# Non-Ethanol Fuel



## NWRider (Jan 6, 2020)

Just curious if the people that use non-ethanol fuel in their machines also additionally add some type of fuel treatment or stabilizer such as Stabil, StarTron, Seafoam, etc. And if so, why?

Reason why I ask is I run non-ethanol premium (without additive) and have never had a problem.


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## crazzywolfie (Jun 2, 2014)

i run ethanol free with no additives also. never had an issue. it does seem to loose its flammability with age but doesn't clog up the fuel system just like you see on project farms video.


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## Shovel (Mar 26, 2019)

Alcohol free and seafoam here

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## Johnny G1 (Jan 28, 2020)

91 octane ethanol free and seafoam in all my small engines yr. round.


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## RC20 (Dec 4, 2019)

I run Ethanol fuel in the Snow Blower as that is what we have. The Yami is 20 years old, I also never have had an issue. Modern machines are designed for ethanol. 

I also never have run fuel stabilizer in anything. The only reasons you would want to or need to is very warm storage of fuel for long periods of time. Blower kept in a pretty warm garage and or fuel stored over a long hot summer (maybe) . 

We don't usually have that hot or extended temps even in the summer. We did have 6 weeks of 80 plus this last summer, blower is perfectly happy with that fuel from the common fuel can used for the lawn mower and blower. 

The only area I have seen Ethanol have an impact is my side car cycle, drops 4 mpg as soon as it sees a fill of that. I can live with it for the limited amount of winter miles I run. 

Some really old machines, pre 88 or so might have an issue with it seals and gaskets and hoses. I ran a 70s Bronco on it until 2005 with zero issues. 

This is an area you can't prove a negative as it were. You don't have an identical blower you just ran ethanol fuel in to compare. 

I have only seen issues in float bowls /fuel systems that were allowed to evaporate and you wound up with the varnish (and one fuel tank) - dissolve that crud into gas and you do have issues. Nothing to do with Ethanol or preservative. 

One problem with a cycle that I drained the fuel out of, O ring leaked until it swelled up again. Kept it full of fuel and no problem as it stayed swelled up. Not an ethanol or preservative issue either.


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## Tony P. (Jan 9, 2017)

NWRider said:


> Just curious if the people that use non-ethanol fuel in their machines also additionally add some type of fuel treatment or stabilizer such as Stabil, StarTron, Seafoam, etc. And if so, why?
> 
> Reason why I ask is I run non-ethanol premium (without additive) and have never had a problem.


Power equipment can get issues from gasoline for 3 reasons: oxidation, stale gasoline, and phase separation. While using ethanol free gasoline will avoid phase separation, the other two (oxidation and stale gasoline) can still occur. Oxidation results in sludge and gum build-up and products like Sea Foam can't stop oxidation but can reduce the sludge and gum build-up. Finally, many people believe stale gasoline can be restored by treatment, but not me. The best way to avoid stale gasoline is to use it up fairly quickly - 3 months.


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## 2.137269 (Nov 15, 2019)

when one takes the time to read the machine or auto's owners manual ,one finds with the exception of flex fuel motors,that can run on e85 or even pure ethanol, the manufacturer states the fuel system is made to handle what is the most common e10 gasoline, or 10% ethanol with out problems. newer specs being pushed and coming are for e15% ,which will cause more problems in older machines and auto's ,

what gets affected are the parts in the fuel system being the brown plastic floats, float needle and hoses, the ethanol tends to break down the rubber almost as if.it was being melted. 
does it affect fuel consumption? YES, does it reduce emissions? the feds and state of California say yes. but what can we do? nothing politicians and a few other groups are the only winners .

something else few seem to not know about, is the ethanol is NOT blended into the fuel when refined, it is added to the tanker truck tank when the driver loads up. when inputting the load, they are getting say 3.000 gallons. they input 2.700 gas 300 ethanol, "10%" if working legitimate, it is easy to double the ethanol making the station more money per gallon that if they cut a deal with a bad driver, or use their own tankers to load multiple stations ,

hence why ope manufacturers make the service dealer check the content of the fuel in the tank of a machine before making repairs , when we ran the shop ,we many times found ethanol as high as 30% a few times which had caused a almost right away seizing of pistons in 2 stroke machines 

as to storing e free gas, i add stabil regardless to the 91 that i can get . it' to me is a cheap insurance for a can that may sit for a few months during winter time when i don't use a lot from mowing lawns,trimming and cutting trees into firewood . plus running 91 the machines do seem to run a lot smoother.


