# Does EFI increase the power under load?



## JLawrence08648 (Jan 15, 2017)

When you are using a carbureted snowblower, you encounter deep snow, you use a lower gear and make sure you have high RPMs, fresh gas, and a clean carburetor to ensure maximum power. With the higher RPMs, you are using more fuel by draining the fuel bowl faster. 

With EFI, does it give you more power compared to a carbureted engine by readjusting the timing just a hair or does it more efficiently monitor the fuel where a snowblower with a carburetor would bog down in certain conditions while the EFI snowblower would not bog down in the same equivalent conditions? If so, noticeable? 

Will we see small turbos on snowblowers? Not with the push with electric!?


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## dagjohnsen56 (Dec 7, 2021)

JLawrence08648 said:


> When you are using a carbureted snowblower, you encounter deep snow, you use a lower gear and make sure you have high RPMs, fresh gas, and a clean carburetor to ensure maximum power. With the higher RPMs, you are using more fuel by draining the fuel bowl faster.
> 
> With EFI, does it give you more power compared to a carbureted engine by readjusting the timing just a hair or does it more efficiently monitor the fuel where a snowblower with a carburetor would bog down in certain conditions while the EFI snowblower would not bog down in the same equivalent conditions? If so, noticeable?
> 
> Will we see small turbos on snowblowers? Not with the push with electric!?


It responds faster when hitting resistance. Click at the link and scroll down a little, you can see the difference in power and torque to the carburated engine same size.https://www.ariens.com/en-us/info/efi-ez-launch


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## ChrisJ (Nov 27, 2014)

I sense a lot of advertising B.S. in that page.
My machine bogged down due to not having enough power, not due to the governor or anything else.

The fact that carbureted engines with mechanical governors can keep a generator engine within +-100 rpm of it's setting from no load to full load I just don't see it even being a "thing" on a snowblower.


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## dagjohnsen56 (Dec 7, 2021)

ChrisJ said:


> I sense a lot of advertising B.S. in that page.
> My machine bogged down due to not having enough power, not due to the governor or anything else.
> 
> The fact that carbureted engines with mechanical governors can keep a generator engine within +-100 rpm of it's setting from no load to full load I just don't see it even being a "thing" on a snowblower.


You will find some BS, but I hear from a lot of users with experience that the EFI engines keeps up the revs when hitting heavy loads better than the machines with carbs. Might not be that important but I have received specificly that feedback more than once. So I know for a fact that is not BS, also from my own experience.


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## foggysail (Feb 21, 2015)

There are other things limiting an engine's hp/torque besides immediate fuel availability.


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## aa335 (Jan 21, 2020)

Ariens makes good products. However, they typically over-market their technology and features. They used to be very cheesy in their marketing. It has gotten better although the Arien's attempt at EFI advantages for power and torque aren't that convincing. I'm not saying isn't better than carbureted engine, but nothing on their website is convincing me it is better. Zilch.

From the graph on their website, the hp and torque curves are almost identical, they are almost on top of one another. There may not be significant differences when it comes to actual performance. If the EFI engine can maintain 3500 rpm under heavy load, then there is usable power differences. Under 3400 RPM, I don't see how an EFI is better.

The throttle response to load may be quicker on an EFI engine, but not by much. The governor is electrically operated. It is implied that the operation of the governor is the same as a carburator engine. Unless Ariens reveal how electric governor actually works and response curves, I am not convinced that different is better. 

There may be placebo effect from users of new technology and running a shiny new Ariens. If it is not scientifically measured and documented, it didn't happen. Also, showing graphs without citing test methods aren't scientific, it is more anecdotal seat of the pants warm fuzzy feeling.


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## ChrisJ (Nov 27, 2014)

dagjohnsen56 said:


> You will find some BS, but I hear from a lot of users with experience that the EFI engines keeps up the revs when hitting heavy loads better than the machines with carbs. Might not be that important but I have received specificly that feedback more than once. So I know for a fact that is not BS, also from my own experience.


So a carb'd 420 on the same size machine vs an EFI 420 and the EFI runs stronger and keeps the RPM up better?

My dad has told me several times his Hydropro 32 never bogs down and that's carb'ed with a B&S 420. He's said there's been times where the snow starts to pile in front of it and it starts to plow because the machine literally can't throw it fast enough but the engine has never showed any signs of not being able to keep up.


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## ChrisJ (Nov 27, 2014)

aa335 said:


> Ariens makes good products. However, they typically over-market their technology and features. They used to be very cheesy in their marketing. It has gotten better although the Arien's attempt at EFI advantages for power and torque aren't that convincing. I'm not saying isn't better than carbureted engine, but nothing on their website is convincing me it is better. Zilch.
> 
> From the graph on their website, the hp and torque curves are almost identical, they are almost on top of one another. There may not be significant differences when it comes to actual performance. If the EFI engine can maintain 3500 rpm under heavy load, then there is usable power differences. Under 3400 RPM, I don't see how an EFI is better.
> 
> ...



I know better generators use electric governors, but the fact that many use a mechanical one and it's "good enough" I'm pretty convinced a snowblower would literally never benefit from an electric one. It doesn't mean the electric governor isn't better, but I don't see it being better in this application. A generator is far more demanding.


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## foggysail (Feb 21, 2015)

ChrisJ said:


> So a carb'd 420 on the same size machine vs an EFI 420 and the EFI runs stronger and keeps the RPM up better?
> 
> My dad has told me several times his Hydropro 32 never bogs down and that's carb'ed with a B&S 420. He's said there's been times where the snow starts to pile in front of it and it starts to plow because the machine literally can't throw it fast enough but the engine has never showed any signs of not being able to keep up.



My 28 Pro has that 420 B&S engine and it certainly does bog down under heavy load. In this type of situation, I believe it is a HP limitation and not a fuel availability issue.


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## aa335 (Jan 21, 2020)

ChrisJ said:


> I know better generators use electric governors, but the fact that many use a mechanical one and it's "good enough" I'm pretty convinced a snowblower would literally never benefit from an electric one. It doesn't mean the electric governor isn't better, but I don't see it being better in this application. A generator is far more demanding.


For snowplowing application where the load is generally constant, I don't see how quicker throttle response has any benefits. Maybe there is fuel efficiency advantage and preventing over-revving.


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## 1132le (Feb 23, 2017)

aa335 said:


> Ariens makes good products. However, they typically over-market their technology and features. They used to be very cheesy in their marketing. It has gotten better although the Arien's attempt at EFI advantages for power and torque aren't that convincing. I'm not saying isn't better than carbureted engine, but nothing on their website is convincing me it is better. Zilch.
> 
> From the graph on their website, the hp and torque curves are almost identical, they are almost on top of one another. There may not be significant differences when it comes to actual performance. If the EFI engine can maintain 3500 rpm under heavy load, then there is usable power differences. Under 3400 RPM, I don't see how an EFI is better.
> 
> ...


well sir you are wrong
efi might still have issues
but i used one and its so responsive it feels like it wasnt the 306cc but more like my 414cc 28 inch
it sure felt like it carried the torque a few hundred more rpm unlike the carb thats the efi doing its thing
my 28 414 with impeller kit and the new jet @3950 blows snow over my house into the backyard now
the efi flat out is better they do have issues prolly mostly bad owners but still new


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## leonz (Dec 12, 2014)

The electric governor is used a lot on diesel powered cranes and 
drag lines and other heavy machinery.

The pilot operated controls for the hydraulic circuits are what controls 
everything and if I remember my operating sequences right the oil flow 
volume on the various functions controls the diesel engine and lets it 
run wide open to full engine rpm for the full hydraulic systems valves 
for full oil flow no matter the circuit.
The added benefit is the diesel engine will return to idle every time a function is
stopped.


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## dagjohnsen56 (Dec 7, 2021)

ChrisJ said:


> So a carb'd 420 on the same size machine vs an EFI 420 and the EFI runs stronger and keeps the RPM up better?
> 
> My dad has told me several times his Hydropro 32 never bogs down and that's carb'ed with a B&S 420. He's said there's been times where the snow starts to pile in front of it and it starts to plow because the machine literally can't throw it fast enough but the engine has never showed any signs of not being able to keep up.


I have two strong machines, one carbed and one EFI. And I just sold a 9.5 hp carbed Yamaha. The EFI instantly keeps the revs up while carbed goes down a little in revs and then adjusts. I am not sure if this is important at all. But there is a difference. All engines can bog down if there is enough restistance. I believe under constant super heavy load, you might have a small advantage with EFI. But it seems like no one wants to hear about it here


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## aa335 (Jan 21, 2020)

1132le said:


> well sir you are wrong
> efi might still have issues
> but i used one and its so responsive it feels like it wasnt the 306cc but more like my 414cc 28 inch
> it sure felt like it carried the torque a few hundred more rpm unlike the carb thats the efi doing its thing
> ...


It is still a "feels like" and "felt like". The impeller mods and new jet doesn't not help the comparison as far as apples to apples.

Maybe the quicker throttle response makes it feels like it is stronger to changing loads. However, does that mean that it can move more metric tons of snow per hour at constant load?


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## leonz (Dec 12, 2014)

You won't see turbos on small snow blowers unless they are 
three cylinder air cooled diesels with indirect or direct injection
as the turbocharger is mounted on the exhaust manifold as a rule
to allow easier placement of the intake and pressure piping for the 
air inlet.


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## aa335 (Jan 21, 2020)

dagjohnsen56 said:


> I have two strong machines, one carbed and one EFI. And I just sold a 9.5 hp carbed Yamaha. The EFI instantly keeps the revs up while carbed goes down a little in revs and then adjusts. I am not sure if this is important at all. But there is a difference. All engines can bog down if there is enough restistance. I believe under constant super heavy load, you might have a small advantage with EFI. But it seems like no one wants to hear about it here


I do want to hear about it here.


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## dagjohnsen56 (Dec 7, 2021)

aa335 said:


> I do want to hear about it here.


Good, me too wants to get to know stuff that I find interesting. Might not be that important like a lot of people say but maybe could make a difference keeping the revs up not loosing momentum.

Dag


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## Ziggy65 (Jan 18, 2020)

aa335 said:


> Maybe the quicker throttle response makes it feels like it is stronger to changing loads. However, does that mean that it can move more metric tons of snow per hour at constant load?


Not according to Ariens, the Platinum 24 SHO is reported to move 73 tons of snow per hour for both the carb and EFI model.

Platinum Series Snow Blower - Ariens


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## 1132le (Feb 23, 2017)

aa335 said:


> It is still a "feels like" and "felt like". The impeller mods and new jet doesn't not help the comparison as far as apples to apples.
> 
> Maybe the quicker throttle response makes it feels like it is stronger to changing loads. However, does that mean that it can move more metric tons of snow per hour at constant load?


you dont think i use my machine prior to those mods if the efi feels close to my mods that means its even better not worse
the efi feels like it has a 414 cc its flat out better
it has more torque at 3600 and it stays at 3600 because the efi keeps the air fuel perfect and the gov is lighting quick
the carb cant do that
that said i would want to have to take it to a dealer they are clueless 
ill take the carb
efi is still WAY better apples to apples


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## Town (Jan 31, 2015)

dagjohnsen56 said:


> It responds faster when hitting resistance. Click at the link and scroll down a little, you can see the difference in power and torque to the carburated engine same size.https://www.ariens.com/en-us/info/efi-ez-launch


It should be noted that the Pro 420 EFI runs at 3,650 rpm while the Pro 420 carburetted version is set for 3,600 rpm. The identified chart seems to show an improvement due to the higher governed rpm. My Pro 420 carburetted engine runs at 3,600 rpm or within 20 rpm of that number under light snow conditions. So not a level playing field for comparison. 

The second aspect is the tons per hour. Only the EFI 36 inch Pro can achieve 102 tons per hour. All other models are no higher than 90 tons per hour depending on bucket width. The EFI versions and the carburetted versions of the Pro 420 engine have the same 90 tons per hour for same bucket size.


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## leonz (Dec 12, 2014)

What it comes down to is the cubic volume of the cylindrical fan housing and the square area of the fan blades to lift the material up and out not the size of the auger housing.

Like anything else they probably dumped snow in pile and then blew it on a tarp for one minute and then weighed that amount of snow assuming it was done in the lowest gear/speed.

If they used dense compacted snowpack they probably used the 52 pounds per cubic foot figure to do it.

Consumer Reports-(I KNOW, I KNOW) using 20 cubic foot of fully soaked dense sawdust shavings in two wheel barrow lengths to test snow blowers is still valid as it offers just as much resistance.


