# Toro engine question



## Bryan78 (Jan 10, 2015)

I had heard that the toro 265cc engine on the 928 power max hd has a lot more torque than the 252cc engine on the power max hd (both loncin) with the basis for this being that the 265 has an oil capacity of 30-32 oz whereas the 252 has an oil capacity of 18-20 oz. Appreciate any insight on this. Thanks


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## PixMan (Feb 14, 2015)

I would think oil capacity itself wouldn't make any difference in torque. However, the fact that the crankcase has more space in it might be an indicator of larger crank flywheels and/or a longer stroke, which _would_ give a motor more torque.


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## Bryan78 (Jan 10, 2015)

That makes sense, PixMan.

I did a little research (sad I know) to see how the oil capacity varies based on all the current Toro 2 stage offerings. Interestingly, the 252 cc HD version has less capacity than the 252cc non-HD (seems odd). I just can't imagine that between the 252 cc and 265 cc there would be that much of a difference in torque/power. Also considering the 252 is a 26 inch and the 265 is a 28, would think that would also seem to offset the power difference? The 928 has about a 20 pound weight advantage on the 826.

Non-HD
724 OE 37779 212 CC 17 OZ
826 OE 37780 252CC 24 OZ
826 OXE 37781 252CC 24 OZ
HD
826 OXE 38805 252CC 18-20 OZ
928 OXHE 38801 265CC 30-32 OZ
1028 OXHE 38802 302 CC 30-32 OZ
1128 OXHE 38803 342CC (Briggs) 26-28 OZ


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## tdipaul (Jul 11, 2015)

Bryan78 said:


> I had heard that the toro 265cc engine on the 928 power max hd has a lot more torque than the 252cc engine on the power max hd (both loncin) with the basis for this being that the 265 has an oil capacity of 30-32 oz whereas the 252 has an oil capacity of 18-20 oz. Appreciate any insight on this. Thanks


Here is the link to Loncin: http://www.loncinindustries.com/en/engine/ProductDetail.aspx?catid=8-15-16-30-52-2146779951#proFlag

But they don't list the 252, only the 265 and 212 as far as I can see.


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## Bryan78 (Jan 10, 2015)

Thank you, sir. Thinking that maybe it's because the 252 is a new engine (to toro at least as far as I know).


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## GustoGuy (Nov 19, 2012)

Loncin makes all the Toro 2 stage blower engine as well as the 212cc Harbor Freight Predator. I own 3 of them and they are like a Chinese built Honda in many ways. 1-2 pulls to start every time and the oldest engine I have is 3 years old.


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## Bryan78 (Jan 10, 2015)

Appreciate the info, I've heard they are supposed to be good.


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## Cardo111 (Feb 16, 2015)

Bryan78 said:


> I had heard that the toro 265cc engine on the 928 power max hd has a lot more torque than the 252cc engine on the power max hd (both loncin) with the basis for this being that the 265 has an oil capacity of 30-32 oz whereas the 252 has an oil capacity of 18-20 oz. Appreciate any insight on this. Thanks


Bryan I researched this machine as well, this engine is rated at 15.9 ft lbs. of torque. I attached specs from Toro, these engines are supposed to be good as Loncin apparently is well known for motorcycle engines in China. In person to me the engine looked a bit plasticky, and I am just not a fan of engines that have oil drain tubes right above the tire on the side of the motor to complicate routine maintenance.

