# What would you do? New Snow blower delivered from dealer with issues?



## steeve725 (Jan 25, 2014)

Today I got my new Toro QZE 821 delivered from a Toro dealer near me, it was actually delivered from the owner himself.

Upon arrival the gas tank has two gouges in it, and the handle where the pull cord attachment attaches there’s a large scratch as well.

Then on top of that he does not bring the owners manual.

I asked him about the scratches, he told me I could just go get some touch up paint. I was not real thrilled with his answer. I asked him about the owners manual he said that he’ll see if he can get one from the shop and mail it to me. I know I can download one off the Internet, but that’s not the point

He charged my credit card prior to delivering my snowblower.

I excepted the snowblower, letting him know my frustrations about the scratches and he went on his way

After he left, I moved the snowblower to a level spot in my garage. I opened the dipstick for the oil and oil poured all over the floor. A bunch of oil, which shows me that it was overfilled.

Here’s a video of the oil being over filled

https://vimeo.com/366352688

I emailed the owner, the person that delivered the snowblower. I told the owner in the email that he can bring me a new snowblower, ensure that it’s a perfect cosmetic and mechanical condition, no scratches, oil level filled appropriately, and an owners manual. Then we can exchange that for the one he originally delivered. 

Or he can come pick up the snowblower and provide me a refund.

If neither work I can bring it back to this dealer, and just get a refund myself.

This Dealer has been in business for over 25 years, and as a family business. Very good reviews. I didn’t expect the poor attention to detail with the scratches, oil being over filled, and not even bringing owners manual.

Prior to this, I was going to order my snowblower from Home Depot, I’ve ordered my last two snowblowers from Home Depot they arrived in perfect condition, I assembled them myself, and never had an issue with either one. This time I decided to go through a dealer.

I haven’t heard back from the dealer, I’m waiting to see what he does, or says.


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## RIT333 (Feb 6, 2014)

Stinks royally. Let us know what the dealer does. I would probably plead your case with Toro, and get them involved. Can you stop payment on your purchase to get some leverage?


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## steeve725 (Jan 25, 2014)

RIT333 said:


> Stinks royally. Let us know what the dealer does. I would probably plead your case with Toro, and get them involved. Can you stop payment on your purchase to get some leverage?


At this time I’m not gonna contact my credit card and try to stop payment. I’m gonna give this dealer today to see if he’ll get back with me and see what he’ll says or he’ll do to make it right.

Yea, It sucks. I’m frustrated.


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## LoganH (Oct 27, 2018)

steeve725 said:


> At this time I’m not gonna contact my credit card and try to stop payment. I’m gonna give this dealer today to see if he’ll get back with me and see what he’ll says or he’ll do to make it right.
> 
> Yea, It sucks. I’m frustrated.


 I wouldn't wait Cancelling the CC purchase. After all, you aren't going to accept that blower so why pay for it, unless you got the "scratch and dent" or "just used in the shop" demo discount.


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## orangputeh (Nov 24, 2016)

steeve725 said:


> Today I got my new Toro QZE 821 delivered from a Toro dealer near me, it was actually delivered from the owner himself.
> 
> Upon arrival the gas tank has two gouges in it, and the handle where the pull cord attachment attaches there’s a large scratch as well.
> 
> ...


With all due respect you should not have accepted the snowblower. That's water under the bridge so you did the right thing in asking for a replacement or refund. I would strongly recommend filing a dispute with your CC company and letting the business know about it. CC companies take disputes very seriously and usually go in favor with the customer. That is why we make major purchases with our AMX or CITI Visa card. We have never lost a dispute.

It seems like this business owner thinks by ignoring you , you will go away. Let him know about the dispute and don't go away until you receive satisfaction.


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## tdipaul (Jul 11, 2015)

Call Toro Corporate's customer service and let them manhandle this guy. He should stand to attention when they come a calling.


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## leonz (Dec 12, 2014)

Its four o'clock out there now so you better call quick before they roll up the sidewalks at their office.

You need to dispute the credit card charge today too as he never should have charged you before he delivered it.


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## steeve725 (Jan 25, 2014)

orangputeh said:


> steeve725 said:
> 
> 
> > Today I got my new Toro QZE 821 delivered from a Toro dealer near me, it was actually delivered from the owner himself.
> ...


Yes, your right, I shouldn’t have accepted it.

I did finally hear back from the owner of the dealer.

He told me in a very short brief email reply “I’ll give you a refund and come pick it up, I’ll let you know when”

Now off to look for another dealer or place to buy it from.

What an experience buying from a dealer. I’ve purchased 2 snowblowers from dealers and the rest used off Craigslist and 2 from Home Depot. 

This dealer experience has been the worst experience yet. 

At least with craigslist you know the items used and you’re not expecting as much. The first dealer I bought from many years ago went well, it was a Honda snowblower. I like Toro single stages better.

And yes, wow lots of people knock Home Depot, I understand why, I’ve had great experience. 

When there’s snow blowers at Home Depot that you have to purchase online, (the QZE 821 is not sold locally at any one of my Home Depot’s) I go to the service desk order it online where I could still get my military discount, and they ordered directly from Toro. This is What I’ve done with them to last snow blowers I’ve purchased from Home Depot

If I can’t find another dealer that has it in stock and doesn’t want to match the price that this dealer gave me, I may have to go the route of buying from Home Depot. I can put them together, I’ve done in the past.

It’s hard to let this dealer experience not bother me and put a bad taste in my mouth. Yes it’s my fault for excepting the snowblower in this condition, and I understand that.

He told me he’s going to give me a full refund and come pick it up. I’ll see when and if this happens.


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## John Wallace (Sep 17, 2019)

I would have told him "You go get some touch up paint ,when you take it back to where you brought it from " ,that is lazy business there , I bought a new Toro mower from an authorized dealer and i said something about credit terms after looking at the Toro website , and the guy behind the counter said , " It dont work that way ?" ,you figure a dealer would know what is on the company website regarding financing options , then you can sell more inventory , to make a long story short i was not impressed with that Toro dealer .


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## Zavie (Sep 23, 2014)

I asked about Ariens Credit offers when I was purchasing my Ariens Pro 28. The Toro/Ariens dealer I bought it from asked if I had a Toro card. I said sure, and they said that you can also make non-Toro purchases using that account. I jumped at the 0% for 12 months offer. My dealer experience was excellent but they are not local. I had to go an extra 40 minutes away because my local full line Ariens dealer is not the best.


