# Tracks vs Wheels, Hydrostatic drive vs the big disc



## theoldwizard1

Contemplating "moving up" and will have to if my dream of a place up north comes true and am looking for feedback.

Please only reply is you have some experience with tracks and/or hydrostatic drive. _(Those rubber wheel on a "disc" drive mechanisms look very suspect to me !)
_
Did older models use a "real" (geared) transmission ?


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## sscotsman

theoldwizard1 said:


> Did older models use a "real" (geared) transmission ?


Yes, some did, there was experimentation with geared transmissions in the 1950's and early 60's, in the early days of snowblower evolution, but they had a lot of issues and problems..then someone invented _Those rubber wheel on a "disc" drive mechanisms, _which were MUCH better than the geared transmissions, and instantly became the standard for snowblowers..this was 50 years ago, and the friction disk drive has been extremely reliable, simple, and robust technology ever since..

Scot


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## twofishy4u

I take it you're looking at a new Honda. I have a track machine now(yamaha) and have only used it in 2" of snow so far. Great traction and actually turns 180 degrees better than I thought, slides well. If you go with a friction disc don't worry they last a long time and are fairly cheap to replace when needed. Tracks seem to get nice traction compared to tires.


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## bwdbrn1

I have a tracked snowblower and I've used wheeled machines also. To me, it has been easier to handle and turn than the wheeled ones that were in their two wheel drive setting. When I'm done with the drive, I put it onto a small furniture dolly to move it around in the garage. I just tip it back a bit, and it pulls itself right up onto the dolly with the tracks. Once on the dolly I can push it any direction I need it to go.

I can't speak about the hydro tranny, but I've never had a bit of trouble with the disc drives on any I've used.


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## HCBPH

*Snowblower Transmissions*



sscotsman said:


> Yes, some did, there was experimentation with geared transmissions in the 1950's and early 60's, in the early days of snowblower evolution, but they had a lot of issues and problems..then someone invented _Those rubber wheel on a "disc" drive mechanisms, _which were MUCH better than the geared transmissions, and instantly became the standard for snowblowers..this was 50 years ago, and the friction disk drive has been extremely reliable, simple, and robust technology ever since..
> 
> Scot


I have to disagree with Sscotsman on the transmissions. Yes the Tecumseh-Peerless transmissions were used by a number of manufacturers like Murray, Gravely and a bunch of others over the years. The Murray built Craftsman machines were built up to the 80's AFAIK and I don't know when companies like Gravely quit using them (if the did stop using them). The ones I have (currently 5 snowblowers) seem very solid and dependable. The only way to damage them I've deduced has been if the intermediate shaft bolts through the chassis are allowed to come loose while using them (simple maintenance item that was ignored) and then only on the larger frame machines I have. The lower HP machines bolt in differently and I've yet to find one with mount damage on them. They were used in a wide range of style machines including walk behind snowblowers, mowers and multipurpose machines. In fact, it looks like the same basic design was used in riding mowers and tractors by many manufacturers for many years also. I've seen replacement parts still available for the various styles of Tecumseh-Peerless transmissions. Another nice thing about them, even though there are many different gear ranges available (from 3 to 5 forward speeds), the various speed tranmissions are physically the same dimentions, one will interchange with another in the various blowers and mowers.

Here's one I've cleaned up from a 80's craftsman. Other than cleanup and a damaged sprocket on the idler shaft caused by previous inept user attempts at some user misalignment during a previous axel replacement, it's still as solid as when it was originally put in:









I suspect it was discontinued more because of the company bean counters than anything else (production costs). Though it's a solid design, it cost considerably more to make and acquire than a friction disc setup would have cost. Of the 9 machines I've bought with this setup, 2 large frame snowblowers had damaged transmission mounts and then only because the intermediate shaft (the red shaft on the front in the picture) had been allowed to have the mounting bolts come loose and transmission shifted in the tractor unit while using it without tightening the mounting bolts. Even that damage can be easily fixed and the same transmission used in the unit.

IMO the switch from a gear transmission to a friction disc setup was more for cost savings and profit rather than dependability. Additionally these are sealed units so there's no maintenace to them.

Personally, I'll take a gear transmission machine over a friction disc setup any day. That's my opinion.


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## sscotsman

HCBPH said:


> I have to disagree with Sscotsman on the transmissions. Yes the Tecumseh-Peerless transmissions were used by a number of manufacturers like Murray, Gravely and a bunch of others over the years.


oh yeah! I forgot about more modern drives like the geared drives on Gilson, Gravely, etc..
while its true some of these were fine transmissions, they were also a *huge* minority..being used on a tiny fraction of snowblowers when compared to the friction drive..

I dont know exact numbers (and its probably impossible to determine) but I watch craigslist all the time for used snowblowers..based on "what is out there" in the world, I would estimate 95% of all snowblowers ever built over the past 50 years have had friction disk drives..and there are very many 30, 40 even 50 year old friction disk machines still going strong today..and the disk is still being used on most new models today, even the high-end "pro" machines of most brands..its a great transmission.

the implication in threads such as this is "hydro is better, friction disk is inferior to hydro" and that is hardly the case..the hydro can not be said to be "better" than the friction disk, its just different..

