# Question for people who sell used blowers.....



## Mike C. (Jan 28, 2016)

Hi guys/gals,

I've been curious about something for a while,and I had a discussion the other day made me want to come here and ask a question.

For those who regularly sell used blowers and go so far as to repower them with Predator engines,what has been the customers' reaction to the Predator engines?

Most people recognize the names Briggs and Stratton and Tecumseh,but people not into small engines probably don't have any idea what a Predator is.When they see that the blower has a brand new engine on it,do they ask who Predator is,and when you tell them it's a $99 Chinese engine with a 90-day warranty do they seem concerned about that?

I ask because a guy came to my house the other day and happened to mention he was in the market for a small,used blower.I told him I would consider selling my Toro 521.

He appeared interested until he noticed the name Greyhound on the starter.He said,What the heck is a Greyhound?.As soon as I said Harbor Freight and then China,it was all over.

Of course I explained to him that all blower engines were now made in China and I don't think he believed any of that.I showed him what a great running engine it was and started it by pulling it over with my index finger.He WAS impressed with that,how quiet it was and that it only had about 40 hours on it,if that.In the end though,not being a Briggs or Tecumseh turned him off and he left without it,which really didn't hurt my feelings.

So,has anyone else had this happen?Myself,I would think that seeing a brand new engine sitting atop a used blower would be a deal maker and most customers wouldn't care who made it or where.Any negative reactions/no-sales due to the Predator?


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## cranman (Jan 23, 2016)

My own blower has a WEN on the recoil that came from Harbor Freight, and I've repowered several blowers with either the WEN or Greyhound clones, but haven't sold them yet....I really think it wouldn't be a negative to have a clone, but rater a plus.


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## guilateen02 (Nov 23, 2014)

Maybe telling home (Honda Clone) you would have had better luck. I have yet to throw a clone on a machine to sell. I have done some of china engines for customer repairs. Most of them want the same motor they had until they see some of the prices for a used Tec or Briggs.


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## cranman (Jan 23, 2016)

I did sell a Jacobsen to a man who had blown up the Tecumseh on his. I offered to repower his with a clone, but he balked at the idea, and said if I could find a good used Tecumseh, he would rather go that route even though twice the cost.


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## sscotsman (Dec 8, 2010)

cranman said:


> said if I could find a good used Tecumseh, he would rather go that route even though twice the cost.


I would rather do that too, because sometimes "lowest cost" isnt the most important consideration..I would rather pay more for higher quality than pay less for lower quality.

Based on everything I have learned on this forum over the years, if I was shopping for a used snowblower, a re-power with a $99 predator would be an automatic "pass"...dont want it, will never want it. I will keep looking for a vintage machine with its original engine.

Scot


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## JLawrence08648 (Jan 15, 2017)

*I thought received positive feedback on HF Predator engines*



sscotsman said:


> I would rather do that too, because sometimes "lowest cost" isnt the most important consideration..I would rather pay more for higher quality than pay less for lower quality.
> 
> Based on everything I have learned on this forum over the years, if I was shopping for a used snowblower, a re-power with a $99 predator would be an automatic "pass"...dont want it, will never want it. I will keep looking for a vintage machine with its original engine.
> 
> Scot


I don't understand this, though I feel HF sells nothing but junk, I carefully choose what I buy there, being new to this board, I thought there was nothing but positive feedback from using the HF Predator engines. They are easy to start, have power, and several on here have been using them for a few years and often where they live.


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## dbert (Aug 25, 2013)

We all feel a little dirty promoting something made in China. We all feel a little dirty promoting something where the design and engineering was stolen from a respectable Japanese company. We all wish Tecumseh was still around manufacturing HSK engines in the good ole USA, but they’re gone. Some here refuse to support a Chonda for moral reasons.
I had a 7HP Tecumseh throw a rod running at spec RPM serviced to the proper level with clean oil. Stuff happens. $99 and a couple hours tinkering in the shop and it was not only a working machine again, but starts easier, runs quieter and throws the snow further than the Tecumseh L-head it replaced. I wish I could only shop at a local mom and pop business, but I find myself at Wal-Mart because it's cheaper and convenient.


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## Jackmels (Feb 18, 2013)

I have Found From Experience that a New Engine is a Big Selling Point on Otherwise Used Machines.


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## Mike C. (Jan 28, 2016)

sscotsman said:


> Based on everything I have learned on this forum over the years, if I was shopping for a used snowblower, a re-power with a $99 predator would be an automatic "pass"....
> 
> Scot


And what,specifically, have you learned here over the years that would make you pass on a Predator re-powered machine?Just about everything I've read here about the Predators has been very positive...

They haven't been around long enough to see how many years you can get out of one.My own Greyhound is on its 7th winter and still runs perfectly-I've done nothing but change the oil.

I'm certainly not knocking your personal opinion,Scott,and in a way,I also agree with you.I would rather have a nice Briggs or Tecumseh flathead on my Toro probably because I hate to see the death of old-school quality manufacturing.In my area though,in good shape,those engines are considered to be worth their weight in gold.I bought the Greyhound because I could afford it,and so far,I haven't regretted it.


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## micah68kj (Oct 8, 2011)

Very fortunate I didn't buy any snowblowers for this season. I never even had to use my blower this year. Lots of guys sitting on them.
I do have a nice few tillers though. It may never snow again but people are always planting gardens.:hope:


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## 43128 (Feb 14, 2014)

i sell old ariens 10000 series sort of the same way jackmels does. people love the fact that most of them have a brand new engine and i show them how well they run and how easily they start. if they ask about the brand name, i simply tell the customers the truth, they are honda clones based off the honda gx200 engine and that if they have problems honda parts will bolt right on. i also tell them they have a 90 day warranty from the time they buy them from me. i have not had one comeback or any calls from customers saying this things a piece of **** or i am having issues with it. machines that have decent engines that runs on starting fluid with no smoke will get fixed if it only a minor issues like carb issues or something minor. other ones like oil burners, engines with chucked rods, or other major damage will either get stripped of usable parts and swapped to a predator or what i have been doing more frequently is pulling off the electric starters, selling those on craigslist and giving away the rest of the engine to local forum members who either rebuild them or use them for parts


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## UNDERTAKER (Dec 30, 2013)

*As long as there is no hole in a BRIGGS Engine block. you can still get parts to make it better, faster stronger than ever before. that is what I did with the engine on "SR". and that engine is NO Gutless wonder oot here in the Frozen Tundra. IT WILL FOREVER WAKE THE NIGHT!!! in the Hood. and that is all the more I am SAYING ON THIS 1!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!k:k:k:k:k:*


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## jrom (Jan 10, 2014)

POWERSHIFT93 said:


> _...NO Gutless wonder oot here in the Frozen Tundra. IT WILL FOREVER WAKE THE NIGHT!!! in the Hood..._


Got to love the way you get behind your gear! Fun stuff P-93 (or is that P-51? :biggrin


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## snowflitesly (May 5, 2016)

Here in Canada, we have the PowerFist label. From what I can tell, it's the exact same as Predator. The store that is now nation wide which has exclusivity on this label is Pricess Auto. They do have top end names there, but most of the stuff is the store name brand PowerFist to sell cheaper tools and repair merchandise.


I've been in there plenty when it comes to fabrication and repairs, they have it all. Of course I had to try some powerfist tools and see for myself. From experience, Powerfist is a low grade, single use alternative to buying the stronger name brand to last a lifetime. 


Example, I once bought a air gun for finishing nails (for door and window trims) for dirt cheap (like $20, good for nails and staples), two nails and it jammed on me. took it apart, saw the flaw, and replaced the cheap part with the right part and it works ok (part cost me more than the price of the gun), on ten nails, only 1 fails to come out but it does not jam anymore.


This winter on kijiji, saw 4 blowers for sale with Powerfist engines on them, 2 were blown, one the guy said the pull crank was broken (yeah right), and the 4th said it did not start properly.


All this said, when searching for a blower, I keep away from such low end repowered blowers.


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## snowflitesly (May 5, 2016)

And I too would take on a flat head rebuild any day before buying a Powerfist/Predator engine. 

This is my opinion backed by experience with Powerfist brand. Its a copy not the real deal with RnD backed conception.


