# Hard starting hot Toro 418ez



## lefin102 (Jan 7, 2018)

Hi All,

Looking for help with hard starting Toro 418ez when hot. After using and stalling the engine is hard to restart. I have to use the electric start to get it back on line. It’s been doing this since new. 

I put a new carb on it just because and it’s always been runnig on aviation 100LL. It’s Had very little use. Near new condition. 

I got it from Home Depot in 2012. 

Any ideas are welcome thx ! Frank


----------



## LouC (Dec 5, 2016)

Try using regular gas. It does not in any way need gas that is that high in octane and it may actually start better on plain old 87-89 octane fuel....


----------



## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

What causes the engine to stall? Were you blowing normally, and it just died out of the blue? Or did it stall because it was, for instance, shoved into a big snowbank, which killed the engine? 

Just trying to understand if it can't continue running when it gets hot (ie- it stalls on its own), or if the problem is after any sort of shutdown, and then a difficult hot restart. 

What's your hot restart procedure? Do you prime it? Use the choke? 

After it starts again, does it run normally, or is it weak, etc?


----------



## lefin102 (Jan 7, 2018)

RedOctobyr said:


> What causes the engine to stall? Were you blowing normally, and it just died out of the blue? Or did it stall because it was, for instance, shoved into a big snowbank, which killed the engine?
> 
> Just trying to understand if it can't continue running when it gets hot (ie- it stalls on its own), or if the problem is after any sort of shutdown, and then a difficult hot restart.
> 
> ...


Hey Red,

It stalls if its loaded heavy during use. It runs fine without loading. Restarting in any method is very difficult unless it’s plugged into the electric using the motor. Prime no prime , choke no choke. Pretty much tried everything. I left it out in 10 deg weather for hours and started it however took some playing with choke and priming. 

I checked everything you can think of even valve adjustment. I’m going to do compression test hot and cold and see what it has. 

I only use 100LL in all of my small engines and stored motorcycles. I’m sure it’s not the problem.

Thx for the ideas!


----------



## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

Darn, I was going to ask about checking valve clearance. Do you have an inline spark tester? That could help show if you're losing spark as the engine fails. 

At least, when you can't get it to re-start, can you check for spark then? Remove the spark plug, connect it to the plug wire, and rest the plug against the metal engine block. Pull the cord and see if you get a bright blue spark. 

If not, maybe the ignition coil is failing when it gets hot. 

If you have spark, what if you spray some ether (or gas) into the intake, then try to start it? If it suddenly starts then, it's fuel-related. 

Sometimes fuel caps don't vent the way they're supposed to. An engine that runs for a while, then dies, could be drawing a vacuum in the gas tank, and become unable to draw fuel. Remove the gas cap, then reinstall it. If you can suddenly start it, then you're probably dealing with a cap that's not venting. Alternately, if it was easy to reproduce the stalling (eg- let it run for 5 minutes and it will then die every time), you can loosen the cap, so it can vent, and then let it run, and see if anything changes. 

If spark, fuel, and compression all check out, I'd try running just normal 87 octane gas as a test, and see what happens. There was just a discussion about high-octane gas, like racing gas, with engines not designed for it: 
http://www.snowblowerforum.com/forum/general-snowblower-discussion/129938-race-gas-old-tecumseh.html

Some people said that very high-octane gas in an engine designed for 87, like these, can cause trouble. It's an easy thing to try, anyways.


----------



## lefin102 (Jan 7, 2018)

Red, thx for your input! One thing I notice is when restarting with electric start it tries when spinning fast. Think checking the compression should tell us something. If weak hot then loss of vacuum hot. I’ve done the cap lose no help. If its at speed running no issues getting it back after a stall it needs to spin fast. Hand pulling is not fast enough. I’ll report what I find with compression test tomorrow. thx Frank

PS. I checked the spark cold anyway can’t remember if I did it hot. I’ll check hot too!


----------



## lefin102 (Jan 7, 2018)

Red, compression cold & hot 75/80 ish , spark cold & hot very good. Had to make spacers to run without carb cover. Adding fuel directly to carb didn’t help. I’m going to change the plug. If the plug is it I’m getting drunk.


----------



## vinnycom (Nov 6, 2017)

ya, sometimes we think of the simple things too late in a teardown.
my motto is "keep it simple, stupid"


----------



## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

The compression sounds good to me, my machine has tested around 35 psi when using the pull starter, presumably due to the compression release. 

If your compression was quite low, I'd wonder about valve clearances being too small when it's hot. But the compression seems alright, and you said you checked valve clearances. 

To run, you need compression, spark, and fuel. You seem to have compression. You said you have spark, and you also added fuel. So we're missing something. 

As you said, it's worth trying another plug. Also, try closing down the gap on the plug. Especially if the problem is when hot, the ignition coil can get weak when it's hot, weakening/eliminating your spark. A smaller gap would make it easier for at least *some* sort of spark to bridge the gap. I had a machine that was tough to start, I had a spark when watching for it, but replacing the plug definitely made it easier to start. So there was something wrong with the original one, despite seeing a spark. 

