change!

That is all on this subject from Ed.


----------



## 94EG8

GustoGuy said:


> Yes, It was upper level managment trying to save a buck or two. *Tecumseh' management certainly knew that their engines were infamous for blowing connecting rods and that their carburetor design sucked yet they chose to do nothing about it because at the time it was just them and Briggs and Stratton which had a virtual monopoly here in the USA until Honda came out with their revolutionary comercial grade small OHV engine and started to chip away at their market share. It was cheaper to continue to build simple 70 year old L head engines then to design more complicated OHV engines like Honda was doing. The L heads are low efficiency low power design and having the valves in the block off to the side of the piston meant that they would unfortunately retain more unburned hydrocarbons in the combustion chamber than the more efficent well designed OHV and OHC engines.*


*

*In all fairness to Tecumseh Honda started building snowblowers in the early '80s and didn't really get rolling until the HS55 came out in '84. Tecumseh came out with their own OHV snow king engine in the late '80s ('88 I think was the first year) The early engines were notorious for kicking back when attempting to start, a lot of guys broke their wrists, but they were otherwise pretty decent engines. They never had much market share though, for every 10 flat heads Tecumseh sold, the might have sold one OHV model.


GustoGuy said:


> Honda took a page learned from its expertise in designing motorcyle engines and used this to design a better small general purpose engine. While Tecumseh kept making the same old stuff for 40 years or so before before they even tried to get back into it with their own OHV small engines. By then it was too late to save them selves.* Complacency killed Tecumseh.
> *


I think what ultimately killed Tecumseh was building that factory in Brazil. A lot of things went wrong for Tecumseh at a time when they couldn't afford to take a loss. They did have other issues, like not being able to make a lawn tractor engine to save their life, that bad run of 110v electric starters with blue gears, lawn mower engines that used an exposed paper element that loved to let water into the carb, and the as mentioned trouble meeting emissions standards. Now all that said Honda had historically been an engineer driven company, and it shows. The GX engines were quiet, efficient, and easy to start even way back.


----------



## ken53

Big Ed said:


> It is a shame what this country has become compared of the industrial giant we used to be, but what is worse yet is what we will become in the future!
> 
> If things don't change!
> 
> That is all on this subject from Ed.


Nice post Ed
You are correct, we have seen nothing yet... the worst is yet to come. Generations to come will likely see a two class society much like some third world countries.

Ken


----------



## detdrbuzzard

ken53 said:


> Nice post Ed
> You are correct, we have seen nothing yet... the worst is yet to come. Generations to come will likely see a two class society much like some third world countries.
> 
> Ken


 *WELCOME TO THE NEW THIRD WORLD NATION !!* my brother laugh when i said that to hm about 15 years ago


----------



## GustoGuy

94EG8 said:


> [/B]In all fairness to Tecumseh Honda started building snowblowers in the early '80s and didn't really get rolling until the HS55 came out in '84. Tecumseh came out with their own OHV snow king engine in the late '80s ('88 I think was the first year) The early engines were notorious for kicking back when attempting to start, a lot of guys broke their wrists, but they were otherwise pretty decent engines. They never had much market share though, for every 10 flat heads Tecumseh sold, the might have sold one OHV model.
> 
> 
> I think what ultimately killed Tecumseh was building that factory in Brazil. A lot of things went wrong for Tecumseh at a time when they couldn't afford to take a loss. They did have other issues, like not being able to make a lawn tractor engine to save their life, that bad run of 110v electric starters with blue gears, lawn mower engines that used an exposed paper element that loved to let water into the carb, and the as mentioned trouble meeting emissions standards. Now all that said Honda had historically been an engineer driven company, and it shows. The GX engines were quiet, efficient, and easy to start even way back.


The reason Tecumseh sold 10 flat heads for every one OHV is they priced them much higher than the Old L heads and they kicked back and news got out that it broke some wrists. *Failure to design an effective compression release mechanism too was on their list of* *failures.* Here is Tecumseh complacent answer to why people were having kickback issues with their 1 to 2 year old Tecumseh OHV engines.

According to the Breakdown for this Engine, the Compression Release is a Part of the Cam and May be Worn to the Point it Cannot Open the Valve Slightly as it was Designed.​ ​ ​ *Here is a small engine mechanic with another answer: *​ With piston @ TDC compression, and you're sure you have valves set
at .002 intake, and .004 exhaust....the "too much compression symptom", 
which also can cause a kickback with this model of engine....sure sounds
like a mechanical compression release problem. This means...*replacing*
*the camshaft*. Also make sure the kicking back hasn't sheared the
flywheel key. With valve cover removed...when piston nears TDC compression, 
you should be able to see the exhaust valve move slightly. This is the MCR doing
its job. If you cannot see this slight lift....chances are you're gonna need a new
camshaft. If you've not (or never) replaced the lock nuts and pal nuts, rockers, etc,
Tecumseh offered a rocker arm kit which includes all this stuff to service this 
style rocker arm set-up. Part # 730221A. May not be available any longer. Brand T 
stopped building that style OHV *in 1991*. Have worked on a blue million of those
over the years. Many schools conducted on them. ​ I bet People with the red palm of pain and rope burns sure liked that answer. Tecumseh said we can fix it for you but how long it will last is anybodys guess rather than redesigning the compression release they seen it as a sales pitch to their customers to use existing parts to fix something that should not have broken that quickly or in that many numbers. Honda engines never seemed to have problems at all with their compression release mechanism. ​ Honda here I come. Or hello Briggs and Stratton. Or lets get a Tecumseh flathead at least it doesn't try to rip the pull chord out of my hand. ​


----------



## db9938

My two cents on this, is that as nation we have lost our motivation to be productive. One could argue that the war on poverty has eliminated the need for productivity, in lieu of political promises and compromise. 

You say that in a couple of generations that we will see a two class society, well that generation is currently in school and it is scary to say that they have acquired this knowledge, priorities, sense of responsibility and ambition from the generation before them. So, what you fear, has already existed for quite some time.


----------



## scipper77

I like to say that we have legislated Darwin out of society. Plain and simple.


----------



## GustoGuy

db9938 said:


> My two cents on this, is that as nation we have lost our motivation to be productive. One could argue that the war on poverty has eliminated the need for productivity, in lieu of political promises and compromise.
> 
> You say that in a couple of generations that we will see a two class society, well that generation is currently in school and it is scary to say that they have acquired this knowledge, priorities, sense of responsibility and ambition from the generation before them. So, what you fear, has already existed for quite some time.


I do not blame the Tucumseh workers for the engineering design failure of the engines they built. Tecumseh was complacent. They with Briggs and Stratton had a virtual monopoly and managment kept making the same old products for years and years. Some 8 to 10hp flathead broke connecting rods. Rather than using this as a learning expirience by having their engineering department strengthening or redesigning the connecting rods so they had more tolerance to overev they said you over reved your engine or disable the govenor or ran it low on oil so your to blame and not us. Honda engines were not prone to blowing rods even when owner removed or bypassed the governors. Even the worst of the worst HF Predator 212cc goes into valve float at about 5000 rpms as discovered by torture tests conducted by aftermarket parts companies and cart racing bussineses. Tecumseh many problems were mostly self inflicted and they were aready on the ropes before the Chinese engine manufacturers came around.


----------



## db9938

Plain and simple, they failed to innovate and relied upon cost cutting measures to overcome increasing cost of doing business. But Tecumseh is far from the first to fall victim to this, and sadly will probably not be the last.


----------



## mikey517

I joined this form about a week ago while searching for repair information about my Toro 7/24 from 1995. After getting all this great information, I've fallen back in "love" with my old dependable. I also was able to diagnose and repair what turned out to be a simple fix!

Can I assume that the 7 hp Tecumseh HSK70 motor I have was made in the USA?


----------



## sscotsman

mikey517 said:


> Can I assume that the 7 hp Tecumseh HSK70 motor I have was made in the USA?


yes, you can..*all* Tecumseh snowblower engines were made in the USA.

Apparently the Tecumseh "name" has been sold to a company that is now importing engines from China..and the "Snow King" label has re-apperared on some recent Chinese engines..(Snow-King was a Tecumseh moniker) but the actual name "Tecumseh" is not on those engines, and they dont seem to have any actual relation to the US Tecumseh engine technology..they are all new Chinese designs.

So if it actually says "Tecumseh" on it, it was made in the USA..

Scot


----------



## ken53

mikey517 said:


> I joined this form about a week ago while searching for repair information about my Toro 7/24 from 1995. After getting all this great information, I've fallen back in "love" with my old dependable. I also was able to diagnose and repair what turned out to be a simple fix!
> 
> Can I assume that the 7 hp Tecumseh HSK70 motor I have was made in the USA?


I attached a Tecumseh manual that I just found online. It is a .pdf file document. I don't know how the forum format will handle it for your viewing. 

Edit: 
The file exceeded the forum limit. I am sorry. It is a locked PDF file and won't let me down size it.

*Edit:* 
*This is a link to the Tecumseh Manual .pdf file. You might want to download it ASP, before the site blocks it.*

http://th.manualwebsite.com/pdf/quick_reference_service_information.pdf


Ken


----------



## sscotsman

I have a .pdf copy of the:



> *Tecumseh Technician's Handbook
> 3 To 11 Hp 4-cycle L-head Engines
> *This manual covers engine models: ECV100 - 120, H22 - 80, HH40 - 70, HHM80, HM70 - 100, HMSK70 - 110, HMXL70, HS40 - 50, HSK30, - 70, HSSK40 - 50, HT30 - 35, HXL35, LAV30 - 50, LEV80 - 120, TNT100 - 120, TVM125 - 220, TVXL170 - 220, TVS75 - 120, TVXL105 - 115, V40 - 80, VH40 - 70, VM70 - 100 Model numbers are located on the engine shroud.


manual..
its big! 123 pages, and 2,500k in file size.
which really isnt too big..most email programs/services should be able to handle that..
email if you would like a copy:
sscotsman at yahoo dot com

Scot


----------



## mikey517

Many thanks, Ken.... 
Just downloaded it. I owe you a beer!

Scot, email sent! let's all drink beer!!


----------



## ken53

sscotsman said:


> I have a .pdf copy of the:
> 
> 
> 
> manual..
> its big! 123 pages, and 2,500k in file size.
> which really isnt too big..most email programs/services should be able to handle that..
> email if you would like a copy:
> sscotsman at yahoo dot com
> 
> Scot


It looks like your manual is twice the pages. Much more complete I am sure. I had just stumbled across this one this morning so I thought I would try to help mikey517 out. Anyhow thanks for jumping in. My old machines are gone for now but I'll keep you in mind too.

Ken


----------



## ken53

mikey517 said:


> Many thanks, Ken....
> Just downloaded it. I owe you a beer!
> 
> Scot, email sent! let's all drink beer!!


You are very Welcome...

It looks like Scot's manual is a better one. Now you have a lot to read. 

Ken


----------



## 94EG8

GustoGuy said:


> The reason Tecumseh sold 10 flat heads for every one OHV is they priced them much higher than the Old L heads and they kicked back and news got out that it broke some wrists. *Failure to design an effective compression release mechanism too was on their list of* *failures.* Here is Tecumseh complacent answer to why people were having kickback issues with their 1 to 2 year old Tecumseh OHV engines.


The problem was the timing was too far advanced. I have a service bulletin for the issue from Tecumseh. The fix was to retard the timing one tooth. It does work, I've done a couple of them, but it's the biggest hack of a fix for something I've ever seen. And of the valve clearance is any more than 0.003 it will still kick back.


----------



## vmaxed

Ariens made a 2014 28" Super Deluxe 921036 with a 342cc american briggs motor that are still available.


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## olde knight

*Easy way to check where made*

I live in Canada and always check Home Depots CANADIAN sight, they show where products are made. US Home Depot does not do this. Check on homedepot.ca for product and once you have model# buy where ever you get best price for a product made where you want. I only buy Canadian or US made products if available. OUT OF A JOB YET? KEEP BUYING FOREIGN.


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## Kiss4aFrog

Welcome to the forum Olde Knight.


----------



## UNDERTAKER

ALOHA to the forms there knight..


----------



## mikey517

olde knight said:


> I live in Canada and always check Home Depots CANADIAN sight, they show where products are made. US Home Depot does not do this. Check on homedepot.ca for product and once you have model# buy where ever you get best price for a product made where you want. I only buy Canadian or US made products if available. OUT OF A JOB YET? KEEP BUYING FOREIGN.


Thanks for that tip Mr. Knight! That's a good thing to know.

And...welcome.


----------



## sscotsman

Updated list!
the Chinese brand names are getting so numerous, I have now put them in alphabetical order! 
Below is copied and pasted from previous posts, with updated names:

Updated list..some new 100% Chinese brand names have come to light..
List as of November 2014:

Snowblower bodies still made in the USA (everything except the engine): 
All Ariens and Ariens Sno-Tek.
All Briggs & Stratton, Snapper, Simplicity, Brute, Murray.
Probably all Husquvarna/Poulan.

Most MTD's still made in the USA, although perhaps not all.. I believe MTD might be importing some 100% Chinese models for their really low end..Or brands like Craftsman is importing them, not MTD..its hard to know for sure what it going on..its best IMO to just avoid MTD names all together. (MTD, Cub Cadet, Troy-Bilt, Yard-machines, Yardman, most Craftsman) 

Toro moved production to Mexico this year, so they are now off the list too.
Toro now has (as of 2014 model year) snowblower bodies made in Mexico, with engines made in China. No Toro 2-stage snowblowers are made in the USA anymore. (all 2-stage snowblower _engines_, on all brands, are now made in China.)

Here are the known brand names that are 100% made in China..these machines should be avoided at all costs! 
never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never 
never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never buy one of these:

Beast (Home Depot)
DEK (Sears)
Echelon
GXi Outdoor Power
Huskee
Jet Moto
Mansfield
Powerland
Power Smart
PowRcraft
Pow'R'kraft
Snow Beast (Home Depot)
Snow Joe
Stanley
Sunsay
Tao
Tao Tao
World Lawn

There are probably more..
(many of those brands also make mowers and other products..I wouldnt buy anything made those brands)
never never never buy one of these! Here is some reading about the quality you can expect if you do:

http://www.snowblowerforum.com/foru...6058-new-stanley-36-commerical-two-stage.html

http://www.snowblowerforum.com/foru...orum/7586-36-inch-stanley-already-broken.html


Amazon customer reviews of a powerland model:







Amazon customer reviews of Stanley model..there is ONE 5-star review, from the manufacturer! 
and four 1-star reviews, from actual owners of the machine:
http://tinyurl.com/luf2c24


Scot


----------



## BigBillyBobandhisGoat

i thought some of the toro's had brigs engines, i swear i seen one with a 1650 series on it, that i thought was made in america?


----------



## GustoGuy

BigBillyBobandhisGoat said:


> i thought some of the toro's had brigs engines, i swear i seen one with a 1650 series on it, that i thought was made in america?


At one time Toro's used to use American made Briggs engine right now they are about the least made in America machine since the engines are made in China by Loncin and the snowblower bodies are made in Mexico. Briggs no longer makes any more small engines in the USA they are now manufactured in China. Even the worst of the worst MTD's snowblower bodies are still made here in the USA.


----------



## BigBillyBobandhisGoat

so what about the polar force engines in the ariens? that american or no?


----------



## sscotsman

BigBillyBobandhisGoat said:


> so what about the polar force engines in the ariens? that american or no?


For current models, no.

As of last winter, all 2-stage snowblowers, by all manufacturers (except Honda) have engines made in China.
there are no longer new 2-stage snowblower engines being made in the USA.
You can still find NOS US-made engines out there though.

Scot


----------



## pwm

My new Craftsman 30" 420cc that I received on November 14'th says "Assembled in the USA". It has the Powermore 420cc on it.


----------



## GustoGuy

pwm said:


> My new Craftsman 30" 420cc that I received on November 14'th says "Assembled in the USA". It has the Powermore 420cc on it.


 The snow blowers body is made in the USA. The engine however is made in China


----------



## Kiss4aFrog

Maybe the body panels came from overseas too and were simply bolted together here.


----------



## BigBillyBobandhisGoat

or maybe they made them here in the USA and sent them to china to be bolted together then shipped it back. its a funny world we live in today


----------



## Kiss4aFrog

BigBillyBobandhisGoat said:


> or maybe they made them here in the USA and sent them to china to be bolted together then shipped it back.


That would then be labeled "Assembled in China".


----------



## micah68kj

pwm said:


> My new Craftsman says "Assembled in the USA". .


Assembled in U.S.A. means the parts were put together here. They were manufactured in a foreign country.


----------



## pwm

*"Made in" versus "Assembled in"*

Some clarification regarding the difference between "Made in" and "Assembled in" here: http://nationalstandardparts.com/documents/AssembledvsMadeinUSA.pdf

Here's a summary of what it says: 

*REQUIREMENT FOR “MADE IN USA” CLAIMS*
“A product advertised as Made in USA be must be ‘all or virtually all’ made in the U.S.“
WHAT DOES ‘ALL OR VIRTUALLY ALL” MEAN?
“All or virtually all means that all significant parts and processing that go into the product must be of U.S.
origin. That is, the product should contain no — or negligible — foreign content. The policy goes on to
clarify that a ‘product that is all or virtually all made in the United States will ordinarily be one in which all
significant parts and processing that go into the product are of U.S. origin.”

*REQUIREMENT FOR “ASSEMBLED IN USA” CLAIMS*
“A product that includes foreign components may be called ‘Assembled in USA’ without qualification when
its principal assembly takes place in the U.S. and the assembly is substantial. For the ‘assembly’ claim to be
valid, the product’s last ‘substantial transformation’ also should have occurred in the U.S.”
Example: A lawn mower, composed of all domestic parts except for the cable sheathing, flywheel, wheel
rims and air filter (15 to 20 percent foreign content) is assembled in the U.S. An “Assembled in USA” claim
is appropriate.
Example: All the major components of a computer, including the motherboard and hard drive, are
imported. The computer’s components then are put together in a simple “screwdriver” operation in the
U.S., are not substantially transformed under the Customs Standard, and must be marked with a foreign
country of origin. An “Assembled in U.S.” claim without further qualification is deceptive.


----------



## Kiss4aFrog

Maybe this will clear up the confusion:
_*
Made in China*_ or *Product of China* (simplified Chinese: 中国制造; traditional Chinese: 中國製造; pinyin: _zhōngguó zhìzào_, sometimes *Made in P.R.C.*) is a country of origin label affixed to products manufactured in China (excluding Hong Kong, Macau and Taiwan).
_Made in China_ is actually used for the products from Mainland China, governed by the People's Republic of China (PRC). Although the name *China* is used by both the People's Republic of China and the Republic of China (ROC), the label "Made in China" is generally affixed to products made in the former. Products made in the ROC do not use the "Made in China" label. Rather, they usually use "Made in Taiwan", "Made in ROC" or "Made in Taiwan, ROC"[1][2]
A series of highly publicized scandals involving faulty products exported from China in recent years has harmed the "Made in China" brand abroad, as 40% of product recalls in the United States were of imports from China.[4] In response to these concerns, Chinese officials have pledged to increase safety inspections for manufactured products and encouraged the proliferation of watchdog journalism to hold "rogue producers" accountable.[5] Nevertheless, new scandals continue to surface. Despite the recent scandals, most consumers do not "consistently check for the country of origin label", and there is little brand awareness for Chinese products in particular.[4] The "Made in China" brand was historically challenged by the US-led Cold War media campaigns that reported negatively on the brand and publicized hearings on the security of Chinese products in the United States Congress.[6] Conversely, some advertising companies and the American Chamber of Commerce in Shanghai have since the late 1990s endeavored to shed the Made in China brand of its "cheap and junky" image, as the Made in Japan brand had done.[6]
There is criticism in the United States that Chinese manufacturing firms compete unfairly due to the advantages of state support, copyright infringements, and governmental manipulation of the yuan, which propagates the "Made in China" brand at the cost of lost American jobs.[7][8]


----------



## micah68kj

If the product says assembled in China, made in China, made in Paki, made in mehico, made anywhere but U.S. there's a very good chance I'll not buy it. This little tablet probably wasn't made in usa. Just me. I just bought a snow hand plow made in U.S.A.


----------



## Coby7

You might delay it by 3 seconds but world trade is inevitable!!!


----------



## micah68kj

Coby7 said:


> You might delay it by 3 seconds but world trade is inevitable!!!


I simply like american made. World trade has nothing to do with it. It's my personal preference.


----------



## Coby7

I believe in Canadian made too, but when you compare the 2 products of equal performance and the chinese one is 50% cheaper it's really hard to keep buying canadian when you can get it for half price. I'm not a rich man. Lately I needed 20 stainless steel bolts 40mm M8 with lock washers, washers and flange nuts. Local canadian made would cost me $86 and I had to drive there to get them. Had them delivered to my house for $29Cnd for exact same grade 304 stainless.


----------



## micah68kj

Coby7 said:


> I believe in Canadian made too, but when you compare the 2 products of equal performance and the chinese one is 50% cheaper it's really hard to keep buying canadian when you can get it for half price. I'm not a rich man. Lately I needed 20 stainless steel bolts 40mm M8 with lock washers, washers and flange nuts. Local canadian made would cost me $86 and I had to drive there to get them. Had them delivered to my house for $29Cnd for exact same grade 304 stainless.


I have a good friend who used to be in the trades. He's now a missionary to Mongolia. He says you can buy tools there that are exact copies of U.S. tools, brand names with the same weight, same logo, same colors.... They last no time a'tall. He says they're junk. They come from china. I'm a little leery of their products. Those sandals that were burning holes in people's feet. Bad dog food.. Etc. Toxic paint in toys....
As I said, it's just a choice with me.


----------



## Kenny kustom

I'm in the automotive trade, and am seeing more and more stickers from Mexico. 