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## wow08816 (Feb 2, 2017)

I personally would not buy any power equipment with an advertised rebuilt engine (regardless of the brand). This is because I lack the mechanical skills to fix or properly assess the quality of the refurbished equipment. So to be on the safe side, I simply stay away from equipment of that nature.


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## Mike C. (Jan 28, 2016)

snowflitesly said:


> ....
> 
> This is my opinion backed by experience with Powerfist brand. Its a copy not the real deal with RnD backed conception.


I really don't think that RnD/engineering is really an issue with the Honda- Clone engines seeing as though they ARE merely copies of the Honda GX- series engines.Honda has already done the RnD for the clone builders.It's a proven design/concept that the Chinese have eagerly copied because they didn't have to pay for all the pre-production work.

Where the problems can arise is in the execution of the concept.What CAN be questioned is the quality of materials used,quality of castings,quality of machine work and assembly/fitting of components.

Inspect a genuine Honda and you will see they ARE better made than a clone but at 3-4 times the price of a Predator I would certainly expect that.


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## EdwardC (Sep 26, 2016)

Out of curiosity, what do you guys think of repowering with a different engine, say on the Toro 521, instead of the Predator, you found a used Honda engine, like GX160, GC160, or even a GX200 or GC190?

I ask because finding a HS50 for a 521 might be tough (even at twice the price), but you can usually find a decent used honda at a reasonable price.

For example, I see used GC160s on craigslist (usually from a pressure washer that probably wasn't winterized before freezing) going for about $100. Assuming it's in good condition and runs well, would you rather repower with that over a Predator? There's a power difference but I would guess it has enough power for a 521. And of course, the aluminum bore is a downgrade as well - but it's not a Chinese clone from HF. I wonder if it would sell better?


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## cranman (Jan 23, 2016)

If it ever snows again in Massachusetts, they will all sell.


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## 43128 (Feb 14, 2014)

i would still rather have a brand new predator then a honda gc or gcv series engine. the honda gc and gcv series engines use an aluminum cylinder bore, an ohc system that uses a timing belt, and only bushings cast into the crankcase to support the crankshaft, not bearings. a brand new predator will outlast a brand new honda gc160 or gc190 if it is maintained properly. a used honda gx i would highly consider but i would not buy a used gx engine that came out of a commercial environment unless i could get one cheap and rebuild it(like the gx390 i just rebuild, clearly came out of a commercial environment and had a lower end knock and was burning oil. i paid 65 for it, and then i bought a rebuild kit for 32 dollars on ebay that included new piston rings, a new piston, a new conrod and all gaskets. now for 107 dollars plus maybe 5 bucks in gas to go pick up the engine i have a 600 dollar engine for approximately 110 bucks that will last me for years to come.)


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## cranman (Jan 23, 2016)

I really don't understand the bias on the quality of the Predator engines and the Chinese carburetors. Who does everyone think makes all the snowblower engines anyway now? Now if you are a purist...or hate the Chinese for taking control of the worlds manufacturing, or just love the sound of a flathead...fine. But really....the Predator is every bit as good a a Honda now...and at 1/4 the price. And a Chinese carb is a no brainer...unless you can't wait three days for delivery., or don't have one in stock. I always keep one for the h-70 and one for the hm80 in stock at all times and reorder as I use them. I'll swap out choke levers if different and go from there. This discussion kind of reminds me of the "old guys" when I was hottrodding in the 60's....."flatheads forever"....of course now I'm an old guy and still love the old 289,302,351,428 or 429 engines from my era.....Heck...if it starts and throws snow...good enough


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## Jackmels (Feb 18, 2013)

cranman said:


> If it ever snows again in Massachusetts, they will all sell.


You May get Your Wish Late this Week!


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## cranman (Jan 23, 2016)

I'd better refresh my Craigs list ads! Thanks Jack!


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## snowflitesly (May 5, 2016)

cranman said:


> I really don't understand the bias on the quality of the Predator engines and the Chinese carburetors. Who does everyone think makes all the snowblower engines anyway now? ........


 


Mike C. said:


> I really don't think that RnD/engineering is really an issue with the Honda- Clone engines seeing as though they ARE merely copies of the Honda GX- series engines.Honda has already done the RnD for the clone builders..........
> 
> Inspect a genuine Honda and you will see they ARE better made than a clone but at 3-4 times the price of a Predator I would certainly expect that.


It's my opinion based on experience and some knowledge in manufacturing/fabrication. Maybe both knock offs vs the name brand look similar and do the same job. But its the material used in making them both, there is the difference. Plastic is plastic, metal is metal to the common person, but some combination of metals and polymers give specific properties and can be critical for lifespan of the part in question. Just like the regular gas vs premium, gas is gas, right? The only way to know the exact blend of a metal/polymer is to have a traceable fabrication number of the material used to trace it back to when is was melted at the foundry(metal, aluminium)/mold manufacturer(polymers). This number is held by brand name RnD office and kept secret, you know, like grand-ma's sweet spaghetti sauce. Knock off copy manufacturers ASSUME its the right material for the clone, hense the way cheaper price and 30 days warranty.


I knew an electronic wiz. He showed me that Sanyo have parts from Sony in them. Those parts failed the Sony quality standard inspection. Since there is a lot of parts that do not make it, Sony saw that as a loss. They opened the name brand Sanyo with less warranty and nail that lower middle class market value. 


Or maybe I, and lots of friends, have the rotten luck to be grabbing the failed knock off that was off the assembly line that Friday afternoon, every single time? Home outdoor power tools, car repairs, construction tools, cookware, home entertainment, etc etc. Probably initially made by the same manufacturer, but why is knock offs sold for less than 1/3 the price. Materials are cheaper. Why? There is a market for lower cost non conforming parts/tool/machines. 


Anywhoo, OP wanted some feedbacks, well here is my experience and knowledge, you have the right not to approve. 


Peace


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## UNDERTAKER (Dec 30, 2013)

I used to tell people that there are new old stock engines sitting in warehouses just wanting a good home. but then I checked out all those places again. and GUESS WHAT they are just about all gone now. so the only thing I can say anymore is just rebuild what you have. if you don't want 1 of those engines.k:k:k:k:k:


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## EdwardC (Sep 26, 2016)

43128 said:


> i would still rather have a brand new predator then a honda gc or gcv series engine. the honda gc and gcv series engines use an aluminum cylinder bore, an ohc system that uses a timing belt, and only bushings cast into the crankcase to support the crankshaft, not bearings. a brand new predator will outlast a brand new honda gc160 or gc190 if it is maintained properly. a used honda gx i would highly consider but i would not buy a used gx engine that came out of a commercial environment unless i could get one cheap and rebuild it(like the gx390 i just rebuild, clearly came out of a commercial environment and had a lower end knock and was burning oil. i paid 65 for it, and then i bought a rebuild kit for 32 dollars on ebay that included new piston rings, a new piston, a new conrod and all gaskets. now for 107 dollars plus maybe 5 bucks in gas to go pick up the engine i have a 600 dollar engine for approximately 110 bucks that will last me for years to come.)


I would agree with you, but I would guess that the average snowblower owner has no idea which engine has a cast iron liner, but they do know Honda as a brand and reputation. It would be interesting to see which would sell better, a Toro x21 with a Predator repower vs. a GC160.


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## RoyM (Feb 7, 2017)

If it says Honda it will sell, most consumers don't know the difference between a GC and GX and quite frankly don't care. I am sorta retired but still work part time for a local shop. We don't sell or service the Chondas, we can't stand behind them as there is no warranty support. The only exception is MTD's Powermore as we are an authorized service center.
We are also a Briggs dealer and have been warned if we stock the clones our dealer status 'would be reviewed'. Yes it is a threat that may or may not stand up in court but the risk outweighs the benefit.
I am reminded of John Ruskin's take on this. 'The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten' is just as true today as it was in 1861.


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## Mike C. (Jan 28, 2016)

snowflitesly said:


> .... Knock off copy manufacturers ASSUME its the right material for the clone, hense the way cheaper price and 30 days warranty.......


You REALLY believe this?You honestly think that the Chinese clone manufacturers aren't capable of analyzing the materials that a Honda engine is made of?We're talking about a very technologically sophisticated country.And what would be the point of copying Honda's supposed secret formulas?The Chinese have been making small engines for many years,they know how to do it.They can/do make high-quality engines-if they choose to.