Regarding the oil capacity PixMan explained it well. You will notice this on many small engines for example on Ariens AX/LCT engines their 254cc engine takes about 20 oz. of oil then when you move up to their 369cc engine it jumps to 38oz. of oil. I believe their 306cc motor uses 32oz.
Engine weight also increases sometimes significantly.

https://m.toro.com/en/homeowner/snow-blowers/power-max-hd-926-oxe-38664


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## Bryan78 (Jan 10, 2015)

Thanks for that. This is the 926 and it appears that unfortunately the 926 with the 265cc is no longer being produced. The 252cc 826 (38805) is the only 26 hd version. The main reason behind my initial question was trying to determine how the power on the 252cc would compare to the 265cc. I really don't want to step up to the 928 to get the 265 as I don't need a 28. I am getting to the point where I have to either go with the 826 or just say screw it and get the ariens 24 Sho. Both dealers are getting their stock in the next week and I need to quit being indecisive. I keep going back and forth. Any thoughts, Cardo? Thanks


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## Cardo111 (Feb 16, 2015)

I hear you, I was told by Toro that the 926 was no longer being made as well for whatever reason on this model Toro's website displayed the torque specs of the 265cc engine that is why I attached it. I wanted that model because it was smaller and would offer more power per inch, not sure why they stopped making it maybe it was competing against there 826 and most people were buying the 928.

The Ariens Platinum 24 SHO is a really nice machine and is very powerful especially now with the 369cc engine. My only issue with it and I have mentioned this on some of my posts is the tire track width at 25" is wider than the 24" auger width. Potentially this can cause a trail of snow created by the tire sides hitting the snow where the augers are not wide enough to clear ( a .5" on each side). However out of all the reviews out there on the Platinum 24 SHO only few complain about this and they are overall very positive.

I am the same way and tend to overthink these things and fear making the wrong decision. It is a large purchase that you will live with for years so you want to make the best choice that you can. I initially bought the Ariens Deluxe 28 with the 254cc motor rated at 12.5 ft. Lbs. of torque after using an MTD 640F an 8hp 26" machine that served me well for nearly 20 years. I was happy with the build quality and performance on the Ariens Deluxe 28 under some conditions (non plow pile and powder) but ended up selling it a year later because it just didn't have enough power for the plow pile and would bog down. I don't think the 254cc LCT motor has adequate power for the 28" auger.

Regarding the Toro 826 and the Ariens Platinum 24 SHO these are both good machines. There are good promos out there on both however the Ariens is offering a 5 year extended warranty ( I believe Toro is offering 4 years) and 18 month interest free financing if paid in full w/in 18 months. I think Toro is also offering an 18 month billing promo with monthly payments. On the Ariens if you finance $1500.+ through Sheffield, for a $50. loan fee you can pay it off over 4 years with virtually no interest I think it equates to about .33% APR.

I wish you the best of luck with whichever unit you choose.


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## Bryan78 (Jan 10, 2015)

Yeah it's a tough one. Appreciate the information. Have you decided what you're going to get?


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## Cardo111 (Feb 16, 2015)

I think the Ariens Platinum 24 SHO will best suit my needs.


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## BoulerCOSnow (Sep 30, 2015)

Any opinions on the Toro Power Max HD 928? I'm worried that the engine will be under powered for 28"


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## Bryan78 (Jan 10, 2015)

Although it doesn't have the power of the 1028 with the 302, everything I've read about it seems to indicate that the 265 has a good amount of power.


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## BoulerCOSnow (Sep 30, 2015)

I've done a ton of research and narrowed my choices down to an Ariens 28" SHO or a Toro HD 826/928. I can get the Ariens for $1080 or the HD 928 for $1350. The HD 826 is $1299 so upping to the HD 928 seems like an easy choice. I like the quick chute controls and power steering on the Toros and am leaning that way. I have read a ton on how great the HD 1028 is, but not much has been said about the HD 928 other than it seems to be adequate. It appears, the Toro's anti-clogging system makes up for the lesser HP. 

I might be opening up a can of worm's, but does anyone have suggestions? I live just outside of Boulder, CO and we generally get 90" of snow each year, but hit around 125" last year.


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## cbnsoul (Nov 13, 2012)

Don't know if I can help but I am in exactly the same boat as you. I really want the 1028 with it's larger engine to bucket ratio but it's $500 more than the 826 and I don't really care about the extra 2" width. I like the hand warmers on the 928 and the slightly larger engine but the cc to bucket ratio is actually lower than the 826. Our local dealer doesn't carry the 928 (though I suspect they could order one in). I've been on the fence for the last several weeks...


