# EFI it’s been a few years. What’s the consensus?



## Nan_wpg (Jan 15, 2015)

Although my 1981 mastercraft is still working. I’m really wanting a new Ariens platinum 24. And it’s looking like next year may be the time. Old blower will be delegated to the backyard for the deck.

EFI was pretty new but it’s been out for a while. I don’t see a lot of bad posts. Maybe because it’s still too new??

I now know how to rebuild a carb, and I use aspen/trufuel exclusively so like;y no more issues. 

EFI had advantages as well as downfalls. Even if nothing breaks , There’s also the battery to charge, and eventually replace.

not sure why a battery is need for EFI (yes I know why…..but our Suzuki EFI outboard doesn’t have a battery Pull once and it “charges”. Second pull it starts up. Why can’t Ariens do this for the blower)

was thinking with the price savings of the carb model I can buy a replacement carb (or carb rebuild kit) just in case. Maybe extra belts. 

on the other hand I can’t remember ever replacing anything fuel system wise on any of my vehicles and they get way more use than a blower. Ya I know not really the same thing, but kinda??

on the other other hand, carbs are simple, easy to fix. Carb problems are almost 100% fuel related.
a local dealer told me anyone that he switches over to aspen never comes back for carb related issues.


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## Zavie (Sep 23, 2014)

Stick with what you know.


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## Ziggy65 (Jan 18, 2020)

The Platinum 24 SHO is a really nice machine. 

I would go with the carb model, simple proven technology. The EFI system adds unnecessary complexity IMHO.

Use the search feature on the forum to look up previous posts on Ariens EFI .


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## crazzywolfie (Jun 2, 2014)

Stay far far away from efi. It is just an expensive paperweight when stuff fails. The only time you see people with them pop up here they are having issues. Pretty sure someone on here was waiting months for parts and when the shop fixed it and he went to pick it up it shut off and wouldn't restart








Ariens Model 926068 EFI problem


the efi pump has a filter screen on it inside the tank why add another ?




www.snowblowerforum.com


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## Yanmar Ronin (Jan 31, 2015)

Agreed with the above... ain't got no time fo' dat.

I do have two injected small engines... but they're both diesel (completely different from gas EFI), zero failures/problems. 😎👍


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## jherbicide (Oct 14, 2021)

I too agree with the above consensus. To me the current execution of the EFI system creates more issues than it solves. My main two issues:

1. It doesn’t “seal” the fuel tank/system like the systems in modern vehicles. 

2. Introduces further complexity with the battery. As you mention, other devices have no battery, they use the first rope pull to charge the system.

Item 1 is killer for me. It’s relatively easy to solve a bad gas issue with a carb. With the current generation EFI, bad gas could lead to huge repair issues, and downtime.


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## Smokie1 (Sep 17, 2019)

crazzywolfie said:


> Stay far far away from efi. It is just an expensive paperweight when stuff fails. The only time you see people with them pop up here they are having issues. Pretty sure someone on here was waiting months for parts and when the shop fixed it and he went to pick it up it shut off and wouldn't restart
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have a 2019 24” Platinum SHO. I waited to get a non EFI one. I was able to try a 30” EFI the year before. I gave this a great deal of thought before pulling the trigger on the carbureted model. When I used the 30” EFI, the engine speed control knob was in an awkward place for me. I would bump it with my jacket, (the knob turned very easily) and I would unintentionally change the engine speed. The parts in the EFI that could potentially create problems were considerably more expensive than the parts in the carbureted model that could cause problems. When EFI goes, you have no warning other than the machine not starting. With a carbureted model, you start to notice decreased performance, rough idle, having to keep the choke open one click etc. before the machine won’t start. The last thing I want is a problem with my EFI with a storm on the way. I’d have to take it in to get it serviced, and in season, it’s always tough to get a dealer to fix anything in a timely fashion, as they are swamped. If the carb starts acting up, I know I can diagnose and fix it, and my blower is back in the game. I know EFI is the wave of the future. It’s easy to use( never have to choke the machine)), and the manufacturers will eventually need it to meet emission requirements. However, IMHO, at this time , EFI is not a user serviceable component, and that is s dealbreaker for me. I love my carbureted Platinum SHO. It is an awesome machine, and if I had to purchase a new one tomorrow, I’d buy one with a carb again.


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## Nan_wpg (Jan 15, 2015)

jherbicide said:


> I too agree with the above consensus. To me the current execution of the EFI system creates more issues than it solves. My main two issues:
> 
> 1. It doesn’t “seal” the fuel tank/system like the systems in modern vehicles.
> 
> ...


i,thought all EFI systems were sealed?can you explain a bit?


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## Nan_wpg (Jan 15, 2015)

Smokie1 said:


> I have a 2019 24” Platinum SHO. I waited to get a non EFI one. I was able to try a 30” EFI the year before. I gave this a great deal of thought before pulling the trigger on the carbureted model. When I used the 30” EFI, the engine speed control knob was in an awkward place for me. I would bump it with my jacket, (the knob turned very easily) and I would unintentionally change the engine speed. The parts in the EFI that could potentially create problems were considerably more expensive than the parts in the carbureted model that could cause problems. When EFI goes, you have no warning other than the machine not starting. With a carbureted model, you start to notice decreased performance, rough idle, having to keep the choke open one click etc. before the machine won’t start. The last thing I want is a problem with my EFI with a storm on the way. I’d have to take it in to get it serviced, and in season, it’s always tough to get a dealer to fix anything in a timely fashion, as they are swamped. If the carb starts acting up, I know I can diagnose and fix it, and my blower is back in the game. I know EFI is the wave of the future. It’s easy to use( never have to choke the machine)), and the manufacturers will eventually need it to meet emission requirements. However, IMHO, at this time , EFI is not a user serviceable component, and that is s dealbreaker for me. I love my carbureted Platinum SHO. It is an awesome machine, and if I had to purchase a new one tomorrow, I’d buy one with a carb again.


im really starting to see how a carb is better. And seriously I redid my carbs a couple years ago. And trust when I,say if I can do it, anyone can!


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## jherbicide (Oct 14, 2021)

Nan_wpg said:


> i,thought all EFI systems were sealed?can you explain a bit?


The ones on these blowers still use a vented fuel cap, so they certainly are not sealed. I think details are in the previously linked thread, but it may be in another EFI thread.


