# EFI Problems



## Jackmels (Feb 18, 2013)

Problems with EFI?


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## e.fisher26 (Nov 6, 2016)

Haven’t had the chance to use a EFI yet. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## WABOOM (Mar 2, 2019)

Jackmels said:


> Problems with EFI?


I'm not sure if you are saying that there is or isn't problems with efi, but it isn't exactly a tried and true system for snowblowers quite yet.


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## Town (Jan 31, 2015)

@Jackmels 

I don't understand how a picture of an apparent assault of a woman by two men relates to the title of this thread? Perhaps you could explain the picture, and its relevance to the title?


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## cranman (Jan 23, 2016)

Town ....I think it was Jack's way of saying that if you get an EFI blower and have a problem...the jokes on you. I don't read anything about an assault on a woman from that meme. So sorry if you bought an EFI...they are fun when they aren't broken.


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## Zavie (Sep 23, 2014)

Have we had a *new* thread start recently about a snowblower with EFI issues? Maybe something that would have begun in late October or early November? I can't recall a new thread, hmmm......................


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## Jackmels (Feb 18, 2013)

cranman said:


> Town ....I think it was Jack's way of saying that if you get an EFI blower and have a problem...the jokes on you. I don't read anything about an assault on a woman from that meme. So sorry if you bought an EFI...they are fun when they aren't broken.



Cran, Thanks For "Getting it"....


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## orangputeh (Nov 24, 2016)

Jackmels said:


> Problems with EFI?


forgetaboutit


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## cranman (Jan 23, 2016)

I'm at the Arien Dealers at least three times a week....the owner is one of my x-high school students back in my previous life....he's 60 so guess I've over the hill. I asked him abut the EFI yesterday, to see if he liked them any better then last year......He said we sell a lot of them, but no I don't like them....his head mechanic is knowledgeable about the system and has gone through the training seminars from the factory, and he HATES it. It all boils down to the potential advantages vs. the extra cost to buy and maintain, and how hard for the homeowner to service it....


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## Jackmels (Feb 18, 2013)

OK.....


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

"He sells a lot of them . . " but yet no mention of a problem rate, just an irrelevant emothional statement of "I hate them" . . . Hmmm.

Maybe because he gets *less* service revenue? <ducks>

Seriously, if they are selling that well, only 2 or so problem posts here should be a testament to reliability . . . (and the only problems I have read have pretty much been "right out of the box" and not operational issues).

Seriously, I try to keep this down to technology, failure rate, etc. Emotional reactions of like, hate, etc. mean nothing in this context. Like or don't like - anyones choice, but that in itself means nothing to the quality or relibility of the machine.

? ? ?


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## Oneacer (Jan 3, 2011)

@tad,

I am in agreement, and it is pretty evident, that in the years to come, EFI, or some form of it, will be on all small engines.

I mean, why are cars not produced anymore with carburetors. Technology and the times change, one has to move on, and I am sure there are some that don't like it.

Remember incandescent light bulbs …  Now there all LED. Remember the phone on the wall, or the black one on the table with the barbell type handset … lol …. Hey, how about when snowblowers were sold with chains on a lawn tire, instead of like now, with the proper XTrac or SnowHogs Tread…. 

I personally had all my blowers given to me, and never had to buy one, and never will have to, as there are too many out there that are neglected and discarded, allowing people like me and others here, to reap the benefit of never having to buy one. But if I were to buy one today, it would be with the latest technology for sure. With that being said, can someone buy something new and still f...k it up, …  … most certainly.


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## Zavie (Sep 23, 2014)

At the service counter at some random Ariens dealership on the east coast. "Hey can I help ya?" "Why yes mister service guy my snowblower is hard to start, or runs rough or won't start and I think it may be the carb, maybe." The service guy replies "Yer a homeowner right? go home and service it yerself".


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## 2.137269 (Nov 15, 2019)

oneacer your so correct 

IMM i see that with CA carb's pushing we will be seeing cats pretty soon, flowed by everything EFI , cats have been made for some time as retro fits with good results, engines i have retro'd with kits from bluecat run good and sure smell cleaner . https://www.nettinc.com/products/3-...-small-spark-ignited-engines-emission-control

my first try it engine is a 25 hp kohler twin on my lawn tractor 300 hours later still runs great if only i could say that about the transaxle


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## GeorgePowell (Mar 17, 2019)

Tried mine for the first time a few weeks ago ( 30 deluxe efi)....worked great. Just put a 13 lb weight on the front and l am dying to use it in a big snowfall.


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## rslifkin (Mar 5, 2018)

EFI has a long enough history as a concept that there's no reason it can't work well on a snowblower. I think some of the flaws come down to trying to keep the system a little too simple and cheap. If they went to key start and had a 12v battery on board, some of the components would likely be a bit less specialized, meaning they could use more off the shelf parts, diagnostics protocols, etc. to make them easier to service. 



And of course, like any piece of technology, it's hard to fix it or know why it's behaving the way it is if you don't know enough about how it works. So some implementation specific info being put out there in a good service manual that's not just aimed at scripted diagnostics would be good.


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## Ian Ariens 924 (Dec 22, 2015)

I can see EFI for commercial users and people in the big snow areas.We just don’t get snow we used to in the great lakes area.
We are lucky to use our SB 10 times a season.
If they can get the price down and include a long lasting battery to keep the efi working then they will sell around here


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

rslifkin said:


> EFI has a long enough history as a concept that there's no reason it can't work well on a snowblower. I think some of the flaws come down to trying to keep the system a little too simple and cheap. If they went to key start and had a 12v battery on board, some of the components would likely be a bit less specialized, meaning they could use more off the shelf parts, diagnostics protocols, etc. to make them easier to service.
> 
> 
> 
> And of course, like any piece of technology, it's hard to fix it or know why it's behaving the way it is if you don't know enough about how it works. So some implementation specific info being put out there in a good service manual that's not just aimed at scripted diagnostics would be good.


