# Conventional or Synthetic oil?



## eddie1976

Trying to figure out which to use. I use synthetic in all my cars and wondering if you guys would recommend synthetic in the blower? I think they are delivered with conventional oil and I was going to do the first oil change with synthetic. Any thoughts? 

thanks


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## pfn

I doubt that a snowblower will get enough use in its' lifetime to see the advantage synthetics give but if you want to essentially eliminate internal wear go for it. 
I use synthetic.


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## superedge88

There are plenty of threads on this forum that go over this very topic, a search will come up with a ton of information.


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## 1894

So far with mine ( same as yours) I changed the oil at around or just under 5 hours of run time with conventional oil. I am thinking of doing the same in another 5 + hours . After that I may switch to synthetic 

One thing I struggled with on mine was taking the cap off the drain-tube extension.. The cap had a blue ( lock-tite ? ) stuff on the threads and the whole tube wanted to unscrew from the engine . I gave up trying to use a wrench to hold the tube still and ended up using a pair of vice grips on the tube and a socket on the cap. I used a plumbing paste thread sealant when I put the cap back on.


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## eddie1976

Thanks guys. I will try the search function again. First time it stalled out. My machine was just delivered. The guy said he would use regular oil, but if I wanted to switch, he recommended waiting 2 seasons to allow the machine to break in with the conventional oil, then switching. 

Bring on the snow!


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## pfn

Don't wait. There are acids in the products of combustion that find their way into the oil. While the oil is sitting in your machine over the summer the acids do their thing. You don't want that. 
Change the oil every spring.


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## superedge88

http://www.snowblowerforum.com/forum/snowblower-repairs-maintenance-forum/22657-4-stroke-oil.html


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## GustoGuy

I use Amsoil synthetic in everything I own. after breaking in the engine it just takes a little longer with synthetic. right now I have over 350,000 on my according to certain members worst of the worst Hyundai Elantra. someone argue that a snowblower will never see conditions that warrant the use of a synthetic. I hate buying the same thing over and over again so go for it if it last longer that's great. It's going to only cost you a couple bucks at most more and if your engine last longer that's a good insurance to me.


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## eddie1976

pfn said:


> Don't wait. There are acids in the products of combustion that find their way into the oil. While the oil is sitting in your machine over the summer the acids do their thing. You don't want that.
> Change the oil every spring.


Sorry, I meant he wants me to run conventional for the first two seasons. He specifically said to change the oil at 8 hrs and use conventional, then change it again before putting it away. I change my oils before the off season on my engines.


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## eddie1976

GustoGuy said:


> I use Amsoil synthetic in everything I own. after breaking in the engine it just takes a little longer with synthetic. right now I have over 350,000 on my according to certain members worst of the worst Hyundai Elantra. someone argue that a snowblower will never see conditions that warrant the use of a synthetic. I hate buying the same thing over and over again so go for it if it last longer that's great. It's going to only cost you a couple bucks at most more and if your engine last longer that's a good insurance to me.


350k is impressive. I use synthetic in all my cars and bikes. I will break in the snowblower with the conventional oil like the dealer said and use full synthetic after that.


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## Spectrum

Objectively there are two very real reasons to choose synthetic if they apply to you. 

At lower starting temperatures, like -10F and below conventional oils will misbehave. The conventional oil will cease to flow and the splash wheel or slinger will whip it to a foam until snot blows from your breather. I have had a close call and engine failures have been associated with this. It is after my close call that I switched.

The other reason is equipment that sees swing season use, like a tractor. 5-30 synthetic can be a year round oil with safe easy starts all of the time. Likewise if you are out there cleaning up that spring storm on 40F+ weather.

So if your in the north country with machines that live in cold places there is very real value.More here

Pete


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## lclement

GustoGuy said:


> I use Amsoil synthetic in everything I own. after breaking in the engine it just takes a little longer with synthetic. right now I have over 350,000 on my according to certain members worst of the worst Hyundai Elantra. someone argue that a snowblower will never see conditions that warrant the use of a synthetic. I hate buying the same thing over and over again so go for it if it last longer that's great. It's going to only cost you a couple bucks at most more and if your engine last longer that's a good insurance to me.



I too use amsoil products in most equipment that I own as well. Have a 03 Camry that’s ran amsoil since 2005 exclusively. Has 107,xxx miles on I now and still runs great! 

As for snow blowers it may be true they will not see enough use but I think the benefit from synthetic that you get is longer oil life more consistent lubrication from storage. Synthetics have a higher base number to combat acids.

I use amsoil in my lawn equipment as well. To me it’s worth the extra couple bucks to have everything synthetic. 

If I were you I would break in with the oil it came with then switch to a synthetic at net oil change but I would not leave original oil in the machine for more than 6 months regardless if you get enough snow to break it in.


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## SnowGuy69

I think your forgetting a very important part of the discussion, the oil weight. I think this will help: Motor Oil 101 - Bob is the Oil Guy - Bob is the Oil Guy

If you read all chapters, you will have a much better understanding of oil.


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## detdrbuzzard

I use mobile1 5w 30 n all the two stage snowblowers mainly because it flows better when cold. I don't have room to work in my garage and had to do an oilc hange on the last toro 521 out in the cold. what I found was water in the crank case along with the oil, so much for that quart of mobile1. I went back to auto zone and got a quart of mobile1 and auto zone brand 5w 30 dino oil. the next day I used the auto zone oil to flush the water out, it poured out the bottle so slow I went in the house and had a small lunch, some was still in the bottle when I came back out. the mobile1 was out of the bottle before I got back from taking a bathroom break. as far as winter time ope is concerned i'll use synthetic summer time ope still gets good old castrol conventional oil poured in them


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## whimsey

Both my generator and snow blower are kept in my semi heated garage. For the gen I'm using B&S 5W-30 synthetic oil because the generator tends to run in all temps and for longer periods between checking the oil. And if I don't meet the 50 hour change schedule yearly I don't change it. The snow blower is getting Shell Rotella T 10W-30 because it'll work harder and I'll change it once a year or every 50 hours. My garage space is tight but I'm able to change the oil in doors in the winter.

Whimsey


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## jmb3675

I am currently using 5w-20 synthetic blend in my snow blowers. The Briggs on my Gilsons say to use 5w-20 in winter, and I just use it on the Tecumseh too. I use synthetic blend in both of my vehicles and there is always enough left to do a change on the snow blowers. I used a full synthetic on one of my cars this winter. If I don't have to top off the car, I will have enough to use it in the Tecumseh on my Spirit snow blower. 
I would use synthetic blend even if I was using a different weight oil. The price is usually the same or very close to conventional. The only problem is blends don't tell you if it is a 1% or 99% synthetic. 