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## BoulerCOSnow (Sep 30, 2015)

I struggle to justify that price jump. The new 826s are back ordered until November per Toro and dropping from $1599 to $1350 on the 926 makes it tempting. My concerns over the engine size is the only thing holding me back. I agree on the 2" difference being negligible.


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## Bryan78 (Jan 10, 2015)

I've heard supposedly that the 265 is quite a bit more powerful than the 252 as it's a big block (unsure if the term big block is correct here) and the oil capacity is quite a bit more. Loncin's site has no info on the 252 unfortunately, have a feeling it's because the 252 is new as far as I know for this year. Know the 265 engine itself does look quite a bit bigger and the 928 is about 20 pounds heavier.


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## cbnsoul (Nov 13, 2012)

Not sure how much more powerful the 265 really is. As you mentioned there is no info on the Loncin site about the 252 but the 212 info is there:

302cc
6.2 kW
18.5 N-m

265cc
5.3 kW
15.5 N-m

212cc
4.4 kW
12.5 N-m

Power each at 3600 rpm and torque each at 2500 rpm

The jump between any 2 engines above is about 40 cc with the power .9 and torque 3 N-m between any two engines, so no difference between the "small-blocks" and "large blocks". With the 252 being so close (oddly close, I think) to the 265, it would likely be in the 5.0 kWz and 14.7 N-m range. If that is truly the case, the power per inch of bucket size for the 826 and 928 is just about exactly the same.

As an aside, they are using that 252cc engine on the high-end SnowMaster. While I still have reservations about the SnowMaster lineup, that's a LOT of power for a single stage blower.


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## Bryan78 (Jan 10, 2015)

That's an interesting comparison. I had asked Toro for specifics on the engine. All they told me was that it was a 252 cc and a G250. I stumbled across this and have to think this is our engine. Looks like 5.2 kW.


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## cbnsoul (Nov 13, 2012)

Good find! I found something similar for the 212 but couldn't track down the 252. If that's correct, it's basically the same output as the 265 which makes it even more surprising they make two engines with such a similar displacement.


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## Cardo111 (Feb 16, 2015)

BoulerCOSnow said:


> I've done a ton of research and narrowed my choices down to an Ariens 28" SHO or a Toro HD 826/928. I can get the Ariens for $1080 or the HD 928 for $1350. The HD 826 is $1299 so upping to the HD 928 seems like an easy choice. I like the quick chute controls and power steering on the Toros and am leaning that way. I have read a ton on how great the HD 1028 is, but not much has been said about the HD 928 other than it seems to be adequate. It appears, the Toro's anti-clogging system makes up for the lesser HP.
> 
> I might be opening up a can of worm's, but does anyone have suggestions? I live just outside of Boulder, CO and we generally get 90" of snow each year, but hit around 125" last year.


The Toro Quick Stick is very intuitive and is the easiest chute control to maneuver, whereas the Ariens Deluxe series manual crank over the dash is a bit cumbersome but very reliable long-term. I have looked at the HD 928 and the Ariens Deluxe 28 SHO. The Ariens seems to be built more substantially, the Toro bucket seemed light gauge and the top lip was sharp to the touch. I like the Ariens rolled top edge a lot better. Based on visual build quality I tend to think that Toro profit margins are likely higher than Ariens. In an earlier post on this thread I attached Toro's specs on this 265cc Loncin motor they state it puts out 15.9 ft. Lbs. of torque. 

I know not everyone is a big fan of the Ariens Auto Turn limited slip type steering system as long as your driveway is not too rough with ruts or a lot of dips it should work fine. People change the skid shoes if they have issues and that proves very helpfuL. I thought the Toro steering levers and plastic auger and drive levers reminded me of a cheap bicycle but I do realize their machines have a good reputation. Additionally I don't like the engine oil drain on the side of the unit by the tire. 