On everything from hard parts to electronic modules.


----------



## micah68kj

Kenny kustom said:


> I'm in the automotive trade, and am seeing more and more stickers from Mexico.
> 
> On everything from hard parts to electronic modules.


You betcha! They'll run anywhere and everywhere to save a buck or two. I remember changing a burnt out light on my 2005 Harley (remember, the great american machine?) I pulled it out and it had "Made in *Bulgaria"* written on it. No joke.


----------



## vmaxed

This is from the bottom of the gas tank on my 2011 Victory XC (American made)


----------



## Hanky

Here in Canada we have not much or any choice. We are lucky that we can buy 2 ply non skid toilet paper that is made in Canada.


----------



## sscotsman

Coby7 said:


> I believe in Canadian made too, but when you compare the 2 products of equal performance and the chinese one is 50% cheaper it's really hard to keep buying canadian when you can get it for half price. I'm not a rich man. Lately I needed 20 stainless steel bolts 40mm M8 with lock washers, washers and flange nuts. Local canadian made would cost me $86 and I had to drive there to get them. Had them delivered to my house for $29Cnd for exact same grade 304 stainless.


There is a big difference between bolts and a complete machine like a snowblower or power tools..for most things more complicated than a bolt, the Chinese one that is 50% cheaper is certaintly not going to be of equal performance.

Scot


----------



## Kenny kustom

sscotsman said:


> There is a big difference between bolts and a complete machine like a snowblower or power tools..for most things more complicated than a bolt, the Chinese one that is 50% cheaper is certaintly not going to be of equal performance.
> 
> Scot



I can somewhat agree with this. 

Although. Are you willing to spend TWICE as much for the usa brand? 

Check your computer, tv, power tools, cell phone. All made in China.


----------



## sscotsman

Kenny kustom said:


> I can somewhat agree with this.
> 
> Although. Are you willing to spend TWICE as much for the usa brand?
> 
> Check your computer, tv, power tools, cell phone. All made in China.


Most of the time its not going to be twice as much for the USA brand, if you are comparing products of similar specs..for similar items, its going to only slightly more for the US product..if it exists..

Yes, you can buy the $99 Harbor Freight engine, and maybe you can still find a US made Briggs for twice as much..but it won't be an apples to apples comparison..the $200 Briggs will likely be superior on many levels..so yeah, its "twice as much", but its also a lot better..

With Chinese products, cheaper price nearly always means cheaper quality as well.
Not always, but most of the time..
That's how China excels at making things cheap!  labor costs are only part of it..the easiest way to make things cheaper in cost is to make them cheaper in quality..low quality costs less than high quality..when making, and buying..


----------



## unsung

I just joined this forum because I was searching for a definitive answer on a made in USA engine. I stopped by a Ariens dealership and was asking about the Plat 30 model and the Ariens dealer told me that no engine is made in USA. 

I then called Briggs and Stratton and the guy told me that all of their snowblower engines are made in USA. 

Now I am really confused. I emailed them, I'll post how they reply.


----------



## micah68kj

sscotsman said:


> Most of the time its not going to be twice as much for the USA brand, if you are comparing products of similar specs..for similar items, its going to only slightly more for the US product..if it exists..
> 
> Yes, you can buy the $99 Harbor Freight engine, and maybe you can still find a US made Briggs for twice as much..but it won't be an apples to apples comparison..the $200 Briggs will likely be superior on many levels..so yeah, its "twice as much", but its also a lot better..
> 
> With Chinese products, cheaper price nearly always means cheaper quality as well.
> Not always, but most of the time..
> That's how China excels at making things cheap!  labor costs are only part of it..the easiest way to make things cheaper in cost is to make them cheaper in quality..low quality costs less than high quality..when making, and buying..


Right with you Scot. I'm very willing to pay more for better quality.


----------



## sscotsman

unsung said:


> I just joined this forum because I was searching for a definitive answer on a made in USA engine. I stopped by a Ariens dealership and was asking about the Plat 30 model and the Ariens dealer told me that no engine is made in USA.
> 
> I then called Briggs and Stratton and the guy told me that all of their snowblower engines are made in USA.
> 
> Now I am really confused. I emailed them, I'll post how they reply.



Did you actually call the Briggs & Stratton company?
or a Briggs & Stratton dealer?
either way, whoever you spoke to was simply wrong! 

and yes, please post the reply! we would be all be interested to hear what they say..(and welcome to the forum!  )

scot


----------



## Kiss4aFrog

Welcome to the forum Unsung 

That's the problem with a lot of things. You take the time to ask questions from people who are supposed to know and you find out they don't. Not sure if they don't care, aren't willing to learn what they are selling or doing or just want to make a sale and will cut corners to do it.

It seems more and more you really do need to have or see things in writing to protect yourself. 
And even then


----------



## [email protected]

unsung said:


> I just joined this forum because I was searching for a definitive answer on a made in USA engine.


Welcome to SBF!

I work for Honda (snowblowers) and can tell you for an absolute fact, Honda single-stage snowblowers (the HS720 models) _and their engines_ are built at the Honda plant in Swepsonville, NC. This includes casting, machining, and assembly of the 190cc Honda engine on-site. The Swepsonville plant makes additional versions that are exported to Canada and Europe too.

Prior the the HS720 model, Honda had the HS520, and it too (including the engine) was also built at the Swepsonville plant (past 10 years). 

Finally, earlier this fall, Honda announced a big capital investment in the plant (millions of dollars) and *there would be "...a 2-stage snowblower built..." at the Swepsonville plant in the future.*


----------



## HillnGullyRider

unsung said:


> .
> 
> I then called Briggs and Stratton and the guy told me that all of their snowblower engines are made in USA.


Ask him for the street address of the casting foundry and see what he says...


----------



## 94EG8

sscotsman said:


> Yes, you can buy the $99 Harbor Freight engine, and maybe you can still find a US made Briggs for twice as much..but it won't be an apples to apples comparison..the $200 Briggs will likely be superior on many levels..so yeah, its "twice as much", but its also a lot better..


Yeah, except there just isn't any truth to that. As a rule a Honda clone will be a better engine than an equivalent Briggs & Stratton, and for less money. The Benefits of owning the Briggs & Stratton engine basically amounts to the parts and service network, and I'm not saying that isn't a big deal, it is, it's a very big deal if you're a business. But as far as the engine itself? Those $99 clones are better engines.



sscotsman said:


> With Chinese products, cheaper price nearly always means cheaper quality as well.
> Not always, but most of the time..
> That's how China excels at making things cheap!  labor costs are only part of it..the easiest way to make things cheaper in cost is to make them cheaper in quality..low quality costs less than high quality..when making, and buying..


That used to be true, it's less and less true all the time. This is Japan all over again. In the '50s and '60s Japan was turning out junk, then they gained a reputation turning out high end electronics in the '70s and '80s, and by the '90s they had a reputation for turning out some of the most reliable and fuel efficient cars available. The Chinese are doing this now, but they have a much larger population and much less concerned with things like pollution.


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## brickcity

hope America wakes up and starts manufacturing again. not everyone can sit behind a desk and make money.


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## AL-

The high end market is a marginal market that pays good wages. Most manufactures realize the Chinese can and do make some high end products, The Chinese have the large low end at a competitive advantage And that's what you see.


----------



## GustoGuy

94EG8 said:


> Yeah, except there just isn't any truth to that. As a rule a Honda clone will be a better engine than an equivalent Briggs & Stratton, and for less money. The Benefits of owning the Briggs & Stratton engine basically amounts to the parts and service network, and I'm not saying that isn't a big deal, it is, it's a very big deal if you're a business. But as far as the engine itself? Those $99 clones are better engines.
> 
> 
> 
> That used to be true, it's less and less true all the time. This is Japan all over again. In the '50s and '60s Japan was turning out junk, then they gained a reputation turning out high end electronics in the '70s and '80s, and by the '90s they had a reputation for turning out some of the most reliable and fuel efficient cars available. The Chinese are doing this now, but they have a much larger population and much less concerned with things like pollution.


 

Agreed. As I said before China is becoming much more adept at producing high quality products. They are building all the snowblower engines now except for Honda, which builds their own. Briggs and Stratton even builds it's small engines now in China. Yes there still are some things that are made in China that are of dubious quality but surprisingly Competition between makers of products is forcing substandard makers there out of business through loss of contracts to make engines and other products. Harbor Freight does not make the Predator engines. They have contracted out with Loncin and some other makers for engines. At one time Lifan made the Blue Grey hound clones which were an exact copy of the Honda Gx 196cc engine. They do not make the Predator engines anymore and very few parts will interchange with Honda Gx engines now since flywheel taper is different and larger displacement


----------



## sscotsman

94EG8 said:


> Yeah, except there just isn't any truth to that. As a rule a Honda clone will be a better engine than an equivalent Briggs & Stratton, and for less money. The Benefits of owning the Briggs & Stratton engine basically amounts to the parts and service network, and I'm not saying that isn't a big deal, it is, it's a very big deal if you're a business. But as far as the engine itself? Those $99 clones are better engines.


You dont know that..you have no data to suggest "those $99 clones are better engines" than Briggs.
yes, its true that all snowblower engines are now made in China..
but there is still a BIG difference between chinese made engines on new Ariens, Toro, Briggs, even MTD's, when compared to the $99 Harbor freight clone..
just because "they are all made in China" does not mean "they are all equal"..not by a long shot.

unfortunately hard data is hard to come by..so what can we use to base these views on? If you are looking for a new car, you might pick up a copy of the Consumer Reports auto issue..it has hundreds, even thousands, of ratings from *actual owners* of the vehicles, over long-term use..its not perfect, but it does make it pretty clear that a Honda Civic is much more reliable vehicle than a Jeep Wrangler..its really the best we have for ratings..so where can we find similar data for engines? Amazon..amazon is the only seller that doesn't cherry-pick reviews..they allow all reviews of products they sell, even negative reviews..(ratings and reviews on actual manufacturer websites are useless..because its obvious they would only put *good* ratings on their actual company website..amazon has a policy of allowing all ratings, so we can use them as a decent source of data..)

For this sample, im going to use:
4 and 5 star reviews = "satisfied"
1 and 2 star reviews = "unsatisfied"
3 stars is neutral, and not counted.

*Predator engine:*
http://tinyurl.com/pw5t2a7
6.5HP, 212cc, $155.
Thirty 4 and 5 star reviews.
Five 1-star reviews.
*85% satisfied.
15% dissatisfied.*

85% satisfied might seem like a good number..
but that also means an average 15 out of 100 buyers give it a "1-star",
which means the engine had lots of problems..
15 out of 100 is a high failure rate for a consumer product.


*Briggs engine.*
The comparable Briggs model on amazon.
Amazon.com : Briggs & Stratton 130G32-0022-F1 905 Series 205CC Engine with 3/4-Inch Diameter by 2-27/64-Inch Length and Keyway Tapped 5/16-24-Inch : Lawn And Garden Tool Accessories : Patio, Lawn & Garden
205cc, $227.
seven 5-star reviews.
no other reviews.
*100% satisfied.
0% dissatisfied.*

There are other models on amazon, Lifan and Loncin and other Briggs,
but most only have one customer rating, which isnt enough data to use.

so yeah, that might not be a scientific survey, but its better than nothing..
and it does show that engine buying consumers aren't finding the low-end Honda clones to be quite as perfect as some here like to suggest. and it shows the Briggs are noticeably better.

Scot


----------



## Coby7

sscotsman said:


> *Briggs engine.*
> The comparable Briggs model on amazon.
> Amazon.com : Briggs & Stratton 130G32-0022-F1 905 Series 205CC Engine with 3/4-Inch Diameter by 2-27/64-Inch Length and Keyway Tapped 5/16-24-Inch : Lawn And Garden Tool Accessories : Patio, Lawn & Garden
> 205cc, $227.
> seven 1-star reviews.
> no other reviews.
> *100% satisfied.
> 0% dissatisfied.*
> 
> 
> Scot


Maybe I'm not reading this right but how can 7 unsatisfied reviews be viewed as 100% satisfied?


----------



## sscotsman

Coby7 said:


> Maybe I'm not reading this right but how can 7 unsatisfied reviews be viewed as 100% satisfied?


'doh! typo..I fixed it.
its actually seven 5-star reviews.

Scot


----------



## HJames

sscotsman said:


> 94EG8 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, except there just isn't any truth to that. As a rule a Honda clone will be a better engine than an equivalent Briggs & Stratton, and for less money. The Benefits of owning the Briggs & Stratton engine basically amounts to the parts and service network, and I'm not saying that isn't a big deal, it is, it's a very big deal if you're a business. But as far as the engine itself? Those $99 clones are better engines.
> 
> 
> 
> You dont know that..you have no data to suggest "those $99 clones are better engines" than Briggs.
> yes, its true that all snowblower engines are now made in China..
> but there is still a BIG difference between chinese made engines on new Ariens, Toro, Briggs, even MTD's, when compared to the $99 Harbor freight clone..
> just because "they are all made in China" does not mean "they are all equal"..not by a long shot.
> 
> unfortunately hard data is hard to come by..so what can we use to base these views on? If you are looking for a new car, you might pick up a copy of the Consumer Reports auto issue..it has hundreds, even thousands, of ratings from *actual owners* of the vehicles, over long-term use..its not perfect, but it does make it pretty clear that a Honda Civic is much more reliable vehicle than a Jeep Wrangler..its really the best we have for ratings..so where can we find similar data for engines? Amazon..amazon is the only seller that doesn't cherry-pick reviews..they allow all reviews of products they sell, even negative reviews..(ratings and reviews on actual manufacturer websites are useless..because its obvious they would only put *good* ratings on their actual company website..amazon has a policy of allowing all ratings, so we can use them as a decent source of data..)
> 
> For this sample, im going to use:
> 4 and 5 star reviews = "satisfied"
> 1 and 2 star reviews = "unsatisfied"
> 3 stars is neutral, and not counted.
> 
> *Predator engine:*
> http://tinyurl.com/pw5t2a7
> 6.5HP, 212cc, $155.
> Thirty 4 and 5 star reviews.
> Five 1-star reviews.
> *85% satisfied.
> 15% dissatisfied.*
> 
> 85% satisfied might seem like a good number..
> but that also means an average 15 out of 100 buyers give it a "1-star",
> which means the engine had lots of problems..
> 15 out of 100 is a high failure rate for a consumer product.
> 
> 
> *Briggs engine.*
> The comparable Briggs model on amazon.
> Amazon.com : Briggs & Stratton 130G32-0022-F1 905 Series 205CC Engine with 3/4-Inch Diameter by 2-27/64-Inch Length and Keyway Tapped 5/16-24-Inch : Lawn And Garden Tool Accessories : Patio, Lawn & Garden
> 205cc, $227.
> seven 5-star reviews.
> no other reviews.
> *100% satisfied.
> 0% dissatisfied.*
> 
> There are other models on amazon, Lifan and Loncin and other Briggs,
> but most only have one customer rating, which isnt enough data to use.
> 
> so yeah, that might not be a scientific survey, but its better than nothing..
> and it does show that engine buying consumers aren't finding the low-end Honda clones to be quite as perfect as some here like to suggest. and it shows the Briggs are noticeably better.
> 
> Scot
Click to expand...

I deal with a lot of reviews in my line of work and it's necesary to read the customers comments to get a full view of the review, the customer ratings are subjective without the context of their comments. In the case of the 1 star reviews on Amazon when reading the comments you find that:
Reviewer #1 had one complaint that focused around the exhaust manifold protruding out too far. This left him unable to use the engine in his application. This doesn't give any indication that there was a problem with the engine.
Reviewer #2 indicates that the engine "works good!" It is common for people to rate items lower even though they are completely satisfied.

Reviewer #3 had no issues for the first 2 1/2 years, then complains of carb issues leading to gas leaks. This is common with the quality of today's gas as we all know.

Reviewers 4 & 5 have real complaints relating to the quality of the engine out of the box. 

5- 1 star reviews with 2 customers that have legitimate complaints regarding the quality of the engine that can be directly attributed to the manufacturer.

94% satisfied
6% unsatisfied

A persons comments are far more revealing than how many stars they gave.


----------



## 94EG8

sscotsman said:


> You dont know that..you have no data to suggest "those $99 clones are better engines" than Briggs.


I have worked on several hundred small engines on outdoor power equipment. I'd say I easily make that assertion. I worked for an authorized Briggs & Stratton, Tecumseh, Murray, Craftsman, and MTD repair shop. That means I had access to shop manuals, parts look up, service bulletins, special service tools and the like. It also means I worked on a high enough volume of stuff to see pattern failures. Also, small engine shops, at least in the area I'm in talk to each other a lot, so you have an even larger knowledge base. So when I say "those $99 clones are better engines" You can take that to the bank. 



sscotsman said:


> yes, its true that all snowblower engines are now made in China..
> but there is still a BIG difference between chinese made engines on new Ariens, Toro, Briggs, even MTD's, when compared to the $99 Harbor freight clone..
> just because "they are all made in China" does not mean "they are all equal"..not by a long shot.


They may no all be equal, but they're not that far apart most of the time either. Every time a take apart a clone, regardless of brand, I'm impressed with it. Every time I take apart a Briggs & Stratton I wonder how they're still in business. I remember we had a ton of single cylinder B&S lawn tractor engines fail, 17 - 21hp or so. Compression release would fall off the cam, and when it did it would jam between the cam and crank gears causing catastrophic engine failure most of the time. Occasionally you'd get one where the only damage was the cam. I decided to fix one of these one day, ordered a new cam, compression release had fallen off inside the box, ordered another one, same thing, finally got a good cam on the 3rd attempt. This is one of the reasons I seriously wonder how they stay afloat and how much longer they'll be able to do so.



sscotsman said:


> unfortunately hard data is hard to come by..so what can we use to base these views on? If you are looking for a new car, you might pick up a copy of the Consumer Reports auto issue..it has hundreds, even thousands, of ratings from *actual owners* of the vehicles, over long-term use..its not perfect, but it does make it pretty clear that a Honda Civic is much more reliable vehicle than a Jeep Wrangler..its really the best we have for ratings..so where can we find similar data for engines? Amazon..amazon is the only seller that doesn't cherry-pick reviews..they allow all reviews of products they sell, even negative reviews..(ratings and reviews on actual manufacturer websites are useless..because its obvious they would only put *good* ratings on their actual company website..amazon has a policy of allowing all ratings, so we can use them as a decent source of data..)
> 
> For this sample, im going to use:
> 4 and 5 star reviews = "satisfied"
> 1 and 2 star reviews = "unsatisfied"
> 3 stars is neutral, and not counted.
> 
> *Predator engine:*
> http://tinyurl.com/pw5t2a7
> 6.5HP, 212cc, $155.
> Thirty 4 and 5 star reviews.
> Five 1-star reviews.
> *85% satisfied.
> 15% dissatisfied.*
> 
> 85% satisfied might seem like a good number..
> but that also means an average 15 out of 100 buyers give it a "1-star",
> which means the engine had lots of problems..
> 15 out of 100 is a high failure rate for a consumer product.
> 
> 
> *Briggs engine.*
> The comparable Briggs model on amazon.
> Amazon.com : Briggs & Stratton 130G32-0022-F1 905 Series 205CC Engine with 3/4-Inch Diameter by 2-27/64-Inch Length and Keyway Tapped 5/16-24-Inch : Lawn And Garden Tool Accessories : Patio, Lawn & Garden
> 205cc, $227.
> seven 5-star reviews.
> no other reviews.
> *100% satisfied.
> 0% dissatisfied.*
> 
> There are other models on amazon, Lifan and Loncin and other Briggs,
> but most only have one customer rating, which isnt enough data to use.
> 
> so yeah, that might not be a scientific survey, but its better than nothing..
> and it does show that engine buying consumers aren't finding the low-end Honda clones to be quite as perfect as some here like to suggest. and it shows the Briggs are noticeably better.
> 
> Scot


Consumers are rarely qualified to write reviews. Half the time they'll give a poor review because they're using a product for something it wasn't designed for, or due to their experience purchasing the product.

Even when you read a lot of professional automotive reviews, they aren't based on quality, it's based more on things like feature set, road noise, on road handling, etc. Every time I read a review of a Jeep Wrangler all I'm really seeing is someone trying to compare a Jeep to a Camry and then giving it a bad review when it doesn't measure up. I mean the wrangler certainly has more than it's share of problems, but when you're getting a bad review because of things like "too high, too rough, too much wind noise" I think you need think about what it is you're reviewing and what it's supposed to do.


----------



## GustoGuy

I own 3 HF Predator 212cc engines and the oldest one is about 3 years old on the mini bike and so far I have been impressed with how easy these engines start and how quiet they are and how well they run. My Tecumseh on my MTD 5/22 was a much more finicky engine. It could be hard to start even when it was still fairly new especially if left out side in the cold. As the engine became older it started to have more issues and I clean and rebuilt the carburetor on it and I had always used Amsoil synthetic in it and always put in a new spark plug each and every year. The Chinese made Harbor Freight Predator 212cc Honda clone is definitely superior to an old flathead Tecumseh. I do not own any new OHV Briggs engines so I cannot comment on that. However as a replacement for a tired old Tecumseh the Predator 212cc is an excellent choice since it seems to have as much power as my old 8hp 319cc flat head Briggs did and it is so much quieter and smoother running engine. Plus I can run the engine darn near all day on just 1 tank of gasoline. The Tecumseh would burn as much gas or even more gas than the new OHV engine and the new OHV engine is so much more powerful and smoother. Do I have to show you the video again of my re-powered snow blower blowing snow for people to realize that these engines run really well.