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## 1132le (Feb 23, 2017)

Ziggy65 said:


> Not according to Ariens, the Platinum 24 SHO is reported to move 73 tons of snow per hour for both the carb and EFI model.
> 
> Platinum Series Snow Blower - Ariens


now thats not true if the motor comes set at 3400 no chance
the are both rated that
the 30 efi i used would run circles around the carbed 30
there is no slowing with efi
bet you they change that rating
i bet my 28 414 kitted bigger jet 3950 would out clear a 32 pro i know it would
fastr no slow down clears more simple math


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## Rune Karlsen (Mar 4, 2018)

I like my EFI so far. It didn't bodge down when i testet it on the downfall from the roof. Around 6 inches of snow mixed with ice. More than enough power for me. 
I'm more skeptical towards the control system. Anybody have information on how this injection system it built? Is it a small ECU that gets information from different sensors on the engine etc? Will it last 10 years?


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## Shovel (Mar 26, 2019)

JLawrence08648 said:


> When you are using a carbureted snowblower, you encounter deep snow, you use a lower gear and make sure you have high RPMs, fresh gas, and a clean carburetor to ensure maximum power. With the higher RPMs, you are using more fuel by draining the fuel bowl faster.
> 
> With EFI, does it give you more power compared to a carbureted engine by readjusting the timing just a hair or does it more efficiently monitor the fuel where a snowblower with a carburetor would bog down in certain conditions while the EFI snowblower would not bog down in the same equivalent conditions? If so, noticeable?
> 
> Will we see small turbos on snowblowers? Not with the push with electric!?


The EFI on these is very basic..there is no 02 sensor or knock sensor.
The advantage is less governor droop with the EFI unit...However when both engines are pulled(loaded) down to where the carb is opened up all the way then it comes down to air fuel ratio for each..the EFI is going to rum a little short of ideal AF for max power..the carbed unit while it could be jetted for ideal AF ratio with full pull..chances are it's perfect either. 

So in a nutshell...during lighter pulls..the EFI wins as the governor is more sensitive..during full pulls one the throttle butterfly is opened all the way..its even.
The EFI will open the butterfly fully sooner during lighter loads..keeping RPM up better under less than full loads...The gains aren't going to be dramatic here but noticeable...with a small engine in deep snow in which the load will be pulling down rpm quite a bit anyway..there is no gain...with a larger engine where there is power to spare the rpms will stay up better...since impeller tip speed follows the same rules as acceleration and or ballistics...a couple hundred rpms more at the engine can definitely be seen in your throwing distance. 

Sent from my SM-A115U1 using Tapatalk


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## Ziggy65 (Jan 18, 2020)

1132le said:


> now thats not true if the motor comes set at 3400 no chance
> the are both rated that
> the 30 efi i used would run circles around the carbed 30
> there is no slowing with efi
> ...




I have no experience with using an EFI machine, and am not saying that EFI does not improve engine responsiveness. I do believe that an EFI system will perform a little better, otherwise Ariens would not be putting them on their top tier machines.

The question was posed does EFI move more snow than a carbed machine and according to the current Ariens specs, no it doesn't. At least not enough to change from 73 tons to 74 tons per hour, if it did, I am sure Ariens would be broadcasting that improvement.


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## groomerz (Feb 7, 2015)

A mechanical governor system has “droop”. While efi has no droop


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## aa335 (Jan 21, 2020)

1132le said:


> you dont think i use my machine prior to those mods if the efi feels close to my mods that means its even better not worse
> the efi feels like it has a 414 cc its flat out better
> it has more torque at 3600 and it stays at 3600 because the efi keeps the air fuel perfect and the gov is lighting quick
> the carb cant do that
> ...


I'm not saying you didn't use the machine before and after the modifications. You have experienced that the mods made the snowblower perform better. And rightly so, a robust engine with good chassis has potential for modifications.

We are not talking about the modifications here. The thread was about EFI versus carburator engine of same displacement.


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## 1132le (Feb 23, 2017)

aa335 said:


> I'm not saying you didn't use the machine before and after the modifications. You have experienced that the mods made the snowblower perform better. And rightly so, a robust engine with good chassis has potential for modifications.
> 
> We are not talking about the modifications here. The thread was about EFI versus carburator engine of same displacement.


iam telling you the efi felt like my 414cc withe mods except the imp kit
that means it rocks
if they put a rag over the engine in question and i used it
i would guess it 414cc not a 306cc
that should tell you all you need to know
its not even close efi feels like its 12 hp not 9


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## JJG723 (Mar 7, 2015)

I have eight seasons experience running the 420cc carbed Briggs motors on 32-in Ariens Pro machines. Engine bog is not an issue. There is an audible drop in RPM when hitting the heavy stuff. Not enough where you need to slow down the machines ground speed. I do have an hour meter/tach on one of those machines and observed 3,600 RPM no load and would I drop to 3,400 on heavy load.

Now I have one snowfall experience with the LCT 420cc EFI on the Kraken. This machine also has an hour/tach meter. Considering all the electronics involved with the EFI and how impressed I've always been with the Briggs motors I was expecting great results from this engine. Real world results absolutely did not disappoint. No load RPM is 3630. When first hitting the heavy stuff I would see RPM drop to 3500 then immediately shoot up and maintain 3,600. As I mentioned in one of my threads about this machine, the engine feels as though it has unlimited power. 

As far as Ariens marketing, they've always taken a one-size-fits-all approach. They never fine-tune for each specific model. There's no doubt in my mind with an apples to apples comparison an EFI machine will move more snow quicker than a carbed one. It's certainly not going to be an enormous difference, but it will.


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## dagjohnsen56 (Dec 7, 2021)

Shovel said:


> The EFI on these is very basic..there is no 02 sensor or knock sensor.
> The advantage is less governor droop with the EFI unit...However when both engines are pulled(loaded) down to where the carb is opened up all the way then it comes down to air fuel ratio for each..the EFI is going to rum a little short of ideal AF for max power..the carbed unit while it could be jetted for ideal AF ratio with full pull..chances are it's perfect either.
> 
> So in a nutshell...during lighter pulls..the EFI wins as the governor is more sensitive..during full pulls one the throttle butterfly is opened all the way..its even.
> ...


Thanks for a very good explenation. I am impressed!


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## 1132le (Feb 23, 2017)

Ziggy65 said:


> I have no experience with using an EFI machine, and am not saying that EFI does not improve engine responsiveness. I do believe that an EFI system will perform a little better, otherwise Ariens would not be putting them on their top tier machines.
> 
> The question was posed does EFI move more snow than a carbed machine and according to the current Ariens specs, no it doesn't. At least not enough to change from 73 tons to 74 tons per hour, if it did, I am sure Ariens would be broadcasting that improvement.


it does move more snow i used it
further more in wet snow thats what i get on the coast of north shore mass
both machines no impeller kit the carbed version will struggle not to clog requiring slowing down the efi went through it
i used it 1st hand this isnt a bs press release from ariens or toro
ive used just about every ariens blower untill the newer ones having lived in the same house 40 yrs
its not close
did you listen to ariens when they sold the ohv 358cc as 13 hp its 10 and change


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## dagjohnsen56 (Dec 7, 2021)

JJG723 said:


> I have eight seasons experience running the 420cc carbed Briggs motors on 32-in Ariens Pro machines. Engine bog is not an issue. There is an audible drop in RPM when hitting the heavy stuff. Not enough where you need to slow down the machines ground speed. I do have an hour meter/tach on one of those machines and observed 3,600 RPM no load and would I drop to 3,400 on heavy load.
> 
> Now I have one snowfall experience with the LCT 420cc EFI on the Kraken. This machine also has an hour/tach meter. Considering all the electronics involved with the EFI and how impressed I've always been with the Briggs motors I was expecting great results from this engine. Real world results absolutely did not disappoint. No load RPM is 3630. When first hitting the heavy stuff I would see RPM drop to 3500 then immediately shoot up and maintain 3,600. As I mentioned in one of my threads about this machine, the engine feels as though it has unlimited power.
> 
> As far as Ariens marketing, they've always taken a one-size-fits-all approach. They never fine-tune for each specific model. There's no doubt in my mind with an apples to apples comparison an EFI machine will move more snow quicker than a carbed one. It's certainly not going to be an enormous difference, but it will.


Yes I agree that difference would be very small, if measurable. They behave a little different. But basicly the same.


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## dagjohnsen56 (Dec 7, 2021)

1132le said:


> it does move more snow i used it
> further more in wet snow thats what i get on the coast of north shore mass
> both machines no impeller kit the carbed version will struggle not to clog requiring slowing down the efi went through it
> i used it 1st hand this isnt a bs press release from ariens or toro
> ...


haha, 13 hp yes that is a little funny. Ariens are Ariens and they have a big marketing mouthBut I must say they are doing well and I am impressed how they are developing their products and reputation.


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## dagjohnsen56 (Dec 7, 2021)

1132le said:


> it does move more snow i used it
> further more in wet snow thats what i get on the coast of north shore mass
> both machines no impeller kit the carbed version will struggle not to clog requiring slowing down the efi went through it
> i used it 1st hand this isnt a bs press release from ariens or toro
> ...


This is really interesting, you actually experienced a noticable difference. Thanks for sharing!


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## 1132le (Feb 23, 2017)

dagjohnsen56 said:


> Thanks for a very good explenation. I am impressed!





Shovel said:


> The EFI on these is very basic..there is no 02 sensor or knock sensor.
> The advantage is less governor droop with the EFI unit...However when both engines are pulled(loaded) down to where the carb is opened up all the way then it comes down to air fuel ratio for each..the EFI is going to rum a little short of ideal AF for max power..the carbed unit while it could be jetted for ideal AF ratio with full pull..chances are it's perfect either.
> 
> So in a nutshell...during lighter pulls..the EFI wins as the governor is more sensitive..during full pulls one the throttle butterfly is opened all the way..its even.
> ...


i dont understand why people keep saying thins like this
it works better in lighter pulls thats a 100% wrong
wet heavy snow the carb bogs you eed to slow down maybe clog
efi sings and walks right through it
ive done it clearly faster blows snow much better night and day
ill keep the carb
ive got no ax to grind


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## aa335 (Jan 21, 2020)

1132le said:


> i dont understand why people keep saying thins like this
> it works better in lighter pulls thats a 100% wrong
> wet heavy snow the carb bogs you eed to slow down maybe clog
> efi sings and walks right through it
> ...


You got experience using the EFI engine and it has met or exceed expectations.

But looking at the HP and Torque curves on Ariens website:

www.ariens.com/en-us/info/efi-ez-launch

Sorry, Ariens webpage doesn't allow me to copy and paste the graph so you will have to view it at their site.

Anyways, from the HP and Torque curves, it looks like the carbureted engine performance just dropped off a cliff past 3400 RPM, whereas the EFI engine curves stayed relatively flat in the region of 3400-3600 RPM. What's going on here? What's the magic sauce? Tell me more what is EFI doing here that the carb engine doesn't.


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## 1132le (Feb 23, 2017)

the efi adjust the air fuel the carb cant and falls on its face
combine that with efi gov acting so quick and keeping revs up
makes it blow way better have more power up in the 3600 area tor x rpm is hp holds it longer more power there be my guess all i know it was shocking to me
helps bigtime in wetish heavy snow under full load
carb would clog the blower or slow way down
ill still keep the carb jet it up and use 3950 rpm with impeller kit== beast
i was shocked how the lil 306 on a 30 inch bucket was so much better


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## Mortten (Jan 31, 2020)




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## Shovel (Mar 26, 2019)

1132le said:


> i dont understand why people keep saying thins like this
> it works better in lighter pulls thats a 100% wrong
> wet heavy snow the carb bogs you eed to slow down maybe clog
> efi sings and walks right through it
> ...


The throttle only opens so far anyway
During a heavy pull both will have the throttle fully open...during lighter pulls the carb model will not open the throttle as much...so during a heavy pull it won't make a difference given the engines are otherwise indentical..during less than full demand power the electronic governor will open the throttle fully sooner...so perform better..this is assuming identical engines ofcourse.


Sent from my SM-A115U1 using Tapatalk


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## jherbicide (Oct 14, 2021)

Shovel said:


> The EFI on these is very basic..there is no 02 sensor or knock sensor.
> The advantage is less governor droop with the EFI unit...However when both engines are pulled(loaded) down to where the carb is opened up all the way then it comes down to air fuel ratio for each..the EFI is going to rum a little short of ideal AF for max power..the carbed unit while it could be jetted for ideal AF ratio with full pull..chances are it's perfect either.
> 
> So in a nutshell...during lighter pulls..the EFI wins as the governor is more sensitive..during full pulls one the throttle butterfly is opened all the way..its even.
> ...


