# Auger drive belt lifespan...



## Steveo66 (Jan 21, 2018)

Back in Nov I replaced the auger drive belt on my 1990s era Craftsman 10hp 30" blower (old one was was worn and slipping bad) with a new Dayco AP38 belt, as was suggested as one option in another thread on this forum. All was great until yesterday, when I believed I either broke or sufficiently wore out the belt such that the auger just spins freely when push it by hand. And nothing happens at all when engaging the drive. I will take the belt cover off and look but the fact that it is spinning that freely suggests the belt broke or jumped off the pulleys if that is even possible?

In any case, my question comes down to the applicability of this belt for this application. Yes it is the correct size when you compare all the v-belt dimensions vs the OEM specs, but as others have suggested, the OEM or equivalent belts are perhaps built with kevlar and more suited to this type of application where the belt engagement is acting as a clutch vs a regular belt that runs with the same tension all the time. Being a standard automotive belt, I would think the Dayco option falls into the latter category and not really meant or designed to be used with in a tensioner / clutch application. 

Either way though, knowing the design of this belt tensioner based auger engagement mechanism, I do not abuse things, and generally will try to engage the auger at lower RPMs and without a snow load, so as to minimize wear and stress on the belt. I also keep the auger engaged as much as possible vs contstant stop/start. So all that said, still very surprised this belt seems to have let go after just a couple months and about 5 or so moderate (not even heavy) uses.

Anyone else out there have experience / comments with such "automotive class" belts vs the OEM for this application? 

Thanks! And I will post a follow-up shortly once I pull the belt cover and have a better idea of what is going on with the belt.


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## Oneacer (Jan 3, 2011)

Sounds like either the wrong belt. or something is askew in the belt track system.


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## JLawrence08648 (Jan 15, 2017)

Regardless of Kevlar or not, you could get 10-30 years from a belt, you could get less, but not a few snows or a few weeks, depending on how much snow you get, how often, how deep, how wet.

You need to use mower/blower belts, not auto belts. The side cut angle is different.

Everything needs to be aligned. The belt tension needs to be correct. When not engaged, and some slapping, when engaged almost no slapping or none. Make sure you have belt stays.

I find some belts have an inconsistent belt length. My favorite belts are Pix and D&D Power.

I believe the correct auger belt for Murray is 585416.


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## vinnycom (Nov 6, 2017)

on my 2nd year on a ap38 from carquest, put on for drive and auger with different size, both still run good but ive not taken a look at them yet, afaik its not listed as a typical "fan" belt but are listed as an industrial power belt.
@ ~$6 iirc i figured i'd test them out, no slippage as far as i can tell


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## Homesteader (Jan 12, 2019)

Auger belts should be live/raw edge belts. Replacement belts wrapped in Kevlar fail early because they don’t have the same gripping force as raw edge and the pulleys glaze and shred wrapped belts.

Wrapped belts are better for systems with constant tension such as drive belts. 

Auger belts are engaged constantly and must grab the pulley at 3600 rpm and not slip. Wrapped belts tend to shred in this situation because the slip more getting up to speed and under load.


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## skutflut (Oct 16, 2015)

You did not mention if the impeller and impeller shaft are also spinning freely when you move the auger rakes.

If the auger spins freely, I think you probably have a broken shear pin. Even with a broken belt, the augers shouldn't spin freely, as they are connected to the impeller shaft through the gearbox. 

If both sides of the auger spin free, and no shear pins are broken, then maybe the gearbox is stripped or the key that holds the auger shaft to the gear has broken. That would be confirmed if the augers are free wheeling but the impeller shaft is not moving.


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## Steveo66 (Jan 21, 2018)

Hi All, here is an update -- and thanks for all the replies. 

I pulled the belt cover yesterday afternoon for a closer look. Definitely the belt and not a shear pin. Best way I can describe the condition of the belt is areas of shredding as mentioned by Homesteader, and almost broken in one area. I have attached a pic below. I put on a new Dayco AP38 belt, since when I bought the one in November of last year, I picked up a spare too. I decided to test with the belt cover still off in to check for slackness, etc and noticed that even at idle with the auger drive NOT engaged there was still enough friction that the auger was turning, even though the belt was not tight. To me, this is an indication of an adjustment issue on the idler pulley and/or the cable mechanism to engage the drive. Perhaps, this is where I made my mistake in November, as I had adjusted both, but after putting back the belt cover and without testing. I assume things were adjusted too tight, and this was a primary factor in the early belt failure, although I have to say, when I installed the new belt in Nov and made adjustments, even though I did not test with the belt cover off, I am sure I would have noticed if the auger/impeller were turning, even slightly with the drive not being engaged. The other factor is most likely the belt itself, that even though the correct size, not the right type for this application. As Homesteader mentions, I will look to source a live/raw edge belt -- anyone know if the Pix or D&D Power belts as mentioned by JLawrence08648 are of this design?


