# Frustrated - no apparent options



## Fiddler (7 mo ago)

Toro has discontinued the starter motor for snow thrower model 38182 (Power lite 98cc 16" part 70-7802) Tecumseh engine. The starter is non-serviceable (can't take apart to clean or replace brushes). It operates from 120Vac, has 12 teeth and is rated at 6 amps. Nobody has this. The closest Tecumseh starters on Amazon have 12 teeth which would mean a higher gear ratio. If I could find a 12 tooth unit somewhere and the price is not outrageous, I could probably fabricate an L bracket to adapt to the two mounting hole.

Is there anyone out there who has a solution to this?

Here is Toro's notification.






Adobe Acrobat







acrobat.adobe.com





Any suggestions including parts that could be modified to work would be appreciated.

Thanks


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## Fiddler (7 mo ago)

Correction all the close alternatives have 16 teeth not 12.


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## Fiddler (7 mo ago)

I meant to say that others have 16 teeth which differs from 12 teeth, making a higher gear ratio causing the ring gear to turn faster and probably putting more load on the motor.


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## tabora (Mar 1, 2017)

Just have to go old-school, I guess... 








Toro 16" CCR Powerlite Snow Thrower-38182 OEM USED RECOIL STARTER/ LOT WORKS | eBay


GOOD USED OEM PART LOT RECOIL HOUSING AND SUPPORT. RECOIL P/N 590743 (old # 590784). THIS WHOLE MACHINE WILL BE LISTED IF YOU NEED OTHER PARTS. BLOWER HOUSING P/N 350437 NO LONGER AVAILABLE.



www.ebay.com


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

I'm genuinely surprised that something that tiny had electric start in the first place . . .


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## jbtvt (Dec 29, 2016)

Anything is serviceable, they put it together somehow, it will come apart the same way - drill spot welds, uncrimp flanges with linesman pliers, etc. Photos might help someone give you guidance on how to get it apart


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## Fiddler (7 mo ago)

Thank you! Here is someone who thinks the same way I do. I didn't over use the starter as the instructions warned. As you can see, the pinion is not really worn. I was able to get the end off, but only just the mounting housing. I'll take some more time and will share other images. You can see though that the other end is not accessible without extracting everything.
Since there are no replacements, I'll try to get it apart and check back. Thanks.


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## Toon (May 11, 2021)

That starter looks like it will come apart if you undo the two through bolts. I'm guessing the bendix drive is pressed onto the rotor shaft but you can just leave it in place. Scribe the two end bells so you can reassemble the unit after repair in the correct orientation. Its quite possible that what you have are a set of worn out or sticky start up contacts. Free up the contacts if that's your problem and reassemble for no cost. If you want to spend the money they can rewind it if necessary as well. Was there an external starting capacitor?
Using the manual recoil would be cheaper.


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## Fiddler (7 mo ago)

So the issue is finding how to free the rest of the assembly to pull out as there is only one end that comes apart. Unlike other starters, this one does not have ready access to the commutator and brushes for cleaning/replacement; the whole assembly has to be somehow released and pulled out. It is a plastic can and not a two-ended cylinder. The only part I have found as an FRU for this is the end housing on the Bendix end. That much I confirmed when I did remove the long screw and lock nuts to get that end off.

Thanks for your comments. I'm looking forward to solving the problem and learning. After all, that's why we are diy-ers in the first place, and why your comments on this site are valued.


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## tabora (Mar 1, 2017)

Toon said:


> That starter looks like it will come apart if you undo the two through bolts.





Fiddler said:


> So the issue is finding how to free the rest of the assembly to pull out as there is only one end that comes apart.


As @Toon said, that should come apart pretty easily... It looks like both end caps will pry off, as well as the cord spacer.


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## Fiddler (7 mo ago)

No there is only one end. This is a plastic can, not a two-ended cylinder. When I removed the Bendix end everything else was left in the can. Only the mounting bracket end comes off. The problem is getting the remaining contents out of the can without hopefully not compromising the plastic canister in order to examine the electrical components inside. This is why the unit is listed as non-serviceable. See below.


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## Toon (May 11, 2021)

If you do search for 105-2953 on the web there are a couple available on E-Bay for $50 an $69.00. I don't think you can fix it cheaper unless the brushes are stuck.









It is difficult to troubleshoot it from afar but if the inside looks like this picture you may be able to pull the assembly out of the housing or drill a small hole in the back end cap and drive it out. You can then free up or service the brushes. If the motor assembly is potted into the can you are out of luck. You have nothing to lose by trying this as the starter is broken already and its hard to damage a wreck.


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## Fiddler (7 mo ago)

Thank you for your research, that is going the extra mile! I'll follow up with what I encounter. Perhaps someone else cc an benefit from this discussion and your effort.


