# harbor freight engine swap



## vroom64

Newbi here, 
I bought a harbor fright engine 212cc to replace my Tecumseh engine on a Toro 524 model 38040, after taking the engine off; I realized the rod for the pulley on the new engine is smaller than the Tecumseh engine, and the new engine does not come with a pulley. Any help, advice or suggestions will be greatly appreciate it.
Thank you


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## Colored Eggs

Most likely you will need to have one made. I just did a repower using a toro 3521 and the tecumseh had the same exact shaft size. What is the shaft size on the origional toro you are using. You may be able to find a pulley on ebay from a simular snowblower like a 3521 that has the same shaft as the new predator and same design of the old pulley.


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## sscotsman

My advice is:
return the Harbor Freight engine, and look for a used Tecumseh with the same specs.
(doesnt have to be the *exact* same model or HP, just close enough that things match up..)

And a 20-year old Tecumseh will, in most cases, be twice the quality a new Harbor Freight engine will ever be..even when factoring in the age and usage difference.

Scot


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## woodtick007

Just go and buy a 1" to 3/4" bushing to put it on the rod. The reason you replaced your tecumseh is the reason everyone does. They are total crap. They were crap 30-40 years ago.....and they are still crap today. The American consumer had no other choice and companies like tecumseh took advantage of the consumer selling them a poorly designed substandard product for top dollar pricing. Thank God for people like China and Harbor Freight. It allows Americans to purchase excellent engines like Greyhound and Predator to repair things that would otherwise have to be thrown away due to the high cost of replacing the engines. Good luck with your repower and please post to let everyone know how that Predator runs compared to the tecumseh.


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## woodtick007

sscotsman said:


> My advice is:
> return the Harbor Freight engine, and look for a used Tecumseh with the same specs.
> (doesnt have to be the *exact* same model or HP, just close enough that things match up..)
> 
> And a *20-year old Tecumseh will, in most cases, be twice the quality a new Harbor Freight engine will ever be.*.even when factoring in the age and usage difference.
> 
> Scot


How in good conscience could you make a statement like that? What exactly in your mind makes the Tecumseh a better engine than a Honda clone? Please explain in detail. . . because I would truly like to be enlightened. I can't wait..... this will be great. I am gonna pop some popcorn so I have something to munch while reading.


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## HCBPH

*Welcome to the forum*

First off, welcome to the forum.

On the question of which is better, Tecumseh vs Clone; that's a question that it will take time to answer IMO.
I did buy a clone engine just to learn more on them. I have torn a number of Tecumseh's down so in some aspects I can speak somewhat to the Tecumseh's. Not saying one is better than the other but just things I've noted.
I've refurbished a few 30-40 year old Tecumsehs and I was amazed in some how little cylinder wear there was (admittedly a blower may not have much usage compared to something like a mower). I've torn one down where it looked to still have cross-hatching in the cylinder likely from the original manufacturing. The one thing I've noted, don't know if it's the gas or what, but almost every Tecumseh has alot of carbon buildup on the piston, vales and head. In all fairness, most were manufactured in the days of leaded gas. Most have had gummed up carbs, but that may be a matter of neglect or unleaded gas than anything else.
All the Tecumseh's I've worked on have had cast iron blocks. From what I've read, most if not all clones are using sleeved aluminum blocks. I've lifted a 10 hp clone and a 10 hp Tecumseh, there definitely is a weight difference between them.
Now having said that, I suspect the Clone may have technical advantages over the Tecumseh's design due to the OHV vs valves in the block. This argument can be taken back over 60 years when the OHV car engine came out vs the Ford flathead. Both can propel a vehicle but each has advantages. 

I can't say that one is better nor worse than the other. Reality though is unless you find a NOS Tecumseh, if you want new it will be a clone of some type. Tecumseh's have time on their side, they've been out a long time and are still going strong in many cases.

I wouldn't rule Tecumseh's out, I have 8 or 9 machines in the shed right now with them and they run strong. Will the clones still be running in 30 or 40 years? I don't know but I doubt I'll live long enough to find out. You'll have to make up your own mind on that one.