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## micah68kj

Let's all have this conversation 35 years from now. :icon_whistling:


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## GustoGuy

micah68kj said:


> Let's all have this conversation 35 years from now. :icon_whistling:


At most the clone engines have only been around for 10 years. But I still believe that the Honda design that they are built on is superior to the antiquated old Flatheads found on most snowblower built 10 years or more ago. In fact when Honda came out with the GX 240 back in 1986 it was much more advanced than the old flathead engines of the day. Honda took it's expertise learned in making high performance motorcycle engine and it designed a great small engine which has become the design standard we now use today. Briggs and Straton as well as Tecumseh could have been more innovative. At least Briggs survived but they are now making OHV engines that have been influenced in their design by the Honda small OHV engines.


----------



## HillnGullyRider

94EG8 said:


> Yeah, except there just isn't any truth to that. As a rule a Honda clone will be a better engine than an equivalent Briggs & Stratton, and for less money. The Benefits of owning the Briggs & Stratton engine basically amounts to the parts and service network, and I'm not saying that isn't a big deal, it is, it's a very big deal if you're a business. But as far as the engine itself? Those $99 clones are better engines.


With $13 NEW carbs and $20 NEW gas tanks on ebay, who cares about dealer network anymore? If you can make do without lights or electric start, it's extremely efficient to run a Honda clone on a small modern blower. My bet is, pretty soon they'll start showing up with e-start and heater boxes for $150.
You will always need the dealer for the chassis parts though, and that is the other side effect of the onslaught of cheap clones...Look for the other parts to skyrocket in price as the dealer struggles to stay in the parts biz.


----------



## brickcity

micah68kj said:


> Let's all have this conversation 35 years from now. :icon_whistling:


with in 10 years china will no longer be able to produce $99 predetors. they are building billion dollar citys that the average worker cant afford to live in. biggest housing bubble in recent history. crash and burn economy for all but the .0001% over there.
google china ghost towns.
now the uber rich are developing land in America so they can expedite visa'a to come to America


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## Quickrick

I put a 6 HP Subaru EX 17 motor on my Cyclone Leaf Rake after the Tecumseh finally wore out. It is a chain drive OHV design, very quiet and easy to start. The label on the box states "made in China". 

So even some Japanese engines are farmed out to China. 

Americans don't really care much so manufacturers get away with it. Try asking your neighbor about his Chinese motor and he will look at you funny because it isn't even on his radar.

QR


----------



## sscotsman

So here is an interesting "globalization" story that was in the news today:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/12/a...lina-for-500-million-assembly-plant.html?_r=0

it made me think of this thread! 
So when this new Volvo plant is up and running and new cars are coming off the assembly line, 
will the cars be "Swedish cars", "Chinese cars" or "American cars"??
depending on your point of view, the answer is "yes".

strange days indeed..

Scot


----------



## GustoGuy

sscotsman said:


> So here is an interesting "globalization" story that was in the news today:
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/12/a...lina-for-500-million-assembly-plant.html?_r=0
> 
> it made me think of this thread!
> So when this new Volvo plant is up and running and new cars are coming off the assembly line,
> will the cars be "Swedish cars", "Chinese cars" or "American cars"??
> depending on your point of view, the answer is "yes".
> 
> strange days indeed..
> 
> Scot


Yes. If Warren Buffet has his way Chinese cars will soon be sold in America. China is becoming 
An economic giant and while Buick cars are all the rage in China right now The Chinese companies are starting to develop cars that are not too terrible in quality and reliability and soon they may unfortunately be sold here. What is really bad about China in the global market is that they use currency manipulation to make their products the cheapest available. However it is stating to cause inflation there since their government is actively involved in devaluation of their currency. Soon Multinationals will be looking for even cheaper labor and China will loose out on the low cost manufacturering. That is why they are starting to make cars and electronics especially high end electronics.


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## Kiss4aFrog

When they move from China to Vietnam to build snow blowers you know a bean counter somewhere found a new cheap labor pool.


----------



## GustoGuy

Kiss4aFrog said:


> When they move from China to Vietnam to build snow blowers you know a bean counter somewhere found a new cheap labor pool.


The only thing a Multinational demands is that the country is politically stable since they do no want to have thier investment destroyed by war or taken away or nationalized after a civil war or *coup d'etat*. ​


----------



## Kiss4aFrog

And the Chinese manufacturers are keeping an eye on us. We have a new member who has Wotuo Machinery's info address as their home page. Smart people likely looking for marketing info.

I'm interested to see if they do any promotion of their machines or post anything.

SBF member page: Snowblower Forum : Snow Blower Forums - View Profile: wotuo

Their web page: Yongkang WOTUO Machinery Manufacturing Co., Ltd.


----------



## TheSuMofGoD

Kiss4aFrog said:


> And the Chinese manufacturers are keeping an eye on us. We have a new member who has Wotuo Machinery's info address as their home page. Smart people likely looking for marketing info.
> 
> I'm interested to see if they do any promotion of their machines or post anything.
> 
> SBF member page: Snowblower Forum : Snow Blower Forums - View Profile: wotuo
> 
> Their web page: Yongkang WOTUO Machinery Manufacturing Co., Ltd.



This day in age, it is what it is. At least he(they) are not hiding who they represent.


----------



## 762mm

*BYD says Chinese cars headed to U.S. in late 2015*



GustoGuy said:


> Yes. If Warren Buffet has his way Chinese cars will soon be sold in America.


Soon... as in "late 2015" :

http://www.autonews.com/article/201...says-chinese-cars-headed-to-u.s.-in-late-2015

:huh:


----------



## bwdbrn1

Kiss4aFrog said:


> And the Chinese manufacturers are keeping an eye on us. We have a new member who has Wotuo Machinery's info address as their home page. Smart people likely looking for marketing info.
> 
> I'm interested to see if they do any promotion of their machines or post anything.
> 
> SBF member page: Snowblower Forum : Snow Blower Forums - View Profile: wotuo
> 
> Their web page: Yongkang WOTUO Machinery Manufacturing Co., Ltd.


We HAD a Chinese manufacturing company join. Until they tell us a bit more about themselves like every other member has, they'll join the ranks of those from the Middle East who keep offering creams to smooth our skin.


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## detdrbuzzard

that cream isn't to smooth your skin its to make your snowblower chute slick so the snow doesn't stick


----------



## bwdbrn1

Darn it all. Those things were so badly written, I must have missed that in their description. Maybe we should stop deleting them and banning those who write them. What do you guys say?


----------



## Loco-diablo

762mm said:


> Soon... as in "late 2015" :
> 
> http://www.autonews.com/article/201...says-chinese-cars-headed-to-u.s.-in-late-2015
> 
> :huh:


Chinese built Volvo's will be here very soon!


----------



## Kiss4aFrog

What does it say about "our" quality when China starts to return our stuff for not meeting their standards :blush::blush:








Aug. 21 (Bloomberg) -- China has returned 272 heart pacemakers imported from the U.S. in April after quality tests found problems that could cause ``major'' health hazards, the country's top quality regulator said. 
The pacemakers, made by St. Paul, Minnesota-based St. Jude Medical Inc., had pulse-strength properties that were different from those stated, the General Administration of Quality Supervision, Inspection and Quarantine said in a statement on its Web site late yesterday. The test-result differences exceeded a 2 percent limit by Chinese standards, it said. 
The use of unqualified pacemakers will likely lead to misdiagnosis and cause ``major hazards'' to patients with heart diseases, the regulator said, citing unidentified experts. The products, valued at $236,294 in total, were tested by quality inspectors in Shanghai in April and returned, it said.


----------



## skydancer

Just read thru all this thread which is interesting to say the least. I have a 2008 White Outdoors 28" snow blower with a Briggs 1150 snow series 250cc engine on it. Looks like it was manufactured by MTD back then. I was thinking of selling it. Is it safe to say it's American Made?
Also who makes the 2015 Briggs & Stratton 2 stage Sno blowers ?


----------



## sscotsman

skydancer said:


> Just read thru all this thread which is interesting to say the least. I have a 2008 White Outdoors 28" snow blower with a Briggs 1150 snow series 250cc engine on it. Looks like it was manufactured by MTD back then. I was thinking of selling it. Is it safe to say it's American Made?
> Also who makes the 2015 Briggs & Stratton 2 stage Sno blowers ?


A Briggs 1150 series engine of that era was probably made in China..I believe Briggs started making their smaller lawnmower and snowblower engines in China around year 2000..although I'm not 100% certain on the exact timeline and models..

And yes, your White was made by MTD, in the USA.

Today's Briggs snowblowers are made by Briggs..snowblowers made in the USA, engines made in China. Current Briggs snowblowers are based on ancestral Simplicity (pro series) and Murray (consumer series) patterns.

Scot


----------



## K-TRON

All of my snow removal equipment is proudly made in the United States of America! I say that with pride as all of it is 50+ years old and continues to run laps around all of the consumer garbage sold today!

Chris


----------



## PixMan

K-TRON said:


> All of my snow removal equipment is proudly made in the United States of America! I say that with pride as all of it is 50+ years old and continues to run laps around all of the consumer garbage sold today!
> 
> Chris


 Let me guess, you've got a Harley and an F150 too? And a Sony TV, a Samsung phone, a computer (obviously), and a host of other consumer items which were all made in China.

It's a dead issue, manufacturing is global now. Period.

There are cars, car parts, electronics, kitchen gadgets, everything under the sun that are made in China. And in Thailand, Vietnam, Germany, Bulgaria, USA and more. The source of virtually ANYTHING is based upon myriad mitigating factors, from cost of energy to materials source to labor cost to distribution networks and it's all based upon the scale of the market, the way it is bought and the quality people are willing to pay for.

With snowblowers we here in the US still know how to press some steel, bend some tubing, paint it and bolt it all together. For now, it's still more economical to do this here for those machines which people will pay decent money. It doesn't make economic sense to manufacture parts for and build the engines here anymore or they (B&S, LCT, Loncin) would have the plants here and do it. And that could in fact happen if we get more productive, keep energy costs down and perhaps be willing to fork over a little more money for (at least) perceived higher quality.

Given the predisposition of so many people to buying all kinds of products on price alone without consideration of quality or how such purchases drive our economy, globalization is going to determine the process. We are the only ones who can change it, and until the masses better understand how much rides on how we spend our money this is how it will be.


----------



## Cardo111

PixMan said:


> Let me guess, you've got a Harley and an F150 too? And a Sony TV, a Samsung phone, a computer (obviously), and a host of other consumer items which were all made in China.
> 
> It's a dead issue, manufacturing is global now. Period.
> 
> There are cars, car parts, electronics, kitchen gadgets, everything under the sun that are made in China. And in Thailand, Vietnam, Germany, Bulgaria, USA and more. The source of virtually ANYTHING is based upon myriad mitigating factors, from cost of energy to materials source to labor cost to distribution networks and it's all based upon the scale of the market, the way it is bought and the quality people are willing to pay for.
> 
> With snowblowers we here in the US still know how to press some steel, bend some tubing, paint it and bolt it all together. For now, it's still more economical to do this here for those machines which people will pay decent money. It doesn't make economic sense to manufacture parts for and build the engines here anymore or they (B&S, LCT, Loncin) would have the plants here and do it. And that could in fact happen if we get more productive, keep energy costs down and perhaps be willing to fork over a little more money for (at least) perceived higher quality.
> 
> Given the predisposition of so many people to buying all kinds of products on price alone without consideration of quality or how such purchases drive our economy, globalization is going to determine the process. We are the only ones who can change it, and until the masses better understand how much rides on how we spend our money this is how it will be.


Well said.


----------



## Snowzer

PixMan said:


> Let me guess, you've got a Harley and an F150 too? And a Sony TV, a Samsung phone, a computer (obviously), and a host of other consumer items which were all made in China.
> 
> It's a dead issue, manufacturing is global now. Period.
> 
> There are cars, car parts, electronics, kitchen gadgets, everything under the sun that are made in China. And in Thailand, Vietnam, Germany, Bulgaria, USA and more. The source of virtually ANYTHING is based upon myriad mitigating factors, from cost of energy to materials source to labor cost to distribution networks and it's all based upon the scale of the market, the way it is bought and the quality people are willing to pay for.
> 
> With snowblowers we here in the US still know how to press some steel, bend some tubing, paint it and bolt it all together. For now, it's still more economical to do this here for those machines which people will pay decent money. It doesn't make economic sense to manufacture parts for and build the engines here anymore or they (B&S, LCT, Loncin) would have the plants here and do it. And that could in fact happen if we get more productive, keep energy costs down and perhaps be willing to fork over a little more money for (at least) perceived higher quality.
> 
> Given the predisposition of so many people to buying all kinds of products on price alone without consideration of quality or how such purchases drive our economy, globalization is going to determine the process. We are the only ones who can change it, and until the masses better understand how much rides on how we spend our money this is how it will be.



I like Trump's plan to reduce the corporate tax rate to 15% which should bring back a lot of corporations from overseas. There is about two trillion dollars over there that we could potentially recoup and that does not include the corporations who may relocate their HQ's between now and what is left of the current presidents time in office. 

We have lost skills in trades that we may never fully recover since they were traditionally passed down from generation to generation. Some of that we don't care too much about since we have moved to the use and replace economy (shoes are good example as well as many brake rotors that are no longer machined just replaced). The list goes on but there are still skills we would love to have back (machine shops for example). 
My motto is: Think American, speak English, protect America, Believe in America, Teach our children the same.

Will "Made in America" cost more at the cash register? Initially yes but if the government supplements that cost instead of giving welfare to illegals then we have a chance of making it work. In other words we could potentially "Make America Great Again".

Nearly all (if not all) of the corporations that left this country did NOT want to leave. The tax savings was so large they could not pass it up. These companies will come back with open arms since they are very uncomfortable being headquartered over there in the first place.


----------



## bwdbrn1

Yes, we certainly live in a global economy. While much of our production has moved to foreign countries, we can't ignore the fact that there is a lot of foreign companies bringing manufacturing here. Honda and Toyota come to mind right away. Honda makes all sorts of products here in the U.S. and it wasn't long ago that sscotsman pointed out that the Toyota Tundra was the most American of trucks based on the source of parts used to manufacture them.

Ummm, while we're all at it, when you've got nothing better to do, take a look at the companies that power this forum.


----------



## Kiss4aFrog

With 18trillion in debt I'd be much more comfortable with taxing the crap out of companies that move my job out of country and then import that product back in.

As has been pointed out before there is something inherently wrong with a company that produces a product but pays their employee so little they can never afford it.
Before someone says yacht or something else really expensive I'm talking the day to day things like tennis shoes, TVs, microwaves, ... that manufacturing was moved to countries where the workers don't even have shoes, electricity or even clean water.

And then we come to snowblowers and the fight over China vs US engines. I'd love to go all US but it's just not in the cards.
Hard to compete with a well designed (likely stolen form Honda) 99 dollar 6.5 hp engine built in China.


----------



## Normex

+1 with Kiss4afrog


----------



## bwdbrn1

Sure is. At $99, they're almost throw away. I favor Honda engines myself. I replaced an old badly cared for and worn out Briggs and Stratton that was on a used Jari sickle mower I bought a few years ago with a used Honda GX160. It starts easily and runs very quietly. I have a Craftsman (Troy Bilt) chipper/shredder with an 8 HP Tecumseh on it. Darn thing is like the Ever Ready bunny, it just keeps going and going. When it finally gives up the ghost, I'd like to replace it with a Honda GX, but it's going to have to be a used one because a new 9 HP just won't be in the budget.

A friend of mine asked me to look at a used garden tiller his 80 some year old father had picked up. It had a Briggs and Stratton that didn't have any spark. Time didn't allow me to get into it too far, so I never figured out the problem. When I asked about it the other day, his father had popped for one of the $99 Predators, bolted it right on. I asked him how he liked that Predator and he said he loves it. It starts very easily for him and runs nicely. I looked at it briefly, and darn thing looks so much like a Honda it's scary.


----------



## CarlB

While the predator is very similar to the Honda GX series the older harbor Freight greyhound engines are copies of the GX series and most of if not all parts are interchangeable. 

Honda's patent on the GX series has long since expired since the engine has been around since the mid 80"s


----------



## sscotsman

Update For February 2016:



sscotsman said:


> Updated list!
> the Chinese brand names are getting so numerous, I have now put them in alphabetical order!
> Below is copied and pasted from previous posts, with updated names:
> 
> Updated list..some new 100% Chinese brand names have come to light..
> List as of February 2016:
> 
> Snowblower bodies still made in the USA (everything except the engine):
> All Ariens and Ariens Sno-Tek.
> All Briggs & Stratton, Snapper, Simplicity, Brute, Murray.
> Probably all Husquvarna/Poulan.
> 
> Most MTD's still made in the USA, although perhaps not all.. I believe MTD might be importing some 100% Chinese models for their really low end..Or brands like Craftsman is importing them, not MTD..its hard to know for sure what it going on..its best IMO to just avoid MTD names all together. (MTD, Cub Cadet, Troy-Bilt, Yard-machines, Yardman, most Craftsman)
> 
> Toro moved 2-stage snowblower production to Mexico in 2013.
> Toro now has (as of 2014 model year) snowblower bodies made in Mexico, with engines made in China. No Toro 2-stage snowblowers are made in the USA anymore. (all 2-stage snowblower _engines_, on _all_ brands except Honda, are now made in China.)
> 
> If you want a 100% Made in the USA snowblower, the entire unit, the snowblower and the engine both, there is one remaining choice..
> Honda! (single-stage only)
> Here is the update on Honda for 2016:
> 
> 
> 
> [email protected] said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you want to add Honda:
> 
> • All Honda single-stage machines (3 models) are 100% manufactured (including the engine) at Honda's plant in Swepsonville, NC
> • Honda 2-stages machines (10 models) are also made there, but the engines are built at a Honda plant in Thailand.
> • All snow blowers built at the Honda plant in Swepsonville are further exported to Canada, Europe, and the U.K.
> • Honda single-stage snow blowers are the only ones sold in the USA that are 100% made in the USA
> • Honda snow engines are only available on a Honda snow blower. Honda does not sell their snow engines to any other manufacturer.
> 
> 
> 
> Here are the known brand names that are 100% made in China..these machines should be avoided at all costs!
> never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never
> never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never buy one of these:
> 
> Amico
> Beast (Home Depot)
> DEK (Sears)
> Echelon
> GXi Outdoor Power
> Huskee
> Jet Moto
> Mansfield
> Powerland
> Power Smart
> PowRcraft
> Pow'R'kraft
> Snow Beast (Home Depot)
> Snow Joe
> Stanley
> Sunsay
> Tao
> Tao Tao
> World Lawn
> Visita
> Yongkang
> Yongkang Visita
> 
> There are probably more..
> (many of those brands also make mowers and other products..I wouldnt buy anything made those brands)
> never never never buy one of these! Here is some reading about the quality you can expect if you do:
> 
> http://www.snowblowerforum.com/foru...6058-new-stanley-36-commerical-two-stage.html
> 
> http://www.snowblowerforum.com/foru...orum/7586-36-inch-stanley-already-broken.html
> 
> 
> Amazon customer reviews of a powerland model:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And Amazon customer reviews of Stanley model..there is ONE 5-star review, from the manufacturer!
> and four 1-star reviews, from actual owners of the machine:
> http://tinyurl.com/luf2c24
> (update, Amazon removed the 5-star review that was from the manufacturer! good for them..now only real customer reviews remain.)
> 
> Scot
Click to expand...


----------



## chargin

What about Amico from China, looks like a Honda clone ?
Anyone try one ?


----------



## sscotsman

chargin said:


> What about Amico from China, looks like a Honda clone ?
> Anyone try one ?


never heard of it!
thats a new one for the list too..thanks!

Scot


----------



## [email protected]

sscotsman said:


> Update on the 100% made in China brand names, February 2016:


If you want to add Honda:

• All Honda single-stage machines (3 models) are 100% manufactured (including the engine) at Honda's plant in Swepsonville, NC
• Honda HSS-series 2-stages machines (10 models) are also made there, but the engines are built at a Honda plant in Thailand.
• All snow blowers built at the Honda plant in Swepsonville are further exported to Canada, Europe, and the U.K.
• Honda single-stage snow blowers are the only ones sold in the USA that are 100% made in the USA
• Honda snow engines are only available on a Honda snow blower. Honda does not sell their snow engines to any other manufacturer.


----------



## sscotsman

thanks Robert!
I will add that info to the list.
Scot


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## Kielbasa

It's going to be really hard to lift a Toro Sno Thro over that wall...  



sscotsman said:


> Updated list..some new Chinese brand names have come to light..
> List as of January 2014:
> 
> Snowblower bodies still made in the USA:
> All Ariens.
> All Briggs, Snapper, Simplicity, Brute, Murray.
> Probably all Husquvarna/Poulan.
> 
> Most MTD's still made in the USA, although perhaps not all.. I believe MTD might be importing some 100% Chinese models for their really low end..Or brands like Craftsman is importing them, not MTD..its hard to know for sure what it going on..its best IMO to just avoid MTD names all together. (MTD, Cub Cadet, Troy-Bilt, Yard-machines, Yardman, most Craftsman)
> 
> Toro moved production to Mexico this year, so they are now off the list too.
> Toro now has (as of 2014 model year) snowblower bodies made in Mexico, with engines made in China. No Toro 2-stage snowblowers are made in the USA anymore.
> 
> Here are the known brand names that are 100% made in China..these machines should be avoided at all costs:
> 
> Stanley
> World Lawn
> Snow Beast
> Huskee
> Powerland
> Snow Joe
> powRcraft
> Echelon
> 
> There are probably more..
> And its likely some Craftsman snowblowers are now 100% made in China, although its hard to know which ones..(some, but not all, will say "Made in China" on the data tag) and I wouldnt be surprised if some lower-end MTD names, like yard-machines, now also have some 100% chinese machines in the lineup..
> 
> Scot


----------



## NJHonda

Im being honest here. I used to HATE and DESPISE non US built blowers. Untill I purchased a New Tore snowmaster. The Mexican built blower is super nice and works great, and the China engine is nothing short of amazing. I definitely have a new outlook..


