# Two part epoxy primer, paint and clear coat experiences?



## YSHSfan (Jun 25, 2014)

Hello everyone,

I have several snowblowers that I would like to bring back into usable to restored conditions besides some modifications, but I am starting to think about the best way to prep and paint them (so that I will do it only once and it will de durable).

I've read a few post suggesting the use of two part epoxy since it it supposed to turn into a very hard paint that is supposed to withstand the weather conditions.

I don't mind spending twice or three times the money on epoxy paint versus standard paint if I know for fact that I will be much better and last a lot longer (the labor will be the same anyways).

I'm looking into durability even if I have to sacrifice the finish a bit.

Waiting to hear your experiences.


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## 94EG8 (Feb 13, 2014)

Two part epoxy is the only thing that really works. Mix it, reduce it a bit and spray it through a gun. Just make sure you wear a paint respirator. It is the real deal though, you may see paint flake off the epoxy, but the epoxy itself will stay there forever, you literally can't beat it off with a hammer. For something like a snowblower I'd paint over the epoxy with single stage urethane (something like U-tech is great) If using single stage there's no need for clear, and honestly for something like a snowblower, especially in a solid color there's no need for base/clear.

Also, make sure you sandblast first, a wire brush does not working for getting rust off before paint no matter how many times broke people try to say that it does. I've been broke, I've done the wire brush thing, it does not work.


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## E350 (Apr 21, 2015)

*94EG8*: What do you think about using phosphoric acid to remove rust prior to painting?

Can we get by with this for $19 from Harbor Freight?










http://www.harborfreight.com/21-oz-hopper-gravity-feed-spot-blaster-gun-95793.html


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## YSHSfan (Jun 25, 2014)

_*94EG8*,_

What do you think about this eastwood epoxy primer spray paint can?

Eastwood's 2K AeroSpray™ Epoxy Primer Gray


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## 94EG8 (Feb 13, 2014)

Phosphoric acid doesn't really remove rust, it just converts it to iron phosphate. Sandblasting (or soda blasting) is really the only way to truly remove rust.

You _can_ get by with a blaster like that but it will take forever unless you have almost no rust to start with. Mostly because the reservoir is so tiny, you can get a handheld siphon feed blaster that has a hose that goes into your bag of sand or a bucket for about the same price that will work much better. You can also rent a commercial grade unit pretty cheap for a day or a weekend.

Side note: You need a pretty decent a compressor to run a sandblaster. My 5hp, twin cylinder, 220v, 60 gallon single stage compressor would never shut off. It would sort of keep up in that I _could_ keep running for as long as I wanted but it was really more than the compressor was designed for. My current 5hp, 60 gallon, twin cylinder, 2 stage will shut off, but it doesn't stay off long between cycles. Also, make sure you at the very least have one of those cheap inline water separators as if there's moisture in the line it will make the sand clump in the sandblaster hose and clog.


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## E350 (Apr 21, 2015)

*94EG8*:


94EG8 said:


> Phosphoric acid doesn't really remove rust, it just converts it to iron phosphate.


Well that explains a lot. For light rust the phosphoric acid gives me shiny metal with a tint of black/charcoal grey. For heavy rust it gives a black surface which I am assuming is iron phosphate.

How about using a knotted wire wheel or other wire wheel or wire cup on a angle grinder? 

I guess what I am asking is, if we get the metal visibly shiny are we good to go with epoxy or must there be an actual blasting process to get into the pores (?) of the metal?

Also do you recommend an epoxy primer before the epoxy top coat or is it unnecessary?

I recently started using epoxy resin instead of polyester resin for some fiberglass jobs (I recently did two shower pans) and once you get used to it, it is pretty good to work with two part epoxy products, but I have never sprayed 2-part epoxy paint. 

And yes, I am aware that inhaling an epoxy paint can coat your lungs so bad as to kill you. So that a respirator is required.


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## UNDERTAKER (Dec 30, 2013)

just sand down the rust with 80 grit paper then move up the scale. use self etching primer. any brand will do. have you looked at POR-15 HARDNOSE PAINT. you just pour in the hardener to the color. then brush it on. it may not look perfect. but the stuff is BULLET PROOF.:yahoo::yahoo::yahoo::yahoo::yahoo:


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## E350 (Apr 21, 2015)

*94EG8*: *Powershift93* has a good point. Wouldn't a belt sander with 80 grit do just as good as a sandblaster? Or is there a preferred type of surface which only a sandblaster can achieve?