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## Shryp

You can buy new pulleys here:
Steel V-Belt Pulleys | Lawn Mower Parts | MFG Supply


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## woodtick007

Shryp said:


> You can buy new pulleys here:
> Steel V-Belt Pulleys | Lawn Mower Parts | MFG Supply


Thank You! Excellent sharing that information.


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## sscotsman

Anything is better than a Harbor Freight honda clone..
Harbor freight honda clones are the lowest of the low..
the cheapest junkiest engines made..(not to mention borderline illegal)
Meanwhile, its a confirmed fact that many Tecumseh engines run 40 to 50 years without a hitch..
let me know how the Harbor Freight engine is doing in 40 years! 

Scot


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## td5771

First off I am a die hard old engine guy. soft spot for the old cast iron kohlers and wisconsin. 

However no one can say whether or not the new clones are junk or not. only time will tell. some will blow up right away, some will last forever. just like I am sure not every old tecumseh always started and ran for 50 years when they first came out. I am sure there were some 4 pm on friday before a holiday weekend engines completed that didnt fair well.

When tecumseh first came around I am sure that there were many saying that they are junk and wont last.

Borderline illegal? I assume that you mean they are identical to the hondas. are the hondas all junk? I dont care for them because they arent american made but I admit they are far from junk.

Have you ran any of the new ones hard? I havent yet but intend to. I put one on a bluebird thatcher and come spring we will see how it does. was I happy about it? no but it needed an engine now. not when I could find an oldie that is still working hard to put on it.

I understand your passion for the old stuff but I am a little surprised at your response, your usually a little more level headed.


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## sscotsman

I dont see what "level headed" has to do with it! 
im just stating the facts..
its well established that the harbor freight clones are *not* of the same quality as a real honda, are not of the same quality as a Tecumseh, and are probably illegal..

(most people probably know this, but in case some dont)
A company/factory in China takes apart a real Honda engine..they then *copy* every single part, right down to every last nut and bolt..then they build and sell these engines cheaply..this is the "honda clone" you buy at Harbor Freight...yes, the parts might seem identical, yes, real honda parts might interchange, but..are all the parts *really* of the same quality as real honda parts? of course not...and is the engine itself assembled to the same high standards as a real honda engine? of course not...its a cheap copy, a clone..and, these Chinese companys are flat-out ripping off Honda! every time you buy one of these engines, you are supporting illegal cloning in China, putting employees of legit manufacturers out of work, supporting China and ripping off legit companys who put in the decades of research and research money to build and sell a quality product..
Chinese companys are cloning *entire cars*!!

Chinese Clones - The Story of Soulless and Affordable Cars - autoevolution

They are coming after US car companys too:

Chinese car company designs Ford F-150 clone | Fox News

Why should someone in China buy a real Ford, when they can buy a clone Ford for half the price?
Do they care that the company that made the clone just flat-out ripped off Ford? 
and that Ford workers are losing business, profits and jobs as a result? apparently not.

(Why should someone in America buy a real Honda engine, when they can buy a clone Honda for 1/4 the price?
Do they care that the company that made the clone just flat-out ripped off Honda?
and that Honda workers are losing business, profits and jobs as a result? apparently not.)

These autos cant be sold outside of China yet..but I wouldnt be surprised if the day is coming..$5,000 "ford clone" pickup at Walmart? sure! why not..lets just give *all* our money to China..we are nearly there already..

yes, some people say the clone engines are fine..but those "reviews" come after owning the engine for a week or so..a year at the most. No has done any "long term" reviews..
and the people who praise them on-line probably arent going to come back and admit they were wrong when the engine dies after a year of use!  so yeah, there is a lot of chatter on the internet about how great they are, but almost always you find those people say things like "been using it for a month now..no problems!"..

like I said..get back to me in 40 years!  and we will see how they *really* relate to a real Honda or a real Tecumseh..