It seems like the pricing where you live is very competitive those are less than NY metro prices for sure. Did you consider the Ariens Platinum 30 SHO (will give you more bells and whistles and plenty of power), there are some really good financing promos through Ariens and Sheffield right now, check the Ariens website under financing or my previous posts for details. Good luck with whichever machine you choose.


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## Bryan78 (Jan 10, 2015)

Thanks. Very interesting, so it would at least appear that the 826 should be comparably powered to the 926. 


Cardo, did you buy that 24 SHO yet?


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## Cardo111 (Feb 16, 2015)

Yes I did Bryan, it was over 80 degrees and humid today but the Fall will finally be coming to this area starting tonight with a cool down. I can't wait to try it out. Thanks for asking, have you decided which one you're going to get?


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## Bryan78 (Jan 10, 2015)

Congrats! Yeah we have been in the 60's, 40's at night. Funny story, but decided to go with the 826 just based on it being a little easier for my wife to use and think for where I'm at (40 miles west of Chicago) it will do the job. Anyhow went to the dealer today and noticed the one they have on display has some sort of white stain near the gas cap that wouldn't rub off. Being picky, and the fact that my little boys were getting rowdy and the store was busy, decided to head out. Now I don't know whether to see if they have another or what. Don't want to be overly picky but at the same time, expect the thing to be pristine. Maybe I'm meant to keep struggling with the single stage year after year!


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## Cardo111 (Feb 16, 2015)

Thanks! I know I am partial to Ariens but that is a good machine, with the 26" auger size and Toro's reputable engineering it should have plenty of power.

That is a funny story. I am the same way, would have done the same thing especially with the added stress of my kids running around the place. You spent a lot of time doing your homework and still have a machine so there is no need to buy a blemished unit especially at a non discounted price (the dealer will just wait for someone not as retentive as us...lol). It's a large purchase and you want it to be nice and new when you take it home which is what you are paying for. I was a little stressed that mine was still on the sales floor for the week it took to get it delivered (the dealer was good and delivery was included the day and time just had to work for the both of us). 

It is still early enough in the season and your dealer should be getting some additional inventory within the promo timeframe. Good luck with it and let me know how it goes.


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## Bryan78 (Jan 10, 2015)

Thanks a lot, Cardo, and I will definitely let you know.


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## BoulerCOSnow (Sep 30, 2015)

Cardo111 said:


> The Toro Quick Stick is very intuitive and is the easiest chute control to maneuver, whereas the Ariens Deluxe series manual crank over the dash is a bit cumbersome but very reliable long-term. I have looked at the HD 928 and the Ariens Deluxe 28 SHO. The Ariens seems to be built more substantially, the Toro bucket seemed light gauge and the top lip was sharp to the touch. I like the Ariens rolled top edge a lot better. Based on visual build quality I tend to think that Toro profit margins are likely higher than Ariens. In an earlier post on this thread I attached Toro's specs on this 265cc Loncin motor they state it puts out 15.9 ft. Lbs. of torque.
> 
> I know not everyone is a big fan of the Ariens Auto Turn limited slip type steering system as long as your driveway is not too rough with ruts or a lot of dips it should work fine. People change the skid shoes if they have issues and that proves very helpfuL. I thought the Toro steering levers and plastic auger and drive levers reminded me of a cheap bicycle but I do realize their machines have a good reputation. Additionally I don't like the engine oil drain on the side of the unit by the tire.
> 
> It seems like the pricing where you live is very competitive those are less than NY metro prices for sure. Did you consider the Ariens Platinum 30 SHO (will give you more bells and whistles and plenty of power), there are some really good financing promos through Ariens and Sheffield right now, check the Ariens website under financing or my previous posts for details. Good luck with whichever machine you choose.



I grew up in Wisconsin with a single-stage Toro that did the job, sometimes with a lot of help. I've dealt with the snows of Boulder for the last several years, but just don't have the time to spend all day shoveling.

