# Repower and Trac Rebuild - Craftsman Trac (1987) - 5-23- 536884810 with 5.5HP Honda C



## unknown1

I extracted this info from my "Beg for manuals" thread to keep that one focused on the manuals.

This thread introduces my recent acquisition:
Craftsman Trac (1987) - 5-23- 536884810 with 5.5HP Honda Clone Engine
Pictures:
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1...?key=cG5KTGNGT3BtSElhZG1xYlBzWVN5N002amU0bEp3

I have the original engine (not fitted)
Pictures:
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1...?key=MVJjRWdoZHRjVVlwenhWNWJlSEFRNWtST1ZOdkNn

This is the Honda Clone Engine
Pictures:
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1...?key=R2stalIwZmtaUjZPWE1fejgxcHNSM19zWnB4dnBR

Info on Clone Engine:
Gasoline engine 5.5HP(EPA) (Shanghai Shine Industrial Co., Ltd.,China)

That Clone IS used on snowblowers:
168FA engine , 5.5HP Snow blower, View loncin engine snow blower, Leeyu Product Details from Yongkang Leeyu Import And Export Co., Ltd. on Alibaba.com


I now have two major issues to resolve:

1) Trac drive is virtually seized - needs teardown and lubrication

2) The Clone engine has no compression - needs one of 3 things..
2a) Fix the clone engine
2b) Put back the original engine
2c) Get a third engine

I will update this thread if/when I make progress


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## Grunt

Hello stuart, since the clone is already mounted and I/we have no idea what is wrong with the original Tecumseh motor, I would pull the valve cover off and make sure both valves move freely and are not stuck open. No compression would be caused by a valve open or worst case scenario, broken piston rod. You could also remove the spark plug and use a soda straw or wood dowel in the cylinder to feel if the clone piston moves up and down when turning the crankshaft slowly. Let us know what you find.

I can't help with the track drive problem, I have only worked on wheel machines. Sorry.


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## unknown1

Grunt said:


> Hello stuart, since the clone is already mounted and I/we have no idea what is wrong with the original Tecumseh motor, I would pull the valve cover off and make sure both valves move freely and are not stuck open. No compression would be caused by a valve open or worst case scenario, broken piston rod. You could also remove the spark plug and use a soda straw or wood dowel in the cylinder to feel if the clone piston moves up and down when turning the crankshaft slowly. Let us know what you find.
> 
> I can't help with the track drive problem, I have only worked on wheel machines. Sorry.


Actually, when I say no compression.. I was not being totally accurate. I tried to start it (after carb ultrasound clean) and it coughed and spluttered and backfired a little. That's when I checked compression. (Note to self.. always do that FIRST.. that's why I bought the tester!!).

So, from my minimal experience with things like Leaf blowers, I expect the cylinder or piston to be scored. I will pop off the exhaust soon and peek through the port. I'm expecting to see scratches.. will report what I see.


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## unknown1

If anybody has any videos or photos showing the TRAC tear-down and reassembly I would be eternally grateful. I've found nothing on the web. I guess experienced folks would just glance at the exploded diagrams and jump right in. I'm much less experienced and therefore initially hesitant. 

Similarly, any step-by-step engine tear-down videos/photos would be very useful. There's more stuff out there on the web for these clone engines, but I've not found a thorough how-to yet. Mostly teenagers trying to disable the RPM regulators on their go-karts. Yikes! I wouldn't want to be sitting on those when things burst through the engine and fire aluminium/aluminum shrapnel in various directions.

Thanks for any assistance.


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## Grunt

stuart80112 said:


> So, from my minimal experience with things like Leaf blowers, I expect the cylinder or piston to be scored. I will pop off the exhaust soon and peek through the port. I'm expecting to see scratches.. will report what I see.


Unless the engine was run with no oil, I doubt you will see enough wear or scratching to lower the compression. Two cycle cylinders\pistons get scored usually from straight or incorrectly mixed fuel. Do you have the ability to do a leak down test on the engine? That would show where compression is escaping. Popping\stuttering could be caused by a sheared flywheel key, a bad valve adjustment and\or low compression.

Removing the muffler will not allow you to see the cylinder wall or piston on a four cycle motor.





 
Found this link for ordering or identifying parts-

http://www.searspartsdirect.com/model-number/536884810/0247/1507200.html


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## unknown1

Grunt said:


> Unless the engine was run with no oil, I doubt you will see enough wear or scratching to lower the compression. Two cycle cylinders\pistons get scored usually from straight or incorrectly mixed fuel. Do you have the ability to do a leak down test on the engine? That would show where compression is escaping. Popping\stuttering could be caused by a sheared flywheel key, a bad valve adjustment and\or low compression.
> 
> Removing the muffler will not allow you to see the cylinder wall or piston on a four cycle motor.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueG5dcE0EPc
> 
> Found this link for ordering or identifying parts-
> 
> http://www.searspartsdirect.com/model-number/536884810/0247/1507200.html


Thank you so very very much for the video and for the hints of what and where to check. I will be watching this tear-down video very closely tonight to get the general feel for what to expect. I love that guy.. I did stumble into one or two other videos that he made bemoaning his "universal" skids that weren't "universal"... so he had to drill to get them on. 

It will also answer one other question I had.. what's the difference between a Honda engine and a Clone.... I'll find out tonight.

I'll also be googling for "leak down tests" to figure out what that might be. From the sound of it I'm guessing it's a step by step diagnosis looking for vacuum/pressure leaks... but all will be revealed after some youtube research. Thanks so much for the hints and pointers and a direction to look in.

I think it's quite amusing that I thought for one minute that I'd see scoring through an exhaust port.. I bet you did too... but that's OK...in a couple of weeks or months I'll look back at this and smile.

This is real-time learning... for a total newbie! Off I go to Youtube!

Oh yes... one other thing... when the engine tried to start.. there was no clunking or knocking that I could hear. So I guess that means that no rods are banging around and no aluminum shrapnel is inside the engine. So hopefully that's a good sign.

Another thing... the compression test was 50lbs.. don't know if that tells you anything.


