# Should I be bitter a new version HSS724A is implementing a separate choke?



## Tseg (Jan 29, 2021)

My HSS724A is 1.5 months old. My shop manual 2nd edition just arrived this week and lo and behold the integrated choke/throttle lever is migrating to a choke knob and separate throttle lever, like the 928's and 1332's. I would think nothing of it except for since day 1 my choke/startup has been a bit finicky. It looks like if you have an HSS724A with a serial number beginning with a "2" vs. "1" you'll get the separate choke. Today I broke out the shop manual and did a text book choke adjustment... removing the airbox on down to get to the adjustment screws, choke wire, etc... The result is it is certainly good enough, starting on the 2nd or 3rd revolution (electric starter), but not like a lot of videos of Honda engines turning over immediately with the first revolution. Maybe it is just my machine and a separate choke wouldn't make any difference? Maybe my machine still has to finish breaking in?

Am I bitter?


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## orangputeh (Nov 24, 2016)

go ahead and be bitter if that will make you feel better.......

put theft insurance on it. I'll steal it .

you collect $$$ and buy a new 724 and I get a free Honda

Sweet/not bitter.

winner winner chicken dinner

in my family there is always a solution ( I have a Sicilian sir name )


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## Arcticnorth (Nov 27, 2020)

Two Hondas the last 20 years, both with integrated choke in the throttle. Zero problems, no adjustments needed. My new HSS this winter has separate choke. I don't see it as an improvement, I miss the old "one hand, one handle" function.


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## drmerdp (Feb 9, 2014)

Nothing wrong with integrated choke. But I prefer the separate choke. Just saying.

Your machine will start much easier with a fatter jet.


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## Tseg (Jan 29, 2021)

drmerdp said:


> Nothing wrong with integrated choke. But I prefer the separate choke. Just saying.
> 
> Your machine will start much easier with a fatter jet.


My fatter jet just left the vendor today and is en route.


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## ChrisJ (Nov 27, 2014)

Sometimes, actually probably more often than not many features offered on more expensive items are to make people think they're getting something better when in reality they aren't.

Such as wash cycles on a dish washer.


Many many things were and are added to higher end things more for "oooh and ahhh" than actual functionality. Like meters on 1970s audio equipment. The list goes on and on.


Who cares if you have separate choke control? Can you control the choke? Does it always start? That's what's important.


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## AclockworkBlue (Nov 26, 2018)

I wouldn't. I know the feeling but you'll always be unhappy with the next iteration that comes out. Learn to love what you have, it's a great machine.


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## Tseg (Jan 29, 2021)

It would be interesting to know the backstory from the Honda engineers, why did they have an integrated throttle/choke, why did they ditch it? I certainly could see it being initially implemented as a "just works" feature, creating a more intuitive machine. Of course, in this case, it would be important the feature actually does "just work", which was not the case in my situation. Did they move away from it because it proved mechanically unreliable or did their target customer' wants evolve... had their target customer become a more involved buyer and valued the ability to manually control more aspects of the blower operation to feel more in control? I don't see Honda making design changes purely for cost reduction purposes.

For better or worse, I continue to become more immersed in my shop manual and machine... ultimately it has taken both cable adjustments and top-of-carb fuel mechanism adjustments to dial in to near-perfect, nearly meeting/exceeding my expectations. My #80 Main Jet arrives tomorrow (vs. the #75 installed from the factory) and my tach monitor in another week or two. By the time all is said and done I'm confident I'll be able to get the engine to turn over with the 1st rotation in all but the coldest environments. Then the question will be "how long will that precision last?" With that said, as I reflect upon other hobbies I have had, getting sucked in to investing time, effort and money to make the device even better than the day received helps to create an emotional attachment to the device. If it works perfect on day one then it emotionally just becomes a tool, like a screwdriver. I'm already onto the next step of customization with an auger case edge guard on order as I already accidentally gently bumped into a concrete step with the auger case.


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## tabora (Mar 1, 2017)

Tseg said:


> It would be interesting to know the backstory from the Honda engineers, why did they have an integrated throttle/choke, why did they ditch it?


