# Small engines EFI kits



## YSHSfan (Jun 25, 2014)

The introduction anouncement of the first Ariens snowblowers with EFI to the market made me remember that I had seen EFI conversion kits for small engines in the past year or two (they are not cheap....!).
Perhaps this is the technology (or something similar) 
that Aries is using (throtle body injection) on their EFI engines.

Small Engine Fuel Injection Kit - Small Engine EFI conversion kit


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## sscotsman (Dec 8, 2010)

The "USB connectivity" and software is interesting!
When I hear "Electronic Fuel Injection" I think "electronics" but not necessarily "computer controlled"..I know cars now have computers running everything, including the EFI system, but I would have never imagined any computer interface for EFI on a snowblower engine! I would have thought "electronic" meant just a circuit board or something..

Are we really talking about a computer interface for snowblowers??
if so, thats way beyond anything I was picturing..

Scot


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## caddydaddy (Dec 10, 2014)

Wow, $600 would buy a LOT of fuel for a small engine!


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## guyl (Jun 12, 2016)

I'd much rather have a WiFi capable snowblower than USB!


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## E350 (Apr 21, 2015)

There is a really interesting thread somewhere on the pwctoday.com jet ski forum about a guy who rigged up EFI for a 1970-80's 2-stroke stand up jet ski* 

And he got it running well IIRC but had to use two batteries, because the stator output was too low to power the electric fuel pump. And to keep it running for a fun day on the water he would have to periodically come in and replace his batteries with two fully charged ones. 

But it was an interesting endeavor to read nonetheless. *hblowersfan* I subscribed to that thread and can dig it up and post the link if you are thinking about fooling around with a EFI conversion.

Personally I hate it on small engines. They are even doing some crazy things like "auto-tune" on chain saws. Really? I want to be deep in the woods with equipment or half-way through a cut on a standing tree (I cable everything) or maybe even up in a tree and have that crap fail? Some engines have to just work to avoid posing a hazard to life and limb. 

You want to be in the middle of a street or at EOD with Caltrans coming by scraping and blowing and throwing heavy wet snow at you or take out you and your snow blower when your tracked machine won't run and won't manually "roll"? 

Some engines don't need to be too clean. They just need to work. Or they pose a hazard. 


* "_I'll quit before I sit..."_


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## ELaw (Feb 4, 2015)

sscotsman said:


> The "USB connectivity" and software is interesting!
> 
> Are we really talking about a computer interface for snowblowers??


Yep!

But the USB (or bluetooth or otherwise) connected computer usually isn't the actual "brain" of the FI system. The system has its own CPU, but a PC can connect to it, and is used to monitor and change the settings, like ignition and fuel maps, idle regulation, and whatever other features the FI unit has. 
The PC usually can also be used for datalogging, so you can see how your engine is doing.


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## ELaw (Feb 4, 2015)

hsblowersfan said:


> The introduction anouncement of the first Ariens snowblowers with EFI to the market made me remember that I had seen EFI conversion kits for small engines in the past year or two (they are not cheap....!).
> Perhaps this is the technology (or something similar)
> that Aries is using (throtle body injection) on their EFI engines.


The Ecotrons stuff is interesting, although as another posted indicated, somewhat pricey (relative to the value of the engine).

I'm not sure if their ECU is proprietary but otherwise it looks like they've just assembled a collection of off-the-shelf FI components designed for other small engines, like motorcycles, ATVs, etc.

I was searching for info on systems like this a while back and came across this thing called "PicoSpray": The $20 Device to Replace Dirty Carburetors

There's a video with more information here: 




But it doesn't look like that product ever went anywhere.


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## YSHSfan (Jun 25, 2014)

The kit is pricey no doubt (I think if buying wholesale would be much cheaper), but what I found somewhat interesting is that there is one model that they state would only be sold to OEM, which leads me to believe that one or some of the OEM must be using their kits. :blush:


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## stromr (Jul 20, 2016)

*not buying it...*



ELaw said:


> The Ecotrons stuff is interesting, although as another posted indicated, somewhat pricey (relative to the value of the engine).
> 
> I'm not sure if their ECU is proprietary but otherwise it looks like they've just assembled a collection of off-the-shelf FI components designed for other small engines, like motorcycles, ATVs, etc.
> 
> ...