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## unknown1

Here is some other background history about this machine that was originally sitting in the "Beg for manuals thread". I may as well add it here since it may help to do remote diagnosis.

The machine was owned by a top-notch mechanic. He is too busy making money doing other things to care about this snowblower. He took the original engine off because it was "tired and under-powered". He did not have the patience to hunt for potentially obsolete parts for the Tecumseh so he just re-powered using an inexpensive Honda clone picked up on eBay. Time is money for him. In 2006 we had a major storm here in Denver and it's during that storm that the re-powered machine was laid to rest. I don't know if he stored it outside to keep his workshop clear for more pressing engagements. 
I suspect that it was a combination of stress from the bad TRAC system and being overworked in that storm that hurt the clone. He did mention that the friction wheel had to be replaced and he's given me another spare. That seems consistent with the friction drive straining against a TRAC system that was starting to seize. It's now 9 years later and so there's an extra 9 years of rust on the TRAC system that I will need to attack. Until I do that.. no engine and no friction system can possibly move this machine. I cannot push it forwards and can barely drag it backwards.

Some pictures of the 2006 storm here:
https://www.google.com/search?q=200...fPJAhXJqoMKHW50Am8Q_AUIBygB&biw=1920&bih=1046


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## Grunt

stuart80112 said:


> It will also answer one other question I had.. what's the difference between a Honda engine and a Clone.... I'll find out tonight.
> 
> I'll also be googling for "leak down tests" to figure out what that might be. From the sound of it I'm guessing it's a step by step diagnosis looking for vacuum/pressure leaks... but all will be revealed after some youtube research. Thanks so much for the hints and pointers and a direction to look in.
> 
> I think it's quite amusing that I thought for one minute that I'd see scoring through an exhaust port.. I bet you did too... but that's OK...in a couple of weeks or months I'll look back at this and smile.
> 
> This is real-time learning... for a total newbie! Off I go to Youtube!
> 
> 
> Another thing... the compression test was 50lbs.. don't know if that tells you anything.


There is nothing to be embarrassed about stuart, we all started out as newbies and "we all" learn something new from other forum members every day. Being that you have some two cycle experience, you know more than some "newbies" and will progress quickly. 

Harbor freight sells a reasonably priced leak down tester and if you were going to pursue small engines as a part time job, I would say buy it. I made an adapter years ago out of an old spark plug and a male to male air fitting to do leak down tests. I broke out the porcelain and welded the air fitting to the hex portion. I then used my air compressor set to 30-40 psi and listened to where the air was escaping. it's not fancy, but it helped find low compression problems.


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## unknown1

So now I know what a leakdown test is. 
I think I'll invest in a leak-down tester and a cheap pancake air compressor.

Here is a figure I made showing the four main types of leak and where they will show up on the outside. (I like pictures).
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1...?key=VmZhOWpaVzJveVFZQ3N2S18zM0o3aDJyR2lSeHBn

...and a video showing how to do it...


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## Grunt

I have never worked on a Honda clone and I'm not familiar with what the compression reading should be. I have worked on many Tecumseh and Briggs motors and I have seen a lot of them in the 50 to 70 psi compression range that ran great. I would wait until someone with clone experience to chime in. Your non starting issue may "not" be related to the compression reading at all and the valves, timing, carb or ignition may be at fault. If you plan on future repairs, I say buy the tools (you can never have to many).


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## unknown1

Step by Step - TRAC Drive Teardown.

I could not find any videos or photos of a TRAC Drive teardown. So, like everyone else, I decided to just jump in.

This gives a step-by-step description of what I did with photos. Trust me.. you don't want me in a video. 
Step 15 should be done first!

Photos here:
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1...?key=bWRLRFBKVXQ0U3NhYVBVTnBVczREa0VoM3l5cVZ3

Spelling is British... 

Fig 0) Exploded Parts Diagram
Fig 1) I put the blower standing on its auger housing
Fig 2) Close up of the TRAC drive
Fig 3) Remove the 2 large bolts at the centre of each wheel and pull off the plate exposing the wheels and the central chain-drive sprocket (#21 in exploded diagram)
Fig 4) Remove the bolt that passes through the drive sprocket. This releases the sprocket from the drive shaft. (#39)
Fig 5) The whole TRAC assembly can now be pulled off the machine and placed on the floor/bench. This is a back view.
...In theory, the wheels should now simply slide off their axles.. but they are probably seized.... so keep going...
Fig 6) Remove the 4 long bolts from the chain-driven wheel. (#18, #19)
Fig 7) Should be able to move the wheels towards each other and slip off the tank track now or later.
Fig 8) Put the bolts back on each axle (#21), squirt PB Blaster in and around the shaft (#25), hit with hammer to push the axle out of the wheel. (May be best to let the PBP soak but I was impatient).
Fig 9) Squirt more PB Blaster, let it run into the tiny gap between the axle and the wheel, hit with hammer.... repeat! When the axle disappears into the wheel, put a wrench extension into the hole and bang on it.
Fig 10) Just one more wheel piece to get off (#15). Notice the axle has a build up of rust. Sand off as much of the rust as you can, add more PBP, keep using the hammer to knock the axle through.
Fig 11) These are the two axles (#25) looking "fat in the middle" with all the rust buildup.. that's why the wheels were seized (or very stiff).
Fig 12) axles and sprockets and chain (#25,#15,#36,#17)... just so you know what you'll find.
Fig 13) Evapo-Rust
Fig 14) PB Blaster 
Fig 15) This should have been FIRST. disconnect the thingamajig that connects both TRAC sides together (#41,#42, hitch-pin and connecting rod)
Fig 16) Another view of the Connecting rod and hitch-pin
Fig 17) Close up of nut and washers for re-assembly.

Tonight I will be cleaning up the parts. I am going to soak them in Evapo-Rust and see how they look in the morning. Never used it before... we'll see.