Not all synthetic blends are the same either. I used Citgo syn blend 5w-20 in my car last winter and at temps colder than 20 below it would not turn over fast enough to start before the battery was dead. I got a new battery after the first time and it didn't help. So after the second time I changed it to Valvoline Maxlife synthetic blend. A week later it was 25 below and she started up so easy it was like it was in a heated garage all night instead of sitting in the lot at work for 12 hours. I didn't have any trouble the rest of the winter. My favorite Gilson has the same Citgo blend and hasn't had trouble yet, but I have only used it once and it was 20 above. Even if I don't use it again this year, I am putting better oil in before storage. It will even start with one pull after summer storage even if I forget to drain the tank and carb. That one always starts easy on the first pull with any kind of oil. The Tecumseh and my other Briggs engines do seem to start easier in the cold with a blend than with a conventional.

The summer engines get conventional 10-w30.


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## ChrisJ

I run Mobil 1 in everything I own.
Personally, my understanding is synthetics deal with moisture much better than conventional oils and if that is the case, it's a big reason to use it in something that gets little use.

Short run times means a lot of moisture build up in the oil.


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## lclement

I would stick with a synthetic. These day’s engine tolerances are much better than they used to be. The EPA has made all manufactures lean out carburetors to the point that it can makes engines run hotter resulting in higher engine temps. If you have an older engine this may not be an issue however. 

The real thing when it comes to snow blowers is the cold start and long term storage. Stone cold to high rev’s instantly and I think a synthetic will have a low enough pour point to achieve ware protection during these cold starts. If you are lucky enough to have a heated garage then this issue becomes less of a concern but still I think compared to conventional oil synthetics have proven time and time again they are superior. 

I only change the oil in my machines and vehicles once a year and never even worry about oil or engine ware. 

This is what I run in my arines 7524 
http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-produ...10w-30-sae-30-small-engine-oil/?code=ASEQT-EA

In my Honda it has regular Honda oem in it at this point as I need to read more about that engine. My Honda may be an exception to stay with the recommended oem oil because of their great engineering and design and since I think their oil is already a synthetic. However I do run the same oil 10W-30 linked above in a Honda push mower since 2007 and had no issues to date.


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## Normex

One of the best inherent qualities synthetic has, is with their smaller particles sizes which by its nature seals everything with working parts namely the rings, valve stems and crankshaft bearings along with the rod connection to the crank, basically everyone can see this by the very slow tendency of the oil to darken as opposed to conventional oil.
Very hard to refute this aspect.


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## lclement

Here is another good oil and probably better then what I have been using. AMSOIL Formula 4-Stroke PowerSports 0W-40 has a higher base number for acid naturalization and a wider range (0W-40)


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## GustoGuy

Another benifit from using a synthetic is how clean the inside of your engine will remain. Coventional oil contains impurities such as parafins and tars which heat from the engine will react with byproducts of combustion to form sludge. Back in 2011 I replaced my valve cove gasket on my Hyundia Elantra and the inside of my engine is extremly clean with no sludge deposits. Sludge kills engines and even small engines can get sludged up and dirty after many years. Synthetic will help to keep your engine cleaner since they hold up to heat much better.


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## gibbs296

National motor oil on sale for $2.29 a quart at menards will work just fine. Change it at the start of the season and use the money saved for beer.


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## UNDERTAKER

gibbs296 said:


> National motor oil on sale for $2.29 a quart at menards will work just fine. Change it at the start of the season and use the money saved for beer.


 I see you have retuned once again there BROTHER GIBBS.


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## scipper77

One thing that nobody has really brought up is that air cooled motors tend to see higher temps internally. Especially when being run with a heavy load. Synthetic oil offers better protection when it is freezing out *and* can operate at higher temps without breaking down at the same time.


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## pfn

I don't doubt for a second that synthetic oil is dramatically better than conventional oil. Just so you know where I coming from I own several quick lubes so oil is my business. I tell my customers that if they plan to sell their car before 150,000 miles use conventional, just change the oil as recommended. Regarding snowblowers my question is given the use a snowblower engine gets in the life of the blower will it ever see the benefit of using synthetic. Assuming yearly oil changes convectional oil will sustain an engine for the life of the blower. My guess is the engine would be just about the last thing to go thus rendering the need for synthetic nil. I use synthetic in everything I can but in my heart I think it is overkill in my snowblower.


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## superedge88

pfn said:


> I don't doubt for a second that synthetic oil is dramatically better than conventional oil. Just so you know where I coming from I own several quick lubes so oil is my business. I tell my customers that if they plan to sell their car before 150,000 miles use conventional, just change the oil as recommended. Regarding snowblowers my question is given the use a snowblower engine gets in the life of the blower will it ever see the benefit of using synthetic. Assuming yearly oil changes convectional oil will sustain an engine for the life of the blower. My guess is the engine would be just about the last thing to go thus rendering the need for synthetic nil. I use synthetic in everything I can but in my heart I think it is overkill in my snowblower.


I hear what you're saying, I agree that it may be overkill, but it is cheap overkill. It's nice to be able to rule out lubrication as the culprit if there is ever an engine issue.


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## Normex

superedge88 said:


> I hear what you're saying, I agree that it may be overkill, but it is cheap overkill. It's nice to be able to rule out lubrication as the culprit if there is ever an engine issue.


+1 and the chance that the engine will overlast the tractor which many many times is the other way around.


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## rut3556

>>I use Amsoil synthetic in everything I own<<

Same here, and that includes diesel tractors, cars, trucks, and motorcycles.


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## pfn

Normex said:


> +1 and the chance that the engine will overlast the tractor which many many times is the other way around.


 
Synthetic makes good sense economically in the case of anything that gets a lot of use. No argument. Most snowblowers may get 20 hours of use a year and not nearly that much in my area. If money is tight and there is no obvious benefit to be seen from synthetic why use it?


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## superedge88

If money is so tight that someone honestly can't afford the 1-5 dollars more for the small amount of oil that goes in a snowblower, then by all means get the cheapest oil you can afford. 
I can completely understand someone not wanting to spend the premium for a high quality synthetic like amsoil in their truck that takes 7-10+ quarts (even though you can literally double oil change intervals) but for a snowblower, it makes no sense to me.


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## Kiss4aFrog

There may be no "obvious" benefit but for something I need to start up every time I need it at up to 30 below I feel more comfortable having synthetic oil in there. Had to understand someone wouldn't pay a few bucks extra a year for a better product.