Scot


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## td5771

I have a couple of foote (I believe owned by dana now)transmissions in my snowblowers and have no problems. 

only problem I will have is mine are so old if somthing does break there are no parts around.

but i havent had any reliability problems with disc machines either.


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## theoldwizard1

twofishy4u said:


> I take it you're looking at a new Honda.


Yes, but the price on a new one is down right FRIGHTENING ! 

It is good to know that the friction disc drive systems work well and are reliable, because I would really like to buy an older, "more durable" one. (Yes, they are probably a lot cheaper than a "real" transmission.)

Has any one except Honda installed a hydrostatic transmission ? Seems expensive, but having forward/reverse speed independent of the rest of the blower all the way down to zero seems nice ! Is it worth it ?


PS I have a Wards/Gilson rototiller (late 60s, 70s?) that I picked up for $50 ! Cleaned the carb and installed a Briggs Magnetron ignition and it runs like a champ !


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## Shryp

Husqvarna has some hydrostatic transmission blowers as does Yamaha.


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## HCBPH

*Friction Disc vs transmissions*

I forgot to note the most important difference between friction disc machines and transmission machines: mice have never been known to chew on a transmission. 

I looked at a possible parts machine last summer, turned out it was a friction disc machine and didn't have the parts I was looking for. When I tipped it up, a mouse nest fell out and there was substantial damage to the friction disc from mice chewing on it. Funny thing is they left the belts alone. 

Both drive systems work, properly implemented and adjusted - both will do the job in most cases. Opinions and personal preference (along wth your check book) are the usual determinant of which style you'll get.


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## greatwhitebuffalo

*friction vs. gear drive*

greetings, my first post. this is an old thread but I was compelled to revive it. 

the gear drive transmission is the best kept secret in snowblowers. at first they all had gear drives, then slowly the entire industry changed over to friction drive, because it was cheaper. mfrs save a pile of money not making a gearbox.

a frictin drive is the same drive system used in an old record player, sure it will work, but it is no in way heavy duty. they tried it with cars in the early 1900's and eventually replaced it with planetary geared automatics

friction drive is a poor man's automatic. it allows you to just move the friction disk along the platter to change the speeds

a gear drive, is WAY better. as a matter of fact, new transmissions are being invented, patented, and made using high tech materials, and if they can get the costs down comparable to a friction drive, it will become the standard of the industry again

think about it, tractor trailers use....gear drives....i.e. a true transmission box- because they are hauling many tons of payload.

the only downside I can see is some additional weight, expense, and maintenance as the trans has to be kept full of oil, and oil changed once in a while


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## HCBPH

*Welcome*

Welcome to the forum.

I'm one of the minority in that I love the old Murray built Craftsman's with the Tecumseh transmissions. At the moment I happen to have one that's one of my keepers along with an Arien's I plan to sell at some point. Though both are around the same size, the Craftsman rolls much easier with the drive in neutral. It will pull a lot harder in deep snow than the Arien's seems to and there seems to be less parasitic power loss in the drive and virtually not opportunity for drive slippage unless the drive belt itself slips.
I've also bought several machines to rebuild and sell, but a couple were so rusted etc that I scrapped them out. I saved the transmissions in case I ever need one and anything from a 3 speed through a 5 speed will interchange without any modifications (other than shift linkage).


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## HJames

greatwhitebuffalo said:


> greetings, my first post. this is an old thread but I was compelled to revive it.
> 
> the gear drive transmission is the best kept secret in snowblowers. at first they all had gear drives, then slowly the entire industry changed over to friction drive, because it was cheaper. mfrs save a pile of money not making a gearbox.
> 
> a frictin drive is the same drive system used in an old record player, sure it will work, but it is no in way heavy duty. they tried it with cars in the early 1900's and eventually replaced it with planetary geared automatics
> 
> friction drive is a poor man's automatic. it allows you to just move the friction disk along the platter to change the speeds
> 
> a gear drive, is WAY better. as a matter of fact, new transmissions are being invented, patented, and made using high tech materials, and if they can get the costs down comparable to a friction drive, it will become the standard of the industry again
> 
> think about it, tractor trailers use....gear drives....i.e. a true transmission box- because they are hauling many tons of payload.
> 
> the only downside I can see is some additional weight, expense, and maintenance as the trans has to be kept full of oil, and oil changed once in a while


I respectfully disagree...