The 7.2v battery used is as common as many car batteries - it's just a 6 cell RC car/plane/whatever pack . . . And you can't freeze NiMH, unlike lead acid if let to get too low. Seems like a really good pick from here - far more common and cheaper than small gel or AGM batteries, and likely a voltage far more compatible with a lot of the parts in use. The service info makes it look like they are basically using RC servo technology/chips for the throttle servo, and mkst other electronics run on 5 anyhow, so plenty of headroom. Heck, given the fueling curves, this is something that could likely be deployed on something like an Arduino board . . .


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## melson (Feb 9, 2015)

Once you go digital you can employ & enjoy many advantages.


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## Jackmels (Feb 18, 2013)

A Dealer Repair? Warranty Expired? And 6 Weeks to get it Back?


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## ELaw (Feb 4, 2015)

If simplicity is the most important factor, shouldn't we all be using shovels? :devil:


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

Jackmels said:


> A Dealer Repair? Warranty Expired? And 6 Weeks to get it Back?


Maybe $250, shouldn't be more than days if they are not backed up (or criminally stupid) and warrantly is irrelevant. If that's the case, find a competent dealer . . .

You will likely spend more over the years cleaning and maintaining an obsolete carb system.

Bonehead simple, 5 parts . . .


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## vstorm (Dec 9, 2019)

Well, I've replaced the carb once in 26 years on my Tecumseh 8 HP, it cost me $16. I was thinking about replacing it again but it now cost's almost $20. It's still working okay but should be rebuilt soon. Why rebuild when replace is so cheap and easy. EFI will never be that way. There's nothing wrong with carburetors, all of my race cars have had them. They are very simple devices that rarely break but need cleaning and adjusting more frequently than most people are willing to do. Apparently, some would rather pay $500 for something that involves electronic complication which can be unreliable and can cost hundreds to repair. It's coming for these machines but not yet ready. Why be the guinea pig that the company wants to use as a test bed? Your repair money will help pay for their R&D as they learn about all the weaknesses in their new system. Modern ethanol fuel is the real enemy of carburetors and if you choose to use it, then follow the recommendations for it's use with your machine and no problems.


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## gibbs296 (Jun 22, 2014)

Non-running EFI machines should make for some bargain-basement purchases off of Craigslist and Facebook Marketplace not too many years in the future. One mans disaster is another mans opportunity..


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## ELaw (Feb 4, 2015)

gibbs296 said:


> One mans disaster is another mans opportunity..


Put me down for the "opportunity" cagetory!

Sarcasm aside, I do understand the concerns with EFT regarding complexity, and cost to repair. The cost side of the equation should improve once EFI systems are more common... carburetors didn't cost (the equivalent of) $16 when they first came out either. And IMHO EFI systems have the potential to be more reliable which also impacts cost... replacing a $16 carburetor costs more than not replacing a $250 EFI module. All other factors aside, simpler systems do tend to be more reliable, but complex systems can be reliable too if they're designed properly.

And EFI isn't just a new "shiny object"... it can have real benefits. Does anyone remember the carbureted cars from the 1970s where if you had to start the engine only once during a trip it was a miracle? Drivability, fuel economy, emissions, and performance all improved when EFI was introduced in cars... at least once the early bugs were worked out.


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## badbmwbrad (Jul 30, 2019)

In the future, I envision non-running EFI machines being repaired by installation of a $12 carburetor purchased from eBay. 

I think EFI is all about EPA regulating exhaust emissions from outdoor power equipment. It will take a long time for the fuel-cost savings afforded by EFI to pay for its application on a snowblower. 




gibbs296 said:


> Non-running EFI machines should make for some bargain-basement purchases off of Craigslist and Facebook Marketplace not too many years in the future. One mans disaster is another mans opportunity..


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## Zavie (Sep 23, 2014)

ELaw said:


> If simplicity is the most important factor, shouldn't we all be using shovels? :devil:


We moved into our house with the long driveway in '64. Shoveled it for 10 years before we got the blower. We did just fine. Can't see why so many need them anyway. Get out the tools, it builds character.


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## Jackmels (Feb 18, 2013)

tadawson said:


> Maybe $250, shouldn't be more than days if they are not backed up (or criminally stupid) and warrantly is irrelevant. If that's the case, find a competent dealer . . .
> 
> You will likely spend more over the years cleaning and maintaining an obsolete carb system.
> 
> Bonehead simple, 5 parts . . .



My Ariens Dealer is currently 6 weeks out on Repairs, Thank You.


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## Zavie (Sep 23, 2014)

Zavie said:


> We moved into our house with the long driveway in '64. Shoveled it for 10 years before we got the blower. We did just fine. Can't see why so many need them anyway. Get out the tools, it builds character.





Jackmels said:


> My Ariens Dealer is currently 6 weeks out on Repairs, Thank You.


Why so many repairs? Seems odd with most homeowners repairing issues themselves?