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## pfn

superedge88 said:


> If money is so tight that someone honestly can't afford the 1-5 dollars more for the small amount of oil that goes in a snowblower, then by all means get the cheapest oil you can afford.
> I can completely understand someone not wanting to spend the premium for a high quality synthetic like amsoil in their truck that takes 7-10+ quarts (even though you can literally double oil change intervals) but for a snowblower, it makes no sense to me.


I guess that's why they make chocolate and vanilla... different tastes for different folks. 
As I said I use synthetic but I don't think I get the benefit. Just sayin'.


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## Normex

pfn said:


> As I said I use synthetic but I don't think I get the benefit. Just sayin'.


As a layman using small engines for over 35 yrs it took me a while to embrace synthetic but when I did it was a decision I would never reverse because its cost is still affordable and I mean I don't use the more expensive Amsoil just a good quality synthetic. I am judging its effectiveness just by looking at the oil after more than 25hrs of use, and it looks almost like the day it was changed, this alone made me a convert as the conventional which turns black with sooth passing through the rings to the crankcase.
Synthetic simply seals a lot better, protecting your valve stems and so forth then I read what Bob is the Oilman for a more in depth knowledge that any can understand. Just saying


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## GustoGuy

Conventional oil can get extremely viscous almost like honey or even molasses or a semi-solid even at very cold temperatures like -10F or colder. however synthetic oil will pour even colder than -40F. It can take several to many seconds before the oils is warmed up enough to be thin enough to be splashed around since most small engines are splash lubricated you can see why it's important for the oil to flow quickly. if you would have your snow blower and heated garage probably not a problem. Otherwise if you could increase the wear on the engine until the warmth of the engine allows the oil to flow again since most small engines use a half a quart to 1 quart of oil the cost increase is very small over conventional oil. However if you have engine failure due to lack of lubrication due to the conventional oil being as thick as honey or molasses it will cost way more money than the small cost increase due to the synthetic oil.


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## Kiss4aFrog

For everything oil, ask Bob - - - > Motor Oil 101 - Bob is the Oil Guy - Bob is the Oil Guy

Oil forums to ask anything oil - - > Bob Is The Oil Guy | The Internet's Number One Motor Oil Site


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## pfn

GustoGuy said:


> Conventional oil can get extremely viscous almost like honey or even molasses or a semi-solid even at very cold temperatures like -10F or colder. however synthetic oil will pour even colder than -40F. It can take several to many seconds before the oils is warmed up enough to be thin enough to be splashed around since most small engines are splash lubricated you can see why it's important for the oil to flow quickly. if you would have your snow blower and heated garage probably not a problem. Otherwise if you could increase the wear on the engine until the warmth of the engine allows the oil to flow again since most small engines use a half a quart to 1 quart of oil the cost increase is very small over conventional oil. However if you have engine failure due to lack of lubrication due to the conventional oil being as thick as honey or molasses it will cost way more money than the small cost increase due to the synthetic oil.


You folks seem to missing my position.
I agree that there will be less internal wear with synthetic. There will be virtually no internal wear with synthetic. It's good stuff.
I am saying that a snowblower engine will last the life of a of the entire unit with conventional oil because snowblower engines are used so infrequently, <20 hrs./year typically. 
My opinion is that the use of synthetic in snowblowers is an emotional response rather than a practical response. Synthetic makes you feel better about your equipment, not an insignificant factor, rather than a logical choice. 
I use synthetic because it is better oil not because it will provide a better result. I don't know how to price that.


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## GustoGuy

At -10F and colder conventional oil will be almost semi-solid and not available to lubricate until engine heat warms which will thin the oil enough to be splashed around. If you store your machine out doors or in an unheated shed the actual temp can get down below the temperature below were the oil starts to turn into a thick viscous semi- solid. So Synthetic will offer better lubrication at extremely cold temperatures. I use synthetic conventional oil in extreme cold temperatures will not lubricate effectively until the oil liquefies again. It's your engine use whatever oil you want.


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## pfn

GustoGuy said:


> At -10F and colder conventional oil will be almost semi-solid and not available to lubricate until engine heat warms which will thin the oil enough to be splashed around. If you store your machine out doors or in an unheated shed the actual temp can get down below the temperature below were the oil starts to turn into a thick viscous semi- solid. So Synthetic will offer better lubrication at extremely cold temperatures. I use synthetic conventional oil in extreme cold temperatures will not lubricate effectively until the oil liquefies again. It's your engine use whatever oil you want.


How did we ever manage before synthetic... it's amazing that the species survived. 

Just an aside.. It has NEVER gone down to - 10 in Annapolis so I should spend money on the possibility that has never occurred? Doesn't make much sense in my view. And back to my point, if conventional will work just fine for the life of product why is more needed. Bridges are built to support a working load, doubling the steel in it may make it stronger but to what advantage? Why over engineer anything?


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## GustoGuy

Synthetic oil were created to lubricate jet engine turbine bearings when it was found that conventional oil cannot withstand the pressure and heat. One of the founders of AMSOIL Mr Amatuzo Was in the United States Air Force And he thought why synthetic oil may work well in car engines. He developed the first synthetic motor oil suitable for automotive use. When it was first released in 1972 Amsoil was vastly superior to any conventional oil on the market. right now most automobile manufacturers recommend at least a partial synthetic oil. Better cold weather protection and high temperature protection. much higher load capacity and extreme pressure protection as well with synthetics. It may be overkill for a small engine but it's a small price to pay for added protection.


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## superedge88

pfn said:


> How did we ever manage before synthetic... it's amazing that the species survived.
> 
> Just an aside.. It has NEVER gone down to - 10 in Annapolis so I should spend money on the possibility that has never occurred? Doesn't make much sense in my view. And back to my point, if conventional will work just fine for the life of product why is more needed. Bridges are built to support a working load, doubling the steel in it may make it stronger but to what advantage? Why over engineer anything?


To use your analogy, bridges are built stronger today than they ever have been. Todays bridges are also over engineered beyond the load that they are ever rated to carry. If you told a bridge builder that you can at least double the useful life of the bridge by spending 20% more you will have their ear. 

Maintenance is about keeping danger at more than arms length. I choose to be futher from danger, you choose to be closer to danger. Neither of us is wrong, but one of use is safer, and I'll always choose safer when the expense is less than the cost of a cheap lunch.


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## Kiss4aFrog

One small addition to GustoGuy's post: Synthetic will pull start easier. For all of us with unheated storage it makes a big difference.


ON a side note, happy to see three more extremists turned to maryters. To bad they couldn't just shoot themselves to begin with and leave normal people alone.