Plus this is all assuming the carb and EFI’s are rated at the same CFM (flow rate), amongst other things. For all we know (and what I suspect) is the EFI has a bigger bore or otherwise flows better. It may also have other changes like a different camshaft, etc.

I suspect this due to their power curve; to me it looks like the carb version can’t support WOT full load above 3400ish rpm.

IF that chart is true and accurate, the EFI version will outperform the carb from the simple fact it can maintain 3600(ish)rpm at much higher loads than the carb version. The carb version will be at a 200rpm disadvantage at high loads. The green circled part of the curves:


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## tabora (Mar 1, 2017)

I find it interesting that Honda has not applied the EFI version of their GX390 to a snowblower yet. It's a closed-loop system with an O2 sensor, and is very well regarded in the EU7000iS inverter generator application.
*EU7000iS Electronic Fuel Injection offers better fuel efficiency and lower maintenance *​_*Smart electronic fuel injection technology increases fuel efficiency, eliminates the engine choke, and reduces fuel associated carburetor problems. And of course, the reliable Honda GX390 engine is designed for long life and superior performance.*_​
Perhaps it's because the snow blower application is typically only a max-RPM situation?

There's an aftermarket GX390 EFI kit; sure has a lot of fiddly-bits...


https://www.ecotrons.com/files/Ecotrons%20EFI%20installation%20manual%20for%20Honda%20GX390.pdf


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## 1132le (Feb 23, 2017)

Shovel said:


> The throttle only opens so far anyway
> During a heavy pull both will have the throttle fully open...during lighter pulls the carb model will not open the throttle as much...so during a heavy pull it won't make a difference given the engines are otherwise indentical..during less than full demand power the electronic governor will open the throttle fully sooner...so perform better..this is assuming identical engines ofcourse.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-A115U1 using Tapatalk


if efi is making 15 lb ft @ 3600
and the carb is making 13 lb feet and bogging to 3300 the throttle plate means nothing
did you miss the fact ive used it and was shocked it was a 306cc and iam running a modded 414 cc 
1st hand use


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## jherbicide (Oct 14, 2021)

tabora said:


> I find it interesting that Honda has not applied the EFI version of their GX390 to a snowblower yet. It's a closed-loop system with an O2 sensor, and is very well regarded in the EU7000iS inverter generator application.
> *EU7000iS Electronic Fuel Injection offers better fuel efficiency and lower maintenance *​_*Smart electronic fuel injection technology increases fuel efficiency, eliminates the engine choke, and reduces fuel associated carburetor problems. And of course, the reliable Honda GX390 engine is designed for long life and superior performance.*_​
> Perhaps it's because the snow blower application is typically only a max-RPM situation?
> 
> ...


To the best of my knowledge a generator needs to run at a much more precise RPM than a snowblower. But maybe not with an inverter?

It might just be Honda is doing a phased rollout of EFI, or maybe they have application related technical reasons?

One possible issue is O2 sensors need to heat up to properly function. Maybe due to the weather (cold) and operating conditions (short run times) their system may not lend itself well to snowblowers.

I’d also wager Honda sells a much higher volume of generators vs snowblowers, making them more of a priority.


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## Shovel (Mar 26, 2019)

jherbicide said:


> Plus this is all assuming the carb and EFI’s are rated at the same CFM (flow rate), amongst other things. For all we know (and what I suspect) is the EFI has a bigger bore or otherwise flows better. It may also have other changes like a different camshaft, etc.
> 
> I suspect this due to their power curve; to me it looks like the carb version can’t support WOT full load above 3400ish rpm.
> 
> ...


What you are seeing at the tail end of the graph is the throttle position corresponding with load...with EFI there is very little governor droop..with the carb..the governor isn't fully opening until the engine is pulled down...If you were to manually hold the butterfly wide open on the carb model then the tail end of the graph wouldn't have that dip...or if the governor was set to 3900 to 4000 for the carb model..it would then be close to fully open while pulled down the 3600.
On a mini bike for instance you can set the max engine speed for 3900 rpm as it won't be running that fast as the engine will be pulling a load and have your actual working load closer to the 3600 rpms.
The torque curve is determined by volumetric efficiency at specified RPMs..camshafts profile and head design are responsible for most of the airflow..followed by intake and exhaust design...intakes and exhausts are often tuned for wavelengths divided by denominators of two to smoothen torque curves..its a trade off of maximum torque at another RPM.


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## Shovel (Mar 26, 2019)

1132le said:


> if efi is making 15 lb ft @ 3600
> and the carb is making 13 lb feet and bogging to 3300 the throttle plate means nothing
> did you miss the fact ive used it and was shocked it was a 306cc and iam running a modded 414 cc
> 1st hand use


Sure it does as its the throttle that determines air flow..the governor on a carb model is less sensitive and does not open fully until a 10 to 15 percent rpm drop..if we lighten the springs to increase sensitively then engine surging or hunting becomes an issue...its the problem with setting generators for instance..much less percentageof droop...you want it as sensitive as you can get it without hunting in low or no load conditions...You want it sensitive at to maintain as close to the 60 hz as possible..its why they are often set at 3750 no load rpm..then when load is applied it pulls you to 3600..if your load is constant then you can set loaded rpms to 3600 then double check no load rpms is within range .. but with an electronic governor it's not necessary to overspeed the engine to start off with.


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## 1132le (Feb 23, 2017)

Shovel said:


> What you are seeing at the tail end of the graph is the throttle position corresponding with load...with EFI there is very little governor droop..with the carb..the governor isn't fully opening until the engine is pulled down...If you were to manually hold the butterfly wide open on the carb model then the tail end of the graph wouldn't have that dip...or if the governor was set to 3900 to 4000 for the carb model..it would then be close to fully open while pulled down the 3600.
> On a mini bike for instance you can set the max engine speed for 3900 rpm as it won't be running that fast as the engine will be pulling a load and have your actual working load closer to the 3600 rpms.
> The torque curve is determined by volumetric efficiency at specified RPMs..camshafts profile and head design are responsible for most of the airflow..followed by intake and exhaust design...intakes and exhausts are often tuned for wavelengths divided by denominators of two to smoothen torque curves..its a trade off of maximum torque at another RPM.
> 
> ...


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## 1132le (Feb 23, 2017)

Shovel said:


> Sure it does as its the throttle that determines air flow..the governor on a carb model is less sensitive and does not open fully until a 10 to 15 percent rpm drop..if we lighten the springs to increase sensitively then engine surging or hunting becomes an issue...its the problem with setting generators for instance..you want it as sensitive as you can get it without hunting in low or no load conditions...You want it sensitive at to maintain as close to the 60 hz as possible..its why they are often set at 3750 no load rpm..then when load is applied it pulls you to 3600..if your load is constant then you can see loaded rpms to 3600 then double check no load rpms is within range .. but with an electronic governor it's not necessary to overspeed the engine to start off with.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-A115U1 using Tapatalk


generators now continue
repeating things other know wont make your right carry on


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## jherbicide (Oct 14, 2021)

Shovel said:


> What you are seeing at the tail end of the graph is the throttle position corresponding with load...with EFI there is very little governor droop..with the carb..the governor isn't fully opening until the engine is pulled down...If you were to manually hold the butterfly wide open on the carb model then the tail end of the graph wouldn't have that dip...or if the governor was set to 3900 to 4000 for the carb model..it would then be close to fully open while pulled down the 3600.
> On a mini bike for instance you can set the max engine speed for 3900 rpm as it won't be running that fast as the engine will be pulling a load and have your actual working load closer to the 3600 rpms.
> The torque curve is determined by volumetric efficiency at specified RPMs..camshafts profile and head design are responsible for most of the airflow..followed by intake and exhaust design...intakes and exhausts are often tuned for wavelengths divided by denominators of two to smoothen torque curves..its a trade off of maximum torque at another RPM.
> 
> ...


It took me awhile to digest that, but I do think you’re right now. It would be interesting to see a “pure” chart, as in setting the carb governor to allow full power runs at 3600. I wrongly assumed that chart represented a typical dyno pull; ie ungoverned.

To save some of my face, I guess I can’t trust those curves due to the carb engine being handicapped accordingly. 😁

I’ve never run an EFI machine but I fully believe the reports that they are “more responsive” and act like a bigger motor; because they do hold their rpm better; like you say no droop. From a pure performance standpoint* one could just up the carbs governor say 200rpm and I’d bet they’d be comparable

Simply said the EFI engine runs 3600rpm under load while a properly set carbed motor runs under load at 3400. That’s the advantage right there.

*pure performance = power only; disregarding the droop and/or reliability issues.


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## Shovel (Mar 26, 2019)

1132le said:


> generators now continue
> repeating things other know wont make your right carry on


Generators have been around for decades.
Some people have dealt with them others haven't.
With resistance only loads rpms are not critical..but alot of equipment is designed to run at 60 HZ..thus why they were set high to begin with so the load will pull it back down to 3600 rpm.

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## dagjohnsen56 (Dec 7, 2021)

tabora said:


> I find it interesting that Honda has not applied the EFI version of their GX390 to a snowblower yet. It's a closed-loop system with an O2 sensor, and is very well regarded in the EU7000iS inverter generator application.
> *EU7000iS Electronic Fuel Injection offers better fuel efficiency and lower maintenance *​_*Smart electronic fuel injection technology increases fuel efficiency, eliminates the engine choke, and reduces fuel associated carburetor problems. And of course, the reliable Honda GX390 engine is designed for long life and superior performance.*_​
> Perhaps it's because the snow blower application is typically only a max-RPM situation?
> 
> ...


This Honda does have fuel injection Honda HSL2511E snowplow 16,5kW | Manel Service


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## 1132le (Feb 23, 2017)

jherbicide said:


> It took me awhile to digest that, but I do think you’re right now. It would be interesting to see a “pure” chart, as in setting the carb governor to allow full power runs at 3600. I wrongly assumed that chart represented a typical dyno pull; ie ungoverned.
> 
> To save some of my face, I guess I can’t trust those curves due to the carb engine being handicapped accordingly. 😁
> 
> ...


they woudnt be the fixed jet falls on its face
thats why people are rejetting already lean epa carbs
most blowers come set under spec and arleady out of jet @ 3500 never mind 3700 or 3900
efi makes it spot on so keeps the torque
well the fixed jet bogs and was never right to begin with
anybody who has ever raced car and dialed in jetting would understand how much better the mor runs when its done right you pick up et and mph
and how shatty it runs when its wrong
efi does that on steroids
motors pickup toque more so then hp
never mind a leaned out epa fixed jet
this threadis foolish now sheesh
talking about mini bikes that came with adjustable carbs so foolish


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## Shovel (Mar 26, 2019)

jherbicide said:


> It took me awhile to digest that, but I do think you’re right now. It would be interesting to see a “pure” chart, as in setting the carb governor to allow full power runs at 3600. I wrongly assumed that chart represented a typical dyno pull; ie ungoverned.
> 
> To save some of my face, I guess I can’t trust those curves due to the carb engine being handicapped accordingly.
> 
> ...


Exactly...the chart has the dip on the end as the carb doesn't fully open until it's loaded down to around 3350 ...while the electronic one opens up fully pretty much immediately...The electronic governor will keep engine speed up during lighter load conditions..which is good. 
As a side note though...I can't tell what percent load I am running an engine with an electronic governor...but with a carb if I was mowing and using that chart I would set cut height then want to have my ground speed pull me down to about 3425 RPM for 50 to 60 percent duty cycle.


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## JJG723 (Mar 7, 2015)

jherbicide said:


> Plus this is all assuming the carb and EFI’s are rated at the same CFM (flow rate), amongst other things. For all we know (and what I suspect) is the EFI has a bigger bore or otherwise flows better. It may also have other changes like a different camshaft, etc.
> 
> I suspect this due to their power curve; to me it looks like the carb version can’t support WOT full load above 3400ish rpm.
> 
> ...


This is exactly what I've experienced in real world testing as I mentioned in my previous post. After years of running carbs and now with my first EFI, the EFI's ability to maintain peak power output was instantly noticeable.


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## tabora (Mar 1, 2017)

dagjohnsen56 said:


> This Honda does have fuel injection Honda HSL2511E snowplow 16,5kW | Manel Service


Yes, a number of the twins have EFI, but we were talking about singles...