I am struggling on the Ariens 28" SHO and the Toro HD 928. The Ariens Platinums are nice and improve upon the chute design, but I don't want to jump into that next price category, which is the same reason I don't want to move up to the HD 1028. I've negotiated the 28" Ariens and Toro HD 926 down to those prices. 

I live on a sloped corner lot with a long and winding sidewalk. The Toro HD's trigger steering looks like it would be easier to use on my set up. I have a lot of joints in my 3 car wide driveway; would the Ariens Auto Turn catch in those? A number of reviews were not favorable of the feature. I'd also like to use it on part of my backyard for the dogs, will the Auto Turn be an issue in that setting?

At the end of the day, both appear to be great machines. The pros/cons are close. 

I appreciate the input.


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## Slinger (Oct 9, 2014)

Very hard to believe Toro's claim of 15.9 ft lbs of torque from their 265cc engine. 
Briggs Snow series engines (which are probably somewhat similar) go about:
9.5 ft lbs for their 208cc 
11.5 ft lbs for their 250cc
14 ft lbs for the 305
16.5 ft lbs for the 342cc. 

The Predator 212cc is 8.1 ft lbs and their 301cc is only 12.9 ft.lbs. 

Even Subaru's EX27, which is a 265cc engine that easily rivals Honda's GX series, only produces 13.74 ft lbs.

That Toro motor must be something really special.:smiley-confused009:


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## Cardo111 (Feb 16, 2015)

Slinger said:


> Very hard to believe Toro's claim of 15.9 ft lbs of torque from their 265cc engine.
> Briggs Snow series engines (which are probably somewhat similar) go about:
> 9.5 ft lbs for their 208cc
> 11.5 ft lbs for their 250cc
> ...


Slinger,

I completely understand your point. They do not seem to advertise torque ratings on any other machines and that one is now discontinued. I think they likely overstated the torque rating in those specs. It would be nice to see one central rating system that all manufactures had to abide by, instead of some giving you torque (which is a good thing) and others only giving cc's which really does not help the consumer at all as certain engines of the same size will generate more power than others.

However they do imply horsepower ratings in their model numbers and models with the 265cc engine are 9hp (according to Toro).


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## cbnsoul (Nov 13, 2012)

Think someone at Toro forgot to change their units. On a prior page I listed the Loncin specs for three engines, including the 265. It was stated to have 15.5* N m* of torque which equates to about 11.5 ft lbs, which makes a lot more sense.


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## Bryan78 (Jan 10, 2015)

pretty big difference there


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## AbominableSnowman (Nov 14, 2016)

Bumping this thread because, for more than a year, there hasn't been any new information on the power output of the Loncin 252cc. Ironically, Loncin's website seems to be down today, but IIRC, it still did not list the 252cc as a separate engine when recently checked -- only the 250cc. Pretty sure the 252cc is Loncin's G series horizontal shaft engine. The G240 is shown as 242cc and the G270 as 270cc. I did find this interesting little nugget on a UK site, but the controls don't match what's on my Toro's engine: GeoTech STP971 WEL snow thrower best deal on AgriEuro


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## DennisP (Jan 10, 2016)

Ok, so fact of the matter is a 250cc (or 252cc or 258cc or ANYTHING in that range) that is a chinese built OHV engine is 11.5 ft-lbs.

I have a Briggs 11.5 ft-lbs 250cc engine on my Simplicity 1222ee... Same difference.

Unless Chinese engine makers start making stroker motors, you won't find anything more on anything in that range.

So, why exactly is this being brought back up??? Because, any way you look at it, NONE OF IT MATTERS. 

We already know what kind of output there is on a Chinese built engine for a given CC. For 250cc or there-abouts it is 11.5 ft-lbs.

Fact: The majority of manufacturers marketing departments all suck (outside of Honda themselves it seems) and their marketing is ALWAYS suspect since marketing/sales types only care about making sales, not having accurate information.


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