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## WrenchIt (Dec 6, 2020)

Interesting thread. I'm active on a Honda motorcycle website and while carb issues are common on the bikes discussed there, I cannot remember a problem w/ fuel injection. Fuel pumps, yes, but not so much with the injectors. I guess when Honda makes a FI snowblower, I'd be interested. Well, in an academic way, because it will probably cost north of $3,000.


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## jherbicide (Oct 14, 2021)

WrenchIt said:


> Interesting thread. I'm active on a Honda motorcycle website and while carb issues are common on the bikes discussed there, I cannot remember a problem w/ fuel injection. Fuel pumps, yes, but not so much with the injectors. I guess when Honda makes a FI snowblower, I'd be interested. Well, in an academic way, because it will probably cost north of $3,000.


Those EFI systems are more like (or just like) modern vehicles. Most will be open loop, all (or darn near all) be sealed systems. I’ve got a bike with EFI, due to kids (no time to ride) it’s got a mix of mostly 3 yr old gas. It fires up and runs just fine. 

For me personally if these EFI systems evolve to match the important technologies on vehicles, I’ll probably have a different opinion.


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## Yanmar Ronin (Jan 31, 2015)

＾＾＾Came to say that. 👍


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## crazzywolfie (Jun 2, 2014)

That the likely part of the biggest problem. The efi used on snowblower is not like what is found on slightly larger stuff like motorcycles. It is really just a dumbed down version without o2 sensor. Without an o2 sensor it will never be as efficient as possible. My friend has a fuel injected stump grinder and I believe it has a similar fuel injection. You can tell it doesn't have a o2 sensor since if you try take on too much and stall it the machine usually backfires out the when you try to fire it up from the computer continuing to inject the same amount of fuel leaving the exhaust full of fuel when you go to start it. I could be wrong but I feel like unless you got a o2 sensor you really won't get the best out of a fuel injected engine.


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## jherbicide (Oct 14, 2021)

crazzywolfie said:


> That the likely part of the biggest problem. The efi used on snowblower is not like what is found on slightly larger stuff like motorcycles. It is really just a dumbed down version without o2 sensor. Without an o2 sensor it will never be as efficient as possible. My friend has a fuel injected stump grinder and I believe it has a similar fuel injection. You can tell it doesn't have a o2 sensor since if you try take on too much and stall it the machine usually backfires out the when you try to fire it up from the computer continuing to inject the same amount of fuel leaving the exhaust full of fuel when you go to start it. I could be wrong but I feel like unless you got a o2 sensor you really won't get the best out of a fuel injected engine.


You don’t really need an O2 sensor for power, those are more used for emissions. They do help as you say, but generally speaking the “high performance “ tunes delete the O2 sensor and rely on dyno tuning to give the fuel maps.

But… those tunes do take time to perfect and an O2 sensor somewhat eliminates the need. The thing is the O2 sensors that are used in closed loop systems are “narrow band.” This just means the adjustments the O2 sensors enable are not exactly precise. The precise ones are too sensitive for extended use, they are used to help create the fuel mapping.









Is a wideband o2 sensor better for tuning AFR than a narrowband o2 sensor? Isn't my 1/2/3/4/5 wire stock o2 sensor good enough?


Wideband o2 sensors FTW! A narrowband sensor is only accurate at one tight range of 14.7:1, the stoichiometric AFR for gasoline. A wideband..




www.diyautotune.com


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## JJG723 (Mar 7, 2015)

According to Ariens, the EFI is a sealed system.

Benefits of EFI Snow Blowers | Ariens


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## crazzywolfie (Jun 2, 2014)

Just without a o2 sensor the computer just has to rely on what's programmed in the computer. I know there is a few times watching my friends stump grinder were I think if it had a o2 sensor it could have saved the engine from stalling by leaning things out instead of continuing to throw fuel at it


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## jherbicide (Oct 14, 2021)

JJG723 said:


> According to Ariens, the EFI is a sealed system.
> 
> Benefits of EFI Snow Blowers | Ariens


Interesting, Somewhere they are “lying.” From their manual, they use a vented cap, and I could have sworn I’ve seen a reference here that it uses a vented cap. I can’t locate it though. But here is a snapshot from their manual:












https://www.snowblowersdirect.com/manuals/ariens-6724fb90ae22004ec7fb6750a7983ed3.pdf



I’m a huge fan of EFI when it’s properly executed, from what I’ve seen here (forum) I have big concerns that it isn’t on these machines.


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## JJG723 (Mar 7, 2015)

jherbicide said:


> Interesting, Somewhere they are “lying.” From their manual, they use a vented cap, and I could have sworn I’ve seen a reference here that it uses a vented cap. I can’t locate it though. But here is a snapshot from their manual:
> 
> View attachment 183691
> 
> ...


Interesting indeed. Now look at the last troubleshooting suggestion on the list where it speaks to having "too much pressure in the fuel tank." That would suggest to me that there needs to be some pressure and the EFI caps do seal, then vent at a certain psi. Just a thought 🤔


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## jherbicide (Oct 14, 2021)

JJG723 said:


> Interesting indeed. Now look at the last troubleshooting suggestion on the list where it speaks to having "too much pressure in the fuel tank." That would suggest to me that there needs to be some pressure and the EFI caps do seal, then vent at a certain psi. Just a thought 🤔


That could entirely be true too; the cap just has a one way relief valve.

I can say with confidence that our modern vehicles don’t have any such feature in their fuel caps…


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

jherbicide said:


> Interesting, Somewhere they are “lying.” From their manual, they use a vented cap, and I could have sworn I’ve seen a reference here that it uses a vented cap. I can’t locate it though. But here is a snapshot from their manual:
> 
> View attachment 183691
> 
> ...


All fuel systems are vented - including cars! Otherwise, you would pull a vacuum as fuel was used! In both cases, air is allowed _IN_ to maintain tank pressure, but fumes are not allowed _OUT_. The vapor canister and all that crap on a car is a lot like the O2 sensor - for emissions. It doesn't mean that the system can't still be sealed. 

The main diff on this EFI over carb is that there is no float bowl open to the atmosphere to dry up and gunk up . . . . tankto injector _IS_ completely air tight, and tank is air in only, so no volatiles should be lost from fuel in the tank.


