# Single stage for sidewalk cleaning



## zandor (Dec 15, 2017)

I have a nice 2-stage machine, but I'm thinking about getting a single stage too. I live in Chicago and we get quite a few small snowfalls around here. Usually I just shovel the sidewalk and leave my 100' side driveway (detached garage behind the house) when we just get a couple inches. I live in the city though, and if it snows on a weekday my sidewalk usually gets trampled on by a few dozen people before I can get to it. I have plenty of neighbors with blowers so I don't really need a backup for the 2-stage, but I would like something small and maneuverable that does a good job at cleaning pavement.

Are there any single stage models that are particularly good at clearing down to the pavement? Maybe some not so good models?


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## micah68kj (Oct 8, 2011)

Toro.CCR 3650 or really just about any Toro, Ariens or honda. *WAY* faster than any two stage. Most of the time though, I have a angled plow that actually is reverseable and has a blocked off side that is even faster than the SS blower.


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## zandor (Dec 15, 2017)

I really can't see getting a plow in the city unless you're taking about a big pusher shovel. My 24" 2-stage is big for around here.

The other thing I'm wondering is how much engine size matters for pavement clearing. The smaller Toros have a 99cc engine and weigh a little under 60lbs, while Ariens, Honda, and larger Toro models are more like 80-90lbs and have 200cc or so engines. I can just pick up and carry a 60lb machine around, but add another 20 or 30lbs and I have to actually think about what I'm doing. It would be nice to be able to easily pick a SS up and carry it across the street, take it down into the basement, or toss it in my car. So how are those little 99cc 18" Toros at pavement scraping?


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## Stability (Nov 18, 2014)

I own a Toro 721 RC (2014). It's been very good to me and still going strong.
It is 90lbs, but for me it's not a problem, very easy to grab and lift into truck. It has a 212cc motor that I have used at times, pushing it through 10-12" of powder and honestly it doesn't think twice about it.
The thing is, if you buy one, you'll end up finding yourself grabbing it more often then not, because it will make quick work of it, the paddles propelling you forward. It will clean down to the pavement better then a shovel. 
Having said that you'll appreciate the extra cc's.
The only negative is it is a manual shoot, so I have to lean across the side to change the direction, but Toro does offer remote chutes on similar machines.


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

If weight is a priority, you might look into older 2 stroke single stages. 

I haven't gotten to use it in a storm yet, but I just got a used Toro 221, which seems to be kind of the successor to the 3650. Same 141cc 2 stroke, but 21" width, vs 20", and a quick chute aiming control, vs the crank on the 3650. 

I read that mine weighs 74 lbs, it does not have electric start.

A 141cc 2 stroke should be significantly more powerful than a 99cc 4 stroke. You have the downside of the oil smell, of course. 

I don't need to carry mine around, fortunately. Like with my 2 stage, I was trying to get as much power as was practical/affordable. I figured some extra grunt would make it more useful in bigger storms, maybe taking over more work from the 2 stage. That would be nice, anyways.

What I really wanted was the 212cc Toro 721, but I couldn't pass up the deal I found on this one.

There was a discussion the other day that the Briggs/Simplicity single stages are tough to handle, and don't pull themselves very well.

From what I understand, most rubber paddle single stages should do a good job of clearing down to pavement, since they are all hitting it with the paddles. I'm sure some are better than others. 

The Honda HS621 has a great reputation, but are >90 lbs. Their current HS720, without electric-start, is 82 lbs.


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## JLawrence08648 (Jan 15, 2017)

I've had many single stage, they all do the job. If you are going to do only light snows, get the smallest engine. Also get used, they are cheap because they are plentiful. It's hard to even give them away.

Toro makes the best, I've had several; also Snapper, several MTDs, they all do the job. For a couple of inches, you won't notice the difference.


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## LawnToro (Dec 28, 2018)

zandor said:


> I really can't see getting a plow in the city unless you're taking about a big pusher shovel. My 24" 2-stage is big for around here.
> 
> The other thing I'm wondering is how much engine size matters for pavement clearing. The smaller Toros have a 99cc engine and weigh a little under 60lbs, while Ariens, Honda, and larger Toro models are more like 80-90lbs and have 200cc or so engines. I can just pick up and carry a 60lb machine around, but add another 20 or 30lbs and I have to actually think about what I'm doing. It would be nice to be able to easily pick a SS up and carry it across the street, take it down into the basement, or toss it in my car. So how are those little 99cc 18" Toros at pavement scraping?



I use both a Toro Power Clear 721 RC, and a Toro 518 99cc. The 99cc is super powerful. They run at a high RPM, so it can really fling the snow. The only issue I have with it is it's weight. It is very light. Almost too light. It bounces around alot if there isn't much snow.


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

Interesting, thanks. I looked up the RPMs, the 518 runs at 4500 RPM, vs 3700 for the 721. Higher RPM is one way to coax more power out of a small engine, if you aren't locked into a 3600 RPM situation, like for a traditional generator. My little 99cc Honda inverter generator runs from 3000 RPM, up to 5000 RPM, I believe, to handle the max load. 

