# 2 bad 3 machines DOA because of cold



## Lottstodo (Feb 16, 2018)

1 older simplicity 1 craftsman and a early model Ariens all 3 threw rods and engines are junk.
Temps here this morning were around -10F and we really didnt get much for snow less than 2".
But the owners of the above machines felt compelled to operate their equipment.
Two common things with all three were: 
1) being stored outside w/o protection, the craftsman owner said he had a garbage bag on his most of summer.
2) Throttled up to full throttle less than a minute after being started
Two of them did not even get to be moved before self destruction occurred. The ariens was moved 35ft.
The craftsman owner said he had sae 30 oil in it as that is what his lawnmower uses....?? and stated it pulled so hard that he plugged in the electric starter that he never ever uses. when I told him he should have had 5W-30 in it he said no his lawn mower engine manual says SAE 30. I explained the need for the SAE 30 because of summer temps and the need for lighter viscosity for winter temps. He said he would have to prove me wrong by getting info from the MFG. I said please do...

I understand that sometimes we have stuff that we just cant get under a roof for protection, but you can at least cover your investment up with a tarp etc. ALL OF THEM told me that tarps are expensive. I showed each one some outdoor grille covers that I purchased again end of season this fall on clearance for less than 10.00 a piece normally $35.00 to $ 40.00 ea. total of 12 from 3 different big box stores and fit over a snowblower just fine. I sell these to people who need a cover for $15.00.
None of them are happy with me as they all wanted me to find them used engines for under $100.00 and would go as high as $200.00 -$225.00 all completed with install including engine. I declined to do any of them.

3 inside of 3.5 hr all the same it was a complete deja-vu .


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## crazzywolfie (Jun 2, 2014)

you can't fix stupid. while yes it is nice if you can cover your machine or protect it from the whether it is really needed. my snowblower sat in the middle of my backyard all summer and it is just fine. already used it a couple times this season. i think the bigger issue is usually maintenance like proper oil and keeping the oil level where needed. you have the chance of moisture causing stuff like sticking throttles or stuff like that whether you keep it covered or not. 

yup smart decision to not to the work for them. i would not touch something for someone who just wants to cheap out or want you to do it as cheap as possible. i would only do something like that for family or good friends but usually i try to give them the advise needed to keep a machine running forever before they have any issues. anyone that wants you to do stuff as cheap as possible is going to be a headache down the road


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

I can see how running straight 30 oil, in -10F, could be a problem. But I'm surprised the other ones blew, if they had proper oil. It's a snowblower, it should be able to survive cold temps, even if it's not given a few minutes to warm up (which *does* seem like a good idea, but not everyone will be patient enough). 

crazzywolfie, I'm speculating that my current machine was stored outdoors, uncovered, for a while. The machine is quite rusty, and a bunch of fasteners twisted off while trying to work on it (including ones threaded into the engine). I sure wish the previous owner had kept it covered! Or least somehow kept it less-rusty. My tractor lives under a tarp year-round, and it's never given me trouble with linkages rusting up or anything. On the contrary, I'd say it's in much better shape than my blower, rust-wise, despite being about 4 years older. And the blower has lived in my garage for the last 6 years, since I bought it. The tractor has been under a tarp since I bought it 9 years ago, though admittedly I think the previous owners had it garaged. 

Not trying to tell anyone what to do, but what I've seen, keeping equipment covered seems like a better approach, to me. It's at least my preference. 

Lottstodo, sorry you had to deal with those, it does seem like declining is probably the safer approach, to avoid dealing with hassles of potentially unhappy customers. Too bad the machines suffered that fate!


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## orangputeh (Nov 24, 2016)

Lottstodo said:


> 1 older simplicity 1 craftsman and a early model Ariens all 3 threw rods and engines are junk.
> Temps here this morning were around -10F and we really didnt get much for snow less than 2".
> But the owners of the above machines felt compelled to operate their equipment.
> Two common things with all three were:
> ...


is that a crack smokin hood?

so what do you suggest if the blower is outside and they use 5w-30? is there anything else an owner can do? should they turn over engine with key off to maybe lube things first ? sometimes it falls below zero and here and my machines are in garage. I don't wanna blow one.

thanks.