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## dagjohnsen56 (Dec 7, 2021)

tabora said:


> Yes, a number of the twins have EFI, but we were talking about singles...


Point is Honda use EFI on high end right?


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## Shovel (Mar 26, 2019)

1132le said:


> they woudnt be the fixed jet falls on its face
> thats why people are rejetting already lean epa carbs
> most blowers come set under spec and arleady out of jet @ 3500 never mind 3700 or 3900
> efi makes it spot on so keeps the torque
> ...


These run a little under 15 to 1 out of the box..most dont go lean until 4500 plus rpm.
Fuel has mass and throttle response suffers a touch compared to efi..in other words a lean dip during throttle application as fuel has to be pulled up through the jets...this is very brief however. 
Also some of our lean condition on these is the temperature itself...thats the government and test parameters..with a carb you can up the fuel a little by changing jets..not with EFI though.
There are many many members here that have turned up engine speed on carbed models and swear by the performance increase as night and day...that will have them throttle wide open at 3600 with full load.
I don't Personally..I actually run at 3450 for engine life 



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## dagjohnsen56 (Dec 7, 2021)

jherbicide said:


> Plus this is all assuming the carb and EFI’s are rated at the same CFM (flow rate), amongst other things. For all we know (and what I suspect) is the EFI has a bigger bore or otherwise flows better. It may also have other changes like a different camshaft, etc.
> 
> I suspect this due to their power curve; to me it looks like the carb version can’t support WOT full load above 3400ish rpm.
> 
> ...


This is the core of the discussion. So if the max performance under full load are 10% higher that is significant. It would be like having a 10% larger engine even if the cc are the same.


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## jherbicide (Oct 14, 2021)

dagjohnsen56 said:


> This is the core of the discussion. So if the max performance under full load are 10% higher that is significant. It would be like having a 10% larger engine even if the cc are the same.


Yes, but it makes sense (now) to me. The magic isn’t so much the EFI itself, it’s the way the electronic governor effectively gives you a 200rpm advantage. Plus the “Perception” that the engine is more powerful because it doesn’t slow down under load.

You could adjust the carbs mechanical governor to do operate at the same loaded rpm, but you can’t eliminate the rpm drop; ie set no load rpm to 3800 and the loaded rpm will be 3600 (guesstimate) and it will be comparable performance wise to the EFI.


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## dagjohnsen56 (Dec 7, 2021)

jherbicide said:


> Yes, but it makes sense (now) to me. The magic isn’t so much the EFI itself, it’s the way the electronic governor effectively gives you a 200rpm advantage. Plus the “Perception” that the engine is more powerful because it doesn’t slow down under load.
> 
> You could adjust the carbs mechanical governor to do operate at the same loaded rpm, but you can’t eliminate the rpm drop; ie set no load rpm to 3800 and the loaded rpm will be 3600 (guesstimate) and it will be comparable performance wise to the EFI.


What happens if you retune the EFI engine to run 3800 rpm then?


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## 1132le (Feb 23, 2017)

Shovel said:


> These run a little under 15 to 1 out of the box..most dont go lean until 4500 plus rpm.
> Fuel has mass and throttle response suffers a touch compared to efi..in other words a lean dip during throttle application as fuel has to be pulled up through the jets...this is very brief however.
> Also some of our lean condition on these is the temperature itself...thats the government and test parameters..with a carb you can up the fuel a little by changing jets..not with EFI though.
> There are many many members here that have turned up engine speed on carbed models and swear by the performance increase as night and day...that will have them throttle wide open at 3600 with full load.
> ...


There are many many members here that have turned up engine speed on carbed models and swear by the performance increase as night and day...that will have them throttle wide open at 3600 with full load.
I don't Personally..I actually run at 3450 for engine life 

you mean me lol
the performance increase comes from a higher impeller rpm
if the jets are lean at 3600 requiring choke they are dead at 3900 again ive done it
meanwhile you are running 3400
at 4500 theres hole in the block
[email protected] specs
they are not at full throttle @3600


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## Tony-chicago (Feb 10, 2021)

leonz said:


> You won't see turbos on small snow blowers unless they are
> three cylinder air cooled diesels with indirect or direct injection
> as the turbocharger is mounted on the exhaust manifold as a rule
> to allow easier placement of the intake and pressure piping for the
> air inlet.


Maybe a two-stroke diesel...


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## jherbicide (Oct 14, 2021)

dagjohnsen56 said:


> What happens if you retune the EFI engine to run 3800 rpm then?


If you could, it would then maintain the same advantage. In theory of course. I don’t think us regular end users can do such a thing.


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## ChrisJ (Nov 27, 2014)

I guess it's possible if comparing a lean running (EPA compliant) carb to a lean running EFI setup the EFI would perform better.

But a properly tuned carb to a crude EFI setup like on these small engines I personally see no reason to expect a power increase at all let alone a big one.

I have no doubt any machines made over the last few years would be running on the lean side though.


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## Shovel (Mar 26, 2019)

1132le said:


> There are many many members here that have turned up engine speed on carbed models and swear by the performance increase as night and day...that will have them throttle wide open at 3600 with full load.
> I don't Personally..I actually run at 3450 for engine life
> 
> you mean me lol
> ...


Most people are actually lean on the pilot circuit not the main..a large portion of the fuel comes from the pilot circuit under no load condition as the throttle is barely open...this causes the surging more often than the main.
Also the higher the rpm the stiffer the spring needs to be..the weights in the governor have four times as much force when speed is doubled..so to achieve the same percentage of droop lighter spring for slower rpm..stronger spring for higher rpm...yes you can adjust the rpm up with the lighter spring but droop will be less than with the stiffer spring.
That is why alot of the engines start to surge at higher rpm when over sped...the pilot isn't feeding any more fuel at 3600 vs 3900..as its reliance is more on vacuum than venturi effect...second ..too light a spring.
No...I dont run 4500 and pull down tp 3450..my no load speed is 3450 before pull down...The mention of 4000 plus rpms is what the the AF remains consistent to as compared to 3600 under full load.
And agreed the butterfly is not fully open at 3600 rpm if the engine is governed for 3600 on a carb engine...its what I have been saying for the last several posts.


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## ChrisJ (Nov 27, 2014)

To be fair I assume we're all trying to compare apples to apples IE stock machines to stock machines.

Rejetting the carb and modifying the governor and then comparing to a totally stock EFI machine isn't really fair.

What I do find fascinating is that I saw many on here bashing EFI saying they would never own it and no one should buy it and I don't recall anyone defending it and now I've seen what, two threads this week with multiple people saying how great it is.


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## leonz (Dec 12, 2014)

Tony-chicago said:


> Maybe a two-stroke diesel...


========================================================================================

The one that was brought out in 2014 was water cooled with a turbocharger 
and heavier than a 4 stroke air cooled Duetz or HATZ diesel engine.


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## Shovel (Mar 26, 2019)

ChrisJ said:


> To be fair I assume we're all trying to compare apples to apples IE stock machines to stock machines.
> 
> Rejetting the carb and modifying the governor and then comparing to a totally stock EFI machine isn't really fair.
> 
> What I do find fascinating is that I saw many on here bashing EFI saying they would never own it and no one should buy it and I don't recall anyone defending it and now I've seen what, two threads this week with multiple people saying how great it is.


Well many on here do bump engine speed to 3800 to 3900 ..which offsets the droop..could actually have an advantage under lighter load as rpms will be higher than with the non adjustable EFI units.
When pulled down under load the machines would be equal. 
In all reality max horsepower is only about a fourth of a horsepower higher with the EFI unit shown anyway.
The advantage with the EFI is less governor droop which let's engine rpm stay up during lighter load conditions. 
I am not bashing EFI ..just showing that it has a very low droop rate. 
I am still a carb man..I like to choose my RPM as I have a rock driveway..carb cleaning is essentially free...thus cheaper to maintain...if a carb clogs..I can fix it in short order. If the EFI has issues I would be down a while.
Sure the EFI is nice...it starts right up..no choke to have to mess with...virtually no governor droop which will keep RPM up better under partial loads .
I won't be buying one as long as carbed units are still being sold









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## Six Pack (Jan 29, 2021)

EFI would be better under most conditions, as it can adjust for ambient temperature, elevation, etc.

While a carb can be set up to run ideal, carbs rarely run ideal. I own a dirt bike, and it's absolutely frustrating for me to attempt to find the correct jet sizes, clip position, etc, to run ideally at different elevations and ambient temps. In fact, I'm thinking of trading it in for an EFI bike simply because I'm tired of fiddling with the carb to get the best performance.


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## ChrisJ (Nov 27, 2014)

Six Pack said:


> EFI would be better under most conditions, as it can adjust for ambient temperature, elevation, etc.
> 
> While a carb can be set up to run ideal, carbs rarely run ideal. I own a dirt bike, and it's absolutely frustrating for me to attempt to find the correct jet sizes, clip position, etc, to run ideally at different elevations and ambient temps. In fact, I'm thinking of trading it in for an EFI bike simply because I'm tired of fiddling with the carb to get the best performance.


Completely off topic but there were carburetors that would adjust mixture vs altitude and barometric pressure. I owned one and honestly I had no complaints about it.

Besides a barometric pressure sensor it also used an O2 sensor.

Just throwing it out there.


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## Six Pack (Jan 29, 2021)

ChrisJ said:


> Completely off topic but there were carburetors that would adjust mixture vs altitude and barometric pressure. I owned one and honestly I had no complaints about it.
> 
> Besides a barometric pressure sensor it also used an O2 sensor.
> 
> Just throwing it out there.


Yup. Thought about buying a Lectron carb, but it still wouldn't provide the precise levels of metering that EFI can provide.

And I do believe this is on topic, as it shows that while carbs do work, it is very rarely that they work as ideally as an EFI system can work with regards to metering.


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## jherbicide (Oct 14, 2021)

ChrisJ said:


> Completely off topic but there were carburetors that would adjust mixture vs altitude and barometric pressure. I owned one and honestly I had no complaints about it.
> 
> Besides a barometric pressure sensor it also used an O2 sensor.
> 
> Just throwing it out there.


The reality is both systems have their positives and negatives.

I’m a motorcycle guy at heart, and I love CV carbs for anything not racing. Except compared to EFI. With that said, I certainly wouldn’t want a CV on A snow blower. It’s far too complex for what these machines require. Just imagine all the “ran last year but won’t start this season” complaints if these things had CV carbs. 

(CV carbs self adjust for atmospheric pressure and offer near EFI quality throttle response, economy, etc, but they are fairly complex)

Overall my 2 cents is personally I still prefer carbs on snow blowers but I’m not blind to the benefits of EFI. I’ll switch “allegiances” if they ditch the battery and go to a “two pull” setup like most snowmobiles with EFI.


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## tabora (Mar 1, 2017)

dagjohnsen56 said:


> Point is Honda use EFI on high end right?


Pretty much every automobile engine these days is EFI. This trickles down to many multi-cylinder engines. My point is that Honda has further trickled it down to the higher end inverter generators in the "small engine" (read under 500cc) space, but not yet into the snowblower market. Personally I'm looking forward to the technology advance (cleaner running), but the existing carbureted GX390 works just fine for me...


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## Tseg (Jan 29, 2021)

Just a question… we know carbs are sensitive to improper fuel system maintenance between seasons. I also know fuel injector ports are much smaller than any ports in a carb. I would think EFI would be even more susceptible to first start of season fuel issues than a carb when fuel systems are not properly “summarized”. What am I missing? We already know EFI can be battery challenged at the start of a new season if the battery is not properly maintained.


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## Six Pack (Jan 29, 2021)

Tseg said:


> Just a question… we know carbs are sensitive to improper fuel system maintenance between seasons. I also know fuel injector ports are much smaller than any ports in a carb. I would think EFI would be even more susceptible to first start of season fuel issues than a carb when fuel systems are not properly “summarized”. What am I missing? We already know EFI can be battery challenged at the start of a new season if the battery is not properly maintained.


I'm by no means an expert, but the EFI system on these engines is a very simple throttle body style system. The claim is that because the system is sealed (unlike a carb, which has to be vented to the atmosphere to work), there's less chance of the fuel going bad in the first place.

My Deluxe 30 EFI will start easily after sitting for months and months, but as you've mentioned the battery does need to be charged. I also stabilize my fuel, and don't run gasoline that contains ethanol.

The technology itself is proven I would think, since pretty much all cars were running throttle body injection back in the 1980's already.

That said, time will tell as to the long term reliability of the system. But the EFI system on these blowers is about as simple as they can get really... There's nothing complex about it, and anyone that's comfortable stripping apart a carb wouldn't find this simple EFI system overwhelming in how it works.


