# Big Drum Type Augers...



## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

Why? Just wonderin'.. Why were they made. What's the advantage?? Seems to me they'd be less efficient.


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## drmerdp (Feb 9, 2014)

I think, it was toros first “anticlog” design. Designed to limit the amount of snow being ingested as to not choke the impeller with two much material. 

I feel the same way about MTD, cubcadet, troybilts closed flite augers.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

drmerdp said:


> I think, it was toros first “anticlog” design. Designed to limit the amount of snow being ingested as to not choke the impeller with two much material.
> 
> I feel the same way about MTD, cubcadet, troybilts closed flute augers.


They all had one? I assume it doesn't work well because not everyone is doing it.


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## leonz (Dec 12, 2014)

Big single stage snow blowers are still made by Riest in Canada and by other builders in Europe that are truck mounted. 

That is the absolute beauty of single stage snowblowers as the solid snow blower rotor will quickly convey it to the center and then get rid of it without needing the second stage impeller.

The two stage walk behinds use of the solid rotor was to meter the snow in smaller amounts to the impeller at the chain driven gear set would rotate it to move the snow to the center. It also prevented the snow blower from clogging. 


If someone wanted to make a single stage walk behind now I am unsure if it would sell well but if it had a 12 horsepower horizontal shaft gas engine with a standard air filter it would not require a serialk numbered certified can of whoop ass to work well for sure as it would have power and torque. Not as much as Geno's Frankenstein blower butit would work well. 


It would not take a lot of work to get a serious whoop ass 24 or 36 inch walk behind snow blower with a few new parts using a 13 inch snow blower rotor and I would love to be the one to do it as it would not take much to do it with a track drive set up and you would not need a lot of options to make it work very well as the unit will have more than enough power to throw the snow a long way rivaling the yamahas.


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## tpenfield (Feb 24, 2015)

jsup said:


> Why? Just wonderin'.. Why were they made. What's the advantage?? Seems to me they'd be less efficient.


Archimedes' screw . . . (Google that )

Efficient in moving material along the path of the 'screw'. Not sure efficiency vs. standard perimeter blade augers have been put to the test.


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## Oneacer (Jan 3, 2011)

If they were that good, then all the machines for sale today would have them .... just saying ...


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## classiccat (Mar 1, 2014)

I've always been surprised by the enhanced removal rate with the old drum designs. If I need to remove alot of snow quickly, I grab my '89 824. If I want to take my time & "savor the throw", I avoid those machines. 

Another advantage, there's a fraction of the contact area between the rake & shaft relative to a standard design; less area to rust-weld.


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## UNDERTAKER (Dec 30, 2013)

*The big Drum auger meters in the amount of snow. I don't know for sure but maybe TORO had a patent on it at one time or another..*


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## guyl (Jun 12, 2016)

One modification that's rarely been discussed is to change the auger type in a given machine. I happened to do just that last year when I used the ribbon augers from a junk machine (which I bought for its transmission, to convert a Craftsman machine to friction disk drive) to replace the individual stamped disk augers on my 30" MTD machine. I've never liked those stamped disks, and a couple of them had broken where they're welded to the sleeve. The disks form a rather tight, closed screw that seems to be prone to jamming. The ribbon augers on the other hand have lots of open space. Whenever I see large tractor mounted snowblowers, I'm always surprised by how thin the ribbon augers are. I've only used the new augers as of this winter but we've had several good storms already and I have yet to experience a jam.

Why do they make those stamped disk augers? A cost cutting thing?


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## Jatoxico (Jan 6, 2018)

leonz said:


> If someone wanted to make a single stage walk behind now...


Isn't that what the Toro QXE line is? Self propelled w/ single stage. I've been impressed with what I've seen/heard.


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## Attaboy (Jan 13, 2018)

With the big drum auger you did not break any gearboxes as you do today with ribbon type augers.


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## tpenfield (Feb 24, 2015)

oneacer said:


> If they were that good, then all the machines for sale today would have them .... just saying ...


