# HSS1332 have to run with choke pulled



## btm (Dec 25, 2017)

Soy hss1332 is just over 3 years old. Warranty was up a month ago. Took it to Honda in November because last season it backfired and ran like crap with the choke pushed in all the way. 

They told me it was likely the carb needed cleaning and it wouldn't be covered under warranty. 

I ended up paying them $350 which included an oil change (I provided the oil) and installing a new jet (#108 I think, whatever you guys had recommended) and a tune-up and a good look over the machine. 

They said the carb was spotless and didn't need any cleaning, and that it was running perfectly fine. 

So the first few times I used it, no problems, runs great. 

Now that the weather is colder, it backfires and runs like junk with the choke all the way in. What I have to do is pull the choke out maybe 1/4 to 1/3 of the way when there's no load on the engine. Then as I start to clear heavy snow I push the choke all the way in, and as soon as there's no load it starts to backfire and run like ass again.

Anyone have any ideas on what could cause this? Carb is clean clean, has a new larger jet. But sure seems like there's a major lack of fuel in the cold cold weather. 

Also, it ran mint for the first 2 seasons, no changes to anything. Then it just starts doing this. 

I did have a mouse nest in the air box when it started, but cleaning it up never resolved anything. 

Hoping this is something I can tackle myself. 

Lemme know any ideas you guys may have. 

Thx

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## Shovel (Mar 26, 2019)

btm said:


> Soy hss1332 is just over 3 years old. Warranty was up a month ago. Took it to Honda in November because last season it backfired and ran like crap with the choke pushed in all the way.
> 
> They told me it was likely the carb needed cleaning and it wouldn't be covered under warranty.
> 
> ...


If it runs good with a little choke and your problems go away then you need a larger jet.
But first change your spark plug..sometimes a marginal plug can cause issues as well..change the plug and give it a run 

If the problem persists then it appears you are still running lean ... Old gas can also simulate a lean condition as well

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## orangputeh (Nov 24, 2016)

Shovel said:


> If it runs good with a little choke and your problems go away then you need a larger jet.
> But first change your spark plug..sometimes a marginal plug can cause issues as well..change the plug and give it a run
> 
> If the problem persists then it appears you are still running lean ... Old gas can also simulate a lean condition as well
> ...


agree on plug ....my first thought. would like to know what that plug looks like. change plug with gap in spec ( I use NGK plugs , think the dealer does also ) and see how that works.


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## JnC (Feb 21, 2014)

I'd like to know a bit more about the mouse nest, did any of the nest get sucked into the air intake? I recently worked on a 2013 HS928 that had a mouse nest in the air intake, you could see the gnaw marks all around on the inside of the intake and one of the air ducts. I cant help but think how some of the nest at some point got sucked into the cylinder. 



A new plug may solve your issue but I'd also have the carb looked at again, may be get it cleaned using an ultrasonic cleaner, especially the tiny idle jet that most folks dont look at when cleaning the Honda carb. 



If the dealer is going to charge 350 to do the carb cleaning service then it'd be WAY cheaper just to buy a brand new Honda OE carb and throw it on yourself, shouldnt take more than 10~15 minutes with a couple of basic tools.


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

Sounds like the slow jet is clogged up a bit, and that happens very easy.
No load on the engine it has the problem because at no load it is taking its fuel from the slow jet even at higher speed.
Once there is a load on the engine, the throttle plate opens further and then it takes fuel from the main jet.
You can remove the slow jet without taking the carb apart or having to remove it, and check the little "O" ring on the slow jet for tears or missing.


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

The idle jet being clogged was my thought as well, since you since to push the choke in once you start clearing snow (which would open the throttle plate, and use the main jet). 

At $350 for an oil change and a jet swap (where you provided both), and a tune-up, I'd be looking to do the work myself  A thorough carb cleaning (ultrasonic, ideally) might do it. How much is a new carb? An ultrasonic cleaner is much less than they charged you for the work. 

So depending on how interested you are in doing the work yourself, you could buy the tools to help clean the carb. Or just buy a new carb, and keep this one, to be investigated/re-cleaned later. 

Personally, I bought a good used Branson ultrasonic cleaner off eBay for under $100. I think my cleaned-carbs count stands around 8, including ones for friends. The up-front cost has been worth it for me, spread out over cleaning multiple machines. It was more than a single new carb, but has definitely saved me money over time.


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## Shovel (Mar 26, 2019)

I had missed the part about the problem occuring at no load.
Low speed jet. X3

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## orangputeh (Nov 24, 2016)

after paying $350 I would be a little upset. I am assuming they changed the plug. I am also assuming they pulled the bowl and sediment cup and saw that was clean and said "hey no need to do anything else here"

I wonder if they pulled the idle slow jet and cleaned and inspected that little O ring???