Have you tried starting fluid (ether)? Among other things, it's already a spray, vs splashing some liquid gas into the intake. The sprayed-in starting fluid may be easier to ignite. If it started with that, it would at least give some hints as to the problem.


----------



## lefin102 (Jan 7, 2018)

Red the plug didn’t help. The spark was better under power both cold & hot. Hand pull hot & cold spark was weaker. I checked the coil last year I doubt it changed. I reset the air gap it was tight 0.010 spec is 0.011-0.019 , now @ 0.015. It will start cold 4 pulls with 2 primes and half choke. I did notice the flywheel magnet is not machined finished completely so the side that goes under the coil pickup is inconsistent. I tried to switch it but it’s made so cheaply there was a taper under the coil which wouldn’t work. Could the flywheel magnet be the issue with bad finish? It definitely had better spark with electric start over had pull. Haven’t tried starting fluid yet I an sure its getting fuel. $400 machine with $1000 in labor. Haha I hate to lose.


----------



## lefin102 (Jan 7, 2018)

Red, retested the coil! Spec 1.0-1.6 ohm primary , 15Kohm +/- 15% secondary, this was done cold. I checked the engine temp warm it was only 130 deg F @ the bottom of the case. So I warmed the coil with heat gun to 150 deg F. Primary 1.7 ohm secondary 16,500 ohm. This isn’t much but the primary is now out of spec by 0.1. Secondary within spec.

I got it to start cold with 2 prime and half choke with 2 pulls. hot almost a few times even with starting fluid. Definitely not fuel. I bought a flywheel used and now thinking it’s time for a coil kit. I’ll keep you posted.


----------



## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

An inline spark tester may still help confirm what's going on. If you get flashes (showing it's sparking) when cold, but not when pulling it while hot, that would help understand the situation. Granted, it does sound like a spark problem, but vs checking against specs, if you simply don't get a spark under compression when hot, then you definitely know you have an ignition problem. 

https://www.harborfreight.com/in-line-spark-checker-for-non-recessed-plugs-69014.html

No idea what the coil, etc, cost, but hopefully you can get it resolved at a reasonable price!


----------



## lefin102 (Jan 7, 2018)

Red, I had one of my friends help check the spark hot & cold while i pulled and there is a difference. He also recommended the in line tester. I haven’t had one in years use to have one in a snapon screwdriver but some 40 years ago. Might pick one up. There is spark but weaker hot. I ordered a new OEM ignition kit today. I’ll have it in a week. I’m not good at posting pictures but if I can you’ll see how the flywheel magnet looks. And I suspect it might be a small part of the problem. Coil cost $40. 


Keep in mind if I ues the electric start it will fire up! cold or hot. So there’s obviously spark just not enough for hand pull. you just can’t pull it fast enough like electric motor.

also the coil is at its outer limits of spec cold and 0.1 out hot so that justifies replacing it. I hate to lose especially to a simple thing like this!


----------



## lefin102 (Jan 7, 2018)

Red, new coil uesd good flywheel will start second pull with two primes and half choke. Hot not a chance. Tried non-resistor plug no help. Never got hot compression reading so back to that and good and solid 80 pis hot. Next going to try less air gap. Probably should have done that first.


----------



## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

Bummer! I hoped a new coil would fix it, at least. When you say trying less air gap, you mean coil to flywheel, or spark plug gap? Fortunately, either one should increase your odds of getting a spark, I'd imagine. 

But I would have expected the coil to be the main/only source of a weak ignition problem, assuming the flywheel magnets are OK, and that your coil to flywheel gap is correct. Maybe lightly sand the outside of the flywheel magnets area, just to make sure there's nothing interfering with the coil function? If a layer of rust was effectively increasing your coil-flywheel distance (you'd be setting the gap to the rust, not to the magnets), that might contribute to a weaker spark. 

I think I've heard about people testing for hot-coil problems by spraying them with canned air, or similar, to cool them after running. If suddenly you have spark again, then the coil's temperature is the problem. 

80 psi should be plenty to start, I would think, my machines start with 50 psi or less, when pulling by hand. 

I still think an inline spark tester could be useful. If, when hot, it doesn't show any spark with the plug still installed, and pulling by hand, then you definitely don't need to give any more thought to compression, etc. And if it *does* still show a spark, then something else is contributing.


----------



## lefin102 (Jan 7, 2018)

Red, yes I set flywheel/coil air gap @0.008 this afternoon and still no help. I sand blasted the flywheel and coated it with WD40 before installing it. I’ve pretty much checked everything twice and tried everything I can think of short of tearing it down to see what’s inside. I tried to put a bore scope in the crankcase to see if flywheel timing mark lined up with cam but the case was to tight to see the cam mark. There’s no way it could be off a tooth and run right! It’s hard to believe all that I’ve done and zilch! If you pull fast enough or use the electric start it will come back to life. I might take a rest and get other projects done before trying anything else for now. thx


----------