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## dman2 (Sep 22, 2019)

EFI is proven on cars, not on snow blowers.

EFI with computer management systems are going to give you a performance edge for sure, but is this worth it on snow blower?

There are cost and benefit that everyone (include Honda) has to weight. I would still pick a bigger cc engine over an EFI engine right now.

Same with the electronic chute control. Everyone want them biggest and baldest. Not until they break.


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## dagjohnsen56 (Dec 7, 2021)

dman2 said:


> EFI is proven on cars, not on snow blowers.
> 
> EFI with computer management systems are going to give you a performance edge for sure, but is this worth it on snow blower?
> 
> ...


I understand your choice but me having a manual chute on my Rapidtrak PRO with EFI, next year the Rapidtrak PRO gets a electric chute but the EFI are taken away. Thought I wanted the 2022 model but without EFI I am really not so sure anymore.


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## Tseg (Jan 29, 2021)

How many injectors are in a snowblower? I was reading about failed car injectors and there was a comment to the effect, “don’t worry, there are multiple injectors, so even if one fails, the others will start the vehicle.”


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## Six Pack (Jan 29, 2021)

Tseg said:


> How many injectors are in a snowblower? I was reading about failed car injectors and there was a comment to the effect, “don’t worry, there are multiple injectors, so even if one fails, the others will start the vehicle.”


There are no injectors on an EFI snow engine as you may think them to be...


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## Tseg (Jan 29, 2021)

I have been looking up injector stories from motorcycles and will say there are limited stories about problems of old gas and EFI engines. But I did read an anecdote why shutting off fuel to the carb is important that I’m not sure I’ve heard before:

_It's also especially problematic on engines with gravity-fed carburetors because if you don't shut off the fuel supply, the float valve will continually replace the gas that evaporates out of the bowl, creating an increasingly thick layer of the crap that's left behind when gasoline evaporates. If you shut the petcock, only the gas in the bowl evaporates which may or may not leave enough gunk to cause problems. (Lawnmowers and such are gravity fed but usually don't have fuel shutoffs, which is part of why they're often thought to be more ethanol sensitive.)_


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## jherbicide (Oct 14, 2021)

Tseg said:


> I have been looking up injector stories from motorcycles and will say there are limited stories about problems of old gas and EFI engines. But I did read an anecdote why shutting off fuel to the carb is important that I’m not sure I’ve heard before:
> 
> _It's also especially problematic on engines with gravity-fed carburetors because if you don't shut off the fuel supply, the float valve will continually replace the gas that evaporates out of the bowl, creating an increasingly thick layer of the crap that's left behind when gasoline evaporates. If you shut the petcock, only the gas in the bowl evaporates which may or may not leave enough gunk to cause problems. (Lawnmowers and such are gravity fed but usually don't have fuel shutoffs, which is part of why they're often thought to be more ethanol sensitive.)_


This right here. Your “quote” is spot on, and explains probably 95% of carb issues in power equipment (and motorcycles too). I’ve mentioned this in other posts around here. 

On an EFI system, there is even less fuel to worry about evaporating, and it’s less likely to evaporate at all. Plus it’s pump fed, so even if a little varnish is in the injector orifice, it’s got a good chance to be dislodged by the higher pressure the pump provided.


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## dman2 (Sep 22, 2019)

EFI is easier to start up, but I think you took too much credits for its gasoline preservation ability. Gasoline goes bad after six month, no matter what you do to it. Being exposed to oxygen does make them go bad quicker, but there are other contributed factors. Even gasoline tanks on cars have vents that open up while you are parking your car. You drive your car everyday, while you only use your snow blower every winter. Driving help clean your fuel injectors. With EFI, you are introduced to other problems that maybe costly.


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## dman2 (Sep 22, 2019)

I have nothing against EFI on snow blower, as long as they are able to build them cheap, reliable and have replacement parts. There maybe a future for it. I'm not going to take little performance gain over reliability and cost.


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## Shovel (Mar 26, 2019)

We got some snow last night...had to take my lowly 208cc carbed Powermore powered MTD based Craftsman out in it..the rpm drop is noticeable for sure..I wasn't running out of power but did have rpm loss due to governor droop...my snow was wet so distance wasn't great...there are times that 200 extra rpm would help me put the snow more where I want it..A more constant engine speed would have helped me about 10 percent of the time today with increased throwing distance 
I do have have an impeller kit..and also ground off some material on the pulley halves so the belt rides higher..giving me more impeller RPM..without that..I would have been begging for more engine speed in a couple places.. EFI would have been nice and benefited me more in a stock machine..EFI does have its benifits I suppose 

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## Shovel (Mar 26, 2019)

dman2 said:


> I have nothing against EFI on snow blower, as long as they are able to build them cheap, reliable and have replacement parts. There maybe a future for it. I'm not going to take little performance gain over reliability and cost.


That's where I stand as well...I just can't risk a failure as I only have one blower.

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## tabora (Mar 1, 2017)

Tseg said:


> How many injectors are in a snowblower?





Six Pack said:


> There are no injectors on an EFI snow engine as you may think them to be...


On the EFI GX390, there is just one on the throttle body (#9). It's not direct injection into the cylinder.


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

Tseg said:


> How many injectors are in a snowblower? I was reading about failed car injectors and there was a comment to the effect, “don’t worry, there are multiple injectors, so even if one fails, the others will start the vehicle.”


On the Ariens system there is a single injector, but it is throttle body, not port or GDI, so pretty low pressure by comparison. Cars have _never_ had more than one injector per cylinder, but yes, with one per, you might start, but will run with a dead hole (IE very poorly). Then again, injector failures just aren't that common or much of a concern these days . . .

Not sure why folks seem so amazed at needing to maintain the battery. Long term park a car and see how well that works out for you . . . .


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## Tseg (Jan 29, 2021)

tadawson said:


> Not sure why folks seem so amazed at needing to maintain the battery. Long term park a car and see how well that works out for you . . . .


I’m not sure amazed is my view, just an observation that with a battery start carbed blower, if the battery is dead, one pull and it starts. If my kid pulled the battery tender over the summer to power the air pump and forgets to plug back in the tender, if I had EFI I may be sorely disappointed come the first snow.


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## Six Pack (Jan 29, 2021)

Tseg said:


> I’m not sure amazed is my view, just an observation that with a battery start carbed blower, if the battery is dead, one pull and it starts. If my kid pulled the battery tender over the summer to power the air pump and forgets to plug back in the tender, if I had EFI I may be sorely disappointed come the first snow.


The battery doesn't have to be charged all the time though. Just plug the charger in for a day or so every few months in the warm season (optional, but recommended), and then one last time before the snow hits and you should be good to go.


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## 1132le (Feb 23, 2017)

Tseg said:


> I’m not sure amazed is my view, just an observation that with a battery start carbed blower, if the battery is dead, one pull and it starts. If my kid pulled the battery tender over the summer to power the air pump and forgets to plug back in the tender, if I had EFI I may be sorely disappointed come the first snow.





Tseg said:


> I’m not sure amazed is my view, just an observation that with a battery start carbed blower, if the battery is dead, one pull and it starts. If my kid pulled the battery tender over the summer to power the air pump and forgets to plug back in the tender, if I had EFI I may be sorely disappointed come the first snow.


make your kid shovel the driveway dont blame the blower
as stated it doesnt need to be tended very much
i start my blowers up 3 times in the summer
prolly why all my chit starts 1 pull for 40 plus yrs


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

Tseg said:


> I’m not sure amazed is my view, just an observation that with a battery start carbed blower, if the battery is dead, one pull and it starts. If my kid pulled the battery tender over the summer to power the air pump and forgets to plug back in the tender, if I had EFI I may be sorely disappointed come the first snow.


Irrelevant - this isn't battery start . . . and you don't use the charger all summer. Just once every 3 months or so for about 12 hours. Not exactly difficult or complicated, and the blower charges itself while in use.

Myself, when it's single digits and the blower won't start, I'd much rather spend 30 sexonds to connect a charger and leave it for a few hours than have to remove and clean a carb . . . 

For that matter, the same can be said for leaving a carbed blower "wet" and having the carb gunk up - something that does not happen with EFI since, unlike a carb, nothing is open to the atmosphere. (It's recommended, iirc, to leave EFI wet . . . I don't think it even has a fuel shutoff valve . . .)


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## Six Pack (Jan 29, 2021)

tadawson said:


> (It's recommended, iirc, to leave EFI wet . . . I don't think it even has a fuel shutoff valve . . .)


Correct. My Ariens EFI does not have a fuel shutoff, and the system is to be stored wet even for long term storage intervals.


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## Sam Am I (Oct 28, 2021)

Since the EFI/Carb has ran it's course and someone mentioned battery...

Geeesh, read the entire thing(very informative thou), but I do feel my Carb'd TB does bog (maybe "grunts" is a better term) a bit easier then my GLE EFI, the EFI just seems more smooth and steady with relative varying loads, but two diff machines so maybe apples and oranges.......

At any rate and a bit off topic, but still Ariens EFI related.... 

The EFI batts in our Ariens are NiMh and rule of thumb for these types is that they'll self discharge(no load, just sitting on shelf) at a rate of around 2% per day.

So in two month w key off of course...POOF, dead duck!! And leaving them sit dead isn't good on them either, so.....

My storage plan(battery) is to plug the battery into it's wall charger and plug the wall charger into a smart plug(timer outlet) that only turns on for 24hrs once a month...done deal.


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## jherbicide (Oct 14, 2021)

Sam Am I said:


> Since the EFI/Carb has ran it's course and someone mentioned battery...
> 
> My storage plan(battery) is to plug the battery into it's wall charger and plug the wall charger into a smart plug(timer outlet) that only turns on for 24hrs once a month...done deal.


This gets my vote. If I owned one of these, I would _absolutely _need to do this. I would forget about it over the off season and be cursing it profusely when the first storm hit. One not mentioned benefit EFI could provide is no "shakedown" run required before the season. Of course I know it should still be done, but I also know my nature...


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## JJG723 (Mar 7, 2015)

I enjoy reading the opinions on EFI snowblowers of the people who've never actually run one. Data on paper is just that. There's a reason why we play the game. The real world doesn't exist on paper. The feel in the handgrips, the sound to my ears, and the sight of the snow flying out of the chute prove to me EFI is superior.

But what when this breaks? But what if this happens? But your battery is dead? NOPE, doesn't matter. (We're already seeing people come into this forum with battery powered machines with switch failures, motor failures, and battery failures. If I had a circumstance where I thought a battery machine would be better, that wouldn't prevent me from buying one.) That's not what this thread is about. This whole discussion is EFI vs. carbed with two identical machines both running absolutely perfect. I think we can all agree that impeller tip speed is critical to snowblower performance. The fact is EFI maintains that tip speed better than carbureted.

In the end, both are machines and there will be a failure at some point of some kind. If you as the owner, regardless of what version you're running, can't diagnose/repair the issue that's on you. Buy a shovel. Or wait for the dealer and who knows when you'll get your machine back.

Sorry, rant over. LoL


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## dagjohnsen56 (Dec 7, 2021)

JJG723 said:


> I enjoy reading the opinions on EFI snowblowers of the people who've never actually run one. Data on paper is just that. There's a reason why we play the game. The real world doesn't exist on paper. The feel in the handgrips, the sound to my ears, and the sight of the snow flying out of the chute prove to me EFI is superior.
> 
> But what when this breaks? But what if this happens? But your battery is dead? NOPE, doesn't matter. (We're already seeing people come into this forum with battery powered machines with switch failures, motor failures, and battery failures. If I had a circumstance where I thought a battery machine would be better, that wouldn't prevent me from buying one.) That's not what this thread is about. This whole discussion is EFI vs. carbed with two identical machines both running absolutely perfect. I think we can all agree that impeller tip speed is critical to snowblower performance. The fact is EFI maintains that tip speed better than carbureted.
> 
> ...


good post


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## 1132le (Feb 23, 2017)

ye


JJG723 said:


> I enjoy reading the opinions on EFI snowblowers of the people who've never actually run one. Data on paper is just that. There's a reason why we play the game. The real world doesn't exist on paper. The feel in the handgrips, the sound to my ears, and the sight of the snow flying out of the chute prove to me EFI is superior.
> 
> But what when this breaks? But what if this happens? But your battery is dead? NOPE, doesn't matter. (We're already seeing people come into this forum with battery powered machines with switch failures, motor failures, and battery failures. If I had a circumstance where I thought a battery machine would be better, that wouldn't prevent me from buying one.) That's not what this thread is about. This whole discussion is EFI vs. carbed with two identical machines both running absolutely perfect. I think we can all agree that impeller tip speed is critical to snowblower performance. The fact is EFI maintains that tip speed better than carbureted.
> 
> ...


yeah it funny someone whos never run one acting like they know anything
picking up 1/4 of a hp with efi
but he is running a 208cc thinks he would pick up 10% with 200 rpm
reality is 40 impeller rpm on a 1020 base maybye 4 % tops
i on the other hand was shocked at the drastic improvement in the efi it holds the torque 300 rpm longer and i run a modded 414cc that has power not a [email protected] 3400
.25 of a hp is a rounding error ridiculous
comparing fixed jet snowblowers to 1970 mini bikes with adjustable carbs and generators silly


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## Shovel (Mar 26, 2019)

1132le said:


> ye
> 
> yeah it funny someone whos never run one acting like they know anything
> picking up 1/4 of a hp with efi
> ...