I've been involved in the motorcycle industry for most of my adult life and just don't buy his allegation that bikes pollute as much or more than cars now that 4 strokes have become the norm. Maybe overseas where they still run a lot of 2 cycles but not here. The government in California would be surprised to hear this also since they give street bikes a break on some of the EPA regs.
Also I'm skeptical of the lack of sensors. Even in a basic EFI system used in racing where exhaust emissions are not a concern you'll usually have an ECU to calculate the air flow thru the throttle body (MAF) and a TPS (throttle position sensor). Once you've measured the air flow at a given degree of throttle plate opening then you have to know the temp of the intake air and the temp of the engine itself or it's coolant along with the engine rpm. While these systems are not very complicated things really get interesting when you add in exhaust emissions.
Today's average street bike is extremely precise in it's fuel metering and some shade tree mechanic with his laptop usually does them more harm than good winding up with a bike that can't pass inspection or just makes more noise than power.
The interesting thing for us on the forum will be when we start to see the effects on fuel economy. It's going to be a win-win when the small engine manufacturers go to EFI for exhaust emissions and we get better fuel economy.
Still even though Ariens says they've got thousands of hours of testing done I'm still going to wait for the enviable bugs to get ironed out in real world use before I buy one.


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## Kielbasa (Dec 21, 2013)

Yes... maybe about 12 years worth for me. 



caddydaddy said:


> Wow, $600 would buy a LOT of fuel for a small engine!


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## stromr (Jul 20, 2016)

*????*



Kielbasa said:


> Yes... maybe about 12 years worth for me.


How much kielbasa???


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## YSHSfan (Jun 25, 2014)

stromr said:


> How much kielbasa???


$600 I think that is what he is referring to...... :blush:


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## Jackmels (Feb 18, 2013)

I'd rather buy 5 or 6(pending on sale price) harbor freight engines instead.


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## db9938 (Nov 17, 2013)

I don't know. It is interesting, but I think that it adds cost and complexity to something that has been answered with natural aspiration. I understand that it is a superior method of fuel delivery, but by how much and at what cost?

And while, most of our issues are often resolved with relatively inexpensive parts, or in some cases, inexpensive carbs, this does not appear so. Albeit, the only parts that might malfunction are the injector or fuel pump, and those are probably not inexpensive. And if the ECU goes, then the cost of repair gets near the prohibitive point of repair.


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## YSHSfan (Jun 25, 2014)

Emissions and fuel efficiency may push most small engine manufactures to go EFI in the future, but that is something that only time will tell.
In my opinion, I think "we" the people that know or somewhat know how to work on small engines don't see much of an advantage, but IMHO most snowblower consumers don't know how to work on small engines or don't want to work on them.
I know of many costumers of small engine repair shops that take their OPE products there pretty much every year because of ethanol related no start conditions, they get a "tune-up" including carb clean up/replace + oil change, their bill is well over $100, every year that ads up (some times they just get talked into getting a new machine).
They are told not to leave the old fuel in the carb, but they DO IT.
Their biggest problem is the NO-START.
For those customers there is a huge advantage on an EFI engine.
JMHO :blush::blush:


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## db9938 (Nov 17, 2013)

Do we know if these units are ethanol safe?


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## YSHSfan (Jun 25, 2014)

db9938 said:


> Do we know if these units are ethanol safe?


Good question...! I would hope so...., but I did not see that statement on their website... :facepalm_zpsdj194qh


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## YSHSfan (Jun 25, 2014)

hsblowersfan said:


> Good question...! I would hope so...., but I did not see that statement on their website... :facepalm_zpsdj194qh


On the other hand just like the Ariens spokesman stated on a fuel injection engine there is no fuel left in the injector for it to cause issues compared to carburetors, therefore it is likely to start and run fine on somewhat old fuel (also my understanding is that fuel infection system atomizes the fuel better due to its pressure, therefore somewhat old fuel works just fine on an EFI engine).
I personally see that behavior on old fuel from vintage cars used on EFI cars later , they start and run fine.
I could always be wrong with my statements, but it is what I have seen happening and what I know.....


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## stromr (Jul 20, 2016)

I've dumped old fuel both 2 stroke and 4 stroke in the old lady's car every year in the spring and never had any problems, true it was only a gallon or two when she had 10 gallons in the tank...


