# Toro 821 worth the extra $ over the 721?



## fjb730 (Feb 20, 2021)

I had a Toro 721 for a year but returned it due to the exhaust melting the casing on the control cable. I asked Toro if they were planning to redesign this however, no reply. Regardless, the 721 did a great job on my driveway but I thought of getting the 821 for the extra power. I live in PA so our winters aren't as bad as my years in New England but the pile-up from plows and a bit more "umph" to throw snow would be bad (~ $100 more). I am looking at the manual start vs. electric as I never seemed to need/used the electric.

Any recommendations in one over the other? (Electric start vs. Manual; QZE vs. manual chute) Appreciate all input!


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## ktl5005 (Oct 19, 2020)

I have an Ariens, but I am a firm believer of the more power the better. I went with a 24" model over a 28" model b/c the 24" model had the higher cc engine and more tons/hour throwing displacement. No replacement for displacement so if its only $100 it is a no brainer.


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## fjb730 (Feb 20, 2021)

ktl5005 said:


> I have an Ariens, but I am a firm believer of the more power the better. I went with a 24" model over a 28" model b/c the 24" model had the higher cc engine and more tons/hour throwing displacement. No replacement for displacement so if its only $100 it is a no brainer.


Yes, it would seem to make sense. 212cc (721) vs. 252cc (821) is the power difference. I think the paddles may also be a bit more reinforced as a "commercial" model. Thanks for the reply!


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## ktl5005 (Oct 19, 2020)

Welcome. If it’s only $100 difference I don’t think your going to miss the $100 of the ease and comfort of blowing snow is better


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## aa335 (Jan 21, 2020)

ktl5005 said:


> I have an Ariens, but I am a firm believer of the more power the better. I went with a 24" model over a 28" model b/c the 24" model had the higher cc engine and more tons/hour throwing displacement. No replacement for displacement so if its only $100 it is a no brainer.


Normally, I would agree with this logic for a 2 stage snowblower. A big engine with a big blower section and fairly narrow cutting width means it will be an awesome machine for end of drive pile. If this is the kind of condition that happens a lot and you love digging out neighbor's EOD pile for fun, then more power is better. I'm never in a hurry to dig out EOD. Don't know what's buried in there that could mess up a high powered aggressive snowblower. If you ever have to change a shear pin while the bucket is packed with snow, salt, and grit due to overenthusiastic charge, it's no fun to go fast just to stop and fix.

However, the same cannot be said for single stage. Bigger engines on a single stage snowblower makes more noise and vibration. It also makes it less maneuverable. The extra weight makes it more trouble to lift it up down vehicles for transport. More power with the same rubber paddles means you will be stressing out belts, bearings, and rubber augers. Even the smallest engine on that Toro 21 isn't undersized or wimpy.

To @fjb730, if you found that your 721 does not lack power and has met your expectation, there is no reasonable need to go with a bigger engine. A lot of this people on this continent buy from emotional needs and overbuy for the worse condition. As far as options, I say the quick shoot QZ is definitely nice to have. I just wished Toro has the remote deflector as well, like on the Honda HS720.


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## carguy20 (Feb 8, 2021)

I would go for the bigger engine, especially if you plan on keeping it for many years. There is nothing worse than kicking yourself for not buying what you know you should have.

I would also consider the electric start. You may not need it now, but in a few years, it might be more appealing to push a button than pull a cord. I know my dad appreciates having it (as do I).


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## GOLDWOOD (Apr 22, 2013)

carguy20 said:


> I would go for the bigger engine, especially if you plan on keeping it for many years. There is nothing worse than kicking yourself for not buying what you know you should have.
> 
> I would also consider the electric start. You may not need it now, but in a few years, it might be more appealing to push a button than pull a cord. I know my dad appreciates having it (as do I).


My neighbor said to me, Why would I want electric start when my Toro CCR 2450 starts with one pull! Four years ago the cord broke on his recoil when he was getting ready to blow snow. Now if he only had a push button also.


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## carguy20 (Feb 8, 2021)

GOLDWOOD said:


> My neighbor said to me, Why would I want electric start when my Toro CCR 2450 starts with one pull! Four years ago the cord broke on his recoil when he was getting ready to blow snow. Now if he only had a push button also.