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## 1132le (Feb 23, 2017)

Zavie said:


> Why so many repairs? Seems odd with most homeowners repairing issues themselves?



most home owners cant even start the mother right
since the dealers are 6 weeks out that makes them useless as does the warranty or the extended warrantty
most buying new blowers cant fix them so they are double farked
those that can fix blowers id say mostly buy used
a 3 yr old blower might need a drive belt and a friction disk easy peasy if the carb is clogged you can steal it fir peanuts


Dealers make there money on repairs not the ssle
dunderheads thinking it needs service every winter
300 or 400 2 squirts of oil a new plug oil change and some grease actual value 6 bucks in parts lol


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## Zavie (Sep 23, 2014)

1132le said:


> most home owners cant even start the mother right
> since the dealers are 6 weeks out that makes them useless as does the warranty or the extended warrantty
> most buying new blowers cant fix them as o they are dou n le farked
> those that can fix blowers id say mostly buy used
> a 3 yr old blower might need a drive belt and a friction disk easy peasy if the carb is clogged you can steal it fir peanuts


So true, @1132le. I can always count on you to shoot thru right to the facts.


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## Jackmels (Feb 18, 2013)

Zavie said:


> Why so many repairs? Seems odd with most homeowners repairing issues themselves?



Affluent People Making 6 figures a Year Don't get their Hands Dirty.


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## RIT333 (Feb 6, 2014)

Neither do poor people making 5 figures.


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## Oneacer (Jan 3, 2011)

@Zavie,

Most people I know do not work on there equipment. It is like Jack said, people either don't want to, or most are actually clueless. I see so many that just run them til they break, and lucky for them if they check the oil. …. JMHO


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## 2.137269 (Nov 15, 2019)

oneacer said:


> @Zavie,
> 
> Most people I know do not work on there equipment. It is like Jack said, people either don't want to, or most are actually clueless. I see so many that just run them til they break, and lucky for them if they check the oil. …. JMHO


O-My there are people who know how to check oil levels? how about changing a flat tire in these days,


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## 2.137269 (Nov 15, 2019)

seems besides not knowing how to check the oil,many never take the time to read the owners manuals which is full of most know needs,


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## Zavie (Sep 23, 2014)

oneacer said:


> @Zavie,
> 
> Most people I know do not work on there equipment. It is like Jack said, people either don't want to, or most are actually clueless. I see so many that just run them til they break, and lucky for them if they check the oil. …. JMHO


That's my point from all this. One argument for carbs is that they are easy to work on. But like most of you long timers agree is that just does not happen. I'm not saying that EFI is less expensive or easy to repair or less costly to repair I'm saying that either system is just as likely to end up in the repair shop if it has issues.


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## vstorm (Dec 9, 2019)

Ha! Ha! Do you really think that paying $500 for a $250 overpriced fuel injection system that doesn't break down is cheaper than buying a $20 carb every 10 years? Give me a break. Then if it does break down I should take it to the dealers shop? Take it to the shop are you kidding, I would never! Do you realize how much I paid for this thing? Do you really think that I'm going to let some one else mess with it???? This is mine! It's been re-built and tuned by ME!! Keep your hands off!!!


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

Jackmels said:


> My Ariens Dealer is currently 6 weeks out on Repairs, Thank You.


You implied it was due to EFI, which is what I called BS on . . . 6 weeks for anything basically means there is a heck of a backlog, or thier service guys are just that slow, nothing more. No more likely to go to a dealer for an EFI machine as a carb.

Bonehead simple . . .


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## Zavie (Sep 23, 2014)

vstorm said:


> Ha! Ha! Do you really think that paying $500 for a $250 overpriced fuel injection system that doesn't break down is cheaper than buying a $20 carb every 10 years? Give me a break. Then if it does break down I should take it to the dealers shop? Take it to the shop are you kidding, I would never! Do you realize how much I paid for this thing? Do you really think that I'm going to let some one else mess with it???? This is mine! It's been re-built and tuned by ME!! Keep your hands off!!!


Nope, never said that, maybe reread my post. My point was that for 99% of owners, (not the 1% like us on the forum) that their snowblower, (*not yours you are the 1%*) are going to the dealer regardless of the issue. From my post, "*I'm not saying that EFI is less expensive or easy to repair or less costly to repair* I'm saying that either system is just as likely to end up in the repair shop if it has issues.


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## vstorm (Dec 9, 2019)

Pardon my post, it wasn't aimed at you. I agree with what you're saying. I was talking about ELAW's post which said "And IMHO EFI systems have the potential to be more reliable which also impacts cost... replacing a $16 carburetor costs more than not replacing a $250 EFI module." Aparently forgetting that it cost $500 just for the privelidge of owning and testing a new, complex EFI system. He also said something to the effect of carburetors not costing as little as $16 when they were introduced. Right, they probably cost as little as a dollar or two, maybe .75 even. In 1925 a Model T cost under $300. I'm sure the carb didn't cost much at all. I'm also sure that it just got more expensive from that point on. Likewise, I don't expect the price of EFI to drop any faster than the price of a new snowblower. If it does, it still won't be anything I will want or need. K.I.S.S. B.T.W. ELAW I have a 70's car with a carburetor. It's a 1972 Pontiac Catalina Convertible. It always starts immediately and never have I had to restart it while on a trip because it stalled. Granted they got worse from there when in 1973 they started using cats and leaned out the mixture but a jet change and re-tune is cheap and easy. If you've never driven a carburetor or have forgotten what it's like to step on the gas and get instantaneous response from a well tuned engine go find one and try it. It sure beats stomping on the gas and waiting for the computer to rev up the engine a little. Drive by wire systems are even worse, they won't open the throttle all the way when you want, only when their programming says it's okay. Torque control, it may save the driveline from idiots but it sure makes for some dull engine response.


