# Failure in Right Gearcase



## TomB985 (Dec 21, 2013)

Hi everyone. 

Some of you remember the threads I had last year of the rehab my old HS624 went through. This year I invested in an ATV and plow for my quarter-mile driveway with the intent of keeping the blower as a backup. 

So today I was cleaning up after our first snowfall and decided to dust off the blower and give it a workout. Apparently it took umbrage to me cheating on it with other snow removal equipment, as it stopped in its tracks a few minutes after I started. 

Thought I threw a belt at first, but the transmission is definitely getting power from the engine and engaging like it should. The cross shaft is spinning forward and backward as I work the wheel speed control, but power isn't being transmitted through the right gearcase to the axle. On the upside the axle is completely freewheeling now, and it's never been this easy to PUSH. 

Here's the shaft I'm talking about:



And a video of the offending shaft:






Has anyone seen this kind of failure before? Can anyone give me any ideas on what may have sheared off before I tear this thing apart again?


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## 43128 (Feb 14, 2014)

maybe the pin shown in the video


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## TomB985 (Dec 21, 2013)

Great find, that's very helpful. Looks like that may be my culprit. On the bright side it looks like I may be able to pull the right side off without taking the engine and blower housing off. 

I'll dig into it sometime over the next couple of weeks. I wonder where I could source a hardened steel pin...


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## Big Ed (Feb 10, 2013)

It is nice that they make it so you have to buy a whole new shaft.

If that is the problem you going to try to drill it out and just add a new pin?


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## TomB985 (Dec 21, 2013)

Big Ed said:


> It is nice that they make it so you have to buy a whole new shaft.
> 
> If that is the problem you going to try to drill it out and just add a new pin?


I think so. I've had terrible luck drilling metal in the past, but replacing the whole shaft just seems silly if I can replace the pin. I suspect this is less common on wheeled machines like mine than tracked ones, as my wheels will spin far easier than tracks would. 

We'll see when I get it taken apart. Fortunately the blower is just a backup for me at the moment. At least until my quad breaks. Got my wife to give that a try this morning:


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## Big Ed (Feb 10, 2013)

You might luck it out and after a little careful filing around the outside edges maybe you can tap it out with a punch?


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## TomB985 (Dec 21, 2013)

Big Ed said:


> You might luck it out and after a little careful filing around the outside edges maybe you can tap it out with a punch?


That's what I would try first. Just doing a quick Google search it looks like you can buy hardened steel dowel pins in various sizes. Think that's going to be my plan. Maybe I'll find time this weekend to get this torn down so I can get any parts ordered. 

My driveway is a quarter mile long, and I'm a bit nervous about not having a backup snow removal method. Took this a few minutes ago, this is about half my driveway:


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## chaulky45 (Jan 23, 2014)

you will have to do the same thing I just did with my honda 724, new shaft, new final drive gear shaft, and 4-6 new bearings, and 3-4 new gears,not sure how many yours take for your model, you will have to get the parts at Honda and get someone to rebuild for you,while its a part just as well to all the bearings down on the track also


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## JnC (Feb 21, 2014)

Check out the following thread with some pictures that might help you, I am servicing my transmissions this season as well. 

http://www.snowblowerforum.com/foru...servicing-right-hydrostatic-transmission.html

Also, the shaft is $100.88 through boats.net

23370-767-010 HONDA SEE PART DETAILS - SUP; SHAFT, WHEEL (Honda Code 3828944).

Depending on how you take care of the issue, i.e. going through a machine shop to get the shaft drilled etc I think it would be better to just replace it with an OE part.


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## db9938 (Nov 17, 2013)

Might try removing it and using a push style punch. (no point)

I have found that a scrap door hinge pin to work quite well for this. It is a softer metal, which I have found to prevent further damage to my work piece.


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## TomB985 (Dec 21, 2013)

chaulky45 said:


> you will have to do the same thing I just did with my honda 724, new shaft, new final drive gear shaft, and 4-6 new bearings, and 3-4 new gears,not sure how many yours take for your model, you will have to get the parts at Honda and get someone to rebuild for you,while its a part just as well to all the bearings down on the track also


I don't know that I'll be willing to put that kind of money into it. None of this stuff seems terribly complex except for perhaps the hydrostatic drive, so I'll be doing the work myself. I bought this one used for $50 with a blown up engine, and it's had a HARD life over the last 20 years since it was new. I think I have around $250 into it so far including the new engine. 



JnC said:


> Check out the following thread with some pictures that might help you, I am servicing my transmissions this season as well.
> 
> http://www.snowblowerforum.com/foru...servicing-right-hydrostatic-transmission.html
> 
> ...