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## Grunt

Great documentation stuart, thank you for posting. I have to say one thing, for a "newbie" you jump into a project with both feet. :goodjob:


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## unknown1

Here are the parts in a close-to-final state.

https://photos.google.com/share/AF1...?key=Z053ZWQzdWdTY1k5OWt5ZGlQWFFOOFFjcVY2aFJ3

The Evapo-Rust cleaned up the hardware and chain by simply letting them soak overnight. However, the axles needed a little help... soak,sand,soak,sand.
I will work on those axles just a little more to get rid of the remaining black marks. Looks like friction-melted plastic from the wheels.

In hindsight, it's probably best to use a 90-10 rule on the axles... get rid of 90% of the rust by sanding then let the soaking work on the remaining 10%. This will use up less of the chemical content of the (supposedly reusable) Evapo-Rust.

I was thinking of cleaning one of the track assemblies with Evapo-Rust and the other with mild acetic acid (apple vinegar) just to see if the Evapo-Rust is really giving value for money... but I did not have any vinegar available and just went with the Evapo-Rust everywhere. Maybe someone else will try that vinegar experiment and let us know.

On assembly, I intend to overload everything with a synthetic marine grease to give good water repulsion over time. This will help prevent rusting and make it easier to take apart if I need to in the future.

I would have liked to try Amsoil synthetic water-resistant grease but there are no retailers close by who sell it and I did not want to pay $8 shipping for a $8 product and delay things an extra week. So instead I will go with a lower-price option from my local PepBoys.

Here are the links for all those products..

http://www.amsoil.com/lit/databulletins/g1281.pdf
https://www.pepboys.com/product/details/574631/00243
Evapo-Rust Evapo-Rust Info - Evapo-Rust

(Happy Holidays)


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## bwdbrn1

Wow, lots of details and great photo documentation. Thanks for sharing it all with us.

I haven't used apple cider vinegar on any snowblower parts, but have on plenty of lawn mower, and other metal objects. The use of ACV has been discussed and documented on MLF quite a few times, and with great results. Here's one thread from over there.

Rust Removal Briggs Flywheel - Lawn Mower Forums : Lawnmower Reviews, Repair, Pricing and Discussion Forum


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## cpchriste

Nice pictures and a thorough job! Consider putting a grease zerk in the main drive bushing on each side. If you decide to do it, be careful to undersize the tap drill and not over-torque the zerk in the plastic.
The shafts will end up being a very sloppy fit in the two trac drive end wheels, I don't know what to do about that other than replacing the wheels. Good choice to use marine grease.


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## cpchriste

One more thing - does this engine have an auto compression release? If so, the cylinder pressure won't be a reliable indicator of engine condition. I suspect the machine may have been parked solely due to the tracks freezing up.


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## unknown1

cpchriste said:


> One more thing - does this engine have an auto compression release? If so, the cylinder pressure won't be a reliable indicator of engine condition. I suspect the machine may have been parked solely due to the tracks freezing up.


That's a great segue into my remaining issue... 

Now I know the tracks will be working again, I need to get the engine running. 

When I watched the engine teardown videos (earlier in this thread) he identified what he thought _might _be a compression release mechanism. However, a comment on that video says it's a counter weight for low RPM.

I'm so used to expecting to see 100 or 120 on 2 cycle engines that I immediately thought.. uh-oh scarring. That's the most expensive fix on "disposable" 2 cycles and the one to avoid....replacing cylinder and piston and ring(s). Of course, I should have stopped and realized that there will be plenty of oil splashing around in a 4 stroke engine so that concept does not really transfer over from 2 to 4 cycle engines.

I did an ultrasound carb clean and reassembly (without new parts). I don't think I messed up but I guess it's a possibility.

So once again, here are my engine symptoms....

1) Carb is clean. Non-adjustable jets.
2) Tried cold start - Various choke positions and throttle positions.
3) I know I've got spark, I think I've got fuel (even tried carb spray in the spark plug hole to eliminate the carburetor). Can't know for sure if the carb is giving the right mixture but I don't think I messed up.
4) Carb is snug.. doubt if there is any vacuum leak.
5) Engine wants to start.. coughs..splutters..backfires but does not run.

So what would you 4-cycle guys try first (it's a Honda clone)? 

I may do the leak-down test just for grins if/when I buy the test equipment and the compressor... but that's not my first choice to get it running... maybe something for later.

Any thoughts?


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## 94EG8

stuart80112 said:


> 5) Engine wants to start.. coughs..splutters..backfires but does not run.
> 
> So what would you 4-cycle guys try first (it's a Honda clone)?


Adjust the valves to 0.003" and try it again. Sounds a lot like a valve that's adjusted too tight.

You may also have a sheared or partially sheared flywheel key that's putting the engine out of time, however they will usually kick back hard when this happens. Adjust the valves first.


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## unknown1

94EG8 said:


> Adjust the valves to 0.003" and try it again. Sounds a lot like a valve that's adjusted too tight.
> 
> You may also have a sheared or partially sheared flywheel key that's putting the engine out of time, however they will usually kick back hard when this happens. Adjust the valves first.


Curiouser and curiouser. I just went out into the garage, set the blower back down from its auger housing, pulled the starter and it fired right up!

Clearly, it just needed to be stood on its nose for a day or two. I didn't know that 4 stroke engines work that way! ;-) Weird. I guess it remains to be seen just how well it will start when I need it to. 

So... once I get the zerk nipples fitted and put the tracks back on and lube it up... I should be ready to go!

Touch wood... it seems I got off lucky here. Nice Christmas present! My $50 snowblower is up and running with a spare Tecumseh engine to play with too!

One thing I did notice however, there is very little difference between full speed and idle. Even though the throttle lever moves a long way, nothing much changes. 
I will fiddle with the idle adjuster on the carb and re-check that the linkages are all connected properly on the carb.


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## unknown1

stuart80112 said:


> Curiouser and curiouser. I just went out into the garage, set the blower back down from its auger housing, pulled the starter and it fired right up!
> 
> Clearly, it just needed to be stood on its nose for a day or two. I didn't know that 4 stroke engines work that way! ;-) Weird. I guess it remains to be seen just how well it will start when I need it to.
> 
> So... once I get the zerk nipples fitted and put the tracks back on and lube it up... I should be ready to go!
> 
> Touch wood... it seems I got off lucky here. Nice Christmas present! My $50 snowblower is up and running with a spare Tecumseh engine to play with too!
> 
> One thing I did notice however, there is very little difference between full speed and idle. Even though the throttle lever moves a long way, nothing much changes.
> I will fiddle with the idle adjuster on the carb and re-check that the linkages are all connected properly on the carb.