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## Jackmels (Feb 18, 2013)

tadawson said:


> You implied it was due to EFI, which is what I called BS on . . . 6 weeks for anything basically means there is a heck of a backlog, or thier service guys are just that slow, nothing more. No more likely to go to a dealer for an EFI machine as a carb.
> 
> Bonehead simple . . .



Your EFI broke, and the Dealer has a 6 week Backlog. Wait 6 weeks, Bonehead Simple


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## rslifkin (Mar 5, 2018)

Jackmels said:


> Your EFI broke, and the Dealer has a 6 week Backlog. Wait 6 weeks, Bonehead Simple


Wouldn't be an issue if the manufacturers gave appropriate info for troubleshooting the EFI stuff and parts availability was good (and cross references to common non-manufacturer-specific stuff were well known). But we've yet to reach the point of snowblower EFI being a well enough known quantity to DIY easily.


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## 2.137269 (Nov 15, 2019)

tadawson said:


> You implied it was due to EFI, which is what I called BS on . . . 6 weeks for anything basically means there is a heck of a backlog, or thier service guys are just that slow, nothing more. No more likely to go to a dealer for an EFI machine as a carb.
> 
> Bonehead simple . . .


it's not slow mechanic's, it how much area a shop has to cover, i live in a 69 sq mile town with out a single lawn gear shop. closest one is a 30 min drive via the highway,away . and right now are running 4 to 5 weeks for a repair with 4 men working from 0800 to 1800 hours m to f and 0800 to 1500 on sat's, 

there is more work than techs, that is a major issue, with anything mechanical, kids for the last 30 years only want to have clean hands jobs, very few have any interest in anything mechanical ,computer this computer that, turn a key on turn a key off

if you think 5 weeks is a lot. my plane is due for a 100 hour yearly, i'm in cue 3 months out for a local AP tech faa certified on my brand to do it. lucky i don't fly much in the winter so hanger time is no issue


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## 2.137269 (Nov 15, 2019)

rslifkin
it's not only snow blowers, please add in lawn tractors, and other machinery with Fi, all the engine makers are adding more engines with Fi to the list every year, kohler, lct, power more 'mtd motors" briggs, kawawaski, to name a few.

costs a shop out of pocket to go to or take online training schools, it takes a tech out of the shop while doing so,that adds to the backup in repairs, add to schools one needs to take in the cost of special tools to aid in the diag, it's not like cars just yet, where one can spend say 100 bucks on a obd tester, it's still brand specific , this for kohler,another for lct and so on , a kohler 2576150S Efi Diagnostic Tool costs the dealer or shop $475.00 just for one tool, a Kohler Part # 2576120S Rectifier Regulator Tester adds to costs $259.95
heck when i worked as a certified auto dealer master tech i had close to 100 grand in my boxes from over the many years, it's not cheap for a tech to be in the trade.


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

Jackmels said:


> Your EFI broke, and the Dealer has a 6 week Backlog. Wait 6 weeks, Bonehead Simple


No, You read the 6th grade level simple service manual and fix it yourself, same as your obsolete carbs. Stop peddling the BS that this isn't capable of being handled by an end user. It's just as likely as anything else *IF* the user can a) read and b) wants to. Parts are openly available as well. (No inferior Chinese IP theft parts yet, but that's not a bad thing . . .)

Maybe you can't understand it, but others certainly can . . . 

Bonehead simple!

(And likely to have a far lower failure rate as well . . . just need to teach the goobers to put down thier hammers and learn to read!)


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

rslifkin said:


> Wouldn't be an issue if the manufacturers gave appropriate info for troubleshooting the EFI stuff and parts availability was good (and cross references to common non-manufacturer-specific stuff were well known). But we've yet to reach the point of snowblower EFI being a well enough known quantity to DIY easily.


Ariens does - the EFI service manual is public, which is a good part of my point . . .


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

87powershiftx2 said:


> rslifkin
> it's not only snow blowers, please add in lawn tractors, and other machinery with Fi, all the engine makers are adding more engines with Fi to the list every year, kohler, lct, power more 'mtd motors" briggs, kawawaski, to name a few.
> 
> costs a shop out of pocket to go to or take online training schools, it takes a tech out of the shop while doing so,that adds to the backup in repairs, add to schools one needs to take in the cost of special tools to aid in the diag, it's not like cars just yet, where one can spend say 100 bucks on a obd tester, it's still brand specific , this for kohler,another for lct and so on , a kohler 2576150S Efi Diagnostic Tool costs the dealer or shop $475.00 just for one tool, a Kohler Part # 2576120S Rectifier Regulator Tester adds to costs $259.95
> heck when i worked as a certified auto dealer master tech i had close to 100 grand in my boxes from over the many years, it's not cheap for a tech to be in the trade.


Ariens didn't make that mistake. As per thier own service manual, there is no diag tool - the function is in the ECU . . . .It appears that they are trying tonavoid that costly lock-in/hurdle.


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

87powershiftx2 said:


> rslifkin
> it's not only snow blowers, please add in lawn tractors, and other machinery with Fi, all the engine makers are adding more engines with Fi to the list every year, kohler, lct, power more 'mtd motors" briggs, kawawaski, to name a few.
> 
> costs a shop out of pocket to go to or take online training schools, it takes a tech out of the shop while doing so,that adds to the backup in repairs, add to schools one needs to take in the cost of special tools to aid in the diag, it's not like cars just yet, where one can spend say 100 bucks on a obd tester, it's still brand specific , this for kohler,another for lct and so on , a kohler 2576150S Efi Diagnostic Tool costs the dealer or shop $475.00 just for one tool, a Kohler Part # 2576120S Rectifier Regulator Tester adds to costs $259.95
> heck when i worked as a certified auto dealer master tech i had close to 100 grand in my boxes from over the many years, it's not cheap for a tech to be in the trade.