Its really not accurate to say these engines are "just as good" as a real Honda, or any other engine..because you can also find lots of people on-line who say they bought one and it failed in a day..I doubt many real honda engines fail in a day.

So..Illegal clones.
lower quality clones.
China ripping off real manufacturers all around the world.
China putting employees of these real manufacturers out of work.
And Americans supporting it all just because "wow! what a cheap engine!"
just a horrible idea all around, on every level..

I refuse to support it, and I don't mind educating people about what they are buying.

Scot


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## woodtick007

sscotsman said:


> Anything is better than a Harbor Freight honda clone..
> Harbor freight honda clones are the lowest of the low..
> the cheapest junkiest engines made..(not to mention borderline illegal)
> Meanwhile, its a confirmed fact that many Tecumseh engines run 40 to 50 years without a hitch..
> let me know how the Harbor Freight engine is doing in 40 years!
> 
> Oh, wow...... I thought you had something. Very sad response....Very sad indeed.


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## GustoGuy

I have 2 Harbor Freight Predator engines and both of them start in 1 to 2 pulls of the recoil everytime. I use Amsoil in all my products and I have a 1996 Polaris XLT touring that broke a main mag bearing when I was out on the trail a few years ago. At the time it had over 7300 miles on it. I was lucky for I was not stranded and I was able to drive it slowly back to my cabin and load it on the trailer. Well I brought it in to a repair shop and he listened to the engine idle while it ran and said it sounds like something is wrong with the bottom end. Two days later I received a call from them and he told me that my may side crank bearing broke but we have some real good news is that the topend of your engine is in great shape and it tested and we tested it with the calipers and it was within specs. So they sent off for a crank rebuild and the cylinders received just a light hone and new piston rings. This saved me over $250 On new pistons and an overbore.He asked me 
Which oil I use and I told him Amsoil for he said he never seen an engine with that many miles in such great shape. So the Tecumseh has had Amsoil in it from day 1 and I bought my snowblower new in fall of 1995 and despite good maintenance the Tecumseh is hard to start and is not very powerful for it bogs when hitting the snowplow pushed up snow at the end of the driveway. I Have always hated this engine since it was the worst running engine I have ever owned. The so-called worst of the worst Predator 212cc is a modern design caste iron lined cylinder OHV engine that is similar in design to the Honda GX 200. This engine is vastly superior to a primitive Tecumseh valve in block engine and only a biased person would argue that it's better than a modern OHV engine. I am really impressed with how well the Predator has worked and it's twice as good as the Tecumseh was even when it was new. I like American job's as much as anyone but who are you kidding when you are trying to convince a person here that an antiquated valve in block flat head Tecumseh is better than a modern OHV Honda clone? I know lots of cart racers who will disagree with your biased assumptions. A well built 212cc predator with billet rod and flywheels have been tested to have over 14 HP and run as high as 8000rpms. There is a whole market filled with hop up part's being made for this fine little engine. I


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## sscotsman

If it makes you feel better, if you need reasons to support a purchase,
then justify all you like...it doesn't change the facts though.

Lots of people love Walmart..they dont think about how Walmart puts people out of jobs..thats fine I guess. if it makes it easier for you, then just ignore all that messy background stuff about China and jobs..just pretend it doesnt exist and enjoy your cheap stuff.. 

Im just spreading the word...None of this is my doing..
dont shot the messenger! 

Scot


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## td5771

You jumped right to ...they are junk.. period. (thats what I meant by not being level headed-- no other possibility other than junk) but you dont know that. I dont know that.

yes time will tell. and that 20 year old tec? what if the guy gets the friday afternoon one? you cant tell me every old tec engine ran long and hard out of the gate and had no issues. there were just too many built. they had issues I am sure.


I like jobs here as well. I also prefer the old iron and pick them up whenever I can. unfortunately our society has gone down the terrible path of buy it , use it, throw it away. gone are the days of I am going to buy this mower, blower, etc once, only once and I will pay but it better last.