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## jherbicide (Oct 14, 2021)

tadawson said:


> All fuel systems are vented - including cars! Otherwise, you would pull a vacuum as fuel was used! In both cases, air is allowed _IN_ to maintain tank pressure, but fumes are not allowed _OUT_. The vapor canister and all that crap on a car is a lot like the O2 sensor - for emissions. It doesn't mean that the system can't still be sealed.
> 
> The main diff on this EFI over carb is that there is no float bowl open to the atmosphere to dry up and gunk up . . . . tankto injector _IS_ completely air tight, and tank is air in only, so no volatiles should be lost from fuel in the tank.


They are sealed, as the tanks are NOT directly open to atmosphere. They do let air into replace spent fuel, but it is controlled and only happens when fuel is being used. There isn’t a hole that just sits open to atmosphere all the time. That’s what the evap canisters do; their systems are also designed to maintain a slight vacuum in the tank.



https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.carparts.com/blog/evaporative-emission-control-evap-system-101-the-basics/amp/



And yes, it is primarily for emissions, but it does have the side effect of “sealing” the entire system from allowing air (read: moisture) to normally enter and exit the system.

Ever had or used a small outboard motor with those red 6 gallon external tanks? Notice they allow you to ‘shut’ that vent off. This is because marine = high humidity and can foul gas in a hurry even with a small vent. It’s also why fuel keeps longer (much longer!) in those sealed safety gas cans.


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## CarlB (Jan 2, 2011)

Nan_wpg said:


> Although my 1981 mastercraft is still working. I’m really wanting a new Ariens platinum 24. And it’s looking like next year may be the time. Old blower will be delegated to the backyard for the deck.
> 
> EFI was pretty new but it’s been out for a while. I don’t see a lot of bad posts. Maybe because it’s still too new??
> 
> ...


I would not buy an EFI machine.


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## groomerz (Feb 7, 2015)

From what people are posting about ariens efi. 
It sounds like 
Driving a Yugo to a root canal. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bzied (Apr 12, 2019)

The Honda EU7000IS Generator is a GX 390 with FI and I have not seen much negativity associated with its operation. Many are used commercially and many for residential backups, that are intermittently relied upon, without troubles. This generator has been around for some time now. I am wondering why Honda has not incorporated it for their snowblower?


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## jherbicide (Oct 14, 2021)

groomerz said:


> From what people are posting about ariens efi.
> It sounds like
> Driving a Yugo to a root canal.
> 
> ...


I believe all of the EFI engines on the market are made by LCT, regardless of brand/make of blower. Ariens is just the predominant spoken machine on this topic.


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## sscotsman (Dec 8, 2010)

I also intend to stick with carburetors.. my two 1971 Ariens and one 1991 "free curb find" Ariens will likely last me the rest of my life..
I have no interest in an EFI snowblower.
but..
this point has been brought up in previous threads on this topic, and I think its worth bringing up again:

Basically everyone in the 80's: "Cars have been working just fine with carburetors for 80 years, no one needs this ridiculous computer-controlled EFI on a new car. I'll stick with what works!"

 you see the point..

Scot


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## JJG723 (Mar 7, 2015)

sscotsman said:


> I also intend to stick with carburetors.. my two 1971 Ariens and one 1991 "free curb find" Ariens will likely last me the rest of my life..
> I have no interest in an EFI snowblower.
> but..
> this point has been brought up in previous threads on this topic, and I think its worth bringing up again:
> ...


The day is coming when all snow blowers will either be EFI or battery.


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## tek9tim (Jan 17, 2021)

Oh, the fear of new things. 

Like most everyone responding to this thread, I don't have experience with the injected LCT engines. 

But I have had an injected Polaris sled, and I currently have an injected Husqvarna snowbike. The Polaris was closed loop, and the Husky is open loop. Polaris was a 2 stroke without a battery, Husky is 4 stroke and has a battery (no kick start). These are both machines that sit unused for more than half the year (like blowers) and I haven't had any issues with injection or gunk buildup. I did have the computer go out on the snowbike in the middle of a ride, but I have an aftermarket computer to compensate for winter operation, so not quite fair assessment of OEM components in their intended use. I'd never go back to carbs for either application, but that's a lot different application from a blower. Significant changes in altitude and temperature throughout a day, high performance demands, and just not having the distraction of a poorly fueled motor is amazing. Plus, fuel economy is better. But most folks aren't going to blow snow at different elevations, nor are they going to be needing every ounce of power that the motor is capable of producing in order to get out of a hole to keep from spending the night somewhere unpleasantly cold. 

I haven't had any issues with the system on my Husky being open loop, even considering the fact that I'm running a system originally designed for summer operation in the winter with an aftermarket exhaust and a nearly wide open snow intake. 

Stihl came out with a fuel injected chainsaw, they can't keep those on the shelves. Pro fallers are pretty stoked with them, no major issues. Though the way Stihl rolls out their saws, they're on the European market for a couple of years before they're available in the US. 

From what I've seen in the powersports world, when stuff goes wrong with EFI, normal people can fix it. It's just parts swapping. Diagnosing problems is different, for sure. But just the same as there's a ton of info on this forum on fixing carb issues, there'll be people figuring out how to fix EFI issues. Technology evolves and changes, so should humans. 

What's that you ask? Did I buy an EFI Ariens last year when I bought a new blower? Heavens no, but that's because I had my eye on the 32" Rapidtrack, and it came with a carb.


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## crazzywolfie (Jun 2, 2014)

I almost feel like electric snowblowers will be more mainstream before they get the efi sorted out and more reliable


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## JLawrence08648 (Jan 15, 2017)

With EFI, is there a fuel pump, gravity fed? Isn't there some fuel in the system to allow the fuel to go old and clog? Fuel sitting in the fuel injection jet or nozzle?


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

JLawrence08648 said:


> With EFI, is there a fuel pump, gravity fed? Isn't there some fuel in the system to allow the fuel to go old and clog? Fuel sitting in the fuel injection jet or nozzle?


Fuel pump, throttle body/injector, ECM and a few sensors, and that's it. Fuel can't dry and gum in the lines or injector (no exposure to air or the outside), so no, nothing to clog (same as long term parking a car).

Carbs clog because they are open to the air, and fuel evaporates/oxidizes . . .