Apparently directed at me..so I feel forced to clarify. 
The chart from Ariens itself shows about a fourth of a hp increase ..I never claimed to have tested otherwise.

Your logic is flawed with the 10 percent difference in engine speed using my 208 as your example...Fact is a ten percent change in engine speed is a change of 10 percent change in impeller speed ..they are proportional to each other...when the engine slows 10 percent so does the impeller...Fact
Also to point out...it was I that stated the advantage of EFI is the electronic governor which has very little droop compared to carbed models...You appeared to have trouble understanding...thus why generators were brought into the discussion ...mini bikes the same...also mini bikes don't run under no load unless the wheel is off the ground...thus you can set no load engine speed higher than 3600 ...for if you have it set to 3600 ...its not going to run 3600 under load...same with the generators...thus why they were set at base 3750 rpms so when under load they ran 3600.
Just because you do not understand governor droop does not change the fact that I do.

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## ChrisJ (Nov 27, 2014)

@Shovel 
I'm tired so my math may be off but for a 10% drop in engine rpm I get a 2% drop in impeller rpm for most Ariens machines.


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## Shovel (Mar 26, 2019)

ChrisJ said:


> @Shovel
> I'm tired so my math may be off but for a 10% drop in engine rpm I get a 2% drop in impeller rpm for most Ariens machines.


The percentage drop is the same for fixed size pulleys...if engines slows 10 percent..impeller slows 10 percent as well.
Now there are some variable speed pulleys on some simplicity machines..but am not aware of ariens using them yet..I have been out of the loop for a while..but if Ariens is using variable speed pulleys..its a fairly recent thing.....its cost prohibitive and would be only for the upper end machines as well.

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## ChrisJ (Nov 27, 2014)

Shovel said:


> The percentage drop is the same for fixed size pulleys...if engines slows 10 percent..impeller slows 10 percent as well.
> Now there are some variable speed pulleys on some simplicity machines..but am not aware of ariens using them yet..I have been out of the loop for a while..but if Ariens is using variable speed pulleys..its a fairly recent thing
> 
> Sent from my SM-A115U1 using Tapatalk


Ive been sitting here trying to figure out how that makes sense. Obviously if the engine drops 100% the impeller won't still be spinning.

But at the same time most run 3:1 so how could the percentage be the same?

I'm definitely having a duh moment.


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## 1132le (Feb 23, 2017)

ChrisJ said:


> Ive been sitting here trying to figure out how that makes sense. Obviously if the engine drops 100% the impeller won't still be spinning.
> 
> But at the same time most run 3:1 so how could the percentage be the same?
> 
> I'm definitely having a duh moment.


its 20 to 25 impeller rpm per 100 rpm
as someone who has moded the rpms many times i know what it does
not guessing 10% and being wrong its silly at this point
i wonder if we can work leaf blowers into this thread


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## ChrisJ (Nov 27, 2014)

1132le said:


> its 20 to 25 impeller rpm per 100 rpm
> as someone who has moded the rpms many times i know what it does
> not guessing 10% and being wrong its silly at this point
> i wonder if we can work leaf blowers into this thread


My dad very often uses his leaf blower on snow..

I'm sorry that's the best I've got right now.


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## jherbicide (Oct 14, 2021)

⚠ Math warning: 

3600-3400=200 (rpm drop)
200/3600= 0.05556 or 5.6% in engine speed

Both engine speed and impeller will drop 5.6 percent. But…assuming the impeller ration is 3:1 the impeller will drop:

3600/3=1200 (impeller rpm @3:1 ratio)
.05556 X 1200 = 66.7 rpm drop. 

The percentage change stays the same but the overall rpm change is reduced due to the 3:1 reduction


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## 1132le (Feb 23, 2017)

jherbicide said:


> ⚠ Math warning:
> 
> 3600-3400=200 (rpm drop)
> 200/3600= 0.05556 or 5.6% in engine speed
> ...


look its no 3 to 1 ive measured actual drop with a laser tach 50 times or more on all kinds of blowers
and impeller are not close to 1200 honda excluded ive prolly checked 100 machines for rpm
almost all are 3400 less then 3500 one was 2800 woudnt throw snow for chit


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## Shovel (Mar 26, 2019)

ChrisJ said:


> Ive been sitting here trying to figure out how that makes sense. Obviously if the engine drops 100% the impeller won't still be spinning.
> 
> But at the same time most run 3:1 so how could the percentage be the same?
> 
> I'm definitely having a duh moment.


The percentage drop is the same for engine and impeller as they are fixed pulleys sizes...think of a old stick shift truck for an example (without shifting gears)...say 3000 rpm at 60 mph...that will equate to 40 mph at 2000...20 mph at 1000 rpms
The wheels....which will be the impeller in this case were spinning 900 rpm at 60..will be spinning 600 rpm at 40 mph.. and 300 rpms for 20 mph.

Or how about this a big dirt bike that will turn the engine 10,000 rpms..rear wheel speed is 1000 rpm..reduce engine speed to 9000 rear wheel speed will be 900.
Reduce engine speed to 8000 rear wheel speed will be 800 rpms and so on.


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## jherbicide (Oct 14, 2021)

1132le said:


> look its no 3 to 1 ive measured actual drop with a laser tach 50 times or more on all kinds of blowers
> and impeller are not close to 1200 honda excluded ive prolly checked 100 machines for rpm
> almost all are 3400 less then 3500 one was 2800 woudnt throw snow for chit


I just used 3:1 as a rough guess. If we know the actual ratio we could do the same math to figure out impeller rpm drop, at any given engine rpm.


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## 1132le (Feb 23, 2017)

jherbicide said:


> I just used 3:1 as a rough guess. If we know the actual ratio we could do the same math to figure out impeller rpm drop, at any given engine rpm.


i told you the drop 20 to 25 per100 rpm it adds very lil distance especially on and underpowered 208cc mtd thats a pretend snowblower 
it doesnt blow snow because mtd have 1 of the biggest gaps imp to housing ive checked a few
i put a kit on 10/29 with the rpm set to 3750 still didnt blow snow well
awful collar on the chute


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## ChrisJ (Nov 27, 2014)

jherbicide said:


> I just used 3:1 as a rough guess. If we know the actual ratio we could do the same math to figure out impeller rpm drop, at any given engine rpm.


My 924 had a 9" OD and 2.75 OD so 3.27:1 in theory. This is where Ariens 1100 rpm figure came from.

I assume most older Ariens were very similar.


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## 1132le (Feb 23, 2017)

ChrisJ said:


> My 924 had a 9" OD and 2.75 OD so 3.27:1 in theory. This is where Ariens 1100 rpm figure came from.
> 
> I assume most older Ariens were very similar.


as tested 927le is 1020 ish on its best day at 3600
all the top notch 924 series 11528 924506 10/24 pro 1332 1336 all rated 1210
none over 1050 ever
my 1332 running 3800 rpm was 1090
ariens said the ohv 358cc was 13 hp it was 10.5 nice marketing bs right up there with there imp speed bs
town found the same on the pro vs his 30 sho rated higher the pro same pulleys just a bs impeler speed poof


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## ChrisJ (Nov 27, 2014)

1132le said:


> as tested 927le is 1020 ish on its best day at 3600
> all the top notch 924 series 11528 924506 10/24 pro 1332 1336 all rated 1210
> none over 1050 ever
> my 1332 running 3800 rpm was 1090
> ...


I can only tell you what I personally measured and in this case it was the pulleys on my machine.

My current setup is a 3.25" + 8.5" but I haven't measured actual impeller speed I can only assume it's fast enough.


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## jherbicide (Oct 14, 2021)

1132le said:


> my 1332 running 3800 rpm was 1090


Ok, that calculates out to:

3800/1090 = 3.486:1 engine to auger RPM ratio.

If they're using the same pulleys/ratio, it would be a loss of:

3600/3.486 = 1033 auger rpm
3400/3.486 = 975 auger rpm 

1033-975 = 58 rpm loss (5.6%)

I have no clue what the ratio is on these new Ariens units, but I'd bet its somewhere between the 3:1 and 3.5:1. These numbers to tell a story that backs up what you and others have been saying.


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## jherbicide (Oct 14, 2021)

ChrisJ said:


> My 924 had a 9" OD and 2.75 OD so 3.27:1 in theory. This is where Ariens 1100 rpm figure came from.
> 
> I assume most older Ariens were very similar.


In that case 200rpm engine change would equal a:

200/3.27 = 61.2 rpm auger speed change.


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## 1132le (Feb 23, 2017)

jherbicide said:


> In that case 200rpm engine change would equal a:
> 
> 200/3.27 = 61.2 rpm auger speed change.


the belts effect that ive measured a 927le in the real world it 20 to 25 per 100 rpm
peat repeat


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## jherbicide (Oct 14, 2021)

1132le said:


> the belts effect that ive measured a 927le in the real world it 20 to 25 per 100 rpm
> peat repeat


I'm just crunching numbers here. But that's quite a bit different than 3-3.5 to 1, 20-25 rpm per 100 would equal 4-5 to 1. That would mean in theory those augers are turning 680-850 rpm at 3400 engine rpm in the real world too, and 720-900 at 3600rpm

You earlier said 3600 rpm was 1020 auger on its best day. That would be a 3.53:1 ratio.


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## 1132le (Feb 23, 2017)

i could care less the ratio the laser tach gives you real world then you bump it 100 rpm you get 20 to 25 more on stock ariens machines and some others
the sho was said to 1083 its been measured less more like 1050isk
id have to look mine up it was suppose to be 1010 i was 1025 i think at 3525 stock i cant recall
the newer pros are suppose to be over 1100 the have the same top and bottom pulley as the sho 2.75 top pulley same bottom as well
its ariens bs


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## Shovel (Mar 26, 2019)

1132le said:


> i told you the drop 20 to 25 per100 rpm it adds very lil distance especially on and underpowered 208cc mtd thats a pretend snowblower


The reduction on 12inch impellers on MTDs as of modern is 3.25...which is 30.77 rpm drop at the impeller per 100 rpm drop in engine speed.
How are you getting the impellers to not slow down proportionally to engine speed?


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## Shovel (Mar 26, 2019)

1132le said:


> Edited for brevity:
> underpowered 208cc mtd thats a pretend snowblower
> it doesnt blow snow because mtd have 1 of the biggest gaps imp to housing ive checked a few


Here is a video that a member posted here with the 179 cc engine on a troybilt which is MTD based.
It appears to blow snow just fine.







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## Shovel (Mar 26, 2019)

1132le said:


> i could care less the ratio the laser tach gives you real world then you bump it 100 rpm you get 20 to 25 more on stock ariens machines and some others
> the sho was said to 1083 its been measured less more like 1050isk
> id have to look mine up it was suppose to be 1010 i was 1025 i think at 3525 stock i cant recall
> the newer pros are suppose to be over 1100 the have the same top and bottom pulley as the sho 2.75 top pulley same bottom as well
> its ariens bs


Math doesn't add up as as that would show impeller rpm of 720 to 900 rpms at 3600 rpms..for your 20 to 25 rpm drop per 100 rpm drop of engine.
I don't think that laser tach is picking up the tape every revolution....just doesn't compute.


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## 1132le (Feb 23, 2017)

for you ratio people
the motor fies every other revolution you need to avg the readings
as delived my 28 pluse 414cc avg full rpm was 3565 rpm imp was 1040 ish
upped motor to 3835 avg imp 1110 ish

270 rpm avg increase 70ish impeller rpm increase


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## jherbicide (Oct 14, 2021)

1132le said:


> for you ratio people
> the motor fies every other revolution you need to avg the readings
> as delived my 28 pluse 414cc avg full rpm was 3565 rpm imp was 1040 ish
> upped motor to 3835 avg imp 1110 ish
> ...