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## Lottstodo (Feb 16, 2018)

let them Idle and warm up for awhile so that the oil has a chance to warm.

RedOctobyr:: The other 2 machines I do not know what type or weight or amount of oil was in those blowers, the bad part neither did the owners , they never checked. They could not tell me when the last time oil had been changed or checked. when I asked them if they changed oil last year one said he didnt think so but thought he had 4 yrs. ago . The other asked why nothins been leaking he did not ever remember changing oil on that simplicity, ever!!!


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## cranman (Jan 23, 2016)

Thats why people have to buy new blowers...other wise every one would still have 10000 series Ariens.......


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## GoBlowSnow (Sep 4, 2015)

The new Ariens Deluxe 24's that my church has been getting the past 2 years only have 1 engine speed.. fast.. there is now slow or fast on it


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## classiccat (Mar 1, 2014)

You have to wonder if there was any ice build-up from poor storage... like the governor linkage or recoil assembly. :eeek:


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## WVguy (Nov 24, 2018)

Agreed it was a good decision to not deal with idiot cheapskates. Just today I got the eyeroll from my wife for suggesting maybe keep the two snowblowers in the basement instead of the shed at end of season (note that I drain ALL fuel then) because the basement is much drier and we have plenty of room. And regardless of hours I change the engine oil, and grease and oil those bits that need grease and oil and so on. My lawn mower is 25 years old, runs fine, just follow the maintenance instruction in the manual. I haven't the foggiest idea why that is so hard for so many people.

As cranman noted those people are job security for repair shops and OPE manufacturers.


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## Lottstodo (Feb 16, 2018)

Yeah. Why would or did they do that to the 24. DO NOT LIKE IT !!! I have a couple here close by both of the owners dislike that feature. I have been approached by one owner as to a possible carb swap to something with speed control as soon as his factory warranty is up.


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

Sometimes these discussions can still help others, fortunately. I gave my machine some extra time to warm up tonight, before putting it to work. So thanks for the reminder, at least!


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## crazzywolfie (Jun 2, 2014)

RedOctobyr said:


> crazzywolfie, I'm speculating that my current machine was stored outdoors, uncovered, for a while. The machine is quite rusty, and a bunch of fasteners twisted off while trying to work on it (including ones threaded into the engine). I sure wish the previous owner had kept it covered! Or least somehow kept it less-rusty. My tractor lives under a tarp year-round, and it's never given me trouble with linkages rusting up or anything. On the contrary, I'd say it's in much better shape than my blower, rust-wise, despite being about 4 years older. And the blower has lived in my garage for the last 6 years, since I bought it. The tractor has been under a tarp since I bought it 9 years ago, though admittedly I think the previous owners had it garaged.


but it may also be the location you keep it. a lot of people will toss stuff like snowblowers or lawn mowers under trees or in shaded area's that get very little sun. whether you tarp something or not in a shady area with very little if any sun stuff usually start rusting or falling apart. if you have that tarped machine somewhere sunny where the moisture has the chance to evaporate once in a while it will probably be fine. if you leave it out in the sun the paint/plastic usually fades or discolors. storage locating is a a big determining factor bad something may rust.


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

That's an interesting point, and a good thing to keep in mind, thanks. The tractor is under the deck, but it gets sun on the tarp. Maybe that's helped, I hope so.


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## GoBlowSnow (Sep 4, 2015)

oh for crying out loud. I've stored power equipment outside allbeit under a tarp for years and no issues. Stop with this storing your stuff in the basement crap. the garage or outside is fine.


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## SnowH8ter (Oct 8, 2018)

The old Mastercraft (MTD) spent most of its life outside, under a snow blower cover. I can't say that it was, over time, any worse for wear for being left outside. Over the yrs, there have been a number of occasion where it was necessary to venture out and wake the beast when the mercury was close to or at -30C. Never relished those occasions, especially without hand warmers, but there were some details I always attended to when it was that cold. The beast always had synthetic 5W-30 in its belly. Even so, slowly pulling the crank over by hand at those temperatures made one cringe at the thought of the beast firing up in that state. For moi, the solution was rather simple. By plugging the beast in and running the e-starter through one or two five second cycles (ignition off), the engine loosened up quite measurably. Thereafter a quick tug of the recoil would most always get things fired up. Correction: The old girl did in fact have a pretty effective hand warmer - just not the kind that kept the pinkies warm when you're hanging on. Only downside to that style hand warmer was getting the smell of the exhaust gases off yer hands. :biggrin:


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## classiccat (Mar 1, 2014)

Lottstodo said:


> 1) being stored outside *w/o protection*, the craftsman owner said he had a garbage bag on his most of summer.