I would say that the cost of repair and turn around time for repair most likely also played a roll in the switch to friction drive. Friction drive allows for a snowblower to move through the EOD drifts left by municiple plows so that's plenty Heavy duty for me and it's designed purpose. Friction driven snowblowers are more relatable to manual transmision than automatic, every friction driven snowblower I have seen relies on a clutch that is either depressed or released to change speeds, while the hydrostatic transmissions are more like and automatic. Manufacturers have along way to go in reducing the cost of a gear driven transmission to that of a metal plate and spinning disc with rubber, unless they start using plastic or nylon gears, but I'm not sure anyone wants that. While a geared transmission would be nice to have on a snowblower, and if properly cared for would last the life of the snowblower, I just don't think the vast majority of owners are going to due the required maintenance. This forum represents a small sample of all owners and while most of us maintain our machines very well, Craigslist is full of snowblowers that owners are ready to cast aside for nothing more than maintenance reasons. As long as this happens and the vast majority of owners are willing to buy a new snowblower every 5-10 years, the manufacturers have no reason to install a lifetime transmission on a snowblower.


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## 94EG8

Shryp said:


> Husqvarna has some hydrostatic transmission blowers


If they're the ones I think they are they're made by GT from what I recall and they're aren't a real hydrostatic, they have what is essentially a snowmobile clutch setup with dual split pulleys and internally they use 2 cone clutches, the same as a self propelled lawnmower only a bit larger, one for forward, one for reverse. Some of the Craftsman's used these as well and they were absolute garbage, I used to work for a small engine shop and we replaced a ton of these under warranty. They're just plastic inside (so is the case) but in all fairness to them it's actually the metal bearings flying apart that was the biggest problem with them.

Honda on the other hand has a real hydrostatic unit and it works very, very well.



HJames said:


> every friction driven snowblower I have seen relies on a clutch that is either depressed or released to change speeds


The older Hondas (pre hydrostatic drive) allowed you to shift without releasing the drive clutch.

In terms of the original question at hand, we used to replace tons of friction wheels, a lot of them on a yearly basis, we get a lot heavy wet snow, ice, slush, etc here and it's pretty hard on a friction wheel. Some are certainly better than others. Old MTD, and some Ariens and Simplicitys had a nice 5" or so friction wheel, they tend to last quite a while. Newer MTDs have a very small wheel and don't last long at all. All of them will slip if they get wet, and most of them will get wet. The Honda hydrostatic units are expensive, but they don't normally fail, you never have to worry about moisture and the rest of the machine is built extremely well, the biggest complaint I have about them is the handles are a bit low.

Oh, and for a number of years Murray/Craftsman had issues with welds breaking inside the back half of the machine allowing the part the drive plate is attached to, to flex and slip, this affected about 10 - 15 years worth of machines from what I recall.


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## TooTall9957

I see the tires(with chains) spinning in snow way before my friction disc drive does...just sayin'


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## 94EG8

TooTall9957 said:


> I see the tires(with chains) spinning in snow way before my friction disc drive does...just sayin'


I've seen the friction wheel slip before the tires, with no chains lots of times.


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## ToroGuy

94EG8 said:


> I've seen the friction wheel slip before the tires, with no chains lots of times.


A friction disk in good shape with a clean contact disk wont slip. The disc system is a great idea for snowblowers, easy maintenance, easy replacement etc. A gearbox is just overkill in my opinion.


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## 94EG8

How many have you worked on? I've worked on a couple hundred, it's a design used mostly due to cost than any other reason. Some friction disc setups are better than others, but none work as well as hydrostatic drive will.

Btw, the maintenance part varies, some are really easy to change, others are a lot less fun.


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## ken53

theoldwizard1 said:


> Yes, but the price on a new one is down right FRIGHTENING !
> 
> It is good to know that the friction disc drive systems work well and are reliable, because I would really like to buy an older, "more durable" one. (Yes, they are probably a lot cheaper than a "real" transmission.)
> 
> Has any one except Honda installed a hydrostatic transmission ? Seems expensive, but having forward/reverse speed independent of the rest of the blower all the way down to zero seems nice ! Is it worth it ?
> 
> 
> PS I have a Wards/Gilson rototiller (late 60s, 70s?) that I picked up for $50 ! Cleaned the carb and installed a Briggs Magnetron ignition and it runs like a champ !


Hi oldwizard

I think many times we put to much emphases on the "so called transmission" mechanism of a snow blower. The fluid, or disk, or gears, all get the job done with little difference in feel or function to the operator. All three have been around a long time and are all successful. After all, it only drives the wheels. The real business end is still the same on most blowers, just pulleys and belts.

We get focused sometimes on just one part of a machine, which can cloud our vision of what we are really after. The whole machine needs to judged as a whole, and how it will get "our own personal" job accomplished. Also for the least cost of ownership over time is key.

I look at three main parts of a machine. The snow end, the power/transfer end , and the type of axle. Each one of these has to meet your needs. The rest is nice to know stuff but not the foundation of the tool. 

That being said... track or wheels, seems to be forth part to look at, and major decision to make. I bought wheels but if I had to do over I would get tracks. Snow blowers are a clumsy tool at best. The tracks make them a little bit more clumsy. I guess for the huge gain in traction, I'm will to put up with the extra clumsiness, for my next machine.

I tried out some tracked blowers on dry black top this last fall. The transmission had no effect on the ease of operation, and they all worked fine. The Ariens tracked Pro was the easiest to steer by far. I did not measure the tracks but it looked like the triangular mounted tracks had a little bit more track surface on the pavement.