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## GoBlowSnow (Sep 4, 2015)

bzied said:


> The Honda EU7000IS Generator is a GX 390 with FI and I have not seen much negativity associated with its operation. Many are used commercially and many for residential backups, that are intermittently relied upon, without troubles. This generator has been around for some time now. I am wondering why Honda has not incorporated it for their snowblower?


Yeah but that's a generator which is not used in the same way and under the same conditions as a snow blower.


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## jherbicide (Oct 14, 2021)

tadawson said:


> Fuel pump, throttle body/injector, ECM and a few sensors, and that's it. Fuel can't dry and gum in the lines or injector (no exposure to air or the outside), so no, nothing to clog (same as long term parking a car).
> 
> Carbs clog because they are open to the air, and fuel evaporates/oxidizes . . .


Fuel can still evaporate out of an injection system. It’s why the pump(s) start running when key is on, before the starters turn. Where fuel evaporates, it leaves deposits. But it’s so little volume of fuel, and it isn’t replenished so it’s not a worry.

Water getting into the gas system is a big concern with engines that are unused. Yea, a much bigger concern within a carburetor itself, but it’s still a concern. It’s a big problem with boats (google ethanol and boats…)

An example. It is known and accepted If one keeps their “vented” equipment in a climate moderated environment, even in an unheated garage, It helps a lot with this. Temperature swings cause condensation: Condensation when the fuel/tank is colder than the air. Just like frost and dew. If the air inside the tank is “sealed,” it can only deposit a little amount of water in the gas. But, if it is vented, it will deposit its water, then become lighter than the air outside of the tank, therefore exchanging itself and repeating the cycle.

if the system is sealed, none of this is any concern.


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## Mountain Man (Oct 14, 2018)

I like efi in equipment that runs a lot, vehicles, commercial mowing, high mileage snowmobile riding, etc. You get good starting and fuel economy. But I wont buy it on a machine that may run, literally, a few hours a season.


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## jherbicide (Oct 14, 2021)

Mountain Man said:


> I like efi in equipment that runs a lot, vehicles, commercial mowing, high mileage snowmobile riding, etc. You get good starting and fuel economy. But I wont buy it on a machine that may run, literally, a few hours a season.


I’m in the same boat. For me personally there is virtually no benefit in a snowblower, only potential issues. The benefits just don’t outweigh the risks. 

Even if the chance of failure is remote, if it happens you might experience extended downtime while you wait either for parts or service. For at least me personally, there is essentially no realistic possibility of a carb failure that would cause extended downtime. There are multiple points of potential catastrophic failure on EFI.

I’ve never had a carb problem that wasn’t fixable with a quick (hour or less) cleaning of a carb.

The isolated reports of trouble here are enough to keep me away in snowblowers. At least for now.


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

jherbicide said:


> Fuel can still evaporate out of an injection system. It’s why the pump(s) start running when key is on, before the starters turn. Where fuel evaporates, it leaves deposits. But it’s so little volume of fuel, and it isn’t replenished so it’s not a worry.
> 
> Water getting into the gas system is a big concern with engines that are unused. Yea, a much bigger concern within a carburetor itself, but it’s still a concern. It’s a big problem with boats (google ethanol and boats…)
> 
> ...


Uh, no . . . evaporation needs somewhere to evaporate _to_, which does not exist in a closed EFI system. Oh, and the pump runs because injectors need pressure to fire, not to replace volume . . .


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## jherbicide (Oct 14, 2021)

tadawson said:


> Uh, no . . . evaporation needs somewhere to evaporate _to_, which does not exist in a closed EFI system. Oh, and the pump runs because injectors need pressure to fire, not to replace volume . . .











I can’t speak of LCT’s system, but practically all vehicle systems have two places the fuel “in the lines” and system can evaporate to:

1. the return line to the tank (yes, the excess fuel pumped in and not consumed by the injectors is returned to the tank)

2. the injector nozzle orifices themselves; they’ll be more likely to “leak down” than evaporate though. The system is not “airtight,” it can’t be or it wouldn’t be able to squirt fuel. 

The pumps run before starting to make sure the system is charged and pressurized. If there was no leaking/evaporation, there wouldn’t be a need to “pre charge.”

Information on “leak down:”






TA-11 Fuel Press Leak Down


Fuel Pressure Leak Down Test




performancefuelsystems.com


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## ChrisJ (Nov 27, 2014)

The last few cars I've owned had returnless systems, so no return line to the tank.
On direct injected systems a leaking injector while the engine is off would be very undesirable.

A system that runs at a fairly decent pressure, 50+ PSI could easily need to re-pressurize when first started if it bleeds back a little through the pump while off. Just because it drops to say 20 PSI, doesn't mean it pulled air in or anything evaporated. I don't know what direct injection engines run at.

@jherbicide The system can squirt fuel because it's valves open and close. Just because it can spray fuel doesn't mean it leaks. I have 88 year old steel valves on refrigerators that I use and they are 100% air tight when closed even under a vacuum.

I don't know how liquid tight fuel injection systems are, but I do know valves can easily be made gas and liquid tight. It's also not very hard to be more air tight than a vented float bowl.


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## jherbicide (Oct 14, 2021)

ChrisJ said:


> The last few cars I've owned had returnless systems, so no return line to the tank.
> On direct injected systems a leaking injector while the engine is off would be very undesirable.
> 
> A system that runs at a fairly decent pressure, 50+ PSI could easily need to re-pressurize when first started if it bleeds back a little through the pump while off. Just because it drops to say 20 PSI, doesn't mean it pulled air in or anything evaporated. I don't know what direct injection engines run at.
> ...


Interesting, I thought the returnless stuff was niche market, but it appears it’s becoming more standard. 

Read the link I provided regarding leak down. They all leak somewhat, as they lose pressure. Losing pressure = a leak, and a leak means the fuel is leaving the system. But it doesn’t mean that leak is problematic. Maybe a better term is “bleed down.”

The DI diesels I was familiar with all had return lines, and at least two pumps, some had three, maybe most if memory serves correctly.

But, all this stuff is really just academic to the question at hand. As I Previously noted, There isn’t enough fuel in the lines/pumps/injectors to cause problems with deposits. Unless of course the base fuel is really bad, which returns me to the question of if (ok, how…) the tanks are vented.