GoBlowSnow said:


> oh for crying out loud. I've stored power equipment outside allbeit *under a tarp* for years and no issues. Stop with this storing your stuff in the basement crap. the garage or outside is fine.


"w/o protection" is the operative statement in the OP's post.

I visualize something like this C/L ad.


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## guzzijohn (Mar 31, 2014)

I like to run any engine at minimum rpm to get job done.


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## Cutter (Mar 29, 2017)

WVguy said:


> Agreed it was a good decision to not deal with idiot cheapskates. Just today I got the eyeroll from my wife for suggesting maybe keep the two snowblowers in the basement instead of the shed at end of season (note that I drain ALL fuel then) because the basement is much drier and we have plenty of room. And regardless of hours I change the engine oil, and grease and oil those bits that need grease and oil and so on. My lawn mower is 25 years old, runs fine, just follow the maintenance instruction in the manual. I haven't the foggiest idea why that is so hard for so many people.
> 
> As cranman noted those people are job security for repair shops and OPE manufacturers.



Well, I thought I was the pinnacle of yard care equipment.....But you have me beat. Never thought of storing these beasts in a basement before. I got laughed at by my work colleagues when I told them that using car wax on lawnmowers and snowblowers was part of my maintenance routine. Why not? Who says that any power equipment has to look like S%$T? I believe in taking care and my stuff looks like new. Qudo's to you , my friend.:wink2:


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## UNDERTAKER (Dec 30, 2013)

* If you leave anything lying around outside here in my HOOD. The local RIFF-RAFF will jack it in a NEW YORK MINUTE. mg::emoticon-south-park*


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## sscotsman (Dec 8, 2010)

guzzijohn said:


> I like to run any engine at minimum rpm to get job done.


Thats a very bad idea, especially with summer equipment.
Small gas engines are air-cooled. it seems counter-intuitive, but they are designed to run *cooler* the faster they run. they are designed to run at full RPM, for the best cooling, because the fan forces more air across the cooling fins the faster it runs.

Running them at low RPM's for extended time can result in dangerous overheating. Probably not a major issue with a snowblower, but it definitely would be for summer mowers or garden tractors.

They should only be "throttled down" when starting, and for a minute or less when being stopped. For normal use while mowing or blowing snow, it should be full RPM all the time.


Scot


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## Lottstodo (Feb 16, 2018)

The biggest point I would like to make is that No element protection, No maintenance, and what I would call "out of season-out of mind" care for your equipment is :
1) Always evident to anyone who is doing repair on these units. When I see UV sun bleached decals, and plastic bleached and cracked, tires cracked, rusted controls, linkages,etc. Tells me that there was not much or any form of protection. As opposed to the ones that come in that do not look showroom condition , but you can tell that it was protected, may it be that it was under a tarp, in a shed or garage, even lean to's you can definitely see the the difference between the 2 forms of storage(protected-not protected).

2) Can determine whether your investment will be worth anything a few years down the road.

Then there are those that have equipment 10 yrs old and older that looks and runs like it was built yesterday and you can hardly tell it has been used, this I credit to very good protection, very good maintenance and very good exterior clean up and storage, these are the guys that can tell you every repair, part, procedure, that has been performed. (these are the machines I like to buy).

I personally work hard for the money that I use to purchase tools and equipment. I would not leave chainsaws, sockets and wrenches, lawn mowers,snowmobiles, snow blower's etc. laying outside unprotected and expect them to work like they are supposed to. 
So yea I try to protect my stuff, and if I fail at that then its MY FAULT and if it becomes junk STILL MY FAULT not the MFG. or the guy who it gets taken to for repairs.

In most cases I will take the money from the guy who neglected his equipment. and will charge full price (especially if I have explained this to them before) and as well add extra time to the labor that the time guide states to cover for rusted / seized encrusted parts encountered. 
But I will not do a repair to save you money, at my expense and at a cost of what you only want to spend .