----------



## pitbull plowing

after reading thru this post.... I think i am very happy i bought the rebuilt 1980s model craftsman 5 horse 22 inch 2 stage snowblower from my friend instead of a new 2 stage from menards.


----------



## coastie56

Rockys cycle supply in Flint has two used Heavy Duty Amurican blowers in nice shape, an old Ariens with a repower motor and a Gilson all origonal. Around 200 bucks a piece.


----------



## detdrbuzzard

coastie56 said:


> Rockys cycle supply in Flint has two used Heavy Duty Amurican blowers in nice shape, an old Ariens with a repower motor and a Gilson all origonal. Around 200 bucks a piece.


by the time I make it to rocky's those will be gone, not that I need another snow blower


----------



## FearlessFront

LCT, Liquid combustion Technology purchased the right to Tecumseh powers name, along with Lauson. There engines are made in China, I believe they are a chinese based company. The engines they build have nothing in common with an actual Tecumseh engine. Also it is important to note Tecumseh is still in business in America making air conditioning component's. They have been doing that a long time in fact most likely before they were making engine's because Tecumseh bought out Lauson in 1959 and began making engines from 1959 for the 1960 model year and they were called Lauson power products a division of Tecumseh. Actual Tecumseh power products was in business from 1959 to December 2008 and were used on 2009 model year products that were being built in late 2008. That is just about a half century, 90% of Snowblowers had a Tecumseh engine from 1960-2009, Tecumseh engines were, are and still are known as the best snowblower engines ever built and are still highly sought after on snowblower and other equipment rebuilds, anyone who puts down Tecumseh, most likely never used a snowblower. LCT has nothing in common with Tecumseh other than the rights to the name. Peerless Transmissions which was a division of Tecumseh power products was sold off to Husqvarna. Tecumseh is still in business making a/c components. You can look up company information for just about any company on wikipedia.


----------



## PixMan

It's a good engine, the LCT. As far as I know it is a US based company, but even if it's not I'm not going to worry about it. The engine on my snowblower and on my son's both work terrific, and so far...better than the Tecumseh 358cc 10-1/2 hp engine on my previous machine. By far. That thing shook itself to pieces, losing the starter first, then carburetor and numerous other bits. I couldn't keep up with it. My LCT engine? Oil & gas. Just the way I like it.


----------



## Cardo111

I have had no issues at this point with my LCT engines. LCT is based out of Travelers Rest, SC. With offices in China and Australia manufacturing facilities are in China (per their website). When I called them when researching a new blower a few years ago they told me that a lot of Tecumseh engineers came on board.

The only issue I have with my newer 369cc engine is the gas cap is a joke designed like a cheap radiator cap (worst I ever seen, takes minutes to put on and the strainer has to be removed to avoid frustration which defeats its purpose). I also had very good luck with my old Tecumseh HMSK80 Sno King 8hp engine that was on my old MTD it served me well over the 20 years I owned it, I changed the oil every year on it. The LCT engines seem to start easier 1 pull has been my experience thus far. My old Tecumseh after the 1st year or so always required the electric starter to get it going from a cold start.


----------



## FearlessFront

I have to agree and this is from personal experience. Those Predator Honda Clones that are selling for $99 bucks are great. Two companies have made that name engine. Loncin made the one with the Hemi head, Loncin is a subsidiary of Yamaha and rato is making the non hemi version. I purchased a non hemi two years ago for $99 at Harbor Freight. The engines have cast iron cylinder sleeves, low oil shut down, compression release for nice easy starting, always an easy one pull for me. Metal fuel tank with a filter so no dirt enters the tank when filling, a fuel shut off valve, (important so the carb doesn't get gummed up). Easy to hook up cable throttle linkage for the older units if you want to install the throttle cable. They are very easy to install, fit like a glove where my old Tecumseh H70, 7HP was on my 71 Ariens. These engine's also have higher grade aftermarket parts now for sale and upgrades for racing. I have seen nothing but people over joyed with these engines. Quality, easy to start, run excellent and have a much higher power ration than the original 7hp Tecumseh. The predator is also rated right around 6.5 to 7 hp (212cc) but I have it installed on my 32 wide 1971 Ariens and I literally have twice as much power and my machine throws snow 40+ feet now. The engine has so much torque it snapped the roll pin on the axle that hold the differential hub to the axle. Two years so far not one issue and my machine has never performed better ever. Here is my machine with the predator to get an idea. The predator really is a great engine, IMO as good if not better than the Chinese Briggs and they are 4x less. Don't get me wrong if I could afford one of those NOS 10HP Tecumseh engines selling on ebay, I would have bought it. Cant afford to pay $385 plus $45 shipping= $440. I can afford $99. The only thing I don't know yet is how long the engine lasts. I know the average lifespan of a Tecumseh is 40 years. Otherwise these Predators are unbelievable great runners at a price no one else can come near. My 1971 Ariens Sno-Thro 32 wide with Predator 212cc engine: 



Before engine upgrade with original Tecumseh that I pulled off and sold: 



The difference in power should be very clear.


----------



## LouC

Well how things have changed. I have a 1998 Toro 3000 GTS snow blower with the Suzuki 47P engine. Its been a very good machine, 19 years old and still going strong. I've had the normal issues with small engines, clogged carbs etc but nothing major. I was considering getting a newer 4 stroke single stage from Toro, but all their engines are Loncins made in China. I have not heard bad things about them asking a few power equipment shop owners. I guess if I want an American made single stage machine I have to buy a Honda! For now I'll try to keep the '98 Toro going. I do like that new Snowmaster though. More capable than a typical single but not as heavy as a true two stage.


----------



## sscotsman

*Major update!
January 20, 2017.
*
A seismic shift has occurred..we all expected this day would come, and now it has.

Before today, this was the state of the Snowblower industry:

Most of the "well known" brand names were still making their snowblower *bodies* in the USA, with engines made in China. (except for Toro, who moved to Mexico a few years back)
this included:

Snowblowers made in the USA, engines made in China:

All Ariens and Ariens Sno-Tek.
All Briggs & Stratton, Snapper, Simplicity, Brute, Murray.
Probably all Husquvarna/Poulan.
Probably all MTD, Cub Cadet, Troy-Bilt, Yard-machines, Yardman, most Craftsman.

Toro moved 2-stage snowblower production to Mexico in 2013.
Honda is a special case..update on that later.

But, as of today, we have now seen a change in the "Body made in the USA, engine made in China" story..

Briggs & Stratton snowblowers.

for the first time, January 2017, we have confirmation of a Briggs & Stratton branded snowblower that is 100% made in China.
both the snowblower body, and the engine.
The clear undeniable evidence is here:
http://www.snowblowerforum.com/foru...107425-new-snow-blower-1st-member-philly.html

This clearly happened over the past year, or more..
we just didn't know it until today.

(Pretty ironic coincidence, considering today's date and events. But that is all we need say on that, because it is genuinely just a coincidence.)

I will update this thread later with a new full update of "What is made where" for all brands.

Scot


----------



## sscotsman

*The state of "What is Made Where" for Snowblowers.
January 2017 edition.*

100% made in the USA snowblower, both the Snowblower itself and the engine:

Honda! (single-stage only)
Here is the update on Honda for 2016:



[email protected] said:


> If you want to add Honda:
> 
> • All Honda single-stage machines (3 models) are 100% manufactured (including the engine) at Honda's plant in Swepsonville, North Carolina.
> • Honda 2-stages machines (10 models) are also made there, but the engines are built at a Honda plant in Thailand.
> • All snow blowers built at the Honda plant in Swepsonville are further exported to Canada, Europe, and the U.K.
> • Honda single-stage snow blowers are the only ones sold in the USA that are 100% made in the USA
> • Honda snow engines are only available on a Honda snow blower. Honda does not sell their snow engines to any other manufacturer.



Snowblower body made in the USA, engine made in Thailand:

Honda 2-stage snowblowers.


Snowblower bodies still made in the USA, with engines made in China: 

All Ariens and Ariens Sno-Tek.
Probably all Husquvarna/Poulan.
Probably most MTD's. although this is not 100% certain: snowblower brands: MTD, Cub Cadet, Troy-Bilt, Yard-machines, Yardman, most Craftsman.


Some snowblower bodies made in the USA with engines made in China, and some models 100% made in China:


Briggs & Stratton brand names, Snapper, Simplicity, Brute, Murray and Briggs & Stratton brand names.
A 100% made in China Briggs snowblower was first spotted in 2017, details in post 224 of this thread.
To tell which is which, you will need to check the data tag on the snowblower itself (not the engine)
The data tag should say "Assembled in China" or "Assembled in the USA"


Snowblower body made in Mexico, Engine made in China:

Toro.
Toro moved 2-stage snowblower production to Mexico in 2013.



And below are the known brand names that are 100% made in China..these machines should be avoided at all costs! 
never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never 
never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never buy one of these:

Amico
Beast (Home Depot)
DEK (Sears)
Echelon
GXi Outdoor Power
Huskee
Jet Moto
Mansfield
Powerland
Power Smart
PowRcraft
Pow'R'kraft
Snow Beast (Home Depot)
Snow Joe
Stanley
Sunsay
Tao
Tao Tao
World Lawn
Visita
Yardmax
Yongkang
Yongkang Visita

There are probably more..
(many of those brands also make mowers and other products..I wouldnt buy anything made those brands)
never never never buy one of these! Here is some reading about the quality you can expect if you do:

http://www.snowblowerforum.com/foru...6058-new-stanley-36-commerical-two-stage.html

http://www.snowblowerforum.com/foru...orum/7586-36-inch-stanley-already-broken.html


Amazon customer reviews of a powerland model:







And Amazon customer reviews of Stanley model..there is ONE 5-star review, from the manufacturer! 
and four 1-star reviews, from actual owners of the machine:
http://tinyurl.com/luf2c24
(update, Amazon removed the 5-star review that was from the manufacturer! good for them..now only real customer reviews remain.)

Scot


----------



## Kiss4aFrog

I hate to bash but when I do I tend to use Stanley as the example. So much promised, so little delivered.
What drives me crazy is that for another 25-75 bucks in better materials they could produce a really nice blower but they seem to want to focus on the cheapest instead.


----------



## Hanky

Well you USA guys are lucky, here in Canada I do not know what we make if any thing.


----------



## GoBlowSnow

I think it's more of a "made in North America" type of thing now. Doesn't matter if it is made in Mexico, USA, or Canada. Just some good ol NA pride!


----------



## Hanky

GoBlowSnow said:


> I think it's more of a "made in North America" type of thing now. Doesn't matter if it is made in Mexico, USA, or Canada. Just some good ol NA pride!


I would think you are correct, at the time I bought my Toro I was told about Ariens being very good but could not locate a dealer with in 3 hrs. And a Toro dealer in town here was the big reason for Toro over the lesser brands.


----------



## Kiss4aFrog

Hanky said:


> Well you USA guys are lucky, here in Canada I do not know what we make if any thing.


 Hanky, you guys make the best lumberjacks !!


----------



## LouC

Hanky said:


> Well you USA guys are lucky, here in Canada I do not know what we make if any thing.


Well Bombardier mskes a lot of interesting stuff just no small engines....
They did make some cool sno cat style buses in the old days..


----------



## Hanky

Yes I have a Bomb ATV but they are now made south of your country. since 2008.


----------



## LouC

The Evinrude outboards are actually made in USA (Sturtvent Wisconsin)....


----------



## Erv

What company made the Snow Blower "Cub Cadet 265"? MTD Ariens???? or was it a true IH production?


----------



## sscotsman

Erv said:


> What company made the Snow Blower "Cub Cadet 265"? MTD Ariens???? or was it a true IH production?


There could be more than one Cub Cadet 265, but if its the same as this one:

http://www.snowblowerforum.com/foru...um/5850-international-cadet-265-problems.html

Then it's made by Ariens.

Im not 100% sure, but I dont believe that IH *ever* made their own walk-behind snowblowers..they were likely always farmed out to another manufacturer to build, then the Cub Cadet name was put on them. Ariens might have been the first to make Cub Cadet snowblowers, starting in the early 70's most likely. All the rest are most likely MTD.

IH probably did make the garden-tractor mounted snowblowers, to go with the Cub Cadet tractors.

Scot


----------



## chargin

All Power America ?
Appears to be older China junk. Maybe not made anymore, but still floating around as new equipment. Finding parts seems to be a problem.


----------



## sscotsman

chargin said:


> All Power America ?
> Appears to be older China junk. Maybe not made anymore, but still floating around as new equipment. Finding parts seems to be a problem.


Never heard of them, but I agree, looks like "older China junk"
The company appears to be defunct..the webpage is still up:

All Power America

But is hasn't been updated since 2014, all photos are dead, and all the links to the .pdf manuals are dead..
looks like the page was abandoned in place..

I will add them to the Chinese junk list..thanks for finding another one!

Scot


----------



## MassSnowblower

Made in the USA Snowblowers is all I collect! Cannot beat the quality. Here is one of my Ariens with the Leaf Vac attachment connected. Original 7 hp Tecumseh on the 1970 10,000 series unit.


----------



## sscotsman

*The state of "What is Made Where" for Snowblowers.
Autumn 2017 edition.*

*100% made in the USA snowblower, both the Snowblower itself and the engine:*

Honda! (single-stage only)
Here is the update on Honda for 2016:



[email protected] said:


> If you want to add Honda:
> 
> • All Honda single-stage machines (3 models) are 100% manufactured (including the engine) at Honda's plant in Swepsonville, North Carolina.
> • Honda 2-stages machines (10 models) are also made there, but the engines are built at a Honda plant in Thailand.
> • All snow blowers built at the Honda plant in Swepsonville are further exported to Canada, Europe, and the U.K.
> • Honda single-stage snow blowers are the only ones sold in the USA that are 100% made in the USA
> • Honda snow engines are only available on a Honda snow blower. Honda does not sell their snow engines to any other manufacturer.



*Snowblower body made in the USA, engine made in Thailand:*

Honda 2-stage snowblowers.


*Snowblower bodies still made in the USA, with engines made in China:* 

All Ariens and Ariens Sno-Tek.
Probably all Husquvarna/Poulan.
Probably most MTD's. although this is not 100% certain: snowblower brands: MTD, Cub Cadet, Troy-Bilt, Yard-machines, Yardman, most Craftsman.


*Some snowblower bodies made in the USA with engines made in China, and some models 100% made in China:*


Briggs & Stratton brand names, Snapper, Simplicity, Brute, Murray and Briggs & Stratton brand names. A 100% made in China Briggs snowblower was first spotted in 2017, details in post 224 of this thread. To tell which is which, you will need to check the data tag on the snowblower itself (not the engine) The data tag should say "Assembled in China" or "Assembled in the USA"


*Snowblower body made in Mexico, Engine made in China:*

Toro.
Toro moved 2-stage snowblower production to Mexico in 2013.


*Snowblower body made in China, Engine made in China:*

And below are the known brand names that are 100% made in China..these machines should be avoided at all costs! never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never buy one of these:

All Power
All Power America
Amico
Beast (Home Depot)
Bolton
Bolton Pro
Central Machinery (Harbor Freight)
DEK (Sears)
Echelon
Giovanni
GXi Outdoor Power
Huskee
Jet Moto
Mansfield
Powerland
Power Smart
PowRcraft
Pow'R'kraft
Snow Beast (Home Depot)
Snow Joe
Stanley
Steele Products (Sears)
Sunsay
Tao
Tao Tao
World Lawn
Visita
Yardmax
Yongkang
Yongkang Visita

There are probably more..
(many of those brands also make mowers and other products..I wouldnt buy anything made those brands)
never never never buy one of these! Here is some reading about the quality you can expect if you do:

http://www.snowblowerforum.com/foru...6058-new-stanley-36-commerical-two-stage.html

http://www.snowblowerforum.com/foru...orum/7586-36-inch-stanley-already-broken.html


Amazon customer reviews of a powerland model:







And Amazon customer reviews of Stanley model..there is ONE 5-star review, from the manufacturer! 
and four 1-star reviews, from actual owners of the machine:
http://tinyurl.com/luf2c24
(update, Amazon removed the 5-star review that was from the manufacturer! good for them..now only real customer reviews remain.)

"All Power" generators:
http://tinyurl.com/yb36bmh9


Scot


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## cranman

Thank God I'll never have to worry about buying new..........I will say though that the red Chinese Harbor Freight Honda clone I put on the ST 824 I picked up on the side of the road with a shattered connecting rod 15 years ago, is running strong and better then any Tecumseh I've played with.


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## unknown1

Too many messages to read this whole thread but here's my $0.02

Let's not ask WHERE it's made, let's ask HOW it's made (and whether the workforce &/or the planet is being exploited or not).

We can create junk in ANY country on ANY continent
We can also create high quality equipment in ANY country on ANY continent

There's a certain minimum education level and work ethic needed to get by on the shop floor but the bar is not too high for snowblowers.
I don't mean to insult snowblower technicians, I'm sure that they are passionate about their jobs if the CEOs would just let them get on with it.
However, I don't want the person who fixes my snowblower carburetors (me!!) fixing the engine in my Cessna unless they have some training and certification credibility.

The cost for labor may change and the respect for workers,intellectual property, patents and the planet may change, but there's nothing inherently better or worse in the available technologies in any one particular country versus any other (for basic engines and snowblowers).

It comes down to the CEO of the manufacturer setting a company-wide mandate to go for one quality extreme or the other or something in-between.

If you think that the products from country XYZ are necessarily always better or worse than the products from country PQR then I would have to disagree.
It's that way of thinking that caught Detroit off-guard and we all know what happened next.
It all comes down to the vision and mission of the companies involved in the design-manufacture-ship-sell-support chain and the specs and quality control used to enforce that. 

Some go for long-lasting, some go for a quick-buck, others shoot for the middle.
There's nothing inherently "difficult" about making snowblowers and snowblower-engines. They are fairly "basic" technologies. Heck, even I can fix them.

The safety implications of a total failure are almost non-existent when compared to (say) an aircraft or a nuclear-reactor.

Also.. it only takes one BAD CEO to totally destroy the reputation of a previously well-respected company.
Equally, it only takes one GOOD CEO to turn a low-quality company into a world leader... however he/she would probably need to change the brand name to escape the previous bad reputation.

Given the right investment and the right mission any country can do anything.... especially with low-tech machines such as snowblowers.
Whether they can turn a profit or not is a different question... it's a fairly small market compared to (say) smart-phones or cars.

$0.02


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## Ron in PA

stuart80112 said:


> Too many messages to read this whole thread but here's my $0.02
> 
> Let's not ask WHERE it's made, let's ask HOW it's made (and whether the workforce &/or the planet is being exploited or not).



Stuart, with all due respect, how about we DO ask where snowblowers are made. While I don't condemn anyone for buying foreign goods (it's almost unavoidable now), I do think it's good for U.S. consumers to at least attempt to buy American made if they can find a suitable product, and if they can afford to do so. It's a direct benefit to keeping jobs here and helping our economy. 

The second half of your statement (in parentheses) would make one think that you too should be concerned about where products are made. If you're really concerned whether or not "the planet is being exploited", then perhaps China should be the last place you chose to do business with (or the companies that operate there). 

The same goes for the exploitation of the people and workforce under a semi-communist (at best) government.

So yeah...maybe we should ask where things are made.

Just my .02.


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## unknown1

Ron in PA said:


> Stuart, with all due respect....


I take your point entirely. Thanks for the segue...

There are TWO distinct aspects to this 
a) Quality
b) Everything else 

My post was discussing the QUALITY side of the issue (and only that side). However, as you mentioned, I am deeply concerned about the "Everything else".
This is, after all, a snowblower forum so I censored my thoughts and just went with the quality meme. Thanks again for the segue...
In fact I am far more worried about "everything else"

From the QUALITY perspective:

There has been a long-standing meme which can be summarized as "All things from country XYZ are necessarily junk". I'm sure you've heard that and you know who XYZ is.
My point is simply that SOME things from country XYZ may have been junk in the past and may even be today.
However SOME things from country XYZ can be excellent if the companies involved make it so. 

To pick an example from a few decades ago... anything labelled as "Made in Japan" was often considered to be junk.
It apparently came as a big shock to Detroit when the likes of Honda, Subaru, Toyota, Yamaha, Sony etc totally reversed this meme.
In fact we almost have the opposite meme today which can be summarized as "Made in Japan" (or by Japanese companies) seems to imply high quality.
How the CEOs and CTOs in Detroit could allow that to happen is a mystery to me. It's hard to justify the 7 figure salaries and bonuses (in today's money) that they presumably made and carried into retirement while the city was left to rot.
Memes come and memes go. That's my point.

From the "Everything else" perspective..

Yes I am deeply concerned. My priorities are (probably in this order)
a) Exploiting and destroying the planet and its atmosphere and the eco-system
b) Disregard for Human Rights and a basic level of Democracy and freedom of expression.
c) Exploiting the workforce such that they have little option but to work 60 hours a week for a few bowls of rice or some other carbohydrate. ESPECIALLY (but not only) when children are involved. As a side effect, nobody can possibly compete against those labor prices. As the labor force in country ABC begins to wake up and ask for better conditions, the companies move to third-world country PQR and exploits them instead. Just follow the manufacture of (say) t-shirts as it drifts around the various third-world countries. We all know the Nike story too. The list is endless and changes whenever labor costs begin to creep up. This is only marginally preferable to slavery.
d) Disregard for Intellectual property and Patents
e) Probably much more if I stop and think about it

Bangladesh Work Conditions: http://www.npr.org/sections/paralle...whats-changed-for-bangladeshi-garment-workers
September 27, 2004 Wages... ( a little out of date but you get my point )
Full article: http://www.independent.org/publications/article.asp?id=1369









So we are in total agreement that there are distinct aspects to this and I am much more worried about "everything else" than I am about some low-tech engine and whether it's junk or not.