Tecumseh has been around, they are great. nothing pulls harder or quite as well as an old cast iron engine, even the old outdated L head design. I have a 400 pound mower that no matter how I dig my feet in you cant stop it. and its only 6 hp.

To me there will never be anything like the old engines, I used real hondas, they are ok but they are not the old iron.

everyone walks on the type of path you are talking about, everyone whether they want to or not. this is just one small aspect. everything we do or buy is similar. unfortunately it is unavoidable, dont care who you are.


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## woodtick007

sscotsman said:


> If it makes you feel better, if you need reasons to support a purchase,
> then justify all you like...it doesn't change the facts though.
> 
> Lots of people love Walmart..they dont think about how Walmart puts people out of jobs..thats fine I guess. if it makes it easier for you, then just ignore all that messy background stuff about China and jobs..just pretend it doesnt exist and enjoy your cheap stuff..
> 
> Im just spreading the word...None of this is my doing..
> dont shot the messenger!
> 
> Scot


Walmart is an American success story...perhaps your should read up on Sam Walton.


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## 69ariens

I have a 44 yr old 5hp tecumseh that came off my 69 and is now on my 72 and it starts on first pull every time. I also own a predator that replaced 8yr honda 5.5 hp on my slice seeder. I have put 4hrs on the predator and it runs well but I don't think it will last . The predator does the job for $100.


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## sscotsman

woodtick007 said:


> Walmart is an American success story...perhaps your should read up on Sam Walton.


yes, it is an American success story, that is true.
but that is only half of the story.
for "the rest of the story", read on:

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&tbo=d&sclient=psy-ab&q=walmart+kills+jobs

Scot


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## woodtick007

69ariens said:


> I have a 44 yr old 5hp tecumseh that came off my 69 and is now on my 72 and it starts on first pull every time. I also own a predator that replaced 8yr honda 5.5 hp on my slice seeder. I have put 4hrs on the predator and it runs well but I don't think it will last . The predator does the job for $100.


You should have never bought that Predator.... You should have bought another Tecumseh and put it right next to your 44 year old one. Why did you not buy a Tecumseh for your slice seeder?


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## GustoGuy

If Tecumseh would have built a better more modern engine they would still be in business. Yes Chinese labor costs are less and its hard to compete against low wages,yet many successful companies are because they build a high quality product. Arctic Cat builds all of it's engines in St Cloud Minnesota and they used to use Suzuki. Engines for years. .I feel Tecumseh had its chance yet it failed because they did not innovate and Japanese Honda came along and outcompeted them with it's modern OHV small engines. All the snowblower manufactures other than a few use Chinese engines now. And why is the Predator which is made by Loncin (same company makes Toro snowblowers engines) automatically the worst of the worst in quality. The engine has a caste iron cylinder liner and ball bearing crank shaft and it runs great. I should know because I own 2 of them. My snowblower tosses the snow 50 feet now and the Predator cuts through the snow like its not even there. The Tecumseh was a poor running engine and I do not miss it at all. I have 2 American made Briggs on my lawnmowers and they run great so I will keep them.


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## Colored Eggs

I'm up in the air on this topic. I like both tecumseh and the new clones. They all have there bad side. Tecumseh are known for blowing rods if your not careful. Clones are known for being cheaply built. If you take a look at the reviews the predators received you will see at the beginning no one liked them but the last year or 2 since the newer updated models have come out a lot of the issues have been resolved. If I'm not mistaken all of the older engines are actually technically illegal as well since they do not comply with the new environmental rules. I would also give everyone this thought. Competition is stiff. If you look at a Robin engine they look very similar to a honda the way they are designed but they have their differences. Copying goes on all the time. It might not be as drastic as copying right down to the bolt like a honda clone but it does happen. Every company has there lemons. We have a jeep that the engine was one of the unlucky ones that had a defect and it blew up before it was its time but not all the engines had the defect and some are still running today. So I'm giving my clone a chance but I'm still not throwing the old tecumseh that was on it away. I'm going to get a carb kit and fix it so that it runs as well and Not just throwing it in the scrap pile.