Easy fix. It was the rod from the governor... it popped up and out of the carb. Not sure I like the look of the hyper-extended return spring next to that rod..but it appears to work.

The only problem now is that the cheesy red plastic kill switch just dropped off. That has to be the cheapest flakiest thing on this engine. It doesn't look much better on a Honda either as far as I can tell. Replacement $3.58 on eBay from China.... shipped!! That's probably $3.50 shipping and $0.08 for the switch.

Buy cheesy switch here:
Honda Kill on Off Engine Stop Switch for GX110 GX120 GX160 GX200 GX240 GX270 | eBay

By sheer coincidence, I bought some military-spec Honeywell toggle switches at auction on eBay a few days ago. I bought them to add a kill switch to my MTD snowblower over on the MTD thread. I thought they might come in handy but never imagined it would be so soon. They should arrive any day now. They are a rugged sealed construction and supposedly can withstand a hosepipe aimed at them. I think I'll go with one of those instead if I can find a way to mount it. I may bring it round and mount it in the carb area so that it's where all the other controls are instead of hanging in space off the right hand side of the engine. Awful design! Those red switches are guaranteed to break after 10 uses with cold clumsy fingers.

Honeywell switch here: (complete with Bruce Wayne actuators):
http://www.newark.com/honeywell-s-c/ms24523-30/switch-toggle-spst-15a-277v/dp/11J4976

I imagine these guys sell the cheesy red switches by the tens of thousands! Gotta love that grounding tab.. you just KNOW it will snap off... quality at its best!


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## unknown1

The Honeywell military-spec switches arrived today. I noticed that there is a pre-drilled hole next to the gear shift lever which is perfect for a replacement kill switch. I made a decal by copying the artwork from a Tecumseh carburetor box, printed it onto an address label and fitted the switch next to the gear shift lever. A little bit of self-adhesive book protector should help to weatherproof the decal. Hope to find a rubber bung or stopper to fill the hole where the old red switch was.

Photos here:
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1...?key=T2RsYmFBOUpPWTFxbjh4cEpPa1BNZWJPemRuT3NR

Should be a bit more robust than those red switches on the Honda clones.


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## unknown1

Added grease zerks and reassembled today.

6 zerks in total. One for each "full wheel" and one for each "half wheel".

I used 6mm zerks and the thread tap was 6 x 1.0
Drill size should be 1mm less than the tap diameter ie 5mm
I had to use SAE 3/16 because I did not have a 5mm drill bit (that's 4.763mm)

Used marine grease.

Pictures show location of zerks and location of spacer washers during reassembly.

Photos:
https://goo.gl/photos/j5W2g7RJtbvL6TmD7


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## unknown1

This clone engine continues to be temperamental starting.

First day:
It tried to start but spluttered and backfired and did not start

Next day:
Magically started

Today:
It tried to start but spluttered and backfired and did not start

I've been searching for articles describing the fix for these symptoms. I am finding postings saying that the valves are notorious in these engines for sometimes sticking and then sometimes freeing. I also am hearing that they are very sensitive to the brand of spark plug. Other posts describe these symptoms in relation to a mixture which is too lean. I'm at a bit of a loss which things to try because the posts I found seem to point in different directions...

1) Get a new/better spark plug and check gap
2) Check or replace carburetor (too lean causes a long-lasting burn which backfires during intake cycle) - I previously did ultrasonic clean on it.
3) Check that valves are opening and closing properly and consistently (can also cause backfire)

Previous suggestions included..
4) check valve gap
5) sheared flywheel key
6) perform a pressure leakdown test

Hmmmm...it's all new to me.....

Still intending to revisit the old Tecumseh (in pieces) in addition to getting Chonda Clone running


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## unknown1

94EG8 said:


> Adjust the valves to 0.003" and try it again. Sounds a lot like a valve that's adjusted too tight.
> 
> You may also have a sheared or partially sheared flywheel key that's putting the engine out of time, however they will usually kick back hard when this happens. Adjust the valves first.


Just capturing what I saw on another video

Exhaust clearance 0.003"
Intake clearance 0.002"

This video shows how to do the check for newbies like me...
It explains the concept of close to TDC when valves are closed and how the locking nut (10mm) and adjusting nut(14mm) works.

If just checking the gap, simply ignore the spring change and rocker removal. Apparently the rocker removal wasn't necessary anyway, you can rotate it out of the way. I wonder why he was changing the 18lb spring? Is that stronger than standard? What is he trying to achieve by doing that? Is it necessary or useful? Any thoughts? Does it help them close and seal better?


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## Grunt

stuart80112 said:


> I wonder why he was changing the 18lb spring? Is that stronger than standard? What is he trying to achieve by doing that? Is it necessary or useful? Any thoughts? Does it help them close and seal better?


 People modify the clones for go kart racing in different classes. Adding high lift cams, forged connecting rods and flywheels. Adding stiffer springs reduces valve float at higher rpm's, thus increasing horse power and performance.

https://www.ombwarehouse.com/Performance-Engine-Parts/Predator-212cc-Racing-Parts


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## unknown1

PROGRESS!! but.....

Well I bought some feeler gauges and had my first ever look inside a rocker box (or whatever you call them.... I seem to remember the word "tappets" from 40 years ago)

Although I don't have the instinctive feel for how things should feel.. the clearance did feel too tight. I had several attempts at setting them to 0.003 and 0.002. Every time I tightened up the lock washer (even with the feeler gauge in there) it seemed to also close up the gap a little bit making it too tight again. After a few attempts with the twin wrenches I eventually felt I'd got it right. I could get the appropriate gauge into the gap but could not get the next size up into the gap. Hope I got the lock washers tight enough to stop things changing in there.

Put things back together and it fired right up!

Here comes the but....