Another point could be that the cost accountants are now in charge of designing the auger systems. It seems that the newer machines have less and less blade area on the augers. Not sure if that is engineering or cost cutting :icon-shrug:

I don't recall any of the older Toro drum style machines ever having trouble eating snow. Probably more of a cost cutting move than anything . . .


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## Jatoxico (Jan 6, 2018)

No experience with these but aside from limiting the amount of snow to the impeller (intentional?) seems like drum type wouldn't work too well to break wet and or hard packed snow and ice.


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## deezlfan (Nov 8, 2017)

> With the big drum auger you did not break any gearboxes as you do today with ribbon type augers.


Yes, but is that because of the auger design or the change to small aluminum bodied gear boxes so prevalent today? 

This week I have been using a small 4/21 Toro with a drum and a 70's 6/24 Ariens and see little difference from the operators position. 

Could it be as simple as the fact that the drum style is so much more difficult to change a shear pin in?


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## leonz (Dec 12, 2014)

They were very good and they were sold on lawn and garden tractors to begin with. They have to be built with stronger side frames and thick steel and used high speed chain drives for the snow blower rotor and steel chutes and spouts. 

For the front mounted single stage units the snow blower rotor was powered using a horizontal tecumseh or briggs powered lawn and garden tractor with single compression snubber pulley and short V belt that was easy to change and powered the driven pulley for the snow blower which rotated the right angle one to one bevel to bevel gearbox that was packed with grease or heavy oil to lubricate it.

The gear box was right angle gearbox that was connected to a driven shaft that was routed to the left to a smaller single row #40 roller chain sprocket.
Then the chain drive was fed to a larger sprocket on the side of the housing that spun the snow blower rotor at a high speed which I cannot remember exactly but I think it was 330 rpm at either 3300 RPM or 3600 RPM engine speed. 
The snow blower rotor housing was welded in one piece and there was a simple flat scraper without a replacement cutting edge as the bottom edge was thick and tapered as well.


It took a lot of steel to make one of these as they were very strong and needed to be supported for the full width of the snow thrower and they had an under tractor frame mount which was very heavy and would bite if you forgot where it was in the dark.

The frame and plow on my 1991 WH244 hydro probably weighs more than the JD mule I have so that tells you a lot.


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## leonz (Dec 12, 2014)

The single stage snow throwers on the old lawn and garden tractors depended strictly on the roller chain breaking as the single relief in the drive system if the drive belt did not slip or burn in half.


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## leonz (Dec 12, 2014)

Jatoxico said:


> No experience with these but aside from limiting the amount of snow to the impeller (intentional?) seems like drum type wouldn't work too well to break wet and or hard packed snow and ice.




The original single stage snow throwers on garden tractors had their limits and had to work slower to remove wet snow pack and ice as they only had 12 HP to work with at the time and no flywheel.


The new units have large power plants that spin at very high rpm with multiple small chutes on the snow blower rotor housing where the snow blower rotor has several sets of auger ribbons that meet under the chutes to expel the snow and ice it cuts into.

The solid side discs on the new units like the Yamaha 1332 eliminate the need to assemble a larger end weldments to create a larger cross auger housing which is what many of the European manufactures use in their designs. It also aids in cutting into the snowpack acting as a small rotating disc as a drift cutter.


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## leonz (Dec 12, 2014)

tpenfield said:


> Another point could be that the cost accountants are now in charge of designing the auger systems. It seems that the newer machines have less and less blade area on the augers. Not sure if that is engineering or cost cutting :icon-shrug:
> 
> I don't recall any of the older Toro drum style machines ever having trouble eating snow. Probably more of a cost cutting move than anything . . .



Its just cost cutting period. It takes less effort, skill and welding to make the two stage snow blowers with thinner steel and non serrated open auger ribbons than it does to build weld and balance a single stage snow blower rotor with a 4 inch diameter hollow tube with a stub shaft on one side to pass through and lock on a 4 bolt flanged greasable bearing and a second stub shaft machine to accept a large single row roller chain sprocket for the other side that passes through an greasable open flange bearing with four bolts. 