This is another thing to consider as well. I usually try to keep an eye on if my pull cord is fraying, but it can break at the pulley end that you can't see. Also, if you are having problems starting it, it helps not having to pull 10 times or more in a short span of time. 

Don't get me wrong, my CCR3650 has no electric start, but it was free, and I hope to add it some day. If the blower was free or real cheap, I would not worry. If you are buying new, that is a different story.


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## fjb730 (Feb 20, 2021)

aa335 said:


> Normally, I would agree with this logic for a 2 stage snowblower. A big engine with a big blower section and fairly narrow cutting width means it will be an awesome machine for end of drive pile. If this is the kind of condition that happens a lot and you love digging out neighbor's EOD pile for fun, then more power is better. I'm never in a hurry to dig out EOD. Don't know what's buried in there that could mess up a high powered aggressive snowblower. If you ever have to change a shear pin while the bucket is packed with snow, salt, and grit due to overenthusiastic charge, it's no fun to go fast just to stop and fix.
> 
> However, the same cannot be said for single stage. Bigger engines on a single stage snowblower makes more noise and vibration. It also makes it less maneuverable. The extra weight makes it more trouble to lift it up down vehicles for transport. More power with the same rubber paddles means you will be stressing out belts, bearings, and rubber augers. Even the smallest engine on that Toro 21 isn't undersized or wimpy.
> 
> To @fjb730, if you found that your 721 does not lack power and has met your expectation, there is no reasonable need to go with a bigger engine. A lot of this people on this continent buy from emotional needs and overbuy for the worse condition. As far as options, I say the quick shoot QZ is definitely nice to have. I just wished Toro has the remote deflector as well, like on the Honda HS720.


Appreciate your perspective here. I too was wondering if "more power" meant "better". To your point, would it pull the machine and handle differently and be louder, etc? This is where feedback from some existing owners would help. I do know that the paddles are heavier/thicker so they can stand up to the extra work. All good points to consider though. Thanks!


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## fjb730 (Feb 20, 2021)

carguy20 said:


> This is another thing to consider as well. I usually try to keep an eye on if my pull cord is fraying, but it can break at the pulley end that you can't see. Also, if you are having problems starting it, it helps not having to pull 10 times or more in a short span of time.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, my CCR3650 has no electric start, but it was free, and I hope to add it some day. If the blower was free or real cheap, I would not worry. If you are buying new, that is a different story.


I like the thought on the electric start as a "back up" option. I never considered that I wouldn't be able to pull it! Appreciate you taking the time to reply - thanks!


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## fjb730 (Feb 20, 2021)

carguy20 said:


> This is another thing to consider as well. I usually try to keep an eye on if my pull cord is fraying, but it can break at the pulley end that you can't see. Also, if you are having problems starting it, it helps not having to pull 10 times or more in a short span of time.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, my CCR3650 has no electric start, but it was free, and I hope to add it some day. If the blower was free or real cheap, I would not worry. If you are buying new, that is a different story.


I like the thought on the electric start as a "back up" option. I never considered that I wouldn't be able to pull it (frayed cord or otherwise)! A few things to consider here. Appreciate you taking the time to reply - thanks!


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## aa335 (Jan 21, 2020)

fjb730 said:


> Appreciate your perspective here. I too was wondering if "more power" meant "better". To your point, would it pull the machine and handle differently and be louder, etc? This is where feedback from some existing owners would help. I do know that the paddles are heavier/thicker so they can stand up to the extra work. All good points to consider though. Thanks!


I never found my Toro 6hp 21" single stage snowblower to be lacking in power. If the snow seems to overwhelm the 621, out comes the big dog Honda 1132. No fooling around with bringing a feisty chihuahua to fight a pit bull.

Horses for courses.


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## Slinger (Oct 9, 2014)

Only 9 lbs difference between the 821QZE and 721QZE. I have that 252cc engine on my Snowmaster and it's loud. I assume they use the same setup on the 821. I like having electric start as well, even if I hardly ever use it. I've also been waiting for Toro to come up with a remote deflector for this machine, but I don't think we'll ever see it because then the machine would be infringing on the Snowmaster's territory. I've got one but I prefer the way a traditional SS machine's paddles contact the pavement for better clearing.