If this thread is intended to be about the socio-economic &/or geo-political &/or eco-system implications... then thank goodness someone actually cares!!

(Moderator note: Off-topic political opinions about health care, mining, and the president, were deleted here. - Scot)

So as you can see... yes I agree. However I am tired of the meme claiming that all things from country XYZ are NECESSARILY junk. 
It is not rational, it is not correct and it is embarrassing to hear. 
It's the same logical fallacy (or is it party-political brand-spin) that leads some voters to conclude that all things from prior President XYZ are necessarily junk! 

To leave on a slightly more upbeat note... and this is intended to be satire... I love the place and most of the people....honestly I do.... except the French of course! <joke!!>
Everything from Canada totally sucks... including Shania and Celine!! <joke!!> ;-)
Now.. where did I put that carburetor....


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## unknown1

Ron in PA said:


> Stuart, with all due respect..


A much better edited response with fact-checking URLS is now in place


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## sscotsman

Stuart,
I agree with you 90%..
but..you wandered too far over the edge there! 
I had to delete some of your post, because it was truly off-topic and went too far off into "left field" (hah! a pun) there..

Yes, when were are talking about manufacturing in China vs. the USA, of course politics is a major factor..
but..health care, mining safety, and anyone's personal opinion of Obama or Trump really isn't a factor.
we try to keep the political debates under control here, because it only leads to pointless arguments..
we get enough of political arguments elsewhere!  

So yes, politics is a part of this thread..but lets try to keep to the politics that is related to manufacturing, and not wander too far off topic..
thanks,
Scot


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## unknown1

sscotsman said:


> Stuart,
> I agree with you 90%....


As I said.. I self-censored in my initial post for that very reason and did not wish to waste my time going down that path especially in a forum simply discussing snowblowers.

However, the very title of the thread and the contents of the first post suggests that it is somehow important to distinguish between "Made in the USA" versus "Made in China" for some reason.
This begs the question why do you believe that to be important?
Only you know why you made the initial post and what you felt was important. I can only guess unless it is stated explicitly.
I've given you my list.. help me out and state your list so that I can understand your intent for the thread.


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## sscotsman

My intent for the thread was for people to be aware of what is made where.
Originally its main purpose was to track which snowblower models were 100% made in the USA, both the engine and the snowblower body. Now, that isnt even an optiion for 2-stage snowblowers anymore.

Now, I still consider "where things are made" for *all* snowblower brands to still be a helpful part of this list, even though we cant buy a 100% US-made 2-stage snowblower anymore, but now the larger goal, for me, is to help people *not* buy the ultra-cheap ultra-low quality 100% made in China brands. We have yet to see a decent quality machine in that catagory, all of them have horrible customer reviews, and horrible reviews in this forum. I want people to be educated about them, so they can avoid them.

So, those are the main goals of this thread..education about very large differences in quality. and "where it's made" is more important to some, less important to others..for the people who want to know, who make it a factor in their buying decisions, this thread also contains that information, and it gets updated as things change.

thanks,
Scot


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## unknown1

sscotsman said:


> My intent for the thread was for people to be aware of what is made where.
> Originally its main purpose was to track which snowblower models were 100% made in the USA, both the engine and the snowblower body. Now, that isnt even an optiion for 2-stage snowblowers anymore.
> 
> Now, I still consider "where things are made" for *all* snowblower brands to still be a helpful part of this list, even though we cant buy a 100% US-made 2-stage snowblower anymore, but now the larger goal, for me, is to help people *not* buy the ultra-cheap ultra-low quality 100% made in China brands. We have yet to see a decent quality machine in that catagory, all of them have horrible customer reviews, and horrible reviews in this forum. I want people to be educated about them, so they can avoid them.
> 
> So, those are the main goals of this thread..education about very large differences in quality. and "where it's made" is more important to some, less important to others..for the people who want to know, who make it a factor in their buying decisions, this thread also contains that information, and it gets updated as things change.
> 
> thanks,
> Scot


OK, so if I understand correctly, it's about WHERE snowblowers are made (in part or in whole) and any correlation between those locations and the QUALITY of the resulting machines. 
Is that fair?


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## sscotsman

stuart80112 said:


> OK, so if I understand correctly, it's about WHERE snowblowers are made (in part or in whole) and any correlation between those locations and the QUALITY of the resulting machines.
> Is that fair?


Yes, basically.
although the correlation is fuzzy..and grows fuzzier all the time.
We now know that the engines made in China and used on the "American brand" snowblowers (Ariens, Toro, MTD and Husquvarna) are excellent quality.
no problems with them at all..So its clearly not true that *any* engine made in China is poor quality.

But its still nearly universal that any of the "100% made in China" brands, where both the snowblower and the engine are both made in China, are overwhelmingly very poor quality, and ot even worth buying..some of them get one use before they are broken beyond repair.
So its still fair to say "never never never never never never buy one of these"

Will that change in the future? probably..with a small percentage of those Chinese brands, or new brands yet to appear..
but will there forever be these very low quality machines on the market that should be always be avoided? oh yes, im certain of it,
because people want their low-quality cheap junk..and China is happy to oblige.
the only way to avoid one of those: consumer education, which is my main goal for this thread.

Scot


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## unknown1

sscotsman said:


> Yes, basically.


OK.. I think I get it...

I think I got the intent of this thread right with my FIRST post speaking of quality (and ONLY quality). I intentionally self-censored the rest.
I think I was also right to try break the simplistic "China is necessarily Junk meme" because, as you say, SOME China engines are apparently excellent quality.
I think I was also right to point out that it's not so much WHERE something is made but HOW something is made and the philosophy of the companies operating in those locations.
I think I was also right to categorize all other issues as "Everything else"

I did ask "Is this thread about the geo-political , socio-economic & ecological implications of manufacturing snowblowers" (or words to that effect) ...but that got deleted.

In any case, if I continue to understand the intent of the thread as you stated, the answer to that is...NO!

That was not a at all clear to me because way back at the start of the thread, #2 and #3 were immediately off-topic using your clarification of intent. 
They both introduced the concept of "blame" which has nothing to do with the basic intent of the thread to discuss country-versus-implied-quality.
That's understandable if the intent was not made totally explicit.

In which case, observations or opinions about "Jobs in America" in #242 (although important in some other context) are also off-topic for this thread.
So that's the reply I should have given to Ron's reply. It's a pity there isn't a button that does that... Like, Thanks & Off-Topic

I think I get it now.

One final comment which is ON-TOPIC
If China (or more specifically, the companies operating in China) are capable of creating excellent quality engines (as you say they are)..
then it is only a matter of time before some company takes this a step further and also manufacturers excellent quality snowblower frames in China.
After all, it's not conceptually difficult to do. It's probably easier than getting the engines right.
The result will then be an excellent quality snowblower manufactured completely in China. 
They are already halfway there with (some of) the engines... the rest is not difficult.
If (or when) that happens, the meme will have been totally reversed (in much the same way that I pointed out for the Detroit-versus-Japan-quality meme).
"Japanese=junk" rapidly switched to "Japanese=excellent"
perhaps we will soon be saying..
"Chinese=Junk" has switched to "Chinese=Excellent"
Whether that makes us happy or not is irrelevant and off-topic. Better to find a forum discussing "Globalization and its impacts".

In hindsight, a better (forward-looking) title for the thread might have been "Country of Manufacturer versus Quality"
It would have helped me understand what it's about and would have remained relevant as countries come and go. ( Maybe Bangladesh?)
You weren't to know that if the only two players at that time were the USA (which was on the decline) and China (which was growing).

Thanks for helping me understand the intent of the thread.


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## Dauntae

Reading this discussion I feel I need to add my $.02 worth, Although companies such as Ariens and Toro as others DO have there engines made in China, They are made to the specifications and tolerances specified, As I work at a job that also has things made in China. If a lot of parts come, We do a quality check and measure a percentage of randomly chosen parts, If we find a lot are out of spec the entire lot will be rejected and sent back at the vendors cost and they eat the parts, Or so it would seem but in reality they still use the rejected parts but they are now being built into the fully chinese made snow blowers in this case, So they do make quality but the parts that do NOT meet the standards of the companies such as Ariens and Toro will be used in the Chinese made machines. They may work fine but there is far less quality built in and a LOT more slop between the parts so a lot more failures are found so in reality the all made Chinese blowers are indeed lower quality disposable machines even though they are made in the exact same machines in some cases as the higher quality parts used by Ariens and Toro. So it's not really so much as to where it was made but more of who has tighter quality controls in place and China has little to none if there is no chance of having hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of parts returned with shipping on them. In China they do NOT like to waste things that cost to make, So in stead of scrapping they are used and sold in these low quality machines we should NOT be buying as the thread states from the start.


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## unknown1

Dauntae said:


> Reading this discussion I feel I need to add my $.02 worth...


That is interesting data to have.

However, my question is this..
Are the "quality engines" (and their constituent parts) manufactured AND QC-inspected AND assembled in China or not?
If the answer is "yes they are" then, by definition, the ability to make the parts, to QC them and to assemble them is all currently being done in China to a high standard today.
In that case, the assertion that they have little to no ability to perform QC to a high standard is false (unless "little" includes the entire output for Ariens and Toro).

Do you agree with that logic?

In which case I reassert "it's not so much WHERE something is made but HOW something is made and the philosophy of the companies operating in those locations."


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## Dauntae

OH they DO have the ability and the tech to do it, But if 500 engines are returned they are NOT going to tear them down and inspect all parts to see which ones are bad, It is far more cost effective to rebrand them and use them on their own machines and sell them cheaper, Chinese labor is not as cheap as it once was and inspection can get costly, My company just had our plant manager and a few quality engineers go to china to inspect there production line and do a audit on there procedures. Yes it cost us more for the parts made the way we specify but is still cheaper than having them made by us and a lot of the things being made there where made in the very building I work in. So to answer your question it is nothing at all to do with the "ability" to do quality inspection, But that comes at a cost and the rejected quality will NOT be trashed, It will be used in a cheaply made machine that stringent quality checks are too costly to do by there standards of manufacturing. Thus Ariens pay more for their engines than the chinese made companies because the quality is indeed higher.


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## unknown1

Dauntae said:


> Thus Ariens pay more for their engines than the chinese made companies because the quality is indeed higher.


I never claimed that the high-quality engines which are being manufactured in China are as cheap as the ones which you say are using the rejected parts.

I said ""it's not so much WHERE something is made but HOW something is made and the philosophy of the companies operating in those locations."

So if Jim Blower starts a company located in China with a philosophy of "quality comes first", he can specify the specs, ensure that the parts he buys are ONLY the parts that meet those specs,
the QC will be done in China to Jim's specifications. He will then have the engines assembled in China with appropriate assembly quality control and he will have a high quality engine.
Next.. he can go to a snowblower frame manufacturer in China, define his specs, have the QC performed in China to accept only those frames that are high quality.
Jim can then put the quality engine on the quality frame (all done in China) and ship a snowblower which is high-quality and manufactured totally in China.

Where was it made? In China
How was it made? to a high specification with high QC standards
What was Jim's philosophy? "quality comes first"
How many will be rejected? NONE because they were all made in-spec and qc-checked by Jim Blower Inc in China

ie "it's not so much WHERE something is made but HOW something is made and the philosophy of the companies operating in those locations."

The fact that OTHER machines ALSO manufactured in China may be using discarded parts was never my point.

Going back to post #241
Given the right investment and the right mission any country can do anything.... especially with low-tech machines such as snowblowers.
Whether they can turn a profit or not is a different question... it's a fairly small market compared to (say) smart-phones or cars.
...and...
We can create junk in ANY country on ANY continent (perhaps by using rejected parts)
We can also create high quality equipment in ANY country on ANY continent (by Jim Blower Inc)


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## Dauntae

I never questioned anyones point including yours, and yes you are correct they CAN make a quality machine but it seems these all made chinese machines are created just to make money from parts or engines rejected from higher quality customers. So building high quality blowers to put low quality engines isnt smart, they are thriving on the disposable attitude many now have here. Hopefully they start making quality as you stated but they have no reasoning to do so, we just keep buying the junk and they keep making money from it.


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## unknown1

Dauntae said:


> I never questioned anyones point including yours, and yes you are correct they CAN make a quality machine but it seems these all made chinese machines are created just to make money from parts or engines rejected from higher quality customers. So building high quality blowers to put low quality engines isnt smart, they are thriving on the disposable attitude many now have here. Hopefully they start making quality as you stated but they have no reasoning to do so, we just keep buying the junk and they keep making money from it.


Fair enough.... but Jim Blower may be starting up even as we speak so watch out Detroit (or Tokyo)! 
The meme "China is necessarily junk" becomes "Some China is quite excellent" and the world leader is suddenly Jim Blower Inc from China!
Their reason for doing so would be "To become world leader and take over the market for quality snowblowers"
Goodbye Japanese brands and hello China.
By the way.. if Chinese labor gets too fussy... the current capitalist model just moves over to Bangladesh and does it there instead.
Jim Blower (International) Inc. 
By the way.. I'm not supporting that way of doing business from an ethical perspective... but I can't say that because it's off-topic. ;-)

That's all I was saying.

At the same time, SOME stuff from China will continue to be junk in the same way that SOME stuff from Japan is probably still junk today.

Also, I don't have the ability to fact-check if the "purely Chinese" models really ARE using discarded parts or not in all cases (or even any cases). I think I understand why you suspect that may be so, but I certainly cannot vouch for that. I'd hate to start that meme circulating.... "All Chinese machines use discarded parts". I'd need data to support that before I totally buy into it.


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## unknown1

Dauntae said:


> ......If a lot of parts come, We do a quality check and measure a percentage of randomly chosen parts, If we find a lot are out of spec the entire lot will be rejected and sent back at the vendors cost and they eat the parts........ parts that do NOT meet the standards of the companies such as Ariens and Toro will be used in the Chinese made machines....


The pursuit of data..

Just out of interest, if you don't mind saying, what company do you work for and what do you manufacture? No problem if you don't want to reveal that.
Also, what percentage of lots do you totally reject and send back to China? 1 lot in 10? , 1 lot in 100? , 1 lot in 1000? Maybe it's never actually happened yet? Can you share that?
Also, when you examine a "lot", what percentage of the individual parts do you check? 1% 10% 50% 100%

I guess I'm trying to get a handle on the overall qc failure rate of these parts (whatever they are)

If it's 50% overall then that raises some questions. It _might _suggest 50% are substandard and _may be _going into substandard lower-quality brands somewhere. On the other hand they may be being completely re-purposed into an area where quality doesn't matter so much... A bolt that fails aircraft standards can still be used legitimately to make a saw-horse. There's nothing flaky about doing that. In fact you may end up with a top-quality world-leading saw-horse.

It's perhaps ok to _suspect _that rejects might be going into cheapo-brand blowers (I would however question why I have that suspicion) but it's unfair for us to assert that as a fact (without data) or even to imply it as a probability. I really have no _*data *_and I'm hoping you might have given what you were saying. Do you know that for a fact?

If it's 0.0001% failure overall... then that's so small a fraction that the quality sounds pretty high to me. Maybe no-one really cares where the rejects end up. Throw them into the recycling bin, melt them down, re-purpose them to make saw-horses, donate them to habitat-for-humanity. Who cares? But please don't put them into my pacemaker.

After all, the failure rate can't be too bad or your company would have switched suppliers by now wouldn't it?

Also, when your QC folks went to do the audit in China... did they come back happy? If they did, that's good to know because it suggests that the procedures were just fine in China.
If they didn't.. was it bad enough to cancel the contract or was it just a few tweaks that needed to be made here or there? In that case all's well that ends well and quality goes up in China.
Although your company may not be manufacturing snowblowers, I can't tell, it can still reveal some truths or bust some myths about China (at least in your market).


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## guyl

Interesting discussion. I think that it comes down to the work culture in the country where something is made. Here we're talking snowblowers but I see the same discussions happening on other forums where production of the thing being discussed has largely moved to China. In my case I'm referring to pianos and woodworking machines. On the forums discussing these, the same debates are happening: The brand name stays the same but production has been moved to China. Of course the reason for the move is cost cutting and making snowblowers, pianos or table saws is labor intensive. However the work culture also comes in and this is where the imposition of strict standards by some of the companies has made a difference. Yamaha has moved some of it's piano production (of lower end models) to China with some success. Apple makes iPhones there too, seemingly without major issues. Of course, people in China *are* capable of making quality products, if they are closely monitored and standards imposed. It's a question of will, and going through the trouble of doing so. So for some time we might see these varying levels of quality, depending on how well the desired work culture is imposed. My own employer (we sell a sofware product) has moved support to India, and the biggest problem was with the local work culture. Very little testing, not following standards, saying "yes" just to please but not really doing things, etc. As a result some of the work has been moved back to North America.


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## unknown1

guyl said:


> Interesting discussion. I think that it comes down to the work culture in the country where something is made. ... As a result some of the work has been moved back to North America.


Uh oh... one of those darn Canadians! Yikes... Quebec! ;-) (love you really) I'm listening to Shania as we speak! (you'd have to see the last 3 lines of post #243 to get that joke)
Software? Pianos? Snowblowers?.. a polymath!

I agree 100% across the board. I too was in software and one of our CEOs also tried to outsource to India with the SAME results.. however, when our company realized the error a lot of our best minds had already quit... all in all it was needless expensive chaos. Of course, by then, he had moved on so never faced the consequences. C'mon CEOs ..need to do due diligence, don't just follow the CEO herd to please the bottom line. It can be false economy.. penny wise and pound foolish as we used to say back across the pond in Brexit-land. In our case, our software was high-science and algorithmic.. we can't treat that as a generic commodity and hand it to just any developer. I think that's key, some things easily lend themselves to chasing the lowest labor prices (T-shirts?).. others... (High-Tech?)..not so much. Am I creeping off into Globalization.. stop that!


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## guyl

Work culture isn't a nationality, geographical, race or religion thing: It's a mix of local history, past industries, etc thing. A low quality work culture can sometimes be overcome but it's not always easy, and is often hit or miss. Some factors leading to success can be instilling a sense of pride for working for that company, or side benefits directly related to measurable quality. Overcoming a traditionally low quality image for some types of products requires even more effort.

Currently I'm reading a very good book detailing the history of McDonald's and time and time again, the traditional low quality image of a "hamburger stand" stood in the way of expanding, getting loans, investors, etc. Overcoming the negative image required a lot of effort in standards of cleanliness, consistency and just being forthright (they pioneered the open kitchen). Maintaining the standards over independent franchisees required even more effort, and their unique method of selling franchising allowed the company to maintain a strict control over the franchisees.

The same mindset is needed to successfully outsource or move production to low wage countries, an effort which is not always exerted because of the time (and expense) required. In today's "immediate returns" investor mindset where a bad next quarter will get the person making decisions removed, patient and long term plans are becoming an exception.


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## unknown1

sscotsman said:


> *The state of "What is Made Where" for Snowblowers.
> Autumn 2017 edition.*
> *...*
> Scot


This is a spreadsheet view of Scott's data (see attachment at bottom of this post)
It's easier for me to get my head round it when I see a spreadsheet.
I used Scott's data from Here: http://www.snowblowerforum.com/forum/1266330-post239.html

It's still not 100% clear to me if the Bodies marked as USA are all the same. (a),(b),(c)....
a) Manufactured and built in USA (pulleys, belts, gears, metalwork etc manufactured in USA)
b) Manufactured parts from China but assembled in USA (pulleys, belts, gears, metalwork etc manufactured in China and flat-packed over to USA to reduce container space on ship)
c) Something else
If it's (b) or something close to it... there's potentially a lot more China under the hood than some of us thought (maybe).

According to Ariens website.. theirs are (a) Manufactured and built in USA
https://www.ariens.com/en-us

I have the same question for Toro's Mexico stuff (manufactured in Mexico? or assembled in Mexico?)

Also Yamaha isn't mentioned (only sold in Canada I'm told) (see #262 for those details)
Even though Yamaha is not on the list, they are VERY highly regarded so don't take their absence from the list the wrong way.
It's strange to me that they don't move into the US market when people rate them so highly... oh well.

Finally, I would imagine that there are different shades of quality on those double-yellow machines but I can't really imagine anyone here trying to get to the bottom of that question.
So for now at least... they are all lumped together as simply double-yellow 100% China (until the mythical Jim Blower appears on the scene and rocks the boat)

I don't think the Briggs & Stratton 100% China-made machine has been a game-changer. It seems to have the same lack of quality as the other double-yellows.
It's over here if you are interested...
Forum Member bought one (lots of pictures): http://www.snowblowerforum.com/forum/1160417-post1.html
Bad reviews eventually trickled in here (bogs down and gearbox explodes): https://www.amazon.com/product-reviews/B00YMMCP8W/ref=acr_dpx_hist_1?ie=UTF8&filterByStar=one_star&reviewerType=avp_only_reviews&showViewpoints=0

Excel Users can grab spreadsheet here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0J8tVzfnr5VdzN0dU9MSkowcWM/view?usp=sharing


----------



## YSHSfan

Yamaha is likely not included because it is not sold in US only in Canada. What I know about them is that all the older Yamaha and all the larger snowblower models are made in Japan, though I've seen some articles that state of a Yamaha snowblower plant in Canada which indicates that some blower were built or assembled there. This plant was later bought by Husqvarna and is where they started. The small model YT624 is made (or at least assembled) in China.


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## unknown1

Slightly off-topic

Honda using Thailand got me wondering.... why is that?
Historically Japan have not been the best of friends with China but is that the only reason?