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## sscotsman

Predators and Greyhounds are not the same thing..
Honda sued the company who made the Greyhounds, so I think those are no longer being made..the newer "Predators" might be more legit, and not absolute honda clones..if so, thats a good thing! (I still wouldnt buy one!  but perhaps its a step-up from the Greyhound..)

Scot


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## sscotsman

For people interested in engine alternatives, I think the exit of Tecumseh back in 2008, and the "rise of the clones" has created a market for people to rebuild and sell refurbished "US made" Briggs and Tecumseh engines..

I have a small OPE dealer near me, he sells snowblowers, lawnmowers, riding mowers etc..just a small local privately owned business...I was in there about a month ago, and he had a shelf of rebuilt Tecumseh and Briggs engines he has refurbished himself!
I asked about them..he said he takes decent engines, takes them apart and gives them a solid rebuilding: cleaning everything, replacing anything that needs replacing, giving them a good tune-up, repaints them, then sells them for about $150 to $250, depending on the engine.
(and he gives them a 2-year warranty! which says, to me, that he has faith in his work)

No, they arent new, but I bet they will outlast a low-end Honda clone! 
(good initial build quality, used, then rebuilt/refurbished, is still better than low build quality when brand new..)
This kind of thing will probably happen more often over time..
Im sure people are now looking for engines like this..a market has been created for this kind of thing..

The 42 year old Tecumseh on my 42 year old Ariens is still running fine, but if it should ever "give up the ghost" I will definately look into an engine like this..

Scot


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## 69ariens

Woodtick , I went with the clone because when my slice seeder honda blew up. I needed a engine asap and no body had an engine of anther brand on a shelf to sell me. So the next morning I was back to work making money.


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## woodtick007

69ariens said:


> Woodtick , I went with the clone because when my slice seeder honda blew up. I needed a engine asap and no body had an engine of anther brand on a shelf to sell me. So the next morning I was back to work making money.


Come on now...... the only place in the whole wide world that had a small engine was Harbor Freight? Seems difficult to believe. Did you try looking in the yellow pages? HF offered a 30 day money back no questions return. why did you not buy a tecumseh and return the evil Predator? The truth is you like it and think its a great engine...but would never come out and say it. Just admit it.... Tecumseh sucks and China is great!


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## sscotsman

Tick,
I *think* you are attempting to be sarcastic,
but it isnt quite coming across that way..
For someone just skimming this thread, reading your last few posts its actually hard to tell if you are for or against Chinese engines, and if you are supporting, or putting down, 69Ariens and his choice of a Harbor Freight engine..it can be read both ways..

how about not playing the sarcasm game at all and just clearly writing what you actually mean? we dont need the games..

thanks,
Scot


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## fdb16

Back to the OP topic. You should be able to find a replacement with correct bore size at one of these sites.

McMaster Carr V Belt Pulleys

Grainger V Belt Pulleys


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## 69ariens

Woodtick, no one had a tecumseh or briggs. I could have over nighted an engine but I would not have been working the very next morning and I was trying to finish my over seeding list before it rained. As I stated it runs well and as long as it runs I will keep it


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## GustoGuy

Wednesday night I was blowing heavy wet snow with my Predator 212cc and it was tossing over my Dwarf lilacs which are 8 feet tall. Here is the Predator 212cc in action back on 12/09/2012 against an 11 inch snowfall. You be the judge. I am really impressed by how well this engine runs.


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## Simplicity Solid 22

I think both engines types of engines have their purpose. 

Chinese engines are ten year throw away engines...let me see how they are in ten years...I am getting the feeling that if they break...will there be parts readily available?? But if you need a quick fix....go Chinese if you want. I want to see how many built in 2012-13 will be around in 2041...exactly not built for the long run like everything these days...everything is throw away and replace with new...shelf life is different and not meant to be repaired it's meant to be replaced... very sad.

I pray the manufacturing costs in China go up more and more...2009 45% cheaper to make wiper motors for example....right now 27% and by 2015..9% so China manufacturing is rising and rising fast....I just hope that briggs and them brings the engine building fully back to US shores sooner than later...but most likely as we have said it will go to another cheap third world country with a beautifully built plant...