THANKS! Very informative thread, and I really like all the photos you posted. Did you have to remove the engine and blower housing to remove the transmissions? It's not a huge deal if it's necessary, but I was hoping it would be a quicker job than that. 



db9938 said:


> Might try removing it and using a push style punch. (no point)
> 
> I have found that a scrap door hinge pin to work quite well for this. It is a softer metal, which I have found to prevent further damage to my work piece.


I'll definitely try knocking the pin out. I have a punch set somewhere that should do the trick if it can be done. If so I'll use my digital caliper to measure for an appropriately sized steel dowel to drive back in. 

If push comes to shove I'll buy a new shaft. I'd rather not go that route though.


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## JnC (Feb 21, 2014)

Yes, I actually am overhauling/rebuilding a blower, that thread is on servicing the gear case and transmission.


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## TomB985 (Dec 21, 2013)

Looks like you guys were right on the mark. Took it apart this evening and found exactly what I was expecting. 





Sheared right off:



Both pieces still sitting in the gear:



After dinner I'll attack the shaft with my air hammer. Maybe I can push out the old one. If that works I'll probably try replacing it with a metal dowel. If not I'll probably just buy a new shaft.


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## 43128 (Feb 14, 2014)

thats not terrible, at least the gearbox is not destroyed. that grease is nasty though


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## db9938 (Nov 17, 2013)

May want to give it a quick wipe/scrape down, to make the job a little more pleasant. 

One suggestion, on the rebuild, give the entire interior of the case a light coat of lube. This will prevent oxidation of the interior aluminum case, and something that I am surprised manufacturers don't do.


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## TomB985 (Dec 21, 2013)

Thanks for the suggestion. Not sure oxidation is a real concern with these things; mine is over 20 years old and isn't showing any signs of it. I'll drop some gear lube in there to coat the case, can't hurt I guess. 

My air hammer did nothing to get the old pin out. Went onto Boats.net and was delighted to see that my previous cost estimate was wrong. Mine is a wheeled model, which means the shaft is only $54. Works for me, ordered that and a bearing that was going south, total is just under $75. 

This will put the grand total at around $325 including the purchase cost, new engine, and the other miscellaneous stuff I've had to do to it. I'm pretty happy with that.


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## db9938 (Nov 17, 2013)

That's not a bad price point for that model. Although, I am not sure that the current axle is totally done with. But hey, for the money that you will have into it, you really can't lose. 

And the dark spots on the interior of the case, are indications of oxidation. Usually this is water intrusion into those areas. 

I have read where someone was going to seal their's up, add a drain and fill port, and use gear lube... That might be a little much.


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## TomB985 (Dec 21, 2013)

db9938 said:


> That's not a bad price point for that model. Although, I am not sure that the current axle is totally done with. But hey, for the money that you will have into it, you really can't lose.


That was my thought. I seriously contemplated drilling the old pin out and replacing with a hardened metal dowel. But I figured that I'd have at least $30 into it by the time I bought some hardened bits and the replacement dowel, and I don't want to repeat this job. 



db9938 said:


> And the dark spots on the interior of the case, are indications of oxidation. Usually this is water intrusion into those areas.


Wow...amazing what you don't see when you don't look for it. Can't believe I missed that. All I remember was a shiny aluminum housing, didn't even see the oxidation. Good catch, thanks!


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## TomB985 (Dec 21, 2013)

Pretty impressed with Boats.net. Last year it took a couple of weeks for my parts to ship, so when I placed the order and it said an estimated ship date of 1/2/2015 I wasn't surprised. 

Turns out they shipped out Monday evening from Georgia and they are being delivered to me today in Connecticut. Pretty impressed for the holiday season. Merry Christmas to ME!


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## TomB985 (Dec 21, 2013)

Got it back together without incident, and it's working well. 

Couple of things I've learned from this. First the factory shop manual says to take the entire machine apart to remove the right gearcase. Fortunately that's not necessary, I got the idea from Don's Youtube video to remove the side of the frame with the blower stood up on its nose:



Used some 2X6 boards to support the top of the bucket and it was sufficiently stable to work on. 



The only leak came from the hydrostatic fluid reservoir, so I unbolted it and propped it up some so the fluid wasn't pooling against the lid:


Didn't see a reason to remove the old grease, so I just liberally added fresh grease all around the gears. I also reused the old gasket, it wasn't in bad shape and I didn't see a reason to replace it. 



There were only two parts of the job that were a bit tedious. The two return springs for the belt tensioners fasten to the outside of the gear case with a small bracket. It was very difficult to get them back on, so I removed the bracket, connected the springs, and screwed the bracket back into place. The second moment of frustration was getting the nuts in place on the opposite side of the gear case. Some of them aren't easy to get to with the case in place, but fortunately the case is indexed to hold them in place when you tighten them. 

All in all this wasn't a difficult job. Total cost was $74 in parts and a few hours of my time. Well worth doing it myself.


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## micah68kj (Oct 8, 2011)

This may be a dumb question but why did that pin fail? What caused it to shear? Is there stress on it.