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## Tony P. (Jan 9, 2017)

87powershiftx2 said:


> does it reduce emissions? the feds and state of California say yes. but what can we do? nothing politicians and a few other groups are the only winners .


And that pesky environment.

No one really doubts E-10 exists, not because of politicians, but because E-10 burns more cleanly than E-0 since alcohol burns cleaner than gasoline. And, although, ethanol production creates some pollution, the net benefit is clear.


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## Town (Jan 31, 2015)

91 octane ethanol free and without additional additives. What is left after the winter powers my summer engines.


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## Honda1132 (Sep 2, 2016)

Premium (ethanol free) with stabilizer. I'll add seafoam occasionally.


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## DuffyJr (Oct 15, 2015)

I'm a big fan of Star Tron as a cleaner since I've seen it work first hand and add it every time I fill my gas can to keep things clean. I add red sta-bil to keep it fresh even though I use E0.


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## orangputeh (Nov 24, 2016)

all I know is that since using E=Free gas I have no problems starting my blowers, generators, lawnmowers, etc. after a layoff and don't have to clean out carbs.

i think some stabilizer/seafoam is cheap insurance. have used Gumout in gas to smooth out several rough running Honda's within 20-30 minutes.

It's a beautiful thing.


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## Brent Holm (Oct 22, 2019)

85 octane E10 no additives and never had a single issue in 30 years running small engines.


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## TooTall999 (Nov 19, 2015)

89 octane ethanol free in all my engines, no additives, never had a problem.


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

Ethanol helps to cut down on Carbon Monoxide emissions = CO, but it does increase the Carbon Dioxide emissions = CO2, CO2 is the greenhouse gas that everyone thinks causes global warming.
Ethanol is also a strong solvent, like a cleaning solvent found in most fuel system cleaners, which many are alcohol based.


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

ST1100A said:


> Ethanol helps to cut down on Carbon Monoxide emissions = CO, but it does increase the Carbon Dioxide emissions = CO2, CO2 is the greenhouse gas that everyone thinks causes global warming.
> Ethanol is also a strong solvent, like a cleaning solvent found in most fuel system cleaners, which many are alcohol based.


Ethanol is used as an octane boost and an Oxydizer to help create Oxygenated fuel.
Naptha is a big ingredient in a lot of chemicals used to treat gasoline. A main ingredient an Star-Tron and Stabil.


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## rod330 (Oct 9, 2015)

I use 91 octane ethanol-free fuel with Sta-Bil added to *all* of our gas engines (but not motor vehicles).
I do have a few bottles of Star Tron and Sea Foam that I'll transition to once I deplete my remaining supply of Sta-Bil.

I think Star Tron and Sea Foam offer more capabilities than Sta-Bil.


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## rod330 (Oct 9, 2015)

orangputeh said:


> have used Gumout in gas to smooth out several rough running Honda's within 20-30 minutes.


Hmm....I just noticed Gumout's "Tune Up" product is only $3.33 per 16oz. can on Amazon. At least reading the specs and reviews, it seems as good as Sea Foam at less than half the cost. 

Thanks for the tip, orangputeh; I'll give it a try!

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00PP4J23W/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


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## orangputeh (Nov 24, 2016)

rod330 said:


> Hmm....I just noticed Gumout's "Tune Up" product is only $3.33 per 16oz. can on Amazon. At least reading the specs and reviews, it seems as good as Sea Foam at less than half the cost.
> 
> Thanks for the tip, orangputeh; I'll give it a try!
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00PP4J23W/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


wally world has the same stuff as gumout under a generic brand . 

but be careful to not use too much as I have read it can eat rubber and plastic parts over time. i use it sparingly so far the last couple years and have not seen any adverse results.


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## Shovel (Mar 26, 2019)

The old carbs (which weren't made for it) seem to do better than many of the newer carbs.. Some of the newer carbs have no problems while others do.
The purity of the materials or perhaps a coating that is no longer on some of the carbs is to blame..However the problem is real.
Here is a video of what the alcohol does to aluminum..While it is worst case scenarios yes...we can see that with 'straight' gas there won't be any issues.










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## barney (Nov 21, 2017)

Seafoam is about $15 for a smallish bottle in my area....not cheap.


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## broo (Dec 23, 2017)

I use ethanol free 91 octane (91 is the only way to get no ethanol here, and only at some brands). I add some Marvel Mystery oil to the fuel. I bought a case of these bottles a couple years ago. I don't know if it helps, but it sure doesn't seem to hurt. I still have many years of supply as I only use it in my small engines.