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## Steveo66 (Jan 21, 2018)

Steveo66 said:


> Hi All, here is an update -- and thanks for all the replies.


Had some additional time this morning, so here is another update I thought I would share after some further investigation.

It would seem that the Dayco L440 belt (same size 1/2" by 38") is the better suited belt for this application. I spoke to Carquest and subsequently to Dayco customer service and also found the following info online as per the pic attached, and this L4 series from Dayco is designed for outdoor lawn & garden equipment with belt clutching and back idler pulley for tension - which is exactly what these snowblowers do. I am not partial to Dayco in any way, as they are just one manufacturer, but since my original belt was a Dayco (AP38) I thought I would start there. When I also questioned the Dayco guy on a raw edge belt option, he did indicate that their AX series belts are just that, but he then went on to say that the L series belts are the preferred option in this scenario. Food for thought though. 

I do hope this info helps, and would be interested in any follow-up discussion on the raw edge belt design.


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## Shaw351 (Nov 15, 2016)

Belt adjustment is a key priority, many people are not aware of this important step. You can install a belt and it works, but not properly adjusted it WILL fail sooner than expected. Depending on your particular machine the adjustments are similar but different. One of the most common mistakes on older ariens machines I've seen is the fingers for the auger belt adjustment are not correct. You need to have them set so when in the slack position there is enough clearance around the engine pulley to let the belt move away and not touch it at all. Improperly adjusted it may still do it's job..... but if it rubs / slightly touches but not enough to rotate the auger it will burn up over time or damage the belt all the time engine is running and not having the auger engaged. Happens when you just let the engine run and machine sits idle, like when you stop blowing to move something or clean off the stairs and finish the walkway. Just my own observations from working on older stuff.


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## Kiss4aFrog (Nov 3, 2013)

Have you tired spinning and also wiggling that tensioner pulley to make sure the bearing in it is good ? It seems from the photo it's not in alignment but it might be the camera angle too.

.


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## SnowH8ter (Oct 8, 2018)

Replaced the belts on the old Mastercraft when she was 10 years old and with about 300 hrs of run time. The old belts weren't too badly worn (surprisingly), and were replaced with OEM MTD conventional v-belts. Eleven yrs further down the road and another 300 hrs of run time, I reckoned that the belts needed to go. I actually purchased them before I examined the old ones and was even more surprised to find the used belts a little worn, but not nearly a bad as the first time they were changed out. Again, the replacements were conventional (old stock) MTD v-belts. The old belts probably could have gone another 10 yrs. I've noticed that many of the myriad so-called OE replacement belts of late are of the cogged (toothed) design. I'm not sure why this is because it's apparent to me that conventional v-belts worked just fine, thank you. And the Mastercraft was never babied - she was pushed hard throughout her time and earned her keep.


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## Homesteader (Jan 12, 2019)

Lawn/garden supply cashiers are not dealer technicians. 

I don’t ask Autozone cashier what’s best for my car because they are also not certified mechanics. They are armchair experts these cashiers. They only know what sells well not what your machine should have. 

Snow blowers are sold with live raw edge belts because the engineers who designed them knew that’s what it should have. 

Don’t go with wrapped belts because a cashier said you should.


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## Steveo66 (Jan 21, 2018)

Kiss4aFrog said:


> Have you tired spinning and also wiggling that tensioner pulley to make sure the bearing in it is good ? It seems from the photo it's not in alignment but it might be the camera angle too. .


Yes, I did check that with the belt off, and while things were apart, and the idler pulley spins freely as it shoiuld. The reason that things look out of alignment in the photo is due to the fact that you have to separate slightly the top of the blower housing from the engine/transmission housing to replace the belt, With the housing's back together I did check alignment of the engine pulley, idler pulley and auger pulley and all looks good. When putting things back together the other day, I also backed off the idler pulley a fair bit (nearly all the way ) and re-tightened. When I initially installed the first new belt in November I had adjusted the idler pulley almost all the way in the other direction so that I had good tension on the belt with the auger drive engaged, but in hindsight, I believe I did not leave enough slack, which was one of the factors in the early belt failure. I gave it a decent run last night cleaning up an area on the back patio that I did not get to the other day and it seems to be running good.