Then you have to buy the computer laptop, then all the different diagnostic cables that have to be replaced, then the software for the computer, then all of the updates that have to be constantly updated and the cost for all of those, add that up and you have well over a thousand dollars more. 
Its not a "One Cable Fits All". Every manufacturer has a different cable and software program, they are not universal. Even the different types of equipment uses different cables.
Then just think when the little diagnostic light doesn't flash on the ECU. You need your computer to read the trouble codes unless you just start replacing a part that might not be needed to begin your diagnoses and troubleshooting.
You have to "Flash an update" to the ECU.
LCT is in its early stages yet, not like Briggs and Kohler, but give LCT time and they might get there with their Chinese made engines and parts that is used by Ariens.
Your larger engines and lawn and garden equipment are becoming just as complicated as an automobile and look at the costs just for the diagnostic tools just for the EFI alone, you don't just use a cheap multi-meter to read or diagnose it.
You have all of your different training schooling which takes time off from work. Someone has to pay for all of that besides all the special tools involved with EFI repair.
You take your machine to the shop and get a $100-200 bill just to have it hooked up to the computer for starting to diagnose it, that doesn't include any repair work or parts replacement, where as a typical carburetor cleaning might cost $50-100 and the job is done. You could be looking at a couple of hundred dollars in EFI parts on top of the diagnoses bill, and your better EFI systems have to be updated all the time, the manufacturers are constantly coming out with new EFI updates for their systems all the time that have to be installed to keep them under warranty.
If they were that "Bonehead simple" they would never break down and need repair or would never have to be taken back to the service department, they still have a long way to go yet before they are perfected.
If the guy at the shop says they are so bonehead simple, most people would walk away from them and find a reputable dealer that understands the technicalities of the actual systems, and if that particular system is that bonehead simple, it is not a very well advanced system, and would be better off being carbureted. If you only have 5 different parts to the entire system, and you just start replacing parts one by one until you find the problem, you are going to be spending a lot of unnecessary money without the proper diagnostic tools and a lot of the manufacturers specify what tools are made for or are compatible for use with diagnosing and working on their products to try and prevent false or inaccurate readings of their systems.


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## Jackmels (Feb 18, 2013)

tadawson said:


> No, You read the 6th grade level simple service manual and fix it yourself, same as your obsolete carbs. Stop peddling the BS that this isn't capable of being handled by an end user. It's just as likely as anything else *IF* the user can a) read and b) wants to. Parts are openly available as well. (No inferior Chinese IP theft parts yet, but that's not a bad thing . . .)
> 
> Maybe you can't understand it, but others certainly can . . .
> 
> ...





Your Ability to Spew Condescending Rhetoric is Second to None.


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## gibbs296 (Jun 22, 2014)

Isn't Ariens made or soon to be made in China anyhow? I would assume the EFI will be manufactured there as well on future models. It will be what it will be....


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

Most Ariens are assembled in the U.S. The LCT engines are made in China, the company has offices in the U.S.
But like everything else, they all keep going to China for the cheap slave labor to manufacture, but don't give the consumer the breaks on the price, that would take away from the big profits the CEO's make.


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

Jackmels said:


> Your Ability to Spew Condescending Rhetoric is Second to None.



And your ability to inspire fear over the simple is astounding. 



*NOTHING* I have said is not true . . . 

I live this stuff - it really is that easy - *IF* you are not a moron . . . .


I have not found *any* product produced in the last 20 years that I could not service. TV, VCR, car, microwave, you name it . . .


But the manufacturers have done a great job of BSing folks that you need to go see the local high school dropout for service. 

It was the point when support and service went from being a cost of doing business to being a profit center that they started to try to scare people, and apparently, a lot of them fell for it ... 



And frankly, parts really are not that bad in comparison. Needed to replace the mold in my refrigerator ice machine last week - $72 (the best I could find) to $125 for a molded piece of metal with a small heating element in it. Took me 15 minutes, but had I called someone in, easily $300 plus since apparently the going rate for dropouts has really gone up . . .


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

ST1100A said:


> Then you have to buy the computer laptop, then all the different diagnostic cables that have to be replaced, then the software for the computer, then all of the updates that have to be constantly updated and the cost for all of those, add that up and you have well over a thousand dollars more.
> Its not a "One Cable Fits All". Every manufacturer has a different cable and software program, they are not universal. Even the different types of equipment uses different cables.
> Then just think when the little diagnostic light doesn't flash on the ECU. You need your computer to read the trouble codes unless you just start replacing a part that might not be needed to begin your diagnoses and troubleshooting.
> You have to "Flash an update" to the ECU.
> ...



Put down the bong, and come back to the real world. Car EFI with it's EPA mandates and NHTSA involvement isn't even close to the same game. Most auto EFI updates are for EPA crap, not anything in terms of runs/doesn't run, and those systems are light years more advanced that the *ONE* system in discussion here - the current Ariens EFI, which has no need for computers, cables, software, etc. (and you could not use it if you tried - no diag port, *PERIOD*!). So, while fearmongering seems to be running rampant with the "old school" crowd, irrelevant data points really are just that, irrelevant. 



Oh, and while the sample set is not large, cars with carbs, I don't recall being able to go much more than a couple years without the need for a clean/rebuild on the carb on any old Detroit iron I ever dealt with. On the contrary, in all the years I have had (and family, friends, etc) EFI cars, I cannot remember a single instance of any problem that was EFI related . . . Smaller or not, the technology is solid. ****, there are even EFI model airplane engines that have been around 10+ years . . . It's nothing new to be afraid of!