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

You could save money on the Seafoam by using 1 ounce per gallon of Marvel Mystery Oil in your gas.
The thing that Seafoam has in it is a light oil that coats and protects metal surfaces to help prevent oxidation-corrosion, plus alcohol as a solvent and a little bit of Naptha.
Stoddard Solvent is used in many additives like Gumout and Seafoam, which is an alcohol based solvent along with other petroleum distillates.
Stoddard Solvent is basically like a mineral spirit.


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## barney (Nov 21, 2017)

ST1100A said:


> You could save money on the Seafoam by using 1 ounce per gallon of Marvel Mystery Oil in your gas.
> The thing that Seafoam has in it is a light oil that coats and protects metal surfaces to help prevent oxidation-corrosion, plus alcohol as a solvent and a little bit of Naptha.
> Stoddard Solvent is used in many additives like Gumout and Seafoam, which is an alcohol based solvent along with other petroleum distillates.
> Stoddard Solvent is basically like a mineral spirit.


It's kind of contrarian that it has water attracting alcohol...the very thing everyone is afraid of as ethanol. Good tips.


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

The original Seafoam was popular years ago used to treat boat engines for storage because of the light oil in it.
When you "Foamed" an engine, you sprayed it into the running engine to coat everything and "stall" the engine out while doing it, the oils in it coated the internal engine parts, preventing corrosion and drying of oil seals and to help lube cylinder walls and piston rings.
The alcohol in it was used to help dry the water moisture in the engine,plus acted as a solvent, so it kind of did 2 things at once. 
There were some solvents in it to help break loose and dissolve sludge build-up.
You could make your own "Seafoam" substitute for less money by mixing the Marvel Mystery Oil and Star-Tron in your gas if the Seafoam is too expensive.
The Seafoam is good but not the greatest.
Your Star-Tron and Stabil contain Naptha, and no types of Alcohol. 
The Naptha helps to bind the molecules together in gasoline to slow the breakdown of them causing gas to go stale, and phase separation that is used in most stabilizers.
The old "Dry Gas" was an alcohol that was used to surround water to help it go through the combustion process and boil it off in the combustion chamber.
A lot of the Octane boosters you used to buy were nothing more than Ethanol Alcohol.


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## Shovel (Mar 26, 2019)

barney said:


> It's kind of contrarian that it has water attracting alcohol...the very thing everyone is afraid of as ethanol. Good tips.


There isn't alot of alcohol in it...and when using an ounce or two of seafoam per gallon of fuel we end up with roughly two or three tenths of a percent alcohol...not much..but can absorb a very small quantity of water..snowflakes hitting the fuel cap while filling the tank..little snow going in the tank while filling..It's gonna happen.



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## Shovel (Mar 26, 2019)

broo said:


> I use ethanol free 91 octane (91 is the only way to get no ethanol here, and only at some brands). I add some Marvel Mystery oil to the fuel. I bought a case of these bottles a couple years ago. I don't know if it helps, but it sure doesn't seem to hurt. I still have many years of supply as I only use it in my small engines.


Not alot of ethanol free fuel here as well and is sold as high octane 
Here they don't have to disclose the alcohol in the lower blend concentrations.
That makes it rough as there is no way of knowing unless you test it yourself.
Sinclair(Dinosaur) offers alcohol free fuel at some stations here.. it isn't marked as such so you have to know which pump to use (the expensive one)

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## Tony P. (Jan 9, 2017)

Shovel said:


> There isn't alot of alcohol in it...and when using an ounce or two of seafoam per gallon of fuel we end up with roughly two or three tenths of a percent alcohol...not much..but can absorb a very small quantity of water..snowflakes hitting the fuel cap while filling the tank..little snow going in the tank while filling..It's gonna happen.
> Sent from my LM-Q710.FG using Tapatalk


I certainly agree with your estimate of Sea-Foam alcohol per gallon and am sure you're correct on the possibility of getting some snow in the tank. I don't think that amount of snow is harmful but if that's your concern, you may be better off using a dry-das product like Star Tron that is designed to handle water without alcohol (to my knowledge).


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## Shovel (Mar 26, 2019)

Tony P. said:


> I certainly agree with your estimate of Sea-Foam alcohol per gallon and am sure you're correct on the possibility of getting some snow in the tank. I don't think that amount of snow is harmful but if that's your concern, you may be better off using a dry-das product like Star Tron that is designed to handle water without alcohol (to my knowledge).