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## pfn

superedge88 said:


> To use your analogy, bridges are built stronger today than they ever have been. Todays bridges are also over engineered beyond the load that they are ever rated to carry. If you told a bridge builder that you can at least double the useful life of the bridge by spending 20% more you will have their ear.
> 
> Maintenance is about keeping danger at more than arms length. I choose to be futher from danger, you choose to be closer to danger. Neither of us is wrong, but one of use is safer, and I'll always choose safer when the expense is less than the cost of a cheap lunch.


I don't disagree with anything you're saying. 
I use synthetics as I have said. 
I am only saying that with the few hours snowblowers, unlike tractors, lawnmowers and other machines that get a lot of use, conventional oil will provide the same result as synthetic... in a snowblower. It is my opinion that you will not increase the life of the snowblower using synthetic. I think I am guilty of wasting my money. I should get the cheap lunch.
This is a similar to another discussion in the forum about bearings vs. bushings. Bearing are better than bushings, no doubt, but if you get the same performance in certain applications why add the expense of the better product?

Is this horse dead yet?


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## superedge88

pfn said:


> I don't disagree with anything you're saying.
> I use synthetics as I have said.
> I am only saying that with the few hours snowblowers, unlike tractors, lawnmowers and other machines that get a lot of use, conventional oil will provide the same result as synthetic... in a snowblower. It is my opinion that you will not increase the life of the snowblower using synthetic. I think I am guilty of wasting my money. I should get the cheap lunch.
> This is a similar to another discussion in the forum about bearings vs. bushings. Bearing are better than bushings, no doubt, but if you get the same performance in certain applications why add the expense of the better product?
> 
> Is this horse dead yet?


If YOU are 100% sure that there is no advantage to synthetic in YOUR snowblower then YOU should go conventional and try to enjoy a cheap lunch.
I choose to not over think things and stay with synthetic which I know is protecting my machinery 100%
Will that cheap lunch really be that satisfying?


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## pfn

If using synthetic makes you fell better.... go for it. If you choose to use synthetic go whole hog and use Amsoil. It's better than the major refiners products but your snowblower will still won't last any longer. Maybe you can use the engine on a nice used machine sometime in the future. That will be an option.


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## Surge

Given that the extra cost is equal to a bag of chips or a beer I will choose synthetic over conventional without having to think about it for a second. 
Easier starts in cold weather alone would be reason enough. 
Less friction means less wear, which in turn should mean longer engine life.
However, I agree that any added life might not be significant enough to make a difference for most users because most blowers are not used very much.


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## Sid

I know that maintenance is the key, and I use synthetic oil in all of my engines,cars, and boat [350 chevy]. I need all the help I can get.
Sid


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## Kiss4aFrog

I think that cold start advantage is well worth the couple bucks. Especially if you don't have electric start or it goes out on you and your left pull starting a cold machine.


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## caddydaddy

I just use the same oil I use in my other vehicles. It happens to be synthetic, so that's what I use!


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## pfn

caddydaddy said:


> I just use the same oil I use in my other vehicles. It happens to be synthetic, so that's what I use!


That's the best reason I heard.


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## ChrisJ

pfn said:


> I don't disagree with anything you're saying.
> I use synthetics as I have said.
> I am only saying that with the few hours snowblowers, unlike tractors, lawnmowers and other machines that get a lot of use, conventional oil will provide the same result as synthetic... in a snowblower. It is my opinion that you will not increase the life of the snowblower using synthetic. I think I am guilty of wasting my money. I should get the cheap lunch.
> *This is a similar to another discussion in the forum about bearings vs. bushings. Bearing are better than bushings, no doubt, but if you get the same performance in certain applications why add the expense of the better product?*
> 
> Is this horse dead yet?



Not quite dead yet.
The early 1930s GE refrigerators I restore use force fed hardened steel bushings in their motors. Many of them have well over 100,000 hours on them and are still like new. Depending on the version some even have a compressor unloader that works from oil pressure. It doesn't allow any strain on the pump until the bearings have pressure. Another version uses a centrifugal unloader, but still has an unloader none the less.

Is a greased bushing as good as a greased ball or roller bearing? Probably not, but like you said it depends on the application.

Is a greased ball bearing as good as a bushing that is pressurized by an oil pump that is feeding it cooled oil? I highly doubt it.


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## Normex

ChrisJ said:


> Not quite dead yet.
> Is a greased bushing as good as a greased ball or roller bearing? Probably not, but like you said it depends on the application.
> 
> Is a greased ball bearing as good as a bushing that is pressurized by an oil pump that is feeding it cooled oil? I highly doubt it.


 This is interesting for small shop talk and a tip of the hat to those of the 1920's era to apply their engineer's skills to a level that had their machinery last to this day often (maybe because of the depression?), as opposed to today's buy, use and discard economy pressure.
As for bearings against bushings it would first depend on the metal hardness of each and that is another discussion perhaps amongst engineers? Very good point though on different eras of machine engineering.


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## ChrisJ

Normex said:


> This is interesting for small shop talk and a tip of the hat to those of the 1920's era to apply their engineer's skills to a level that had their machinery last to this day often (maybe because of the depression?), as opposed to today's buy, use and discard economy pressure.
> As for bearings against bushings it would first depend on the metal hardness of each and that is another discussion perhaps amongst engineers? Very good point though on different eras of machine engineering.


I think we're on the same page.
You can't just say "bearing vs bushing" as there is far more to it, including what kind of abuse it will have to handle.


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## pfn

ChrisJ said:


> Not quite dead yet.
> The early 1930s GE refrigerators I restore use force fed hardened steel bushings in their motors. Many of them have well over 100,000 hours on them and are still like new. Depending on the version some even have a compressor unloader that works from oil pressure. It doesn't allow any strain on the pump until the bearings have pressure. Another version uses a centrifugal unloader, but still has an unloader none the less.
> 
> Is a greased bushing as good as a greased ball or roller bearing? Probably not, but like you said it depends on the application.
> 
> Is a greased ball bearing as good as a bushing that is pressurized by an oil pump that is feeding it cooled oil? I highly doubt it.


That's interesting. I have never heard of force fed bushings. 
It sounds something like a very old bearing called a Babbitt. When I was young, (I thing I was once young, I can't remember) I worked at a hotel in D.C. One of the large air handlers still had babbitts instead of convectional bearings. I was told that they (there we two, probably 2" bearing) were the last ones in the city. My boss was crazy about them and woe to anyone that messed with them. The machining was extremely precise. It is difficult to describe how they worked but they were unlike any other bearing I ever saw. If they were properly maintained I'm told that had an infinite lifespan if such a thing is possible. Infinite because once in operation no metal surfaces were touching. The bearing parts "floated" on a film of oil. Because of the precision they were expensive so like many other good ideas they are a thing of the past.