Oh, and for cars, *most* service can be done with OBD-II, which is common to anything sold in North America. Many have alternates that are cheaper than the mfg. (read: priced to discourage 3rd party service) that are very reasonable - I have full diag, coding, you name it for our cars (can actually do *more* than the dealer tools - a lot of dealers use this) for a whopping $250 . . . 



All depends on how much you want to be independent and not ripped off . . . the tools are out there . . . *BUT* for the Ariens EFI, and voltmeter and maybe a scope is all that will ever be needed for the system as it exists today.


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

tadawson said:


> Put down the bong, and come back to the real world. Car EFI with it's EPA mandates and NHTSA involvement isn't even close to the same game. Most auto EFI updates are for EPA crap, not anything in terms of runs/doesn't run, and those systems are light years more advanced that the *ONE* system in discussion here - the current Ariens EFI, which has no need for computers, cables, software, etc. (and you could not use it if you tried - no diag port, *PERIOD*!). So, while fearmongering seems to be running rampant with the "old school" crowd, irrelevant data points really are just that, irrelevant.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry but all of your Briggs and Kohler use the computer diagnostic systems, they are much more higher tech than the LCT, they use a lot of computer diagnostics with expensive diagnostic cables and computer software that has to be continually updated. 
Your Kawasaki's also have that and the manufacturers of the higher tech equipment have been using computer diagnostics on their systems for years now. It is a whole lot more than a multi-meter, and when you have to "Flash" a system, the multi-meter wont do it.
You should go to some of the EFI training schools and seminars for the small engines, you would be surprised, they did get very technical with them because the EPA made them. They are starting to get a lot more like automotive now, running open loop and closed loop.
You would be interested in the update crap for small enignes, and it does exist big time for them. The updates for the small engines have 
not as much to do with EPA standards, as it is more for the engine running performance itself.
We are in modern times now with most engines, not back in the stone age anymore with bonehead simple 5 part EFI systems anymore like a few manufacturers still do. And it does cost a lot more to diagnose and repair them because they are becoming more advanced everyday. When you spend thousands of dollars for diagnostic equipment, tool and training you have to make that money spent on it up somehow,because without it you are not going to be able to diagnose and repair them, and if your service manual only shows you a chapter about the EFI system, it is not a quality EFI system at all.
A good EFI system manual has hundreds of pages in it and schooling goes on for days with hands on and classroom training. If they were all that bonehead simple, everyone could fix them by their selves and not have to take them to a shop in the first place.
What do you do when the little trouble light does not flash and the engine wont start, then the book you have doesn't explain much to you after you read it over and over, or if the book tells you to take it to the authorized dealer, or to use the special scanner tool that costs $500 that you don't have?
If you notice the article, people would be afraid to spend the money on a not so well built system because of its lower/new model/experimental class design, and when they need repair work, its going to be part replacement after part replacement until it runs again, and that cost adds up. People will be more inclined to stick with simple carburetors when they see that happen. Some people are afraid to be the "Guinea Pig Tester" with a new machine.
Don't forget, lawn and garden tractors also have snowblowers on them so you are not only dealing with small walk behind units with very small engines, some of your walk behind units also have larger 20 plus H.P. engines and some of them are EFI.
If the manufacturers read these posts, they will realize that people want something more simple to fix in a hurry if things go wrong with them. It might take money away from me and others who work in or have their own shops, but you want a satisfied customer who doesn't want to have their machine tied up in a shop for an extended period of time because it wont run.
I have been working with EFI systems for over the past three decades now and get to hear customer complaints all the time, and the biggest complaint is the costs of it, figure what a minor part like a fuel pump costs to replace.


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## 2.137269 (Nov 15, 2019)

"Ariens EFI" maybe seem simple yet we had the very same count the light bulb flashes way back in the middle 80's on early car efi systems.
tool wise want a good auto scanner be ready to drop enough to buy 2 deluxe snow blowers .yes that snap-on ethos edge in my box cost me 3 grand a solus system would have cost 4 grand


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

87powershiftx2 said:


> "Ariens EFI" maybe seem simple yet we had the very same count the light bulb flashes way back in the middle 80's on early car efi systems.
> tool wise want a good auto scanner be ready to drop enough to buy 2 deluxe snow blowers .yes that snap-on ethos edge in my box cost me 3 grand a solus system would have cost 4 grand


Yea and look what it costs to update that scanner tool all the time. You either have to buy a subscription for it or pay each time you update it, and they are not cheap to do, plus look at the price of the tool alone, then you have different cables that have to be purchased for it to communicate with the different machines/vehicles you are using it on. 

People wonder why it costs so much money just to have a vehicle or machine diagnosed with those tools but somebody has to pay for those tools to do the job and those scanners only last for so long and eventually they have to be replaced with newer versions because of how much and fast everything is changing with technology today.

Give it time and the LCT on the Ariens is going to do the same thing and be the same way as to needing a computer hook-up to diagnose it, gone will be the "Flashing Light" on the EFI Module.

Those flashing lights and generic scanners tell very little compared to what the high end expensive scanners can do.


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## 2.137269 (Nov 15, 2019)

yes it's a very big ouch , about a 1/2 months pay for many techs


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

ST1100A said:


> Sorry but all of your Briggs and Kohler use the computer diagnostic systems, they are much more higher tech than the LCT, they use a lot of computer diagnostics with expensive diagnostic cables and computer software that has to be continually updated.
> Your Kawasaki's also have that and the manufacturers of the higher tech equipment have been using computer diagnostics on their systems for years now. It is a whole lot more than a multi-meter, and when you have to "Flash" a system, the multi-meter wont do it.
> You should go to some of the EFI training schools and seminars for the small engines, you would be surprised, they did get very technical with them because the EPA made them. They are starting to get a lot more like automotive now, running open loop and closed loop.
> You would be interested in the update crap for small enignes, and it does exist big time for them. The updates for the small engines have
> ...