I use seafoam as a maintainer as well ...while it won't clean a gunked carb ..it can clean one that is showing signs of starting to clog if you use a good dose of it.
I just treat my fuel with a small dose to try and stay ahead of the game.. The touch of alcohol will absorb a small quantity of water.
While a few drops may be nothing to worry about.. the water ends up in the bottom of the carb and over time becomes a problem. 



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## 2.137269 (Nov 15, 2019)

barney said:


> Seafoam is about $15 for a smallish bottle in my area....not cheap.


google it up barney you can make your own from naphtha,diesel fuel and mineral oil


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## snowy_maine (Nov 21, 2018)

Ethanol-free gas just became available in my area about one year ago. I now run it in all my small engines, but I still add blue (marine) Stabil to every can of gas I buy. Prior to that, I added blue Stabil to E10, and never had any issues with either 4-strokes or 2-strokes when I did, but had problems when I did not. For the record, I own a chainsaw, string trimmer, 2 cheap push mowers, two snow blowers, a boat, an old 4-wheeler, and two MCs. The boat is an EFI 4-stroke outboard, and one MC is 10 yrs old with EFI; everything else is carbed, and some pieces are 30+ yrs old. The chainsaw sits for months at a time with fuel in it, and my can of 50:1 mix might be filled 1-2 times per year, but no problems with E10 provided it is stabilized or ethanol-free gas. 

Based on my experience, you must stabilize E10 if the gas will sit. With ethanol-free gas, I don't know, but I still add blue Stabil just be be safe. I keep Seafoam around, but it is pricey and blue Stabil has always worked for me.


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## RC20 (Dec 4, 2019)

No idea what kind of problems, I have had chainsaw, mower and the blower, all get and got run on the E fuel as the snow blower gas goes on into summer months (and most of my cutting was in the winter.


Well I have had a 95 Ford as well and E fuel all winter in it as well as the 90 Bronco and the 70 Bronco. 

If anythings is going to be picky about poor fuel its an FI injected engine.




> You could save money on the Seafoam by using 1 ounce per gallon of Marvel Mystery Oil in your gas.



I guess we could get vodoo dolls and Shaman to bless the fuel as well, throw a maiden into the volcano while we are at it! We have a lot of Volcanoes up here if you can't find one handy.


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## DGR33 (Dec 17, 2019)

I use Av-gas in all my small engines. It never goes bad so no corrosion, has lead, and is around 100 octane. It works great. My generator tank is also filled with it. Yes it is more expensive but how much do you go through in a snowblower? If you you near a small airport it should be no problem getting it.


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## spiff72 (Jan 18, 2020)

Newb to the forum here. I am wondering about use of Seafoam and ethanol free fuel here too.

I bought a new Toro 826 OAE in November/December and a can of premium gas (not sure of alcohol content). I treated it with StaBil red. I partially filled the tank, and it sat for several weeks (at least three) due to lack of snowfall. When we finally got some snow I noticed that the engine surged when running with a snow-load, but it ran no-load no problem. It starts on the first pull.

I bought some ethanol free this week (90 octane) and a can of seafoam, but haven't treated the gas yet (or done anything else like draining the rest of the fuel in the tank or draining/inspecting the carb bowl).

What would be the best course of action - we are expecting some "blowable" snow tomorrow, so I wanted to ask if one of the following options might work:
1. Dose the remaining fuel in the tank to see if this cleans out the carb?
2. Dose the ethanol free fuel in the can and just top off the tank in the blower
3. Drain fuel and clean/inspect the carb, then use the new ethanol free (either with or without seafoam)?

And if I use the seafoam in any of the above scenarios - how much should I use?


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## cpchriste (Jan 19, 2014)

RC20 said:


> If anythings is going to be picky about poor fuel its an FI injected engine.



I've always assumed the opposite since FI doesn't need to evaporate the fuel to force it into the engine. Please elaborate on why FI is picky about water in the fuel?


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

cpchriste said:


> I've always assumed the opposite since FI doesn't need to evaporate the fuel to force it into the engine. Please elaborate on why FI is picky about water in the fuel?