Edit. The lubrication of these babbitts were not pressurized. It simply sat in an oil bath. You could open the top to an oil and watch the Babbitt at work. It was a thing of beauty.


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## ChrisJ

pfn said:


> That's interesting. I have never heard of force fed bushings.
> It sounds something like a very old bearing called a Babbitt. When I was young, (I thing I was once young, I can't remember) I worked at a hotel in D.C. One of the large air handlers still had babbitts instead of convectional bearings. I was told that they (there we two, probably 2" bearing) were the last ones in the city. My boss was crazy about them and woe to anyone that messed with them. The machining was extremely precise. It is difficult to describe how they worked but they were unlike any other bearing I ever saw. If they were properly maintained I'm told that had an infinite lifespan if such a thing is possible. Infinite because once in operation no metal surfaces were touching. The bearing parts "floated" on a film of oil. Because of the precision they were expensive so like many other good ideas they are a thing of the past.



All car engines use them, essentially.
Babbit bearings disappeared in the 1950s and were replaced by inserts which are essentially pressure fed bushings.


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## pfn

ChrisJ said:


> I think we're on the same page.
> You can't just say "bearing vs bushing" as there is far more to it, including what kind of abuse it will have to handle.


I don't disagree. What I'm am saying that to use a more expensive part when a cheaper alternative will provide the same level of service makes no sense to me. 
There IS real value in the piece of mind that a more expensive part may provide but that is an emotional response, not a logical response to my thinking. That is why I have a commercial grade snowblower rather than a consumer machine that would, most likely, do the same job. It's the same reason I use synthetic oil.


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## ChrisJ

pfn said:


> I don't disagree. *What I'm am saying that to use a more expensive part when a cheaper alternative will provide the same level of service makes no sense to me. *
> There IS real value in the piece of mind that a more expensive part may provide but that is an emotional response, not a logical response to my thinking. That is why I have a commercial grade snowblower rather than a consumer machine that would, most likely, do the same job. It's the same reason I use synthetic oil.


I also agree with this.
What I am a little confused by, and this isn't at you, but other comments I've seen in the thread is claims that synthetic automatically makes it easier to pull start the engine.

As far as I know, 5w30 is the same exact viscosity whether it's synthetic or convectional 0W30 will without a doubt be far easier to pull, and easier on the engine cold, but 5w30 synthetic should absolutely no difference in this regard.

My main concern and why I use synthetic in all of my small engines is moisture due to short run times and never really getting heated up good.


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## pfn

ChrisJ said:


> All car engines use them, essentially.
> Babbit bearings disappeared in the 1950s and were replaced by inserts which are essentially pressure fed bushings.


I may be calling what I though was a babbitt by the wrong name (don't do that with your wife). 
Cranks are slightly similar to what I an taking about but not quite the same.
The bearing I was talking about was a collar on the shaft starting at nearly an inch wide at the shaft and narrowed to nearly a point, cut at about 45"s. This collar rested in an oil bath on a carrier shaped to exactly accept the collar. I'm told that once the machine began turning the collar picked up an oil film that prevented the metal from touching. 
I goggled babbitt and looked for pictures but found nothing.


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## pfn

ChrisJ said:


> I also agree with this.
> What I am a little confused by, and this isn't at you, but other comments I've seen in the thread is claims that synthetic automatically makes it easier to pull start the engine.
> 
> As far as I know, 5w30 is the same exact viscosity whether it's synthetic or convectional 0W30 will without a doubt be far easier to pull, and easier on the engine cold, but 5w30 synthetic should absolutely no difference in this regard.
> 
> My main concern and why I use synthetic in all of my small engines is moisture due to short run times and never really getting heated up good.





ChrisJ said:


> All car engines use them, essentially.
> Babbit bearings disappeared in the 1950s and were replaced by inserts which are essentially pressure fed bushings.


On viscosity I had the same question. I do know that the oil companies make the claim that synthetics pour better in cold temps. They wouldn't lie to us would they?
As far as the moisture goes I was told, by whom and how long ago I have no idea, was that 140"s F. is the magic number. Get the oil to that temp for some extended time and the moisture will evaporate. Who knows.


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## Surge

It is my understanding that 5W-30 synthetic oil has a wider range of temperature that it can operate under versus 5W-30 conventional oil. My owners manual specifically recommends using 5W-30 synthetic oil, so in my case I do not consider conventional oil a viable option.
The owners manual shows a chart that indicates that synthetic 5W-30 oil is good to use from about-30F to 104F. The same viscosity of conventional is good from -30F to about 40F. That is my estimate from looking at the chart in my manual.
There are many times in the spring when I am blowing heavy wet snow and the temperature is a little bit above 40F, and I would feel better using synthetic under those conditions. There are several You Tube videos showing conventional oils, blended oils, and synthetic oils of the same viscosity that are poured after 
being chilled to -40F. The only ones that flowed freely were the synthetic oils. The others came out in chunks as they had solidified to some degree. So for those living in extremely cold conditions there appears to be an advantage to using synthetic if your blower is not garaged.
I am not an expert by any means on this subject. I rely on my owners manuals advice, and on advice from engineers that have written on the subject or performed tests. I suppose they could be giving me false information, but it sounds and looks reasonable to me.


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## pfn

Surge said:


> It is my understanding that 5W-30 synthetic oil has a wider range of temperature that it can operate under versus 5W-30 conventional oil. My owners manual specifically recommends using 5W-30 synthetic oil, so in my case I do not consider conventional oil a viable option.
> The owners manual shows a chart that indicates that synthetic 5W-30 oil is good to use from about-30F to 104F. The same viscosity of conventional is good from -30F to about 40F. That is my estimate from looking at the chart in my manual.
> There are many times in the spring when I am blowing heavy wet snow and the temperature is a little bit above 40F, and I would feel better using synthetic under those conditions. There are several You Tube videos showing conventional oils, blended oils, and synthetic oils of the same viscosity that are poured after
> being chilled to -40F. The only ones that flowed freely were the synthetic oils. The others came out in chunks as they had solidified to some degree. So for those living in extremely cold conditions there appears to be an advantage to using synthetic if your blower is not garaged.
> I am not an expert by any means on this subject. I rely on my owners manuals advice, and on advice from engineers that have written on the subject or performed tests. I suppose they could be giving me false information, but it sounds and looks reasonable to me.


It's very likely that synthetics flow better at cold temps. I was under the impression that the 5 in 5w30 meant that it would flow at a particular temp. Maybe it's a bit more complex than that.
That said I do believe that you are mistaken about the upper limit of 5w30 oil of 40 degs. Many, maybe most, cars spec 5w30 and for sure they operate above 40.