Where the Chinese are really smart is that they know how gullible consumers can be,and they'll also overlook a lot to save a buck-hence the popularity of Harbor Freight.

If they make an engine that looks just like a Honda,sounds like a Honda,has parts interchangeability with a Honda,then many consumers will think they're getting an engine as good as a Honda without the big price.Considering Honda small engine manufacturing is still going mighty strong,I'll assume the Chinese haven't fooled everyone.

Personally,for $99 I think the Predator is a heck of a deal for 6.5hp engine as long as one realizes and accepts that it may(probably) not last a long time.We'll have to wait and see.


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## 43128 (Feb 14, 2014)

EdwardC said:


> I would agree with you, but I would guess that the average snowblower owner has no idea which engine has a cast iron liner, but they do know Honda as a brand and reputation. It would be interesting to see which would sell better, a Toro x21 with a Predator repower vs. a GC160.


 It kind of sad that people don't know or care about the difference. It's the difference between an engine lasting 15 years and 30 plus years. I love the gcv160 on my Honda hrr216, but I know I won't get 30 plus years out of it like the engine on my Honda hr194, which uses a gxv120 that still runs like new. The gcv160 is a great engine but I plan on having to replace that mower 15 years down the road, I know it nots going to last like a gx and I don't expect it to. I think that an educated buyer that knew the internal differences between a Honda gc160 and a predator 212cc would choose the predator. The truth is just because a product has a fancy Honda decal slapped on it doesn't make it a better product. If you ask me, the Honda go series engine is just a way for Honda to milk there brand name as much as they can by producing an inferior product. The Honda gc series is just a way for them to make money off their reputation. The truth is, my predator engines will be running long after your Honda gc engines have been replaced


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## snowflitesly (May 5, 2016)

Mike C. said:


> 1- You REALLY believe this?You honestly think that the Chinese clone manufacturers aren't capable of analyzing the materials that a Honda engine is made of?We're talking about a very technologically sophisticated country.And what would be the point of copying Honda's supposed secret formulas?
> 
> 
> 2- The Chinese have been making small engines for many years,they know how to do it.They can/do make high-quality engines-if they choose to.
> ...


1- I don't believe, I know for a fact the only way to know the exact blend is to have the trace number, no other way, just go ask any metallurgist, they can only make tests on samples and get an approximation of certain properties.


2- Name me a respectful engine company that is based in China that can compete with world's top engine makers of the last 20 yrs.


3- Yes, you are right on that note, I did mention that there was a market for cheaper engines, the China smartness at it's best.


4- sorta like point number 3, some prefer not to spend on this sorta things, but looks like, runs like and smells like don't make it the same as, point one tells the rest of the story.


5- You have the right to buy and own whatever you like.


Peace


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## cranman (Jan 23, 2016)

Remember when Made In Japan was a term of derision? I've got several Chondas from 15 years ago that I put into service on cranberry dryharvesters, and on 2 inch pressure pumps when cleaning wet harvested cranberries. When I bought them, I bought an extra pump and several extra engines as I could swap them out in minutes if I had any issues. Now these motors don't shut off for a month in harvest season....they start every year with the previous years gas, and the only problem I've had was the shut off switch failing on just one of the motors. I finally this year, took my "backup" engines off the shelf and repowered snowblowers with them. I'm very comfortable working on Tecumsehs, and they are good enough for snowblower motors that don't see 10 hrs a year on average...and they will last 45 years if the owner checks the oil and such.....but lets get real...a Predator is 10 times the engine. Ever seen a Chonda chuck a rod??? I don't know if the metalurgy in a Chonda is different...and Jimmy crack corn...I don't care! If they sucked I wouldn't use them...and they don't suck. 15 years on a $99 engine and still runs like new... that comes out to 6.60 a year and I still am running them HARD.....


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## snowflitesly (May 5, 2016)

I'm very happy for you, whatever floats your boat


and keep these cranberries coming, my kids love these sort of berries.


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## UNDERTAKER (Dec 30, 2013)

cranman said:


> Remember when Made In Japan was a term of derision? I've got several Chondas from 15 years ago that I put into service on cranberry dryharvesters, and on 2 inch pressure pumps when cleaning wet harvested cranberries. When I bought them, I bought an extra pump and several extra engines as I could swap them out in minutes if I had any issues. Now these motors don't shut off for a month in harvest season....they start every year with the previous years gas, and the only problem I've had was the shut off switch failing on just one of the motors. I finally this year, took my "backup" engines off the shelf and repowered snowblowers with them. I'm very comfortable working on Tecumsehs, and they are good enough for snowblower motors that don't see 10 hrs a year on average...and they will last 45 years if the owner checks the oil and such.....but lets get real...a Predator is 10 times the engine. Ever seen a Chonda chuck a rod??? I don't know if the metalurgy in a Chonda is different...and Jimmy crack corn...I don't care! If they sucked I wouldn't use them...and they don't suck. 15 years on a $99 engine and still runs like new... that comes out to 6.60 a year and I still am running them HARD.....


* I take it you farm cranberrys then.mg::emoticon-south-park*


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## GustoGuy (Nov 19, 2012)

cranman said:


> Remember when Made In Japan was a term of derision? I've got several Chondas from 15 years ago that I put into service on cranberry dryharvesters, and on 2 inch pressure pumps when cleaning wet harvested cranberries. When I bought them, I bought an extra pump and several extra engines as I could swap them out in minutes if I had any issues. Now these motors don't shut off for a month in harvest season....they start every year with the previous years gas, and the only problem I've had was the shut off switch failing on just one of the motors. I finally this year, took my "backup" engines off the shelf and repowered snowblowers with them. I'm very comfortable working on Tecumsehs, and they are good enough for snowblower motors that don't see 10 hrs a year on average...and they will last 45 years if the owner checks the oil and such.....but lets get real...a Predator is 10 times the engine. Ever seen a Chonda chuck a rod??? I don't know if the metalurgy in a Chonda is different...and Jimmy crack corn...I don't care! If they sucked I wouldn't use them...and they don't suck. 15 years on a $99 engine and still runs like new... that comes out to 6.60 a year and I still am running them HARD.....


I own 3 HF Predator 212cc engines. All 3 run great and the oldest one is on a Doodlebug Minibike for the last 4 years or so. Back a couple years ago my son who is out of highschool 2 years now and his friends would ride that bike like crazy all day long and it still starts in 1 pull of the recoil and idles smoothly. The HF Predator 212cc is the darling of the carting world for a good reason and people have been beating the snot out of these engines and they are even lasting for more than a season on racing go carts. There are companies that market go fast parts for the Predator 212cc have actually torture tested these engines (to see what fails) and spun them up to 5500 rpms (valve float with stock springs) without touching the internals of the engine with out failure. All the Honda clone and Predator aftermarket part manufactures say replace the stock flywheel (dangerous) with a billet one that can withstand up to 8000 rpms and for really high horsepower such as the stage 4 build get the recomended billet connecting rod as well. With NR racing stage 4 kit on a Predator 212cc the engine has been dyno tested at 15hp which is nearly 3 times the stock hp. Loncin which makes motorcycle engines and scooter engines and even Toro snowblower engines makes most of the 212cc engines for Harbor freight. For $99 it is a great engine.


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## KennyW in CT (Feb 24, 2015)

Seeing the price of aftermarket (Rotary, Stens, etc.) Tecumseh rods are 40 bucks or more, adding in a sump gasket and head gasket (if needed) puts just the rebuild parts at 50-60 bucks. A carb kit another 5. 35-45 bucks more gets you a Honda clone with a warranty. Most people will go for the new engine, regardless of clone status.