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## Steveo66 (Jan 21, 2018)

Homesteader said:


> Lawn/garden supply cashiers are not dealer technicians. I don’t ask Autozone cashier what’s best for my car because they are also not certified mechanics. They are armchair experts these cashiers. .


Completely agree with your comment.. however, in my case, it was not the retailer (Carquest) folks I spoke to, but rather Dayco Customer Service / tech support - Dayco is the manufacturer of the belts I am referring to - AP38 and L440. The guy I spoke to was very helpful and also very knowledgeable on belts, and it was he who gave me the recommendation from the manufacturer perspective. Also, his guidance seemed to be consistent with information I have seen online and as per my previous post. Not trying to refute what you are saying on the raw edge options, but rather just passing on what he has told me. Switching gears to my lawn tractor, which has a similar type belt clutch design for the mower deck engagement, the OEM belt looks to be a kevlar wrapped type of construction.


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## Homesteader (Jan 12, 2019)

Im all for aftermarket parts, but I go for what the machines manufacturer designed the machine to have. I’ve never seen a OEM snowblower belt Kevlar wrapped. The live edge belts still have Kevlar, instead they are just cords inside.
A parts manufacturer isn’t an engineer who designed the machine so I wouldn’t listen to them either, IMHO.

I’m trying to save you from more shredded Kevlar wrapped belts. 

Although it’s the same theoretical application - idle pulleys and clutch -Lawnmowers aren’t encountering the same loads or rpm. Lawnmowers spin their blades around 2900-3200rpm a close 1:1 ratio blade/engine rpm. Maybe under a pound or two each blade and little to no stress unless going through tall wet grass. Your lawnmower manufacturer chose Kevlar wrapped and that must have been the best option for a lawn application.

Snow blowers have impellers moving 1000-1200 rpm - 3:1 reduction ratio - moving a 60-100 lbs impeller with attached auger and under a load of 60-80 tons of snow an hour - significant stresses and a much higher load application.

Some blowers have dual impeller pulleys to handle the loads. 

The Murray 58531ma is a 1/2x38 live/raw edge belt used on many 10-12hp single pulley Murray, Nona, Snapper, Simplicity and Craftsman blowers from the early 90’s.

I use this belt on a 12hp Ariens with a 32” cut and it’s held up very well.

https://www.jackssmallengines.com/jacks-parts-lookup/part/murray/585416ma


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## Steveo66 (Jan 21, 2018)

Homesteader said:


> Im all for aftermarket parts, but I go for what the machines manufacturer designed the machine to have. I’ve never seen a OEM snowblower belt Kevlar wrapped. The live edge belts still have Kevlar, instead they are just cords inside. A parts manufacturer isn’t an engineer who designed the machine so I wouldn’t listen to them either, IMHO. I’m trying to save you from more shredded Kevlar wrapped belts.


Very interesting, that additional insight helps. I don't have an OEM belt to physically look at, so I went back and searched as best I could online for pics / specs of my OEM belt (Murray 313847MA ) and as far as I can tell it is of the raw edge construction vs Kevlar wrapped. Interesting as you point out that the aftermarket guys don't seem to be suggesting this! Thanks again for sharing.


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## franks (Mar 9, 2021)

JLawrence08648 said:


> Regardless of Kevlar or not, you could get 10-30 years from a belt, you could get less, but not a few snows or a few weeks, depending on how much snow you get, how often, how deep, how wet.
> 
> You need to use mower/blower belts, not auto belts. The side cut angle is different.
> 
> ...


I have a murray 29 inch snowblower and was thinking of buying the d and d power belts. did you have good luck with them? are they good quality and hold up?


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## JLawrence08648 (Jan 15, 2017)

franks said:


> I have a murray 29 inch snowblower and was thinking of buying the d and d power belts. did you have good luck with them? are they good quality and hold up?


My choices in belts are D&D Power, Pix, and A&I Sports.


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## harry398 (Jun 22, 2021)

Homesteader said:


> Im all for aftermarket parts, but I go for what the machines manufacturer designed the machine to have. I’ve never seen a OEM snowblower belt Kevlar wrapped. The live edge belts still have Kevlar, instead they are just cords inside.
> A parts manufacturer isn’t an engineer who designed the machine so I wouldn’t listen to them either, IMHO.
> 
> I’m trying to save you from more shredded Kevlar wrapped belts.
> ...



this is always interesting to me. I also have spoken with dayco and other Belt manufacturers tech dept...online....and they never recomended a raw edge belt. I know the ariens and toro mowers come with raw edge belts. 

I think SHAW351 and Homesteader both offer the correct answers. 

best to have a spare set ready as well....


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