(For a point of comparison, I've seen the R-Tek 141cc 2-stroke list up to 4000 RPM, on the 3650. The lower-power-rated versions, like 2400, spun it slower, like 3700)


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## JLawrence08648 (Jan 15, 2017)

And I've wondered, when the higher rpms is recommended, is it a different engine that can handle the higher rpms? or a design change in the same engine so it can handle the higher rpms and not shorten it's life? or just a turn of a screw to get the higher speed that will shorten the life of the engine?


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## HCBPH (Mar 8, 2011)

If looking at a single stage, I'd have to recommend a Toro. My Dad had one he'd used for 25+ years till he passed away and it never missed a step. IIRC it didn't have an electric start, yet always started via the rope no matter what.


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

JLawrence08648 said:


> And I've wondered, when the higher rpms is recommended, is it a different engine that can handle the bigger rpms? a design change so the same engine can handle the higher rpms and not shorten it's life? or just a turn of a screw to get the higher speed that will shorten the life of the engine?


I think it depends. In the case of the R-Tek engines, from what I understand, they're all physically the same, and they just increase the governor's RPM setting to get more power. It probably makes a difference in engine life, though whether it's meaningful is anyone's guess. If it dropped the life from a hypothetical 1000 hours to 800, how many people would ever reach that on a snowblower? It might be a welcome trade-off for more performance all the time that you're using it. 

And smaller engines can typically spin faster, before connecting rods and flywheels start to come apart. Like I said, my little 99cc can turn at up to 5000 RPM, as configured by Honda. Try that on a 414cc beast, though, and my guess is the connecting rod might come apart before you got there. 

The more reciprocating mass in the engine (bigger piston, etc), the more force exerted on the connecting rod just from it spinning (not even worrying about the engine actually firing). The faster you spin it, the greater those forces become. And if you make the connecting rod thicker and stronger, you also make it heavier, so the forces on it go up even more. 

You can help get around this with different manufacturing methods (forged connecting rods, vs cast), different materials, etc. But those typically add cost, so they're only done if needed, for high-performance engines. With enough money, you can get a LOT out of a small engine, F1 engines are only a few liters, and can make something like 600+ hp, I think (haven't looked in a while). They spin at ridiculously high RPMs, I think >12,000. 

As opposed to 2-strokes, 4-strokes also complicate things a bit more. At some point, as you increase RPMs, you also need to use stiffer valve springs. Otherwise the valves are moving so quickly that the springs aren't strong enough to close the valves fully, before the engine fires again.


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## gibbs296 (Jun 22, 2014)

If you have a chance, grab a Toro Powerlite. It is really one of my favorites. They all but give them away in the summer.


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## carterlake (Sep 10, 2018)

OMG! Get the Toro 724 QXE. You'll put away -both- your single stage and your two stage. Power chute makes for easy easy throwing anywhere you want the snow to land. It can handle BIG snows just like a two-stage. It's so fast you'll find yourself out and back inside, sipping coffee in no time.

Source: Just had 3 inches of snow here this morning. Did my neighbors to either side's driveways and sidewalks and mine in 1 hour.


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## zandor (Dec 15, 2017)

A Snowmaster would be a good compromise machine, but I don't have any interest in getting rid of my 2-stage. Also, it's actually too wide. I have some walks where an 18 or 20 inch machine would be much better.

What I'm taking from this is it doesn't matter all that much, but a 99cc machine might be too light for what I really want it for -- pavement scraping. The whole bit about bouncing around if there isn't enough snow sounds annoying. The weight is not a big deal. The difference between 60 and 90 lbs is that I can pick up and casually carry the 60lb machine around. A 90lb machine is staying on the ground unless I need to pick it up. I might keep a 60lb blower in the basement so I don't have to tromp through snow to get to the garage. A 90lb blower is only going in the basement if I need to work on it in cold weather and maybe for summer storage. I'm also hearing Toro! Toro! Toro! I was expecting more Honda fans. But I'm in no hurry so I'll keep an eye on the used market and any spring close-out sales.


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## groomerz (Feb 7, 2015)

My experience maintaining 15 of these 3650 s that are from the early 2000’s models that are long and run hard commercially. Like 3 paddle scraper changes per season. Never had r tek 141 cc break or even wear out . Small issue on motors is mufflers loosening and replacing the plastic carbs with metal carbs. They are tough machines. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Rutom (Jan 28, 2019)

Totally agree with the the replies in here. Really loving my Toro with the 2 stroke R-Tek and quick shute adjustment. It handled the icy/wet snow we got in Toronto here with no problems. They can had here used in Toronto anywhere from $150-$300 used.


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

Got to use my 2-stroke R-Tek Toro last night for the first time, it did great. It was only 4" of fluffy snow. But I cleared it in half the time of the last storm, which was similar snow, but done with my 2-stage. And it cleared down to the pavement.