Ken


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## HJames

94EG8 said:


> How many have you worked on? I've worked on a couple hundred, it's a design used mostly due to cost than any other reason. Some friction disc setups are better than others,* but none work as well as hydrostatic drive will.*
> 
> Btw, the maintenance part varies, some are really easy to change, others are a lot less fun.


 
Agreed, but can you quantify in dollars how much better they work?? Is it really worth the extra $$. I can't help but think that hydrostatic drive is more of a convenience upgrade rather than an improvement that makes a profound impact on performance


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## 94EG8

I wouldn't go back, I'll put it that way. I had a couple of late '80s yardman machines that used larger friction wheels and they're probably the easiest to replace, the hex shaft doesn't go all the way to the end so you simply remove the bolts holding the friction wheel on and pull it off, no need to remove the jackshaft like on most models. Even being that easy to deal with I'd never buy another friction disc machine, when they get wet (and they all do, even if it's just condensation or frost) they slip. Beyond all that with a real hydrostatic drive there's no chain and sprockets to deal with, no bushings to replace, basically nothing to service. Replace the drive belt as needed and that's it.


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## MnJim

No experience with new track drives.
I had a Monkey Ward track drive and a Craftsman 5/24 track drive both had traction but they where clumsy and slow ground speed.
My latest is a 2014 Ariens 28 Deluxe happy with the traction(no chains) maneuverability, and faster ground speed.
If the newer tracked versions are like the old version I will stick with wheeled for my needs from now on.

What kind of transmission does Ariens use on there Hydro Track units?


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## 94EG8

MnJim said:


> I had a Monkey Ward track drive and a Craftsman 5/24 track drive both had traction but they where clumsy and slow ground speed. If the newer tracked versions are like the old version I will stick with wheeled for my needs from now on.


The wheeled versions are certainly more maneuverable. Honda has a neat feature exclusive to the track drive where you can angle the auger housing/bucket down to scrape, and they don't get stuck unless you're on a steep hill covered with ice. But for the average person wheels are a better choice.



MnJim said:


> What kind of transmission does Ariens use on there Hydro Track units?


It appears to be a real hydrostatic unit, actually, I checked jack's, looks like a Hydro-Gear, I can't remember for sure I but I think they made a lot of the AYP (Husqvarna now) built lawn tractor transmissions, they weren't bad, but I've certainly seen them fail before. Tuff Torq made the really good ones in the heavier garden tractors.


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## FairfieldCT

If you are contemplating purchasing a Honda and you are one of those people who enjoys and appreciates well designed, precision built machines (toys), definitely get the Honda. It is an unbelievable snowblower and everything about it will put a smile on your face every time you use it. The paint, fit and finish is superb. The dash layout well thought out... The engine is smooth and powerful and the performance nothing short of amazing.

I have wheels. They have better balance and make more sense if you have a flat or slightly sloped driveway. If you have a steep grade you may want to consider the tracks. I think the tracks are uber-cool.

The hydro drive is a huge improvement over the friction disk. The disks ALL slip when wet, but they have been driving snowblowers for half a century and they do work. The disks are also relatively easy to replace, and if done as a regular service every few years that slipping will be kept to a minimum. The hydro is much smoother, much stronger, infinitely variable and will definitely pull you and your snowblower up the driveway and right THROUGH your garage door if you're not careful.

Look... you are going to have to spend 1500 bucks to get a decent machine. Throw in another grand and get the Honda. You will never regret it.... and every time during the next 25 years when you have this awesome snow pump with hydro drive to play with you will think to yourself how happy you are that you listened to me in 2014.


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## Jackmels

Tracks-NO. Hydrostatic-NO. Fact-Bells and Whistles Break, and are Costly to Repair. I use a SIMPLE 1965 Ariens that Runs, Works, and Throws with the Best of Them, and I've had some 50 different Machines to choose from this season, all Makes and Styles.
Remember, if it's Good, They Will Stop Making it, or "Improve" it until it's No Longer "Good".


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## HJames

FairfieldCT said:


> If you are contemplating purchasing a Honda and you are one of those people who enjoys and appreciates well designed, precision built machines (toys), definitely get the Honda. It is an unbelievable snowblower and everything about it will put a smile on your face every time you use it. The paint, fit and finish is superb. The dash layout well thought out... The engine is smooth and powerful and the performance nothing short of amazing.
> 
> I have wheels. They have better balance and make more sense if you have a flat or slightly sloped driveway. If you have a steep grade you may want to consider the tracks. I think the tracks are uber-cool.
> 
> The hydro drive is a huge improvement over the friction disk. The disks ALL slip when wet, but they have been driving snowblowers for half a century and they do work. The disks are also relatively easy to replace, and if done as a regular service every few years that slipping will be kept to a minimum. *The hydro is much smoother, much stronger, infinitely variable and will definitely pull you and your snowblower up the driveway and right THROUGH your garage door if you're not careful.*
> 
> *Look... you are going to have to spend 1500 bucks to get a decent machine. Throw in another grand and get the Honda.* You will never regret it.... and every time during the next 25 years when you have this awesome snow pump with hydro drive to play with you will think to yourself how happy you are that you listened to me in 2014.