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## FearlessFront (Aug 18, 2016)

I purchased a 32 wide Ariens last winter for $195. The first thing I did was pull the 7hp Tecumseh L head off and sold it. It was too weak of an engine for a machine that large. I than took my 1971 24 wide Ariens that had the Predator on it and swapped the Tractor with the predator too the 32 wide bucket (their interchangeable). I did this because the Predator was too powerful on my 24 wide Ariens, the 24 wide now has a pristine 71 Tecumseh on it I got for a decent price, that machine can stay original and the 7 hp L head is ample for the 24 wide bucket, the Predator was too much for the 24 wide, really.... It literally snapped the roll pin on the axle that held the differential hub in place. (Chains on flat tread pneumatic tires). Had to get a new roll pin for that machine. Now the Predator is powering my 1971, 32 wide Ariens and the machine has double the amount of power it used to have with the old 7hp Tecumseh H70. The impeller and auger turn twice as fast and throw snow twice as far. My gears move faster now too, not a bad thing, it would have been to slow at the speed this thing slings snow now. Anyway the point of the story is the Predator is unbelievable. Quality, low cost, much more power, it's a little beast of a workhorse. Now my 32 wide machine is powered to eat a 32 wide inch swath of snow...
Now the machine has a taller chute. It's like a whole new, completely different machine.
Oh one other thing I ran over a thick frozen newspaper with it and.... no jam, it chopped the newspaper right in half and threw it 20 feet, the engine cut off, it started right back up, didn't throw a rod. What does that tell you?
I love the old Tecumseh L head engines. The medium frame line is great. But it would have been nearly $500 for a NOS medium frame Tecumseh, it was $100 for the Predator and in 1971 the medium frame's were not out yet. The most they had was the 7hp which is a small frame (not as big as the medium frame). A 32 wide machine needs more than a 7hp small frame L head, it was not enough, now it's matched well.
Don't let $99 Harbor Freight engine fool you, the thing is a beast!
In fact my old Ariens is taking a lot more of a beat down with that Predator on top then ever before....
They say it's as rough and tough as the honda, well I never owned a Honda of that power level, could not afford too, but if this is any indication then I'd say yea it's basically a Honda without Honda's name.... 
It's tearing it up out there and at the commercial level, I do snow removal, I can say without a doubt they hold up, they are worth it, it made my 32 wide Ariens better than it ever was originally hands down. 
I wouldn't buy some of the other brands they seem to lack power like the LCT on the new Ariens a guy was using one across the street from where I was and my big old beast was showing that thing up with the predator on it. 
So yes from experience, the Predator is great, it won't let ya down.
Mine was made by Rato, its the non Hemi, which from what I understand is the non green version also, works great, so I don't think it really matters which Predator you get weather its Loncin or Rato, they're both great little engines.


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## snowflitesly (May 5, 2016)

i'm happy to hear all of you had great experiences with your engines. Good for you and you prove me wrong.......


B&S/Tecumseh/Honda/Subaru/Yamaha/etc etc *< *Predator


I have no more to say......


I've read about the company who sells these engines. Founder Allan Smidt in 1968 (Harbor Freight & Salvage Co.) to then have his son take half in 1977 and named it Harbor Freight Tools mail order company . 20 some yrs later, the son became CEO of the now known multi-billion dollar industry in primarily China made tools and engines.


Now my question is, with all this great experience with these engine I've recently read about (stock form or modified), and all these years of availability, why didn't all the major name brand small engine tool company have not yet jump on this engine and make even more profit with their line up?


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## Marlow (Dec 17, 2016)

Mike C. said:


> Myself,I would think that seeing a brand new engine sitting atop a used blower would be a deal maker and most customers wouldn't care who made it or where.Any negative reactions/no-sales due to the Predator?


For me, just like buying a vehicle, I would prefer the machine have its original engine. A machine with a replacement engine on it would be a red flag to me in that because it required a new engine, then it wasn't taken care of very well.


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## Mike C. (Jan 28, 2016)

snowflitesly said:


> 1- I don't believe, I know for a fact the only way to know the exact blend is to have the trace number, no other way, just go ask any metallurgist, they can only make tests on samples and get an approximation of certain properties.
> 
> 
> 2- Name me a respectful engine company that is based in China that can compete with world's top engine makers of the last 20 yrs.
> ...


I can keep repeating myself until Hades freezes over-my points are obvious and valid.All the facts in the world won't influence you-you've made up your mind-and that's fine.

1. As I already said,whether China-clone builders CAN copy Honda's "sectret formula's" or not, there's no need to.They're building these engines to a price point-they don't need to know Honda's alloys.Does Briggs use Honda's exact alloys-I doubt.Does Kohler?-I doubt it.I think the Chinese are capable of producing excellent quality alloys-if they chose too.Why is it necessary for a $99 engine?They're not trying to build an exact reproduction-only a CHEAPER version.

2.The answer to this question is rather obvious-the company that makes the Predator engines,for one.Look how many they've sold.You don't think the Chinese manufacturers have hurt Briggs and Kohler?Why do you think the Briggs and Kohler engines are having quality problems?Why do you think these once PREMIUM brands are now made in China?They're trying to make them cheaper.Why?People are buying a lot of inexpensive China- clones.

3.We can agree on this point-yes,the Chinese are smart.Copy a good product,build it a lot cheaper,sell it a lot cheaper,sell a ton of them.Consumers appear to be happy with them regardless of the lesser(long-term) quality.Sounds brilliant to me.

4.Again,I never once said that a Predator was as good an engine as a Honda.It's merely a cheaper copy there of.That's the goal.With a 90-day warranty,no one with an IQ larger than their shoe size is going to expect these to be as good as a Honda,at least as far as long term durability goes.And it's not just point (1).-quality of materials-that the Predators lag behind a Honda-castings,machining and tolerances are not equal either-no surprise there.

5.Thank you-I tend to do just that.Twenty minutes ago I just got done moving some very heavy nasty snow with my Toro 521 powered by a Greyhound Honda-clone.That 7 year old, $99 wonder never skipped a beat.Would I be surprised,or angry, if it blew up the next time I used it-NO.It came with a 90 day warranty,I don't kid myself that it's equal to a Honda.


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## snowflitesly (May 5, 2016)

obviously you like china made engine, fine, I will leave this discussion/thread because I feel you are starting to measure something I have no interest in measuring. Mike, U wanted some opinions, I gave u my opinion base on facts of my life, described thoroughly my points also based on facts, you cannot take it, me being in this thread has become pointless.


And I will quote myself on this note, u obviously flew passed this reply.




snowflitesly said:


> i'm happy to hear all of you had great experiences with your engines. Good for you and you prove me wrong.......
> 
> 
> B&S/Tecumseh/Honda/Subaru/Yamaha/etc etc *< *Predator
> ...


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## Mike C. (Jan 28, 2016)

snowflitesly said:


> ....thoroughly my points also based on facts, you cannot take it, me being in this thread has become pointless.


You stated your opinions,not necessarily facts-I made couterpoints that question your facts,nothing more.I can take being disagreed with,believe me.Moving right along....


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## rkchainsaw (Jan 2, 2017)

I am not familiar with HF engines. Never bought one. But I am a stickler for the American made OEM's. However, this thread has been very informative. I will not totally eliminate the Predator from my future projects. Just some things that are somewhat unclear to me:

What exactly is a "Chonda"?

And are the engines that come on HF equipment original? I have a wood splitter that has a Honda engine. Is it truly a Honda?

Thanks in advance. I love these topics that carry a ton of info.


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## snowflitesly (May 5, 2016)

Mike C. said:


> You stated your opinions,not necessarily facts-....




see what I mean.....


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## KennyW in CT (Feb 24, 2015)

rkchainsaw said:


> I am not familiar with HF engines. Never bought one. But I am a stickler for the American made OEM's. However, this thread has been very informative. I will not totally eliminate the Predator from my future projects. Just some things that are somewhat unclear to me:
> 
> What exactly is a "Chonda"?
> 
> CHinese hONDA = CHONDA


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## KennyW in CT (Feb 24, 2015)

Basically a clone of the Honda GX200 and similar Honda products


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## Fat City (Feb 11, 2017)

I have a 212 cc H F Predator engine on my Ariens, and I love it ! The engine base is a little thicker than the Tecumsehs Ariens used, so a different belt is required, and the Ariens studs need to be pounded out, to make room for longer bolts . The Air Filter should be removed, not needed on a snow blower . What I like best is the engine makes power at a lower RPM than the Tecumseh, so it is much quieter. Given the choice, I'll take a Predator over a Tecumseh any day. As for Honda or CHonda, if it's Red, and says HONDA on it, it's a real Honda, if not, it's a clone. LiFan [ Chinese ] is also a good engine. Unlike the poorly made 50 cc Gas Bike engines, the Chinese Engines are beautifully built, and an impressive value for the Dollar . 
I used to snicker at the Honda, when the engine comes with a parts / service manual, and the insides are as well finished as the outsides, the snickering stopped, and the smiles began.