Japan minimum HOURLY wage is $7.52 (USD) per hour using today's exchange rate
How many hours per day? 8? 10? If it's 8 we get $60.16 (USD) per day.
https://tradingeconomics.com/japan/minimum-wages

Thailand minimum DAILY wage is $9.17 (USD) per day using today's exchange rate
https://tradingeconomics.com/thailand/minimum-wages
So that's another potential reason for Honda going with Thailand

 China the numbers come in at $346 (USD) per month using today's exchange rate. 
How many work days in a month? 20? 24? not sure. If it's 20 then that's $17 (USD) per day (approx)
https://tradingeconomics.com/china/minimum-wages

Mexican minimum DAILY wage is $4.54 (USD) per day using today's exchange rate
That probably explains Toro too
https://tradingeconomics.com/mexico/minimum-wages

Of course, local cost of living and taxes makes a simple comparison non-trivial.
How these numbers affect a company's bottom line is even more complicated.
I'm not suggesting that Snowblowers only pay minimum wages either.
But they give some indication (to me at least) why things might be made where they are.
It all has to be taken with a grain (or a cup-full) of salt.
(I wish that website would standardize on hourly,daily,monthly wages... less arithmetic needed... I tried to go with daily rates because many countries seem to use that.)


----------



## sscotsman

stuart80112 said:


> Slightly off-topic
> 
> Honda using Thailand got me wondering.... why is that?
> Historically Japan have not been the best of friends with China but is that the reason?


That probably really is the main reason.
Not only do the two countrys not like each other on a national scale, Honda itself has good reasons for not wanting to deal with China.

We have all heard of "Honda clone" engines. That name is completely accurate. They are literally copies, clones, of Honda engines. Chinese companys take apart real Honda engines, then duplicate every part and mass-produce them..although usually not to the same quality standards of real Honda engines. 

These fakes are then sold by the millions around the world..you can get one at Harbor Freight right now for $99. (and on many ultra-cheap chinese snowblowers, mowers, etc) This (mostly) illegal cloning has cost Honda (and many other companys) millions of dollars in lost sales, and the Chinese do it with everything, siphoning away millions of dollars from the companys who spend decades, and their own money, on R&D to develop the original products, and also costing many jobs. China clones entire cars! In any other country this would be shut down, but the Chinese govt turns a blind eye to it, and lets it happen..because its good for for the chinese economy, at the expense of everyone else.

So yeah, all of this is almost certainly why Honda doesnt make engines in China.

This article is a decade old now, and its still happening:

Attack of the Clones: Chinese copies of the Honda CR-V

Scot


----------



## unknown1

sscotsman said:


> That probably really is the main reason.
> Scot


Yes the Intellectual property stuff is old news  Predators etc. I intentionally didn't go there to try to stay true to the thread's intent..
But I was wondering why Thailand? I think those minimum wages might suggest at least one answer.


----------



## unknown1

DELETED ....some hot keys seem to just post themselves when least expected ;-)
But while I'm here... I added Japan to those wage numbers.


----------



## unknown1

stuart80112 said:


> Yes the Intellectual property stuff is old news  Predators etc.
> But I was wondering why Thailand? I think those minimum wages might suggest at least one answer.


We don't want to drag this thread off into International trade wars and enforcing patents via embargoes etc.. So I won't ;-)


----------



## unknown1

*Bottom Line: Be cautious if buying 100% Chinese *
They show up as having a yellow color for both Engine and Body in this spreadsheet
Spreadsheet here:: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B0J8tVzfnr5VZnhaendJQWo1c0E


Most Recent Change to Spreadsheet:
Spreadsheet updated to include newly spotted Chinese machine AAVIX
AAVIX here:http://www.snowblowerforum.com/foru...-aavix-agt1424-208cc-2-stage.html#post1277905


----------



## unknown1

Ha! Interesting information here

I often hear that Yamaha make the best quality machines and people love them
I just heard they are made in China
Remember what I was saying about Joe Blower could totally change the meme "All 100% China is junk"
I think Joe just turned up
Wouldn't that be ironic

Not sure if they are talking about engines or the whole enchilada

Yamaha Snowblower Fan Club - Where are they made?


----------



## Kiss4aFrog

I think what a lot of us lose sight of is how much quality do you need ?? Not everyone needs or wants a Cadillac, Lincoln or Hummer. In real life I had a Lincoln TC and a Mark 8 but I also had a 3 cyl, 1000cc Geo Metro that was a blast to drive. No acceleration and almost no creature comforts but it was super on gas, comfortable, reliable (brand new) and luckily I bought it right before gas went to four bucks a gallon and THEN my co-workers who made fun of it were making me offers since they couldn't afford their 4X4s. 

The point is, I love my old heavy metal Craftsman, Ariens, JDs (non TRS) but I have a 24" Troy (MTD/China) that did the 300' gravel drive and parking area for a couple years when the rider died. Always started, no problems but is it the same quality as the older heavier guys, no way. It's not even ten years old yet and there are already parts I can't get. Could it eat a frozen newspaper and survive, maybe but I know the the old Craftsman Driftbreaker will as it has in the past.
Not everyone has a need or the $$$ for a tracked 1032 Honda. I think there should be some difference between the stuff from China that's been reported to have a higher failure rate and or no parts availability and just an inexpensive (cheap) machines that aren't built like a tank but have decent value for the dollar and are repairable. Better than a shovel and not disposable is what I'm getting at.


----------



## unknown1

Kiss4aFrog said:


> I think what a lot of us lose sight of is how much quality do you need ?? Not everyone needs or wants a Cadillac, Lincoln or Hummer. In real life I had a Lincoln TC and a Mark 8 but I also had a 3 cyl, 1000cc Geo Metro that was a blast to drive. No acceleration and almost no creature comforts but it was super on gas, comfortable, reliable (brand new) and luckily I bought it right before gas went to four bucks a gallon and THEN my co-workers who made fun of it were making me offers since they couldn't afford their 4X4s.
> 
> The point is, I love my old heavy metal Craftsman, Ariens, JDs (non TRS) but I have a 24" Troy (MTD/China) that did the 300' gravel drive and parking area for a couple years when the rider died. Always started, no problems but is it the same quality as the older heavier guys, no way. It's not even ten years old yet and there are already parts I can't get. Could it eat a frozen newspaper and survive, maybe but I know the the old Craftsman Driftbreaker will as it has in the past.
> Not everyone has a need or the $$$ for a tracked 1032 Honda. I think there should be some difference between the stuff from China that's been reported to have a higher failure rate and or no parts availability and just an inexpensive (cheap) machines that aren't built like a tank but have decent value for the dollar and are repairable. Better than a shovel and not disposable is what I'm getting at.


I'm with you all the way and I think you know that if you follow every thread that's out there.
I often try to scale down the MTD rhetoric and to be fair.

But this thread has reached some conclusions that 100% China means Junk
This Yamaha stuff (if it can be confirmed) demonstrates the possibility of "Joe Blower Inc" even being remotely possible
Do you know what I mean by Joe Blower?
It was an analogy I used several posts ago for the possibility that he could change the rules like happened in Detroit with cars
I think it's ironic if he was there all along but we missed him because Yamaha are only in Canada and (presumably) there wasn't a single Canadian member reading this entire thread
Why would they given the title of the thread? But I mentioned that in passing many weeks ago. No big deal.
At those prices it may be irrelevant from a practical perspective
We could still hold the position that "with the exception of Yamaha...all known 100% Chinese machines are believed to be junk"
Can you see why I think it's an important distinction or does it just sound like a ramble worrying about semantics to you? ;-)

EDIT: I also agree that if some 100% Chinese stuff is OK but not great. We should soften the rhetoric and just say "be very careful.. caveat emptor"
I'm not sure how we could tell which are OK and which are NOT-OK though


----------



## NigelScott

sscotsman said:


> *
> (Note! the post below is the state of the industry in January 2013.
> For the most recent update, Autumn 2017, click here.)*
> 
> I have been tracking this for a few years now..
> here is the update for 2013:
> 
> The State of Snowblower evolution, 2013 model year.
> 
> Tecumseh snowblower engines, up to 2008, were always made in the USA. Briggs & Stratton engines were made in the USA for the majority of its history. Around the year 2000 (perhaps earlier in the 90’s) Briggs began their smaller gas engines in China.
> 
> Up until 2008, probably 90% of snowblowers were 100% American-made, both the snowblower body, and the engine both. Tecumseh had the majority of the snowblower engine market before 2008, and Briggs was still making their larger engines in the USA. Only the smaller Briggs engines were made in China.
> 
> Tecumseh pulled out of the small gas engine business in 2008. 2009 was the last model year that snowblowers were commonly found with Tecumseh engines on them. (2009 model year were machines that went on sale in the Autumn of 2008)
> 
> Since 2008, Production of small gas engines has moved to China in a huge way.
> In 2008, perhaps 90% of snowblowers had American-made engines on them.
> Only 5 years later, in 2013, probably 90% have Chinese-made engines. And the percentage of American-made engines continues to drop. Soon it will likely be 100% Chinese engines on all snowblowers, lawnmowers, garden tractors, and anything with a small gas single-cylinder engine.
> 
> *Brand names with American-made snowblower bodies, and *some* American-made engines:*
> (the last remaining 100% made in the USA snowblowers)
> 
> *Ariens* - Three models remaining in the 2013 lineup with American-made Briggs engines:
> 12V Pro 32, Platinum 30, Deluxe 30.
> The rest of the models have Chinese engines.
> 
> Beginning this year, 2013 model year, "Made in the USA" stickers have appeared on engines of Ariens machines, which have the USA-made engines:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (im not sure if Ariens added the stickers, or if Briggs did.)
> But this is the first model year those stickers have been seen on those engines, a handy spotting feature!
> 
> *Snapper* - (made by Briggs & Stratton)
> Three models remaining in the 2013 lineup with American-made Briggs engines:
> M1529E, H1528E, H1730E.
> The rest of the models have Chinese engines.
> 
> *Simplicity* - (made by Briggs & Stratton)
> Four models remaining in the 2013 lineup with American-made Briggs engines:
> H1528E, H1730E, P1524E, P1728E.
> The rest of the models have Chinese engines.
> 
> The Briggs brands are using the old Simplicity and Murray designs for their snowblowers.
> Since 2005, the Briggs names have included Simplicity, Snapper, Murray, John Deere,
> and Brute. John Deere and Murray snowblowers are no longer being made. And Brute
> is 100% Chinese engines.
> 
> *Husqvarna* - The evolutionary successor to the old AYP snowblower line.
> One model remaining with an American-made Briggs engine.
> 14527E
> The rest of the models have Chinese engines.
> Husqvarna also makes Polan snowblowers, Poulan has 100% Chinese engines.
> 
> 
> That makes Eleven total snowblower models in 2013, from three manufacturers (Ariens, Briggs and Husqvarna) that are still 100% American made, both the snowblower, and the engine both. And the percentage drops every year. Soon it is likely we will have all Chinese engines on all snowblowers.
> 
> 
> *Brand names with American-made snowblower bodies, and all Chinese-made engines, (as of 2013)
> *
> *MTD brands* (Cub Cadet, Troy-Bilt, Yard Machines, most Craftsman) - all Chinese engines. (starting in 2012)
> 
> *Toro* - All Chinese Engines. (starting in 2013)
> 
> 
> *Brand names that are 100% made in China:*
> In addition to Chinese engines on American-made snowblowers, we are now also seeing 100% Chinese made snowblowers, both the snowblower body, and the engine both. The following brands are known to be 100% Chinese built:
> 
> Stanley
> World Lawn
> Snow Beast
> Huskee
> Powerland
> Snow Joe
> 
> The 100% American made snowblower (and lawnmower, and riding mower, and garden tractor) is fading fast..get them while you still can!
> 
> Which engines are the remaining American-made engines? Only three US-made snowblower engines remain:
> 
> Briggs & Stratton 305cc 1450 Series
> Briggs & Stratton 342cc 1550 Series
> Briggs & Stratton 342cc 1650 Series.
> 
> ALL other snowblower engines, including all Briggs engines except those three models, are made in China..(the exception being perhaps Honda snowblowers, who perhaps still makes some Honda engines in Japan, and China as well.)
> 
> But there are definitely only three remaining US-made engines.
> (source for that info is “Snowmann” on the forums, who is known to work for Ariens,
> He posted that info about the Briggs engines a few years ago.)
> 
> Other sources: Ariens 2013 brochure, Toro 2013 brochure, Cub Cadet brochure, other MTD brand webpages, Briggs & Stratton brand (Simplicity, Snapper) webpages, Husqvarna webpage.
> 
> Disclaimer 1 - yes, I know..someone will bring it up!  I am aware that when I say “100% American-made snowblower, both the snowblower body and engine both” that is not *literally* 100% true! Because some *parts* are made overseas..The American-made Briggs engine likely has parts made in China inside of it, and perhaps the “Made in America” snowblowers do as well! But im not concerned about that.
> This is my criteria:
> If its made in a factory on US soil, by US workers, then im calling it “Made in the USA”
> If its made in a factory on Chinese soil, by Chinese workers, then im calling it “Made in China”
> Im not concerned with the exact origin of every last nut and bolt.
> 
> Disclaimer 2 - the above information is likely incomplete! Especially the “100% made in China snowblower” data..there are probably several brand names I am missing. Also, The above list primarily focuses on 2-stage snowblowers, because it is believed that 100% of Single-Stage snowblower engines are made in China, and have been for some time.
> 
> If anyone has any corrections or additions to this list, please let me know!
> I have been tracking snowblower evolution since 2009, (and all the way back to 1960! With my Ariens webpage) and I will try to update this list every January.
> 
> Thanks,
> Scot


Hi Scot. Do you know which Chinese factory makes the Snow Joe/Sun Joe machines?
Scott (with 2 T's)


----------



## sscotsman

Hi Scott,
I dont know of any way to find that out..
Most of these companys want to hide the fact that their products are even made in China at all!  if you go to snowjoe.com you can see the company has a mailing address in New Jersey, but thats it..I doubt you could even find the word "China" anywhere on their website..

So finding the exact factory is probably next to impossible. That information just isnt publicly available..

Scot


----------



## Snowbelt_subie

the only thing that i wonder about are these Chinese Honda clone engines. it seems like they are set so lean from the factory that i am guessing most will surge within a year or 2 due to just breaking the engine in and needing more fuel or due to dirt and a tiny blockage is all it takes.

heck i have a toro 621e with a 4 stroke Chinese engine that will only run on half choke. The guy a bought it off of said it was like that since new when he bought it.

also toro snowmasters are starting to pop up surging already.


----------



## jsup

Snowbelt_subie said:


> the only thing that i wonder about are these Chinese Honda clone engines. it seems like they are set so lean from the factory that i am guessing most will surge within a year or 2 due to just breaking the engine in and needing more fuel or due to dirt and a tiny blockage is all it takes.
> 
> heck i have a toro 621e with a 4 stroke Chinese engine that will only run on half choke. The guy a bought it off of said it was like that since new when he bought it.
> 
> also toro snowmasters are starting to pop up surging already.


This is a good thread. 

I think that lean running may be a regulatory issue. I'd love to know what the AFR is on this. 15? 16? 17? I'd love to put a wide band on it and see.


----------



## Lunta

stuart80112 said:


> but we missed him because Yamaha are only in Canada and (presumably) there wasn't a single Canadian member reading this entire thread


Don't forget the other countries in the world  E.g. plenty of Yamahas up here in the Nordics and at least two ( : ) ) forum members from this area.


----------



## FearlessFront

Snowbelt_subie said:


> the only thing that i wonder about are these Chinese Honda clone engines. it seems like they are set so lean from the factory that i am guessing most will surge within a year or 2 due to just breaking the engine in and needing more fuel or due to dirt and a tiny blockage is all it takes.
> 
> heck i have a toro 621e with a 4 stroke Chinese engine that will only run on half choke. The guy a bought it off of said it was like that since new when he bought it.
> 
> also toro snowmasters are starting to pop up surging already.


The Predators run lean when they are in cold winter air. You can simply run the engine with the choke slightly on and it will smooth it out and run fine.
The stock main jet on these engine's is .028. For $3 dollars you can buy a main jet size .030 and replace it in the carburetor, that will fix the lean issue and it will run perfect without any choke. Very easy to change. 
Also the best thing of all is, they offer an adjustable main jet for these engine's, which is unheard of on modern engines built today, you cant even get an adjustable main jet for a new Briggs engine.
With the adjustable main jet you can adjust the Predator engine to run perfect at any temperature and altitude and that is great because my Ariens is used as a snowblower in the winter and than I put the rotary mower attachment on in the spring and run it as a mower Spring, Summer and Fall, so the adjustable main jet is perfect for my application.
These engines go on sale for as low as $94.99 plus tax. That is the cheapest I have ever seen it. I purchased both mine for $99.99 plus tax. $107 total. The adjustable main jet is $9 bucks. I ordered two for both of my engine's for both of my Ariens and they are great. All in $118 per engine and these engine's work fantastic. I have had the one 3 years now and use that snowblower commercially. I run that engine at 4500 rpm. I have not had one issue in 3 years. These engines are capable of running at higher rpms than most typical engines that are not supposed to be set over 3600 rpm, so that makes them much more powerful. So these engines are sold at the best prices out their, they are quality built engines that are reliable and have a lot of power and you can get an adjustable main jet for the carburetor on them. That is unheard of. These engine have already proven to be just as good, if not better than the new OHV Briggs. I had one of those OHV Briggs and I did not like the way it ran. On top of that the carburetors on those Briggs engines are made of a very cheap porous material. If you forget to drain the gas out of a Briggs carb it does not just clog up the jets. The fuel breaks down the metal the bowl is made out of and breaks it down into a fine powdery talcum powder and really does some serious damage. The Briggs OHV I had was a 2001 so it was made in the USA.
Like one of the gentleman above said, he hit it on the head, any country is capable of making junk or quality. Well these Predator engine's that are made in China are made of good quality. Two manufacturers make them Loncin and Rato. The Loncin ones are the hemi Predators, those ones are capable of even more power than the non hemi, Loncin makes the engines for the Toro snowblowers now. Yet both the Loncin and Rato Predators are excellent engine's. This is coming from someone who does commercial snow removal and uses those engines hard and the one is on its third year now (the rato non hemi), no issues and than works as a mower the rest of the year. 
These engines are also now the widely accepted engines in the racing world, go-karts mini bikes etc. They sell every part for these engines upgraded. Billit flywheels and connecting rods, heavier duty camshafts, headers, performance carbs such as tillitson for these engine's. Heavier duty valves and valves springs and the list goes on. They are able to remove the governor and run these engine at around 6500 rpm with the performance parts, thats whats going on in the racing world with these engine's now. All the stock parts are readily available on ebay cheap. You can get an entire replacement carb for one of these engines as low as $9.50 free shipping. Well I think I've explained enough about the quality and dependability of the Predator.


----------



## Coby7

If you read carefully this really means assembled in the USA.
I don't know what percentage is necessary to say Manufactured in the USA.


----------



## tadawson

Anyone ever read the book "Poorly made in China"? It's by a guy that worked with Chinese factories for years, and all the games they play, with one of the most notorious being downgrading materials silently to increase profits (while simultaneously stealing the technology and producing knockoffs . . . though that is hard to athom when the product is already a knockoff . . . ) . . . . If the company having stuff built complains, they either force a massive price increase, or are told to live with it, since it is almost impossible for a US entity to prevail in a Chinese court. Quality may be good now, but seems more like a "when" than an "if" when it slides or price rises . . . . I suggest that anyone here read it . . .


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## Dauntae

The Chinese are NOT in that much control, My job deals with a lot of chinese iems and if there quality is NOT what was agreed on they get the entire shipment returned and payment stopped. If they don't want to stay with the agreement and quality level agreed upon, There competing chinese company will.


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## tadawson

And you suffer in the meantime, since a new factory cannot spin up in minutes, and you have no product. . . . They've got you, you just can't admit it . . . Read the book, I think you will recognize a lot . . . and yes, I'd love to think things are getting better, but with the monopolies created by Chinese dumping, if anything, I would expect things to be worse . . .


----------



## Dauntae

And who said the company is dumb enough to only have ONE supplier, We have a few and 2 in china and the one we use the most we have engineers sent over pretty often to make sure they are running our parts to our standard. We are a huge customer and to lose us would be bad for them, Go have fun with your book, It must be a law everyone follows the book, Just like FB. It's on FB it must be real right???


----------



## jsup

Coby7 said:


> If you read carefully this really means assembled in the USA.
> I don't know what percentage is necessary to say Manufactured in the USA.


If a certain percentage of a product is ASSEMBLED in the USA, it can be considered MADE IN USA, even if all the parts are made in China. 

I forget what that exact percentage is.


----------



## jsup

Dauntae said:


> The Chinese are NOT in that much control, My job deals with a lot of chinese iems and if there quality is NOT what was agreed on they get the entire shipment returned and payment stopped. If they don't want to stay with the agreement and quality level agreed upon, There competing chinese company will.


Yes, exactly. I did exactly that this year. Sent it back, told them to correct the problem, and make it to spec. 

It's good to have a QC guy on the ground in China to keep the factory in check.


----------



## tadawson

Dauntae said:


> And who said the company is dumb enough to only have ONE supplier, We have a few and 2 in china and the one we use the most we have engineers sent over pretty often to make sure they are running our parts to our standard. We are a huge customer and to lose us would be bad for them, Go have fun with your book, It must be a law everyone follows the book, Just like FB. It's on FB it must be real right???


Nope, not Facebook. A real, credible, author. If you have not read it, you cannot comment without just spewing nonsense . . . . and perhaps what is described is the very reason you dual source . . . your management knows the risks

http://www.economist.com/node/13642306


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## tadawson

jsup said:


> Yes, exactly. I did exactly that this year. Sent it back, told them to correct the problem, and make it to spec.
> 
> It's good to have a QC guy on the ground in China to keep the factory in check.