The water will clog and ruin a fuel injector very quickly.
The fuel is not "Evaporated" when it goes into the intake tract of an engine, it is "Atomized" when the fuel mixes with air, it is only "Evaporated" from heat while it is traveling through the hot engine, mostly when it enters the hot combustion chamber, and right before it enters where it contacts the hot parts like the intake valve and walls of the intake port.
Fuel will evaporate when it sits in a carburetor bowl that is hot when the engine is not running to use the fuel, or just when it sits for an extended period of time. That is why it is a good idea to turn off the fuel valve and run the carburetor as dry as possible when you are done using the machine so you wont have "Left-over by-products" left in the fuel bowl that wont ignite and burn plus leave deposits.


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## cpchriste (Jan 19, 2014)

ST1100A said:


> The water will clog and ruin a fuel injector very quickly.


 We're talking about seconds to pump small amounts of water through the injectors. How can that either clog or ruin a fuel injector?


Putting aside the semantics of "Atomized" vs "Evaporated", my point was that water in a carburetor will stop an engine cold but a FI engine can pump the water through the injectors and then continue running.


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

Water can stop a fuel injected engine cold also, plus it can do a lot more expensive damage. The water will actually clog an injector much faster than it will a fuel jet in a carburetor.
The water wont pass through an injector like gasoline will, most times it is too thick and blocks it up. If it does get forced through, it will damage the injector to the point it will not atomize the fuel fine enough to burn properly, it will just "****" it out. Then you end up replacing the ruined injector and a good one is not cheap.
We have replaced too many to count from people getting water in their fuel and ruining them.
An engine has a lot better of a chance to pass water through a fuel jet in a carburetor than it does a fuel injector. The engine will miss, spit and sputter until it gets the water out of it and fuel returns to make it fire again, then it will run o.k. again, but don't try that with a fuel injected system.
A lot of good fuel injected systems have special expensive fuel filters that will trap or shut down the fuel flow if water is encountered in the fuel system to keep it from getting to the injector and ruining it.
Water has a higher viscosity than gasoline does, meaning it is thicker and heavier than gasoline to say it simply.


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

cpchriste said:


> I've always assumed the opposite since FI doesn't need to evaporate the fuel to force it into the engine. Please elaborate on why FI is picky about water in the fuel?


CP, a carbureted engine is more "Picky" with older or badder gas than a fuel injected engine because the injected engine atomizes the fuel much better than a carbureted engine does, making it easier to ignite and burn a bit better than a carbureted engine will.
The main problem with the fuel injected engine with bad gas is it will damage the fuel injector easier and faster than it will a carburetor jet.


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## Tony P. (Jan 9, 2017)

barney said:


> Seafoam is about $15 for a smallish bottle in my area....not cheap.


Walmart and Amazon sell Sea-Foam for $7.00(US). They may be options for you.


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## justadbeer (Oct 17, 2019)

I use regular old gas in my machines (both of my old Toro's are from the mid 80's) and have never had any issues whatsoever. The only thing I do is make sure I drain the gas at the end of the season and run all the gas out. Seems like the internet blows up with some kind of popular "issue" every once in awhile, and this whole non-ethanol thing is one of them.


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## barney (Nov 21, 2017)

spiff72 said:


> Newb to the forum here. I am wondering about use of Seafoam and ethanol free fuel here too.
> 
> I bought a new Toro 826 OAE in November/December and a can of premium gas (not sure of alcohol content). I treated it with StaBil red. I partially filled the tank, and it sat for several weeks (at least three) due to lack of snowfall. When we finally got some snow I noticed that the engine surged when running with a snow-load, but it ran no-load no problem. It starts on the first pull.
> 
> ...


You should replace your spark plug with a new quality NGK plug. The plug that came on my 2017 Toro 826 started giving problems after 10-15 hours...the machine started surging and after a few more hours it started chugging when in the snow ..it soon got so bad that it would cut out as soon as it hit the snow face. New NGK plug fixed it.
It's hard to believe that your first gas purchase with Stabil would be bad after just a month and your brand new carb would already be showing bad gas problems....but who knows.


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## spiff72 (Jan 18, 2020)

barney said:


> You should replace your spark plug with a new quality NGK plug. The plug that came on my 2017 Toro 826 started giving problems after 10-15 hours...the machine started surging and after a few more hours it started chugging when in the snow ..it soon got so bad that it would cut out as soon as it hit the snow face. New NGK plug fixed it.
> It's hard to believe that your first gas purchase with Stabil would be bad after just a month and your brand new carb would already be showing bad gas problems....but who knows.