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## Surge

If I am mistaken about the 40F degree upper limit then it would mean that my owners manuals information is incorrect. I could try and attach a picture of the chart or see if I can find a link to the manual for you to look at. The chart is not very detailed so I could be off by a couple degrees in either direction. 
From what I read tests indicate that synthetic oil of the same viscosity will flow better at lower temperatures than conventional oil. There are a few videos that show this, and they are very convincing. Unless they doctored the videos it's difficult to dispute. I tried to avoid reading anything written by the oil companies as they may have an agenda.
There are also natural contaminants in conventional oil that are not removed completely by the refining process (paraffin, silicon, sulfur, wax, dust). These can form deposits in an engine under certain conditions. In the videos you can see the paraffin that has hardened. Even the blended oils did not look that great. 
I think if a blower engine is designed to run on conventional oil and for the most part is run in temperatures ranging between -15F and 35F then there probably is very little benefit to using synthetic oil. Perhaps a slight benefit from not having as many contaminants, and less friction due to the structure of the oil molecules. But the difference may be so slight as to not have any noticeable effect on performance or longevity. I will leave that argument to more educated minds than mine. Since my engine recommends synthetic oil, it's an easy decision for me.
Not sure if car engines and snow blower engines are comparable. It may be that car engines are engineered to work okay with that type of oil and higher temperatures due to how the oil is distributed, filtered, tolerances and so forth. That is also a discussion I will leave to more qualified people to answer.


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## pfn

I'm sure you are right about your manual, I just can't figure out why they make that claim. Snowblower engines aren't that different than lawnmower engines and I think they get the same oil. I'm clueless. It would be interesting to know why they make that claim.
I believe that synthetics are vastly superior to conventional oils in preventing internal wear. I use them in everything I own but I expect my snowblower to fall down around my still pristine engine. I expect essentially no internal wear with synthetic oil, it's just that even using conventional oils, which are under continuous improvement by the refiners btw, will get my engine to last at least as long as the other component of my machine. It won't last as long as an engine using synthetic but long enough. I can't say that about my cars or lawnmower as they get much more use.
Good discussion.


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## jmb3675

I started my two main snow blowers on Friday. They both still have the Citgo 5w-20 synthetic blend I mentioned before. I used my Spirit to clear the drifts out of my driveway and tested a repair on my Gilson on my neighbors driveway. It was -2F outside when I started them. The overnight low -6F and it was below zero all night. 
The Tecumseh on the Spirit was hard to start. It took 6 pulls to start and had to be restarted once. When it finally did it, it barely ran until it started to warm up it took almost a minute to run smooth. The 7hp Briggs on the Gilson started on the second pull. It ran really rough as well until it started to warm up. It took 30 seconds or so to smooth out. I decided to try starting one of my other Gilsons that has conventional 5w-20 in the Briggs engine. It started on the second pull and ran fine as soon as I turned the choke off. That awful Citgo oil is being drained later today after it warms up a little. I don't know if it was a bad batch, or if it is just not a thin enough oil. 

Last winter when my car had Valvoline Maxlife synthetic blend 5w-20 in it, it started in the coldest temps with no trouble. This year I have a full synthetic in my car and I am not impressed. It starts fine but it turns over slower at -10F than it did last winter at -25F with the Blended oil. The engine is also noisier.

Oils within a particular weight will have different properties. For example, Mobil Super full synthetic 5w-20 (Not Mobil 1) has a pour point of -39F. Valvoline conventional has a pour point of -42F. Quaker State conventional has a pour point of -36F But pour point isn't everything. There is cold start ratings (CCS) and pump ability ratings (MRV) to consider as well. For the cold start test (CCS or Cold Crank Simulator) Mobil Super full synthetic scores only slightly better than the Quaker State conventional. The Valvoline conventional is far behind. For Cold pumpability (MRV) The Quaker State conventional scores a little better than the Mobil Super synthetic and both score a quite a bit higher than the Valvoline conventional. 
The tests were designed for car engines and of course most snow blowers do not have an oil pump. So an MRV rating likely does not mean as much. Also, each oil company uses different types of additives to prevent wear and keep an engine clean. Each additive will work differently with each engines build materials and operating conditions.

The point I am trying to make in far too many words is, Synthetic is not always better than conventional. There are too many variables to make a blanket statement that one is always better than the other. I personally have been using synthetic blend oil because I usually use the leftovers from oil changes on my cars.


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## greatwhitebuffalo

eddie1976 said:


> Trying to figure out which to use. I use synthetic in all my cars and wondering if you guys would recommend synthetic in the blower? I think they are delivered with conventional oil and I was going to do the first oil change with synthetic. Any thoughts?
> 
> thanks


 no comparison- synthetic all the way- it's 100x better than conventional
no brainer, it's an IQ test. if you're still using conventional oil in any power equipment, you flunked. just an analogy, no insult intended


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## jmb3675

I should add that is based on appropriate oil change schedules. my small engines, for example, get oil changes once per year. I know the oil has life left, but I prefer not to take chances with moisture and dirt since they are not filtered. Synthetic just would not be an advantage for me. Even in my car changing the oil is easy so I don't mind doing it often. 

I should also add, For my mom's car and her equipment, that I may not get to service on time, I do use Full synthetic oil. It is more forgiving if it isn't changed on time, and that is where I see the value in synthetic oil. I think synthetic oil has a distinct advantage with its durability during longer oil change intervals. If my car was hard to change the oil, or if I didn't enjoy doing it or if I forgot all the time I would use synthetic in mine as well.


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## Surge

I have two Honda lawn mowers and I have been using 10W-30 conventional oil that is branded by Honda. Their oil SM is usually more refined than the standard stuff and measured out so its easy for me to do the oil changes. That viscosity is good for most mowing conditions, so I have been using that. One mower is eight years old, and the other one I use on my father's place is about fifteen years old. Both start on the first pull, and both were the top of the line residential mower in their day. The fifteen year old one sat around in my neighbors garage for 10 years and I got that for only $100. I did have to completely clean the carburetor on that due to them leaving gas in it, but overall that was a steal given the commercial grade engine and hydro tranny in it. After reading about all the benefits of synthetic oil I am thinking about trying it in that mower this summer to see if it makes any difference. The Honda oil was not cheap, so there may not be any price difference. I just wonder though, if it ain't broke don't fix it?
I believe the chart in my owners manual listing the temperature ranges for various viscosities of oil may be specifically for my blowers engine and may not be the same for other engines or applications. I would think the engine manufacturer would have an incentive to recommend the best oil for its engine so that they would not have to pay out on as many engine failures. So I try to follow that advice.