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## steeve725 (Jan 25, 2014)

John Wallace said:


> I would have told him "You go get some touch up paint ,when you take it back to where you brought it from " ,that is lazy business there , I bought a new Toro mower from an authorized dealer and i said something about credit terms after looking at the Toro website , and the guy behind the counter said , " It dont work that way ?" ,you figure a dealer would know what is on the company website regarding financing options , then you can sell more inventory , to make a long story short i was not impressed with that Toro dealer .


I have a very complex schedule, and the dealer knows my schedule. 

I’m only available on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays. 

He brought it out on Monday. I emailed him yesterday (Tuesday) after he said he’s gonna give me a refund and come pick it up and then he waits till this afternoon (Wednesday) to tell me he can’t come out, so that leaves Friday. 

I told him to get back with me and let me know the exact day you’ll be out. 

If I don’t hear back from him or he wants to put it off I’ll let him know that I’ll contact my credit card company and let them know the situation.

This is a mess.


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## mobiledynamics (Nov 21, 2014)

Gosh. I'm sorry to hear. I was hoping for your feedback. I am considering this - to replace my Honda 621


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## steeve725 (Jan 25, 2014)

mobiledynamics said:


> Gosh. I'm sorry to hear. I was hoping for your feedback. I am considering this - to replace my Honda 621


I’ll tell you one thing about the new Toro QZE 821.

Toro misrepresented it. 

In the picture on there website toro shows it has a fill tube to fill the oil, just like there other 252cc engines on the 824 oe, etc

https://www.toro.com/en/parts/partdetails?id=49656 engine detail on there website for the QZE 821

Look at the picture they show on toro.com, parts, engine assembly. You’ll see it shows a fill tube instead of filling through the small hole were the dipstick is.

Again on the actual Toro QZE 821 machine you fill the oil through the small hole were the dipstick is, like the Toro 621 & 721

I’m still going to get another 821 from someplace 

I found another dealer that will match the price I paid from from this bad dealer. However they said they will charge a $40 delivery fee to deliver to me 25 miles away. Not sure if this is normal or not.

If I have it delivered, it’ll cost me more than buying it from torodealer.com and having it shipped directly from toro. 

I can’t buy from anyone else until this bad dealer comes and picks up the one he delivered and refunds my money like he said he would. If I don’t hear from this bad dealer by the tomorrow morning, I’ll have no choice but to contact my credit card company.


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## foggysail (Feb 21, 2015)

As others suggested........ calling your CC company I believe would should have been done immediately. A couple of years ago this season I purchased a Ariens 28 Pro ON LINE (Ebay) for about 1900 with free delivery......brand new. My point, something to consider


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## steeve725 (Jan 25, 2014)

foggysail said:


> As others suggested........ calling your CC company I believe would should have been done immediately. A couple of years ago this season I purchased a Ariens 28 Pro ON LINE (Ebay) for about 1900 with free delivery......brand new. My point, something to consider


In the last email I sent him I told him to reply to me today. If I do not hear from him, I will first thing in the morning be contacting my credit card company.

I’m currently struggling with the fact, do I buy from this other dealer since they will charge me a $40 delivery fee making it more expensive than buying from Toro dealer.com and having one shipped from Toro directly to my house so I can set it up, fill the oil myself, etc.

Or do I go to the Home Depot service desk, have them order it for me online from Home Depot so I get a military discount, and Home Depot will have a ship directly from Toro.

Buying from the new dealer is the most expensive option by far.

The new dealer is $85 more than Home Depot

I’m frustrated so much by this bad dealer.


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## WVguy (Nov 24, 2018)

steeve725 said:


> I’m currently struggling with the fact, do I buy from this other dealer since they will charge me a $40 delivery fee making it more expensive than buying from Toro dealer.com and having one shipped from Toro directly to my house so I can set it up, fill the oil myself, etc.


If it makes you feel any better consider that the $40 delivery fee for a 25 mile delivery trip (50 miles round trip for him) is not unreasonable. How much would you charge? Even if he's using a light pickup truck, given the cost-per-mile expenses of running it (which is more than just fuel) and the cost of his own time (which for a business does have value) he's probably not even breaking even on that.

All this just goes to show that "Buy from a dealer" is not always the best advice. Sometimes Home Depot can do things better than a dealer. When it come down to it, what matters is the people putting it together and handling things, not who employs them.


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## steeve725 (Jan 25, 2014)

foggysail said:


> As others suggested........ calling your CC company I believe would should have been done immediately. A couple of years ago this season I purchased a Ariens 28 Pro ON LINE (Ebay) for about 1900 with free delivery......brand new. My point, something to consider


I told the dealer to let me know yesterday when he was going to come and pick it up (I gave him several dates and times I could be available) and refund my money. I said in an earlier post that if I didn't hear back from him yesterday, than this morning I was going to call my CC company. 

I didn't hear back from the dealer, so 1st thing this morning I contacted my CC company. 

I explained everything to my CC company and they started a dispute. They stated that they will put a conditional credit on my account. At least this way, I know I'll get my money back on way or another, since I have it in writing in that he said he'd refund my money. 

If the dealer comes out and picks it up and refunds my money, then I call my CC company and let them know. 

:smile2: Thanks everyone for the suggestions. I appreciate the input.


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## BazookaJoe (Oct 6, 2019)

Just curious- How badly scratched is your snowblower? Maybe it is easier to touch up the paint, drain off the excess oil, and just keep what you have. The extra oil probably didn't hurt anything and then you'd be done with all the shopping.


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## steeve725 (Jan 25, 2014)

BazookaJoe said:


> Just curious- How badly scratched is your snowblower? Maybe it is easier to touch up the paint, drain off the excess oil, and just keep what you have. The extra oil ft probably didn't hurt anything and then you'd be done with all the shopping.


For starters its the principal, why should I spend a bunch of money for a “New” Snowblower, and then go have to buy touch up paint? Also, the fact that it being over filled with oil, and the owner himself not even bringing an owners manual.

Attention to detail, definitely is not part of this shop.

To answer your question about the scratches, one is a scratch in the handle and two are gouges and they’re both in the gas tank.

As for being done with my shopping, after this mess with this dealer, I would feel much more comfortable buying it somewhere else and I will buy elsewhere


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## toms (Nov 17, 2017)

When I bought my Honda Blower I had trouble finding a dealer that would give it to me in the box so i could assemble it. I have gone through the same kind of BS with Outdoor Power Equipment dealers and their attention to detail. They only seem to care about their commercial customers and those customers could care less about scratches and dents in a new piece of equipment.