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## tabora (Mar 1, 2017)

tabora said:


> It looks like both end caps will pry off, as well as the cord spacer.





Fiddler said:


> No there is only one end. This is a plastic can, not a two-ended cylinder.


Your pictures in post #7 appear to show endcaps on both ends and a spacer for the cord entry. Your posts all seem to show different starters?


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## jbtvt (Dec 29, 2016)

tabora said:


> Your pictures in post #7 appear to show endcaps on both ends and a spacer for the cord entry. Your posts all seem to show different starters?


The line on the nut side may just be a casting mark. 

No epoxy I've found bonded well to plastic so chances are it's just pressure fit. You can try freezing it and seeing if that helps loosen things, and/or leaving a hair dryer in front of it with the can open. I only use recoil start so haven't ever looked at one of these but have never seen a 12v automotive starter that couldn't be fixed for a few dollars in copper contacts. Generally speaking it's pretty rare for windings to short or open compared to every other thing that can go wrong in a motor. Should be an easy fix once you get it out


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## Toon (May 11, 2021)

I agree with Tabora. The pictures in post #7 show a motor that looks like both end caps come off. I have worked on a lot of electric motors and have yet to see a one capped motor. Not saying this one has two caps but it sure does look like both ends come off.
jbtvt this I believe is a 120Vac starter not a 12Vdc starter so the windings will be a lot finer wire and failure of the winding insulation is possible.


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## Fiddler (7 mo ago)

I wiggled the end and if there is a seam there, it is not showing itself. I also whacked the screw flanges with a rubber mallet. If there is a real seam there it may be glued. Guess it's time for a wood chisel. And yes it is a 120VAC motor.


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## jbtvt (Dec 29, 2016)

If the wire gauge is larger that means that it's carrying lower current, due to higher voltage. The safety factor would still be roughly the same. Anything is possible which is why I said generally speaking, but even with 120v I've seen many times more motor issues causes by centrifugal switches, start capacitors, choke coils, etc than actual windings shorting or opening. It does happen and being plastic this is obviously a cheap component, so no way of knowing without a continuity test, or opening it up.


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## jbtvt (Dec 29, 2016)

Fiddler said:


> I wiggled the end and if there is a seam there, it is not showing itself.


Are those holes in the frame threaded? Can you pull it out using them? Here is a method I've used to pull fan stators, you may be able to do something similar Antique Fan Collectors Association


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

Run two screws into the holes in the body of the motor to get a grip on it, and see if it will pull out. Based on the lip around the gears on the front (and corresponding shape on the motor), it looks like that aligns it and prevents rotation and not the case, so it may simply be another boss sitting in the cup at the closed end of the motor . . .


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## Fiddler (7 mo ago)

Think I'll try a hair dryer tomorrow (a heat gun might end up fusing the plastic together - needless to counterproductive).


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## WrenchIt (Dec 6, 2020)

I read all the posts and I still do not know what is not working. When you hit the starter switch, does the starter not spin at all? Is the problem with the bendix gear? I've replaced several of the gears on some of the Toro S200's and Powerlite E's, though I usually just replace the whole motor.

Your real problem is this is the summer and folks are not putting all of their snowblower parts up for sale. Wait a few months and I'm sure you will find used starters on ebay....unless of course you are using your Powerlite as a paddle wheel for your paddle board....

Edit: In your intro, you said the starter motor quit. Since you show the starter enclosure opened, you can plug the thing in and test (carefully) if you have power to the motor. This will tell you if the switch is good. Full disclosure: I'm a retired electrician and have no qualms about doing this, but if you have no experience dealing with 120v electricity, find someone who knows what safety precautions need to be taken.


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## Fiddler (7 mo ago)

K, well videos are not practical here (20MB limit), I tried. So yes the two holes on the metal piece are threaded, but I hesitate to put stress on the unit using them. If I grasp the front of the internal unit the whole unit inside wiggles and will slightly pivot, and if I pull on it, I feel it is being held by something at the back (perhaps brushes?). So I'll go on the assumption that the opposite end DOES have a seam there and try to coax it free with gentle heat. Thanks all, be in touch


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## Fiddler (7 mo ago)

WrenchIt said:


> I read all the posts and I still do not know what is not working. When you hit the starter switch, does the starter not spin at all? Is the problem with the bendix gear? I've replaced several of the gears on some of the Toro S200's and Powerlite E's, though I usually just replace the whole motor.
> 
> Your real problem is this is the summer and folks are not putting all of their snowblower parts up for sale. Wait a few months and I'm sure you will find used starters on ebay....unless of course you are using your Powerlite as a paddle wheel for your paddle board....
> 
> Edit: In your intro, you said the starter motor quit. Since you show the starter enclosure opened, you can plug the thing in and test (carefully) if you have power to the motor. This will tell you if the switch is good. Full disclosure: I'm a retired electrician and have no qualms about doing this, but if you have no experience dealing with 120v electricity, find someone who knows what safety precautions need to be taken.