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## pfn

jmb3675 said:


> I should add that is based on appropriate oil change schedules. my small engines, for example, get oil changes once per year. I know the oil has life left, but I prefer not to take chances with moisture and dirt since they are not filtered. Synthetic just would not be an advantage for me. Even in my car changing the oil is easy so I don't mind doing it often.
> 
> I should also add, For my mom's car and her equipment, that I may not get to service on time, I do use Full synthetic oil. It is more forgiving if it isn't changed on time, and that is where I see the value in synthetic oil. I think synthetic oil has a distinct advantage with its durability during longer oil change intervals. If my car was hard to change the oil, or if I didn't enjoy doing it or if I forgot all the time I would use synthetic in mine as well.


I can't believe that I going to make this argument but here goes. 
Any engine using synthetic oil will have reduced internal wear and extended engine life. It is a much better product than conventional oil even though conventional oils are vastly superior to oils of just a few years ago. Synthetics will virtually eliminate internal wear. They are that good.
As far as extended oil change intervals go I was told by a Valvoline rep that they do not recommend extending the interval of synthetics. Not because the oil goes bad but because the additives lose their effectiveness. Marketing? Very likely but who am I to say?


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## pfn

jmb3675 said:


> I started my two main snow blowers on Friday. They both still have the Citgo 5w-20 synthetic blend I mentioned before. I used my Spirit to clear the drifts out of my driveway and tested a repair on my Gilson on my neighbors driveway. It was -2F outside when I started them. The overnight low -6F and it was below zero all night.
> The Tecumseh on the Spirit was hard to start. It took 6 pulls to start and had to be restarted once. When it finally did it, it barely ran until it started to warm up it took almost a minute to run smooth. The 7hp Briggs on the Gilson started on the second pull. It ran really rough as well until it started to warm up. It took 30 seconds or so to smooth out. I decided to try starting one of my other Gilsons that has conventional 5w-20 in the Briggs engine. It started on the second pull and ran fine as soon as I turned the choke off. That awful Citgo oil is being drained later today after it warms up a little. I don't know if it was a bad batch, or if it is just not a thin enough oil.
> 
> Last winter when my car had Valvoline Maxlife synthetic blend 5w-20 in it, it started in the coldest temps with no trouble. This year I have a full synthetic in my car and I am not impressed. It starts fine but it turns over slower at -10F than it did last winter at -25F with the Blended oil. The engine is also noisier.
> 
> Oils within a particular weight will have different properties. For example, Mobil Super full synthetic 5w-20 (Not Mobil 1) has a pour point of -39F. Valvoline conventional has a pour point of -42F. Quaker State conventional has a pour point of -36F But pour point isn't everything. There is cold start ratings (CCS) and pump ability ratings (MRV) to consider as well. For the cold start test (CCS or Cold Crank Simulator) Mobil Super full synthetic scores only slightly better than the Quaker State conventional. The Valvoline conventional is far behind. For Cold pumpability (MRV) The Quaker State conventional scores a little better than the Mobil Super synthetic and both score a quite a bit higher than the Valvoline conventional.
> The tests were designed for car engines and of course most snow blowers do not have an oil pump. So an MRV rating likely does not mean as much. Also, each oil company uses different types of additives to prevent wear and keep an engine clean. Each additive will work differently with each engines build materials and operating conditions.
> 
> The point I am trying to make in far too many words is, Synthetic is not always better than conventional. There are too many variables to make a blanket statement that one is always better than the other. I personally have been using synthetic blend oil because I usually use the leftovers from oil changes on my cars.


Great post on pour points. Very helpful. Thanks!


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## Surge

pfn said:


> I can't believe that I going to make this argument but here goes.
> Any engine using synthetic oil will have reduced internal wear and extended engine life. It is a much better product than conventional oil even though conventional oils are vastly superior to oils of just a few years ago. Synthetics will virtually eliminate internal wear. They are that good.
> As far as extended oil change intervals go I was told by a Valvoline rep that they do not recommend extending the interval of synthetics. Not because the oil goes bad but because the additives lose their effectiveness. Marketing? Very likely but who am I to say?


Not sure about additives losing their effectiveness. Never heard that before, and it may be true. But on engines without oil filters I would think one would want to change the oil so as to get rid of any insoluble particles that are produced when running the engine.


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## ChrisJ

The 5 in 5W30 is the thickness the oil is cold, it's the equivlant to SAE 5 at a specific cold temperature. It's also the same viscosity as SAE 30 at 210F.

Basically, it's a 30 weight oil that stays more consistent as it cools. The lower the first number, the more consistent it stays and you can go colder with it. 

Here's a website with decent information on the subject.

Motor Oil Viscosity Grades Explained in Layman's Terms


To me, 5W30 synthetic pours the same @ 20F as any other oil. 0W30 on the other hand is noticeably different. Perhaps 5w30 was different, but it wasn't enough for me to notice.


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## Kiss4aFrog

_* If I am mistaken about the 40F degree upper limit then it would mean that my owners manuals information is incorrect.

*_The owners manual isn't telling you the specs of the oil only what the snow blower and or engine manufacturer is recommending you use in their engine at those temperatures.


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## Kiss4aFrog

ChrisJ said:


> To me, 5W30 synthetic pours the same @ 20F as any other oil. 0W30 on the other hand is noticeably different. Perhaps 5w30 was different, but it wasn't enough for me to notice.


The colder it gets the more noticeable the difference is.


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## Normex

Surge said:


> But on engines without oil filters I would think one would want to change the oil so as to get rid of any insoluble particles that are produced when running the engine.


 So true but what is different about synthetic is with its smaller particles which seals from what is happening in the combustion chamber and lower below the rings and one can see it is still clean looking even after 25 hrs use as opposed to conventional which turn dark of soot from the combustion chamber. Am I the only one who remarks this? 
I consider this a slam dunk on why to use synthetic oil.


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## sciphi

Not sure if temperatures have been mentioned yet. Snowblower engines get pretty hot! As an example, the Tecumseh on my Ariens was showing cylinder head cooling fin surface temperatures in the 330-340*F range, and crankcase surface temperatures of 180*F, as measured by a non-contact IR thermometer. Syn oils are better able to handle the heat than conventional oils.


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## ChrisJ

sciphi said:


> Not sure if temperatures have been mentioned yet. Snowblower engines get pretty hot! As an example, the Tecumseh on my Ariens was showing cylinder head cooling fin surface temperatures in the 330-340*F range, and crankcase surface temperatures of 180*F, as measured by a non-contact IR thermometer. Syn oils are better able to handle the heat than conventional oils.