All the older HS machines that had remote throttle controls also had the choke integrated, except for the HS928K1 & HS1332 which had the separate choke control. That separate choke control was carried forward into the HSS928 & HSS1332 that share most features and block dimensions, while the smaller block HSS724 carried through the features from the HS724, including the choke control. Since it was the odd-man-out, I'm betting they're streamlining manufacturing by making all the current machines more similar, using more common parts.


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## Tseg (Jan 29, 2021)

tabora said:


> All the older HS machines that had remote throttle controls also had the choke integrated, except for the HS1132 / HS1332 which had the separate choke control. That separate choke control was carried forward into the HSS928 & HSS1332 that share most features and block dimensions, while the smaller block HSS724 carried through the features from the HS724, including the choke control. Since it was the odd-man-out, I'm betting they're streamlining manufacturing by making all the current machines more similar, using more common parts.


C'mon, stop making sense. So you think it ultimately is about cost reduction / internal productivity improvement? While I could take the position they are looking to strengthen the brand by having consistency of execution... I'll use your excuse that my HSS724AWD with integrated throttle/choke was the last of the Honda breed before they started implementing cost cutting actions, thus my HSS724A is a collector's item since this current configuration was in market only ~5 years.

There, now I can finally get some sleep. 😅


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## AclockworkBlue (Nov 26, 2018)

Tseg said:


> It would be interesting to know the backstory from the Honda engineers, why did they have an integrated throttle/choke, why did they ditch it? I certainly could see it being initially implemented as a "just works" feature, creating a more intuitive machine. Of course, in this case, it would be important the feature actually does "just work", which was not the case in my situation. Did they move away from it because it proved mechanically unreliable or did their target customer' wants evolve... had their target customer become a more involved buyer and valued the ability to manually control more aspects of the blower operation to feel more in control? I don't see Honda making design changes purely for cost reduction purposes.
> 
> For better or worse, I continue to become more immersed in my shop manual and machine... ultimately it has taken both cable adjustments and top-of-carb fuel mechanism adjustments to dial in to near-perfect, nearly meeting/exceeding my expectations. My #80 Main Jet arrives tomorrow (vs. the #75 installed from the factory) and my tach monitor in another week or two. By the time all is said and done I'm confident I'll be able to get the engine to turn over with the 1st rotation in all but the coldest environments. Then the question will be "how long will that precision last?" With that said, as I reflect upon other hobbies I have had, getting sucked in to investing time, effort and money to make the device even better than the day received helps to create an emotional attachment to the device. If it works perfect on day one then it emotionally just becomes a tool, like a screwdriver. I'm already onto the next step of customization with an auger case edge guard on order as I already accidentally gently bumped into a concrete step with the auger case.


I'm surprised it doesn't turn over with first rotation. Mine starts up half way through turning the key start.


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## orangputeh (Nov 24, 2016)

Tseg said:


> C'mon, stop making sense. So you think it ultimately is about cost reduction / internal productivity improvement? While I could take the position they are looking to strengthen the brand by having consistency of execution... I'll use your excuse that my HSS724AWD with integrated throttle/choke was the last of the Honda breed before they started implementing cost cutting actions, thus my HSS724A is a collector's item since this current configuration was in market only ~5 years.
> 
> There, now I can finally get some sleep. 😅


god help us.......

you need to become a premium member. or buy us all beers and pizza.

i guts work to do.......


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## Tseg (Jan 29, 2021)

AclockworkBlue said:


> I'm surprised it doesn't turn over with first rotation. Mine starts up half way through turning the key start.


Exaaaactly. This has been my point that out of the box my blower is not adjusted perfectly. I know where I need to get to (the place your machine is at), and it is much better now than day 1. But it is hard to justify my trying to take it to the shop under warranty to be "fixed" when it is taking (only) up to 2 engine rotations to turn over... on any other snow blower that would be two-thumbs-up. If my choke was not integrated it might help me dissect the necessary adjustment better, but with one cable moving multiple parts, they all seem to interact in relation to each other. It adds a bit to the challenge of nailing the adjustment.


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## AclockworkBlue (Nov 26, 2018)

Tseg said:


> Exaaaactly. This has been my point that out of the box my blower is not adjusted perfectly. I know where I need to get to (the place your machine is at), and it is much better now than day 1. But it is hard to justify my trying to take it to the shop under warranty to be "fixed" when it is taking (only) up to 2 engine rotations to turn over... on any other snow blower that would be two-thumbs-up. If my choke was not integrated it might help me dissect the necessary adjustment better, but with one cable moving multiple parts, they all seem to interact in relation to each other. It adds a bit to the challenge of nailing the adjustment.