Rant OVER


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## SimplicitySolid22 (Nov 18, 2018)

Yeah leave it outside uncovered....That is asking for trouble.

As I have mentioned when I got my Simplicity 870 it had been left outside and NOT MAINTAINED so it was a brutal fix......Mouse hotel......Frozen cylinder and auger rakes. Was starting to rust all over engine housing(all metal White Tec. HM80) and blower body.... AT least buy a cover like Lottstodo said.

Put it up on blocks as well to to get it off ground so Scraper and skids do not rust/rot.


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

sscotsman said:


> Thats a very bad idea, especially with summer equipment.
> Small gas engines are air-cooled. it seems counter-intuitive, but they are designed to run *cooler* the faster they run. they are designed to run at full RPM, for the best cooling, because the fan forces more air across the cooling fins the faster it runs.
> 
> Running them at low RPM's for extended time can result in dangerous overheating. Probably not a major issue with a snowblower, but it definitely would be for summer mowers or garden tractors.
> ...



I keep hearing this argument, and it never fails to set off my BS-O-Meter . . . 



Sure, the fan moves less air at lower speed. But then engine is producing less power, thus needing less air . . . Thus, pretty much a non-issue. 



The engine produces less splash at lower speed. But the amount of friction and movement of parts against parts is also lower. Also seems like a non-issue. 



I have never *NOT* run equipment at part throttle at times, and guess what? Never had an engine fail or overheat . . .


Aircraft engines are air cooled. And guess what? Optimal speed is *NOT* anywhere near maximum. Speed is reduced for efficiency and power delivered is determined by propeller pitch. Not an issue. 



Air cooled auto engines, same thing . . . VW Beetle or the infamous Corvair. Both fan cooled, much the same way as a power equipment engine. Not a factor. 



I think that the idea that making less power using far less fuel at lower throttle can produce more heat is misguided at best . . . The physics just don't seem to add up for me . . . 



Sorry . . .


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## vinnycom (Nov 6, 2017)

i leave mine outside but i check oil b4 i start, pull rope a few times b4 starting it up, if that feels good i start it up, get it warmed up at 1/2 throttle 1/2 choke for a couple of minutes then full beans when doing blowing snow. fyi i use 5w30syn on my 80's 10hp motor.

who would start their car in frigid temps then rev it to 3600rpms within seconds of starting it? u would be just asking for damage


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## sscotsman (Dec 8, 2010)

tadawson said:


> I keep hearing this argument, and it never fails to set off my BS-O-Meter . . .
> 
> Sure, the fan moves less air at lower speed. But then engine is producing less power, thus needing less air . . . Thus, pretty much a non-issue.



Nope..not how it works.
its still generating plenty of heat at low RPM's..but the "less heat" isnt necessarily equal to the "less cooling"..
its not a 1-to-1 ratio. it can generate more heat than the lower RPM fan can dissipate properly.



I'll look for some manuals..
but here is another thread where people go into this question in detail..
there are also some "deniers" there,  but plenty of good reasons why full RPM is better..


https://www.houzz.com/discussions/1627539/tractor-rpm



Scot


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

But yet Ariens has a range that they recommend to run in on the new EFI machines, and it isn't full speed all the time . . . Kinda blows that theory . . . apparently neither they or LCT consider it a problem on that engine . . . 



I still think that a lot of the full throttle nonsense comes from the EPA, since it's harder to get the engines compliant at part throttle on such simple carbs. It certainly wasn't an issue back in the 70's and 80's where you couldn't find a blower without a full range throttle . . .


Oh, and I've read some of those "Jughead and Clem" type of articles. They include absolutely everything but hard science, physics, and fact . . .


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## tdipaul (Jul 11, 2015)

GoBlowSnow said:


> oh for crying out loud. I've stored power equipment outside allbeit under a tarp for years and no issues. Stop with this storing your stuff in the basement crap. the garage or outside is fine.


In the basement is a little extreme 

Please post some GOOD pics of your machines that live under the tarps outside.