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## UNDERTAKER (Dec 30, 2013)

E350 said:


> *94EG8*: *Powershift93* has a good point. Wouldn't a belt sander with 80 grit do just as good as a sandblaster? Or is there a preferred type of surface which only a sandblaster can achieve?


 a sandblaster can get into tight spots better. but the end result is the same.:emoticon-south-park


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## 94EG8 (Feb 13, 2014)

hsblowersfan said:


> _*94EG8*,_
> 
> What do you think about this eastwood epoxy primer spray paint can?
> 
> Eastwood's 2K AeroSpray™ Epoxy Primer Gray


I don't think much of any epoxy primer in a spray can, none of them have a proper hardener in them since they'll harden in the can before you can use them. They only stuff that really, truly works comes as a two part system that you mix, reduce and spray through a gun.



E350 said:


> *94EG8*: How about using a knotted wire wheel or other wire wheel or wire cup on a angle grinder?
> 
> I guess what I am asking is, if we get the metal visibly shiny are we good to go with epoxy or must there be an actual blasting process to get into the pores (?) of the metal?


You need to sandblast. No wire wheel will ever get all the rust, but a sandblaster will. Plus you'll end up with a super shiny, almost polished surface in places, which doesn't provide much of a surface for the primer to adhere to.



E350 said:


> Also do you recommend an epoxy primer before the epoxy top coat or is it unnecessary?


I've never used, nor do I believe you need an epoxy top coat. Just single stage automotive urethane paint, or even old acrylic enamel.



E350 said:


> *94EG8*: *Powershift93* has a good point. Wouldn't a belt sander with 80 grit do just as good as a sandblaster? Or is there a preferred type of surface which only a sandblaster can achieve?


A belt sander just wont do what a sandblaster will. There really isn't a way around sandblasting if you want your hard work to last.

Also I didn't mention this, but you want to put your epoxy primer on almost immediately after sandblasting. You'll start seeing tiny rust spots forming again within less than half an hour sometimes depending on the humidity and how much water is coming out of the sandblaster.


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## E350 (Apr 21, 2015)

*94EG8*: I get it. Not only would a wire wheel/cup or belt sander reduce the existing "tooth" which is exactly opposite of what you want for primer adhesion, the sandblaster actually creates additional "tooth" by pitting the metal. I will probably try this H.F. model because my projects are Rustoleum-small, but I would like to start using 2-part epoxy instead of Rustoleum in the quart can.











It is small enough that my compressor may drive it. And until I get the compressor I really want, I have more time than money. I will report back how it works, if and when I buy/use it.

Thank you for your detailed no nonsense explanations. Makes sense to me...


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## AL- (Oct 27, 2014)

If your metal surface is more than surface rust you will have pitted rust holes, some may be deeper than others. If you don't get all the rust off no matter what you coat it with if there is rust underneath it will continue to work and grow in the existing steel, however maybe slowly over time with a small amount of rust. Any form of rust removal ( sandblasting or wire brush) wears off some good metal in order to get to the bottom of the deeper pitts., If you try a wire wheel brush and use a strong magnifying glass you will understand how this works and will see the deeper rust pitts nearly invisible to the naked eye. With snow blowers because they have welded seams, are bolted together and viberate a lot it may be nearly impossible to get all the rust off and the next best option is to keep them as rust free as possible, painted annually with touch ups and coated with grease and oil in the more prone areas (which stops rusting). . An exposed wet metal surface is the worst case scenario for rusting metal. Wax also helps protect a painted surface . Grease and oil have a creeping action that gets into any open seams. With regular maintenance your snow blower will last a long time.


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## 94EG8 (Feb 13, 2014)

E350 said:


> *94EG8*: I get it. Not only would a wire wheel/cup or belt sander reduce the existing "tooth" which is exactly opposite of what you want for primer adhesion, the sandblaster actually creates additional "tooth" by pitting the metal.


Exactly.