Well, I threw everything in my arsenal at it tonight. Replaced spark plug with NGK, removed carb bowl and ran a fine wire into the (main?) jet that is visible when the bowl is dropped, and filled the tank with the ethanol free fuel, which I treated with roughly 2-3 ounces of Seafoam (2 gallon can). The effort put into the main jet was really half-a$$3d - I didn't have a very long wire and the one i had was very thin, so it likely didn't do much.

Started it up, and it honestly ran GREAT! The snow wasn't very heavy or deep, but zero surging when under load - I even cranked the drive speed up to max to try to load it up. I don't know what the fix really was, but I actually think it may have been the spark plug. The plug I removed was a Bosch. I didn't drain the gas that was in the tank (just the float bowl), so I can't imagine the fuel change would be that immediate and obvious.


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## BlowerMods1 (Jan 11, 2020)

Ethanol Removal






Use premium gas as ethanol removal depletes octane. Removal of ethanol from premium fuel will leave you with slightly more octane than regular.

Use 8 oz. of water per gallon to remove ethanol from fuel. One quart per four gallons.


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## sscotsman (Dec 8, 2010)

justadbeer said:


> Seems like the internet blows up with some kind of popular "issue" every once in awhile, and this whole non-ethanol thing is one of them.



No it isn't. 
This is a real legit issue, ethanol in gas causes all kinds of problems, its bad stuff, and you will be much better off in the long run if you can find and use ethanol-free gas for your snowblowers, mowers, etc.




justadbeer said:


> The only thing I do is make sure I drain the gas at the end of the season and run all the gas out.



excellent! 99% of people don't do that. 
which is why there is so much trouble with ethanol..


Even for those of us who do take better care than most, non-ethanol is still a smart idea if you can find it..
It's definitely not a myth..


Scot


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## orangputeh (Nov 24, 2016)

90% issues I deal with are gas issues so hoping that people keep using ethanol gas and leaving old gas in tanks.

seriously , its frustrating but i have cleaned out hundreds of carbs in the last 3 years because of this. use E Free gas and these problems go away and i'll be out of business.....lol.


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## crazzywolfie (Jun 2, 2014)

orangputeh said:


> use E Free gas and these problems go away and i'll be out of business.....lol.


not entirely. e free gas still goes bad but it is less likely to clog/gum up the carb which should make it a lot easier to fix or get going again. it does seem to loose its kick with age as you see in projects farms video about fuels and additives. engines will still run on it but sometimes it can be trickier to get them started.


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## orangputeh (Nov 24, 2016)

crazzywolfie said:


> not entirely. e free gas still goes bad but it is less likely to clog/gum up the carb which should make it a lot easier to fix or get going again. it does seem to loose its kick with age as you see in projects farms video about fuels and additives. engines will still run on it but sometimes it can be trickier to get them started.


that's why I also said use fresh gas.......in a previous post.


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## Shovel (Mar 26, 2019)

BlowerMods1 said:


> Ethanol Removal
> 
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HdDEL7WLN5U
> 
> ...


Alcohol is actually very high in Octane..removing it will actually lower the octane of your remaining fuel.
This can leave you with very low octane fuel and cause pre ignition which is damaging to the engine.




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## rfw1953 (Oct 11, 2017)

orangputeh said:


> 90% issues I deal with are gas issues so hoping that people keep using ethanol gas and leaving old gas in tanks.
> 
> seriously , its frustrating but i have cleaned out hundreds of carbs in the last 3 years because of this. use E Free gas and these problems go away and i'll be out of business.....lol.


:grin::grin::grin:

I only use 91 Octane E-free Gas in all my equipment. I don't put any additives in my machines, and I never have any issues. That said... before I started using E-Free Gas, I replaced my share of carburetors simply because I was too lazy to use additives or remove the old gas. IMHO, There aren't any shortcuts. Pay for a better E-Free Gas, or additives/remove old gas, or pay for carb repairs or replacements. To me, it's that simple...


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

Shovel said:


> Alcohol is actually very high in Octane..removing it will actually lower the octane of your remaining fuel.
> This can leave you with very low octane fuel and cause pre ignition which is damaging to the engine.
> 
> 
> ...


Shovel is correct about that.
Most of the octane booster that people buy at the store has alcohol as the active ingredient in it to boost the octane rating.
Almost all octane boosters are alcohol based.


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## BlowerMods1 (Jan 11, 2020)

Shovel said:


> Alcohol is actually very high in Octane..removing it will actually lower the octane of your remaining fuel.
> This can leave you with very low octane fuel and cause pre ignition which is damaging to the engine.
> 
> 
> ...


