# If I were allowed to redesign the two-stage Honda snowblowers . . .



## PracticalProgram (Jan 12, 2014)

I’ve owned an HS928TAS and now have a HS724TA. Both machines are superb in their attention to design details and materials.

But there is one weak area for which I would propose a complete redesign, and that is in the arrangement of the controls.

If I was the product manager for these units, I would establish an design axiom that the user should never have to remove his/her hands from the handles in order to operate the basic controls of the unit.

As I get into tight corners with my machine, or in transiting rough surfaces or thicknesses of snow/ice, I find that I am constantly crossing my right hand over to control the speed, or the power, or reaching down to adjust the chute. That leaves the unit guided by only my left hand and, at times, when one of the drive tracks might be on ice (and the other on snow) I have to prevent rotation of the unit with only one hand--not the best situation.

The electric chute control of the Canadian ‘D’ models is a major step in the right direction, but I think they failed to go all the way.

If I were designing the controls, I would put both the auger and drive engagement controls both on the left-hand handle. I am SURE that the clever design engineers at Honda could design a combination of levers that would accomplish both functions on a single handle.

Then, on the right-hand handle, I would place something like a motorcycle throttle control. I would place that control inboard of the end of the handlebar by several inches so that rotating the control could be accomplished by your thumb and forefinger. This would permit the rest of your hand to remain on the handlebars at all times. This handlebar control would control the electric operation of the chute and would be self-centering—rotating the control to the left would rotate the chute to the left, rotating to the right would rotate the chute to the right, and releasing the control would return the control to a neutral position, stopping movement of the chute. I would also allow this control, in its neutral position, to be slid forward and backward, controlling the deflector at the top of the chute.

I am sure that designing this switch control to operate in all conditions would be the most difficult part of this redesign, but I think it is something that could be overcome, especially by Honda engineers.

The final to-do would be to move the power control to a convenient location, although it would be a lower priority that the chute control. Much like motorcycles have additional switches positioned near the throttle control, one could design the power control near the proposed chute control. I find, however, that of the four controls (auger, drive, power, chute), the power control is my least operated control, so if there were no changes to the power control, I would not push it.

Bottom line, I love my Hondas, but just thought I would throw this out there for discussion.


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## Snowcone (Jul 17, 2013)

That all sounds good. And let me add they should raise the chute rod up above the handles or something. It's too low.


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## dbert (Aug 25, 2013)

Fist things first PracticalProgram, Welcome. Good first post.

I agree completely about various controls being manipulated without removing hands from handles. Some users simply point their machines down a long lane with a rooster tail of snow going off to the side. Others have many tight corners and need for more specific placement of the blown snow and simply don't have enough hands to precisely steer the machine and direct the snow at the same time.

I also believe the engineers will have several challenges to face especially when considering costs. Snow blowers have remained simple machines because of the limited market and consumer demands looking for low prices.

A simple electric motor has environmental concerns (wet, cold)... The motor/actuator needs to have position sensing or some way of knowing the chute has reached its mechanical stop... The operator may be wearing heavy mittens ...
I'm just saying that what you and I want the machine to do is not at all out of reach, but unfortunately someone has to pay for it? I fear that the volume of snow blowers (say compared to lawn mowers) means that the economy of scale (volume pricing of special twist grip for example) is going to ultimately be the reason this will take longer then it should.


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## PracticalProgram (Jan 12, 2014)

Quick reply . . . Honda already has the electrically operated chute in the Canadian market for their equivalent of the 724/928/1332 models, so the electric motor end of this is already done. It adds tremendously to the cost, but I'm not sure why the Canadians are able to pay for this option, but Americans are not.

Anyway, I've re-thought my idea and have simplified it even more. Leave the auger and drive handles where they currently are, but move the joystick that operates the electrics for the chute to under the right handle so that the joystick can be operated by the user's middle finger. With this design, Honda has all the basic parts in its current inventory, sans whatever mounting might be required for the joystick.

Just thinking out-loud.

Thanks guys.


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## db9938 (Nov 17, 2013)

The HS 622 does use the single side, left, for both auger and drive control. But there is a totally manual chute control, and the throttle is on the engine on the left hand side.