And the day they tell you they will do that for just $x.xx more per part or pound sand (as has happened frequently with Chinese mfgs.) you do what, exactly?


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## Dauntae

My comment has nothing todo with that book, just that we have things made in China and made to our standards or they lose buisiness, and if any company only has just one source for anything, they are run by fools, not just on a quality aspect but what if there was a fire, or a machine explodes, should we not sell because they can’t deliver, no we buy from a different source and keep our products selling. Only a fool only has one source for any resource. And having more than one keeps the most purchased from making higher quality because they do not want to lose money either.


----------



## jsup

tadawson said:


> And the day they tell you they will do that for just $x.xx more per part or pound sand (as has happened frequently with Chinese mfgs.) you do what, exactly?


How frequently has it happened? To who? Do you have a situation that you can point to?

Have the next factory lined up. That's the beautiful thing about capitalism. 

Relationships, it's all about relationships, even in China. Any factory can do that regardless of their location.


----------



## tadawson

jsup said:


> How frequently has it happened? To who? Do you have a situation that you can point to?
> 
> Have the next factory lined up. That's the beautiful thing about capitalism.
> 
> Relationships, it's all about relationships, even in China. Any factory can do that regardless of their location.


Read the book! 

The author worked in China working relationships between Chinese and US companies, and it is his factual account of seeing these activities over and over and over . . . . (and no, I'm not trying to sell a book, but it's the best first hand account of these practices I have seen, and has not (and likely cannot) be disputed, since all was documented first hand by the writer.)

And yes, any factory *could* do that, but the Chinese do it with impunity, since they have the Chinese government and courts making them virtually untouchable, unlike using a supplier elsewhere where getting a contract enforced or penalties awarded would actually be possible.


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## Cardo111

That article in The Economist was interesting (thanks for posting it), what concerns me most is the lack of universal quality/safety standards. The fact that companies can pick and choose who certifies their products. I would hate to see more toxic children's toys hurt the innocent for the sake of profit and we all know this has happened.


----------



## NJHonda

Snowbelt_subie said:


> the only thing that i wonder about are these Chinese Honda clone engines. it seems like they are set so lean from the factory that i am guessing most will surge within a year or 2 due to just breaking the engine in and needing more fuel or due to dirt and a tiny blockage is all it takes.
> 
> heck i have a toro 621e with a 4 stroke Chinese engine that will only run on half choke. The guy a bought it off of said it was like that since new when he bought it.
> 
> also toro snowmasters are starting to pop up surging already.


Not my Toro Snowmaster. One pull on the first start of the season, and purrs like a kitten. VERY happy with my China Honda knockoff actually. Never thought I would be..and did not want to be... but I am


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## Cardo111

Those Loncin engines are supposed to be very solid. My one peave with them and I am more retentive than most is their side mounted oil drain tubes.


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## jsup

Cardo111 said:


> That article in The Economist was interesting (thanks for posting it), what concerns me most is the lack of universal quality/safety standards. The fact that companies can pick and choose who certifies their products. I would hate to see more toxic children's toys hurt the innocent for the sake of profit and we all know this has happened.


What post is this article, because it's not what I witness, it doesn't sound right.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I am saying it is the exception, not the rules. Factories will cut corners wherever they can, it's up to the contracting company to make sure it's right.


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## sscotsman

jsup said:


> What post is this article, because it's not what I witness, it doesn't sound right.


Post #285.

Scot


----------



## jsup

sscotsman said:


> Post #285.
> 
> Scot


Thanks.....

And sigh....... I don't know where to start. The article is more of an endless list of clichés than it is based in reason and fact. Honestly, I'm not impressed. 

The only fact they got right is the problem with knock offs. But ya know what, that's going to be a problem if you have a good product, and don't patent it in every country around the world. And even then, try to enforce it. It's just the nature of manufacturing.

What we did in one situation was had the circuit boards made in China, and had the software put on them in the USA to avoid just this situation. 

Second, China is losing its grip on being the "world's sweat shop". Packistan, India, and Milaysia are quickly becoming more involved in manufacturing, ESPECIALLY in textile (India) or Woodworking or Tech (Milysia).

For example, Fender is building guitars in Milaysia that rival some of the best ones made in the USA at a fraction of the price. A Milaysian Fender would sell for $600, would be a $2000 guitar made in the USA.

When I sell to companies, let's use an example like COKE. They require that one of THEIR people go to the factory and do inspections specifically looking for human rights violations. THEY do the inspection and they don't tell you when. All, and I mean EVERY, large company does this. It's not what it used to be 

The date on that article puts it at almost 10 years old. A LOT of things have changed in the past 5 years, never mind the past 10. 

And let's not be hypocrites. Everyone wants made in America, 100%, until they step up to the cash register. That's where everyone's pockets get real deep, and their arms get real short. They reach for the cheapest thing that will do the job. So who ya gonna blame for that?


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## AriensPro1128

jsup. more than 100 years ago henry ford started paying his employees far in excess of what they could earn elsewhere because he knew if he wanted to sell them his product they had to earn enough to pay for the automobiles. i'm a baby boomer and paid $1,400 for a new 1989 ariens snow blower. that amount was the going price. it wasn't until the 1990s that all of the cheap chinese goods hit the retail stores over here and put many americans out of work. i recently read what i consider a very ironic statement. why will american companies hire more workers. there is no one to purchase the additional product.


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## jsup

AriensPro1128 said:


> jsup. more than 100 years ago henry ford started paying his employees far in excess of what they could earn elsewhere because he knew if he wanted to sell them his product they had to earn enough to pay for the automobiles. i'm a baby boomer and paid $1,400 for a new 1989 ariens snow blower. that amount was the going price. it wasn't until the 1990s that all of the cheap chinese goods hit the retail stores over here and put many americans out of work. i recently read what i consider a very ironic statement. why will american companies hire more workers. there is no one to purchase the additional product.


I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just giving the reality of the situation, and you seem to agree with that. 

Everyone is a patriot until they reach into their pocket. Then, it's all about the Bengimans. 

Look, let's take me for example. There are ZERO factories in the USA that make some of the products I sell. So what's my option? Not sell it? Even if it pays my mortgage? It's easy to tell someone "just go sell something else you can make in the USA, but that's just a flippant statement made by an ignoramus.

For another product that I TRIED to get made in the USA, the price USA manufacturers were giving me was near the upper retail price that anyone would pay for the product. If you sell a product for $10, you get to keep it for $20. Nothing personal with USA contract factories, they act like they're the only ones allowed to make money in a deal. Especially when they are the FURTHEREST from the customer. Reality is, the person closest to the customer makes the most money.

Now, I make NOTHING in the USA because either there are no factories, or it's price prohibitive, as described above. 

However, I have my products shipped over, that keeps long shore man employed. Once it hits the docks, I have to have truckers move it to my warehouse. Because manufacturing isn't local, I can't do just in time, I have to keep more inventory than I need, that's business for my warehouse. I go to trade shows, I did four this year, pumping about $50,000 into the economy. Restaurants, the venue people, etc... and I'm a small company. I can't do that without china.

And finally the retailers that sell my stuff, stuff that wouldn't be made if it had to be made here, make money on it. 

There's a lot more that goes into the economy than just manufacturing.


----------



## jsup

One more thought. Something I always found entertaining to watch people go nuts about:


Toyota builds a plant in the USA...... OH NO IT'S THE END OF THE WORLD!!! THEY AREN'T UNION AND THE MONEY IS GOING TO JAPAN HOW CAN WE ALLOW THIS TO HAPPEN!!!

GM Builds a plant in China......same people......OH NO IT'S THE END OF THE WORLD!!! THEY AREN'T UNION AND THE JOBS ARE GOING TO CHINA HOW CAN WE ALLOW THIS TO HAPPEN!!!



A lot of people have a very simplistic view of economics, and rather have a bumper sticker cause, than a real understanding of the issues.


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## Cardo111

jsup said:


> One more thought. Something I always found entertaining to watch people go nuts about:
> 
> 
> Toyota builds a plant in the USA...... OH NO IT'S THE END OF THE WORLD!!! THEY AREN'T UNION AND THE MONEY IS GOING TO JAPAN HOW CAN WE ALLOW THIS TO HAPPEN!!!
> 
> GM Builds a plant in China......same people......OH NO IT'S THE END OF THE WORLD!!! THEY AREN'T UNION AND THE JOBS ARE GOING TO CHINA HOW CAN WE ALLOW THIS TO HAPPEN!!!
> 
> 
> 
> A lot of people have a very simplistic view of economics, and rather have a bumper sticker cause, than a real understanding of the issues.



I think the majority if Americans are not really complaining about Toyota or its higher end nameplate Lexus creating U.S. jobs.

Of course the shrinking UAW and American workers would prefer to have a job with good benefits, job security and a pension. We know that to remain competitive in today's economy the good 'ol days are long gone. I don't disagree with you regarding Americans wanting a good deal, to accumulate more stuff. We have become accustomed to our dollar going further than it did prior to the '90's as another member stated he paid nearly $1500. for an Ariens machine in the '80's. Look at flat screen TV's I am old enough to remember the first small plasma TV's going for about $12,000. at Costco. We all benefit from economies of scale. You will now get a bigger and better picture from a $300. Vizio. The TV repairman is now a dying breed it is cheaper to replace or upgrade than to fix in most cases. Many will feel the same about some of tge snowblowers being sold today. I know we discussed this in previous threads and I agree that lower end MTD's of today do serve a purpose and a market. We now live in a disposable world, companies don't want to build a product that lasts forever anymore, it's not good business, therefore planned obscelesence. Apple has been exposed for slowing down their older products so consimers will upgrade to their new products. I don't think I have ever owned an Apple accessory that outlasted its 1 year warranty by more than a couple of months i.e. headsets or chargers they are masters of what I mentioned above. However I am generally a big fan of the designs and functionality of their products.

To try to keep the topic inline with this forum, I am not convinced that China made products are of equal quality, though they have improved. I don't think anyone would argue that the quality of the steel that Ariens used on their '60's and '70's machines was likely heavier gauge and better quality than what they are using today. Snowblowers have not changed that much more bells and whistles: heated hand grips, electric chute controls, slightly tighter tolerances in housing design. However the consumer has not benefited from economies of scale as we have with electronics. With snowblowers build quality has diminished along with the cheaper prices relative to what they cost when they were fully made in the U.S.A.. Perhaps some small engine mechanics on this forum can weigh in on whether these newer china built clone engines are as good or better than the older U.S. built Briggs or Tecumseh engines, or if some data on mean time between failure can be obtained to make a true comparison in reliability, likely too early to tell for sure.

Regarding GM's factory in China it will be interesting to see how this plays out, they're definitely taking a risk. In all fairness to Hyundai they did a 180 over the last 10 years their cars were among the least reliable vehicles with the worst resale value and now the South Koreans are churning out a quality product. I am also a fan of Kumho tire. Interesting topic that can be debated for years to come.


----------



## jsup

Cardo111 said:


> I think the majority if Americans are not really complaining about Toyota or its higher end nameplate Lexus creating U.S. jobs.


It was just an example about what has been said, by the "same" people. I guess I used a dated example. My bad.



> Of course the shrinking UAW and American workers would prefer to have a job with good benefits, job security and a pension.


Actually, the non union shops have voted NO on a union every time it came up, because they were getting paid more and had great benefits. As far as the pension goes, they are like unions, a relic of a bygone era that is no longer sustainable. Pensions are killing many companies, and states because they are based NOT on what a person saves, but how long they worked. 

I'd prefer a job that I can go in when I felt, do what I want, and pays me $1million a year for life, top shelf health benefits but reality says differently. 




> We know that to remain competitive in today's economy the good 'ol days are long gone. I don't disagree with you regarding Americans wanting a good deal, to accumulate more stuff. We have become accustomed to our dollar going further than it did prior to the '90's as another member stated he paid nearly $1500. for an Ariens machine in the '80's. Look at flat screen TV's I am old enough to remember the first small plasma TV's going for about $12,000. at Costco. We all benefit from economies of scale.
> You will now get a bigger and better picture from a $300. Vizio. The TV repairman is now a dying breed it is cheaper to replace or upgrade than to fix in most cases. Many will feel the same about some of tge snowblowers being sold today. I know we discussed this in previous threads and I agree that lower end MTD's of today do serve a purpose and a market. We now live in a disposable world, companies don't want to build a product that lasts forever anymore, it's not good business, therefore planned obscelesence. Apple has been exposed for slowing down their older products so consimers will upgrade to their new products. I don't think I have ever owned an Apple accessory that outlasted its 1 year warranty by more than a couple of months i.e. headsets or chargers they are masters of what I mentioned above. However I am generally a big fan of the designs and functionality of their products.


I agree with all of that. Funny, I was in tech, video conferencing when it was in its infancy, and we sold plasmas, Pioneer 42 inch to be exact, for $15,000 at the time. 

I make products that will last years, where the typical "run of the mill" version lasts days, maybe weeks. I believe in making a quality product at a fair price. A very small portion of the purchasing public will pay for it. 

I despise Apple. So...



> To try to keep the topic inline with this forum, I am not convinced that China made products are of equal quality, though they have improved.


You can get any quality product you want made in China. Every TV, every computer, every I-Phone is made in china, and people will argue that many are of "superb quality".



> I don't think anyone would argue that the quality of the steel that Ariens used on their '60's and '70's machines was likely heavier gauge and better quality than what they are using today.


By quality I guess you're speaking to the thickness, and weight, not the chemical composition. Engineers are funny people, they always want to build the best. The biggest, baddest, fastest, whatever. Accountants make them build to a number that the product can be sold at a profit. Is thicker always "better"? IDK. I use local landmarks as an example. Look at the Polaski Skyway (google a picture) vs. the George Washington Bridge. The GWB looks flimsy by comparison, but that's because of engineering advances. 



> Snowblowers have not changed that much more bells and whistles: heated hand grips, electric chute controls, slightly tighter tolerances in housing design. However the consumer has not benefited from economies of scale as we have with electronics. With snowblowers build quality has diminished along with the cheaper prices relative to what they cost when they were fully made in the U.S.A.. Perhaps some small engine mechanics on this forum can weigh in on whether these newer china built clone engines are as good or better than the older U.S. built Briggs or Tecumseh engines, or if some data on mean time between failure can be obtained to make a true comparison in reliability, likely too early to tell for sure.


I think there's enough evidence on the china engines to make that call, especially if you consider the combined "work hours", but it's still anecdotal.

It's funny, these things are direct knockoffs of a Honda. So much to the point that the INTERNAL parts are interchangeable. Slap a Honda label on it, and people fall to their knees to worship it, take the label off and it's "questionable Chinese junk" . 

MTBF would be interesting to see, on both older briggs and new clones. 



> Regarding GM's factory in China it will be interesting to see how this plays out, they're definitely taking a risk. In all fairness to Hyundai they did a 180 over the last 10 years their cars were among the least reliable vehicles with the worst resale value and now the South Koreans are churning out a quality product. I am also a fan of Kumho tire. Interesting topic that can be debated for years to come.


I don't know if you remember. A few years back, maybe a decade or so, Hyundai said "we're going to compete with Honda and Toyota in five years". People laughed. Who's laughing now? My daughter drives a Sonata, she's 17. She LOVES the car, and to be honest, it's not a bad vehicle. They are, however, awfully proud of their parts. They aren't cheap.


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## Money_man

We need companies with pensions or we need better education in school on how to make sure you can survive when you retire. A pension becomes a pretty big deal after a while and I would personally take a couple dollar pay cut if it meant a pension.


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## jsup

Money_man said:


> We need companies with pensions or we need better education in school on how to make sure you can survive when you retire. A pension becomes a pretty big deal after a while and I would personally take a couple dollar pay cut if it meant a pension.


Pensions are not sustainable. There's a lot of examples out there. You can't get somethin for nuthin. The best solution is you get back what you put in. If you put nothing in, that's your problem. As a taxpayer I'm paying for SS I'll never get. Public employee pensions, and I'm backing PRIVATE employee pensions through the PBGC, all of which before I get to save for my own retirement.


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## GoBlowSnow

Oh what a feeling.. Crapota.. j/k


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## jsup

GoBlowSnow said:


> Oh what a feeling.. Crapota.. j/k


My Sequoia has 240,000 and is in perfect mechanical shape. My friend's Expedition, one year older, is falling apart at 130,000. Both pretty well maintained. 

Anecdotal, but....

Go past any "union" factory. Go look at the parking lot. Just sayin'.


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## GoBlowSnow

I go by the Toyota Dealership all the time, mostly Chevy and Ford products that the mechanics drive


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## jsup

GoBlowSnow said:


> I go by the Toyota Dealership all the time, mostly Chevy and Ford products that the mechanics drive


Touche'. :smile_big: There's really no quality gap. It can vary from one vehicle to the other. Most vehicles today will run 100s of 1000s of miles if well maintained.


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## sscotsman

*The state of "What is Made Where" for Snowblowers.
Autumn 2018 edition.*

*100% made in the USA snowblower, both the Snowblower itself and the engine:*

Honda! (single-stage only)
Here is the update on Honda for 2016:



[email protected] said:


> If you want to add Honda:
> 
> • All Honda single-stage machines (3 models) are 100% manufactured (including the engine) at Honda's plant in Swepsonville, North Carolina.
> • Honda 2-stages machines (10 models) are also made there, but the engines are built at a Honda plant in Thailand.
> • All snow blowers built at the Honda plant in Swepsonville are further exported to Canada, Europe, and the U.K.
> • Honda single-stage snow blowers are the only ones sold in the USA that are 100% made in the USA
> • Honda snow engines are only available on a Honda snow blower. Honda does not sell their snow engines to any other manufacturer.



*Snowblower body made in the USA, engine made in Thailand:*

Honda 2-stage snowblowers.


*Snowblower bodies still made in the USA, with engines made in China:* 

All Ariens and Ariens Sno-Tek.
Probably all Husquvarna/Poulan.
Probably most MTD's. although this is not 100% certain: snowblower brands: MTD, Cub Cadet, Troy-Bilt, Yard-machines, Yardman, most Craftsman.


*Some snowblower bodies made in the USA with engines made in China, and some models 100% made in China:*

Briggs & Stratton brand names, Snapper, Simplicity, Brute, Murray and Briggs & Stratton brand names. A 100% made in China Briggs snowblower was first spotted in 2017, details in post 224 of this thread. To tell which is which, you will need to check the data tag on the snowblower itself (not the engine) The data tag should say "Assembled in China" or "Assembled in the USA"


*Snowblower body made in Mexico, Engine made in China:*

Toro.
Toro moved 2-stage snowblower production to Mexico in 2013.


*Snowblower body made in China, Engine made in China:*

And below are the known brand names that are 100% made in China..these machines should be avoided at all costs! never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never buy one of these:

All Power
All Power America
Amico
Beast (Home Depot)
Bolton
Bolton Pro
Central Machinery (Harbor Freight)
Certified
DEK (Sears)
Echelon
GardenPro
Giovanni
GXi Outdoor Power
Huskee
Jet Moto
Loncin GardenPro
Mansfield
Powerland
Power Smart
PowRcraft
Pow'R'kraft
Snow Beast (Home Depot)
Snow Joe
Stanley
Steele Products (Sears)
Sunsay
Tao
Tao Tao
World Lawn
Visita
Yardmax
Yongkang
Yongkang Visita

There are probably more..
(many of those brands also make mowers and other products..I wouldnt buy anything made those brands)
never never never buy one of these! Here is some reading about the quality you can expect if you do:

https://www.snowblowerforum.com/for...6058-new-stanley-36-commerical-two-stage.html

https://www.snowblowerforum.com/for...orum/7586-36-inch-stanley-already-broken.html


Amazon customer reviews of a powerland model:







And Amazon customer reviews of Stanley model..there is ONE 5-star review, from the manufacturer! :wink:
and four 1-star reviews, from actual owners of the machine:
http://tinyurl.com/luf2c24
(update, Amazon removed the 5-star review that was from the manufacturer! good for them..now only real customer reviews remain.)

"All Power" generators:
http://tinyurl.com/yb36bmh9


Scot


----------



## Keithozzie

Maybe your company needs a pension plan. If the greedy shareholders would help out the working class some all would be better off. The more a person takes home, the more he/she will spend on products and the economy benefits as well. We need to cut pensions for our government like they have done to all sectors.


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## snowmaster

Toro large frame two stage (power max hd) has always and continues to be manufactured in Windom MN


----------



## tdipaul

snowmaster said:


> Toro large frame two stage (power max hd) has always and continues to be manufactured in Windom MN


Excellent.

Don't know about you but Im getting tired of buying things from China. In one fell swoop and without firing a gun, they have destroyed our economy. IMO they don't care about or like us, lots of their products are crap, and it is quite possible all we are doing is funding their military. CV-19 is the straw that has broken the camel's back.

Oh, and speaking of camel's, Im tired of funding the Saudi's too. .


----------



## TooTall999

snowmaster said:


> Toro large frame two stage (power max hd) has always and continues to be manufactured in Windom MN


But the engines are made in China, as are the engines for Ariens and every other snowblower. I'm the proud owner of a Chinese built, DR snowblower. This snowblower is made in China to DR's specs and imported and sold by them. It has the same engine as Toro uses(Loncin), has the same auto steer differential that Ariens and Toro use, and is represents a better value for the dollar than anything offered by Ariens or Toro.


----------



## sscotsman

TooTall999 said:


> But the engines are made in China, as are the engines for Ariens and every other snowblower. I'm the proud owner of a Chinese built, DR snowblower. This snowblower is made in China to DR's specs and imported and sold by them. It has the same engine as Toro uses(Loncin), has the same auto steer differential that Ariens and Toro use, and is represents a better value for the dollar than anything offered by Ariens or Toro.


Thanks TT, but you forgot one important detail: _in your opinion_ it represents a better value for the dollar than anything offered by Ariens or Toro. 