After a successful first run, I stopped the engine to try restarting a few times. 
Now it starts running for a few seconds but it cuts out and dies (no matter how I play with the choke and throttle). I checked the linkages to the governor. The flimsy spring looks..well...flimsy... but everything is connected. My instincts aren't good but it might be fuel starvation... especially since I ultra-sonic cleaned the carb... can't help wondering if I screwed up.

So now the symptoms are..

1) Every time I pull on the starter it acts like it wants to start and usually does (that's progress!)
2) but it dies after several seconds. Sometimes after revving quite strongly, sometimes after chugging along at very very low (almost stalling) RPMs

Do you have any ideas if this sounds like fuel starvation and, if so, what to look for if I re-open the carb? BTW.. I think it's a non-adjustable fixed jet carb. The nut on the bowl is... just a nut.


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## unknown1

Need some troubleshooting help on carburetor please. (Maybe I should ask this on the maintenance/repair thread)

Eventually I may give in and just get a replacement carburetor. However, I won't learn much that way. So I want to persist on this carburetor for a while.

Symptoms are this:
1) After leaving the engine cold for 24 hours.. go to start it up and it starts. Gently ease off on choke, throttle up... engine starts to run smoothly (don't know RPM until my tacho arrives in the mail).
2) After 60 or 120 seconds engine cuts out. Didn't time it.. maybe 180... but it feels about that long.
3) any attempts to restart at this point are very short-lived.
4) leave it for a while, come back, and I can repeat this.

My thoughts and guesses.
a) Fuel is not reliably making it into the carburetor. Starvation.
b) maybe the float is sticking in the UP position. Doesn't seem likely does it?
c) rubber needle seat is cockeyed or not quite right and is blocking/slowing fuel arrival into the bowl
d) By leaving it 24 hours with fuel turned on.. that might allow just enough fuel to squeeze past the needle seat into the bowl and therefore give me enough fuel to repeat the run-then-die behavior.
e) question: how long does a bowl full of fuel last?

Does the above diagnosis sound at all reasonable?
What OTHER things can cause this run-then-die state of affairs?
I prefer not to just throw a new carburetor at the engine but I may do so later.

BTW.. I previously did an ultrasonic clean and re-assembly so there's a possibility I messed up there. All I can think of is that needle seat. Is there anything else to check?

If the jets had blockages or were somehow set up wrong, I would not expect the first 60 to 120 seconds to be so smooth... or would I?

Thanks for any hints and schooling on what are probably carburetor basics.

Edit: much earlier in this thread I joked about leaving it standing on its auger for 24 hours magically fixing the starting problem. 
Maybe that too was just long enough to let fuel make it into the bowl.


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## Grunt

Hello Stuart, a full bowl of fuel will probably last about 5 minutes at idle speed? Running for a minute and dieing could be the low oil sensor shutting off the engine. Is the oil level full? You could unplug the oil sensor wire and see if the engine will run longer, indicating the sensor is faulty.

When re-installing the carb, is it possible you put one of the gaskets on wrong? All the gasket pulse holes have to line up with the carb hole or you will have stalling issues.

Carb Trouble shooting-

http://www.honda-engines-eu.com/documents/10912/31055/1480/cb2c546e-cf89-48f5-aee5-11182f91814c

Gasket alignment-

Honda GC160 Parts List and Diagram - (Type QHAJ)(VIN# GCAH-1000001-9999999) : eReplacementParts.com


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## unknown1

Grunt said:


> ...everything you said..


Thanks for the great suggestions. 

That checklist is excellent! 

It's just the kind of thing I was thinking of putting together myself as I accidentally stumble into knowledge. In fact.. that whole Honda site looks like a must-read!

http://www.honda-engines-eu.com/

It's probably mentioned on a sticky... but I have to confess.. they are still on my to-do list. So many great resources... so little time.

Edit: Engine oil check page 8
http://www.manualslib.com/manual/598871/Harbor-Freight-Tools-Predator-212.html?page=8#manual

Edit: This will help me locate the low-oil detector if that ends up being the culprit (I like to document stuff)
https://youtu.be/4AHJQ0xL7Bk?t=30


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## unknown1

Oh my, Oh my, Oh my, Oh my! Idiot!

I have too many machines being worked on in parallel... tough to keep them straight.

I got so caught up unfreezing the TRAC drive, replacing the broken red switch with a kill switch, figuring out why the augers wouldn't stop turning, reconnecting the loose snow chute, adjusting the valve clearances, ultra-sonic cleaning the carburetor...... wondering if I got that wrong.... I don't want to admit what I forgot!

Let's just say I would have voided the warranty!! You were right about the oil!! Low oil sensor saves the day!!


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## unknown1

Finally tried to run this machine and test out the lubed TRACS.

My forward gears are driving the machine backwards!
The reverse gears are driving the machine forwards!

I now understand the question kiss4afrog asked way back when I was begging for manuals!
He asked if the old and new engines both had twin shafts.

http://www.snowblowerforum.com/forum/810065-post2.html

The old engine did indeed have twin shafts (presumably with opposing rotation) but the re-power Chonda clone has only one. 

I suppose I am stuck with this situation unless I rebuild the old engine and swap it back in. The good news is... I sure can reverse out of a sticky situation in a hurry. ;-) 

I added one more picture to the "Old Engine" gallery that makes this obvious. Previously the 2nd shaft was just lying around as a spare part.

Old Engine:
https://goo.gl/photos/jbf7nsamSUMkBJeJ6


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## unknown1

Just stumbled into this video showing how to flip over the transmission.

It can solve the issue with re-powering a twin shaft engine with a single shaft engine.
Without this tweak... you end up in a situation where forward drive becomes reverse and vice versa.

Haven't tried it on mine yet but the concept should be approximately the same.


https://youtu.be/3hAwFdPZlzo?t=80


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## Hankfard

Stuart,

Did you ever find a workable solution to get a single-shaft Predator (or Honda clone) to work in place of the dual-shaft Tecumseh? Would love to know because I could not come up with the correct transmission re-engineering to make that switchover work. Although I love the Predator 212 motor, I have also learned to love my original Tecumseh motor too. Once I got the Tecumseh sorted out, it became a perfect power plant for the 536.884810/1 application. I certainly admire you for all that you put into your 5/23 TracDrive, and for providing the documentation that I was unable to provide when I did my restoration in early 2014.