As far as tecumseh....yes some throw rods here and there but I bet if Tecumseh did not stop making engines to concentrate on their founding of AC condensers/compressors most of there problems would be minimal today. I bet the later Tecumseh's did not have that issue. Anyone?? I have a 28yr+ old Tecumseh and mine is running great and throws snow great...no not into the neighbors yards...but I do not want to **** off my neighbor either. But it gets the job done and does it well. Hit thirty inch drifts with ease and 4 ft snowbanks and asked for more and not a hitch. Also as I believe someone put it on here tecumseh and briggs did not just supply engines to the snowblower market for 40 yrs for nothing...the number of tecumseh's and briggs far out number the Chinese engines at this point so of course there will be more cases of failure in both engines. I believe tecumseh did supply most of the American snowblower market for a long time...probably more than Briggs until later years. Anyone..sscotsman is that right?? Wait a minute how many old snowblowers can you still find on want ads/classifieds/craigslist with their original engine still running and what brand are they...WHAT???? Tecumseh or Briggs...wait a 1970 something snowblower with an original briggs or Tecumseh??? HMMMMM....???

I love my tecumseh like GustoGuy loves his Predator engine and that is cool for both of us. I think it is cool that he rebuilt his and that he can hurl that snow a country mile...I love seeing his videos and hearing how he did his rebuild.

I also would love to see him fully rebuild his old 5hp Tecumseh to original spec...compression and proper full RPM and see with the impeller kit how it would do. Would be wicked pissa!!!!!!! But I also think it is fine he got an engine that works great for $99. Tough to fight that one.

They both have their purpose! So lets not knock each others and regardless lets help each other just fix whatever we have..no questions or knocking...OH and no I told you so's....hahaha.


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## bwdbrn1

As I understand it, the patent has run out on Honda's GX series of engines which probably accounts for the rise in the supposed "clones" Just how much of a copy these things things might is something I haven't really looked into. Honda does draw the line at out and out copies in the details, which again, probably accounts for the differences in appearance of some of the features.

There is no doubt that all manufacturers either have in the past, or will in the future build good engines. The consumer is the one who will ultimately decide based on experience.


So, now that this thread has gotten so far off of the original question asked by vroom64, *let's go back and see if we can't find the guy a replacement pulley*, and quit yammerin' about which engine is better! Good gosh, they guy hasn't made a second post, and after opening this can of worms, who could blame him.


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## woodtick007

bwdbrn1 said:


> As I understand it, the patent has run out on Honda's GX series of engines which probably accounts for the rise in the supposed "clones" Just how much of a copy these things things might is something I haven't really looked into. Honda does draw the line at out and out copies in the details, which again, probably accounts for the differences in appearance of some of the features.
> 
> There is no doubt that all manufacturers either have in the past, or will in the future build good engines. The consumer is the one who will ultimately decide based on experience.
> 
> 
> So, now that this thread has gotten so far off of the original question asked by vroom64, *let's go back and see if we can't find the guy a replacement pulley*, and quit yammerin' about which engine is better! Good gosh, they guy hasn't made a second post, and after opening this can of worms, who could blame him.


I believe his problem has been resolved thru private messages. He bought an excellent, high quality, trouble free engine. I hope he has the time to post how he really feels about it. Maybe he'll post a video waving the little Chinese flag that comes with every Predator purchase while throwing his snow clearly into his neighbors yard.


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## GustoGuy

Darn it. Both of my Predator 212cc's were missing the peoples republic of China flags. I knew there was something missing. What's even more sad is when your American flag has a little tag on it that says made in China. Or even worse is the made in America sticker has in tiny print "Made in China"


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## bwdbrn1

From the House Rules Do's and Don'ts:


* We all love our equipment, please, no brand bashing.

http://www.snowblowerforum.com/foru...nts/1354-snowblowerforum-com-house-rules.html


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