# Are new Toro single stages worse than their older versions?



## Snowbelt_subie (Dec 20, 2016)

we got a storm last night started out as ice then moved to wet snow. we got about 3 inches or so. down at the eod it was 6-8 inches of heavy wet stuff in a 5X12ft area

i seen my neighbor with his MTD 2 stage clogging up every other pass i new it was going to be a rough one.

i got my 2 single stages out for some wet snow slush fun.

first was the 4 stroke power clear 621e it was doing ok in the less depth but ended up stalling a couple times in the heavy stuff and ended not throwing that stuff very far kind of barely out the chute a couple times

next was the ccr 3650 2 stroke and it just ate up everything and was throwing the wet stuff a good 20-30 ft .

after a side by side comparison i think i would take a CCR series toro over any of the new 4 strokes. they dont seem to have the same power or throwing distance.


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## DriverRider (Nov 20, 2016)

Snowbelt_subie said:


> first was the 4 stroke power clear 621e it was doing ok in the less depth but ended up stalling a couple times in the heavy stuff and ended not throwing that stuff very far kind of barely out the chute a couple times after a side by side comparison i think i would take a CCR series toro over any of the new 4 strokes. they dont seem to have the same power or throwing distance.


You can thank the EPA for banning your machines engine, gone just like 2 stroke outboards.

Probably why Toro went with 212cc engines on the 721 models instead of the 163cc? on yours.


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## Snowbelt_subie (Dec 20, 2016)

DriverRider said:


> You can thank the EPA for banning your machines engine, gone just like 2 stroke outboards.
> 
> Probably why Toro went with 212cc engines on the 721 models instead of the 163cc? on yours.


yea i hear you but i dont think its close on torque a 6 hp 2 cycle vs a 6hp 4 cycle it was very noticeable in power.

i think the 3650 is going to be my personal blower its just a beast when it comes down to it.


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## JaCkaL829 (Jan 30, 2011)

Snowbelt_subie said:


> yea i hear you but i dont think its close on torque a 6 hp 2 cycle vs a 6hp 4 cycle it was very noticeable in power.
> 
> i think the 3650 is going to be my personal blower its just a beast when it comes down to it.


I picked up a 3650 after I saw my neighbor across the street with his 2450 clearing snow in no time. After using the 3650 for a while, I ended up picking up a 210r, very similar to platform to the newer machines, but still has the R-Tek duraforce engine, and now that's my go to. Seems to be best of both worlds, toro engineering with a commercial grade USA engine.


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## Snowbelt_subie (Dec 20, 2016)

JaCkaL829 said:


> I picked up a 3650 after I saw my neighbor across the street with his 2450 clearing snow in no time. After using the 3650 for a while, I ended up picking up a 210r, very similar to platform to the newer machines, but still has the R-Tek duraforce engine, and now that's my go to. Seems to be best of both worlds, toro engineering with a commercial grade USA engine.


if i can find another ccr2000 with the old suzuki 2 cycle ill have a toro showdown ccr2000 vs ccr3650 vs 621 power clear


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## LouC (Dec 5, 2016)

Id like to see that one!
I think one of the best Toros was the 3000 GTS with the Suzuki 5 hp 2 stroke. I've has this one 20 years and it's been a good machine needing only a carb replacement in addition to normal maintenance.....


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## Snowbelt_subie (Dec 20, 2016)

LouC said:


> Id like to see that one!
> I think one of the best Toros was the 3000 GTS with the Suzuki 5 hp 2 stroke. I've has this one 20 years and it's been a good machine needing only a carb replacement in addition to normal maintenance.....


those 3000's arent too common ive been looking for one for a while. arent they the same engine as the 2000's but a different carb or something to get the extra power?


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## cr4west (Jan 10, 2017)

I run a '99 ccr3000e-gts with the Suzuki 47P. Very happy with the way it throws wet or dry. I am finished blowing in half the time the neighbors take.
It is a little bit noisy like a dirt bike. Maybe I should add an expansion chamber exhaust ? Love the electric start.
Depending on the year of manufacture and model number the 2000 and 3000 shared the R-tek and the 47P Suzuki. Some early 2000 models had the HSK-850. A couple of the R-Tek models were sold as different HP rating with a difference in max rpm.