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## Fat City (Feb 11, 2017)

I agree, a non stock engine is a turn off . People fear they can't get parts for the Predator . Those fears are foolish . I have a couple Predators, they run good, haven't tried to get parts, but for $ 100, I'll buy a new one if I ever need to, and keep my old one for parts. If Tecumseh is such a good engine, why did they go out of business ?


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## cranman (Jan 23, 2016)

I have a couple of shelves in my storage building I keep old Hondas on...to use for parts for my Chonda's! I robbed a carb from one yesterday, because I cracked the carb on my Chonda by overtightening.


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## JayzAuto1 (Jul 25, 2016)

F/C: Tecumseh held it's own for 100 years.....longer than I can keep myself going. But I think you answered your own Question: ECONOMICS...... 

"but for $ 100, I'll buy a new one if I ever need to, and keep my old one for parts."

Consumers that "have no skin in the game", or don't care about Quality, Longevity or American Pride and have a choice, will buy cheaper. The overseas manufactures supply that price point. They prey on the "Disposable Products" society. Nothing wrong with that, it's capitalism...... 

I guess the same could be said for many of the old "Heavy American Iron".....WheelHorse and Original Cub Cadets come to mind. MTD supplied a price point that value's price over Quality and Longevity. 

This conversation will never be settled, it's a matter of opinion. No right or wrong answer. 

Here is a question for you.......What will an antique predator engine be worth in 50 years??? I guess whatever the next product they make from the carcass of that Predator.

What about a 50 y/o WheelHorse, that's in excellent shape??? IDK either, But online, they appear to be worth more than the Original selling price, judging from what's out there. 

As long as it worx and your satisfied, that's all that really matter???

GLuck, Jay


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## FearlessFront (Aug 18, 2016)

Marlow said:


> For me, just like buying a vehicle, I would prefer the machine have its original engine. A machine with a replacement engine on it would be a red flag to me in that because it required a new engine, then it wasn't taken care of very well.


Well I have two 1971 Ariens Sno-Thro units. My 32 wide with my now Predator upgrade and my 24 wide machine with my 1971 Tecumseh H70 L head. The Tecumseh was well cared for and in excellent condition, but its old, its burns oil and it is just very weak compared to the Predator. Its a tired old engine. So if your looking for a machine in that age group, buy it with the original engine but be ready to do a power replacement.
We just had a snow storm in Jersey Thursday, we do snow removal. We were using both machines and the 24 was dragging way behind its 32 wide with the Predator. Its slow, it doesn't throw very far, its tired. Its almost time to retire that engine too. Its a shame its in real nice shape but the Predator runs at 4600 rpm no problem the Tecumseh runs right around 3300 rpm max and its burning oil really fast, I mean it was in the add area within 2 hours from the start of use.....
1971 Ariens with original Tecumseh L head: 



1971 Ariens with updated modern OHV Predator engine:


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## FearlessFront (Aug 18, 2016)

JayzAuto1 said:


> F/C: Tecumseh held it's own for 100 years.....longer than I can keep myself going. But I think you answered your own Question: ECONOMICS......
> 
> "but for $ 100, I'll buy a new one if I ever need to, and keep my old one for parts."
> 
> ...


Tecumseh held its own for just under half a century, 48 years to be exact. Their first winter engines were put to use on the first Ariens Sno-Thro's in 1960. They had Tillitson updraft carbs in 1960 and 1961 and then they began using the modern bowl carb in 62. Tecumseh went into business in the late 50's when they purchased Lauson engine company along with power products. They were on Snowblowers from 1960 and they went out of business in December 2008. They were on 2009 model year machines and that was the final year they were in use, so just under 50 years. Now Briggs they have been around now almost 110 years, but they weren't in the snow business hard until recently, the last 10 years since Tecumseh went under. But all of these OHV designs all came from a Honda engine, including Briggs. So when I do a repower I'm not spending $500 for a name, I'm spending $99 for the same result, actually even better because these predators are torcher tested and are the standard in the carting world, where they have many after market upgraded parts and run those engines as high as 6000 rpm. That's really good.
Just to get the facts straight on the time Tecumseh was around. They have now been out 9 years and in that time everything has changed. Flathead's are no longer produced the OHV is standard, 2 cycle engines are no longer used on single stage machines and they are OHV engines now, as well. They are quieter, more fuel efficient and have more power, pack a heavier punch. Tecumseh made great engines, but their history and now taking a classic machine and retro fitting it with a modern OHV engine makes it more of a beast than ever before, it makes the machines feel like whole new machines. From experience. 
Tecumseh was great, but Tecumseh was the past the OHV design and the Predator are the present and future.
I guess the real question is who cares what's going on in 50 years, I will probably be dead, I'm worried about now. I need machines that hold up to commercial abuse now for snow removal, where I'm making the real money, not what the Predator will be valued at in 50 years. But too those who care that much about what an engines values worth in 50 years, remember, life is too short.


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## FearlessFront (Aug 18, 2016)

rkchainsaw said:


> I am not familiar with HF engines. Never bought one. But I am a stickler for the American made OEM's. However, this thread has been very informative. I will not totally eliminate the Predator from my future projects. Just some things that are somewhat unclear to me:
> 
> What exactly is a "Chonda"?
> 
> ...


Well from experience your going to be missing out and wasting money, I use them commercially running right around 4500 rpm, 3 years now.....
Before: 



After:


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## FearlessFront (Aug 18, 2016)

Fat City said:


> I have a 212 cc H F Predator engine on my Ariens, and I love it ! The engine base is a little thicker than the Tecumsehs Ariens used, so a different belt is required, and the Ariens studs need to be pounded out, to make room for longer bolts . The Air Filter should be removed, not needed on a snow blower . What I like best is the engine makes power at a lower RPM than the Tecumseh, so it is much quieter. Given the choice, I'll take a Predator over a Tecumseh any day. As for Honda or CHonda, if it's Red, and says HONDA on it, it's a real Honda, if not, it's a clone. LiFan [ Chinese ] is also a good engine. Unlike the poorly made 50 cc Gas Bike engines, the Chinese Engines are beautifully built, and an impressive value for the Dollar .
> I used to snicker at the Honda, when the engine comes with a parts / service manual, and the insides are as well finished as the outsides, the snickering stopped, and the smiles began.


After I took the Tecumseh off and put the Predator 212cc shaft sat in the exact same spot. The pulley slides right on the shaft and the same belt is in use no problem. Also the pulley on the arm can be adjusted to belt size, but I had to make no changes to the belt or adjustments when I swapped. It was a direct swap. The only thing that had to be done was to remove the old studs and add longer bolts. Another great thing about the Predator, the throttle cable can be hooked up and used. $99 bucks. It cant be beat.


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## FearlessFront (Aug 18, 2016)

JayzAuto1 said:


> F/C: Tecumseh held it's own for 100 years.....longer than I can keep myself going. But I think you answered your own Question: ECONOMICS......
> 
> "but for $ 100, I'll buy a new one if I ever need to, and keep my old one for parts."
> 
> ...


The Briggs are made in China now too. They are all based off the same Honda design, only difference one costs $500 one costs under $100.
I use mine commercially 3 years at 45oo rpm, news flash.:icon-deadhorse:
The Predator will gain more acceptance over time as they are used more and more people see them in action and as more and more Tecumseh's kick the bucket and disappear. In another 10 years, the Predator will be the standard, they already are in the carting/minibike sports world.


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## JayzAuto1 (Jul 25, 2016)

GMorning F/F, Again I cannot stress the point that this 'Conversation' will never be settled......ESP when there are opinions involved. I was attempting to answer a previous post on the question:

"If Tecumseh is such a good engine, why did they go out of business ?"

That is all, simply put. I'm not a genius, just a poor working idiot, trying to scratch out a living....just a squirrel trying to gather a few nut, per se. I'm not really a computer guy either. Being a simple man as I am, I Googled* the phrase Tecumseh, and clicked on the very first listing on my computer:

LPMain

This is what appears, and these are the facts I use. AGAIN, to stress the point, not in an argumentative way, i was attempting to answer a previuos posters question:

"If Tecumseh is such a good engine, why did they go out of business ?"