Well good luck buddy. I hope you dial it in just where you want it.


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## tabora (Mar 1, 2017)

Tseg said:


> If my choke was not integrated it might help me dissect the necessary adjustment better, but with one cable moving multiple parts, they all seem to interact in relation to each other. It adds a bit to the challenge of nailing the adjustment.


As I mentioned, most Honda two stages have used your choke setup for many years. The Max RPM, Idle RPM and Choke adjustment are three separate steps in the procedure, that need to be done sequentially...


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## Tseg (Jan 29, 2021)

tabora said:


> As I mentioned, most Honda two stages have used your choke setup for many years. The Max RPM, Idle RPM and Choke adjustment are three separate steps in the procedure, that need to be done sequentially...


Right. At this point I need to wait for my Tachometer to arrive because that is actually needed before starting sequence 1 to dial in Max RPM... even more important since I'll also be adding a bigger jet which will additionally throw the factory setting out of whack. Then I can truly do things "by the book".

In summary, I don't think a separate choke cable would have addressed my need.


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## tabora (Mar 1, 2017)

Tseg said:


> I'll also be adding a bigger jet which will additionally throw the factory setting out of whack.


The jet size change does not change the RPMs. An engine is an air pump and the throttle controls the volume of the overall mixture flow, of which fuel is by far the minority component.


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## Tseg (Jan 29, 2021)

tabora said:


> The jet size change does not change the RPMs.


Ok, thanks for the guidance.


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## ChrisJ (Nov 27, 2014)

I'm not so sure I agree.

When you switch between fuels IE lpg, natural gas etc the throttle changes for the same rpm due to different amounts of energy in the fuels. This leads me to believe an engine running lean on gasoline will run lower rpm than one running slightly richer with the same governor setting.


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## tabora (Mar 1, 2017)

tabora said:


> The jet size change does not change the RPMs.





ChrisJ said:


> I'm not so sure I agree.


l base my statement on my personal experience rejetting my HSS1332AATD from #102 to #110. There was no discernible change in set max RPM from one jet to the other. Actual before/after RPM readings are below about 15 minutes apart. Note that with the #102 jet, the choke had to be partially engaged to eliminate the rythmic surging (over about a 400 RPM range, or +/-200) to achieve a steady RPM, while that was not required with the #110 jet. My full procedure notes are attached below. YMMV. Some people near sea level seem to have better luck with a #108 or #112.


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## ChrisJ (Nov 27, 2014)

tabora said:


> l base my statement on my personal experience rejetting my HSS1332AATD from #102 to #110. There was no discernible change in set max RPM from one jet to the other. Actual before/after RPM readings are below about 15 minutes apart. Note that with the #102 jet, the choke had to be partially engaged to eliminate the rythmic surging (over about a 400 RPM range, or +/-200) to achieve a steady RPM, while that was not required with the #110 jet. My full procedure notes are attached below.
> View attachment 176644
> View attachment 176645



Interesting.
I assume the choke on that is an actual choke (butterfly valve) and not an enrichment valve? 

I am amazed it was actually 3650 in both pictures tho, with the choke partially on to compensate in one of them. Not 3652 or 3655 etc, exactly 3650. That's impressive...


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## Tseg (Jan 29, 2021)

I'm still going nuts trying to figure out why if I apply a bit of forward pressure to the choke/throttle knob the engine starts right up exactly as it should... I barely had turned the key all the way this morning in 15F weather and the engine was off to the races. Yet if I try to elongate the cable via adjustment screws or open up the choke screw on top of the carb, or slightly open the "V" on the choke wire to replicate the same couple of millimeters of cable extension from applying hand pressure I cannot get the same result. What does that hand pressure do that the screw/wire/cable adjustments to not? As far as I can tell it seems it just compresses that choke wire with the "V" in it. Do I need to open the "V" a little more? In doing so it goes beyond the manual instruction of "make the clearance between the speed control lever and choke lever 0-5mm." I guess opening the "V" would not make the clearance less than 0mm? I just don't want to mess up the wire and am trying to not deviate from the manual.