*STILL* not talking about anything but the current Ariens EFI implementation, so Briggs, Kohler, etc are *STILL* irrelevant to this discussion . . .

If they change it inthe future, we can talk about that then. *THIS* system is still 5 part simple . . .

Or is your main goal simply to obfuscate, confuse and fearmonger by constantly referring to things that have no bearing in this discussion about the Ariens/LCT snowblower system *ONLY*?


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## Zavie (Sep 23, 2014)

I talked with a family friend last night about his equipment. He has his own business running 9 Exmarks with Kohler EFI and a few John Deere ZTR's. He says the Kohler EFI software including diagnostics cable ran him $450. That and a PC is all his mechanic needs. He said they have a Bluetooth version out now for Android and Apple but for now he likes the PC version. He's not sure where thousands of dollars and seminars are needed, at least for his stuff. I'm on the fence about EFI for Ariens and I am keeping an open mind about it.


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## cranman (Jan 23, 2016)

I'm cool with anyone that wants EFI...I'm still not convinced there is any advantage over a carburetor, but thats OK.....I'm in love with the blowers pre 2004 or so so no EFI in my immediate future.......


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## rslifkin (Mar 5, 2018)

I'll agree that they haven't done anything fancy enough with it yet to make it a compelling advantage. The only big thing the EFI blowers have over the carbed ones at this point is the lower droop electronic governors. The rest of the advantages are fairly small. But if they develop the EFI systems a bit further along with corresponding engine improvements, they should be able to pull out some further fuel efficiency gains even if nothing else improves.


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

Zavie, it sounds like your friend has everything he needs for his work, it sounds like he has a lawn care business.
When you get into the dealerships and repair shops, they have to have that equipment for all the different manufacturers that they handle and that adds up in costs.
The Kohler equipment that he has, the price for software with a cable included, then when they start changing cables and when a cable is damaged that is has to be replaced add to the costs, plus then you have to get a computer to use the software in, and that can add another couple of hundred to over a thousand dollars just for the computer starts to get expensive.
Then figure you need all of that for each different manufacturer's product that you sell and service, you've got Briggs, Honda, Suzuki, Yamaha, Kawasaki, just to name a few, there are many other different manufacturers that you need the software and hardware,cables and all to go with, then you have to pay for updating the software all the time, it gets very expensive.
The training and seminars are required for your certifications that the technicians have so they can maintain them and for being able to do warranty work to be an authorized dealership and repair facility and remain a certified technician, plus to stay current with new products and everything else.
The small engine/outdoor power equipment business is becoming an expensive business to be in now days, its making its way up there almost like a car dealership with all the tools, training, insurance, inventory and everything else that goes along with it.
You might have $100,000 in hand tools alone, then start adding in all of your computerized tools that are required on top of your hand tools like wrenches and many specialized tools for what you are working on, it gets very expensive, when you figure you have as much if not more just in your tool box than what a house with the land costs.
That does get some technicians upset when certain people refer to them as "High School Drop-Outs".


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

Having all that stuff does not make one a genius by any stretch of the imagination. 



I base my assessment on what I see - most of the time, someone who is intellectually challenged bashing two rocks together . . . although, there are exceptions . . .


Heck, just look at the amount of misinformation on the Ariens EFI here, where folks tend to be better than average . . .


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## 2.137269 (Nov 15, 2019)

ST1100A

seems you and i plus a few other guys understand the costs of running a shop and difficulties of finding REAL techs. real world good reputation shops don't have low grade techs, those that do, don't have a backup's of weeks plus to get repairs made, 

what we need to do is stop pushing collage at every kid, bring back trade schools people can afford, not the ones seen on tv that really are trade collages that cost as much as, 


back to subject

people need to understand the issue is clean air laws, small engine us emission rules on ope are being seen more and more every year there will be days soon where the systems are sealed tamper proof .


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## rslifkin (Mar 5, 2018)

87powershiftx2 said:


> people need to understand the issue is clean air laws, small engine us emission rules on ope are being seen more and more every year there will be days soon where the systems are sealed tamper proof .



Hopefully the learning curve will go somewhat like it did with cars. Where the early solutions seem not so great, but then as they figure out better ways to meet the new rules without driving the price too high, they end up figuring out other improvements along the way. Which is how we got to the point we're at now where cars are far more powerful than they used to be but also cleaner and engine-wise more efficient (overall efficiency suffers from size and weight gain though).


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## leonz (Dec 12, 2014)

One has to ask; 

"Would it not be "far simpler" for the layperson, the power equipment dealers and manufacturers to just use smaller catalytic converters? 

I had a Foley Engine Service catalytic converter on my firewood processor because the GX340 exhaust fumes made me sick every time I used it even after I warmed the engine and log splitter up with my kerosene fired space heater. 

As long as the catalytic converter is not plugged from a bad fuel system or leaking piston rings the exhaust will continue to be carbon dioxide and water vapor and non toxic.

The number of hours it would take for a catalytic converter to plug in seasonal service would be so high that the catalytic converter could simply be swapped to the next engine or snow blower with no issue.


My thoughts on a crappy, rainy, and foggy day on my mountain.