He did not ask "When did the SNOW KING engine company go out of business", Why did the Briggs and Stratton engine company send manufacturing overseas......Or the history of WHEN the Snow King engine made it's debut, WHO started using it, Why it was developed or any of the facts that you bring up, which are certainly valid and fun facts. I LOVE FACTS!!!!!! And I sincerely appreciate your schooling me on THE FACTS. 

I merely bring up the FACTS of ECONOMICS, as to the failure of a significant engine company in America's History, that did not change with the times, fast enough to survive in it's previous form. 

And I happen to love History, mainly because of the FACTS involved. Thank You for bringing this to my attention. I will do further research, because I enjoy tracing the evolution of companies in general and engines specifically, as they relate to a hobby I enjoy. 

I certainly hope you stay on this earth another 50 years, as you are a wealth of useful information, and I can learn much from you, as you appear to love history and research also. 

Personally, I have nothing against The Predator or any of the offshore engines. They appear to hold up fine, have a wide American audience and have generally been accepted by many hobbyists. They appear to have come a long way, since first being introduced, and there is no doubt they will continue to improve with time. A good judge of acceptance can be found in the availability of aftermarket parts to improve performance and longevity. As well as the use of these engines in so many vocations and hobbies. There is no doubt in my mind, that they will become the new American Standard. Another indicator of their success, lies in the fierce loyalty that their users claim, after only approx, 7 years?? That's great inroads for a startup company. I'm sure their business model will be studied for many years.

Different Strokes for Different Folks

Please don't take offense at my opinion, as I certainly don't take offense at others..... nor do i intend to ram my thoughts or opinions down anyone's throat. I'm merely here trying to learn the craft and offering help where I can.

Your mileage may vary.

Thank You, Jay


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## UNDERTAKER (Dec 30, 2013)

FearlessFront said:


> Well I have two 1971 Ariens Sno-Thro units. My 32 wide with my now Predator upgrade and my 24 wide machine with my 1971 Tecumseh H70 L head. The Tecumseh was well cared for and in excellent condition, but its old, its burns oil and it is just very weak compared to the Predator. Its a tired old engine. So if your looking for a machine in that age group, buy it with the original engine but be ready to do a power replacement.
> We just had a snow storm in Jersey Thursday, we do snow removal. We were using both machines and the 24 was dragging way behind its 32 wide with the Predator. Its slow, it doesn't throw very far, its tired. Its almost time to retire that engine too. Its a shame its in real nice shape but the Predator runs at 4600 rpm no problem the Tecumseh runs right around 3300 rpm max and its burning oil really fast, I mean it was in the add area within 2 hours from the start of use.....
> 1971 Ariens with original Tecumseh L head: https://youtu.be/xcshB5NTsNQ
> 1971 Ariens with updated modern OHV Predator engine: https://youtu.be/bA0gD2O7iIE


* My new old stock 13HP BRIGGS engine is a lot Quieter than that engine.k:k:k:k:k:*


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## UNDERTAKER (Dec 30, 2013)

*I am just tossing this out here for the masses. some one is always stealing some others technology. the Japanese stole it from us. the Komatsu brand of heavy equipment was built from caterpillars stuff. they got/bought one of cats machines tore it apart studied it and built there own version of it. and that is all the more I AM SAYING ON THIS 1!!!!!!!!!!*


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## snowflitesly (May 5, 2016)

FearlessFront said:


> Tecumseh held its own for just under half a century, 48 years to be exact. Their first winter engines were put to use on the first Ariens Sno-Thro's in 1960. They had Tillitson updraft carbs in 1960 and 1961 and then they began using the modern bowl carb in 62. Tecumseh went into business in the late 50's when they purchased Lauson engine company along with power products. .........


 
And Lauson were making engines from 1895, Tecumseh bought the company and continued it's line of engines, So we could say these types of engines have more than 100 yrs of fabrication, although the company is now closed.


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## Snowbelt_subie (Dec 20, 2016)

as far as this winter we haven't had much snow but ive flipped 5 blowers so far i have 2 more that need some work other then my personal blower. i might hold on to them until next year.

i have a shed ill wait until next year i might pick up a couple more so i have 5 because mother nature will pay us back for these 2 mild winters the last 2 years. :snow48:


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## FearlessFront (Aug 18, 2016)

JayzAuto1 said:


> GMorning F/F, Again I cannot stress the point that this 'Conversation' will never be settled......ESP when there are opinions involved. I was attempting to answer a previous post on the question:
> 
> "If Tecumseh is such a good engine, why did they go out of business ?"
> 
> ...


Over time it will. Give it another decade when more and more of these Predators are being used as more and more Tecumseh engines disappear. It takes time for something to take hold and be excepted by the majority. But I have no doubt that as more of these Predator engines are sold and out their being put to use, more and more people will see how well these motors perform, hold up at the price point their being sold at. As more people actually try them, they will gain more and more acceptance until the tide turns and the opinion tips the other way in favor of these new motors. Again Briggs, LCT, Powermore, Kohler, Powerland, Loncin, Rato, Honda, Predator and many other brands are all based off the same original Honda OHV design. I have messed with Powermore and LCT and I don't like them, they are not of great quality. The Predator is excellent and holds up to the Briggs and the actual Honda's themselves. From experience I can say those Predators are as rough and touch as the Honda's at 1 quarter of the price. This conversation will be settled, it's just going to take time. I give it another 10 years or less before the majority will all be saying these Predators are excellent engines and their prices are flat out unbeatable. As that occurs, other companies like Briggs is going to continue to be hit hard financially. I'm not paying for a Chinese Briggs engine that is based off a Honda design for $500 when I can get that same engine, as good, if not better for $100 or less.
Briggs should have stayed in the USA and designed there own OHV design. I have lost respect for Briggs and Stratton. Briggs and Stratton used to make some of the best engines out there. Their L head design 8hp and up with their updraft carb was an excellent unstoppable engine. Their cast Iron line was also top notch. They do not build cast Iron engines in the USA anymore or sell them the epa put a stop to that and the L heads are all but gone except on lawnmowers and they will be doing away with those completely soon too, everything is going OHV, yet Briggs is building and selling their cast Iron line in Southeast Asia. What we, the Americans are left with is sad. Briggs is loosing ground. People complain why are American companies building their engine and China. Well in many cases you can blame U.S. policy, under the Obama administration the epa put a choke hold on engine manufacturers. So they moved out.
Time will settle this, I guarantee it. Just watch as the tide turns within the next decade. :tempted:


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## FearlessFront (Aug 18, 2016)

POWERSHIFT93 said:


> * My new old stock 13HP BRIGGS engine is a lot Quieter than that engine.k:k:k:k:k:*