That's why you use premium. You will loose some octane but you will still wind up with more octane than you would have with regular.


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## RC20 (Dec 4, 2019)

Guys, the only gas that has no stuff in it is called White Gas and I don't know if you can get it. I doubt your Ethanol free is White Gas. 





> I use regular old gas in my machines (both of my old Toro's are from the mid 80's) and have never had any issues whatsoever. The only thing I do is make sure I drain the gas at the end of the season and run all the gas out. Seems like the internet blows up with some kind of popular "issue" every once in awhile, and this whole non-ethanol thing is one of them.



I do as well, been deeply involved with 6 or 8 blower and 3-4 lawnmower and never an issue with the Ethanol fuel. 



What I do not do is drain fuel. My experience is that it dries up seals and lines and gaskets and the residue evaporates and you have varnish build up (over time) 



E-Free gas is what I call the Volcano affect. To stop the Volcano you grab a maiden and pitch her into it. Most of the time it works though its a dead end for the maiden. 



One day it goes boom and you figure it just had to be the wrong maiden.


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

I remember the "White Gas" back in the 70's. The gas did not have any of the color dye in it and no additives like detergents and very little lead. Most of it was used in camping stoves because it burned cleaner but it didn't work all that well in an engine. It didn't have a lot of additives that an engine required, but some military vehicles were designed to be able to use it if that was all that was available at the time.
The "Coleman Gas" that you could buy in a 1 gallon can was White Gas.


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## 2.137269 (Nov 15, 2019)

i to remember that white gas! it was a hightest sold by Standard oil/Americana oil company better known as amoco ,the first maker of lead free gasoline, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amoco

as to the color, what i have been buying is white/clear no dyes .


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

Good article 87.
I remember Standard Oil, ESSO, which became Exxon, SOHIO, BORON, Marathon and a couple others in Ohio and Pa. They were all Standard Oil Companies that had to change their names, a lot back in the 70's, and with all the different mergers.
That was back when they made good gasoline that had a true odor of gasoline. The companies started putting different dyes into the gas to tell the different grades, but found out it led to deposits in the combustion chambers and spark plugs, so certain high grades they took the dye out of them and promoted it as a "Clear" gas.


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## tabora (Mar 1, 2017)

87powershiftx2 said:


> ...it was a hightest sold by Standard oil/Americana oil company better known as amoco ,the first maker of lead free gasoline....


 Actually, ALL gasoline was lead-free until high-compression engines came in following the Model T era (late 1920s). AMOCO was unique in that they kept offering unleaded by using additives other than TEL far after the other major oil companies switched to TEL.

My Very Low Compression Model T (1922 with a 1926 engine) will not start easily with 91 octane fuel; 87 unleaded is the ticket. Also have to use old fashioned non-detergent straight 30 oil to keep the journals happy.


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## Shovel (Mar 26, 2019)

tabora said:


> Actually, ALL gasoline was lead-free until high-compression engines came in following the Model T era (late 1920s). AMOCO was unique in that they kept offering unleaded by using additives other than TEL far after the other major oil companies switched to TEL.
> 
> My Very Low Compression Model T (1922 with a 1926 engine) will not start easily with 91 octane fuel; 87 is the ticket. Also have to use old fashioned non-detergent straight 30 oil to keep the journals happy.


Looking good



Sent from my LM-Q710.FG using Tapatalk


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## RC20 (Dec 4, 2019)

ST1100A said:


> Good article 87.
> I remember Standard Oil, ESSO, which became Exxon, SOHIO, BORON, Marathon and a couple others in Ohio and Pa. They were all Standard Oil Companies that had to change their names, a lot back in the 70's, and with all the different mergers.
> That was back when they made good gasoline that had a true odor of gasoline. The companies started putting different dyes into the gas to tell the different grades, but found out it led to deposits in the combustion chambers and spark plugs, so certain high grades they took the dye out of them and promoted it as a "Clear" gas.



There was a car talk show that touted it, we never ran it in a vehicle but its plus was no garbage in it.


My dad used it as the base gas for 2 cycle outboard. He was mid-westerner so I suspect he knew about it from there. The idea was not to put more crud in the outboard than the oil did. 

He was a far better seat of the pants mechanic than I ever was, he could tear it down and back together and only used the book for the specs on torque. 

A lot of talk that the old rigs needed leaded, that was not true. The hotter engine did, after a lot of checking I ran a old 70s Bronco 302 on unleaded just fine.


