# New acquisition, 1965 10M60



## WestminsterFJR (Dec 30, 2013)

Just picked it up this evening! The machine is in very good shape, but the engine has seized. The seller recalls his father purchasing it from a widowed neighbor around 1970. Price was right, as he 'just wanted it out of the garage'. Pics to follow soon.


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## motorhead64 (Dec 15, 2013)

The engine may just be "stuck." The rings fuse to the cylinder walls when sitting for a long time. A few ounces of mystery oil, or other penetrant, down the plug hole, a breaker bar and socket on the flywheel nut after a few days waiting. You could be back in business. MH


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## Ray 1962 10ML60 (Oct 14, 2011)

Ken, your killing me here. I can't find a old one like yours within 2 hour ride and your picking up one a week! Nice find, can't wait to see pix.


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## WestminsterFJR (Dec 30, 2013)

Here she is: 











Here are more pics.


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## WestminsterFJR (Dec 30, 2013)

motorhead64 said:


> The engine may just be "stuck." The rings fuse to the cylinder walls when sitting for a long time. A few ounces of mystery oil, or other penetrant, down the plug hole, a breaker bar and socket on the flywheel nut after a few days waiting. You could be back in business. MH


Good suggestion on freeing the piston. I will pick up some Mystery Oil tomorrow. I have sprayed WD-40 in there since that's all I have on hand currently. The seller said it sat for 4 years. He actually got it started and was using it. When he started it up the second time, heard some 'knocking' so he turned it off. When I initially pulled on the recoil, it was moving, but not too smoothly, and I could hear some knocking sound. I pulled it slowly a few more times and that's when it seized up.


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## WestminsterFJR (Dec 30, 2013)

Ray 1962 10ML60 said:


> Ken, your killing me here. I can't find a old one like yours within 2 hour ride and your picking up one a week! Nice find, can't wait to see pix.


Ray, thanks for the compliments! I am pretty pleased with the acquisition. My plan is to open up the crankcase and explore a bit since I have never done it before. If all fails, I would mount the 212 Predator I purchased a few weeks ago.But not until I've explored my options on bringing this one back to life.


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## WestminsterFJR (Dec 30, 2013)

When I was rolling it around today, I've noticed it has a differential. However, it does not have the differential lock on the wheel. Does that imply that the slip differential is standard on the 10M6, and the 10M6D adds the option of locking the differential? 

I thought it was the other way around.... 10M6 is locked always just like my 10ML55's, and 10M6D has the slip differential.


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## Ray 1962 10ML60 (Oct 14, 2011)

WestminsterFJR said:


> When I was rolling it around today, I've noticed it has a differential. However, it does not have the differential lock on the wheel. Does that imply that the slip differential is standard on the 10M6, and the 10M6D adds the option of locking the differential?
> 
> I thought it was the other way around.... 10M6 is locked always just like my 10ML55's, and 10M6D has the slip differential.


Look behind the wheels, you may have the ratchet wheel hubs on there and not a differential. They were an option you could add on that allowed the wheels to be unlocked as if there was a differential on there. They made it possible to use the tractor with the other trac team attachments. (Mower, chipper, lawn vac)


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## motorhead64 (Dec 15, 2013)

Nice clean machine, Ken. If you were able to pull her over, the rings are not fused to the cylinder. The knocking could be the connecting rod...either loose rod cap, cracked or broken rod, or simply a lack of lubrication down there. Also, a valve guide may have some rust buildup that is causing a valve to stick and you may be hearing the lifter. A broken rod will often allow you to pull it only so far, and then it will jam up. If you pull your plug, and shine a penlight in the plug hole, you can watch to see if your valves and piston are all operational, and go from there. MH


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## db130 (Feb 16, 2013)

Congrats, I have a mid to late 60s vintage 10M6D as well and it doesn't have the locking diff either(but it does have a diff).

With the way the chute crank is configured on the mid 60s 10M6D, you should be able to slap the Predator onto it w/out having the chute crank interfering.


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## WestminsterFJR (Dec 30, 2013)

db130 said:


> Congrats, I have a mid to late 60s vintage 10M6D as well and it doesn't have the locking diff either(but it does have a diff).
> 
> With the way the chute crank is configured on the mid 60s 10M6D, you should be able to slap the Predator onto it w/out having the chute crank interfering.