I'm running that engine at 4500 rpm, the max allowed up top on the linkage its hitting against the metal and wont go any farther or I could run it even faster. I've been running it at 4500 rpm 3 years no problem, it idles around 3300 rpm. I backed my throttle set screw so it could run as fast as possible. When its running within the 7hp range (1800-3500 rpm it is quite) but besides that these engine can handle running at much higher rpm's. Its running at 4500 you can add another horsepower or so, that machine runs and throws snow as if a 10hp rated engine was powering it, at that speed. What rpm are you running your Briggs at? 3500 rpm. If I was using the the 8, 10 or 13hp Predator at 3500 rpm it would be as quite as your Briggs, however these engines including the 212cc can handle being run at 4500 rpm, can your Briggs, will your Briggs even allow to be ran that high? If it can set your 13hp Briggs to run at 4500 rpm and see how loud it is then, if it can handle it, I'm sure it will be running very loud....... 
I'll stick a Tach on the engine the next time I make another video, major upgrades have been done, taller chute, the chute rod is diverted up by me with u joints, no more bending, so a new video is due anyway. I run that sucker at 4500 rpm. I know in the carting and motor sports world they remove the governors or alter them to run in the 6000 rpm level, so it would be even louder than. That engine has already caused 2, 1/4 wide roll pins that hold the differential lock hub in front of the wheel on the axle to snap. The plastic cover is vibrating a huge crack into it and the Ariens nameplate on the handlebar had a split in it and the engine has vibrated that crack larger and larger. These predators turn these machines into beasts and these machines are being put under a lot more stress then they originally were ever put under with their stock motors on them, as a result parts on the machine will wear out and break down faster, it will on any machine, I'm running at 4500 revolutions per minute.
Your Briggs is moving right around 3500 rpm, naturally at a slower speed it will be quieter, listen to the engine when I bring the throttle down, that's running around 3300 when I bring the throttle down which is the range your engine is running at. When its running at 3300 rpm and less it is quite when you go into the 4000's it's running much faster and naturally much, much louder. :2cents:
Watch the video again, when I bring the throttle down its running right around 3300 rpm, as you'll see when its running at 3300 rpm (the 212cc rate) it is quite. When I run it at 4500 rpm closer to a 9hp engine it is very loud. Most engine manufacturers wont let you set your engine to run that high, these Predators are able to be set to run that high and do, without issue.
The faster the throttle speed is set and engine firing, the louder its going too be.
If I put a 420cc Predator on my machine and ran it at 3500 rpm it would be around the same volume as your engine and have the same amount of power, but I can set that 420cc engine to run at 4500 rpm if I set it to run that fast, it would be way to loud and the machine would have to much power and would end up breaking parts on the machine. Now these are heavy metal machines with cast iron gear cases, so they will hold up longer than a lot of the cheaper made machines, but even a 71 Ariens would start to break apart with a 420cc engine running at 4500 rpm. I would not want to put more than a 301cc Predator on that machine as, if I go higher than that, it would break down the machine, so the 212cc at 4500 rpm is more than ample, loud yes, but powerful. It would be right behind your 13hp Briggs running at that power. You have to compensate HP for RPM to compare sound, power, etc.


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## FearlessFront (Aug 18, 2016)

snowflitesly said:


> And Lauson were making engines from 1895, Tecumseh bought the company and continued it's line of engines, So we could say these types of engines have more than 100 yrs of fabrication, although the company is now closed.


No you cant, they bought out the name and made their own designs, from both Lauson and Power Products. LCT bought out the Tecumseh name and they are making engine's now and they have nothing in common with Tecumseh engine's so you cant do that. The only one you can do that with is Briggs which has been in the same family and same company building engine's for over a century.
You cant say oh well Lauson has been around since 1895 but then Tecumseh bought them out and continued them, because they are completely different engines.
Tecumseh came in, in the late 50's, 1956. Their first winter engine was released in 1960, their last winter engine was made in December 2008. The first two years their winter engine's used completely different carb setups, shrouds, recoils and many other different parts, so you really cant count them. So the Tecumseh winter engine as we know it ran from 1962-2008. That's 46 years, if you want to include the first two years of winter engines its 48 years. If you count when Tecumseh first started its 52 years. A half century, not 100 years, you cant do that. Tecumseh dropped the Lauson name by the mid 70's they only continued to use Lauson's name so people would trust buying them in the beginning, like now people having issues trusting Predator, that's all that was. They used their name to ensure survival and promote the newly found Tecumseh, not Lausons design, it was completely dismantled, so Lauson was around from 1895 to 1955, that's 60 years, engines we don't ever even see they have been gone so long. Tecumseh Power Products retained its name the entire time and power products was their own company beforehand which you didn't even mention , but you cant count anyway.
That would be like saying Tecumseh lives on through LCT, yet these LCT engines are yet another OHV honda design made in China and they are junk compared to actual Tecumseh engine's so no you cannot do that. Tecumseh was in business 52 years period. Lauson was in business 60 years. LCT has been in business since 2010, 7 years, you don't count companies that bought out another company and carried their name, when their designs are dismantled. Briggs is the only one you can count right now from beginning to current.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tecumseh_Products

In 1956, Tecumseh Products Company purchased the Lauson Manufacturing Company, which was founded in 1895 by John Lauson. By the time of the purchase in 1956, Lauson Manufacturing Company had grown into one of the largest manufacturers of small gasoline engines in the United States. Following the purchase, Tecumseh Products Company DISMANTLED most of the Lauson Manufacturing Company and used the assets to create Tecumseh Power Company. That means they used their name not design to advance Tecumseh forward. 

In 2007, the company's former gasoline engine and power train product lines were sold to Platinum Equity LLC. In December 2008, the company closed its engine manufacturing division. Later Tecumseh Power sold off its Peerless transmissions business to Husqvarna Outdoor Products. Tecumseh closed its doors on February 2009 when Platinum Equity LLC announced that Tecumseh Power Company had sold certain assets of its engine business to Certified Parts Corporation, including all existing and unfinished engine parts inventory, tools to make finished product and certain intellectual property assets.

You cant count a dismantled engine company that another company bought, you go by when Tecumseh started and when they built their design and when they closed and stopped building their design. If Tecumseh had continued to use Lausons design then it would be a different story but they didn't, Tecumseh designed and built their own engines, just like LCT are building their own engine's. Tecumseh engines had their own unique design and identity, they are gone. You count by when they started and ended which was just 52 years, not 100 years. You don't do that. :smiley-shocked029:


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## sscotsman (Dec 8, 2010)

FearlessFront said:


> You cant say oh well Lauson has been around since 1895 but then Tecumseh bought them out and continued them, because they are completely different engines.
> 
> 
> Following the purchase, Tecumseh Products Company DISMANTLED most of the Lauson Manufacturing Company and used the assets to create Tecumseh Power Company. That means they used their name not design to advance Tecumseh forward.
> ...


Are you 100% certain about that?
Im not 100% certain either way, but there is some evidence that Tecumseh did continue some of the Lauson engines under the Tecumseh name.

I agree with you that its a known fact that only the Tecumseh name is being used now, since 2008, and the 2008 Tecumseh engines are no longer being made..but im not so sure it was that clear-cut in the 1950's..

a Lauson engine collector says:



> Lauson, and then Tecumseh produced the RSH models until the late 1950’s when Tecumseh discontinued the old Lauson Manufacturing Company line. I believe, however, that Tecumseh continued production of at least one of the RSH engine types through into the early 1960’s. My picture gallery contains a picture of my RSH with my RSV that you can see here http://www.smokstak.com/gallery/file...5/102_2734.jpg.


Source: https://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53936

And another Lauson collector says:



> This is a Lauson RSH-899. The RSH is another popular engine series of the Lauson products. The RSH series was built from the late 1940s or early 1950s through into the 1960s. It is another of the Lauson designs that Tecumseh continued to produce into the 1960s after discontinuing most Lauson models in 1958. The RSH series succeeds the RSC series. All engines In the RSH series were cast iron and were rated at 2 HP.


source: 




So, it seems that people knowledgeable about Lauson engines say that Tecumseh did in fact carry over some Lauson designs..which means there likely is Lauson DNA in some Tecumseh engine bloodlines..

So, its likely not as clear-cut a cutoff as you suggest..

Scot


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## FearlessFront (Aug 18, 2016)

sscotsman said:


> Are you 100% certain about that?
> Im not 100% certain either way, but there is some evidence that Tecumseh did continue some of the Lauson engines under the Tecumseh name.
> 
> I agree with you that its a known fact that only the Tecumseh name is being used now, since 2008, and the 2008 Tecumseh engines are no longer being made..but im not so sure it was that clear-cut in the 1950's..
> ...


The point is Tecumseh has been in business since 1956 and went out in 2008. That's 52 undisputed years, Not 10 years not 100 years. 52 YEARS.
Briggs has been the same company from the very beginning to now over 100 years undisputed.
Why people have to make something so simple so complex, I don't understand.....
:icon-deadhorse:

.....and it's a snowblower forum the winter engines ran from 60 to 08 the first two years they had major differences. 48 years of Tecumseh winter engines, 46 with the modern bowl carb.....
........and even if Tecumseh did continue Lausons and Power products designs it was short lived a few years at best, before Tecumseh was focusing in on snow business and their own designs and dropped Lausons designs to focus in on their own and it has nothing to do with snow or a snow blower, so either way Lauson did not last no 100 years and Tecumseh was a company that was around 52 years. That's the facts.
Briggs and Stratton have been making engines from the beginning too now and have been the same company by the same family the entire time they never changed hands or got bought out, you can't say that for Lauson, power products, Tecumseh. Lauson, Tecumseh, LCT have not ran under the same family and company, like Briggs, big difference..
Why is it made so difficult? Tecumseh 1956-2008= 52 years.