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## jherbicide (Oct 14, 2021)

For those interested, here is the EFI pages from the Ariens Service Manual. I'm guessing the LCT system is a return style system, but the return line and pressure regulator are internal to the fuel pump: there isn't a separate return line or pressure regulator. I'm guessing it uses something similar to this fuel pump for pressure control:










I don't think its a true "returnless" system, for two reasons:

1. Because its more complex (expensive) than a return system. Requires a variable speed pump, and an analog (variable) pressure sensor; versus a digital (on/off) pressure sensor that simply says "I am at specified pressure, or I am not at specified pressure."

2. The service manual only refers to fixed voltages when checking the fuel pump, it does not appear to be a variable speed pump. *see pages 6-7 (76-77) in attachment.


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

jherbicide said:


> View attachment 183772
> 
> I can’t speak of LCT’s system, but practically all vehicle systems have two places the fuel “in the lines” and system can evaporate to:
> 
> ...


You overlook the detail that even if the tank has air in it, if it is not constantly replaced (IE sealed system), the fuel will reach a saturated vapor pressure, and no more evaporation can occur. Note also, that the return line is flooded, and not an airspace in your example (which is irrelevant to th?e LCT system anyhow, that has no return). Solenoid injectors pretty much seal when they are not powered, and while there may be a few drops as pressure goes down (more likely back out the pump, though . . . ) that there still isn't really any ingres path for air to allow eveporation, unlike the fully vented float bowl in a carb.


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

jherbicide said:


> For those interested, here is the EFI pages from the Ariens Service Manual. I'm guessing the LCT system is a return style system, but the return line and pressure regulator are internal to the fuel pump: there isn't a separate return line or pressure regulator. I'm guessing it uses something similar to this fuel pump for pressure control:
> 
> View attachment 183786
> 
> ...


No, returnless simply requires a relief/bypass valve in the pump that opens when pressure is reached. Kinda like a return within the pump . . . The LCT is tamk->pump->injector, nothing else . . . . There is also a fuel pressure sensor, which is likely used to adjust injector timing based on actual pressure seen, and as I recall, that is also in the throttle body with the injector. (I don't have it on my tablet at the moment, but my source for this info is the Ariens/LCT EFI service manual.)

This system really is quite simple compared to the EPA mandated nightmares on cars and such . . .


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## GeorgePowell (Mar 17, 2019)

Nan_wpg said:


> Although my 1981 mastercraft is still working. I’m really wanting a new Ariens platinum 24. And it’s looking like next year may be the time. Old blower will be delegated to the backyard for the deck.
> 
> EFI was pretty new but it’s been out for a while. I don’t see a lot of bad posts. Maybe because it’s still too new??
> 
> ...


Have had my efi deluxe 30 for 2 years now, it has replaced a 15 year old JD 928e. Absolutely no problems. I just charge it 2-3 times over the summer and it starts right away. Before using it l replaced the skid with the nylon ones and love auto steer. Chute is bigger and has never blocked and l hit some serious slush. Also tackled hard packed snow that had drifted to the same height as my wifes elantra. ...just wish it came with drift cutters. That's the next purchase. I added a 1/2 X3X 27 in. bar on top for weight. ( $20 plus paint


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## jherbicide (Oct 14, 2021)

tadawson said:


> You overlook the detail that even if the tank has air in it, if it is not constantly replaced (IE sealed system), the fuel will reach a saturated vapor pressure, and no more evaporation can occur. Note also, that the return line is flooded, and not an airspace in your example (which is irrelevant to th?e LCT system anyhow, that has no return). Solenoid injectors pretty much seal when they are not powered, and while there may be a few drops as pressure goes down (more likely back out the pump, though . . . ) that there still isn't really any ingres path for air to allow eveporation, unlike the fully vented float bowl in a carb.


That’s the few hundred dollar question… if the fuel tank is sealed or not…

If the tank is conventionally vented, that saturation will never occur because its constantly exchanging gases with the external environment. (See my previous posts…) As I’ve said, in a sealed* tank it’s not an issue.

No matter what you say, if fuel is going out it is displaced by something (air). You say yourself “pretty much.” In theory it would hold pressure, but it’s not perfect in practice. But… As I’ve said multiple times it’s academic because of the amount of fuel.


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

I believe the cap has a one way vent - intake only - to avoid pulling a vacuum. This will not allow "breathing" in the tank with temperature cycling. If air is coming in only, saturation is trivial to achieve, and even if it was not, _still_ will not allow evaporation from the injectors/fuel circuit, since they will be submerged unless the tank goes dry.

Unlike a fully vented carb . . . the difference is obvious . . .


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## jherbicide (Oct 14, 2021)

tadawson said:


> No, returnless simply requires a relief/bypass valve in the pump that opens when pressure is reached. Kinda like a return within the pump . . . The LCT is tamk->pump->injector, nothing else . . . . There is also a fuel pressure sensor, which is likely used to adjust injector timing based on actual pressure seen, and as I recall, that is also in the throttle body with the injector. (I don't have it on my tablet at the moment, but my source for this info is the Ariens/LCT EFI service manual.)
> 
> This system really is quite simple compared to the EPA mandated nightmares on cars and such . . .


Relief/Bypass: Just like pictured and how I explained in the previous post (hint: it is a return, there is just no visible exterior line. The extra fuel has to go somewhere, this is basic physics. See "Fuel Return" from this Bosch picture:












Regarding the components, there are more parts than you are claiming: See previous posts attached manual, page 1:










For the fuel pressure sensor, I would wager it is a digital (on/off at a certain pressure setpoint). There isn't a good reason for an analog sensor. 

EFI systems normally operate at a fixed pressure, for these reasons:

1. The pressure control valve/relief (whatever you want to call it) would need to be adjustable, versus a fixed setting. Again, this is possible, but would need additional controls and complexity. (read: cost)

2. If more fuel is required, the injector can just be held open longer (longer electronic pulse time = more fuel spray)


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## jherbicide (Oct 14, 2021)

tadawson said:


> I believe the cap has a one way vent - intake only - to avoid pulling a vacuum. This will not allow "breathing" in the tank with temperature cycling. If air is coming in only, saturation is trivial to achieve, and even if it was not, _still_ will not allow evaporation from the injectors/fuel circuit, since they will be submerged unless the tank goes dry.
> 
> Unlike a fully vented carb . . . the difference is obvious . . .