When Toro killed off the wheel horse lawn and garden tractors as a line it was just money as the 2 wheel self propelled hydraulic drive lawn mowers they make cost less to build and sell.


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## Jatoxico (Jan 6, 2018)

Ok, I have to admit it, I'm confused about all this single stage talk. Not that it's not interesting but I thought the OP meant this-










Two stage yes? Just big in the way drum.


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## ourkid2000 (Feb 27, 2017)

leonz said:


> Its just cost cutting period. It takes less effort, skill and welding to make the two stage snow blowers with thinner steel and non serrated open auger ribbons than it does to build weld and balance a single stage snow blower rotor with a 4 inch diameter hollow tube with a stub shaft on one side to pass through and lock on a 4 bolt flanged greasable bearing and a second stub shaft machine to accept a large single row roller chain sprocket for the other side that passes through an greasable open flange bearing with four bolts.
> 
> 
> When Toro killed off the wheel horse lawn and garden tractors as a line it was just money as the 2 wheel self propelled hydraulic drive lawn mowers they make cost less to build and sell.


Dude, why do you keep talking about single stages


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## leonz (Dec 12, 2014)

I only mention it because they make more money with two stage machines and they have to placate the stockholders. 

If you had a 12 horse horizontal crank engine on the toro model above; it would really throw snow almost as far or as far as Genos Frankenstein blower.

If the the 2 stage drum auger design had serrations in it it throw a lot more snow at a standard speed with less high idle engine loading as less snow would be pushed forward by the auger ribbons.
It would have sold much better with a larger 12 horse engine for sure as the power band would have been wider and higher. 




The new Yamahas are a good example of this with their heavy thick cross auger ribbons as they shred and shred and shred and the smallest snow portion is pushed to the center as the snow thrower advances forward.


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## leonz (Dec 12, 2014)

Here are picture images of both a Canadian Riest series 1000 hydraulic vesrion single stage unit and an Italian Berta 2 stage three point hitch rear PTO model for everyone to see the little monsters in a small package.

The Reist Series 1000 snow blower rotor operates at 330+ RPM and the BERTA 2 stage three point hitch mount unit operates the impeller at 540 RPM and the twin cross augers have a tube that also shields the worm to spur gearbox that rotates the cross augers.

The Riest units have a center spatter stop shield at the top of the snow blower rotor housing with no exposed gearbox it has an exterior #60 chain drive in an easy to access housing. 

The snow blower rotor speed can be changed with differerent gear sets using simple hand tools and a torque wrench. the unit can be front or rear mounted by just exchanging parts. 
The Unit could be used on sub compact tractors as a front mount which would be a better match power wise. 
The Series 1000 like its bigger brothers the 2000 and 3000 models has many additional options. 



The BERTA 2 stage has a continuous cross housing spatter shield to reduce snow and ice scatter to a minimum per the EU farm equipment regulations. 
The Berta is able to use three different types of chute/spout systems and is built using very thick steel like the Riest single stage units and can be used on small sub compact and compact tractors and comes in three standard widths.

Time for dinner :angel:


EDIT: In my haste to get dinner I forgot to mention that the Reist series 1000 is 48 inches wide. The smallest BERTA 2 stage is 36+- inches wide if I remember that correctly.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

From what I'm learning, the big drum is either just as good, or better, but not worse. 

Interesting stuff, thanks guys.


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## leonz (Dec 12, 2014)

I am glad we could help. The Berta Line of snow blowers was designed for use in the German and Italian Alps and that is why you see the 2 stage tractor mounted design on the left with the cross auger that has serrations on each ribbon to break up the snow into its smallest portion.

The cross auger housing is shallow in depth and the ends of the cross auger ribbons are sealed with a cutting disc to continue shearing into the snow wall while advancing forward into the snow pack to clear it. 

The snow has no where to go other than the center of the snow blower taking advantage of the cross augers sealed rotating center section that lets the snow pass under and over it with no interference. Any snow that is trapped behind the snow cutting disc on either side is constantly being pushed out by the rotation of the cross auger and will not become stuck.

:behindsofa:


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