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## tabora (Mar 1, 2017)

ChrisJ said:


> I am amazed it was actually 3650 in both pictures tho, with the choke partially on to compensate in one of them. Not 3652 or 3655 etc, exactly 3650. That's impressive...


The throttle lever was not moved during the jet swap. It was firmly against the stop. Others had mentioned to me that the jet change would not affect the RPM, and my experience bore this out. I did my jet swap on Feb 12, 2018 (Post # 435 in the Re-Jetting thread).








Re-jetting


I looosened the bowl slightly and kept making small turns until I found a spot that stopped the leaking. It was messy for sure. I added scratches to the bowl in 2 places to hopefully avoid any further alignment issues. that make me think there should be some torque specs in the shop manual...




www.snowblowerforum.com


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## drmerdp (Feb 9, 2014)

Main jet has little effect on full throttle engine speed. But can effect idle rpm.
Pilot jet (idle jet) can greatly effect idle rpm.


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## ChrisJ (Nov 27, 2014)

drmerdp said:


> Main jet has little effect on full throttle engine speed. But can effect idle rpm.
> Pilot jet (idle jet) can greatly effect idle rpm.


I suppose it (main jet mixture) would change the governed engine speed more under load which wouldn't actually matter due to the slight drop so it would never exceed the set speed.
I.E. a more correct mixture causing less drop.

I never really thought about it until now.


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## Tseg (Jan 29, 2021)

So... I just replaced the #75 Main Jet with the #80. My first start I did apply a bit of pressure to the choke/throttle knob and the blower started right up. I turned it off after about 30 seconds and tried to restart with handle in choke position but no pressure applied... started right up, but now the engine had warmed up a bit. I then let the engine cool for an hour, but not sure if the engine got cold in that time. I went out, did not apply pressure to the choke knob and started right up. So far, directionally correct. I'll try again in the morning when I know the motor will be cold. If the difference between a hard start and a perfect start is merely a Main Jet upgrade....

Also, my engine had surged during the first minute of warm-up if I moved throttle/choke lever to the throttle settings too soon. Now, I move from Choke to Fast and no surging whatsoever. I'm now a true believer in the Main Jet upgrade (my altitude ~600 ft.)


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## drmerdp (Feb 9, 2014)

Great, I certainly anticipated a cold start improvement.


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## ChrisJ (Nov 27, 2014)

Ok this confuses me.
I've seen many people complain about hunting / surging when an engine is started cold and immediately the choke is turned off as if it's wrong.

I have never seen a properly jetted carb not need some choke when the engine is cold. If it doesn't I would think the carb is jetted too rich. I've always used half choke etc until an engine warms up including cars.

A cold engine takes a while to warm up enough to not need extra fuel on something like a snowblower. Its not like starting a lawn mower when it's 90f outside.


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## drmerdp (Feb 9, 2014)

You are right, choke is definitely it’ll need to start when cold but that doesn’t mean once its running the choke needs to left on for an extended period of time. Usually that a great way to foul a plug if people leave it choked too long.

Not all carbs are created equal either. Tecumseh carbs are very basic, Honda and copy cat carbs are definitely superior.


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## RC20 (Dec 4, 2019)

I was a bit surprised when I was drooling over a 724 yesterday to see a seperate choke. Seems non Honda but we have not got to FI yet so......


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## ChrisJ (Nov 27, 2014)

drmerdp said:


> You are right, choke is definitely it’ll need to start when cold but that doesn’t mean once its running the choke needs to left on for an extended period of time. Usually that a great way to foul a plug if people leave it choked too long.
> 
> Not all carbs are created equal either. Tecumseh carbs are very basic, Honda and copy cat carbs are definitely superior.


Basic isn't the word I use to describe them...



Every carbed engine I've ever used needed partial choke until things warmed up. Everything from a 1931 model A to a 1980s Quadrajet. Dirt bikes, atvs, even my Honda ATC200X needed half choke for a bit in the winter.


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## Tseg (Jan 29, 2021)

In full transparency, by this afternoon we were up to around 40F, so still might need partial choke to warm up right in the dead of winter... but the smaller jet still had some surge in the warmer weather, until it heated up.


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## drmerdp (Feb 9, 2014)

By no means am I saying that carbs didn't need a choke. Just saying that not all carbs are created equal. Emission standards play a big role.


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