Or any other Tarp People out there 

Lets see 'em


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## tdipaul (Jul 11, 2015)

sscotsman said:


> Thats a very bad idea, especially with summer equipment.
> Small gas engines are air-cooled. it seems counter-intuitive, but they are designed to run *cooler* the faster they run. they are designed to run at full RPM, for the best cooling, because the fan forces more air across the cooling fins the faster it runs.
> 
> Running them at low RPM's for extended time can result in dangerous overheating. Probably not a major issue with a snowblower, but it definitely would be for summer mowers or garden tractors.
> ...


.
has anyone ever proved this out via actual testing of the cyl head/exhaust temps or is it just a theory created by an Engineer in 1956? 

If there is a Youtube video of recent testing please post the link


not trying to be a b*** buster, just in search of the truth.



.


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## DriverRider (Nov 20, 2016)

sscotsman said:


> Nope..not how it works.
> its still generating plenty of heat at low RPM's..but the "less heat" isnt necessarily equal to the "less cooling"..
> its not a 1-to-1 ratio. it can generate more heat than the lower RPM fan can dissipate properly.
> I'll look for some manuals..
> ...



Houzz.com? Prolly two insurance salesman/office types, don't mean nothing. 
Back up your opinion here with reliable Trade related technical links/papers that running an engine less than 3600 or 3450?RPM is detrimental to its' longevity.:smile2:


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## sscotsman (Dec 8, 2010)

DriverRider said:


> Houzz.com? Prolly two insurance salesman/office types, don't mean nothing.
> Back up your opinion here with reliable Trade related technical links/papers that running an engine less than 3600 or 3450?RPM is detrimental to its' longevity.:smile2:


Its not an opinion, its a known fact.
and sure, no problem:


*Direct from Toro*:


> Why don't I have a throttle control on my mower?
> 
> Most Walk Power Mowers we offer *do not have a throttle control.* A throttle control would allow you to vary the engine speed from idle all the way up to full speed. We have found, *not having it actually increases engine life and product performance. *
> 
> ...


Source:
https://www.toro.com/en/customer-support/faqs/residential-faqs



*Also direct from Toro:*


> What are the benefits of running your riding mower on full throttle?
> 
> *Cleaner cut* on the grass
> *More power*, less likely to bog down
> ...


Source:
https://www.toro.com/en/customer-support/faqs/residential-faqs


*From Ferris:*


> “ALWAYS operate at full throttle when mowing”


source:
http://www.specsserver.com/CACHE/frdaneyeuxwx.pdf



*From Simplicity:*


> Throttle Control
> This controls the engine speed.
> Move the throttle control to the FAST position to increase engine
> speed and SLOW position to decrease engine
> speed. Always operate at full throttle.


source:
https://www.simplicitymfg.com/na/en...llisting.downloadmanual.1757858_B_LO.pdf.html



*From Ariens* 
Ten Ariens Manuals, snowblowers and mowers, variations on "run at full throttle"
https://tinyurl.com/yd5rrg36


Scot


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

Well, other than the Ariens EFI, that has "efficiency" and "power" settings, with efficiency being at lower numbers. 



Still proves very little without the engineering analysis . . .considering that it is *IMPOSSIBLE* to produce the same amount of heat (BTU) at a lower speed than full:


The cylinder is fixed displacement. 

There are no intake devices like turbochargers etc. on these engines. 

Thus, the *most* that can be drawn in is the cylinder volume, per rotation - let's say 200cc for example. 

If the throttle is not wide open, this is reduced, since the intake is at lower pressure, thus overall lower volume. The above is a *max*. 

Gasoline burns in a fairly narrow range of mixtures, centered at 14.7:1. So, let's assume that fuel to air mix is fixed for this example. 

So, and engine turning at 3600 RPM will have 1800 intake strokes per minute. Assuming wide open, that's 360,000 cc of mixture per minute. If at 1800 RPM, that's 900 intake strokes per minute, or 180,000 cc of mixture. 

Considering the constant air fuel ratio, that mandates that the 3600 RPM engine is burning twice the amount of fuel in the same unit time. The fuel has a fixed BTU content per unit volume. Thus, the engine running 1800 is producing *HALF* the thermal output of the one at 3600. Physics! This *CANNOT* be different!
Heat due to friction is likely higher on the higher speed engine due to faster movement between the parts, and potentially thinner lubricant films. 





On the cooling fan, I don't find any quick references as to airflow vs. rotational speed, but all other things being equal, airflow will be more restricted by the shroud at higher flows, so if anything cooling airflow will fall off as speed increases, not increase. In any case, the ratio should be about the same. 