I tried simulating a bigger storm, by blowing the snow straight ahead, directly in front of the machine, building up a deeper pile. It will clearly handle significantly more than 4".


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## db130 (Feb 16, 2013)

I didn't go out during last night's storm. This morning, 3" of slushy snow awaited my arrival.

I tried out my recently acquired Snow Commander and it did not disappoint!

I did my driveway (it can fit 6 cars) + EOD as well as my neighbor's driveway (another 6-car driveway) + EOD in about an hour. There was some belt slippage when it encountered a large EOD "snow boulder" but it did not stall.


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

Nice! 

How does it compare to your 3650? That seems like an interesting comparison. 

Have you replaced the belt, or is it a new & adjusted belt that's slipping? I didn't notice any belt slipping with mine, despite getting to the point of almost stalling the engine, but I just installed a new belt, and set the tension. And I didn't hit any sudden chunks of solid stuff. 

Have you checked the RPMs? Given that the 5hp vs 6.5hp "versions" were just set to different speeds, I've tried to make sure that mine is running in its 4000 +/- 200 spec, when under a moderate load. 

The biggest "issue" I saw with mine is that the engine can certainly be heard, and is a distinctive exhaust note, kind of "snarling" when under a load. Probably more noticeable than your typical 2-stage 4-stroke. I'll feel kinda bad when I have to fire up the angry little hornet early in the morning


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## db130 (Feb 16, 2013)

I really liked the chute crank rod on the 3650 compared to having to reach over to adjust the position the chute on the Snow Commander. That's a small quibble, and the later model Snow Commanders do have a chute crank. I haven't checked the RPMs either (all in good time).

Honestly, I haven't even checked the condition or the tension on the belt. I will check it when I replace the control panel support assembly.


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## LawnToro (Dec 28, 2018)

zandor said:


> A Snowmaster would be a good compromise machine, but I don't have any interest in getting rid of my 2-stage. Also, it's actually too wide. I have some walks where an 18 or 20 inch machine would be much better.
> 
> What I'm taking from this is it doesn't matter all that much, but a 99cc machine might be too light for what I really want it for -- pavement scraping. The whole bit about bouncing around if there isn't enough snow sounds annoying. The weight is not a big deal. The difference between 60 and 90 lbs is that I can pick up and casually carry the 60lb machine around. A 90lb machine is staying on the ground unless I need to pick it up. I might keep a 60lb blower in the basement so I don't have to tromp through snow to get to the garage. A 90lb blower is only going in the basement if I need to work on it in cold weather and maybe for summer storage. I'm also hearing Toro! Toro! Toro! I was expecting more Honda fans. But I'm in no hurry so I'll keep an eye on the used market and any spring close-out sales.



The bouncing isn't horrible. I only notice it if I am on a bumpy driveway. My driveway is smooth, and it does fine.


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## bkwudz (Jan 14, 2013)

I love my single stages, have used toros, 2450, 3650, never a problem. easy to get them cheap off CL, Right now i have a 621qze, im a fan of the chute control. I also got a Ariens pro 21 single stage this year,
and have say it is every bit as good as the Toros. Is used it today for 4" of total slush we got ,with about 8" at EOD, and it ate right through it. I didnt like where they put the on off switch, i thought it would be prone to freezing but its been a used a few wet storms and i have had no issues.


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## Zavie (Sep 23, 2014)

Here's another Toro vote. My 721R easily handles 10-12" of medium weight snow quickly and efficiently. Just this morning I had 8-10" in my eight car driveway. I did my drive and the Cul-de-sac to the huge snowpile in the middle of our Cul-de-sac in about 12 minutes. The 212cc jumps to life with half a pull on the rope and eats up snow like it wants more and more. My drive is sloped and it has no problem climbing back up. All the contractors around here have a 721 on their trucks.


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

Cool! I'd love to know how the 721 compares to a 3650, or (selfishly) my 221. I just wonder how much more powerful the 721 is vs the R-Tek 2-strokes. I'd guessing it's quieter, at least, but likely also more powerful, at least going by the marketing numbers. 

I'm hoping we get some "real" snow so I can try the 221 in a bigger storm. Preferably after I get the carb issues sorted out.


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## bkwudz (Jan 14, 2013)

the 621 seems every bit as powerful as the 3650, but yes much quieter...LOL although I love the 2 stroke sound..LOL


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## gibbs296 (Jun 22, 2014)

I've been using my 621qze a bunch all of a sudden and am really pleased. Starts up one pull and very quiet. I also have a carb coming for my 210r Thursday I think. I'm hoping to have it ready for whenever our next snow is. Love the Quick Shoot!! Nice to hear bkwudz likes that Ariens single stage also. Another member said his didn't perform well, maybe something was wrong with that machine.


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

Great feedback on the different machines, thanks. Yeah, Quick Shoot is pretty nice, very glad I was able to find a machine with it. Re-aiming when turning around after a pass is trivial, and I should also be able to aim while actually clearing. 

Most of the 721s on CL around here, at least, did not have QS. Same with many of the 621s. Don't know why.


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