That is the question I have... Is it a one way check valve, or is it a vent. Again, I mentioned this point in a previous post.

An easy way to check is just set it out in on a warm day, and after it warms up open the cap. If its a one way valve, the tank will release pressure when opened, just like if a sealed gas can is left in the sun. (I can't answer this because I don't own one) _EDIT: I have doubts that it is a true one way valve, it would have to vent at a certain overpressure or it would cause problems with the rest of the EFI system. So it may be a check valve with a pressure relief._

*Regarding the injector/submersion comment*...

If they allow the injectors to stay wet, that would eventually bleed the tank dry , that would be about the worst case scenario you would want, and here is why:

-A tiny amount of gas evaporates, which leaves an even tinier amount of deposits (or varnish).
-If no gas comes in to replace it, no big deal, there won't be much deposits/varnish.

-BUT... If you allow the evaporating cycle to continue by allowing more gas to replenish the evaporated gas, the deposits/varnish will continue to increase.
----This is why carb bowls fill with varnish if they aren't emptied or shutoff valves used. Of course with a healthy EFI system it will happen at a much slower pace. With all that said though, I bet *know* the fuel pump when off acts as a shutoff valve, and won't let any gas by (if healthy); if it did, eventually all your fuel could end up in the crankcase...

Because of this will still eventually go dry in storage. Gas evaporates, and outside of theory those things are not perfectly sealed. Again, see previous posts, including link regarding acceptable leak down rates in FI.

This is the long explanation of why whether or not the fuel evaporates out of the injectors is an academic question.


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## BullFrog (Oct 14, 2015)

Nan_wpg said:


> Although my 1981 mastercraft is still working. I’m really wanting a new Ariens platinum 24. And it’s looking like next year may be the time. Old blower will be delegated to the backyard for the deck.
> 
> EFI was pretty new but it’s been out for a while. I don’t see a lot of bad posts. Maybe because it’s still too new??
> 
> ...


For anyone keeping score EFI is not a feature I'd look for on OPE. In fact if the only difference between model A and model B were the fuel delivery system I'd choose the carbed one as it works good enough and less complex.


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

jherbicide said:


> Relief/Bypass: Just like pictured and how I explained in the previous post (hint: it is a return, there is just no visible exterior line. The extra fuel has to go somewhere, this is basic physics. See "Fuel Return" from this Bosch picture:
> 
> View attachment 183792
> 
> ...


I was speaking to the FRU level . . . and, your list pretty much shows exactly what I said . . . baro and air temp sensors are on the ECU, and the servo, injector, and 2 ssensors are part of the throttle body. Didn't mention the filter, since not an active part . . . You were also spewing some nonsense about variable speed pumps until I mentioned a mechanical relief . . . also can't think of any reason why they wouldn't use a real prssure sensor, but the docs are not specific, so ???


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

jherbicide said:


> That is the question I have... Is it a one way check valve, or is it a vent. Again, I mentioned this point in a previous post.
> 
> An easy way to check is just set it out in on a warm day, and after it warms up open the cap. If its a one way valve, the tank will release pressure when opened, just like if a sealed gas can is left in the sun. (I can't answer this because I don't own one) _EDIT: I have doubts that it is a true one way valve, it would have to vent at a certain overpressure or it would cause problems with the rest of the EFI system. So it may be a check valve with a pressure relief._
> 
> ...


Uh, earth to guy who is way too enamored of his perceived kmowledge . . . . _ALL_ injectors stay wet! They don't like going dry . . car, mower, whatever! Not under pressure, but wet! And apparently leakage (if any at all) isn't a prohlem, or engines would be hydrolocking left and right . . . (For that matter, short of draining the fuel system and blowing out the lines, how exactly do you propose to have dry injectors? Thimk about it! The concept is nonsensical! Heck, on a lot of auto systems, hours and even days after shutdown, the lines still often are holding pressure, since correctly operating injectors _DON'T_ leak!)

Please stop trying to teach me what I already understand very clearly . . .


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## jherbicide (Oct 14, 2021)

Edit: removed original due to "ignoring" other poster.


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## Yanmar Ronin (Jan 31, 2015)

Call a truce and I'll buy us all a round of drinks. 🤞😎🍻


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## ChrisJ (Nov 27, 2014)

Yeah,
I'm not seeing air getting into a normal fuel injection system even after many months of sitting, or perhaps years.

But no need to get upset or mad. We're all friends here.


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## jherbicide (Oct 14, 2021)

ChrisJ said:


> Yeah,
> I'm not seeing air getting into a normal fuel injection system even after many months of sitting, or perhaps years.
> 
> But no need to get upset or mad. We're all friends here.


Yes its silly... Sorry for my part in it. We'll have to agree to disagree here. But to be clear, I am not claiming they dry out in hours or days, or anything like a carb. From the perspective of a snowblower that might sit 6-10 months without being turned used, and the bulk of that idle time being the hot summer months, *I* *believe* at least 'some' of the fuel is going to find its way out of the system, and this belief comes from my experiences with motorcycle EFI systems.

Again, this point is academic in nature, it doesn't really matter.

I took a deep dive in the LCT EFI system because it interested me, and I thought this would be a good place to share my findings and thoughts on the subject.


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## bisonp (Mar 23, 2018)

I've never had many issues with small engine carbs. An occasional cleaning and/or rebuild, neither of which is overly difficult to DIY. I like the idea of EFI but not with all the proprietary parts and electronics that nobody seems to know how to work on.


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## Ariensnewb (Oct 4, 2021)

no way to delete a post?

I wrote a rant and then posted it, and then thought better of it. Sorry to waste everyones time.


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## Yanmar Ronin (Jan 31, 2015)

Ariensnewb said:


> no way to delete a post?
> 
> I wrote a rant and then posted it, and then thought better of it. Sorry to waste everyones time.


Eh... it's OK to lose it once in a while. BTDT.

Which post you want deleted, or just let it slip into the depths of forum sands...?

Steady on.


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

jherbicide said:


> Nonsense? I mentioned the pcv (relief) being internal to the pump before you did, I even provided a pictorial drawing of what it could look like!
> 
> Someone else (@ChrisJ) brought up a true returnless system, they require a modulating (ahem variable) pump.
> 
> ...