Same with lube. Half the speed means half the friction needing less lubrication. As long as the bottom end stays wet, any more is useless . . . 





But to my thoughts on emissions: Small engine carbs are really crude devices in the big picture. Mixtures for EPA tests I am certain are measured at full speed. Likely they go rich at part throttle, simply because an orifice becomes less restrictive at lower flows, so I would expect a slight enrichment at lower settings, likely getting the EPA's panties in a wad. (Not to mention no compensation for temp or barometric pressure, which determine O2 content going in). These issues are covered in the EFI engine - known intake volume of air at measured temp and pressure, and appropriate fuel injected for that O2 quantity, so should be correct mix at any power output/throttle setting . . . 



And we wonder why, magically, the manuals for the EFI engines suggest a range of operating speeds, and for carbed engines they don't. 



*THIS* is the kind of analysis I want to prove something . . . Manuals which may well have been written by marketing to try to get folks to blow stuff up to get more sales I do not regard as much more than background noise. This can only be proven by hard engineering test data . . . 



(But yeah, *rotory* lawnmowers do cut better at higher speeds, but that has nothing to do with engine longevity . . . but reel mowers don't . . . .) 


Oh, and here is the Ariens EFI manual, which clearly states that pretty much any speed is OK to use . . . http://apache.ariens.com/manuals/05136000C_ENG.pdf


The only possible difference between that engine and the non-EFI with the carb is emissions . . . . why the difference if part throttle is so evil? Hmmmm . . . .


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## DriverRider (Nov 20, 2016)

sscotsman said:


> Its not an opinion, its a known fact.
> and sure, no problem:Source:
> https://www.toro.com/en/customer-support/faqs/residential-faqs
> Source:
> ...


 Sorry but silly operator manuals written so the American housewife can understand is not technical enough for me.

Fact: 

Most on the forum with no dog in the race who buy a tach for their blower more often than not report the engine RPM when new around 3450RPM.

 Fact:

Engines that turn slower last longer
The generator industry is one that I am familiar with has lots of info regarding prime movers and I will often refer to them due to lack of reliable info on your typical small engine. 

How to choose a generator - Bowers Power
https://thepowersite.co.uk/blog/diesel-generators-faq-frequently-asked-questions-1500rpm-3000rpm/
https://www.quora.com/In-generators-how-is-the-engine-RPM-related-to-the-frequency-of-AC-output
https://www.generatorjoe.net/html/stepxstepgenerator.html

Fact

From the Honda service manual regarding operating speed range: is suitable for use between 2000-3600RPM.

Fact:

From B&S service manual circa 1963 at running governed speeds of less than 3100. To this day all small engines have these governor arm holes for various governed RPM limits.

Only North America uses 3600RPM 60hz generators for stand by power, rest of the world is 50hz 3000RPM machines.

Honda, B&S, Tecumseh and every other engine manufacturer makes these small air cooled engines with governor arm holes for various RPM speed ranges to be used on products all over the world.
Last I heard Europe was not crying foul because their small engines were self destructing running at 3000RPM.
I would take a 3000RPM generator any day of the week over the 3600RPM North America "screamer" for longevity.
In summation this is the real world enviroment of how these engines are utilized and the one factor that is generally agreed upon is the faster an engine turns the shorter its' lifespan.


UK website selling 3000RPM Honda generators.
https://www.honda.co.uk/industrial/products/generators/specialist-open-frame/specifications.html#


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## skutflut (Oct 16, 2015)

Cutter said:


> Well, I thought I was the pinnacle of yard care equipment.....But you have me beat. Never thought of storing these beasts in a basement before. I got laughed at by my work colleagues when I told them that using car wax on lawnmowers and snowblowers was part of my maintenance routine. Why not? Who says that any power equipment has to look like S%$T? I believe in taking care and my stuff looks like new. Qudo's to you , my friend.:wink2:


Everybody knows that a coat of wax on the blower and lawn mower keeps snow /ice or grass clippings from sticking to them.:wink2:


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## tabora (Mar 1, 2017)

DriverRider said:


> Only North America uses 3600RPM 60hz generators for stand by power, rest of the world is 50hz 3000RPM machines.