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## fjb730 (Feb 20, 2021)

Slinger said:


> Only 9 lbs difference between the 821QZE and 721QZE. I have that 252cc engine on my Snowmaster and it's loud. I assume they use the same setup on the 821. I like having electric start as well, even if I hardly ever use it. I've also been waiting for Toro to come up with a remote deflector for this machine, but I don't think we'll ever see it because then the machine would be infringing on the Snowmaster's territory. I've got one but I prefer the way a traditional SS machine's paddles contact the pavement for better clearing.


I wasn't thinking of the noise difference...hmmm. I also saw someone comment that the extra power should have come with a larger/more substantial tire. I guess this may be due to the way it pulls? I did notice at times the 721 sort of pulled a bit too the side. This may have been a function of the snow, not sure. But a larger engine size may only increase that pull. Now I'm rethinking the larger engine...


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## aa335 (Jan 21, 2020)

9 pounds is a huge difference for a single stage machine. That's like moving around a gallon of milk. I tried the 721 with the new chassis. It is definitely much more front heavy, not in a good way. The previous design of the Toro 621 had a better distribution of the weight of the engine over the axle. Also, the previous design use engine similar to a Honda GX160. The new design has a different air box and exhaust setup which require different design that feels a lot heavier and harder to steer.

With that said, the bigger and heavier model maybe more suitable for the end of drive piles. That would be the only advantage I see. Otherwise, heavier and more front heavy is a negative in my opinion. Snowblowing the driveway and walkways, I prefer a more nimble lighter snowblower. Also, I do not want any more noise or vibration from a snowblower.


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## fjb730 (Feb 20, 2021)

aa335 said:


> 9 pounds is a huge difference for a single stage machine. That's like moving around a gallon of milk. I tried the 721 with the new chassis. It is definitely much more front heavy, not in a good way. The previous design of the Toro 621 had a better distribution of the weight of the engine over the axle. Also, the previous design use engine similar to a Honda GX160. The new design has a different air box and exhaust setup which require different design that feels a lot heavier and harder to steer.
> 
> With that said, the bigger and heavier model maybe more suitable for the end of drive piles. That would be the only advantage I see. Otherwise, heavier and more front heavy is a negative in my opinion. Snowblowing the driveway and walkways, I prefer a more nimble lighter snowblower. Also, I do not want any more noise or vibration from a snowblower.


The REAL design flaw with this model is the exhaust. It blows right over the cable and as a result melts the casing. I asked Toro about it and they said there was nothing they could add to it to address it but would take the feedback to "engineering". I sent the machine back at the end of the season and then thought of getting the 821 as I did a bit more research. I actually really liked it other than that problem. I may just stick with the 721 given the new input here...and rig up a way to pipe the exhaust away from the cable. The only other option would be to go with the QZE vs. the manual chute...again, not a deal breaker either way. Thanks!


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## aa335 (Jan 21, 2020)

Have you considered the Honda HS720? Certain models have the remote chute rotation and deflector control, and also electric start. All the features you want.

If the current 721 that you have works fine with the exception of the melting casing, I would stick with it until Toro fixed the problem. I'm surprised that they let this out the door.


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## aa335 (Jan 21, 2020)

fjb730 said:


> I like the thought on the electric start as a "back up" option. I never considered that I wouldn't be able to pull it (frayed cord or otherwise)! A few things to consider here. Appreciate you taking the time to reply - thanks!


Electric start can be helpful until it's warm enough for you to fix the real problem, replacing the broken part. I've only used it once when the engine was being really stubborn getting started and I was in rush and didn't feel like pulling the carburetor to clean it out. Ran the electric starter for about 60 seconds and the engine came to life, reluctantly at first. Afterwards, it ran perfectly. However, one must be careful not to hydrolock or flood the engine.

The real purpose for electric start is for people who do not have the physical strength or the capability to pull start.