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## RHJO51 (Nov 2, 2011)

Hey there, nice thread. I have a HS828TS and my brother has one as well. He told me he loves the machine, but hates the control levers and having to cross his right hand over to control the speed. So he exchanged the cables on the levers. It's very simple to do this. Granted the graphics for the levers are wrong but.. He said I made a huge difference. I haven't tried it but might. The other thing I would change also is the location of the chute crank. I like the manual crank, but it's a pain to bend down to crank it. I also have a Yamaha 624WA and it has the crank up top - so much better! I love the HS828 and have a HS724 as well, they are GREAT. But just say'in. - Jim


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## HH4 (Dec 18, 2013)

I found the controls awkward at first but got used to them quickly. You do have to reach across to adjust ground speed but it's usually just a quick adjustment. I find it much more beneficial to have my right hand free to be able to constantly adjust chute angle and elevation when needed in close quarters. Operation becomes even easier once you realize that with the traction and stability of the tracks you can operate the machine one handed with very little effort. It also doesn't hurt that being several notches under 6' I don't have to bend to far to reach the chute crank.


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## FairfieldCT (Nov 8, 2013)

Well, I have TWO excellent suggestions.

1st: I would definitely offer the 13hp machine with wheels. I have a long, wide drive with several parking areas. It's also flat. I want the maneuverability and balance of the wheeled machine with the larger clearing width and large displacement engine. Why in the world won't Honda offer that?

2nd: A motorcycle like throttle handgrip for the forward/reverse of the hydro. Put the auger control in the left hand, and use the right handgrip as the forward and reverse control. Rotate towards you and go forward... progressively to increase speed. Rotate away from you to go backwards. Then you could eliminate the stick forward back control and integrate it into the handgrip. This would be a HUGE improvement and would make the hydro drive seemless and intuitive.

Are you listening Robert?


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## [email protected] (Nov 21, 2011)

FairfieldCT said:


> Are you listening Robert?


You bet. I always collect this kind of material and pass it on the the product planners. Having working in that group a few years ago, I know it is useful for them to have this kind of information when sitting down with their counterparts in Japan.

Please keep the suggestions and comments coming.


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## db9938 (Nov 17, 2013)

FairfieldCT said:


> Well, I have TWO excellent suggestions.
> 
> 1st: I would definitely offer the 13hp machine with wheels. I have a long, wide drive with several parking areas. It's also flat. I want the maneuverability and balance of the wheeled machine with the larger clearing width and large displacement engine. Why in the world won't Honda offer that?
> 
> ...


Insofar as #2, that along with the traditional engagement lever and cross lever engagement, might be a bit complicated. 

Now, if they could take that idea, and create an oversized ring, just forward of the auger control. It could function in same way that you describe, without the crossover and a lot less complicated. 

This way, your right hand stays on the controls, and your left hand is but inches from actually the handle, and auger engagement. Which would allow that the auger to be disengaged with directional changes. 

It could also maintain some of the original cross lever locks/ratchet feature, without the complexity. 



And I would add to the list, lighting. At the time of day and conditions that most of us are using these machines, you can never have enough.


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## porthole (Feb 5, 2014)

[email protected] said:


> Please keep the suggestions and comments coming.


How about changing the 12 volt light feed to DC so I can use my heated motorcycle gloves?


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## db9938 (Nov 17, 2013)

porthole said:


> How about changing the 12 volt light feed to DC so I can use my heated motorcycle gloves?


That, there made me think. Most of these machines are sold in areas that snowmobiles are sold. Why not make the heated personal comfort accessories cross compatible. Gloves, helmets, etc. 

Seems like a natural cross compatibility marriage.


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## superedge88 (Nov 26, 2013)

porthole said:


> How about changing the 12 volt light feed to DC so I can use my heated motorcycle gloves?


It isn't too difficult to change AC to DC, the main issue is that the voltage isn't 12 volts, is more like 24 volts. A voltage regulator isn't too hard to rig up though. I think that the voltage regulator may present too much of a load to leave much for running the accessories that the conversion was intended for. The amperage available from these stators is not a whole lot, just a few amps.


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## TimY (Oct 27, 2013)

Same old story everything looks good on paper. I realize that you have to balance certain things with a cost and benefit and make certain compromises. But I wish I could make all engineers actually have to use there products in real world circumstances(-40,3 ft snow and be able to dismantle it and put it back together in their driveway in the dark with a flashlight  I bet we all would get better stuff. But don't get me started I just spent over 10 hours getting two studs off my truck just to replace a ten dollar part.


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## porthole (Feb 5, 2014)

superedge88 said:


> It isn't too difficult to change AC to DC, the main issue is that the voltage isn't 12 volts, is more like 24 volts.


