# Do snowblower brands specialize?



## Vailen (Feb 16, 2014)

As I have learned more and more about snowblowers the past couple of months, I am curious about the various companies that manufacture them. More specifically, is one brand better than another brand for engine size? distance the snow can be thrown? hydrostatic drive?

How are brands like Ariens, Honda, Toro, CubCadet, Husqvarna, etc. differentiating from themselves in the 2-stage snowblower market? CubCadet, for example, introduced a 3-stage machine this year. Is that any better than a 2 stage? Ariens introduced a hydrostatic transmission this year as well. Did anyone else have that technology already?

Obviously, the 2-stage snowblower market is very competitive. I am wondering if specific brands have become well-known for something specific about their snowblowers. Are there any differences? Or are all these snowblowers relatively the same with only a few bells-and-whistles to make them seem different?

Please note that my question is *not* intended to claim that one brand is superior or inferior to the other. I am just trying to gain a better understanding on how these different companies compete in such a competitive market, and how they are able to differentiate themselves. 

For this discussion, let's limit the "market" to 2-stage (or 3-stage snowblowers) snowblowers, the customers are people who experience winters with > 40 inches of snowfall per year, and the customers are willing to pay at least $1800 for a new snowblower.


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## Smolenski7 (Nov 24, 2010)

Vailen said:


> For this discussion, let's limit the "market" to 2-stage (or 3-stage snowblowers) snowblowers, the customers are people who experience winters with > 40 inches of snowfall per year, and the customers are willing to pay at least $1800 for a new snowblower.


That's pretty limiting. Basically, the only people that should reply are those that live in the northeast, northern Michigan/Minnesota, Rockies, parts of California, and Canada who can afford an $1800+ snow blower.


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## Vailen (Feb 16, 2014)

Smolenski7 said:


> That's pretty limiting. Basically, the only people that should reply are those that live in the northeast, northern Michigan/Minnesota, Rockies, parts of California, and Canada who can afford an $1800+ snow blower.


Yeah...maybe you are right. Let's remove the budget limit. I was just trying to narrow the focus of the discussion. Let's just stick with 2-stage snowblowers.


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## New_HondaHS35 (Jan 18, 2014)

Why is Honda SOOOO expensive??


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## enigma-2 (Feb 11, 2014)

New_HondaHS35 said:


> Why is Honda SOOOO expensive??


Simple. "H" "o" "n" "d" "a".


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## Ryan (Dec 13, 2013)

Because you are paying for a name. Just like Toyota and Honda have higher resale values for their vehicles, which they earned by building superior vehicles back in the 80s and 90s. But everyone else caught up and in some cases, have exceeded those standards, yet Honda and Crapota are still cashing in on the value of their name. The Honda name in general benefited from this with their small engined products like the lawn mowers, ATVs, motorcycles, and snowblowers.


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## enigma-2 (Feb 11, 2014)

Vailen said:


> As I have learned more and more about snowblowers the past couple of months, I am curious about the various companies that manufacture them. More specifically, is one brand better than another brand for engine size? distance the snow can be thrown? hydrostatic drive?
> 
> How are brands like Ariens, Honda, Toro, CubCadet, Husqvarna, etc. differentiating from themselves in the 2-stage snowblower market? CubCadet, for example, introduced a 3-stage machine this year. Is that any better than a 2 stage? Ariens introduced a hydrostatic transmission this year as well. Did anyone else have that technology already?


When I looked at the various snow throwers, things I read about were the thickness of the metal housing, the quality of the parts, some use plastic chutes, some steel, some use cast-iron gear cases, some stamped steel or cast alum. Some used powered primer paint, baked on, some just spray color enamel over the bare steel. Rolled edges vs. straight. 

It's all confusing and difficult to make a true determination as to what is better, who is better. My current (last) snowblower was a Yard Machines, a specialty store form of MTD. Cheap, but adequate in all respects. But hardly innovative. 

I think what your leaning toward in your question is, who is really the most innovative? Who is advancing the market the best? What new features are really useful?

I decided to buy a new snow thrower in January. I just plain got tired of stopping, re-adjusting the spout or deflector, start up again, or stop and wheel the blower back and forth to turn it around, etc. I'm just getting too old to man-handle a machine in the cold. So I started looking on line. I was tired of adequate. I wanted the best. Bells and whistles. Dependability. And ... innovation. I wanted the strongest, most solid, most dependable, most trusted and easiest to use. I wanted roller bearings instead of flange bearings. Double belts instead of single. 