Smoother...ok I'm with you

much stronger.....I still don't believe it

infinitly variable.....without a doubt

pulling me and my snowblower through my garage door.....My 1968 ariens will do that too!!!

You don't have to spend $1500 to have a great snowblower. I spent $250 and it throws 25-30 feet so we can talk in another 25 years about how my 71 year old snowblower is doing!! No doubt Honda makes a great snowblower. But do you really "need" to be able to shift on the fly or is it just convenient. Convenience doesn't mean improved performance. If the friction drive always gets wet, the technology would have been abandoned 45 years ago because it wasn't reliable. But it is reliable and cheap so the manufacturers have stuck with it.


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## db9938

Well, I have a disc, wheeled machine, and a geared track unit. Its not a perfect comparison, a one is 8.5 hp and the other is 6.5-ish. There is also about 50-75 lb. difference between the two.

That said, I'd look at the terrain and make that the basis for your decision. Tracks are nice for inclines, and drifts. Wheeled units are easier to maneuver, can be faster but when engaged into the snow, I have found that they run about the same. 

With those considerations, I usually go to the lightest machine first, which happens to also be tracked. It is the one that requires the least effort to operate. Especially, when the ground has been previously iced over.


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## 94EG8

FairfieldCT said:


> If you are contemplating purchasing a Honda and you are one of those people who enjoys and appreciates well designed, precision built machines (toys), definitely get the Honda. It is an unbelievable snowblower and everything about it will put a smile on your face every time you use it. The paint, fit and finish is superb. The dash layout well thought out... The engine is smooth and powerful and the performance nothing short of amazing.


I'm extremely pleased with my used HS928. It is as you said a precision built machine, it's very heavy where it needs to be.



Jackmels said:


> Tracks-NO. Hydrostatic-NO. Fact-Bells and Whistles Break, and are Costly to Repair.


That's the thing, I can't find anyone that's ever replaced the hydrostatic unit in a Honda. I used to work for a small engine shop, I've worked on tons of snowblowers, admittedly not many Hondas but I can't even find anything online about it. I'm sure it's happened to someone, but it's exceedingly rare to every have to touch the hydrostatic transmission in these things. The hydrostatic (especially if you don't work on your own machine) pays for itself over a friction wheel drive.



HJames said:


> You don't have to spend $1500 to have a great snowblower. I spent $250 and it throws 25-30 feet so we can talk in another 25 years about how my 71 year old snowblower is doing!!


A lot of parts for those older machines are getting discontinued and are no longer available, a great machine you can't get parts for is basically worthless. A lot of the newer shops don't have access to old microfiche cards either so unless they can find the model they're looking for on Jack's or Partstree (and trust me when I say this doesn't always work) you're pretty screwed unless you happen to have the manual and it happens to have a part breakdown with numbers. The safety features on some of those older models are somewhat lacking too.



HJames said:


> If the friction drive always gets wet, the technology would have been abandoned 45 years ago because it wasn't reliable. But it is reliable and cheap so the manufacturers have stuck with it.


People keep buying them so everyone keeps making them. It's cheap and it's a good way for dealers to get repeat business doing service on them. I really haven't seen many Hondas need anything besides the odd belt, shoes, or cutting edge.



We used to replace tons of auger gearboxes on various domestic models after the grease got hard and the impeller shaft wore though the brass bushings and then through the case, this never happens on a Honda as they use ball bearings and gear oil
We used to replace tons of friction wheels, again never happens on a Honda due to the hydrostatic drive.
We replaced tons of control cables on domestic models, never happens on a Honda, they're a much thicker cable and they're coated
We used to do tons of carb rebuilds on anything with a Tecumseh, never on a Honda (although in this regard even the cheap chinese engines are good, they actually run quite smooth and it's pretty rare to have carb issues)
I've worked on some reasonable recent Ariens and Simplicity machines, and they are nice machines, don't get me wrong, they're well built with quality parts, but they aren't the precision instrument a Honda or Yamaha is.


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## FairfieldCT

As far as the hydro drive goes, think about this... It's essentially the same technology they use in bulldozers and excavators. Now how well do you think a friction disk would do in that application?


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## HJames

FairfieldCT said:


> As far as the hydro drive goes, think about this... It's essentially the same technology they use in bulldozers and excavators. Now how well do you think a friction disk would do in that application?


You're comparing apples and oranges.

As far as parts availability, when the design is simple you can always have parts fabricated. Try having a new hydrostatic drive fabricated in 40 years


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## FairfieldCT

HJames said:


> You're comparing apples and oranges.
> 
> As far as parts availability, when the design is simple you can always have parts fabricated. Try having a new hydrostatic drive fabricated in 40 years


Why is it apples and oranges? Isn't it the same technology? It's really strong, and over the years things do advance. I only have one blower to go by but I feel my hydro drive is infinitely stronger than any of the last 4 friction drive units I have owned. Further, I have a 20 year old Deere 345 garden tractor with honest to goodness hydro drive. It has been smooth, strong and completely bulletproof (and maintenance free) for the last 20 years... with a couple thousand hours on the clock. How many snow storms would that be?