3565/1040 = 3.43 to 1
3835/1110 = 3.45 to 1 
Close enough to being the same when you figure in normal measuring/avg error. Call it 3.44...

270/3.44 = 78 rpm theoretical increase
78/270 = .289 (auger RPM gain per engine RPM gain)

.289 X 100 = 28.9 rpm auger gain for every 100 rpm engine gain.


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## Shovel (Mar 26, 2019)

1132le said:


> as tested 927le is 1020 ish on its best day at 3600
> all the top notch 924 series 11528 924506 10/24 pro 1332 1336 all rated 1210
> none over 1050 ever
> my 1332 running 3800 rpm was 1090
> ...


I checked my MTD a year or two ago via manual method...marking the crank pulley and the impeller and turning engine by hand...reduction was 3.25 ..which comes out to 1108 rpm at 3600.
I ground and filed the split pulley to make the belt ride closer to its edge...my new ratio was..3.11 ..which brings me to 1158 rpm if I were to run 3600 rpm.
Also to note..the 12 inch impeller sits in a 13 inch housing..with an impeller kit...the 13 inches is fully utilized(now a 13 inch impeller)...which increases impeller tip speed further...which has my impeller tip speed matching a 12 inch running in the mid 1200s...thats way up there..I have my engine speed set to 3450 rather than 3600 however...its fine...yes I could go 3600..3750..3900..rpms..for more impeller tip speed...I rarely need more throw though...only on the real wet days.
I have a rock driveway...and run only part throttle in much of the area anyway...when it's real wet I will run the 3450 anyways to prevent clogging

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## RC20 (Dec 4, 2019)

Ok, we need to clear some things here.

Its Electronic Governed, not Electric. 

Mechanical governerno ahve DROOP (most, there was a Woodward U8 (?) mechanical governer that had no droop. The droop is a result of what is called Proportional. It has to have some speed loss to work (sans some hugely comploicated mechail **** the U8 had). 

Electronic governors run in the generator world as Synchronous, ie no sustained droop. In the control world you have Proportional - Integral - Derivative. Known as PID. A mechanical governor is P, an elctonric is PID.

In short, while a sudden load can cause a droop, the farther from the set point it gets the harder the system tries to get back to the set-point ( 1800 RPM on a 4 Pole Generator). If your equipment has an electronic governor it tries to maintain the throttle speed set. 


Cars and the cruise control used to have a P type govener. You would loose 5 mph before the throttle was full to the floor. 

Current vehicles, set it at 65 mph and you will not see other than miner drop if that and it recovers to the set speed as long as there is some throttle left. 

EFI is not the same as a governor though you can incorporate a governor into EFI (car is only per the driver putting it on). 

So, yes Electronic Govenror is more responsive. It does not have to work through EFI. Diesels use a mechanical arm into the injecor pump or rack (or used to, that may be changing with Common Rail ). A truck has a minimum speed and maximum allowed (diesel) and the governor will add or rack back to maintain between the two (unless cruise control is set)

EFI claim to fame (and true) was it was the only way to reliably meet emissions (vs jazzed up eleconric carbuator that were a disaster.


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## 1132le (Feb 23, 2017)

Shovel said:


> I checked my MTD a year or two ago via manual method...marking the crank pulley and the impeller and turning engine by hand...reduction was 3.25 ..which comes out to 1108 rpm at 3600.
> I ground and filed the split pulley to make the belt ride closer to its edge...my new ratio was..3.11 ..which brings me to 1158 rpm if I were to run 3600 rpm.
> Also to note..the 12 inch impeller sits in a 13 inch housing..with an impeller kit...the 13 inches is fully utilized(now a 13 inch impeller)...which increases impeller tip speed further...which has my impeller tip speed matching a 12 inch running in the mid 1200s...thats way up there..I have my engine speed set to 3450 rather than 3600 however...its fine...yes I could go 3600..3750..3900..rpms..for more impeller tip speed...I rarely need more throw though...only on the real wet days.
> I have a rock driveway...and run only part throttle in much of the area anyway...when it's real wet I will run the 3450 anyways to prevent clogging
> ...


[email protected] turning it by hand
ive checked several including same general blower you coudnt get 1108 if you pushed off a cliff
its 1000 to 1020ish on its best [email protected]
you just complained it struggle 2 days ago you would pick up 10% with 200 rpm nott
mid 1200s smh
back to mini bkes


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## RC20 (Dec 4, 2019)

_Not according to Ariens, the Platinum 24 SHO is reported to move 73 tons of snow per hour for both the carb and EFI model. _

What kind of Horspower are they getting out of that thing? That is close to twice the snow the Honda 724 moes ! Looks like 112-14 hp? Sheese.


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## Shovel (Mar 26, 2019)

1132le said:


> i could care less the ratio the laser tach gives you real world then you bump it 100 rpm you get 20 to 25 more on stock ariens machines and some others
> the sho was said to 1083 its been measured less more like 1050isk
> id have to look mine up it was suppose to be 1010 i was 1025 i think at 3525 stock i cant recall
> the newer pros are suppose to be over 1100 the have the same top and bottom pulley as the sho 2.75 top pulley same bottom as well
> its ariens bs


How deep the belt sits in the pulley can change a reading alot...just going by pulley size alone doesn't work.
A belt with some wear will sit further in the pulley as well..further reducing speed.
Two people with identical machines can easily have two different impeller speeds just due to a little belt wear.

Sent from my SM-A115U1 using Tapatalk


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## 1132le (Feb 23, 2017)

RC20 said:


> _Not according to Ariens, the Platinum 24 SHO is reported to move 73 tons of snow per hour for both the carb and EFI model. _
> 
> What kind of Horspower are they getting out of that thing? That is close to twice the snow the Honda 724 moes ! Looks like 112-14 hp? Sheese.


its a reall 11 ish hp the old ratings 13 hp


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## Shovel (Mar 26, 2019)

1132le said:


> [email protected] turning it by hand
> ive checked several including same general blower you coudnt get 1108 if you pushed off a cliff
> its 1000 to 1020ish on its best [email protected]
> you just complained it struggle 2 days ago you would pick up 10% with 200 rpm nott
> ...


I never claimed it struggled...I stated an electronic governor would have been nice as to avoid droop

Nothing wrong with checking by hand..remove plug...line paddle up in chute....mark...mark crank at 12 0clock..ratchet on crank bolt...easy peasy.
For more accuracy you turn the engine several times to rotate the impeller about three or four times...then take engine revolutions and divide by impeller revolutions..its close enough...even if you are off by say a sixteenth of a turn on the crank for your figures...with 10 plus revolutions ...your 'margin of error' is less than an 1/160 turn...good enough for me.
If you are getting lower figures...needs a new belt.
The 3.25 ratio was with just a few hours on the machine so say Essentially a new belt and pulleys.
The MTDS are good enough for home usage...its the wide gap that has to be address for wet snow.
Mine throws fine...but I installed an impeller kit out of tire sidewalls...doesn't clog..just the corners of the bucket will build up..chute and impeller are not a problem. 
Will it keep up with 400 plus CCs in deep wet snow...I expect not...the bottle neck on these is actually the augers..snow piles up in front of you if you go to fast in deep snow on the MTDs ..turning it into a push plow ...but if the snow has just the right density it will make it back there anyway and toss that light crap with the best of em lol



Sent from my SM-A115U1 using Tapatalk


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## Shovel (Mar 26, 2019)

RC20 said:


> _Not according to Ariens, the Platinum 24 SHO is reported to move 73 tons of snow per hour for both the carb and EFI model
> ._


_
That's because both are being pulled down..The EFI model isn't producing maximum snow removal at 3600 rpm...a pull down sacrifice has to be made..it takes four times the power to double impeller rpm met with the same mass of snow.
Anyway it's official LOL ..Ariens own claim is both machines remove the SAME amount of snow performing full duty..No EFI for the win...But as I have been saying in lighter usage conditions it is able to do move more due to less droop ...few small percentage points at best ..but with noticeable increase in throw distance ..is it worth the price tag?..could be..but not in my case..I still opt for the lowly carb with the pesky choke and primer bulb..those extra five seconds a few times a year are less time than I would spend charging an exotic EFI Ariens multiple times a year.
These carb models seem to run a little lean anyway..so in the end I am better for the environment...carb for the win  lol



Sent from my SM-A115U1 using Tapatalk_


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## Six Pack (Jan 29, 2021)

Sam Am I said:


> The EFI batts in our Ariens are NiMh and rule of thumb for these types is that they'll self discharge(no load, just sitting on shelf) at a rate of around 2% per day.


They don't self discharge at this rate. I can leave the battery alone for a few months, and still start my machine.


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## Shovel (Mar 26, 2019)

Six Pack said:


> They don't self discharge at this rate. I can leave the battery alone for a few months, and still start my machine.


Will it get by with sitting say six months...that wouldn't be too bad.

Sent from my SM-A115U1 using Tapatalk


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

Shovel said:


> _That's because both are being pulled down..The EFI model isn't producing maximum snow removal at 3600 rpm...a pull down sacrifice has to be made..it takes four times the power to double impeller rpm met with the same mass of snow.
> Anyway it's official LOL ..Ariens own claim is both machines remove the SAME amount of snow performing full duty..No EFI for the win...But as I have been saying in lighter usage conditions it is able to do move more due to less droop ...few small percentage points at best ..but with noticeable increase in throw distance ..is it worth the price tag?..could be..but not in my case..I still opt for the lowly carb with the pesky choke and primer bulb..those extra five seconds a few times a year are less time than I would spend charging an exotic EFI Ariens multiple times a year.
> These carb models seem to run a little lean anyway..so in the end I am better for the environment...carb for the win  lol
> 
> ...


I assume that "charging multiple times per year" really means once, since it charges itself in the winter while in use?


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

Six Pack said:


> They don't self discharge at this rate. I can leave the battery alone for a few months, and still start my machine.


You don't need to be 100% charged to start. NiMh batteries have a pretty constant output current and voltage until discharged, and then drop off rapidly. All long as there is enough power to prime the fuel pump and power the ECU, it will start, and then geta power/charges from the stator.


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

Shovel said:


> Will it get by with sitting say six months...that wouldn't be too bad.
> 
> Sent from my SM-A115U1 using Tapatalk


Depends on age and condition of the battery - self discharge tends to increase with age. I would think a single charge at the beginning of snow season would suffice for the year. (Also depends on temp - cold batteries tend to put out less . . .). Also depends on the cell type they used - If one of the low self discharge types such as Eneloop, 6 months idle should leave it close to fully charged. Somehow, I suspect they went cheap and used inferior cells, though . . .


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## dagjohnsen56 (Dec 7, 2021)

tadawson said:


> Depends on age and condition of the battery - self discharge tends to increase with age. I would think a single charge at the beginning of snow season would suffice for the year. (Also depends on temp - cold batteries tend to put out less . . .). Also depends on the cell type they used - I one of the low self discharge types such as Eneloop, 6 months idle should leave it close to fully charged. Somehow, I suspect they went cheap and used inferior cells, though . . .


I plan to charge it 1 hour every month during winter and two times during summer. A good investment I believe, probably sloppy charging routines are the reason for a lot of so-called EFI problems. My machine is standing outside in a cold climate.


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## Shovel (Mar 26, 2019)

tadawson said:


> I assume that "charging multiple times per year" really means once, since it charges itself in the winter while in use?


Here the snow season is about three months..would be sitting the rest of the time..I have had to use mine only once so far this year..so nine months of sitting would be normal..I usually have to blow snow only a few times.four on the average would be a fair estimate..so my actual run time on average is four hours or less...Major reason I went cheap with my brand new MTD based craftsman for 400 bucks...as age will be the death before it actually wears out.

Sent from my SM-A115U1 using Tapatalk


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## Tseg (Jan 29, 2021)

Ok, Ok, the EFI advocates have convinced me... as soon as my 1 year old Honda HSS724AWD wears out I'll get an EFI model.


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## dagjohnsen56 (Dec 7, 2021)

Tseg said:


> Ok, Ok, the EFI advocates have convinced me... as soon as my 1 year old Honda HSS724AWD wears out I'll get an EFI model.