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## BazookaJoe (Oct 6, 2019)

Yeah, the dealer shouldn't be bringing you a scratch and dent special at full price. He should exchange it or give you a refund. It'll be best for everybody if you buy the new snowblower somewhere else.


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## steeve725 (Jan 25, 2014)

The dealer has not contacted me either by phone or email to let me know when he’s going to come out and pick it up. He did already agree that he would refund my money and pick it up. After my last email, I’m not hearing from him.

In addition to starting a dispute with my credit card company today against the dealer, I tried calling Toro and filing a complaint against this dealer and letting them know the issues I’ve had. 

When I called and finally got to the point where I could talk to someone, they were closed.

I don’t know if calling Toro would help or would they even care, because this is a bigger dealer that’s been dealing with Toro for over 25 years.


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

An Authorized Honda Dealer isn't allowed to sell new products "In The Box". They have to be assembled, oiled and fueled, and running before a customer takes delivery. They have to be gone over and test run to make sure everything works properly before they are allowed to go "Out The Door".
If an Authorized Honda Dealer does not do that, they are not a good dealership and I would stay away from them.
Home Cheapo and other Big Box Stores are allowed to sell their new Honda's "In The Box", and let the buyer assemble them and prep them for operation.


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## Shovel (Mar 26, 2019)

I can understand the frustration.. buy something new and they dropped it while putting in the truck or something... How did they even overfill it that much unless it uses a top dipstick.. what kind of dealer doesn't check the oil after he fills it anyway?
Money back and never do business with them again... He should have offered a discount to at least see if it was possible to retain you as a customer. 

Sent from my LM-Q710.FG using Tapatalk


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## steeve725 (Jan 25, 2014)

Shovel said:


> I can understand the frustration.. buy something new and they dropped it while putting in the truck or something... How did they even overfill it that much unless it uses a top dipstick.. what kind of dealer doesn't check the oil after he fills it anyway?
> Money back and never do business with them again... He should have offered a discount to at least see if it was possible to retain you as a customer.
> 
> Sent from my LM-Q710.FG using Tapatalk


Yea, He knew my frustration. As for trying to keep one customer happy, I don’t think that’s his goal. He has a large dealership that has been in business for many, many years. 

I could be wrong as I have been wrong before, but I kind of get the feeling that he’s going to start ignoring me, hoping that I will never do anything about this (even though yesterday I contacted my credit card company, and started a dispute) and I’ll just stay with the snow blower. 

We’ll see what happens, if he follows through with his word and comes and picks it up and refunds my money


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## crazzywolfie (Jun 2, 2014)

steeve725 said:


> I could be wrong as I have been wrong before, but I kind of get the feeling that he’s going to start ignoring me, hoping that I will never do anything about this (even though yesterday I contacted my credit card company, and started a dispute) and I’ll just stay with the snow blower.


if he does ignore you and forces you to dispute the charges you may want to leave him a bad review on facebook and google. that is definitely not how to run a business especially in today's day and age. might have worked back in the day before social media but pulling crap like that these days can seriously hurt if not put you out of business.


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## gibbs296 (Jun 22, 2014)

If it were ME I would just call the dealer back and keep it. I know it's not perfect but nothing ever stays that way anyhow. Have an adult beverage or 2, count your blessings, and I'm sure there will be a big grin on your face the first time you put that new machine to work!


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## Grunt (Nov 11, 2013)

I agree with a few scratches being acceptable, but the over filled oil, no manuals or safety and operation instruction is definitely a negative.


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## crazzywolfie (Jun 2, 2014)

gibbs296 said:


> If it were ME I would just call the dealer back and keep it. I know it's not perfect but nothing ever stays that way anyhow. Have an adult beverage or 2, count your blessings, and I'm sure there will be a big grin on your face the first time you put that new machine to work!


i would just be worried what else could be wrong or not set right if they couldn't do simple stuff like get the oil level right. if they were a good shop it should have probably never left the shop. even suggesting that it can be touched up but not do it seems pretty crappy of the owner to do. they should have done it and delivered a nice machine. yes it is bound to get scratched or dinged up eventually but i usually like to do that myself.


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## steeve725 (Jan 25, 2014)

crazzywolfie said:


> gibbs296 said:
> 
> 
> > If it were ME I would just call the dealer back and keep it. I know it's not perfect but nothing ever stays that way anyhow. Have an adult beverage or 2, count your blessings, and I'm sure there will be a big grin on your face the first time you put that new machine to work!
> ...


Yeah the few reasons I’m not keeping the snow blower, yes are the scratches, that’s attention to detail. The dealer obviously does not pay attention to detail, because of the scratches and not bringing an owners manual but then to overflow fill the oil, you’re right if they couldn’t do simple stuff like get the oil level right, they probably not a good shop. 

In the last email I sent the dealer explaining the days and times I would be available this week for him to come pick up a Snowblower and give me a refund is today. 

However the dealer has not replied to my last email a couple days ago.

I did call Toro this morning, explained the situation, they looked at his dealer info, asked me the name of the person I dealt with, and they said they would call the dealer. I don’t know if Toro did, or if they will even call the dealer and if so what will come out of that.

Regardless I’m not worried about it, I’ve got a conditional credit on my credit card for the amount I paid the dealer, and as far as winning the dispute with the credit card, I’ll win that, I have the emails that shows he said he’ll refund me and come pick up the machine.

If he doesn’t come pick up the machine soon or refund me, when the credit card company takes the money back from his bank, they’ll charge him a fee in addition to taking the money back. I’m sure he won’t like that.


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## Shovel (Mar 26, 2019)

steeve725 said:


> Yea, He knew my frustration. As for trying to keep one customer happy, I don’t think that’s his goal. He has a large dealership that has been in business for many, many years.
> 
> I could be wrong as I have been wrong before, but I kind of get the feeling that he’s going to start ignoring me, hoping that I will never do anything about this (even though yesterday I contacted my credit card company, and started a dispute) and I’ll just stay with the snow blower.
> 
> We’ll see what happens, if he follows through with his word and comes and picks it up and refunds my money


Very unprofessional shop for sure.
Had he apologized and offered you a decent discount you probably would have been happy...He isn't thinking ahead in terms of a repeat customer.
Any decent place will take a small loss as it makes the customer happy /the customer will be back and they will make profit the next round...Its how how used car dealerships grow for instance..A car dealer takes care of the issue or half it....a bond is developed and it's where the customer goes again for his next vehicle...screw a guy once and he won't be back.