Scot


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## tabora

TooTall999 said:


> But the engines are made in China, as are the engines for Ariens and every other snowblower...


Not Honda. GX model engines for the U.S. market have been made in the excellent Thailand plant or in Japan.





Honda Engines | Manufacturing Locations


Honda engines are manufactured in Honda factories throughout the world.




engines.honda.com


----------



## ST1100A

The Honda GX series engines were made in the USA back in the 80's and 90's. The GC - "Garbage Can" - "Grand China" engines were first made in China, now they are made in the USA.
The GX motors were made in Georgia and the old Honda plant in N.C. a few miles away from the new plant in Swepsonville. The old power equipment plant is now where Honda builds their Jet Aircraft.
All of the snowblower auger housings were made in Canada and shipped back to the Honda assembly plant in North Carolina back in the 90's.
Honda has shifted their manufacturing plants around considerably over the past few decades, along with all of their top people in engineering, training, service, technical, manufacturing and sales in most of their different divisions, Auto, Motorcycle, Marine, Outdoor Power Equipment, ATV, Aircraft, Engine, Power-train and any other divisions they have. They have closed up all of their various training facilities around the country in a "Cost Cutting", plus eliminated many of the top jobs within the company in an effort to save money, plus selling their full line of Power Equipment products at Big Box stores now, causing many of their dedicated Authorized Dealerships to close because of loss of sales of the Honda product the private dealerships carried.


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## tabora

ST1100A said:


> The Honda GX series engines were made in the USA back in the 80's and 90's...The GX motors were made in Georgia and the old Honda plant in N.C. a few miles away from the new plant in Swepsonville...


You keep saying this, but Honda personnel all seem to disagree... And I've found no evidence that the GX Commercial OHV engines (originally the ZE engines) have ever been made in the USA. Honda Global | The ZE Engine (GX110 / 140 / 240 / 270 / 340 Series) / 1983
I don't think even the old G/GV side valve engines were ever made here. However the OHC GC/GCV and the new OHC GS/GSV engines are.


----------



## ST1100A

Tabora, the information you have is from after the year 2000. Honda does not release info from before that time period. 
I used to work for American Honda back then so we have first hand knowledge of what went on back then.
I have photographs of a Honda GX series engine that has the "Made In USA" casted on the engine block. The engine was made back around 1993.
I tried to send it to you before and wrote you a private message asking you how I can send it to you, I can't get it to work on this site.
I haven't heard back from you since, that was last year when I sent you the private message asking how I can send you the picture of one of my engines with the Made in USA casted into the oil pan.
Honda changed a lot of things back in the late 90's early 2000's. The info we have is right from American Honda on regular postal mail, that was before they did everything on the computer.
There are not many "Old Timers" around anymore that had dealerships that originally opened up back in the very early 1960's, which we were one of, our first opened late 1959, early 1960 era and stayed in business until recently, so we know what we are talking about and what went on with American Honda. We have been to many of the factories and training centers, plus over to Japan World Headquarters. I have worked with many of the engineers and technical staff and training staff over the years.
Our Dealership owner met Mr Soichiro Honda personally on a couple of different occasions.
Nobody with Honda today can recall any of that information, the "Old Timers" who were with Honda are no longer there anymore, whether due to retirement or Honda doing away with their positions, but we still keep in touch with some of them that are still around.
In the mid to later 90's after Mr Honda died, the company changed things drastically and we all saw it coming and knew they were doing things more for money and did not care about their proven reputation of quality and reliability, we watched the company go down hill ever since.
Many other companies took the same "Route" and did the same thing.


----------



## Cutter

HCBPH said:


> It's unfortunate but a fact of life, things once made here are now made elsewhere along with the jobs of creating them.
> There's no single cause, but every consumer has to accept part of the blame. Every stockholder getting a dividend check is another. Every exec that is getting a fatter paycheck becuse of jobs no longer done here have a piece in this puzzle too.
> It goes all up and down the food chain.


Unfortunately, you are so totally correct. Most people don't look past their wallets to see the truth, but you do.


----------



## orangputeh

ST1100A said:


> Tabora, the information you have is from after the year 2000. Honda does not release info from before that time period.
> I used to work for American Honda back then so we have first hand knowledge of what went on back then.
> I have photographs of a Honda GX series engine that has the "Made In USA" casted on the engine block. The engine was made back around 1993.
> I tried to send it to you before and wrote you a private message asking you how I can send it to you, I can't get it to work on this site.
> I haven't heard back from you since, that was last year when I sent you the private message asking how I can send you the picture of one of my engines with the Made in USA casted into the oil pan.
> Honda changed a lot of things back in the late 90's early 2000's. The info we have is right from American Honda on regular postal mail, that was before they did everything on the computer.
> There are not many "Old Timers" around anymore that had dealerships that originally opened up back in the very early 1960's, which we were one of, our first opened late 1959, early 1960 era and stayed in business until recently, so we know what we are talking about and what went on with American Honda. We have been to many of the factories and training centers, plus over to Japan World Headquarters. I have worked with many of the engineers and technical staff and training staff over the years.
> Our Dealership owner met Mr Soichiro Honda personally on a couple of different occasions.
> Nobody with Honda today can recall any of that information, the "Old Timers" who were with Honda are no longer there anymore, whether due to retirement or Honda doing away with their positions, but we still keep in touch with some of them that are still around.
> In the mid to later 90's after Mr Honda died, the company changed things drastically and we all saw it coming and knew they were doing things more for money and did not care about their proven reputation of quality and reliability, we watched the company go down hill ever since.
> Many other companies took the same "Route" and did the same thing.


That is exactly why I like the older Honda's. I can even retrofit mine now with the new HSS model height adjustment hardware if wanted. Here is an older HS1132 with that. The older models as we have discussed before were clearly built better. The manual chute , the correctly jetted carburetor , the thicker metal , stronger hardware, the stronger trannies , the list list goes on.
Only time will tell if the HSS models have the longevity that Honda is famous for. I go to the dealer all the time and hear the mechanics talk about all the warranty work and time spent working on machines that are only 2-3 years old. That was practically unheard of with the HS models.


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## TooTall999

sscotsman said:


> Thanks TT, but you forgot one important detail: _in your opinion_ it represents a better value for the dollar than anything offered by Ariens or Toro.
> 
> Scot


No Scott, it's a matter of the numbers. For the price, nothing built by Ariens or Toro comes close.


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## tabora

ST1100A said:


> I have photographs of a Honda GX series engine that has the "Made In USA" casted on the engine block. The engine was made back around 1993.
> I tried to send it to you before and wrote you a private message asking you how I can send it to you, I can't get it to work on this site.
> I haven't heard back from you since, that was last year when I sent you the private message asking how I can send you the picture of one of my engines with the Made in USA casted into the oil pan.


It's very easy to post pictures on this site, either as an attachment (paper clip icon), or as an insert (image icon 4th from left). I have no private messages (now called conversations) older than about 4 months ago...


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## ST1100A

tabora said:


> It's very easy to post pictures on this site, either as an attachment (paper clip icon), or as an insert (image icon 4th from left). I have no private messages (now called conversations) older than about 4 months ago...


Tabora, I sent it to you last October so you wouldn't have it , that was over 4 months ago.
I will try what you said about posting pictures. I tried that before the site was changed and it did not work. 
I think the new set up of the site is harder to work with than the old site.
I do have some of those pictures on my profile if you can get to see it, I don't know, but thanks for the info, I will try to get some posted.


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## ST1100A




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## ST1100A




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## ST1100A




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## ST1100A

Those are some photos of an American made GXV Honda engine taken with a digital camera. I have other pictures that were taken with a regular camera that I would have to figure out how to get them on the computer since they are not digital.
The engine was made back in 1993 in America, it is a GX series vertical shaft. Back then they were made in Japan and the USA. There were factories in Georgia, Alabama, Greensboro North Carolina, that was before the Swepsonville plant was built, and a few other places that Honda didn't like to specify because they didn't want the public to know about too much at that time, they kept things secret to the public until the mid to later 90's for a short time, then around year 2000 they moved a lot of production facilities around the world and changed locations of everything trying to cut costs, and did away with a lot of their large parts warehouses and did away with a lot of their O.E.M. parts for older models of their products.
Honda used to Cast the "Made in USA" on their engines, then as they started to cut costs, They stopped casting it on them and stamped it on them, then cutting costs more, they just placed stickers on them that said "Made in USA". It was at that time when we saw Honda quality starting to drop from the older machines.
Back in the 80's and 90's Honda was good with getting parts for all of their older model equipment, not only cars, but motorcycles and outdoor power equipment.
They decided to do away with all the old parts supplies and close everything down to save money, and to make people buy new products instead of repairing their older products to keep them running.
A few years later the GC series came out and they were all made in China at that time, and they had so many problems with them it wasn't funny. Quality was very poor and replacement parts never fit properly. Then they started assembling them in the USA and the parts did not interchange, they were different "part sets" for the 2 different countries of manufacture even though they were the same engines. We had to specify what country of manufacture the engine was made at before we could order parts for them.
China did not have the clearance tolerances like the USA and Japan made engines had, Japan and USA had exacting tolerances and those parts would interchange without a problem, unlike the China made engines.
The GS series engine is nothing more than the GC engine with a steel cylinder liner in it. The GC engines had the aluminum cylinder and they wore out extremely quick from the piston ring friction and piston travel. A lot of people only got a few seasons out of them before they were worn out and had to be replaced, so they decided to make an engine with a steel lined cylinder to make it last longer. They are still a lot less expensive than the GX series engine,don't last as long and are not as robust like the GX motor.


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## tabora

ST1100A said:


> Those are some photos of an American made GXV Honda engine taken with a digital camera...


Yes, that is a GXV lawn mower engine, not a GX snowblower engine that we've been debating. I maintain that GX engines for the US market were always made in the Japan or Thailand plants. Lawnmower GXV engines are a different story, per Honda:

The HR214 engine (GXV120) was initially produced in Japan and moved to US production during later production on that model.
The HR215 used a GXV140 that was always produced at the US plant in North Carolina.


2-Stage Honda HSS snowblowers have their GX engines cast and assembled at the Honda plant in Thailand, then final assembly happens in Swepsonville, NC.
2-Stage Honda HS snowblowers had their GX engines cast and assembled at the Honda plant in Thailand (or earlier in Japan), then final assembly happened in Japan.
Single-stage Honda snowthrowers have their GC engines cast, assembled, and complete frame/final assembly all happens at the Honda plant in Swepsonville, NC.


Honda EM, EB, and EG series generators are the only Honda products sold in the USA that are manufactured at Honda plants in China. Even those models get their engines cast and assembled at the Honda Thailand plant first.
All snow blowers built at the Honda plant in Swepsonville are further exported to Canada, Europe, and the U.K.
Honda single-stage snow blowers are the only ones sold in the USA that are 100% made in the USA.
Honda snow engines are only available on a Honda snow blower. Honda does not sell their snow engines to any other manufacturer.


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## ST1100A

Hi Tabora, thanks for writing back.
The list you showed earlier doesn't list the GXV made in America, that is a list from 2000 and afterwards.
The GX industrial engines were produced in America before year 2000, back in the 80's early 90's that Honda doesn't list on anything they release to the public anymore.
I still have to get the documents we have from Honda dated back in the early to mid 90's about where they were manufactured. At that time they were built in either Japan for world market or USA for USA market. We have a large trailer packed full of paperwork, filled solid with all of it that is going to take months if not years to go through all of it.
The snowblower auger housings were made at a plant in Canada back in the 90's and shipped to Greensboro plant back before the Swepsonville plant opened. Greensboro is down the road a few miles from Swepsonville.
You are really up on your current history of Honda. If you could see all the documents we have from Honda you would probably spend Weeks on end reading all of it and taking pictures of them and wonder why Honda doesn't list any of that information to the public. That is all Dealer privileged info that was not supposed to be released to the public.
We had bulletins and privileged info that you would be able to write a volume of books about, probably a whole library full of.
Our first dealership opened 1959-1960 era, our second opened 1964 era so we had a lot of older info and history on the company, Auto, Motorcycle, Outdoor Power Equipment, Marine, ATV and Scooter, all separate franchises.
I want to get you some of the pictures of the GX engine on a snowblower with the "Made in USA" stickers on the engine, and other "Made in USA" stickers on the Auger Housing and frames of them back in the early 90's, plus like to get you some copies of the sales brochures of the equipment stating about manufactured in the USA and what plants they were manufactured at with pictures.
I have been to the Greensboro OPE plant and others in the USA, and at the different Ohio plants many times.
I am sure if I can get you the info, you would be extremely interested in all of it, you would probably want to bring a tractor trailer with you and take the whole trailer with you just from all the Honda info in it.
Tabora, I would like to be able to introduce you to the owner of the franchise we had, I am sure you would have a lot of interesting talks about Honda history, he has been around Honda for quite a long time.


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## tabora

ST1100A said:


> The GX industrial engines were produced in America before year 2000, back in the 80's early 90's that Honda doesn't list on anything they release to the public anymore.


So, you're asserting that the GX engines, which Honda personnel again assured me today were made in Asia, were produced in the USA and then shipped to Japan for assembly into HS80 snowblowers? Sorry, that doesn't pass Occam's razor... 

My 1987 GX240-TA1 Engine on the HS80K1-TAS certainly doesn't have "Made in USA" on it. @orangputeh, you've probably seen more GX engines than anyone here; have you ever seen one with "Made in USA" embossed into the casing?

The HR lawnmower engines were a special case, apparently, where Honda was trying to break into the U.S. Market.


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## ST1100A

Honda was in the USA back in 1964 with their power equipment and outboard marine engines, probably most of the people with Honda today weren't even born then. They were in the USA with their motorcycles before that, and their automobiles since 1959.
Yes the GX engines were produced in America, Japan and some other Asian countries. At that time they didn't produce that much in China because their relationship with China was not as good as it is today. Japan being an Allie with America and China being a Communist country, plus the USA rebuilt them after the war and became their biggest trading partner. China and Japan were at odds with each other for decades.
They did produce them here and ship them to Japan, then back here again attached to the rest of the equipment they were intended for.
Honda's philosophy was a lot different back then as it is today. Today everything is about money to them, it wasn't back then. They were more worried about pleasing the customer with a reputable long lasting high quality products.
They wanted to have excellent relations with the Country they were selling their product in, and one way of doing that was to have the product made here instead of importing it.It also saved money by not having to import it or the components to make it here. 
Honda was a leader in the amount of their product that was made here, a higher percentage than most of the other foreign companies, which there were many of like Kawasaki, Yamaha and Suzuki, who all had manufacturing facilities in the USA and all made Outdoor Power Equipment, then add all the auto manufacturers with that.
Honda was the largest small engine manufacturer in the world. Honda was smart back then, they saw the market they had in the USA and produced many of their product here to save shipping costs and give Americans jobs, plus to make them feel proud of owning American made Honda equipment that was made here. That was also at the time when there was a lot going on between Japanese manufacturers and Harley Davidson, an American company. It was to help keep Americans from holding a Grudge against Japanese manufacturers.
Mr Soichiro Honda was a very smart person who was also very environmentally conscious and didn't like to waste or pollute the environment. 
If you were ever in any of their manufacturing plants and saw how clean everything was done there you would be amazed. Honda was so far ahead of other American manufacturing companies, they set the standards which a lot of other companies tried to follow.
The HS624 and 828 models were in the time-frame of the American made GX series engines. The snowblower engines used different crankshafts than the standard industrial engines to make them "Chassis Specific" for the snowblowers, they also had the different shielding and duct work along with different carburetor jetting and lack of air filter elements, other than that, the engine chassis was the same.
Honda started out before World War 2 making piston rings. After the war, they started to make inexpensive automobiles, then motorcycles for cheap transportation since their country was in the process of rebuilding after the war, then continued to expand into different products that the everyday person needed.
A lot of the information I listed is not available "Online", that was all available only to Authorized Dealerships before the "Computer/Internet Age" became popular with everyone. Most people at Honda today only know of or talk about things from year 2000 and after. You wont find much information prior to year 2000 on the computer of the history of the company as to a lot of their technical and trade information.


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## Ziggy65

I came across this post today, it is from 2016. I am not familiar with Honda products, not sure if this clears anything up.

Here is the thread: Ariens AX Engine

*
[email protected]
Registered*
Joined Nov 21, 2011
841 Posts
#8 • Sep 2, 2016


> SnoThro said:
> GX engines are majority made in Thailand, not China, and have been for many years at a large well established Honda plant.


Honda Thai plant also makes the smaller GX120/160 horizontal shaft engines. Vertical-shaft (mostly for OEM lawn mower) GXV160 engines are made at a Honda plant in China. The same China plant makes all Honda's large V-twin engines.



> SnoThro said:
> The GC engine in the single stages is cast in South Carolina.


Actually, Swepsonville, North Carolina (open since the early 80s, and building GC/GCV/GS/GSV engines since they were launched in the early 90s).

- - -
[email protected]
Social Media _Consigliere _(retired)
Caveat: I work for Honda, but the preceding is my opinion alone.


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## tabora

ST1100A said:


> Yes the GX engines were produced in America...


As the MythBusters would say, "until we see a GX horizontal snow engine with a "Made in USA" casting or a USA Plant Code, Myth Busted."


Ziggy65 said:


> ...Honda Thai plant also makes the smaller GX120/160 horizontal shaft engines...Actually, Swepsonville, North Carolina (open since the early 80s, and building GC/GCV/GS/GSV engines since they were launched in the early 90s).


Yup, that's in line with my research.


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## paulm12

tabora said:


> As the MythBusters would say, "until we see a GX horizontal snow engine with a "Made in USA" casting or a USA Plant Code, Myth Busted."



not even plausible? I love Mythbusters !! 

tx


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## toofastforyou

For me, it's all a matter of M-O-N-E-Y and how much I will have to take out of my pockets when I want to purchase something. Yeah I'd like to encourage "buying local" but workers here want too much and are also backed by unions who don't care if things cost more to the consumers. If something made here costs me more than something made in China, well I won't hesitate in buying it from China. It's called "business" and my #1 priority is to use every way possible to get more for my money at the least possible cost. 😕

Claude.


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## ST1100A

toofastforyou said:


> For me, it's all a matter of M-O-N-E-Y and how much I will have to take out of my pockets when I want to purchase something. Yeah I'd like to encourage "buying local" but workers here want too much and are also backed by unions who don't care if things cost more to the consumers. If something made here costs me more than something made in China, well I won't hesitate in buying it from China. It's called "business" and my #1 priority is to use every way possible to get more for my money at the least possible cost. 😕
> 
> Claude.


Yes, but Honda is all "Non-Union", they have never been Union, and never will be. The workers get more pay and better benefits without the Union helping to take their Union Dues out of their paychecks.
How do I know? I used to work for Honda, that's how.
The cheap GC engines are made here now, where it costs more to manufacture them. The expensive GX motors are now made overseas where it is cheaper to build them to help balance the prices.
Things were the other way around last Century, before all the different companies decided to do things the "American Way", that is make everything as cheap as possible and make as much profit for the CEO's as possible.
Yes workers want more money,they expect a salary that pays a "Livable Wage" and with everything else being so expensive now days, the worker needs much more money just to try and survive.
America is a Capitalist society, much different than China, where it is all "Slave Labor" compared the the USA. In our society, it is all about profit for the rich and hell with anyone else.


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## ArchAngel72

Hrmm
Really wishing I had found this thread before I knee-jerked and bought a black friday deal blower from the orange box store.

Now I bear the shame of a USA body Chinese Engine blower.
/sigh
I shall go to the box and feel shame....

I honestly cannot think I would have done differently at the time though. I was in a spot, having been an idiot and not put my tailgate up with the old blower in the back of the truck and it rolled out the back. Maybe I could have looked for something used. But I did want shiny/new..

I do hope to use this one for 3 to 5 years and build up a fund to splurge on an Ariens but time will tell. Who knows this TB storm 2665 may just out live me. I do know I want to upgrade the riding lawn mower soon! So that is taking precedence on funding availability.


* Edit
Note to Scot, Thank you for all your time and effort on this thread. VERY VERY impressive amount of time, research and knowledge involved in it. -Gabe


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## TooTall999

ArchAngel72 said:


> Hrmm
> Really wishing I had found this thread before I knee-jerked and bought a black friday deal blower from the orange box store.
> 
> Now I bear the shame of a USA body Chinese Engine blower.
> /sigh
> I shall go to the box and feel shame....
> 
> I honestly cannot think I would have done differently at the time though. I was in a spot, having been an idiot and not put my tailgate up with the old blower in the back of the truck and it rolled out the back. Maybe I could have looked for something used. But I did want shiny/new..
> 
> I do hope to use this one for 3 to 5 years and build up a fund to splurge on an Ariens but time will tell. Who knows this TB storm 2665 may just out live me. I do know I want to upgrade the riding lawn mower soon! So that is taking precedence on funding availability.
> 
> 
> * Edit
> Note to Scot, Thank you for all your time and effort on this thread. VERY VERY impressive amount of time, research and knowledge involved in it. -Gabe


There's no shame in it. All modern snowblowers are built with Chinese manufactured engines. I bought a Chinese made DR blower last year and dollar for dollar, it beats every American made blower in it's price point.


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## tabora

TooTall999 said:


> All modern snowblowers are built with Chinese manufactured engines.


Except Honda. Built at the excellent Honda Thai engine plant.








Honda Global | August 25, 2014 Honda's Cumulative Power Products Production in Thailand Reaches 25 Million Mark


Honda Global | Honda's Cumulative Power Products Production in Thailand Reaches 25 Million Mark




global.honda




And the single stage HS720 models are built entirely in the Swepsonville, NC plant, including the GC190 engines.


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## Elfiero

In which country does the net profit from the honda lawnmower end up?


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## Tony-chicago

Or any company...


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