We have had quite a few snowfalls so far this year (2016) in Spokane, and my old 5/23 TracDrive does not disappoint. It rolls easily, has great traction, a very nice throw from the chute, and it actually has plenty of power. My Tecumseh always starts on the first pull - as long as I use fresh gas, check the mixture screw on bottom of carb bowl, and run the fuel out of the carb bowl each time I finish using it. I did add a fuel shut off located at the fuel tank. Oh, and I always keep the head bolts and muffler bolts torqued, too.

I checked all the drive components today after 11 hours of running time this season and everything was still in tip-top order! The friction plate and drive wheel still look new, and there was no bushing wear at all. No signs of rust in my Trac hubs either. I have not done any zerks yet since the marine grade Amsoil blue grease apparently does its job very well! I do have a 17-4 PH stainless axle shaft and 304 stainless hex drive shaft ready to go when/if needed, but the need has not come up. Knock on wood!

Let me know!
Hankfard


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## unknown1

Hankfard said:


> Stuart,
> 
> Did you ever find a workable solution to get a single-shaft Predator (or Honda clone) to work in place of the dual-shaft Tecumseh? Would love to know because I could not come up with the correct transmission re-engineering to make that switchover work. Although I love the Predator 212 motor, I have also learned to love my original Tecumseh motor too. Once I got the Tecumseh sorted out, it became a perfect power plant for the 536.884810/1 application. I certainly admire you for all that you put into your 5/23 TracDrive, and for providing the documentation that I was unable to provide when I did my restoration in early 2014.
> 
> We have had quite a few snowfalls so far this year (2016) in Spokane, and my old 5/23 TracDrive does not disappoint. It rolls easily, has great traction, a very nice throw from the chute, and it actually has plenty of power. My Tecumseh always starts on the first pull - as long as I use fresh gas, check the mixture screw on bottom of carb bowl, and run the fuel out of the carb bowl each time I finish using it. I did add a fuel shut off located at the fuel tank. Oh, and I always keep the head bolts and muffler bolts torqued, too.
> 
> I checked all the drive components today after 11 hours of running time this season and everything was still in tip-top order! The friction plate and drive wheel still look new, and there was no bushing wear at all. No signs of rust in my Trac hubs either. I have not done any zerks yet since the marine grade Amsoil blue grease apparently does its job very well! I do have a 17-4 PH stainless axle shaft and 304 stainless hex drive shaft ready to go when/if needed, but the need has not come up. Knock on wood!
> 
> Let me know!
> Hankfard


Sorry to be so late replying.... I have been off the forum for about a year due to health issues and too-many-projects-burnout. 
I don't think I got an email telling me you had posted a question.

Anyway.. I know what needs to be done and can see how to make it work. However, to pull it off, I'd need to use a very hot blowtorch (which I don't have) to bend a brass-colored elbow. 
The elbow currently has an inbuilt twist in one direction and it would need to be heated and twirled to have that twist go in the opposite direction.

STOP PRESS: EDIT: I just re-watched the video I posted two or three messages back on this thread.
That video shows exactly what needs to be done (even though he's talking about a different manufacturer machine) 
Basically you need to rotate that brass-colored elbow joint through 180 degrees (as he says in the video). Actually fewer degrees on my Craftsman but the idea is the same.
If you actually try that... that's when you will notice that the twist in that elbow joint is now twisted in the wrong direction so things don't line up.
If you can "re-twist" it (with a torch) you'll be good to go.

Picture paints 1000 words...
https://goo.gl/photos/QD2qhnCcVzzMSB3C7



Coincidentally, I am working on that machine again TODAY to replace that darn Predator with a standard 5HP Tecumseh engine I picked up from another machine.
For me... that will solve my problem and get me back to having a "standard" Tecumseh twin-shaft machine instead of the single-shaft predator.

So...I'm about to start a new thread asking for help on pulley spring placement on this machine. 
You would almost certainly be able to help me on that one if you could whip off your belt cover and look at the springs and maybe take a couple of photos.

It's a l-o-n-g story but the guy who put on the Predator messed around and changed out all the pulleys for non-standard pulleys. 
I have absolutely no idea what he was thinking.... totally unecessary!

EDIT2: The pulley he switched out was the BIG pulley for the transmission drive (I don't mean the little pulleys up on the drive shaft) - I don't think he needed to switch out the big pulley.

So this repower back to a Tecumseh has taken me way too long. Should have been an hour or so but it has taken me ages because I've had to strip down both this machine and the 
other engine-donor machine to pull off all the pulleys so that I can get back to having standard pulleys instead of his insane non-standard pulleys.
I'm almost there but...in the process of doing all this... I've got one spring dangling and I don't have any photos showing me where to attach it and how to thread the belts. 
If I was billing by the hour I'd have about $5000 invested in this darn machine so far. ;-)


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## Hankfard

*Photos for Stuart - drive belts and springs 536.884810*



stuart80112 said:


> ...
> Coincidentally, I am working on that machine again TODAY to replace that darn Predator with a standard 5HP Tecumseh engine I picked up from another machine.
> For me... that will solve my problem and get me back to having a "standard" Tecumseh twin-shaft machine instead of the single-shaft predator.
> 
> So...I'm about to start a new thread asking for help on pulley spring placement on this machine.
> You would almost certainly be able to help me on that one if you could whip off your belt cover and look at the springs and maybe take a couple of photos.
> ...
> I'm almost there but...in the process of doing all this... I've got one spring dangling and I don't have any photos showing me where to attach it and how to thread the belts.
> If I was billing by the hour I'd have about $5000 invested in this darn machine so far. ;-)


Stuart,

Let's see what you can do with these photos. The long coil spring hides horizontally, right below the friction-drive pulley, and runs parallel to the the transmission case. As you stand behind the machine, the left-end of that spring attaches to the case, and the right-end goes into the the bottom of the auger idler-pulley tension lever. The spring provides the back pressure you feel when you squeeze the auger lever on the handle. The shorter spring is vertically oriented, and the top end attaches to the small lever in the middle of the transmission case. Please note that the auger drive belt is dislocated off the idler-pulley in my photos, since I have the drive belt case cracked open for these pictures.