PCV : Positive Crankcase Ventilation, nothing to do with fuel delivery, it's an emission device.

*plonk*

Dawson out . . .


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## jherbicide (Oct 14, 2021)

Edit: removed original due to "ignoring" other poster.


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## Yanmar Ronin (Jan 31, 2015)

Please don't make me stop the car, guys... 

This has been and can continue to be a fruitful and informative discussion... sometimes it's _how_ you say it that counts.

Strike Two... Strike Three closes the thread.

Regards,


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## BazookaJoe (Oct 6, 2019)

EFI is very valuable for engine applications where the throttle position often changes and/or fuel efficiency is critical. Would I ever go back to a carbed car- not unless it was for an old collector car and I'd be looking for a way to swap in EFI. 
Like a poster earlier in this thread, I have a Polaris EFI sled (2013 Indy 600Sp) and it runs SO good compared to the carbed sleds before it. Crisp jetting every day, every time, perfect throttle response. Never going back to carbed sleds. I also have a 2019 Yamaha WR450F with EFI. This bike has the Yamaha Tuner App which allows me to tweak the EFI and ignition advance to alter the power delivery- it's a really cool feature. This is the second EFI dirtbike I've owned, and I would never go back to a carbed dirtbike.

Back to snowblowers... For the small amount of fuel used in my Ariens, the relatively few hours per year, AND the carbed engines start and run very well, I can't justify the potential issues. I'll stay with the simple systems for now.

But, for other folks who can't repair their own stuff, EFI probably has the perception of maintenance free and minimal troubles.


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## Toolboxhero (Dec 24, 2010)

jherbicide said:


> Interesting, Somewhere they are “lying.” From their manual, they use a vented cap, and I could have sworn I’ve seen a reference here that it uses a vented cap. I can’t locate it though. But here is a snapshot from their manual:
> 
> View attachment 183691
> 
> ...


These troubleshooting guides are very general and don't always - if ever - are specific for the snowblower on the cover page of the manual. For example. Husqvarna tractors are still using a lot of "boilerplate" from 15-20 years ago.
So, to be sure I suggest checking the part number of the fuel cap of the EFI engine to the part number of a carb engine cap.


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## Craigory (Nov 11, 2021)

Nan_wpg said:


> Although my 1981 mastercraft is still working. I’m really wanting a new Ariens platinum 24. And it’s looking like next year may be the time. Old blower will be delegated to the backyard for the deck.
> 
> EFI was pretty new but it’s been out for a while. I don’t see a lot of bad posts. Maybe because it’s still too new??
> 
> ...


The new Ariens are made with thin gauge sheet metal. You won’t be thrilled with it. If the old one works, replace the pulleys and belts and you’ll love it again.


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## buckyswider (Dec 18, 2020)

I'm admittedly biased, but I purchased my Deluxe 30 EFI _specifically_ because of EFI. (and it helps that the blue big box store had its whole supply of EFI machines tagged and priced as the carbureted model...something I didn't realize until after I got it home 

So here's the part that's gonna ruin my cred in these here forums. I started working on cars way back with my 1969 beetle. I've rebuilt engines, pulled engines from VWs (beetles and squareabacks and khombies _oh my_! ) and my brain just never latched on to the engineering behind combustion engines. Way too many moving parts and inefficiencies. It drove my feeble mind nuts. But I had to do it, as I was a poor college student and needed transportation. And the part that always gave me the most problems...the carburetor. And they continued to drive me nuts as I ventured into homeownership and had to buy small power tools- weed whackers, chain saws, lawnmowers, generators, leaf blowers, and of course snowblowers. And what always gave me the most grief? Carbs, of course. Now probably a lot of that was of my own doing. But still, they drove me crazy. And now I've even found a gas station about 40 minutes from me that sells ethanol-free fuel, so I take my collection of gas cans there every year to fill up (and even this I still use a 2-year dose of Sta-Bil). 

Today, the only gas guzzlers which remain in my arsenal are my generator, backpack blower, and this new snowthrower. Everything else is battery electric. Waiting for a decent battery backpack blower and then it will be two. 

So I never knew until two years ago that there were EFI snowthrowers on the market. I was struggling with my generic red 26" ("White Outdoor") with a Tecumseh engine. Never ran right from day one. Had it in the shop at least four times to no avail. Due to the layout of my driveway, I can only throw one direction- and at the points where the driveway widens, I would have to do a "double pass"- throw from the far side about as far as it would go, then go over it again to clear the driveway. I even used old tires to install "zero clearance" impeller thingies. So when I was walking into the big box store, they had the Deluxe 30 EFI out front with the big sign in the bucket saying "Electronic Fuel Injection!" I was sold almost from the outset. Was more than I really wanted to pay for a machine, and I didn't even know at that point that it really should've been $300 more! 

So aside from the augers being on the wrong side from the factory, this has been a spectacular machine engine wise. Turn it on, listen to the fuel pump hiss for a second or two, and has always started up first pull. And runs like a top.

Sure, it's only been two years, and I may end up eating my words, but so far I'm elated with my purchase. It's not perfect- really, really, REALLY stupid design for the battery charge "port" that could've been designed so much better (in fact, I may order both of those connectors involved in the process because inevitably one will break when I connect/disconnect). And I really can't fathom how the control board under the dashboard is just unprotected and open to the elements. Seems like a moisture failure waiting to happen. But if I had to do it all over again, I'd absolutely get an EFI again (that is until a battery unit is made that meets my needs). 

Now let me go put my kevlar underwear on to fend off the flames that will surely be coming my way soon...😆


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## jherbicide (Oct 14, 2021)

buckyswider said:


> I'm admittedly biased, but I purchased my Deluxe 30 EFI _specifically_ because of EFI. (and it helps that the blue big box store had its whole supply of EFI machines tagged and priced as the carbureted model...something I didn't realize until after I got it home
> 
> So here's the part that's gonna ruin my cred in these here forums. I started working on cars way back with my 1969 beetle. I've rebuilt engines, pulled engines from VWs (beetles and squareabacks and khombies _oh my_! ) and my brain just never latched on to the engineering behind combustion engines. Way too many moving parts and inefficiencies. It drove my feeble mind nuts. But I had to do it, as I was a poor college student and needed transportation. And the part that always gave me the most problems...the carburetor. And they continued to drive me nuts as I ventured into homeownership and had to buy small power tools- weed whackers, chain saws, lawnmowers, generators, leaf blowers, and of course snowblowers. And what always gave me the most grief? Carbs, of course. Now probably a lot of that was of my own doing. But still, they drove me crazy. And now I've even found a gas station about 40 minutes from me that sells ethanol-free fuel, so I take my collection of gas cans there every year to fill up (and even this I still use a 2-year dose of Sta-Bil).
> 
> ...