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## brickcity (Jan 23, 2014)

one good thing. were not getting snow anytime soon so you should have everything corrected by crunch time.


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## steeve725 (Jan 25, 2014)

Shovel said:


> steeve725 said:
> 
> 
> > Yea, He knew my frustration. As for trying to keep one customer happy, I don’t think that’s his goal. He has a large dealership that has been in business for many, many years.
> ...


I couldn't agree more.

I was told by my dad many years ago. He owned his own construction business. He had lots of repeat business.

"Word of mouth is the best advertising, it can make or break a company. And it's free" 

Is even more true with today's social media. 

Treat people the way you want to be treated. 

Karma.


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## steeve725 (Jan 25, 2014)

brickcity said:


> one good thing. were not getting snow anytime soon so you should have everything corrected by crunch time.


Yea. We had our 1st snow already. About 2" but it was 80° the day before so it didn't sick to the driveway, only grass. 

For me the 10 day forecast shows 2 days with a chance of snow mix. So yea, I'm not worried about snow in the near future. 

That'll give me plenty of time to get through this mess. 

It's going to work out for the best.


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## WVguy (Nov 24, 2018)

steeve725 said:


> Regardless I’m not worried about it, I’ve got a conditional credit on my credit card for the amount I paid the dealer, and as far as winning the dispute with the credit card, I’ll win that, I have the emails that shows he said he’ll refund me and come pick up the machine.


He may not even do that. This goes back in time a bit, a guy at work bought a lemon Toro lawn mower, got it home and it wouldn't start (or something like that, I forget exactly). He called the dealer and told them to come and get it and he contested the charge on his credit card. He got his money credited on the charge, and the lawn mower sat out front for a year before it disappeared.


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## johnnytuinals (Sep 25, 2019)

I just got my delivery on my Toro PowerMax 1028.
The person that brought my New snowblower showed me how it works and started it.
I did not get a Manual with mine(Think many people don't get a manual from my reading}
I did not check the oil but hope all works out.
Get a Credit card credit and if worst case go to small claims court since you have a Email from him taking it back...…….JT


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## AnOldGearhead (Nov 18, 2017)

steeve725 said:


> Today I got my new Toro QZE 821 delivered from a Toro dealer near me, it was actually delivered from the owner himself.
> 
> Upon arrival the gas tank has two gouges in it, and the handle where the pull cord attachment attaches there’s a large scratch as well.



Would you post pics of the gouges and scratch while you still can? I've seen the overfilled oil video but I'm curious to see that too.


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## steeve725 (Jan 25, 2014)

WVguy said:


> steeve725 said:
> 
> 
> > Regardless I’m not worried about it, I’ve got a conditional credit on my credit card for the amount I paid the dealer, and as far as winning the dispute with the credit card, I’ll win that, I have the emails that shows he said he’ll refund me and come pick up the machine.
> ...


Wow, That's crazy.

We'll see how long this continues.


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## steeve725 (Jan 25, 2014)

AnOldGearhead said:


> steeve725 said:
> 
> 
> > Today I got my new Toro QZE 821 delivered from a Toro dealer near me, it was actually delivered from the owner himself.
> ...


Here are the ones on the gas tank. One is almost an1” long, and the other it’s close to 1/2” long


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## enigma-2 (Feb 11, 2014)

johnnytuinals said:


> I just got my delivery on my Toro PowerMax 1028.
> The person that brought my New snowblower showed me how it works and started it.
> I did not get a Manual with mine(Think many people don't get a manual from my reading}
> I did not check the oil but hope all works out.
> Get a Credit card credit and if worst case go to small claims court since you have a Email from him taking it back...…….JT


You probably didn't get a manual because the idiot for to throw it on the truck. Yes, you ARE supposed to get ALL of the paperwork with the machine.

When the guy delivered my Ariens a few years ago, I had to ask for the manual. He made up an excuse about not needed it and told him to put it back on the trailer; I was refusing it. Surprise. He had it in the back seat of his truck. He had delivered other units before mine and there were other manuals on his back seat as well. (I have a feeling that delivery is a necessary evil with these guys).


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## Shovel (Mar 26, 2019)

steeve725 said:


> Here are the ones on the gas tank. One is almost an1” long, and the other it’s close to 1/2” long


It's not terrible ..but obvious.
I say ... Try for free set of chains or drift cutters from the shop...They bring the chains and put em on is what I would try for.
Small sharpie will hide most of those scratches

Edit.
Nevermind I just googled it ...it's a single stage

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## steeve725 (Jan 25, 2014)

Shovel said:


> steeve725 said:
> 
> 
> > Here are the ones on the gas tank. One is almost an1” long, and the other it’s close to 1/2” long
> ...


Yea, that won’t happen Because I’m not gonna deal with this dealer again.

I’m only gonna deal with him to get my money back and for him to pick this machine up

Chains or drift cutters do not apply, because this is a Toro QZE821 single stage snowblower.


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## crazzywolfie (Jun 2, 2014)

Shovel said:


> It's not terrible ..but obvious.
> I say ... Try for free set of chains or drift cutters from the shop...They bring the chains and put em on is what I would try for.


would you really want to deal with a dealer that cause such a headache over bs stuff? i would probably never want to deal with them again. they had their chance to make things right and blew it


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## steeve725 (Jan 25, 2014)

crazzywolfie said:


> Shovel said:
> 
> 
> > It's not terrible ..but obvious.
> ...


Yea he blew it. Don’t forget this was the actual owner of the shop that delivered it. 

The dealer (owner) after I sent him my last email several days ago with dates and times that I would make myself available to be home for him to come out and refund my money and pick up the snowblower, he has not shown up to any of those dates or times, not emailed me back since that email.

I’m beginning to think, that he (the owner of the shop) ignores this problem it’ll just go away.

It’s not just going to go away. 

I’m glad that credit cards have these type of protections built into them and I contacted them and started the dispute process.


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## Shovel (Mar 26, 2019)

crazzywolfie said:


> would you really want to deal with a dealer that cause such a headache over bs stuff? i would probably never want to deal with them again. they had their chance to make things right and blew it


I just googled it...it's a high dollar single stage...so you are right..I paid big money so I want it in new condition when it arrives ...If they are still are ignoring you then screw em



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## steeve725 (Jan 25, 2014)

Well I just looked at my credit card online. 