E350 said:


> I will probably try this H.F. model because my projects are Rustoleum-small, but I would like to start using 2-part epoxy instead of Rustoleum in the quart can.


It will work, but again you'll spend a lot of time filling it. I don't think most people fully appreciate how quickly you go through sand. I really prefer this style: Siphon Feed Abrasive Blasting Gun | Princess Auto, and they're still quite cheap at $19, and that's over here in Canada.



E350 said:


> It is small enough that my compressor may drive it. And until I get the compressor I really want, I have more time than money. I will report back how it works, if and when I buy/use it.


How big is your compressor?



E350 said:


> Thank you for your detailed no nonsense explanations. Makes sense to me...


You're welcome.


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## E350 (Apr 21, 2015)

*94EG8*: It is a Ridgid (Home Depot) two tank used primarily for running nail guns. Here are the specs off of my compressor:

6.2 CFSM @ 90 PSI
4.5 Gal
150 Max PSI

My snowblower is not my current painting project. I have a 42" Gannon Earthcavator which I need to paint. It is basically a box scraper which is towed behind a garden tractor which flips one way to run forwards another way to run backwards and also flips to rip dirt with five 6" scarifiers (teeth). It is thick steel and has a lot of life in it, which will be preserved especially if I can paint it. I was planning on painting it with yellow Rustoleum, but I did a shower pan with epoxy resin this Summer and I am very impressed with epoxy. 

If the sand blasting gun you linked is the one for me to buy. I will buy it. 

Any recommendations for cheap (even a small detail) paint gun would be appreciated.

And any suggestions for what make and model epoxy paint and reducer would be appreciated. 

Like probably many on this forum, I have been painting things for years. Doing a pretty good job. But I would like to raise my game and try epoxy.

Again. Thanks. Reps sent your way.


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## 94EG8 (Feb 13, 2014)

E350 said:


> *94EG8*: It is a Ridgid (Home Depot) two tank used primarily for running nail guns. Here are the specs off of my compressor:
> 
> 6.2 CFSM @ 90 PSI
> 4.5 Gal
> 150 Max PSI


That's a pretty small compressor, but you might get away with it if you're just doing small spots here and there. If you're planning to blast the whole thing then no, that poor little compressor will die trying to keep up. That blaster is rated for 4cfm, but I know from experience they take a lot of air.



E350 said:


> If the sand blasting gun you linked is the one for me to buy. I will buy it.


Well, that one is from Princess auto so it's Canadian, but I'm sure Harbor Freight has something similar. 

I'd give you recommendations on the other stuff, but again, Canadian so they wont help you much.


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## Dave C (Jan 26, 2015)

94EG8 said:


> I don't think much of any epoxy primer in a spray can, none of them have a proper hardener in them since they'll harden in the can before you can use them. They only stuff that really, truly works comes as a two part system that you mix, reduce and spray through a gun.


Take a look at the one in the Eastwood link - it does have a proper hardener. They make the rattle can with a button on the bottom. Push the button and it releases the hardener into the paint. Once mixed you have to use it up before it hardens, but it's a viable technology for delivering 2K primers nowadays.


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## YSHSfan (Jun 25, 2014)

Are the epoxy 2 part primer and urethane paints brake clean resistant?


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## YSHSfan (Jun 25, 2014)

After sandblasting, how do you clean and prepare the part for epoxy primering it?


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## 94EG8 (Feb 13, 2014)

hsblowersfan said:


> Are the epoxy 2 part primer and urethane paints brake clean resistant?


I believe epoxy is once it cures. I'm not so sure about urethane, but I believe so. I can tell you Honda used single stage urethane on solid color ridgelines and civics (the plastic bumpers are base clear, but the body is single stage) so it should be reasonably resistant to brake clean.



hsblowersfan said:


> After sandblasting, how do you clean and prepare the part for epoxy primering it?


Blow the surface off with compressed air, wipe the surface with something like Final Wash.


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## TheSuMofGoD (Feb 27, 2015)

I'm a paint salesman, have been since 1992. Run of the mill products such as Rustoleum demand little to no respect in my industry, but fill a box store, hardware stores needs for the average DIYer.