Mine is approximately 13.5 AC


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## Kiss4aFrog (Nov 3, 2013)

_*"But I wish I could make all engineers actually have to use there products in real world circumstances"*_

Me too !!! I understand saving money manufacturing it but they make a profit, why can't they make it reasonably easy to maintain and repair ??
That and design a solid part and stick with it. That whole re-designing everything all the time . . . is it just to justify the engineers jobs ?? Look at all the oil filters for cars. Do you really need to design a new on as there isn't already one that meets the demands of an engine ??
When something better comes along I understand but why does every manufacturer have to have a different auger bearing and then change it every couple of years on top of that ??

Sorry, that's just my rant.


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## superedge88 (Nov 26, 2013)

porthole said:


> Mine is approximately 13.5 AC


Is that with load or without?


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## El Grande Migraine (Feb 14, 2014)

RHJO51 said:


> Hey there, nice thread. I have a HS828TS and my brother has one as well. He told me he loves the machine, but hates the control levers and having to cross his right hand over to control the speed. So he exchanged the cables on the levers.It's very simple to do this. Granted the graphics for the levers are wrong but.. He said I made a huge difference. I haven't tried it but might. I love the HS828 and have a HS724 as well, they are GREAT. But just say'in. - Jim




I'm gonna try to resurrect this thread within a thread.

I would also like to switch the hydro/speed control and the chute control. I can see that the speed control cable could be easily swapped, but the re-routing of the chute cable seems next to impossible. I sure would like to see pics (or read a description) of the new path the chute cable takes to accomplish this.

Also, it appears to me that the whole lever assembly for each control could be swapped. If the chute cable can truly be re-routed successfully, then the whole handle assembly could be switched too. That way you wouldn't even have to adjust the cable for each control, and the orange handle would still be used for the hydro/speed control. 

Has anybody else swapped these controls? Can this be done easily? Can this be done without problems?


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## RoyP (Oct 16, 2014)

TimY said:


> Same old story everything looks good on paper. I realize that you have to balance certain things with a cost and benefit and make certain compromises. But I wish I could make all engineers actually have to use there products in real world circumstances(-40,3 ft snow and be able to dismantle it and put it back together in their driveway in the dark with a flashlight  I bet we all would get better stuff. But don't get me started I just spent over 10 hours getting two studs off my truck just to replace a ten dollar part.


Sounds like idler pulleys


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## RoyP (Oct 16, 2014)

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned that it matters if your left or right handed. I'm going to get heat for this, but for me this works great. I've put a small piece of 1.5" PVC pipe to hold down the drive handle, with the drive handle held down, it also keeps the auger drive down.....all I have to move it the speed/direction lever.....works great for me.....forget everything else....just move the one lever,,,,,,then of course the chute turning crank. I can run right up to the end of driveway, stop the forward motion, let the auger clear up the snow that's in the auger housing, then back up.....just one lever does it all. Of course, if I were left handed I would want the auger crank on the left also. Worlds not made perfect, that's up to us.!!


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## db9938 (Nov 17, 2013)

RoyP said:


> I'm surprised that no one has mentioned that it matters if your left or right handed. I'm going to get heat for this, but for me this works great. I've put a small piece of 1.5" PVC pipe to hold down the drive handle, with the drive handle held down, it also keeps the auger drive down.....all I have to move it the speed/direction lever.....works great for me.....forget everything else....just move the one lever,,,,,,then of course the chute turning crank. I can run right up to the end of driveway, stop the forward motion, let the auger clear up the snow that's in the auger housing, then back up.....just one lever does it all. Of course, if I were left handed I would want the auger crank on the left also. Worlds not made perfect, that's up to us.!!


Probably beats the velcro hold down straps. 

I'd add grease zerks on the end of the axles, with o-rings at the inside edge of the auger tubes. This way when you pump grease in, it would travel over the auger axle, and towards the outboard side of the auger tube.

I would also weld a small ring section to the bucket to protect the grease fitting.


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## RoyP (Oct 16, 2014)

db9938 said:


> Probably beats the velcro hold down straps.
> 
> I'd add grease zerks on the end of the axles, with o-rings at the inside edge of the auger tubes. This way when you pump grease in, it would travel over the auger axle, and towards the outboard side of the auger tube.
> 
> I would also weld a small ring section to the bucket to protect the grease fitting.


I like the grease fittings idea.....long time due.

Didn't like the Velcro .......too much time and whatever if I want to get it off FAST.....this pipe comes off with ease.