I agree with JnC ..that mouse nest is concerning. It would be easy to pull plug , inspect that , remove muffler , turn over engine and maybe clean out compression chamber? 

but just because they checked the carb doesn't mean it is totally clean. the emulsion tube and/or idle and/or pilot jet could still have clogs. hopefully you did not have old gas in this machine.

anyways, did you contact the dealer/shop and tell them that it runs like crap? maybe or they should look at it again for freakin FREE.


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## btm (Dec 25, 2017)

Thanks for all the info guys. 

I'm going to go back and see the dealer and get a full report of what they did.

I always run shell 91 v-power in it, nothing else. 

I have an ultrasonic cleaner. 

I do not have the service manual for this machine. I guess I'll need to buy that to tear the carb apart and clean the jets?

I'll replace the spark plug for sure if anyone know which NGK plug I should get? I'll check the ngk site and see if they list one as compatible. 

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## btm (Dec 25, 2017)

So are there 2 jets? The main jet and an idle/low speed jet?

I recall them saying something about drilling out a secondary jet slightly larger, which sounded strange to me.

As for the mouse nest, that's what I assume caused the issue. I posted here about it last season, someone suggested a nest in the air box, and sure enough there was. I cleared it out and there was no visible damage beyond the best itself being there. No chew marks. 

When I change the plug, I should be able to see into the cylinder to check for debris? Or better if I drive the muffler and have a better look?

I'm a car guy, no experience with small engines  but I have no issues working on this myself. 

Thx again everyone. 


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

There would typically be 2 jets, an idle jet (used when the throttle is mostly closed), and the main jet (used when the throttle plate is significantly opened). 

I usually read up on stuff too-much before taking things apart. But I cleaned a Kawasaki carb for a friend recently. Didn't have a chance to find a manual for the carb, so just took it apart carefully, along with taking pics along the way. Then ran it through the ultrasonic cleaner (I use Simple Green HD as the cleaning solution). 

Interestingly (to me), the first time I cleaned it, it wasn't fully successful, and still surged. But I hadn't removed a lot (mainly the bowl and float), since I was afraid of damaging his $150 carb by trying to remove a stuck jet or something. So I did it again, and this time I removed the jets, and basically everything that could be unscrewed. The second time did the trick, and it ran properly again. 

Replacing the plug is at least cheap insurance, won't hurt anything, and it's easy to do. No idea what NGK plug it would be, sorry, but the manual should list that, or check the current plug. 

If you can see into the cylinder with the plug removed, cool, but I really doubt you'll be able to see anything. Removing the muffler may not let you see much either (this isn't a little 2-stroke where the muffler is basically just stuck to the side of the cylinder). I suspect you're dealing with a carb issue, I wouldn't worry much at this point about trying to get a look inside the cylinder.


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## orangputeh (Nov 24, 2016)

your shop receipt should show what work they did and parts like plug etc.

the hss1332 plug is NGK BPR5ES

stock jet is a #102......I thought they said they installed a 108 or did they just drill it out?


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## btm (Dec 25, 2017)

I had a friend pick it up and didn't get the invoice. I was driving an 06 Range Rover when I dropped it off. Hit a deer shortly after, insura ce wrote it off, bought an X5 and no tow package, so that's on my list of things to do. 

I paid them to install a #108, and appare tly they drilled out the smaller jet too. 

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## tabora (Mar 1, 2017)

@btm, I went back and reviewed the posts in your original thread from last fall...

1. You mentioned that you were running 91 octane and it was suggested that you change to 87 octane. 91 octane is harder to ignite than 87 and is meant for use in high-compression engines.
2. You decided to go with a #108 jet at 300' ASL. As was mentioned, many of us below 500' are using a #110:



 Up to 500’ - #110
 500’ to 3000’ - #108
 3000’ to 6000’ - #105
 6000’+ - #102 stock


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## btm (Dec 25, 2017)

I figured a #108 would be a good increase over stock. And it is for sure. But in the cold weather it still surges with no load. The first few snowfalls of the season it ran perfect, so I thought Honda resolved the issue.

It ran fine on shell 91 for a few years, and anything else around here will have 10% or more ethanol content, and I think I want to avoid that?

Point is, it always ran fine with shell 91 v-power, and the stock jet. So something's wrong.

I'm gonna change the spark plug and check out the idle jet/small jet.

I know I can order a printed copy of the service manual, any idea if I can buy a PDF online??

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## SkunkyLawnmowers (Oct 18, 2018)

btm said:


> I know I can order a printed copy of the service manual, any idea if I can buy a PDF online??


Unfortunately, no. Only hard copies available.


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## tabora (Mar 1, 2017)

btm said:


> Point is, it always ran fine with shell 91 v-power, and the stock jet. So something's wrong.