Already tried bypassing the switch and applying known power via flying leads - no soap. Thanks though. I was an electrician (motors and synchros) in the Navy in a previous life. 😉 Also retired. Basically, one fateful day last winter I pressed the button - worked, waited a few seconds and pressed again - nothing. I immediately thought it might be carbon in the start switch, so I drilled out the head of the river that held it together and examined the contacts - no carbon or corrosion. It was then I heaved a sigh and said "oh crap". Inside things look pretty "new" (no burning smell or signs of melting) so I'm hoping when I can coax it apart a quick cleaning and/or brush replacement will do the trick.


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## Fiddler (7 mo ago)

RIVET yikes. Dern this autocorrect.

UPDATE: Got apart with vice grips; one brush slipped out and the wire had been disconnected. That brush was lodged inside preventing easy removal. So I just need to locate proper size brushes, clean, reassemble and we're good! The rest of the assembly looks unaffected. The offending brush is shown lying on top of the slot with the wire next to it. Thanks folks! Maybe someone who has one of these will benefit.


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## Toon (May 11, 2021)

Try this. 

Place a socket over the gear end of the rotor, hold the body of the starter and hit the socket with a hammer. This should pop the stubborn stuck end cap off of the motor body.








I think the end cap may be stuck on the bearing boss in the end cap.








Once the end cap has popped off of the motor housing you should be able to pry it loose and service the brushes or at least determine whether the brushes or the windings are the problem.


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## Fiddler (7 mo ago)

Well I put two opposing strap wrenches on the body and squeezed to hold it,put a narrow socket over the pinion gear and gave it several whacks. Hasn't budged it. I GUESS that's a seam. If so it hasn't yielded yet.


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## Toon (May 11, 2021)

Well shiver me timbers. Your other option is to use those two threaded holes in the field frame to pull it out the drive end of the motor. Those starters on E-bay are starting to look like your best option if that fails?


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

It looks like the tail of the motor is a press fit into the case, and you saying that it moves somewhat in the case supports that. Note in the last set of photos, that the brushes are integral to the motor and not the case, so it sould appear that rocking and pulling on it until the rear is free is a safe option.


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## Fiddler (7 mo ago)

If there was an end cap that was removable it probably would be shown here. So I'll try using the threaded holes next. Thanks for all the suggestions!


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## Toon (May 11, 2021)

Fiddler said:


> RIVET yikes. Dern this autocorrect.
> 
> UPDATE: Got apart with vice grips; one brush slipped out and the wire had been disconnected. That brush was lodged inside preventing easy removal. So I just need to locate proper size brushes, clean, reassemble and we're good! The rest of the assembly looks unaffected. The offending brush is shown lying on top of the slot with the wire next to it. Thanks folks! Maybe someone who has one of these will benefit.
> 
> ...


Well done on staying with the repair.
It looks like to motor brush lead was potted into the brush during manufacture. 








If you have a motor repair shop in your area they should have a replacement brush you can buy. Take the failed brush with you or get an accurate measurement on the width, height, and length of the failed brush as well as how long the leads are and what type of end is on the lead.
Even if they don't have an exact match, get one that is slightly larger and using a piece of sandpaper on a flat surface you can modify the larger brush to fit.
Good luck and let us know how you made out?


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## contender (Jan 18, 2018)

Fiddler, great job, that motor looks pretty darn clean to me old eyes.........


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## Fiddler (7 mo ago)

Toon said:


> Well done on staying with the repair.
> It looks like to motor brush lead was potted into the brush during manufacture.
> View attachment 196901
> 
> ...


Well, now I need to find a replacement torsion spring as it snapped. These are hard to find, but a hobby outlet seems to have something close. Verifying dimensions and wire size.


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## Toon (May 11, 2021)

Fiddler said:


> Well, now I need to find a replacement torsion spring as it snapped. These are hard to find, but a hobby outlet seems to have something close. Verifying dimensions and wire size.
> View attachment 196908
> 
> View attachment 196909
> ...


In all likelihood the bad brush and broken spring is the problem with the starter, but it would be a good idea to do a continuity check on the windings to make sure they are OK before spending money on repair parts. The 50$ starter on EBay might still be the most cost effective solution. However fixing something yourself has its own rewards.


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## Fiddler (7 mo ago)

I don't think that $50.00 item on EBAY was a whole working motor but just the housing. Other places want $104.00 for a working motor. Seems a little too pricey for a used part. I'll let you know how it goes. It should be remembered that this type of motor typically gets 0-2 uses (in short blips) annually (Midwest). Though I bought it new in 2010, there is just a light glaze on the commutator, meaning no resurfacing should be required, perhaps just slight buffing. Now if it were a drill motor, vacuum, appliance, or any number of applications where the motor runs continuously, yeah, more effort is called for. The spring snapped when I removed it and tried to straighten it. Thanks, be in touch!