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## LouC (Dec 5, 2016)

One thing I thought of is if I ever had to re-power this one would the Briggs Duraforce fit? It was used on the later versions of this same model. I think that Suzuki's engine price got too expensive for Toro's price point....


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## Snowbelt_subie (Dec 20, 2016)

LouC said:


> One thing I thought of is if I ever had to re-power this one would the Briggs Duraforce fit? It was used on the later versions of this same model. I think that Suzuki's engine price got too expensive for Toro's price point....


hmm i am not sure i re powered the newer body style 2450 with a 3650 engine before.

isnt the briggs rtek the same thing? as long as the bolt pattern is the same where it mounts around the crank it shouldnt be an issue.


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## LouC (Dec 5, 2016)

I was thinking Rtec when I wrote Duraforce. I'm pretty sure Ive seen one that was the same style as mine with an RTec label on it...


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## detdrbuzzard (Jan 20, 2012)

I have two 3650's ( one has electric start ) that I keep at mom's and a 3000E and 2450E at home with me. I like the 2450E best


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## LouC (Dec 5, 2016)

Checked some Toro manuals and found out that:

Rtec is the Briggs with the ported piston design (seen on snow blowers)
Duraforce is the same engine with reed valve design (seen on mowers)


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## Yetiman (Jan 12, 2021)

My experience here with my gear... (sorry if this gets long winded)

I am in Milwaukee Wisconsin, and we get a pretty good amount of snow most years. Wikipedia says Milwaukee County gets 54" average, but that sounds low for most years. In the city of Milwaukee proper we often get extra 'lake effect' snow within 5 miles of Lake Michigan.

I have a Toro 38583 I bought new in 2008. It has a 141cc 2 stroke RTec which I believe is 7hp, and was one of the first "quick chute" models. When I bought it I already had a Bolens two stage that was made by Airens. After the first season I sold the Bolens, as the Toro did 90% of what it did, and was far less of workout to use.

Fast forward to 2021. I have multiple properties in Milwaukee. I still have my 2 stroke Toro which I put new paddles and a scraper bar on over the summer, and I picked up a new Toro 821 4 stroke last month (January 2021). I also have a Snapper 724 two stage that my girlfriend bought new in 1997.

She and I have run the two stroke Toro and the 821 back to back in everything from 2" of light snow to 11 inches of relatively heavy wet snow. We both feel that for anything but the 11 inch heavy snow they were very equal.
BUT, in the deep heavy snow the four stroke 821 had noticeably more power and could be run faster through the heaviest sections where the two stroke was bogging a bit.

In particular, a section of sidewalk that had 13" of snow from a drift (slightly higher than the top of the Toro), the two stroke would bog and have to take bites at it where the 821 could go through at a steady pace. It then took a fast clean up lap after for the snow that went over it and fell behind.

Between houses where the snow had drifted to 15 inches, the Snapper two stage did a better job than either Toro, because of the taller bucket (The Snapper has a 15" tall bucket). It also does better at the big chunks at the end of the driveway. Either Toro does well with the plow pile, but the Snapper does better, and does it faster as it should.
I still feel the two stroke does 90% of what our Snapper two stage does, and the Toro 821 does 95%. They also have certain advantages over the two stage for sure.

Granted, the Snapper 724 is a small/mid size two stage, not a monster by any means.

The Toro 821 is quite impressive. I have video from security cameras of me clearing 11" snow on the driveway that I showed to a guy at work, and he said he wouldn't have believed me if he hadn't seen the video, how fast I was going, how far it was throwing, and that I was taking very close to full width cuts, not half or 3/4 cuts. He was looking to replace an old Toro that had the handle broken and repaired a couple times. He bought an 821 last week.

* I tried to upload a 10 second video clip here, but it said the file was too big for the server


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