I have to wonder why you're asking folks questions if you're going to ignore the answers? If the stock jet was fine, why did you change it?


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

If they drilled out any jets, you might as well throw them right in the garbage because you will ruin a jet in a big hurry by drilling it out.
The jets are built with a "Venturi" in them, and if you drill it out, you lost the venturi in it and just totally ruined it on a Honda carburetor.
Always replace them with the OEM jet in the larger size, never drill them out to a larger size.
The Keihin Carburetor jets are very precision drilled with a laser to give them the Venturi in them. If you could ever see a cross section of the jet, you would see the venturi in it. The venturi speeds up the fuel flow going through it. Once you loose the venturi speed effect, it will not atomize the fuel properly and not get enough fuel into the venturi of the carburetor body even though it is drilled out larger, it will **** out raw fuel in dig droplets and be harder to ignite along with power loss and many other undesirable effects, like spitting and sputtering, backfiring and low fuel mileage.
You want the very fine mist of atomized fuel so it vaporizes and ignites better, and also use the lower octane rating fuel like 85-87 octane for a faster more complete burn in the combustion chamber.
Those engines are designed for low octane gas with not a lot of ignition timing advance because the low octane gas ignites quicker and burns faster than high octane gas, plus the engine does not have high compresion that would need the higher octane. Using high octane gas is a waste of money with no power improvement, a slight loss of power if anything.


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

tabora said:


> I have to wonder why you're asking folks questions if you're going to ignore the answers? If the stock jet was fine, why did you change it?


It may have run fine on the gas last year, but this year it is refined differently and that may be giving him a problem right there, being the gasoline is made a little bit differently this year than it was last month or year. The refineries change things constantly. You are not always getting things at the pump that you think you are paying for, it happens all the time.


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## btm (Dec 25, 2017)

tabora said:


> I have to wonder why you're asking folks questions if you're going to ignore the answers? If the stock jet was fine, why did you change it?


I think you misunderstood me. It started surging/backfiring with the stock jet. My bad. 

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## KJINTF (Dec 31, 2017)

I run 91 octane as well - never any fuel related issues
I do not believe that's his problem - Sounds like a slightly clogged Carb 

For me it's a no brainier it's the only gasoline available anywhere near me without any Alcohol
Rather have 91 octane and ZERO alcohol in my many Honda engines


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## Spawn.Qc (Dec 24, 2019)

ST1100A said:


> If they drilled out any jets, you might as well throw them right in the garbage because you will ruin a jet in a big hurry by drilling it out.
> 
> The jets are built with a "Venturi" in them, and if you drill it out, you lost the venturi in it and just totally ruined it on a Honda carburetor.
> 
> ...




I think you misunderstood the concept of octane rating...
Or maybe I did, but I based my following statement on aviation engine and endless conversation with my cousin, a mechanical engineer at Honda automotive...


Higher octane rating = more resistance to detonation due to compression and heat.. but won’t burn slower or resist combustion more than lower octane.

Lower octane is more prone to detonation under compression and heat(to interconnected forms of energy)

Absolutely no engine rated for 87 will ever suffer ignition problems or combustion speed with higher octane fuel... with the exception of gas company that uses ethanol to boost their octane rating .. but then again, the problem here would be chemical composition of the fuel, not its octane rating..

Correct me if I’m wrong, it’s often the case. 


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## btm (Dec 25, 2017)

Spawn.Qc said:


> I think you misunderstood the concept of octane rating...
> Or maybe I did, but I based my following statement on aviation engine and endless conversation with my cousin, a mechanical engineer at Honda automotive...
> 
> 
> ...


100% agree. I'm not using Shell V-power 91 because it's *91 octane*, I'm using it because it's the cleanest gas I can get around here, and no ethanol. 

Petro has Ultra94, which is LOADED with ethanol. If I was running that in my snowblower, sure, I'd take the advice of trying some low octane 87.

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## tabora (Mar 1, 2017)

btm said:


> 100% agree. I'm not using Shell V-power 91 because it's *91 octane*, I'm using it because it's the cleanest gas I can get around here, and no ethanol.


 Interesting test video: Shell V-Power NiTRO+ vs Cheap Gasoline. Note the amount of ethanol measured in the V-Power. Ethanol is one way to increase octane rating.


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## tabora (Mar 1, 2017)

*Tech 101 – Octane: the facts and the fiction behind those higher-priced fuels*

https://www.hemmings.com/blog/2014/...ind-those-higher-priced-fuels/comment-page-2/


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## Shovel (Mar 26, 2019)

KJINTF said:


> I run 91 octane as well - never any fuel related issues
> I do not believe that's his problem - Sounds like a slightly clogged Carb
> 
> For me it's a no brainier it's the only gasoline available anywhere near me without any Alcohol
> Rather have 91 octane and ZERO alcohol in my many Honda engines


Same boat I am in..the alcohol free fuel I buy is 91 or 93 octane..I just know it's the most expensive option and the lower octane fuels have alcohol added.
I am after alcohol free fuel and can only get it in high octane.