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## unknown1

Hankfard said:


> Stuart,
> 
> Let's see what you can do with these photos. ....


PERFECT!! (I think) Thanks for taking the time to do that.
I should have mentioned which spring was causing the confusion.... 
I've got all the pulleys and springs back in place except the spring for the idler pulley on the drive belt.
I'm good to go with the auger side of things.. it's just the spring on the drive belt idler that had me beat.

Your pictures show me how to thread the belts round all the pulleys and idlers and pulley-brake. That's awesome!
Now that I can see the correct belt path, I should be able to guess (approximately) where the spring should be anchored.
I'll then cross-check my guess with your pictures to give me the confidence that I got it right.

I'll holler if I get stuck but I think I'll be OK now.
Thanks again! 

Hmm.. the forum software has changed since I was last using it... I found a "like" button but not a "thanks" button.
Anyway "thanks!" and "like!" for your answer


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## Hankfard

There should be a small notch on the lip of the trans case, straight down from the hanging end of the spring. Not very significant as notches go, but sufficient nevertheless.


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## unknown1

Hankfard said:


> There should be a small notch on the lip of the trans case, straight down from the hanging end of the spring. Not very significant as notches go, but sufficient nevertheless.


Thanks for that too... I'm sure I'll sort it out in the morning.

$2,500 labor and counting.... ;-)
To be fair... most of the time was spent totally rebuilding the tracks and adding the grease zerks... now it slides back and forth like a sled on ice... no hernias!

Oh yeah.... I recently got a similar (but different) Craftsman track machine. I used it to grab the Tecumseh engine..... and... you guessed it... the tracks are seized on that one too. 
I'm not going through all that effort to rebuild those tracks and add zerks until I actually need to use them. I'm just keeping them as a spare set of tracks for future use.
Next time I think I will just soak them in acetic acid (vinegar) for a month before trying to force the shafts out. It was a LOT of work using rust-remover and PB Blaster and a hammer. 
I feel a bit guilty because I noticed someone is looking for a set of rubber tracks.... I've got what he needs... but I'm keeping the whole track assembly as spares for my track machine.
I can't mix and match the rubber tracks because they are different lengths... but I CAN swap out the entire tank-track assembly if my current ones ever fail.


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## Hankfard

I'll have to update you on some upgrades done and planned:

DONE: 
1) Motorized chute rotation and throw - using 2 power screwdriver motors, rechargeable lithium batteries, and joystick (my brain-fart design, not for faint of heart)
2) Installed zerks, using your photos (fun)
3) Tachometer and hour meter (easy)
4) Fuel shutoff valve (easy-peasey)
5) Replaced auger skids (smartest upgrade yet)

PLANNED:
A) Machine and install custom bronze bushings in all plastic axle hubs and wheels. Stock bronze metal is on hand 
B) Or, machine custom Delrin/acetal axle hubs with zerks and custom bronze bushings/seals. Delrin is on hand; Original poly plastic is wallowing out at bit more each season, even with zerks.
C) Replace the 5/8"hex shaft and 3/4" trac-drive shaft with stainless steel pieces on hand.
D) Something else TBD (beyond "Beyond")

I probably have a similar ridiculous amount inve$ted in this old antique. I am going to find a way to make it run forever!


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## unknown1

Hankfard said:


> I'll have to update you on some upgrades done and planned:
> 
> DONE:
> 1) Motorized chute rotation and throw - using 2 power screwdriver motors, rechargeable lithium batteries, and joystick (my brain-fart design, not for faint of heart)
> 2) Installed zerks, using your photos (fun)
> 3) Tachometer and hour meter (easy)
> 4) Fuel shutoff valve (easy-peasey)
> 
> PLANNED:
> A) Machine and install custom bronze bushings in all plastic axle hubs and wheels. Stock bronze metal is on hand
> B) Or, machine custom Delrin/acetal axle hubs with zerks and custom bronze bushings/seals. Delrin is on hand; Original poly plastic is wallowing out at bit more each season, even with zerks.
> C) Replace the 5/8"hex shaft and 3/4" trac-drive shaft with stainless steel pieces on hand.
> D) Something else TBD (beyond "Beyond")
> 
> I probably have a similar ridiculous amount inve$ted in this old antique. I am going to find a way to make it run forever!


Gotta love #1 
Glad the photos gave some hints for the zerks.
All the others are just way cool (and slightly crazy!)

Here's a suggestion for "D" in your list...
So all you'll be missing is an onboard servo-system and radio remote control.
That way you'll be able to sit in the warmth of your house and operate the blower by remote control.
You may need a couple of handlebar-mounted GoPro's transmitting images back to your TV so you can see what you're plowing.
You might even be able to use a quad-copter to carry fuel to the machine when it's running low.
Wait... I'm gonna patent that... I thought of it first!
;-)


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## Hankfard

Stuart, 
Yer a good natured bloke!


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## unknown1

This might help someone some day.... 
Here's some info for anyone looking for replacement track parts.

There are several designs for the Craftsman TRAC machines with subtle size differences.
Here's a rare chance to see some of them side by side in the same photos.

Compare and contrast the tracks from a 536.884810 and 768.884800 machine.
Even though they are both grey colored 5/32 machines, the tracks are different.

One obvious difference is the width of the tracks... 
a) less than 5 inches for 536.884810
b) greater than 5 inches for 768.884800

So the parts will not be mix-and-match compatible.
However, you can probably safely swap the entire pair of track assemblies (in much the same way that you can swap them out for wheels).

Pictures: https://goo.gl/photos/tiZYUdsZ53hkR2Xv6

By the way, I know the adjuster cam on the bottom track is not set up properly... I just wanted to get the photos out there.


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## unknown1

Here's some photos showing the internal damage that can happen if you let your tracks seize up.

WOW!!!

I fully expected to see the friction wheel turned to dust.
I wasn't expecting to see the teeth of the main drive gears turned to mush.