That's good to know, regarding the differential. Since I have never ran this machine, i was starting to think there is an issue with the drive train. Good point about the crank bracket. The 10000 series style should clear the oil filler cap on the Predator. I will, however, need longer engine studs since the base of the Tec is a lot thinner than the Predator.


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## WestminsterFJR (Dec 30, 2013)

Here's an update. I pulled the head cover off, and look at what I found on the piston! 










The head of the screw was melted onto the piston, and the threaded portion was just floating around. I smoothed out the gouges and removed the carbon.










There was damage on the head cover as well










The valves are seating tightly @ TDC and there is no detectable wear ridge on the cylinder walls. After assembling, the engine turns over smoothly, with no odd noises. I measured the compression to be 70 psi which is the same as my 10ML55 #1 (Note: 10ML55 #2 measured at 90 psi).

Here's my next problem. The engine would not start, not even with starting fluid. Compression is good, but the spark seems weak and inconsistent. I have never worked on points / condensers before. Should I start by cleaning and gapping the points? Or should I anticipate on replacing the condenser?

Another Update:

Checked the gap to be 0.015, so I adjusted it to 0.020 as stamped on the points assembly cover. Now there is no spark at all. I'm leaning towards a bad condenser. I have removed it and will get a new one tomorrow.


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## db9938 (Nov 17, 2013)

I'm not certain that I would trust that piston, or head. Especially the piston, if it cracked or shattered, it may be catastrophic to the entire engine. 

Insofar as the points, it may need a new condenser. They can get weak over time.


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## db130 (Feb 16, 2013)

I agree, I would not reuse that piston(or head).


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## WestminsterFJR (Dec 30, 2013)

Thanks for the 'heads up', No pun intended, LOL.

I'm not too concerned about the reliability or longevity of the motor since it is more of a learning experiment for me, and financially, the motor was virtually free. However, I am concerned about operator safety in the event that the piston or head does fail. 

I would like to at least get it running first (dinged piston and all) before deciding on investing additional time into this motor. I'm hoping I am just one condenser away from that milestone.


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## WestminsterFJR (Dec 30, 2013)

The new condenser did the trick! Engine is running, but in need of some carb TLC. It runs, but requires partial choke to stay going. Also replaced the fuel line since the shroud was off.

As I was purchasing the parts at the local small engine repair shop, the old timer behind the counter asked me what machine I was working on so I started telling him about my 3 Ariens. I was amazed by the amount of detail he was able to recall. For example, the final year of the updraft carb that was used on my 1961. For him to remember it from over 50 years ago was pretty impressive.


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## WestminsterFJR (Dec 30, 2013)

Ray 1962 10ML60 said:


> Look behind the wheels, you may have the ratchet wheel hubs on there and not a differential. They were an option you could add on that allowed the wheels to be unlocked as if there was a differential on there. They made it possible to use the tractor with the other trac team attachments. (Mower, chipper, lawn vac)


Ray, I took a quick look at the hubs today and didn't noticed any ratcheting mechanism. I took the chains off because it was bouncing all over the place as I wheeled it in and out of my garage, LOL. 

One thing I did noticed is there's quite a bit of play in the left axle. I've never explored a drive-train before, so it should be a good learning experience.


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## motorhead64 (Dec 15, 2013)

Looks like a couple of dings to me. I think they will fill in with carbon over time and pretty much become irrelevant. She must have sucked a carb butterfly screw down the intake valve. Crunch crunch. MH


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## db9938 (Nov 17, 2013)

WestminsterFJR said:


> The new condenser did the trick! Engine is running, but in need of some carb TLC. It runs, but requires partial choke to stay going. Also replaced the fuel line since the shroud was off.
> 
> As I was purchasing the parts at the local small engine repair shop, the old timer behind the counter asked me what machine I was working on so I started telling him about my 3 Ariens. I was amazed by the amount of detail he was able to recall. For example, the final year of the updraft carb that was used on my 1961. For him to remember it from over 50 years ago was pretty impressive.


It's those guys I have the most confidence buying my parts from. Its kinda of like walking into a barber shop, and getting a haircut, without him asking what you want, he just knows.


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## Ray 1962 10ML60 (Oct 14, 2011)

WestminsterFJR said:


> The new condenser did the trick! Engine is running, but in need of some carb TLC. It runs, but requires partial choke to stay going. Also replaced the fuel line since the shroud was off.
> 
> As I was purchasing the parts at the local small engine repair shop, the old timer behind the counter asked me what machine I was working on so I started telling him about my 3 Ariens. I was amazed by the amount of detail he was able to recall. For example, the final year of the updraft carb that was used on my 1961. For him to remember it from over 50 years ago was pretty impressive.