That ECU under the dash bothers me too. If it were me, I'd pop those connectors off and give them all a healthy dose of dielectric grease on both sides (connection and wire side), to help keep moisture out.

I might come off as an EFI hater, which I'm not. I'm just skeptical of LCT's execution of the system. For a snowblower after a snowstorm, personally I would rather curse at a plugged up carb for an hour or so, than curse for days waiting on the UPS truck to deliver new EFI parts.


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## NOS (Dec 3, 2021)

Hi first time caller long time listener here....
I had a hard long look at the EFI system when it came out and have not made my mind up yet. I do wish it had a o2 sensor and ran in a closed loop. I don't like the location of the ECM and there is not much there you can fix if it goes haywire.

I do like the servo on the throttle body.
Tough call....

Parts are expensive for it and its all Chinese parts so who knows where you will be in 10 years

A real confession is I looked at the Ariens when it came out because I wanted to graft the electronics into a generator.

We had some snow this week almost enough to justify firing up a blower. So I fired up old smokey ( an MTD branded Canadian tire unit from sometime before emissions so my guess is 1990 ). It ran well but the carb and points give me a little fart and miss now and then ( just like every other single Tecumseh it seems ).
My Toro powershift suffers from a more frequent fart and miss but I like the machine so much I keep it in reserve for those heavy snow drifts when the plow goes by. ( but its tired and I can't bring myself to buy parts to fix those tecumseh engines)
I pushed home a yardwork with an LCT 277 GX clone. Its a junk machine but I like the high output lighting package enough for hand warmers.....
Maybe handwarmers, injection and LED lights upgrade for the Toro....

Change is coming maybe get used to the idea of have a spare in the reserve fleet when technology lets you down.
I think they call people like me with that mindset hoarders...


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## LouC (Dec 5, 2016)

That would be me lol 
For my 1998 Toro I have the following spares:
Complete long block 
Electric starter
Muffler
Carb
Paddles
Drive belt
Etc
All that cost less that a replacement engine for the new made in China wonders!


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## NOS (Dec 3, 2021)

Those Chinese engines are a wonder. Cast iron bore, balls bearing crank OHV...


I would like to get a set of front augers for my 10/28 power shift. The previous owner pushed it to the street but before she did she ran the unit until the slides were worn out and then the auger started to wear even the edge of the bucket! Still works but its pretty worn out

Chinese engines:
I have a head of a Loncin 301( also known as Predator in USA ) I welded up to shrink the combustion chamber. Its got big valves and large ports nicely shaped. One day I will put that on a GX240 Honda I have to burn natural gas.... Or at the very least to run premium if I can get it to 9:1 compression from the Dismal 7.9:1 it has now.


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## NOS (Dec 3, 2021)

You know I was over this whole EFI thing a couple of years ago, but then I spied this thread and you guys have me chasing the rabbit down the hole again










Where I went wrong on this was trying to use the Chinese crank and governor parts with the Honda engine. This is a GX240 grafted to a 1960s Kohler exciter cranked generator and some Chinese internal parts.
The EFI system from the 306 LCT if grafted to this would eliminate the head ache causing mechanicals and give me a new window on idle control options other than the solenoid systems.

This works great though, starts well pulls like a Gorila. I just don't have a governor I trust in it.( also so counter ballance sjhafty but a 240 on rubber mounts does not need it anymore than the original Kohler K 181 power unit on it )


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## clintangus (3 mo ago)

EFI has been around for generations now. Given Honda's legendary and well earned reputation for going with only highly reliable, proven, trusted and time tested components, and their vast experience with EFIs in their cars and bikes, do you not think that they would have offered Honda snow blowers with EFI by now, if current EFI technology made it possible to design an EFI system that would work better and more reliably than a carburetor, in a snow blower?


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## tabora (Mar 1, 2017)

clintangus said:


> do you not think that they would have offered Honda snow blowers with EFI by now, if current EFI technology made it possible to design an EFI that would work better and more reliably than a carburettor, in a snow blower?


Honda has an effective EFI system in the EU7000is inverter generator, but has not yet seen the need to migrate it into the GX snow engines. The increasingly strict CARB restrictions may make it happen, or may induce Honda to abandon the small engine market altogether. Only time will tell, because Honda won't (at least not yet).


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## ChrisJ (Nov 27, 2014)

clintangus said:


> EFI has been around for generations now. Given Honda's legendary and well earned reputation for going with only highly reliable, proven, trusted and time tested components, and their vast experience with EFIs in their cars and bikes, do you not think that they would have offered Honda snow blowers with EFI by now,* if current EFI technology made it possible to design an EFI system that would work better and more reliably than a carburetor*, in a snow blower?


Even 1980's EFI technology does this. 
It's cost prohibitive. For everyone, including Honda.


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## jherbicide (Oct 14, 2021)

ChrisJ said:


> Even 1980's EFI technology does this.
> It's cost prohibitive. For everyone, including Honda.


I agree. I doubt a high quality, reliable system a la sleds, Sthil, would be marketable for a snowblower. It would put the price point of the machine too high.

-The EFI Sthil ms 500 system costs $500 more than the comparative saws. (although reviews often says it puts this saw into a class of its own). Sure EFI might make a performance difference, but for a snowblower so does a larger but heavier engine; no one cares if a snowblower weighs a few pounds more. A chainsaw is an entirely different story.
-Sleds/snowmobiles, motorbikes, etc. have a lot more headroom (and sales volumes!) $ wise to allow good EFI systems.


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## Nan_wpg (Jan 15, 2015)

For me it was a price issue. The EFI machine costs 800 cdn more. I can get the EFI,replacement parts for 386 cdn.
if the EFI machine was 386 more than it’d be more attractive to me. I guess the wire harnesses, and fuses, and maybe the ignition/key thing, and throttle control cost money too, but you also save on the internal governor sstuff.


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