And I looked and compared for about a month. I finally settled on Ariens. Specifically the Platinum series. What tipped the scales more than anything else was the innovation. The company that innovated new and worthwhile features is the leader to me. All the others are copy-cats. 

Specifically, Ariens developed what's best described as a game-changer; their "Auto-Turn" steering. No one else has anything like it. 

Didn't really like the color orange however, but I'll get used to it, especially while making effortless turns. <g>

I thought the Toro 3-stage wasn't a big deal, throwing snow a little further doesn't really appeal to me. (Esp when you consider the additional cost.) My little 24" Yard Machines can throw a good 15 ft and that far enough off the driveway for all practical purposes. It's innovative, but not worthwhile (to me). I imagine we will be seeing a host of three-stage blowers next year. But I'll bet we won't be seeing a knock-off auto-steering from any of Ariens competition.

All of the engines are now made in China. Nothing is made in the US any more. But their all good quality. I trust Honda engines from past expreience, they make a great roto-tiller, but a so-so lawn mower (and they are over-priced IMO).

I found things like Ariens hydrostatic drive innovative, but too new to be certain it will stand the course.


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

Differentiation? I'll mention what I can think of. 

When I think of hydrostatic transmissions in blowers, I think of Honda. That doesn't mean they're the only one to offer it, but I'd say they are better-known for it. Speaking only for myself, of course. The big benefit I see is I could have the machine just creep forward, for really heavy/deep stuff. Even 1st gear on my machine can sometimes be a bit quick, for really deep areas. 

I think Ariens was the most-common purveyor of differential transmissions. Again, not the only ones. I've heard Toro had an optional one. But Ariens did it on a lot of machines. Now there are auto-turn options, which I have not gotten to try. I'm happy with my differential & chains, but I may simply not know what I'm missing. I was also happy with my locked-axle MTD, before getting my Ariens  

Toro has had a different augers design (the drum). People seem to really like it (again, haven't used it myself). They also had fully-geared transmissions, which tempted me towards the Powershift machines (I've had friction-disk systems slipping, even after checking them over). 

Different brands are trying to implement slick chute-control systems, also for adjusting the chute vertical angle. I've played with some of these in stores, and haven't really been impressed. They strike me as fiddly (some more than others), even when new and in a warm store, never mind when 5-10 years old and partially frozen. I also want to be able to aim the chute exactly where I want, not pick from 10 (or whatever) left-right positions. It feels like solving a problem that wasn't really asked, to me  My "newer" (2000) Ariens still uses a crank, but swivels fully in something like 1.5-2 turns, vs maybe 6-8 turns of the crank for my older one (1993). That's plenty quick for me, and it's simple/robust. 

Some brands (John Deere?) have added electric chute controls. This is another one whose benefit I don't really see. But hey, I haven't used it, maybe it's incredible, and super-reliable. 

I applaud companies that don't *just* go for "high level" specs. That is, something like selling an "8hp" (not called that now) 26-28" machine. But with a short bucket height, small-diameter augers, and a small, slow-spinning impeller. People look for power & width, most people don't know to look at the augers & impellers. So brands impress me when they still do a good job on things that people *don't* all look at.


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## Spectrum (Jan 6, 2013)

I think there is MUCH more differentiation between the tiers of the top brands than between the actual brands. By top brands I mean Simplicity, Toro and Ariens.

Honda is also considered top tier but I set them aside and being overly feature rich and unreasonably expensive. They are high performance machines but from what I have seen and heard says they aren't that tough making them less than ideal IMO. 

Features like hydrostatic transmissions can be financially terminal if they need service and while elegant and cool are not needed to attain good performance. A solution in search of a problem perhaps. Definitely a feature for those that really want it.


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## UNDERTAKER (Dec 30, 2013)

my 2 cents on that 3 stage is a selling gimmick. for years everything was only 2 stage and it has served us well. like I said in another post I am a die hard toro person. I will keep the old toros living on forever. I am not big on their new stuff. the powershift back to the old school 70's heavy metal will only be in my garage!!!!!!


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## 94EG8 (Feb 13, 2014)

Vailen said:


> Is one brand better than another brand for engine size? distance the snow can be thrown? hydrostatic drive?