They gave me a “Conditional credit for dispute" for the money I paid for the snow blower.

I could be wrong, but I would think I'd be hearing from the dealer very soon when he finds out the money I paid him is now being held and the snow blower is in my possession.


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## foggysail (Feb 21, 2015)

steeve725 said:


> Well I just looked at my credit card online.
> 
> They gave me a “Conditional credit for dispute" for the money I paid for the snow blower.
> 
> I could be wrong, but I would think I'd be hearing from the dealer very soon when he finds out the money I paid him is now being held and the snow blower is in my possession.


Most likely, the dealer already was paid by your CC company leaving it to pursue getting its payment returned. I don’t know what a ‘’conditional credit’’ means. It could mean the condition for refund is when the dealer takes the machine back. Earlier someone suggested small claims court. That suggestion should not be ignored.


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## steeve725 (Jan 25, 2014)

[/quote] Most likely, the dealer already was paid by your CC company leaving it to pursue getting its payment returned. I don’t know what a ‘’conditional credit’’ means. It could mean the condition for refund is when the dealer takes the machine back. Earlier someone suggested small claims court. That suggestion should not be ignored.[/QUOTE]

This is what a conditional credit is; When you dispute a charge from a merchant, a conditional credit may be issued to your account. A conditional credit is temporary and it applies until your inquiry is resolved. Depending on the outcome of the inquiry, the conditional credit will either become permanent or be removed.

I'm glad I have the email from the owner saying "I will give you a refund and pick it up" 

That's why I haven't called him. I wanted everything in writing. I have all the emails between us until he no longer decided to reply.


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## foggysail (Feb 21, 2015)

Most likely, the dealer already was paid by your CC company leaving it to pursue getting its payment returned. I don’t know what a ‘’conditional credit’’ means. It could mean the condition for refund is when the dealer takes the machine back. Earlier someone suggested small claims court. That suggestion should not be ignored.[/QUOTE]

This is what a conditional credit is; When you dispute a charge from a merchant, a conditional credit may be issued to your account. A conditional credit is temporary and it applies until your inquiry is resolved. Depending on the outcome of the inquiry, the conditional credit will either become permanent or be removed.

I'm glad I have the email from the owner saying "I will give you a refund and pick it up" 

That's why I haven't called him. I wanted everything in writing. I have all the emails between us until he no longer decided to reply.[/QUOTE]



That will mean more in small claims court I believe than to your CC company. They are not going to get stuck absorbing the cost of your purchase


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## gibbs296 (Jun 22, 2014)

Might be time to search for a used 621 or 721 to get you through the winter. This fiasco could drag on for a while...


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## steeve725 (Jan 25, 2014)

[/QUOTE] That will mean more in small claims court I believe than to your CC company. They are not going to get stuck absorbing the cost of your purchase[/QUOTE]

I've done a chargeback before with my credit card. It wasn’t as near expensive as this, I purchased something off eBay and it arrived broken. I filed a claim with PayPal & PayPal ruled in that sellers favor.

I then filed a charge back / dispute with my credit card even though PayPal declined it. My credit card refunded my money

I’m a Christian, I believe in God, and God will take care of the situation for me.


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## steeve725 (Jan 25, 2014)

gibbs296 said:


> Might be time to search for a used 621 or 721 to get you through the winter. This fiasco could drag on for a while...


Yeah it may drag on for a little while, it may not.

We’ll see what happens.


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## foggysail (Feb 21, 2015)

Stevee— I do not know how this will ultimately turn out....I am on your side, not the dealers. Most people are honest, they try their best to do things correctly. The dealer probably thinks your damages are insignificant resulting in him ignoring you and your attempts to contact him. BUT, IF he committed himself to refunding you in writing, email or texting I still believe SCC will ultimately provide the fastest results. 

If you get a court judgement against him and he does NOT return your payment within a specified time, you can go back to court again and they can/will initiate an arrest warrant for the dealer. Been there, done that although my situation had nothing to do with a purchase. I suggest that you avoid putting too much hope in anything ‘conditional’. Just my thoughts


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## steeve725 (Jan 25, 2014)

foggysail said:


> Stevee— I do not know how this will ultimately turn out....I am on your side, not the dealers. Most people are honest, they try their best to do things correctly. The dealer probably thinks your damages are insignificant resulting in him ignoring you and your attempts to contact him. BUT, IF he committed himself to refunding you in writing, email or texting I still believe SCC will ultimately provide the fastest results.
> 
> If you get a court judgement against him and he does NOT return your payment within a specified time, you can go back to court again and they can/will initiate an arrest warrant for the dealer. Been there, done that although my situation had nothing to do with a purchase. I suggest that you avoid putting too much hope in anything ‘conditional’. Just my thoughts


I understand 

I’m going to give it some more time.

Thanks for the advice. 

Nothing is going in one ear and out the other


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## steeve725 (Jan 25, 2014)

*Dealer finally picked up damaged snow blower and refunded me!*



foggysail said:


> Stevee— I do not know how this will ultimately turn out....I am on your side, not the dealers. Most people are honest, they try their best to do things correctly. The dealer probably thinks your damages are insignificant resulting in him ignoring you and your attempts to contact him. BUT, IF he committed himself to refunding you in writing, email or texting I still believe SCC will ultimately provide the fastest results.
> 
> If you get a court judgement against him and he does NOT return your payment within a specified time, you can go back to court again and they can/will initiate an arrest warrant for the dealer. Been there, done that although my situation had nothing to do with a purchase. I suggest that you avoid putting too much hope in anything ‘conditional’. Just my thoughts


Well today it happened. The dealer finally came and picked up the damaged snowblower he delivered without the owners manual and overfilled with oil. Yes, he refunded me fully. 

A horrible experience from start to finish from buying from this dealer. 


I’m so glad to be done with this.

In my history with buying snow blowers, I've always had single stage snow blowers. I've only bought 2 snow blowers at 2 dealers. This one and one other. 50% satisfaction. I've bought a few snowblowers from Home Depot, never an issue. I've bought single stages that need very minimal assembly and have assembled them myself easily. On all the used snow blowers Ive purchased, I've always got off Craigslist. 



Now I need to find a place to buy.