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## TomB985 (Dec 21, 2013)

Certainly not a dumb question. 

Check out the video posted earlier in the thread. The pin engages the drive gear and transmits the torque from the gear to the axle. So the pin is under tension whenever the drive is engaged. 

Not sure what caused mine to fail, it wasn't under much strain when it let go. My blower is more than 20 years old though, so I assume it got brittle over the years. I applied a liberal amount of grease to the pin to avoid any potential wear, not sure if that will help anything or not.


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## Apple Guy (Sep 7, 2014)

micah68kj said:


> This may be a dumb question but why did that pin fail? What caused it to shear? Is there stress on it.


 The pin gets pounded every time you engage the the forward lever. With the touchy and abrupt engagement if you are above 25% speed, you finally shear the pin. That is why I wished Honda had a progressive valve that when you engage the forward lever the valve would go from 0 to 100% engagement in 2 seconds and stop the designed-in aggressive jerky engagement for both wheel and track versions. This would stop the pounding of that pin. .


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## TomB985 (Dec 21, 2013)

Apple Guy said:


> The pin gets pounded every time you engage the the forward lever. With the touchy and abrupt engagement if you are above 25% speed, you finally shear the pin. That is why I wished Honda had a progressive valve that when you engage the forward lever the valve would go from 0 to 100% engagement in 2 seconds and stop the designed-in aggressive jerky engagement for both wheel and track versions. This would stop the pounding of that pin. .


Your theory makes sense. Is this really that common of a failure? 

For what it's worth mine failed while going at a constant speed. I was tackling a snow bank going relatively slowly. Didn't hit anything either.


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## Apple Guy (Sep 7, 2014)

TomB985 said:


> Your theory makes sense. Is this really that common of a failure?
> 
> For what it's worth mine failed while going at a constant speed. I was tackling a snow bank going relatively slowly. Didn't hit anything either.


 But if you are like most of us, if you engage "like normal snowblower" at 50% plus speed you pound the heck out of that pin. Even if you start out at 25% speed and concentrate on engaging it very slowly you STILL pound that pin. We are talking lbs per square inch of torque is just way too much for this design. Or lets say "lack of design" again ...... Honda needs to use some engineering common scene.... I KNEW I HAD A PROBLEM the first driveway I did with my new Honda 928 with the primitive, abrupt engagement of the hydraulic transmission. The right gearcase is the weak link to this faulty design. After getting on the internet and google searching the transmission, the right gear case failure came to light. A $35 progressive valve that would need to be internally designed into the badly designed transmission that is now sold in all Honda's that would "buffer" the almost instant engagement of the transmission if it is set at 10% or higher on the speed lever. Any good engineer would see this as an issue, and would of designed the common sense fix into the design from day one. .


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## TomB985 (Dec 21, 2013)

Perhaps this is a good reason for people to alter their methods a bit. Never thought about how people engage the drive with the speed lever set, I've almost never done that. Makes sense that it would be awfully hard on the driveline. 

I always pull the lever back to the neutral position before engaging the drive, just seems easier on the machine that way. But as abused as this thing was, I'm sure the previous owner gave it no such consideration.


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## Paulsadog (Jan 29, 2015)

TomB985 said:


> Perhaps this is a good reason for people to alter their methods a bit. Never thought about how people engage the drive with the speed lever set, I've almost never done that. Makes sense that it would be awfully hard on the driveline.
> 
> I always pull the lever back to the neutral position before engaging the drive, just seems easier on the machine that way. But as abused as this thing was, I'm sure the previous owner gave it no such consideration.


I have used Toms method of behavior modification after I had to have my pin replaced. I have not had a problem with my HS828 for years. I'm sure I'm real hard on on it chewing away on frozen snow banks and all but finally did in my pin was going from full reverse to letting go of the clutch lever. Now I don't do any drastic speed changes and use the shift lever to slow down befor letting go of the shift lever completely. I also try to resist the frozen banks and move the banks before they freeze.


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## orangputeh (Nov 24, 2016)

Found this old interesting thread in the suggested reading. Have done this repair on about 10 tracked models thanks to JnC post on servicing the right side transmission.

it seems that the wheeled Honda is easier to do than the tracked in this repair. I also thought about drilling out old pin and pressing in a new one BUT if that doesnt work, you are back to square one and so much more labor.

whenever I get another Honda , one of the first things I do is install a zerk grease fitting and pump in new grease. whenever i open up these gear cases the old grease is off to side all caked upand dry or water has gotten in over time thru both axle sides and you have rust and corrosion. that is why the pin breaks.

I also tell Honda owners to stop the bad habit of power shifting. that is rapid shifting from forward to reverse without stopping inbetween shifts and using full power while doing it.

people think Hondas are bulletproof but they aint that bulletproof.


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