The engine was toned down, 150 hp at a guess (two barrel carb) . Even a hopped up 302 was ok with it as long as you did not address the throttle hard all the time.


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## RC20 (Dec 4, 2019)

> Actually, ALL gasoline was lead-free until high-compression engines came in following the Model T era (late 1920s). AMOCO was unique in that they kept offering unleaded by using additives other than TEL far after the other major oil companies switched to TEL.
> 
> My Very Low Compression Model T (1922 with a 1926 engine) will not start easily with 91 octane fuel; 87 unleaded is the ticket. Also have to use old fashioned non-detergent straight 30 oil to keep the journals happy.



That is a beautiful machine. thank you. 



Gasoline has an interesting history, what we call gasoline was not readily available (memory) until the mid 30s. 

Farm tractors up to the late 40 were run on Kerosene via carburetors as rural could not get a consistent gasoline across the US but Kerosene was everywhere. 

Natural gas type were common as well for the same reasons. I worked on some generators that were natural gas. Kind of a easy fix to the mechanical room in top of the building and getting fuel up to them. Not a lot of hp in that form but they were reliable. Onnan and then Cummins used Ford engines for that. I think the 6 put out all of 60 hp. One 460 had a turbo on it and got 125 hp.


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## Sparkland (Sep 9, 2016)

My local Toro dealer told me to use pure gas for my new snowblower. He said the ethanol free was good, but the pure gas in the can was better. I cannot even figure out where to buy the pure gas. 

The older equipment works fine on ethanol gas because the orifices are larger and the new ones have been neutered by the EPA. At least that is what he says, since his backroom is littered with snowblowers that need carburetor repair due to owners leaving fuel in them all year long.


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## crazzywolfie (Jun 2, 2014)

Sparkland said:


> since his backroom is littered with snowblowers that need carburetor repair due to owners leaving fuel in them all year long.


if the fuel didn't have ethanol in it that would be less of an issue. i run e-free fuel and leave gas in my equipment all year round with no issue. even project farm found similar results. ethanol free fuel may go bad and not burn as good as it ages but it usually at least doesn't brake down and clog the carburetor. also ethanol effect the rubber parts making them harder which can cause other issues.


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## CO Snow (Dec 8, 2011)

List of outlets for E0 fuel in US and Canada:





Pure-gas.org - ethanol-free gasoline in the U.S. and Canada


Pure-gas.org is the definitive web site listing stations that sell pure gasoline in the U.S. and Canada.




www.pure-gas.org




You can buy Puregas at Home Depot or Lowe’s but in the small cans it’s about $4 per gallon. I get E0 from a dedicated pump for $2.40 per gallon (about $0.40 more per gallon than ethanol fuel).


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## orangputeh (Nov 24, 2016)

sometimes I think people overthink this. I'm lucky to have ethanol free gas near me. 

But am I wrong to advise people that regular unleaded gas treated with a gas stabilizer and rotated out every 90 days is almost just as good?

Before I found E free I was using premium Chevron gas with Stabil gas stabilizer in all my blowers and generators and had no issues unless I did not refresh the gas every 3 months.

My gut feeling is that these super expensive gas in the cans may be overkill.


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## paulm12 (May 22, 2015)

I think orangputeh has a good point. E-free may be technically better, but treated gas rotated properly is, in my view, certainly acceptable. I have very few issues with treated E-10 in all my 4 stroke engines.

tx


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## crazzywolfie (Jun 2, 2014)

but most fuel stabilizers have a shelf life of only 2 years once open so i really don't see how they can do much. even the fuel stabilizer project farm tested didn't seem like it really helped much if at all. the ethanol free fuel seemed to do better over all than any fuel with stabilizer. yes you probably should rotate your fuel but realistically how many people do? the gas that is in my lawn mower right now is going to be sitting in it till next time i use it in the spring just like my snowblower still has last winters fuel in it. i know it will start with the old fuel since i got ethanol free. if adding the additives makes you feel good do it. it is your money to spend. i have had extremely good luck with e-free and that is what i plan to keep using. it probably only costs me an extra $5-10/year over just buying regular gas which is worth every penny to me.


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## MSP Paul (Dec 5, 2019)

Project Farm YouTube has a comparison on “engineered fuel in a can”; trufuel etc... and it seems like it is actually worse for small engines. It left a nasty varnish likely due to all the additives and maybe provided slightly better wear resistance but at about 20$ a gallon. E free for me.


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## MSP Paul (Dec 5, 2019)




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