Funny you say that. When I was telling my local guy about mine, he recalled these machines as well. His memory was that it was very dangerous because he ran his right through his screen door because he didn't stop it in time!! Lol. He told me to either sell it for scrap or at the very least make sure all the neighborhood kids and pets were safely indoors when I was blowing snow.


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## sscotsman (Dec 8, 2010)

Ray 1962 10ML60 said:


> Funny you say that. When I was telling my local guy about mine, he recalled these machines as well. His memory was that it was very dangerous because he ran his right through his screen door because he didn't stop it in time!! Lol. He told me to either sell it for scrap or at the very least make sure all the neighborhood kids and pets were safely indoors when I was blowing snow.


meh..that guys opinion is, IMO, ridiculous..
its not the snowblowers fault it went through the door, it's his! 
and everyone should "make sure all the neighborhood kids and pets are safely indoors when blowing snow." with ANY snowblower..(or lawnmower)..the age and safety features of the particular machine are irrelevant..any machine is only as safe as its operator. im sure there are some people who have lost fingers from their brand new 2014 snowblowers this winter, even with all the latest safety features..

Scot


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## WestminsterFJR (Dec 30, 2013)

I took the bowl, main jet, and needle off the carb (did not remove the carb) and cleared out the 2 holes on the main jet. I then reassembled, and the thing is now running horribly. It is sputtering and backfiring. It starts easier, but cannot go beyond idle. Playing with the main jet does not make too much difference, but I have it around 2 turns now. Idle is set around 1.5 turns out as it was before. Float bowl height is 13/64", no adjustments were required.

It was running pretty well before I cleaned the carb. Not sure what happened. Thoughts or suggestions?


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## motorhead64 (Dec 15, 2013)

Hi Ken,
You must have loosened up some crud and now it's blocking a passage. It should start at one turn out for idle and one and a half for high speed needle. I would go back to those settings and use choke as much as needed until she is warmed up enough to dither with the jets. Also, whenever I rebuild a carb, I use a liberal dose of sea foam in the first gas afterwards. It will dissolve those little buggers that you missed in many cases. I'm talking 1-2 ounces to a gallon. MH


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## WestminsterFJR (Dec 30, 2013)

MH, does sputtering and backfiring imply an overly rich mixture?


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## motorhead64 (Dec 15, 2013)

It certainly could be. The rich mixture is not burned up adequately on the combustion stroke and begins to pre-ignite, blowing back out the exhaust valve, and sometimes the intake valve. check your plug for black unburned fuel carbonizing on the electrode. It will have to run a bit for this to become evident if you are running a new plug. MH


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## WestminsterFJR (Dec 30, 2013)

Yes, my plug is fouling. I have the carb off the motor now. Not sure how cleaning the main jet and bowl would had caused this. Unless I'm missing a washer or o-ring?

I cleared all the passages and still the same results. Are suppose to be a gasket between the emulsion tube and main jet?


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## motorhead64 (Dec 15, 2013)

I haven't been able to locate any breakdown for these carbs, so the washer stack is still a mystery to me. When I removed my high speed jets, I could see a black rubber o ring (somewhat flattened) underneath. On new stuff there is also a small brass washer underneath that. I have those on hand, but I didn't want to dig the old ones out not knowing if the new ones would replace them. I just cleaned the needle, blew carb cleaner in the seat, and buttoned it back up. In your case, you may also have a float needle that isn't completely sealing. Just a thought. MH


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## WestminsterFJR (Dec 30, 2013)

A worn needle or missing gasket is what I'm thinking. I'm pretty careful when taking these things apart, but its possible that I dropped something in the process.

The black rubber o ring that you mentioned ... does it go in between the emulsion tube and main jet?? Or between the main jet and adjustment needle? I have the stack between the main jet and adjustment needle, but there is nothing between the emulsion tube and main jet.

I thought the float needle (along with the float) only regulates how much fuel is in the bowl, and should not affect the fuel/air mixture. If fuel is not over flowing or leaking, then the float and needle is fine. Is my assumption correct?