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## fjb730 (Feb 20, 2021)

aa335 said:


> Have you considered the Honda HS720? Certain models have the remote chute rotation and deflector control, and also electric start. All the features you want.
> 
> If the current 721 that you have works fine with the exception of the melting casing, I would stick with it until Toro fixed the problem. I'm surprised that they let this out the door.


No I haven't looked into that model. To your point, the Toro 721 did work well and it's a pretty well supported product. With the exception of the exhaust issue (attached pic), it's a good homeowner single-stage model and seems to be reasonably priced (~$650). I'll check out the Honda and get reviews too. Thanks!


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## sledman8002002 (Jan 20, 2021)

fjb730 said:


> With the exception of the exhaust issue (attached pic)


I see and understand your issue fjb. A sure cure for that is a bit of tin tape wrapped around a portion of the cable (or the entire cable and bar) will prevent it from melting or hurting it any longer.
Easy peasy to do, peel and stick, take you 5 min.


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## fjb730 (Feb 20, 2021)

sledman8002002 said:


> I see and understand your issue fjb. A sure cure for that is a bit of tin tape wrapped around a portion of the cable (or the entire cable and bar) will prevent it from melting or hurting it any longer.
> Easy peasy to do, peel and stick, take you 5 min.
> 
> View attachment 181610
> ...


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## sledman8002002 (Jan 20, 2021)

In my experience no, it dissipates heat extremely well.


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## groomerz (Feb 7, 2015)

Looking at toro site Only the commercial 721 rc and 821rc have the extended life paddles. And those don’t have e start or quick shoot
 https://cdn2.toro.com/en/-/media/F...g-pages/winwinter/sn_20_490-0547_ss_links.pdf


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mountain Man (Oct 14, 2018)

Honestly, the only performance upgrade between machines( most options cosmetic or fluff) is raw power. I buy the biggest engine I can. I do a half dozen neighbors, and when you get the 18"+ storms back to back, that's what separates the men from boys.


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## aa335 (Jan 21, 2020)

Mountain Man said:


> Honestly, the only performance upgrade between machines( most options cosmetic or fluff) is raw power. I buy the biggest engine I can. I do a half dozen neighbors, and when you get the 18"+ storms back to back, that's what separates the men from boys.


I beg to differ. When there's 18 inches or more, the single stage machine even with big engine stays inside. I bring out the 2 stage machine.


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## Mountain Man (Oct 14, 2018)

aa335 said:


> I beg to differ. When there's 18 inches or more, the single stage machine even with big engine stays inside. I bring out the 2 stage machine.


I wasn't advocating the single stage over a 2 stage. My comment was to always get the biggest engine you can afford. My 821qze is for the 1-6" storms, and my Ariens Pro 420cc comes out for real work.


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## Toro addict (10 mo ago)

I recently bought the 821 towards the end of the season after having 1 season of experience with the 721. I've always been a plow only guy until this recent multiple record breaking winter in which the snowbanks got to be too large to push anymore snow into. Became quicker to simply blow the snow. Started the season with a 518 and 721 intended to back up the plow in case of breakdown. By seasons end, between me and my crew, that turned into a PowerMax 826, SnowMaster 824, PowerClear 821 and 2 PowerClear 721's (and a sold 518). To answer the original question, there is not a huge difference between the 821 and 721, in that the 821 isn't going to do anything the 721 can't. The 821 is definitely quicker through deep dense snow though, and if time is money then it's money well spent in these situations. When forced through deep dense snow the 721 can start to fall out of its power band and 'bog-out' requiring the user to 'let up' a bit to let the machine catch up, vs the 821 which I've never experienced this on. Before ever falling out of it's powerband the 821 will simply become too hard to push and bite into the snow (a situation that is unfitting of a paddle). But it should be noted it is quite noticeably heavier. I have over 40 accounts that I do on my portion of the route and I would not want to solo lift the 821 in and out of the truck for every house (the extra 10lbs get's heavier and heavier as the route goes on). In most single stage situations the 721 will be more than enough, and the times the 821 would be warranted are in a grey area of when the next size up is likely the even better choice (SnowMaster 824 for example - Beast). This is why I didn't go further than having only one 821 in my inventory.

My deep snow experience with the 721 and 821 is limited to medium to dry snow.


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