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## thool (Jul 25, 2016)

db9938 said:


> I don't know. It is interesting, but I think that it adds cost and complexity to something that has been answered with natural aspiration. I understand that it is a superior method of fuel delivery, but by how much and at what cost?
> 
> And while, most of our issues are often resolved with relatively inexpensive parts, or in some cases, inexpensive carbs, this does not appear so. Albeit, the only parts that might malfunction are the injector or fuel pump, and those are probably not inexpensive. And if the ECU goes, then the cost of repair gets near the prohibitive point of repair.


This pretty much sums up my thinking as well. Innovation is good, and consumers may be drawn into EFI engines that boast better fuel efficiency and fewer parts. Manufacturers will push from their end as well, because it differentiates them and cuts part counts. But like with new appliances, a support sub-culture will be needed to cope with the transition to engines with more "electronics" than just a magneto, capacitor, and kill wire.

Personally, I cannot imagine owning an EFI small engine that gets used maybe 40 times a season. What, I need software and a USB cable and a voltmeter to troubleshoot a rough idle? No thanks!


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## YSHSfan (Jun 25, 2014)

thool said:


> Personally, I cannot imagine owning an EFI small engine that gets used maybe 40 times a season.


If I was using my snowblower 40 times a season, I think I'd get an EFI engine for it.
On the other hand, I may consider an EFI engine if I'd have an all-season machine (mower, blower/bagger, snowblower/plow).... :blush::blush:

Perhaps I see things from a little different prospective since I work on carbureted and fuel injected cars, and I can see the difference... :blush::blush:

EFI engines prices may come down with time.


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## Kielbasa (Dec 21, 2013)

I was referring to the cost for the part in fuel. The $600 would actually buy me about 13.3 seasons of fuel. 



stromr said:


> How much kielbasa???


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## jtclays (Sep 24, 2010)

Hate to bring this up as it may only be a one company deal (John Deere).
There is a problem that could occur called DMCA (digital millennium copyright act) that protects software incorporated in the engines. It basically makes all information about them the legal property of the company that assembled the machine. Unlike some of our easy google searches for parts, we may start running into issues with "dealer only" service parts. JD has been doing this for years and actually has control over their commercial Kawasaki engines specifically. Anyone with a Kawasaki powered JD knows what I'm talking about. You have to lie to a Kawasaki dealer to buy parts from them:facepalm_zpsdj194qh If you mention JD anywhere in the conversation, they'll tell you flat out they can't sell to you (I can't sell you that part based on our agreement with JD), you have to go through a JD dealer. I went through this about a year ago trying to find a very non-software part, a carburetor. It was made by and is stamped Mikuni and is for a Kawasaki commercial grade engine. All local shops would direct me to a JD dealer because I was using JD parts numbers. Long story short, JD dealers sell the same Mikini carb for $240 I bought from a Kawasaki dealer for $110. Just a thought to ponder whether we are advancing or not:icon-hgtg:


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## YSHSfan (Jun 25, 2014)

jtclays said:


> JD dealers sell the same Mikini carb for $240 I bought from a Kawasaki dealer for $110. Just a thought to ponder whether we are advancing or not:icon-hgtg:


We see something like that in the automotive world often. If the car manufacturer gets a part made for them, you can often get the OEM part (which is the exact same part that you will buy at the dealer minus the car manufacturer emblem or name that gets machined or ground off) at 50% or less the cost at the dealer.


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## jtclays (Sep 24, 2010)

hs, it's frustrating, because I look at it like the tire shop saying, "Those rims had Goodyears on them, and we can't sell you Coopers. GM spec'd Goodyears." Kind of like the old days when you had to bring your car in with no catalytic converter on it to get dual exhaust put on:smiley-confused009: They couldn't cut it off or touch anything near it if it they saw it. Come back a day later and 3000 times louder they'd do anything you wanted.:wavetowel2:


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## Kiss4aFrog (Nov 3, 2013)

IMHO I love the idea of FI small engines. It wouldn't be any different than a car. Yes there are more parts and it would be more expensive but not that $600 figure. When they start making enough of them the cost will come down and the engines will start easier, run better, stronger, cleaner and save you money in gas. Best of all there shouldn't be any new FI engines that hunt constantly like my Troy blower and Earthquake tiller do. I really need to drill or swap out those jets !!


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