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## foggysail (Feb 21, 2015)

You mentioned that single stages need very little minimal assembly.....OK. Now compare that to my experience ‘’assembling’’ my Ariens 28 Pro purchased on line with free delivery to my garage door, $200 less than from local dealers. It took longer for me to strip off all the Arien’s plastic wrappings applied for shipping protection than it did to connect the two levers between the control panel and the engine.

HEY!!!! Nice to learn that you received a refund for your disappointed purchase.


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## steeve725 (Jan 25, 2014)

foggysail said:


> You mentioned that single stages need very little minimal assembly.....OK. Now compare that to my experience ‘’assembling’’ my Ariens 28 Pro purchased on line with free delivery to my garage door, $200 less than from local dealers. It took longer for me to strip off all the Arien’s plastic wrappings applied for shipping protection than it did to connect the two levers between the control panel and the engine.
> 
> HEY!!!! Nice to learn that you received a refund for your disappointed purchase.


Yes assembling a two stage snowblower, is probably much bigger task than assembling a single stage snowblower. 

I’ve never tried to assemble a two stage snowblower. So I can see the reason for definitely wanting to buy one of those from a dealer.


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

His Ariens 28 *IS* a 2 stage - an excercise in triviality . . . About all you need to do it bolt on the handlebars and connect the linkages - the manuals show how trivial it is . . . It's not like the guys at a typical dealer are particularly gifted . . . You are paying more for the convienience of not doing it yourself, not any kind of genius . . . IMHO . . .


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## ChuckD6321 (Nov 20, 2016)

Wow. Just finished reading through your problem and the posts responding. I feel your pain and it sounds like you got some closure. Well played, sir.
I've been in a similar situation although it was over a US$3000 racing bicycle, and more about who wanted to sell one to me (and who apparently didn't).
But it's similar because I always want to patronize local businesses first. It makes sense to prioritize the local economy. Ideally you buy your [Big Ticket Item] from a local business you've come to trust. You may pay a little more but it establishes a relationship where hopefully you can confidently return for advice on it's operation or DIY repairs from a human, get follow-up service as needed and maybe make further purchases. Getting burned like this sucks, big time. In my case I turned to eBay after 3 bicycle dealers didn't seem to want to play. Little things, like letting me test ride it (I told them they can hold on to my credit card), or getting a refund if I wasn't satisfied ("no refunds, we'll work something out").


The other thing I think you should do is use the internet to warn others. After getting nowhere a couple years ago with Dixie Chopper after one of their approved shops did "work" that resulted in either my paying an additional $1500, or taking the mower back as yard art (if they would've delivered it to me). When I escalated it to a very unconcerned Dixie Chopper manager I let him know that 'the internet is making the world a smaller place every day, sir'. And now I have a brand new Exmark. 

3 sites where you can get some satisfaction that come to mind are Google (look up any business in Google Maps and you'll see where you can leave reviews), Angie's List and Yelp (yes, Yelp doesn't just do restaurants anymore). There are others but those are just what I've used.
Let 'em know! And glad to see it worked out (so far).


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## steeve725 (Jan 25, 2014)

ChuckD6321 said:


> Wow. Just finished reading through your problem and the posts responding. I feel your pain and it sounds like you got some closure. Well played, sir.
> I've been in a similar situation although it was over a US$3000 racing bicycle, and more about who wanted to sell one to me (and who apparently didn't).
> But it's similar because I always want to patronize local businesses first. It makes sense to prioritize the local economy. Ideally you buy your [Big Ticket Item] from a local business you've come to trust. You may pay a little more but it establishes a relationship where hopefully you can confidently return for advice on it's operation or DIY repairs from a human, get follow-up service as needed and maybe make further purchases. Getting burned like this sucks, big time. In my case I turned to eBay after 3 bicycle dealers didn't seem to want to play. Little things, like letting me test ride it (I told them they can hold on to my credit card), or getting a refund if I wasn't satisfied ("no refunds, we'll work something out").
> 
> ...


Yes, it's unfortunate that there are businesses / dealers like the one I just dealt with that are a bigger family businesses that don't seem to care about smaller customers like myself. When the owner picked up the Damaged Snowblower he delivered to me, you'd think he would apologize. He didn't.

Yes, I'm fully aware of Yelp, etc.


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## melson (Feb 9, 2015)

I bought the same model from HD. It's listed on their website but not carried locally, thus it came drop-shipped from Texas. It arrived having been treated roughly; the carton was torn and retapped and parts were loose inside. No owners manual, either. Upon further inspection it was obvious the package had been dropped on one corner. 

I complained to my local HD customer service who, at first, tried to minimize the issues but over the course of our conversation decided to make good by sending the owners manual and a complimentary spare paddle set.
Note: An extra heavy-duty paddle set is listed as included on the Toro website IF you purchase direct from Toro. This perk isn't listed on the Home Depot site. You'll also pay a $50 premium over the HD price at Toro (or a dealer). 

My takeaway from this experience is threefold: do your homework and decide up-front who is more likely to help with damage issues and how easily a damaged unit can be returned/replaced; there's way too much indifference and unaccountability with shippers, something that should be managed at the factory level; the Toro factory shipping carton is woefully insufficient for the mishandling it is likely to receive in transit.

All that being said, I will say this: I had previously owned a JD TRS21 single-stage, and, for 15 years I marveled at how much these little guys can do versus my heavy two-stage, and do it with much less effort. This year, I decided to replace the JD with what has the specs to be an even better performer. The new Toro 821 sure sounds powerful, starts so easily you don't need but one pull, and the Quick Shoot Control is slick. I'm anxious to try it out.


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## LawnToro (Dec 28, 2018)

steeve725 said:


> Today I got my new Toro QZE 821 delivered from a Toro dealer near me, it was actually delivered from the owner himself.
> 
> Upon arrival the gas tank has two gouges in it, and the handle where the pull cord attachment attaches there’s a large scratch as well.
> 
> ...



According to my Toro dealer, and our local Toro Representative, no new walk behind products come with manuals. This was new as of June of 2018.


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## Grunt (Nov 11, 2013)

LawnToro said:


> According to my Toro dealer, and our local Toro Representative, no new walk behind products come with manuals. This was new as of June of 2018.



This is pretty stupid on Toro's decision to save a few bucks (cents) on printing costs. They should at least have a quick start guide showing setup and SAFETY considerations.
Why should the buyer have to go to their web site and find the information?
It is next to impossible to reach an actual person on the phone for information from any company now. Press one for this, press 2 for that. :icon_cussing_black:


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## gibbs296 (Jun 22, 2014)

Love their single stages. Had a 2 year old Toro 2 stage for about 2 months and flipped it. Wasn't very impressed by metal thickness, was already pretty bent up. I can see the direction Toro is going and it ain't good.