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## Pathfinder13 (Feb 28, 2014)

PracticalProgram said:


> Quick reply . . . Honda already has the electrically operated chute in the Canadian market for their equivalent of the 724/928/1332 models, so the electric motor end of this is already done. It adds tremendously to the cost, but I'm not sure why the Canadians are able to pay for this option, but Americans are not.
> 
> Anyway, I've re-thought my idea and have simplified it even more. Leave the auger and drive handles where they currently are, but move the joystick that operates the electrics for the chute to under the right handle so that the joystick can be operated by the user's middle finger. With this design, Honda has all the basic parts in its current inventory, sans whatever mounting might be required for the joystick.
> 
> ...


Welcome to the forum. Some nice ideas there but this one was not as good. Not so sure  about operating a control with the middle finger because when it get super cold up there they're not wearing gloves they're wearing SkiDoo mitts. Gloves are just not warm enough sometimes. Maybe a thumb control of some sort ?


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## RoyP (Oct 16, 2014)

Pathfinder13 said:


> Welcome to the forum. Some nice ideas there but this one was not as good. Not so sure  about operating a control with the middle finger because when it get super cold up there they're not wearing gloves they're wearing SkiDoo mitts. Gloves are just not warm enough sometimes. Maybe a thumb control of some sort ?


My idea of electric chute control would be a short maybe 3" joy stick. Put it on the right handle, fwd of the auger engage handle.....then we could just tap the stick with our mittens or gloves, even our nose if needed.


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## Pathfinder13 (Feb 28, 2014)

RoyP said:


> My idea of electric chute control would be a short maybe 3" joy stick. Put it on the right handle, fwd of the auger engage handle.....then we could just tap the stick with our mittens or gloves, even our nose if needed.


I must say... I like that idea


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## Shryp (Jan 1, 2011)

RoyP said:


> I'm surprised that no one has mentioned that it matters if your left or right handed. I'm going to get heat for this, but for me this works great. I've put a small piece of 1.5" PVC pipe to hold down the drive handle, with the drive handle held down, it also keeps the auger drive down.....all I have to move it the speed/direction lever.....works great for me.....forget everything else....just move the one lever,,,,,,then of course the chute turning crank. I can run right up to the end of driveway, stop the forward motion, let the auger clear up the snow that's in the auger housing, then back up.....just one lever does it all. Of course, if I were left handed I would want the auger crank on the left also. Worlds not made perfect, that's up to us.!!


If you wanted to keep your same idea, but be a little safer about it you could attach a wire to the PVC pipe and to your wrist. That way if you fell down or something the wire would pull the pipe off the handle like a safety wire.


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## RoyP (Oct 16, 2014)

Shryp said:


> If you wanted to keep your same idea, but be a little safer about it you could attach a wire to the PVC pipe and to your wrist. That way if you fell down or something the wire would pull the pipe off the handle like a safety wire.


I will have to see if the key pulls out, while it's in the on position. I would rather do that......


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## ClaudeK (Jan 4, 2015)

How about separate tracks disengagement levers = steering. Two tracks, two levers.
You squeeze the lever and you disengage track. Can't be that difficult to make.


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## tinter (Apr 20, 2014)

I run a deluxe 928. I love the machine, you get use to the layout but...... I was in Sears the other day waiting for my better half to do some shopping and decided to see what they had to offer for snowblowers. I saw there deluxe model (wheeled ) it had joystick control for the chute that was operated by your right thumb. It was about an inch high. Thought that was pretty cool. You don't have to remove your hands from the handles at all.


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## db9938 (Nov 17, 2013)

Now, I've already put on my asbestos undies for this idea, but here goes anyhow....


How about on the auger engage handle, turn it into a rotating switch that operates an electric chute motor. It wouldn't have to rotate more than 10-20 degrees from center, and should be spring loaded to recenter itself. This way you would never have to take you hands off the controls, and move things as you go. 

Downsides, yep it's going to be complex, and it will add to the cost.


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## Apple Guy (Sep 7, 2014)

Robert,


Please print out and give Honda this thread with all my comments (Apple Guy) Please have a discussion and ask Japan engineers... WHY the unrefined transmission engagement design. If they don't want to refine their badly designed transmission engagement, increase the diameter of the shaft that drives the gearbox so you can increase the drive pin diameter (that breaks) by 100% 

If they design a progressive relief valve that goes from 0 to 100% hydraulic pressure in two seconds so you don't get the harsh engagement, and eventually a broken gearbox pin. Have the transmission relief valve rebuildable from an external cover plate. Link below


http://www.snowblowerforum.com/foru...t-seem-interested-selling-their-products.html


.


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