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## 2.137269 (Nov 15, 2019)

rslifkin said:


> Hopefully the learning curve will go somewhat like it did with cars. Where the early solutions seem not so great, but then as they figure out better ways to meet the new rules without driving the price too high, they end up figuring out other improvements along the way. Which is how we got to the point we're at now where cars are far more powerful than they used to be but also cleaner and engine-wise more efficient (overall efficiency suffers from size and weight gain though).


you ,myself and a lot of others hope so. as to early early emission when we had cats and carbs yet . obd issues on cars i remember them all to well, it took dealers and mechanics a long time to adjust and a lot of money to have scanners for each brand. multiple cable for brands,lists of where the plugs were, we dealt with a lot of clogged cat issues, lots of bad designed sensors , and o-yes air pumps, before obd 1 helped obd 2 much better now a scanner is even a trouble shooter .

here IMM i'm praying for simple, some ope motors will get cats and leaner sealed carbs before efi some will get both right away, as leon just wrote, just adding a cat cleans many up big time,while not hurting performance, this i know from buying a kit to use on a kohler sv730 v twin that's on my lt1050 cub, before it was so dirty it was hard to use,now it's so clean even the grumpy old wife is willing to mow the lawn, 
lets hope for simple


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

Myself, while more complexity may be inevitable, I have to hand it to Ariens for trying to keep the system as simple as possible at this point. Seems like they are trying to keep it in reach of most shops and end users, and not requiring any investment in special tools/computers/scanners/etc. at this point. I think that they understand that a huge convoluted mess of a product very well may cost them customers. So far this year, it seems like the only problems I have read here may well be due to failing to read the docs and assemble it correctly . . .

I just wish we could know how many have sold. In my area, seems like the general shops have the baseline EFI models, and the dealers don't carry any - in thier 'exclusive' lines, or any other . . . only reason I was given was $$$ . . . but wonder if they have just not bothered to train/qualify for it (nomidea what/if Ariens may require of a dealer . . .).


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

It is getting to the point now with all of the emission compliance that a cheap $200 lawn mower is going to cost in upwards of $1000 because of the things necessary to make it compliant with pollution laws.
They are already making small push mowers with EFI and look at the price on them.
Our government has to cut back a bit on their insane regulations. They want everything battery powered, but they forget that it takes a generating station to produce the electricity to charge the batteries, and to fast charge them, it takes a lot of electricity quickly, that puts a strain on the power companies and generating stations to produce the electricity. They have to burn fuel to produce it, so there is more pollution right there.
Then the batteries do not last forever and have to be replaced frequently, look at the cost of the battery, and they can only be recycled so many times, after that they have to be disposed.
Then look at how toxic the batteries are with the highly toxic substances they are made with. If it wasn't toxic, you could just throw them in the garbage and be done with them, get caught doing that now and you are in for a big fine or jail time.
The batteries are more harmful and dangerous to the environment than any fossil fuel is and ever was, but our government keeps forcing it on us.
You have some of the newer companies trying their hand at EFI, trying to keep it simple, and give them time and they will be just as complicated as the other higher tech ones to try to keep up with them or be forced to in order to meet regulations.
You have people trained to service these new complicated systems and when they get a "Simple System" they would rather just throw it away because its not worth fixing.
You get a guy who just came back from having his car repaired due to a EFI-Emission related problem and he is broke from the bill and needs to buy a new lawn mower, and now he cant afford a nice one, so he has to get the cheapest he can get, and that's going to cost him a thousand dollars because of the EPA requirements, or he wanted to get the newest latest set-up with EFI that was "Marketed" so heavily, and now he is afraid to buy it because he just got slammed with a large bill for his auto repair because his EPA required EFI/Computerized system failed somehow, and that just scared him away from the "New Technology" lawn mower he was going to purchase.
Where will it ever end? We wonder that every day.


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

"The coal powered electric lawn mower" no argument there . . . 

Despite the EPA mandates, I still feel that EFI is a more reliable, more accurate system. May cost more to fix, but you should need to fix it a lot less, and hopefully mfg's can adjust warranties accordingly to alleviate the fears. I believe that the EPA also mandates a minimum warranty/service life on emission parts (EFI included), and if they get heavy handed on this stuff, with any luck, they will force the warranty issue as well. 

Myself, I like what I am seeing in the simpler current Ariens system, and still trying to find a way in without basically eating an entire new blower . . .


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## 2.137269 (Nov 15, 2019)

yes it will be more reliable as time and hands on in the shops wise up owners and techs,till than it's pray,

ok right now if one looks at lawn mowers brand names don't matter google up fuel injected out door power equipment. on many ,esp, tractors and 0 turns , we see charcoal canisters, vent less gas caps, special fuel hose, epa rule wise https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-i...5af7c09e88&mc=true&node=pt40.36.1054&rgn=div5
emission warranty wise it varies by cc, and if a 2 or 4 stroke


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## 2.137269 (Nov 15, 2019)

some good reading https://outdoorpowerequipment.com/2009/08/24/tech2tech-efidfi-series-part-ii-efidfi-theory/2622/
and https://outdoorpowerequipment.com/?s=ope+fuel+injection


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## Snowbelt_subie (Dec 20, 2016)

Within 10 years I believe most power equipment will either efi or have some sort of electronic management system.

I dont fault ariens they are trying to be at the forefront of efi and will be better for it compared to the other manufacturers once the epa mandates it.

Stihl and husqvarna have electronic systems auto tune on certain chainsaws and have had problems with them. They monitor air fuel ratios and timing for the conditions and adjust accordingly.

Stihl is the gold standard in handheld equipment and they are having problems with new technology. It comes with the territory when releasing new technology.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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