That's just due to the math of making a particular frequency with a certain number of poles:

Non-inverter 2-pole generators usually must run at 3600 RPM at all times to maintain voltage and 60Hz frequency.

Generator Frequency (f) = Number of revolutions per minute of the engine (N) * Number of magnetic poles (P) / 120 

Conversely, P = 120*f/N 

Therefore, a 2-pole generator producing an output frequency of 60 Hz has an engine speed of 3,600 rpm. 

Some generators have 4 poles and run at 1800 RPM to generate 60Hz. They are known for their longer lifespan, too. Not to mention QUIET!


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## sscotsman (Dec 8, 2010)

DriverRider said:


> Sorry but silly operator manuals written so the American housewife can understand is not technical enough for me.


Driver, we are done with this. its just a waste of time now.

Scot


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## sscotsman (Dec 8, 2010)

"Lotstodo",
I apologize for contributing to your thread drifting so off-topic..
The topic of "full throttle" is now concluded, for this thread. 
Thanks,
Scot


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

sscotsman said:


> Wow, so Toro, Ferris, Simplicity and Ariens are all _wrong_..and you are right.
> You know better than Toro, Ferris, Simplicity and Ariens, you are smarter than all of them..
> so..just to be clear..they have no idea what they are talking about, they have been wrong for 60 years, what they said in all those official manufacturer manuals is _wrong_.. but you are correct.
> ok then..good to know.
> ...



No, it's the physics and engineering that call BS on the argument. They have provided *NOTHING* to back their claims, and may well be trying to get folks to wear things out for marketing reasons. Or, it may well be to avoid the idiot calls of "my blower isn't performing" . . . that are all too common. 



Note also that Ariens, Toro, Simplicity, and Ferris are *NOT* engine manufacturers, so I do not necessarily expect them to be authoritative on engines . . . I would expect Briggs, LCT, Loncin, ChinFatCo, Techumseh, etc. to be making those statements, and would regard them as far, far, more credible . . . 



And I have yet to hear a peep from you about why Ariens states the exact opposite for EFI engines . . .


Moving to the other thread . . .


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## Lottstodo (Feb 16, 2018)

IMO I think that everyone has a piece of the puzzle here. However I also think that as the small engine engineering progressed to overhead valve and then epa carbs, then too EFI, Not to mention different fuel starting back in the 80's I think that everyone was scrambling to keep up with changing times including Laws, State to State EPA ( Ca.) regs plus federal regs and a lot of these MFG had a world sales base not just a USA.
Summer equipment requires a higher viscosity oil than winter equipment and oil is part of the cooling aside from lube as it will help maintain bearing temps in a tolerable range. Many engines that are designed are designed for specific seasons ( snow series, lawn equip, and generators etc.) some have different heat retaining shields while others have no shields for rapid air release. But I believe that if an engine is worked under a load at a lower than peak hp throttle you can build more heat faster but I think that all of the engines parameters where hp is best is absent and contribute to the increased heat build. Again I say under a working stress Load.

The biggest part of the throttle position controversy I think lies with the MFG testing/dyno and where the sustained Hp band was best for the engine and still qualified or met EPA regulation. Lets say at a lower engine speed you engage the auger drive and engage heavy snow at the same time if the cam and timing and carb have been designed to develop peak hp at lets say [email protected] any speed below that threshold is not giving you 8 hp and a lot less performance . As well a new efi machine can and does have the ability to produce better lower speed HP just because of all the parameters being monitored and adjusted on the fly throughout the throttle range, older primitive carb engines just can not do that because it can not change its predetermined non adjustable parameters on its own. 

So for me I try to pay attention to the Hp @ ???? rpm and if thats the best hp to be produced then this is where I try to run the machine while loading or working the equipment. I am talking non modded engines. As well I idle the machine or lower the speed when not loading. 

AGAIN this is my opinion, NO printed facts, no data sheets, not even a good ole dyno test printout ----just a self taught educated theory. 

But it has been good to read different opinions , theory's , even some of the engine data that was supplied so thank you and I hope that everyone on SBF, that has differing opinions or sediment can agree to disagree and continue to provide Great expertise to those that need it as even seen here in this post as I stated I believe everyone has a piece of this puzzle.


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