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## jbtvt (Dec 29, 2016)

McMaster Carr sells those also


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## Fiddler (7 mo ago)

SUCCESS!!!!
I got some 0.025 music wire and made a spring that worked and found some cheap side conductor exiting brushes (Amazon) that I shaved down 2mm to fit. Got a brush seating stone to clean the commutator. Runs like a champ. Now, it took awhile before I got the parts and make the spring, but the experience was well worth the wait, I including rebuilding the start switch.

Thanks to all for your encouragement! This is definitely a group of people who share the common value of resourcefulness and the satisfaction of solving a nagging problem while spending very little except for time (well spent).


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

Interesting that it looks like the bad spring may have died due to arcing. Looks like the lead detached from the brush, but was in contact with the spring, which then took the current until the arc point overheated and failed.

So, looks like a brush and spring should have you better than new!


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## Fiddler (7 mo ago)

No, what happened is the old spring was short and may have slipped off of the brush from a groove on the edge. The brush holder wiggled slightly which may have brought this on. The holder was held to the fibre board by two sets of tabs bent over. After bending them down better I put some epoxy over them to prevent that from happening again. There was no sign of arching (though there may have been, the brush popped out after the first blip of the starter. I decided not to use the old good spring but two (slightly longer ) I had made which rested more on top of the brush and not close to the side.

I expect no problems. The motor appears to be cheaply made what with the tabs used to hold the brush holder in place.


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## Toon (May 11, 2021)

I was thinking the same thing. The spring should be attached to a fibre board so it will not conduct electricity. You might have damaged the spring while trying to remove it. Glad to hear you stayed with the project and got it completed. Well done.


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## Fiddler (7 mo ago)

Well the way I found it when I first pulled the assembly out was the offending spring was all the way down in the brush slot ( but didn't hit the commutator) and the brush was out. I was able to safely remove the offending spring, but it was bent, and it broke when I tried to straighten it out.

Honestly, though it was a pain, it turned out to be a blessing that I was able to make better (!) springs which I feel will be less likely to cause a problem and that the issue uncovered the loose holders (which would have shown up at some point anyway), as I reinforced both of them with epoxy. The goal is: fix and forget.

I imagine many at this site have many stories to tell about numerous other instances (like fixing their car?) where they had to pull up their resourcefulness in order to rise above the nagging challenge. For cars I recommend Eric the Car Guy. Great videos he has made. Check his site out!


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

Fiddler said:


> No, what happened is the old spring was short and may have slipped off of the brush from a groove on the edge. The brush holder wiggled slightly which may have brought this on. The holder was held to the fibre board by two sets of tabs bent over. After bending them down better I put some epoxy over them to prevent that from happening again. There was no sign of arching (though there may have been, the brush popped out after the first blip of the starter. I decided not to use the old good spring but two (slightly longer ) I had made which rested more on top of the brush and not close to the side.
> 
> I expect no problems. The motor appears to be cheaply made what with the tabs used to hold the brush holder in place.


The photo of the broken spring on the tape measure is yours, right? That certainly looks like heat/arc damage from here . . . but then again, I'm not there either!


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## Toon (May 11, 2021)

tadawson said:


> The photo of the broken spring on the tape measure is yours, right? That certainly looks like heat/arc damage from here . . . but then again, I'm not there either!


Good observation, but it may also be Galvanic Corrosion caused be the copper brush lead being in contact with the steel spring wire for 30 years or so. For there to be an arc, there would have to be a path for the current to go to ground which should not be there on a brush spring. 
However I have learned never to say never, as some strange things that didn't seem possible have turned out to be true.


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

Toon said:


> Good observation, but it may also be Galvanic Corrosion caused be the copper brush lead being in contact with the steel spring wire for 30 years or so. For there to be an arc, there would have to be a path for the current to go to ground which should not be there on a brush spring.
> However I have learned never to say never, as some strange things that didn't seem possible have turned out to be true.


The path would have been to the brush and through the motor. He said that he found the lead detached from the brush . . . my speculation was that since the spring is in contact with the brush on one end, if the remaining lead made contact with the spring, that would establish a current flow through the spring. (Note I never said short - just an arc. The path does not need to be direct to ground for that to happen . . . )


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## Fiddler (7 mo ago)

God knows. I didn't see any carbon arc indications against the inside of the motor or on the the brush wire. All I know is that the braided lead became detached from the brush and the brush was out of the holder. Whatever initial cause that triggered the event is unknowable.


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