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

Grunt said:


> This is pretty stupid on Toro's decision to save a few bucks (cents) on printing costs. They should at least have a quick start guide showing setup and SAFETY considerations.
> Why should the buyer have to go to their web site and find the information?
> It is next to impossible to reach an actual person on the phone for information from any company now. Press one for this, press 2 for that. :icon_cussing_black:


 Millenials don't have the attention span or skills to read them, so they likely got tired of just having folks bin the manual, and then call with stupid questions. Still get the stupid questions, but at lower $$$ . . .


Utterly pathetic, I know . . .


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## Zavie (Sep 23, 2014)

LawnToro said:


> According to my Toro dealer, and our local Toro Representative, no new walk behind products come with manuals. This was new as of June of 2018.


I'm hanging on to my 2017 Toro Power Clear 721R! It's a collectible. The last year Toro, with an actual printed owners manual.


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## mobiledynamics (Nov 21, 2014)

What I wanna know at the end of the day is how a 821 compares to a Honda 621. While I `like' my HS621 (restored with all oe parts....), for the type of snow I get when I use it, I hate that it just clogs up.

I've seen a neighbor with a toro with a SS, and I dunno if any modern *power curver* etc is actually making it a more effective SS


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## Zavie (Sep 23, 2014)

mobiledynamics said:


> What I wanna know at the end of the day is how a 821 compares to a Honda 621. While I `like' my HS621 (restored with all oe parts....), for the type of snow I get when I use it, I hate that it just clogs up.
> 
> I've seen a neighbor with a toro with a SS, and I dunno if any modern *power curver* etc is actually making it a more effective SS


How does that Toro SS preform?


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## LawnToro (Dec 28, 2018)

tadawson said:


> Millenials don't have the attention span or skills to read them, so they likely got tired of just having folks bin the manual, and then call with stupid questions. Still get the stupid questions, but at lower $$$ . . .
> 
> 
> Utterly pathetic, I know . . .



I can proudly say that as a millenial (18 years old), I thoroughly read all owners manuals before I operate anything. Period. Especially equipment.


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

LawnToro said:


> I can proudly say that as a millenial (18 years old), I thoroughly read all owners manuals before I operate anything. Period. Especially equipment.


Congratulations on being a somewhat are exception!`


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## foggysail (Feb 21, 2015)

About dealers............of anything. I will share my experience when I searched for a new Ariens 28 Pro during mid MARCH 17. The going price for the machine was $2195 throughout the winter. I approached 2 dealers in my area for price quotes using cash....no checks, no CC's. Neither of the dealers would budge one dollar even though the snow season was for essentially over. And of course there were hidden costs such as delivery and sales tax. If either of those guys had lowered the price by a hundred bucks I certainly would have patronized them. They were arrogant! Each thought because I wanted an Ariens 28 Pro and they were the dealers, each thought they had me by my gonads. They did not! 

So I let my fingers do the walking and found what was supposed to be a ''floor sample'' for $1900, guaranteed to never have had fuel in the tank, a new machine! I ordered the beast which arrived in about a week or so delivered to my garage door. Some floor sample! I know of nobody who displays a floor sample still wrapped securely in the factory's original wrapping.

I could care less today about doing business with so called dealers..........just my thoughts.


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## steeve725 (Jan 25, 2014)

GOT ANOTHER TORO QZE821!

After what was a horrible dealer experience on this last 821 I went the dealer route again and purchased another QZE 821 and got it delivered IN THE BOX from another dealer. 

All he did was went and picked it up from the local distributor and bring it to my house.

He helped me take it out of the box and I assembled it myself. 

These toro single stage snow blowers are a breeze to put together.

3 screws for the chute assembly, 1 nut for the handle that holds the pull cord bracket, put the handle in its position and turn the plastic knobs that are attached to metal brackets that secure the handle in place.

The hardest part is filling the oil, only because it’s time consuming. I have a small funnel I simply put a piece of clear tubing in the end to make filling the oil that much easier.

I then filled it with fresh ethanol free fuel with a little amsoil quickshot mixed in. I run only ethanol free fuel with amsoil quickshot in both my lawnmower and snow blower. Most people don’t put in fuel stabilizer, or any fuel additives in their ethanol free fuel. I’ve always put Amsoil quick shot in any fuel that I’ve used for power equipment whether it have ethanol or no ethanol in it. In all my years with power equipment whether it be lawnmowers, weedeaters, snowblowers, etc, I’ve never had a fuel related issue.

This new 252cc engine on this QZE821 is much different than my previous QZE 721 that had the 212cc engine. I sold the 721 to buy this one. The 821 no longer has a real key that you turn, you simply have a plastic key looking piece that you pull out to stop the engine, where as before on the 721 you had a key that you turned to turn off the engine on the 721. The choke lever is just a simple sliding lever where as before on the 721 you had a big plastic piece that you pulled out and you pushed back in to activate the choke.

We’ll see how this new 821 performs compared to the 721. I had the 721 for 3 years and never had an issue with it in any storm. 

The main reason I went to the 821 is the engine. I like the idea of the engine being exposed to be able to get to the spark plug for easier maintenance, the fuel tank will be easy to drain at the end of the season compared to the 721 fuel tank, plus the bigger engine. (I normally run all my power equipment engines dry of fuel, but sometimes I have too much fuel left in the tank so I simply drain it back into my fuel can) 

If anyone’s interested, I attached a few pictures of the plastic hose that I attached to my funnel to make filling the oil so much easier on these engines.

Now I’m ready for snow.


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## steeve725 (Jan 25, 2014)

Grunt said:


> This is pretty stupid on Toro's decision to save a few bucks (cents) on printing costs. They should at least have a quick start guide showing setup and SAFETY considerations.
> Why should the buyer have to go to their web site and find the information?
> It is next to impossible to reach an actual person on the phone for information from any company now. Press one for this, press 2 for that. :icon_cussing_black:


 No, my 2nd new Toro qze 821 didn't come with a manual. It came with a quick start guide that shows how to fill the oil, turn it on, etc. It's only a few pages.

Toro probably figures that they save money on paper by not including manuals. 

Also, if they can get you to there website they figure they may have a chance of selling you something else. 