So now we have extreme highs (typical of aircooled engines) as well as extreme lows.

And I bet more often then not snow blowers end up running short periods which build up moisture in the oil.

More and more says synthetic is a must in a snowblower especially with the small price difference. Even if it was expensive, what's a quart of the best synthetic cost? $9?

I buy 5 quarts of Mobil 1 for $28 or something and end up with left overs every time I do an oil change on our cars. I was up to 3 quarts last time I checked.


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## Normex

ChrisJ said:


> And I bet more often then not snow blowers end up running short periods which build up moisture in the oil.


 I would say it would be safe to say under normal use a snow blower reaches its operating temperature after the first 15 minutes and most outing would be at least 1/2hr so at that point any moisture would have all evaporated and vented out. I think this would be a fair assumption in most of the cases. Just saying.


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## Coby7

eddie1976 said:


> Trying to figure out which to use. I use synthetic in all my cars and wondering if you guys would recommend synthetic in the blower? I think they are delivered with conventional oil and I was going to do the first oil change with synthetic. Any thoughts?
> 
> thanks


I use synthetic in all my engines, never had a failure due to oil. My Outlander has 429000Kms and still goes from oil change to oil change without adding oil. So all my machines run on synthetic. After breaking in periode my Yamaha is getting the good stuff in her.


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## Bror Jace

Hello,
I've been discussing oils and lubes on-line for over a dozen years. The primary benefits of synthetic oils are their performance in temperature extremes … excellent starting and flow in the winter (definitely applies to snowblowers stored in the cold) and survivability in the extreme heat usually associated with extreme summer use and racing applications.


I do not believe synthetic oils are inherently more slippery and protect better. Most of the protection at normal operating temperatures comes from the additive package, specifically the anti-wear adds such as ZDDP, molybdenum, calcium, boron and the like. Some of the best/cleanest UOAs (Used Oil Analyses) I have ever seen were with high-quality conventional oils and modest drain intervals.


Also, for engines without an oil filter, I would not recommend extended drain intervals. Metal bits build up and I can't think this abrasive slurry serves as a quality engine lubricant. Reconsider going more than 1 year or 40 hours between changes regardless of the oil you pick. 


What I _would_ recommend is that you do a handful of oil changes when the engine is brand new. Say, 3-4 oil changes in the engine's first 20 hours. In those cases, use whatever leftover oil you have on hand. Take a look at the nasty oil that came out of my snowblower at the 90 minute mark:


http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee149/BrorJace/Oil Analysis/Snowblower_OilSample_zps40854167.jpg 


Following the 20 hour mark, consider your engine “broken in” and use whatever oil you like with moderate drain intervals. 


Having said all that, I use “Yeti Blood” in my Ariens 28 Deluxe:


http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee149/BrorJace/Oil Analysis/Chevron_Delo_0W-30_large.jpg


It's a 0W30 for great cold weather starting and it's a HDEO (Heavy Duty Engine Oil – for gas or diesel) with a strong additive package (anti-wear, detergents and dispersants) that protect against wear as well as the acids caused bythe byproducts of combustion. I call it Yeti Blood because it is incredibly rare. It took me about a decade to find it. I believe Citgo also makes a 0W30 HDEO, or At least they used to.


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## Normex

Bror Jace said:


> I do not believe synthetic oils are inherently more slippery and protect better.


 In my opinion it does seal the metal pores much better than conventional and one can see it with your eyes since whether in an auto or an air cooled engine without filter, the oil color doesn't hardly darken as much before the next oil change. As for the slippery aspect I really don't know but we could prove to by take a 4'x8' metal sheet and make a 10" wide by the length of each oil and have 2 small iron blocks which by just raising one end of the sheet slightly or until the blocks start to move and see which is more slippery.
I know it's far fetched but would be interesting to find out. Just saying.


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## Bror Jace

*Normex*, if you are trying to compare slipperiness alone, something like a Timken bearing test would work ... but the results can be misleading. Oil does a lot more than lubricate. It provides most of the engine cooling, it must capture and neutralize the byproducts of combustion, it must survive in high-heat and high pressure conditions, etc ... 






I believe bleach actually works surprisingly well in a Timken test ... but no sane person would EVER pour this into an engine unless you were TRYING to destroy it in short order. The video above actually shows shampoo being tested. 

As for discoloration, you might be right, but my experience runs the gamut. Over a decade ago I used Castrol Syntec in an engine and it stayed clean for a long, long time. I switched to Mobil 1 and the same engine turned that very dark, very quickly. Now, does that mean M1 wasn't sealing the rings properly? Breaking down prematurely? Or was it cleaning up residue already in the motor? Really hard to say, but I bet it was the latter.

Early PAO (Group IV) oils were notoriously bad dealing with seals ... and even had miscibility problems where they could not keep their additives in suspension and would not tolerate lead in fuels, specifically AV-gas. Lead build up in cylinders caused premature engine failures.

Mobil 1 had to add some mineral oil to their formula, and/or an ester. Amsoil also adds a dibasic ester (or at least they used to) which is a special synthetic lube that aides the miscibility of PAO as well as cleans the inside of the engine. Red Line Oil is almost all polyol ester. It's esters (Group V) that are used in jet turbine lubes because they will survive at temps up to 700F where even PAO starts to burn.

But is this stuff really the best for an internal engine? Are the solvent effects of pure esters too much for soft metals like lead, copper or bronze? UOAs suggest this is the case. I used to use Red Line Oil in most of my engines but have since switched to other brands. 

And even the term "synthetic" is a term of art. Most people who know the technical issues around oil know about Mobil suing Castrol over their use of hydrocracked crude (Group III) as "synthetic" in the 90s. The API refused to take sides and we are left with "synthetic" being a marketing term meaning almost whatever anyone wants it to mean.

And synthetic blends? They could be 1% Group III and still be labelled synthetic. Best to stick with known, reliable brands and don't be afraid to write to the company if you have any doubts. Not sure how many will be open and honest about their formulations. Most answer you with pleasantries and vagaries about their product that could be interpreted a number of ways.

And there must be hundreds, if not thousands of ways to formulate additive packages. They must perform many jobs and the oil companies will tweak their formulas very several months or so as they attempt to increase protection, enhance cleanliness, deal with higher temps, etc ...

Yes, for those of you wondering, I was one of the original members of BITOG ... member #20, I believe.


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## craquer

Bror Jace said:


> Yes, for those of you wondering, I was one of the original members of BITOG ... member #20, I believe.


 I knew I recognized that username from somewhere... 

No, not Star Wars..


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