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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

Hi Spawn Qc.
I understand the octane ratings very well from working with Honda engineers Motorcycle division for a few years in the 90's early 2000's.
We used to have "Hard Start" problems with many new motorcycles using high octane rated fuel-93 octane.
When we started using only 87 octane the engines started much quicker and easier. now these engines have non adjustable ignition timing on the new machines.
We studied the fuel composition and octane ratings with varying timing degrees on special units that were built and modified for that purpose and noticed that to make the engines running the high octane fuel, the ignition timing had to be advanced more degrees than the engines running the lower "Regular" octane rating- 87 octane.
We Dyno tested these engines and also got to "Race Track Test" these engines as well, and found that as the engines were built for regular production use to run on 87 octane, that was why they did not have the extra timing advance built in to them, they were designed to run on regular 87 octane fuel.
They provided the better power and fuel economy output with the lower grade fuel octane level, and were built to be more economical for the consumer cost wise when it came time to purchase the fuel to run the vehicle. I.E. They did not have to spend the extra money to buy the high octane premium gasoline for the said vehicle, and they got the better power output with the regular grade fuel.
The people who wanted to spend the extra money on the high octane racing fuel could also spend a lot of extra money on modifications to the ignition timing to advance it far enough to make the high octane fuel burn and work to their expectations. That was fine for the race guys, but not the average consumer, and also many of the race guys were using lower octane fuel in their race bikes with very satisfying results and saving a lot of money by not having to modify the ignition timing over the factory settings, and these engines were running high compression up around 12:1 on average.
They could use the regular gas because of the design of the combustion chambers that didn't have a lot of "Quench Area" that would promote detonation.
Honda has engineered that principle into their engines produced for the consumer market for decades now, not just automotive and motorcycle, but also outdoor power equipment.
Your O.P.E. engines are not designed with a high compression ratio because it is not needed for that application and the added stress on the engine components on that type of engine would not make them last very long unless the parts were built for it at an added cost to the consumer.
The modern engines are built to run satisfactorily on lower octane nowadays to save the consumer money when it comes time to purchase fuel for their usage so people do not have to spend the extra money to have to purchase Premium fuel for their operation.


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## FEF3 (Feb 18, 2016)

Sounds like the idle jet is clogged was my thought ! To avoid this in the future when storing for the summer, run the blower out of gas than mix 8 oz of gas with 2 oz of 2 stroke oil and 1 oz stabilizer "STA-BIL " run the blower until it's out ! This works great, I have been doing it for over 20 years with all my Lawn equipment and my blower, I never had any fuel problems !


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

FEF3, the 2stroke oil helps coat and protect the metal from corrosion when in storage. That is an "Old Timers" trick that still works well today, Good post.


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

tabora said:


> *Tech 101 – Octane: the facts and the fiction behind those higher-priced fuels*
> 
> https://www.hemmings.com/blog/2014/...ind-those-higher-priced-fuels/comment-page-2/


Tabora,
That is a very good article that people who read it will hopefully understand about Octane ratings and what it does.
It does state that higher Octane rated gasoline BURNS SLOWER, which I try to tell people, and that was why engines that ran on high octane gas needed a lot more ignition timing advance.
Engines that were designed to run on lower octane fuel did not need the extra timing advance because of the faster burn, quicker ignition, therefore the engine did not need the extra timing advance, and the link to the article you posted explains that, so hopefully people will read it and understand it.
It also explains how Alcohol raises Octane ratings so the people who are spending the extra money for non ethanol gas or high octane are actually spending the extra money for no advantage. They are not gaining anything extra, no extra power or better fuel mileage economy.
A lot of people do not realize that Non Ethanol Fuel does not stay fresh any longer than 10% Ethanol laced fuel. The fuels stay fresh for the same length of time. There is no advantage of Non Ethanol vs. Ethanol as long as both fuels are treated with stabilizers. Without being treated with a stabilizer, they both last the same amount of time, they both will go stale just as fast.
With a slight bit of moisture in the fuel, Ethanol will help it get through and out the exhaust where non Ethanol will have problems quicker.
I am no fan of Ethanol fuel, you get a little bit less fuel economy/mileage out of it, but all new engines are designed to be able to use it satisfactory without much problems.
I would rather we didn't have it, but we have to get used to it and deal with it.
Non Ethanol gasoline also gets moisture in it just as easy as Ethanol laced fuel.


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