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## ken53

HJames said:


> You're comparing apples and oranges.
> 
> As far as parts availability, when the design is simple you can always have parts fabricated. Try having a new hydrostatic drive fabricated in 40 years


Your right....

Actually you don't have to wait 40 years. Go down to your favorite dealer today and ask for a fluid transmission and see how long it would take and how much it would cost. Now check on a wheel and disk. They are likely to be on the shelf for around $20.

I don't buy the story that fluid transmissions don't fail, so there is no need to stock them. They fail every day. I had lawn mowers with both, they both work well and they both fail. One is cheap one isn't.

Ken


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## HJames

When you install "your" honda hydro drive on a bulldozer you can compare it to the hydro on a bulldozer. The same technology still doesn't make them the same. Bullet proof???lol!!!


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## ken53

HJames said:


> When you install "your" honda hydro drive on a bulldozer you can compare it to the hydro on a bulldozer. The same technology still doesn't make them the same. Bullet proof???lol!!!


I see your point.... 

If bulldozer technology is good for our little snow blowers, then maybe we should use jet engines on our snow blowers too, because they are proven more dependable then piston engines. 

Ken


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## HJames

And now we have a hydrostatic jet propelled bulldozer to clear our driveway All of which is possible but not needed!!


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## FairfieldCT

ken53 said:


> I see your point....
> 
> If bulldozer technology is good for our little snow blowers, then maybe we should use jet engines on our snow blowers too, because they are proven more dependable then piston engines.
> 
> Ken



That's just being silly... stubborn. If they have made advances in technology and made it affordable... why not get it if you are getting a new blower that you will live with for the next 20 years? Are you still watching a big tube tv? they still work. Are you driving a car with a standard transmission and no power steering or power windows? Are you still listening to your music on a turntable? Do you have a cell phone? 

If your current blower is not needing to be replaced, the friction drive is fine. I just had TWO ariens friction drives replaced with belts before this season. BUT, if you are buying a NEW snowblower... hydro is not a gimmick and it is the only way to go. Your jet engine analogy is just nonsense.


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## db9938

Hey, why not one of those race track driers, or am I getting a little ridiculous?


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## HJames

FairfieldCT said:


> That's just being silly... stubborn. If they have made advances in technology and made it affordable... why not get it if you are getting a new blower that you will live with for the next 20 years? Are you still watching a big tube tv? they still work. Are you driving a car with a standard transmission and no power steering or power windows? Are you still listening to your music on a turntable? Do you have a cell phone?
> 
> If your current blower is not needing to be replaced, the friction drive is fine. I just had TWO ariens friction drives replaced with belts before this season. BUT, if you are buying a NEW snowblower... hydro is not a gimmick and it is the only way to go. Your jet engine analogy is just nonsense.


Funny you bring up the manual transmission. My first vehicle was a 4 speed jeep. I tortured that jeep, twisted two drive shafts, power shifted before I really knew how to. Never had any problems with he transmission or clutch though. I've had 3 cars since all automatic, had to have 1 rebuilt and 1 replaced. Funny newer and easier isn't always better.


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## ken53

FairfieldCT said:


> That's just being silly... stubborn. If they have made advances in technology and made it affordable... why not get it if you are getting a new blower that you will live with for the next 20 years? Are you still watching a big tube tv? they still work. Are you driving a car with a standard transmission and no power steering or power windows? Are you still listening to your music on a turntable? Do you have a cell phone?
> 
> If your current blower is not needing to be replaced, the friction drive is fine. I just had TWO ariens friction drives replaced with belts before this season. BUT, if you are buying a NEW snowblower... hydro is not a gimmick and it is the only way to go. Your jet engine analogy is just nonsense.


I am glad you called it nonsense. The jet engine analogy is just taking your bulldozer transmission point to the next step. If you consider that nonsense then you got my point, as they both are nonsense.

You referred to Honda as a precision machine in an earlier post. The term "precision" in reference to any consumer snow blower is what is real nonsense.

I came real close to buying a Honda or Ariens hydro at well over $3000. When the dealers Kool aid wore off, I saw them for what they are, just another "well" made red or orange snow blower worth $1600.

FWIW, My 92 Ariens went 18 years on the same disk and wheel. Didn't even need an adjustment or grease in those 18 years and never slipped once. I consider that good design but not precision.

My Honda lawn mower's Hydro drive didn't make it five years. When it is working it changes speed with the outside temperature. This is common. The Hydro drive is a good design but no better then the disk and wheel when used in small machinery. Nothing precision about either one BTW.

I have no problem with Honda using the Hydro drive to add another bullet point to their spec list, but it is somewhat hypocritical for someone to flaunt it when the same machine still uses and old axle design.

Honda makes a good blower "but not one bit better" then Ariens and others. They all do the job very well. Just like they did back in the 50s. No rocket science needed here. They are "all" the same, with some pros and cons to each. As long as you don't drink the manufactures kool aid, your vision won't get blurred and consider any of them a precision machine.