How the heck did that friction wheel give enough "bite" to totally take out the drive gear??? <rhetorical question>

To be fair... I don't know the full history of this (second) machine.. maybe he had a bad alignment problem on the gears.
However the TRACs are certainly seized with rust so that "might" explain both sets of damage.

BTW it's a 768.884800

Photos: https://goo.gl/photos/qy4p9H8vLVYySYVn6

I'm keeping the TRACs for future use but thought I'd peek inside the transmission just for grins.


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## SkyLight62

Great thread, lots of helpful info. I picked up a craftsmanwith tracks as well. Engine runs great but the previous owner complained thedrive belt keeps slipping off. Once I finally had the chance to look at it Inoticed the spring for the drive pulley is missing. 


Using your pictures I now know where the springneeds to go. The drive plate and pulley seem to have a lot of play is thatnormal? Just wondering if the problem will be fixed by just putting in a newspring and it keeps everything tight or I will have to get a newdrive plate as well. 


By drive plate I meant he assembly pictured in theattachment.


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## unknown1

SkyLight62 said:


> Great thread, lots of helpful info. I picked up a craftsmanwith tracks as well. Engine runs great but the previous owner complained thedrive belt keeps slipping off. Once I finally had the chance to look at it Inoticed the spring for the drive pulley is missing.
> Using your pictures I now know where the springneeds to go. The drive plate and pulley seem to have a lot of play is thatnormal? Just wondering if the problem will be fixed by just putting in a newspring and it keeps everything tight or I will have to get a newdrive plate as well.
> By drive plate I meant he assembly pictured in theattachment.


Firstly... welcome to the forum! 

I'm glad the thread was helpful.... this was the first machine I ever worked on so I may have been confused and probably rambled a lot... but I tried to fix errors in the postings if I knew they were there.
It's not clear to me which spring is missing and where the play is... however there's a good chance things will tighten up and/or be adjustable when all the right parts are in the right places.

I've never had to change a drive plate (I guess that's what I call a friction disc) ... it's usually the friction wheel that needs attention because the rubber wears away.
The friction disc usually just needs to be cleaned to get rid of grime and grease and rubber shrapnel...some people also sand them to roughen them up slightly to increase friction... but I have never done that. 

How about if you get back when you have the replacement spring in place if you are still concerned? Sound like a plan? 
As always.. photos and explicit model numbers will help us get on the same page.

By the way... if you DO need to get back... start your own thread so that we don't mix up multiple machines on the same thread... that can totally bamboozle anyone who comes along later. 

EDIT: I also notice you are in Canada.. The model numbers in Canada are often different from the USA so if you find any links that relate specifically to your machine be sure to add them into your post. There's no such thing as too much information when people are trying to help. This site is a bit lacking on references for Canadian machines so your input will help lots of other people in the future.


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## SkyLight62

As far as I can tell we have the same machine. It's a 5/23 6 speed Craftsman with the Tecumseh motor. 


Part number for the spring I looked up is Murray 53704MA Idler Traction Drive Spring. Once I get this on I'll report back my findings. 


Only pictures I have right now are from the ad where I bought it from.


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## unknown1

SkyLight62 said:


> As far as I can tell we have the same machine. It's a 5/23 6 speed Craftsman with the Tecumseh motor.
> Part number for the spring I looked up is Murray 53704MA Idler Traction Drive Spring. Once I get this on I'll report back my findings.
> Only pictures I have right now are from the ad where I bought it from.


The model is close but not identical to mine. The parts are often interchangeable on close cousins.
When you get the machine look for the model decal down near your left foot as you stand at the controls.
Also get the engine model number from the etching on top of the pull-rope-cover between the gas cap and the carburetor box. You may have to look under the electric starter button if you have one.. just 2 screws to remove it.
Those two numbers tell us all we need to know.
It's always best to use your own specific model number when looking up parts just in case there's a small difference in parts numbers.


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## SkyLight62

The model is C950-52672-7

Once I get the spring I'll start a new thread to track the progress. I'll post a link here to that thread for anyone who stumbles upon this and needs info on the Canadian model.


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## unknown1

SkyLight62 said:


> The model is C950-52672-7
> Once I get the spring I'll start a new thread to track the progress. I'll post a link here to that thread for anyone who stumbles upon this and needs info on the Canadian model.


That's a great plan. Cross referencing your thread to any known USA model match will help a lot.

One problem you will have going forward is based on the different ways that Sears USA and Sears Canada operate.

The USA site has a huge database of information showing the parts and exploded diagrams for a huge number of Craftsman-USA models.
This allows us (within seconds) to find the right parts for most American models.

The Canadian Sears organization is woefully lacking in information for Canadian Models.
You may find it difficult to find any information at all for the majority of Canadian models.
Anything you DO find will be absolutely invaluable for other Canadian members on the site so please capture that information and add as many links as you can and (just in case those links go stale) consider copying that information directly into your thread in addition to the link itself..

When all else fails, you may find yourself needing to find a "close cousin" model from the American database (pretty much like you did here) and simply hope that the parts may be interchangeable.
There is risk involved there but it may be the only option you have in some cases.

Whenever you have definitive data stating which models or parts are (or are not) a correct match, please capture that information too in your thread.
It will be very very useful for subsequent Canadian users.

We'll try our best to help you with issues but in some cases these Canadian models can be a problem for us because we can't get to the necessary parts information and exploded diagrams.
The more photos you post, the better it will be for everyone and your thread will become a great reference for others. 
Something as simple as looking up a parts number for an auger belt can leave us stumped.
Most of our responses will have caveats like "I'm not sure but..." or "My best guess is..." or "It may (or may not) be.....". Sorry but that's usually the best we can do. 

Don't forget to capture the engine model numbers too. 
You should have much better luck with the parts for the engine because I think all Tecumseh models are the same in USA and Canada.  

Looking forward to seeing your thread as you get rolling and good luck


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## SkyLight62

Link to new thread: http://www.snowblowerforum.com/foru...nt-craftsman-5-23-6-speed-c950-52672-7-a.html


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