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## sscotsman (Dec 8, 2010)

FearlessFront said:


> The point is Tecumseh has been in business since 1956 and went out in 2008. That's 52 undisputed years, Not 10 years not 100 years. 52 YEARS.


My point is, i'm disputing your point! 
I have evidence that your point is probably not correct..

What you are stating as facts might not be factually correct..you might be wrong, it might be reasonable to say Tecumseh engines did not start out of nothingness in 1956..They probably did continue some of the earlier Lauson designs.

So your definitive *52 YEARS* is perhaps not as clear-cut as you believe..There is strong evidence that you are simply wrong about that.

Scot


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## sscotsman (Dec 8, 2010)

FearlessFront said:


> ........and even if Tecumseh did continue Lausons and Power products designs it was short lived a few years at best, before Tecumseh was focusing in on snow business and their own designs and dropped Lausons designs to focus in on their own and it has nothing to do with snow or a snow blower, so either way Lauson did not last no 100 years and Tecumseh was a company that was around 52 years. That's the facts.







Scot


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## FearlessFront (Aug 18, 2016)

sscotsman said:


> https://youtu.be/KeswYJgf5mM
> 
> Scot


Uh huh
Tecumseh started by making ac components and they are back to making ac components, still in business. There engine line ran for a half century give or take, not a century, you can waste time disputing it all you want or perhaps call Tecumseh for the official info instead of arguing with me, they are still in business. 
Here's Tecumseh's official info
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tecumseh_Products
I'm done disputing you
On to something I would prefer to spend time on.....
Do you have the specific manual I emailed you and asked for, for Tractor model 910954 bucket model 910955? Not a generic or a combination, the actual manual they gave when they sold the 32 wide unit with tractor. Do you happen to have it, as I really could use it.
32 wide bucket with the tractor attached to it?
Thank's again.
I have already corrected you on previous issues, so I don't think we need to go back their, do we, just looking for the paperwork I need. THANK YOU.
You still haven't corrected the fact both 1973 and 1974 units had the decals on the buckets vs. the stickers.


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## FearlessFront (Aug 18, 2016)

sscotsman said:


> https://youtu.be/KeswYJgf5mM
> 
> Scot


Still waiting on those manuals I requested.
The 10000 series had decals in 73 and 74 vs the stickers, not just 74.
One of many things I found that were incorrect.
I'm done arguing the 50 year run of Tecumseh, really need to spend time with the manuals. Thank you.
Sometimes, I think you think you know it all, but that is not the case, I've already corrected things that I found were wrong for a fact, including when Tecumseh started their engine line and when they ended, the error with the snowbird 7040-0 and issues on the Ariens site, so your not perfect and neither am I. I really would rather spend time with the manuals I need instead of your opinion on what you think when the facts are out their on the web. So if you could be so kind as to send those manuals that would be great, but I'm not spending any further time arguing Tecumseh with you.


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## FearlessFront (Aug 18, 2016)

sscotsman said:


> Are you 100% certain about that?
> Im not 100% certain either way, but there is some evidence that Tecumseh did continue some of the Lauson engines under the Tecumseh name.
> 
> I agree with you that its a known fact that only the Tecumseh name is being used now, since 2008, and the 2008 Tecumseh engines are no longer being made..but im not so sure it was that clear-cut in the 1950's..
> ...


I agreed with you that Tecumseh continued a small line of Lausons engines for a short time, so I'm not sure why you want to continue to argue that with me. What about Power Products engine company, which specialized in smaller two cycle racing engine's. What did Tecumseh do with them, once they bought them out? Who know's. What I do know by fact from Tecumseh's posted information as a current company still in business is that they began by making ac compressors and components in 1934. Tecumseh power products was launched in 1956 they bought out Lauson and power products, that was two different engine companies they got their hands on. As too what they did with those companies designs, I do not, know and I honestly don't even care. I have never owned a Lauson engine a power products engine or any that may or may not have been made by Tecumseh. What I do know is Tecumseh power formed in 1956 and their winter engine line began in 1960, one of the machines they piloted was the first 1960 Ariens two stage sno-Thro. That those engine's used Tillotson updraft carburetors in 1960 and 1961 which I don't even think you mention on the Ariens site. In 1962 Tecumseh had designed and began using their own float bowl carb which was used all the way up to the end December 2008, they ditched Tillotsons updraft carb for their own carb. The 1960 and 61 Ariens have engines that have updraft carbs the only two years they had them. Tecumseh was in business from 1956 to 2008 making engine's, that's 52 years. Their winter engine line started in 1960 the first two years they had updraft carbs by Tillotson in 1962 Tecumseh used their own carb and the carb shrouds changed. Their winter engine line ran from 1960-2008 that's 48 years. 46 of those years they used the same float bowl carb design throughout. That is what I know, that is what I know as fact. Tecumseh the company began in 1934 and is still in business today. They make ac components. Tecumseh the actual company has been in business 83 years. Out of 83 years Tecumseh built engines 52 years. 48 of those were spend building winter engines along with many other lines of engine's including small engines for ice augers and outboards. Their is a broad spectrum. But their engine line ran 52 years. I am not disputing you on it, I'm not worried about what they continued in the early days and when they dropped it, I am giving their total time beginning year to ending year that they built engines, 1956-2008, 52 years. Do we need to discuss it any further??
Do you have the specific operator and parts manuals for the 1971 Ariens 32 wide Sno-Thro which employed Tractor model 910954 which had wider Tires and the 7hp Tecumseh H70 engine along with the 32 wide bucket which was model 910955? I really need those specific manuals for my specific machine. Not a generic of a few years combined or the 24 wide models manual, but the actual manuals that would have came with that machine when it sold. If you have them great, please email me them, to the email I have contacted you from, yesterday, which I had also contacted you a month back regarding the snowbird, thank you. Neither of us were even alive when Tecumseh first started making engines and I'm not worried about specific details. Those engines so far proceeded me I have never even seen on in real life. They are long gone, I am just giving Tecumseh's specific dates that their engine line operated, which was 1956 and it ended in 2008 which marked a sad point when everything moved to China. Are we on the same page?
Please send those manuals, if you have them, thank you.


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## sscotsman (Dec 8, 2010)

Wow...tl, dr. not at all.
also:










I will look for the manuals.

Scot


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## FearlessFront (Aug 18, 2016)

sscotsman said:


> Wow...tl, dr. not at all.
> also:
> 
> 
> ...


Yea I really don't need to be insulted, in fact you know that's not supposed to be taking place on here and your a moderator, so your supposed to be held to an even higher standard. "A friendly forum about snowblowers" That's not friendly.
But yes I would appreciate those manuals.
You needed to be corrected and the facts needed to be laid out there for you and I wouldn't be calling me no lady. You're the one that is too afraid to open up a carburetor, to clean it, spraying seafoam inside it is not going to clean out the gum deposits and crap that have built up in there. You need to be a man and open her up and clean her out, it takes carb cleaner, wire, a brush, it's a simple job and you'll learn, its very easy, so don't be afraid to pop that bowl off. Those Tecumseh carbs are the easiest carbs to open and clean, you may know all the info on them, but you have to be able to work on those things without fear, don't be afraid to get your hands dirty, get in there and clean that carb out, your engine will thank you for it. When you made the video of your 1962 machine, you never started it or ran it to show what it was all about. Why?? Maybe you should be a little more thorough. But don't dare call me a bitch when your the one that is too afraid to pop open a Tecumseh float bowl carb, the easiest carbs to work on. The video's on youtube for beginners make it even more simple then when I learned how to do it. Donyboy73 has the perfect video to show step by step how to tend to that situation.
So I'm going to pretend you did not just write that bullshit and you can get me those manuals.


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## cranman (Jan 23, 2016)

That's what I love about this forum...we all agree to disagree!


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## sscotsman (Dec 8, 2010)

Ok, thats enough of this thread..
and no, you wont be getting your manuals now..I was going to just let it go and send them to you anyway, but you pushed it too far.
call me shallow if you like, but I dont see any reason why you deserve my help.

(edit: 30 minutes later)..for the sake of your snowblowers, I will still send you the manuals, if I have the ones you need.
give me a few days to look for them, I think I have them backed up on a CD.

Scot


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