Its a win - win situation for Toro. 

Save money on paper and maybe get you to buy something else when you go to there website, even after you've spent hundreds or even thousands on a new snow blower. 

As for talking with someone. The last time I called Toro to speak to them about the way the 1st dealer was by bringing me a damaged snow blower, after pressing a few buttons on the automated menu, I was transferred to a person and they answered almost immediately. I do however understand what you mean by not talking with people with these automated menus. Those menus suck.


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## steeve725 (Jan 25, 2014)

mobiledynamics said:


> What I wanna know at the end of the day is how a 821 compares to a Honda 621. While I `like' my HS621 (restored with all oe parts....), for the type of snow I get when I use it, I hate that it just clogs up.
> 
> I've seen a neighbor with a toro with a SS, and I dunno if any modern *power curver* etc is actually making it a more effective SS


I had a Honda hs621. I got rid of it and bought a Toro QZR 621. 

I didn’t like the Honda for a couple reasons. It would occasionally clog, but the vibration from the handle was unbelievable. After I was done blowing snow my hands would be tingling.

I bought the Toro QZR 621 and never looked at a Honda again. 

The Toro in my opinion out performed the Honda

Since the Honda I’ve had my Toro QZR621, a Toro QZE 721 and now my new Toro QZE 821

The Toro has a better scraper. Toro has a pivoting scraper compared to a fixed scraper on the Honda. Toro has a bigger engine. Toro has better controls for the chute.


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## melson (Feb 9, 2015)

FYI: The 821's engine is produced for Toro by Chinese engine manufacturer Loncin. This (noisy) ~7 hp brute significantly trumps the 5 hp two cycle that powered my previous John Deere through 16 years of snow storms. That JD, by the way, was literally unstoppable; there were times it didn't throw snow very far, but it always threw even the deepest. 
Now, I'm eager to see how this Toro 821 compares. Should I be careful what I wish for? <grin>


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## steeve725 (Jan 25, 2014)

melson said:


> FYI: The 821's engine is produced for Toro by Chinese engine manufacturer Loncin. This (noisy) ~7 hp brute significantly trumps the 5 hp two cycle that powered my previous John Deere through 16 years of snow storms. That JD, by the way, was literally unstoppable; there were times it didn't throw snow very far, but it always threw even the deepest.
> Now, I'm eager to see how this Toro 821 compares. Should I be careful what I wish for? <grin>


Yes I’m aware the engines are made by Loncin, they have been for a little while now.

Some people claim there the same engine as the Predator that harbor freight has. I’m not 100% certain of that. it’s just that I’ve read that a lot.

My QZE 721 had the loncin engine on it. It always started 1st pull, idled good and had great power!

As for the noise of the 821, I started mine and it doesn’t sound much noisier than my 721 I sold, however it’s hard to tell unless they were next to each other.


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

Every product at HF I have seen in the Predator line has been directly traceable to a repainted, rebranded Loncin product . . . check the recent thread on generators for more details . . .

Doesn't make them good or bad (HF already pretty much has bad covered . . . ) but it is what it is . . .


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## AnOldGearhead (Nov 18, 2017)

steeve725 said:


> Here are the ones on the gas tank. One is almost an1” long, and the other it’s close to 1/2” long



Thanks for the pics - you'll probably never put a scratch there yourself for as long as you own the new replacement snowblower.


I did look at the quick start guide a few days ago (before you posted that you got the replacement machine) and after seeing how simple it is to assemble the snowblower, to put the correct amount of oil in it, and can imaging how easy it would be to move without damaging it, probably the only way the first dealer could have been more incompetent would have been to not put any oil in it (or maybe to have put gasoline in the crankcase instead of oil).


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## Shovel (Mar 26, 2019)

steeve725 said:


> GOT ANOTHER TORO QZE821!
> 
> After what was a horrible dealer experience on this last 821 I went the dealer route again and purchased another QZE 821 and got it delivered IN THE BOX from another dealer.
> 
> ...


Filling with oil does appear to be a pain.
Explains why the previous one was overfilled..they raised one side.. put in what they thought it held...screwed the piece back in then put the machine back down.
On yours I would use an empty oil container ... put a mark on it for however many ounces the machine holds ..so much easier for the future.
I lucked out.. I have a dipstick and side fill both...so in theory I can fill from the dipstick with the side fill removed and stop as soon as I see oil ready to come out the side time to stop.... But my dipstick will still not show full even if the side shows it's maxed...I am gonna say close to four more ounce before the stick says full




Sent from my LM-Q710.FG using Tapatalk


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## steeve725 (Jan 25, 2014)

Shovel said:


> Filling with oil does appear to be a pain.
> Explains why the previous one was overfilled..they raised one side.. put in what they thought it held...screwed the piece back in then put the machine back down.
> On yours I would use an empty oil container ... put a mark on it for however many ounces the machine holds ..so much easier for the future.
> I lucked out.. I have a dipstick and side fill both...so in theory I can fill from the dipstick with the side fill removed and stop as soon as I see oil ready to come out the side time to stop.... But my dipstick will still not show full even if the side shows it's maxed...I am gonna say close to four more ounce before the stick says full
> Sent from my LM-Q710.FG using Tapatalk



Yes this 821 has a plastic dipstick with marks on it. I just filled it like the 721 I had, till the oil was almost to the top of the hole, and it was well within the marks. The 721 was to fill the oil according to the manual "until the point of overflow" were it was almost coming out the hole. 

Anyway about marking the container for future use, a great idea, Thanks.

After I drain the oil at the end of the season or 2 hours for the 1st time, I'll then switch it to Amsoil 5w30 as I did my Honda hrx217hya mower and all my previous Toro snow blowers I've had. Then I'll probably only need to change the oil every few seasons as I do with my mower since its a full synthetic. I'll check were it is on the Toro oil container and mark a new Amsoil container to same.


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## CeeKay1 (Dec 2, 2019)

good idea to have this one returned. would likely have been nothing but troubles and you'd be buying another one before it's time was up.


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## 88-tek (Nov 5, 2017)

Sorry to hear of your troubles. 

There's good dealers and bad dealers, sadly this sounds of the latter. 

I'd get a refund, tell them to go F*** themselves, and search for a dealer who actually gives a flyin' flip.:smile2:


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## toms (Nov 17, 2017)

I think if it was me i would be staying away from Toro......They both had assembly issues from the factory not the dealer.


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