Funny It will outlive all of us. I have one carbed machine and one EFI. Like them both. No one is trying to convince anyone about anything. Sharing experience and discussing is good. I find it interesting to try different machines with different strengths and weaknesses. I aprechiate people that share real life experiences, this forum is a great place for a nerd like me to learn.
All the advice I get makes me enjoy my blowers even more. If you are handy with carbs I truly understand why you would want just that, fix it yourself.


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

dagjohnsen56 said:


> I plan to charge it 1 hour every month during winter and two times during summer. A good investment I believe, probably sloppy charging routines are the reason for a lot of so-called EFI problems. My machine is standing outside in a cold climate.


Do you use it much in the winter? If you do, it will charge when running . . . the monthly snow season charges seem pointless if in use . . .


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

Shovel said:


> Here the snow season is about three months..would be sitting the rest of the time..I have had to use mine only once so far this year..so nine months of sitting would be normal..I usually have to blow snow only a few times.four on the average would be a fair estimate..so my actual run time on average is four hours or less...Major reason I went cheap with my brand new MTD based craftsman for 400 bucks...as age will be the death before it actually wears out.
> 
> Sent from my SM-A115U1 using Tapatalk


Makes sense then . . . I always clarify, since in my snow area, using a blower several times a week for 4 months or so is not atypical . . .


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## dagjohnsen56 (Dec 7, 2021)

tadawson said:


> Do you use it much in the winter? If you do, it will charge when running . . . the monthly snow season charges seem pointless if in use . . .


Well could be. But standing outside in real cold weather makes me think a battery wants some help and it is so easy to charge it. It can be standing for two or three weeks sometimes without me being there. Will one hour of charging hurt then?


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

Won't hurt the battery, but may loosen up the connector. If it was me, I'd charge only as needed, and let the machine charge itself otherwise. Depends on duration of use, frequency of use, etc . . .


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## dagjohnsen56 (Dec 7, 2021)

tadawson said:


> Won't hurt the battery, but may loosen up the connector. If it was me, I'd charge only as needed, and let the machine charge itself otherwise. Depends on duration of use, frequency of use, etc . . .


Connector seems like it will hold up well being used.


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## Sam Am I (Oct 28, 2021)

dagjohnsen56 said:


> Connector seems like it will hold up well being used.


I had to switch mine out, maybe I got a bad one? BUT it was so loose that the batt wasn't charging properly and she died because it wasn't charging properly when running.

You really don't need to worry too much in winter if you run it say 10-15 mins per month at a minimum, that'll keep the batt well topped off just fine.

Just longer term storage, say 6 months and the rule of thumb of 2%/day loss BUT Six Pack says he leaves his all summer("months") and it's fine.....This might imply Ariens is using *"Low self discharge NiMH" *where the batts have lower capacity, BUT they should still be at around 70-80% charged after a year stored @ 70F

Some others here however have reported "no start" at first of year found that their batts were being too low and was the cause, maybe old batts, older tech standard types NiMh? IDK.......,but personally, I'll be leaving mine on a timer for storage (8/9 months) that only comes on once for say 24hr/month (**maybe on 24hr/2 month, see below), this isn't going to hurt, nor "over charge" the batt with the type of charger Ariens provides if "off in less than 48hrs" and I can just forget about it....

**BTW, Ariens recommends "Battery should be charged every 3 months while in storage",


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## dagjohnsen56 (Dec 7, 2021)

Sam Am I said:


> I had to switch mine out, maybe I got a bad one? BUT it was so loose that the batt wasn't charging properly and she died because it wasn't not charging properly when running.
> 
> You really don't need to worry too much in winter if you run it say 10-15 mins per month at a minimum, that'll keep the batt well topped off just fine.
> 
> ...


thanks for the input!


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## Six Pack (Jan 29, 2021)

Shovel said:


> Will it get by with sitting say six months...that wouldn't be too bad.
> 
> Sent from my SM-A115U1 using Tapatalk


I do know that after nine months without a charge, my machine will not start, but the pump will still weakly try to prime the system. I haven't tried after six months without charge, but it might start with a battery that's in good condition. I usually throw the charger on every three months or so (which Ariens recommends), and I have not had a problem.


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## dagjohnsen56 (Dec 7, 2021)

Six Pack said:


> I do know that after nine months without a charge, my machine will not start, but the pump will still weakly try to prime the system. I haven't tried after six months without charge, but it might start with a battery that's in good condition. I usually throw the charger on every three months or so (which Ariens recommends), and I have not had a problem.


Do you store your machine outside?

Dag


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## Six Pack (Jan 29, 2021)

dagjohnsen56 said:


> Do you store your machine outside?
> 
> Dag


No. It's stored in my unheated shop.

Although the nine month test was when it was at the dealer for nine months for warranty work (fuel tank was leaking, and it apparently takes that long to source a new one from China), so it sat outside there for eight hours a day, 40 hours a week all through spring, summer, and fall without getting charged up.


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## Midnightpromises (Jan 27, 2020)

Six Pack said:


> No. It's stored in my unheated shop.
> 
> Although the nine month test was when it was at the dealer for nine months for warranty work (fuel tank was leaking, and it apparently takes that long to source a new one from China), so it sat outside there for eight hours a day, 40 hours a week all through spring, summer, and fall without getting charged up.


At least they brought it back into the shop overnight.


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## burt8810 (Nov 28, 2019)

> A mechanical governor system has “droop”. While efi has no droop


Any speed regulating system, mechanical, electrical, hydraulic, etc., must have an "error" i.e. "droop" to cause the regulation. If the set point (what you want the output to be) is 2500rpm and the output speed is 2500rpm then the error is 0. If a heavier load is placed on the output the output speed will tend to decrease thus creating an error. This error produces an action to return the output speed to the set point speed. The change in throttle position and fuel will both be changed with an efi system. In a mechanical system only the throttle position will be changed. There will be increased fuel flow because of venturi action in the carb. There must be an error, in either system, to bring about the change. If there was no change in error what would cause a change? Without a rather sophisticated control system involving PID (Proportional, Integral, Differential) calculations, or at a minimum just PI calculations there has to be an increase in the error thus in either system (carb, efi) there is going to be droop. It is doubtful D would be left out as this allows for quicker response. I have no first hand knowledge of small engine efi systems but the physics of control systems still apply.
My $0.02 on the subject.
Herb


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## dagjohnsen56 (Dec 7, 2021)

burt8810 said:


> Any speed regulating system, mechanical, electrical, hydraulic, etc., must have an "error" i.e. "droop" to cause the regulation. If the set point (what you want the output to be) is 2500rpm and the output speed is 2500rpm then the error is 0. If a heavier load is placed on the output the output speed will tend to decrease thus creating an error. This error produces an action to return the output speed to the set point speed. The change in throttle position and fuel will both be changed with an efi system. In a mechanical system only the throttle position will be changed. There will be increased fuel flow because of venturi action in the carb. There must be an error, in either system, to bring about the change. If there was no change in error what would cause a change? Without a rather sophisticated control system involving PID (Proportional, Integral, Differential) calculations, or at a minimum just PI calculations there has to be an increase in the error thus in either system (carb, efi) there is going to be droop. It is doubtful D would be left out as this allows for quicker response. I have no first hand knowledge of small engine efi systems but the physics of control systems still apply.
> My $0.02 on the subject.
> Herb


We who have used both does not wonder if there are a difference. The difference is obvious, droop with EFI are almost non existent.


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## 1132le (Feb 23, 2017)

dagjohnsen56 said:


> We who have used both does not wonder if there are a difference. The difference is obvious, droop with EFI are almost non existent.
> 
> Its more the droop
> droop is the sugar added to the coffee
> ...


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

dagjohnsen56 said:


> We who have used both does not wonder if there are a difference. The difference is obvious, droop with EFI are almost non existent.


You are both correct in that the mechanical requires a lot more droop to react and not surge, whereas the EFI/electronic gov can be far more sensitive (less droop) but also damped to prevent surging. To make a long story short, electronic is far more sophisticated that flyweights, wires, and springs (and associated friction).


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## ChrisJ (Nov 27, 2014)

You can't have an electronic governor "balls out".

Just saying...


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

ChrisJ said:


> You can't have an electronic governor "balls out".
> 
> Just saying...
> 
> ...


I just don't want to be there if that one ever goes "balls to the wall"!


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## ChrisJ (Nov 27, 2014)

tadawson said:


> I just don't want to be there if that one ever goes "balls to the wall"!


I wonder if that's ever actually happened....


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## RC20 (Dec 4, 2019)

_Any speed regulating system, mechanical, electrical, hydraulic, etc., must have an "error" i.e. "droop" to cause the regulatio_n. If the set point (what you want the output to be) is 2500rpm and the output speed is 2500rpm then the error is 0. 

That is the wrong way to look at it. What we have is Setpoint. 2500 rpm in the example. 

Now, there are quite a number of terms for droop, slip, proportional (at one time from various controls type I had a library of 5 as I recall).

What an Electronic Governor does is RETURN the engine speed to setpoint. Its not that you can't cause a 100 rpm drop, but it gives max throttle to get back to setpoint of 2500.

The caveat is its not magic, it does not created torque. If the conditions overload the engine such that even max throttle is not enough, you will have drop, speed offset, bias etc. 

Its not an error as its expected. The wonders of electronics makes it easy to build a governor that at least tries to get back to setpoint.

A Generator with Isocronous Govenr (ther we go again, it does not mean eleconic though usualy) - is set at 1800 rpm.
Say we have a 600KW generator (a common size). You dump a 500 kw load on it. Yes it will drop off 50-100 rpm, but then it takes it back to 1800. 600 KW load as the bog down may be too much to recover from (depends on the injection system and response and any power reserve). Somewhere over 600 KW it will take a permanent offset and your Hertz stay below 60. Motors do not like that. They burn up. Or it just keeps dropping and stall the engine. 







a


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## tabora (Mar 1, 2017)

tadawson said:


> You can't have an electronic governor "balls out".





ChrisJ said:


> I wonder if that's ever actually happened....


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## 1132le (Feb 23, 2017)

RC20 said:


> _Any speed regulating system, mechanical, electrical, hydraulic, etc., must have an "error" i.e. "droop" to cause the regulatio_n. If the set point (what you want the output to be) is 2500rpm and the output speed is 2500rpm then the error is 0.
> 
> That is the wrong way to look at it. What we have is Setpoint. 2500 rpm in the example.
> 
> ...


the efi adjusting the air/fuel as it does holds the torque not creates it the carb loses torque its not debateable 1st hand use
the already lean epa carb falls on its face
i use a modded 414cc stout motor
ive used 35 or more blowers on the same driveway for 40 plus yrs
iam telling you the efi has more power @3600 i was shocked
walked right through heavy wet snow the carbed would have clogged or slower down big time
if iam using a 12.5 hp engine you dont think i know what power is when a 306 runs like that
40 plus yrs blowing snow
more?


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## tabora (Mar 1, 2017)

1132le said:


> iam telling you





1132le said:


> you dont think i know what power is


Dude, tone it down a little... As Scott says, steady on...


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## RC20 (Dec 4, 2019)

ChrisJ said:


> You can't have an electronic governor "balls out".
> 
> Just saying...
> 
> ...


Now that is a set of Balls. Aka, Flyball Governor.


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## ChrisJ (Nov 27, 2014)

I think I know what the problem is.

All of these guys were just so used to Tecumseh's poor running engines and their inflated power numbers they can't believe how good and strong a real engine runs.

That's whats happening


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## RC20 (Dec 4, 2019)

Ran Tecumseh for a lot of years and never an issue though they were older models.


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## ChrisJ (Nov 27, 2014)

RC20 said:


> Ran Tecumseh for a lot of years and never an issue though they were older models.


I personally can't stand them but that was mainly a joke.


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## JJG723 (Mar 7, 2015)

ChrisJ said:


> I personally can't stand them but that was mainly a joke.


I laughed 😂.


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## RC20 (Dec 4, 2019)

I ran a Toro that was 25 years old when I sold it ($50!). Never an issue.

Work had a JD 24 or 28 inch, T engine and never an issue. Brother had a Toro, same. 

Maybe latter ones were bad but back in the 80s to the early 2000s solid engine at least for snow blowers.


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## ChrisJ (Nov 27, 2014)

RC20 said:


> I ran a Toro that was 25 years old when I sold it ($50!). Never an issue.
> 
> Work had a JD 24 or 28 inch, T engine and never an issue. Brother had a Toro, same.
> 
> Maybe latter ones were bad but back in the 80s to the early 2000s solid engine at least for snow blowers.


My history with them goes back to at least 1984.
I guess it depends on your expectations. I've never said they didn't run or that they weren't reliable.

Their motto should've been "Good enough".


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