Use this:

Polyamide Epoxy V400,

This stuff won't be cheap, (I'm guessing U.S retail $140.00 to $180.00 per kit) but it's intended use is in the industrial high performance and maintenance industry. This is what the local municipality puts on their 5 tonne snow removal and construction equipment. 

Usually available from your local Benjamin Moore Dealer.


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## E350 (Apr 21, 2015)

*hs*: IMHO, pick a system (urethane or epoxy) and stick with it for that project. The primer product should say what top coat to use and the top coat should say what primer to use. I am not sure I am using the term "top coat" correctly. What I mean is the coat which follows the primer.


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## YSHSfan (Jun 25, 2014)

Are 2 part epoxy primer and urethane paints somewhat heat resistant or not at all?


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## UNDERTAKER (Dec 30, 2013)

I painted THE BROTHERS OF DESTRUCTION with POR-15 HARDNOSE gloss black paint. I took them both down to bare metal using sandpaper and stripper. I then used rattle bomb can or whatever the latest lingo for spray can paint is here. used self etching primer. up here in the frozen tundra they have been taken to the 4 corners of ELL. and returned untouched by it all. they tell you to use a brush to put it on. it may not be perfect. but when it is 20 below temp. and the wind makes it a feel like 50 below. I never hear any one say totes gross paint job dude. after I have plowed them out.:smiley-char060::smiley-char060::icon-woo::icon-woo::emoticon-south-park


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## YSHSfan (Jun 25, 2014)

I think I may go the route of sandblasting (I have a pressure pot type blaster), cleaning, priming with 2 part epoxy primer and a top coat of urethane paint.
I would start with an auger housing and chute of a Yamaha YS828.
Should I go with one coat or two coats of primer and top coat?
What would be the wait time betwen coats and between primer and top coats?
Recommendation on a inexpensive spray gun that would give me a decent finish (we have a Saylor Beall 80gal 5HP compressor, I believe it producess about 15-20cfm).
I am planing on using 2 water separators in line.
I've heard about not using a rubber hose after the water separator since it can trap moisture, shoud I use a plastic line?
The most important thing, What kind of safety protection should I wear?
We have a large extractor fan on a dedicated bay at work (I belive the place used to be a bodyshop, and this area was for painting-perhaps a paint boot was fitted in the past), there is where I am planning on doing the paint work.
Also I am thinking of making a turn table, would this make the painting any easier? :smiley-confused009: :smiley-confused009: :smiley-confused009:


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## 94EG8 (Feb 13, 2014)

hsblowersfan said:


> Should I go with one coat or two coats of primer and top coat?


One coat of epoxy is generally fine.



hsblowersfan said:


> What would be the wait time betwen coats and between primer and top coats?


I'd let it sit 24 hours between spraying epoxy and painting (you really don't need to wait nearly that long, but it really doesn't hurt) Between top coats the paint manufacturer will tell you you. For base clear you usually want about 10 minutes between coats. Urethane I'm not sure.



hsblowersfan said:


> Recommendation on a inexpensive spray gun that would give me a decent finish (we have a Saylor Beall 80gal 5HP compressor, I believe it producess about 15-20cfm).


You don't need much of a gun for spraying epoxy. I use a cheap Powerfist (Princess Auto) HVLP gun that retails for about $60 (I got mine on sale for $18) Pro-Tek also makes a pretty decent gun for a reasonable price.



hsblowersfan said:


> I am planing on using 2 water separators in line.
> I've heard about not using a rubber hose after the water separator since it can trap moisture, shoud I use a plastic line?


Everyone uses rubber line after the separator. Pretty hard to get enough flex in a plastic line to operate a paint gun. Just make sure you drain your filters before you start spraying and use a gun filter (like so: http://www.amazon.com/Motor-Guard-D-12-1-Disposable-Filter/dp/B003TQIKNQ)



hsblowersfan said:


> The most important thing, What kind of safety protection should I wear?
> We have a large extractor fan on a dedicated bay at work (I belive the place used to be a bodyshop, and this area was for painting-perhaps a paint boot was fitted in the past), there is where I am planning on doing the paint work.


Use a paint respirator. Something with replaceable filters. I'd really stongly suggest some sort of a paint suit too.


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## YSHSfan (Jun 25, 2014)

Thank you _*94EG8*_.