Edit: Yes and BTW I wouldn't own a sports car without a manual transmission. Why? Because it is more fun to have the real input. 

Ken


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## RHJO51

My 2 cents... I've had many friction disk snowblowers and they worked fine, some better than others. Now I have two hondas - a HS724W, a HS 828T, and a older Yamaha YS624T. IMHO, there is no doubt that the Honda hydros are better for one major fact - the ability to set just the right speed. We just had 22" of snow and even using the Yamaha, with the lowest speed you are doing a back and forth to handle a full path of 22" snow. Perhaps with a much bigger machine that's not a problem but with the Honda, I can just set the right speed and it just goes. One hand, it doesn't ride up, and it just throws. I've never used a better machine. The ability to set just the right speed is key for me. Just my 2 cents. - Jim


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## FairfieldCT

To KEN53: And BMW cars are not "one bit better" than Chevrolet, LOL


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## HJames

FairfieldCT said:


> That's just being silly... stubborn. If they have made advances in technology and made it affordable... why not get it if you are getting a new blower that you will live with for the next 20 years? Are you still watching a big tube tv? they still work. Are you driving a car with a standard transmission and no power steering or power windows? Are you still listening to your music on a turntable? Do you have a cell phone?
> 
> If your current blower is not needing to be replaced, the friction drive is fine. I just had TWO ariens friction drives replaced with belts before this season. BUT, if you are buying a NEW snowblower... hydro is not a gimmick and it is the only way to go. Your jet engine analogy is just nonsense.





ken53 said:


> I am glad you called it nonsense. The jet engine analogy is just taking your bulldozer transmission point to the next step. If you consider that nonsense then you got my point, as they both are nonsense.
> 
> You referred to Honda as a precision machine in an earlier post. The term "precision" in reference to any consumer snow blower is what is real nonsense.
> 
> I came real close to buying a Honda or Ariens hydro at well over $3000. When the dealers Kool aid wore off, I saw them for what they are, just another "well" made red or orange snow blower worth $1600.
> 
> FWIW, My 92 Ariens went 18 years on the same disk and wheel. Didn't even need an adjustment or grease in those 18 years and never slipped once. I consider that good design but not precision.
> 
> My Honda lawn mower's Hydro drive didn't make it five years. When it is working it changes speed with the outside temperature. This is common. The Hydro drive is a good design but no better then the disk and wheel when used in small machinery. Nothing precision about either one BTW.
> 
> I have no problem with Honda using the Hydro drive to add another bullet point to their spec list, but it is somewhat hypocritical for someone to flaunt it when the same machine still uses and old axle design.
> 
> Honda makes a good blower "but not one bit better" then Ariens and others. They all do the job very well. Just like they did back in the 50s. No rocket science needed here. They are "all" the same, with some pros and cons to each. As long as you don't drink the manufactures kool aid, your vision won't get blurred and consider any of them a precision machine.
> 
> Edit: Yes and BTW I wouldn't own a sports car without a manual transmission. Why? Because it is more fun to have the real input.
> 
> Ken


Well said


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## ken53

FairfieldCT said:


> To KEN53: And BMW cars are not "one bit better" than Chevrolet, LOL


Your post speaks for itself. BMW must have the 16 oz kool aids in their showroom now. 

I rest my case. 

Ken


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## FairfieldCT

ken53 said:


> Your post speaks for itself. BMW must have the 16 oz kool aids in their showroom now.
> 
> I rest my case.
> 
> Ken


And exactly as planned, you exposed where you're coming from without my having to say one word.


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## ken53

FairfieldCT said:


> And exactly as planned, you exposed where you're coming from without my having to say one word.


What plan is this? (Many might be curious as to what it is.)

Where do you think I am coming from? (Your accusation needs to be explained to be valid.)

There is this old saying... When you are already in a hole, stop digging.

You need to keep this snow blower related for the sake of the readers. You don't want to cause another thread to be shut down.

Ken


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## ChrisJ

94EG8 said:


> I'm extremely pleased with my used HS928. It is as you said a precision built machine, it's very heavy where it needs to be.
> 
> 
> 
> That's the thing, I can't find anyone that's ever replaced the hydrostatic unit in a Honda. I used to work for a small engine shop, I've worked on tons of snowblowers, admittedly not many Hondas but I can't even find anything online about it. I'm sure it's happened to someone, but it's exceedingly rare to every have to touch the hydrostatic transmission in these things. The hydrostatic (especially if you don't work on your own machine) pays for itself over a friction wheel drive.
> 
> 
> 
> A lot of parts for those older machines are getting discontinued and are no longer available, a great machine you can't get parts for is basically worthless. A lot of the newer shops don't have access to old microfiche cards either so unless they can find the model they're looking for on Jack's or Partstree (and trust me when I say this doesn't always work) you're pretty screwed unless you happen to have the manual and it happens to have a part breakdown with numbers. The safety features on some of those older models are somewhat lacking too.
> 
> 
> 
> People keep buying them so everyone keeps making them. It's cheap and it's a good way for dealers to get repeat business doing service on them. I really haven't seen many Hondas need anything besides the odd belt, shoes, or cutting edge.
> 
> 
> 
> We used to replace tons of auger gearboxes on various domestic models after the grease got hard and the impeller shaft wore though the brass bushings and then through the case, this never happens on a Honda as they use ball bearings and gear oil
> We used to replace tons of friction wheels, again never happens on a Honda due to the hydrostatic drive.
> We replaced tons of control cables on domestic models, never happens on a Honda, they're a much thicker cable and they're coated
> *We used to do tons of carb rebuilds on anything with a Tecumseh, never on a Honda (although in this regard even the cheap chinese engines are good, they actually run quite smooth and it's pretty rare to have carb issues)*
> I've worked on some reasonable recent Ariens and Simplicity machines, and they are nice machines, don't get me wrong, they're well built with quality parts, but they aren't the precision instrument a Honda or Yamaha is.



This is a fairly old thread and I enjoyed the read but after reading this I had to respond.

99% of carb rebuilds are due to machines sitting around and the carbs getting gummed up. There's nothing magical or mystical about a Honda carb that prevents this and to be honest I feel a Tecumseh Snow King carb is just as good as a Honda carb in regards to how it's made and performs.

Don't get me wrong, I love Honda small engines. I have a pressure washer with a GX200 on it that I bought used with a gummed up carb and I have a Honda lawnmower with a GSV160 on it I bought new that I maintain so I don't have problems. My neighbor has a Honda HSS622 that even after I worked on the carb it's still having issues from sitting.

Honda snowblowers are awesome machines and Honda makes a fantastic small engine but they suffer from the same carburetor problems all of them do when they are neglected. I've seen just as many Hondas (and Chinese Honda knockoffs) running on half choke and hunting as any other brand.


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## 94EG8

ChrisJ said:


> 99% of carb rebuilds are due to machines sitting around and the carbs getting gummed up. There's nothing magical or mystical about a Honda carb that prevents this and to be honest I feel a Tecumseh Snow King carb is just as good as a Honda carb in regards to how it's made and performs.


More than anything else Tecumsehs suffer from water in the gas. But they do have a ton of unique to Tecumseh carb issues too. The original brass floats are paper thin and often end up with pinholes in them, Same goes for the float bowl. The older carbs wont stay in adjustment since the engines vibrate so bad the mixture screws start to back out, the newer carbs have issues with the rubber O-rings around the jet tube/main nozzle inside the emulsion tube going bad.



ChrisJ said:


> Honda snowblowers are awesome machines and Honda makes a fantastic small engine but they suffer from the same carburetor problems all of them do when they are neglected. I've seen just as many Hondas (and Chinese Honda knockoffs) running on half choke and hunting as any other brand.


That's thing thing though. you can leave a honda outside for at least 6 months and pull it once and it will start. Good luck doing that with a Tecumseh


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## Thump_rrr

I'll give a different comparison. 

My dad bought an Italian 12ga shotgun for approximately 1 weeks salary back in the early 60's. He could have bought a Winchester or Remington for around 1/2 the price but he was from the old world and preferred the fit and finish of the Italian one.
That gun put countless game on the table over the last 1/2
Century and is still capable of it today.

You can go out today and buy a brand new Stevens shotgun for $250.00, a Benelli for $1,000, a Kreighof for $10,000 or a Purdey for $100,000.

All 4will take down game and they'll all be equally dead but even a blind man would be able to appreciate the difference between each of these 4 guns.

We all know that the $1,000 gun isn't 4 times better than the $250 gun and that the $10,000 gun isn't 40x better than the $250 gun and the $100,000 gun isn't 400x better than the $250 gun but there is a market for all of the above guns.

Different strokes for different folks.


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## db9938

With all due regards, quality is something that one has to pay for. It is true that something that is inexpensive may satisfy the needs for some, that may use it occasional. But for something to be used reliably, on a daily basis, I expect to pay for it. 

That said, if something was not to meet my expectations after paying above the minimum for it, I believe that I have the right to be critical of said item. Firearms are particularly true to this, to include shotguns, long guns, and pistols. A Hi point, is not a Boberg, nor would I expect the same level of reliability.


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## JerryD

Just for the record...Yesterday I ordered a carb kit for my neighbors pampered Honda snow blower that would only run on full choke.


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## RoyP

JerryD said:


> Just for the record...Yesterday I ordered a carb kit for my neighbors pampered Honda snow blower that would only run on full choke.


You could of saved a few $$$ by soaking the old carb in cleaner.....I know this for sure.....just did mine.


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## ChrisJ

RoyP said:


> You could of saved a few $$$ by soaking the old carb in cleaner.....I know this for sure.....just did mine.



The kits usually come with new o-rings, gaskets etc.
You still need to clean the jets and passages.

I just ordered a kit for my Tecumseh to replace all of the 15 year old rubber parts and gaskets but jets are original and needed to be cleaned.


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