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## motorhead64 (Dec 15, 2013)

The washer stack I was talking about is the needle for the high speed jet. I forgot you are working on the newest acquisition, not your 55's. It has the "modern" carb with the bowl underneath? Focusing on what you did, you only removed the bowl and nut, and cleaned the jet out, right? If the jet's needle were worn, you would have noticed a ridge just south of the tip. You didn't mention touching the emulsion tube. As far as the float needle goes, if they aren't sealing properly, the excess fuel from the overfilled bowl does not always show as a visible leak...it can dump into the carb and sometime even fills up your crankcase with fuel. Check the dipstick...smell it, does it smell like gas, and does it appear that its level has changed? The only other thing I can think of is your settings...1 1/2 for idle, 2 for high jet. Those are both on the rich side. MH


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## WestminsterFJR (Dec 30, 2013)

Yes, this is the 1965 with the conventional float bowl. Good point on a possible overflow. I did remove and reinstalled the float needle. No worn ridge can be seen on the main jet needle. I will check the oil level and smell it for gas. It was right at the full mark before.

It's a good thing they redesigned the carb mounting system on the 10000 series compared to the first series with the 'alien' carb. Only 1 link to the governor arm, kill switch wire, throttle cable, and 2 screws. That's it, and the entire assemble comes off.


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## WestminsterFJR (Dec 30, 2013)

I checked the oil. The level is the same as before. Does smell a bit like gas, though.


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## motorhead64 (Dec 15, 2013)

A slight odor of gasoline is not unusual. After 2 cleanings, your carburetor should be a clean as a whistle. If you are running rich enough to blacken your plug, I would run each needle in half a turn and see if you can start her. You could also try pinching off your fuel line and see if there is an improvement. This would eliminate the needle/seat sealing theory. MH


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## WestminsterFJR (Dec 30, 2013)

Here’s an update… 

Last night, I started by testing the existing points/condenser with the spark tester @ the recommended gap and saw little to no spark. The spark was very weak and inconsistent even when I reduced the gap to ½.

First, I attempted to measure the gap between the magnet and coil. The recommendation is the thickness of a business card. But since the coil is under the flywheel, there was no easy way to measure this. I stuck a few layers of masking tape onto the magnet and rotated the flywheel slowly across the coil. I inspected the tape for any contact or rubbing. There was, so I accepted that as ‘good enough’.

I then replaced the points and condenser with an electronic module. After reinstalling the flywheel, I re-tested for spark and saw nothing! I re-read the instructions and noted it says to reverse the polarity if there is no spark. So that’s what I did, and this time, there was strong consistent spark produced. As much as I wanted to wheel her outside and try starting her at this moment, I figured I shouldn’t since it was 1:30 AM. J

This morning, I reset my carb settings to 1.5 turns, added some fresh gas, and started her up. She’s now running nicely. Just in time to clear my driveway of over a foot of snow!


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## scipper77 (Dec 4, 2013)

Very nice job. I bet it just feels so good to know you have such good spark.

I hate how they use the head bolts to hold the gas tank bracket on.

This is a good example of why in the tool thread I said that the spark gap tester may need to be on the need list. Some feeler gauges would have been nice there.


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## WestminsterFJR (Dec 30, 2013)

Thanks, scipper77. I agree, a spark gap tester is a very useful tool. Lesson learned ... seeing a spark in open air does not mean it is strong enough to ignite under pressure. That was the case here.


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## scipper77 (Dec 4, 2013)

Well to be fair most of my small engine work is done on old outboard motors. Points systems and a marine environment do not play well. I may value the spark tester more than others.


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## WestminsterFJR (Dec 30, 2013)

Here's a video of her starting up. We've had over a foot of snow (3 storms combined) this week, and she performed flawlessly.


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## Ray 1962 10ML60 (Oct 14, 2011)

Ken, she looks great, nice job. I was thinking of putting on one of those electronic ignitions. How complex is the procedure?


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## WestminsterFJR (Dec 30, 2013)

Ray 1962 10ML60 said:


> Ken, she looks great, nice job. I was thinking of putting on one of those electronic ignitions. How complex is the procedure?


Thanks, Ray. The module is very easy to connect. It only has 2 wires. 

1. Remove condenser

2. connect module wire #1 to ground

3. move the existing 2 wires that used to connect to the points over to module wire #2.

a. coil's primary wire 
b. kill switch wire

4. route wires to ensure they would not be rubbed by the flywheel. 

5 attach module to a secure location away from flywheel.


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