Few more questions, should I scuff the epoxy primer before the top coat? and what should I use for that purpose?


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## 94EG8 (Feb 13, 2014)

hsblowersfan said:


> Thank you _*94EG8*_.


You're welcome



hsblowersfan said:


> should I scuff the epoxy primer before the top coat?


If you let it sit more than week you'll have to. If you paint it right away it's not so necessary.



hsblowersfan said:


> and what should I use for that purpose?


A maroon Scotch-brite/Bear-tex pad.



Also, an aftercooler helps a lot in terms of preventing water. A proper store bought unit is pretty expensive ($900+) but they aren't that hard to make from something like an old AC condenser and a fan, or even copper pipe and fan. I'm pretty sure if you check garagejournal.com they have some ideas and diy stuff on them.


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## YSHSfan (Jun 25, 2014)

Can Epoxy primer and Urethane paints be brushed on?, or is using a spay gun the only way you can do it?


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## Kiss4aFrog (Nov 3, 2013)

If you're going to paint much stuff you might also want to use a specific hose only for painting and store it the rest of the time.
Get another hose to air up tires, use air tools and whatever else but keep one hose that's only used for paint. Cuts down on the chance of anything making it to the gun and interfering with your paint.

The little at the gun filters are nice insurance too even if you have one or two big separators in the line.
The orange lump in the photo. They are about [email protected]$7 depending on where you get them.


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## YSHSfan (Jun 25, 2014)

I found some info on line that states that you can use a brush or a roller to do that, you should just not use a reducer to keep the paint "thick". On the other hand they just keep warning about the proper safety gear to use even if you are not spraying it.

I'll keep you posted on what I had decided to do.


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## Golfergordy (Oct 29, 2014)

I appreciate all the comments I've read so far in this thread. I agree that sandblasting is the best way to prepare a ferris metal surface for painting, and that epoxy paint is probably the best to use. With that said, here's what I did this summer to my Honda HS621 single stage SB which is 15-yrs old: 1st of all, the auger on this SB had rust on it, but the steel is so thick that it looked like it would still last another 50-yrs if nothing more were ever done to protect it. But still, I wanted it to look unrusty, so I removed the auger and stripped off the rubber, and sanded, wire brushed, power abrasive wheel ground, and power wire wheel cleaned it as good as I could get it. There was obviously still some rust there that only sand blasting could remove. Next, I brush painted onto the auger a paint I had sitting on the shelf in my basement - it was HAMMERITE Rust Cap, which the label says encapsulates rust. This paint was white, and I was after a black finish, so for the finish coat I brushed on another paint I had on the shelf, called RUST-OLEUM ULTRA COVER. The inside of the chute also had a little surface rust, so I sanded it as good as I could get it, and used the same HAMMERITE paint for the 1st coat, and for the finish coat I used a Krylon (with CoverMAX) spray can of glossy red (approx. 5-coats) which closely matched the standard Honda red. Ask me next March how these paints worked out.


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## E350 (Apr 21, 2015)

*hsblowersfan*: What did you end up doing?

*Guys*, I am putting together my little painting system. Please make recommendations for additions, deletions and changes.

Ridgid Air Compressor (which I already own and which is used for nail guns)
6.2 SCFM @ 90 PSI
4.5 Gal.
150 Max PSI

H.F. Oil Water Separator
Oil/Water Separator



Desiccant Dryer/Filter 
3/8" Desiccant Dryer with Oil Removal Filter


Motor Guard D-12-1 Disposable Spray Gun Filter






4 oz. HVLP Touch Up Air Spray Gun 
(Average air consumption 3.2 to 5.6 CFM @ 43 PSI 
Working pressure (psi) 40 PSI )
HVLP Touch Up Spray Gun


Any suggestions for different or additional components would be greatly appreciated.

I have also been told that adding a 7 gal. Portable Air Tank to increase air volume for my little compressor:
Aluminum Air Tank - 7 Gallon


But it seems to me that adding another cannister cannot increase volume at the required minimum psi, can it?


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## YSHSfan (Jun 25, 2014)

E350 said:


> *hsblowersfan*: What did you end up doing*?*


E350, I haven't gotten around that stage yet, I'll keep you posted if I go that route.


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