Yes. A low end cheap machine will in many cases not throw the snow as far as a higher end machine with the same size engine. Even in terms of comparing friction wheel drives a cheap machine will usually have a smaller, weaker friction wheel setup than something from a higher end brand. You'll find too that a cheaper machine (MTD happens to be really bad for this) will use very thing steel and the auger housing will get beat up, bent, and crack and need to be welded within a relatively short amount of time.



Vailen said:


> Ariens introduced a hydrostatic transmission this year as well. Did anyone else have that technology already?


Honda's been using hydrostatic transmissions for over 20 years now.



Vailen said:


> Obviously, the 2-stage snowblower market is very competitive. I am wondering if specific brands have become well-known for something specific about their snowblowers. Are there any differences? Or are all these snowblowers relatively the same with only a few bells-and-whistles to make them seem different?


A lot of the lower end to mid grade machines used to be made by 3 companies: AYP, MTD, and Murray. So in that case several brands were all more or less the same besides the feature set. Just as an example Murray sold machines under their own name, along with Machines sold under the Craftsman name, Brute, John Deere, and several others. MTD sold machines under the White, Yard-Man, Yard Machines, Bolens, Cub Cadet, Troy Bilt, Snow Flite and Craftsman names again, there are others. You'll find some differences between the 3 brands, but not a lot that matters between all the sub brands made by a specific manufacturer.

However, once you get into the higher end stuff, Honda, Ariens, Simplicity, and Toro things change, then you'll find real differences.



New_HondaHS35 said:


> Why is Honda SOOOO expensive??


Part of it is the shipping from Japan and I'm pretty sure there are some import tariffs as well. But there are also a lot of little things that add up, ball bearings everywhere, heavy duty motorcycle/ATV style control cables and then some bigger things like the Honda engine itself and the hydrostatic transmission.


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## Spectrum (Jan 6, 2013)

POWERSHIFT93 said:


> my 2 cents on that 3 stage is a selling gimmick. for years everything was only 2 stage and it has served us well.


I agree.....

In the 1970's there were a bunch of machines that had chain driven 3rd stages. Usually above the main auger and meant to actively knock the bank down, they may have had marginal value but "open chain running in the snow"... yuck.

There have also been some dual stacked augers like MotoMower, Lombard and others did that look pretty cool. That's become a common commercial system format.

That nose mounted beanie propeller that MTD/ Cub / whatever stuck on the font of the worm drive is the most ridiculous thing they could have done. Effectiveness = dubious, durability = even less.

But back to the OP.... Some specialize in quality, others not so. Even with the quality lines you need to buy top shelf. Their lesser machines are more on par with the puppy mills.


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## Garandman (Jan 24, 2014)

New_HondaHS35 said:


> Why is Honda SOOOO expensive??


Hydrostatic drive.


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## Kiss4aFrog (Nov 3, 2013)

_*"Honda's been using hydrostatic transmissions for over 20 years now."

*_But what is your point ??

It hasn't caught on with the rest. There are a couple companies that have used them but is it worth the cost and complexity ?? A friction disc and a drive plate are cheap and easy and very simple to diagnose and work on. They've been used longer and get the job done.


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## MnJim (Jan 26, 2014)

I kinda wish they would offer a build your own option., Not a actually build it yourself but let you choose the options you want and not packages like the auto makers make you choose.


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## 94EG8 (Feb 13, 2014)

Kiss4aFrog said:


> _*"Honda's been using hydrostatic transmissions for over 20 years now."
> 
> *_But what is your point ??


The OP asked if anyone besides Ariens used them, I answered his question.



Kiss4aFrog said:


> It hasn't caught on with the rest. There are a couple companies that have used them but is it worth the cost and complexity ?? A friction disc and a drive plate are cheap and easy and very simple to diagnose and work on. They've been used longer and get the job done.


It's absolutely worth the added cost and complexity. Nothing ever happens to them. Don't forget I used to work on this stuff professionally and that included a warranty contract with Sears. We used to replace a lot of friction wheels, and control cables as well. Some are setup better than others but non work as well as a hydrostatic transmission.

Btw, just as an FYI Hondas really aren't so much expensive because of the hydrostatic, it has more to do with them just being a Honda, up until about 1990 or so they had a friction wheel as well and they were still just as expensive, relatively speaking.


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## MnJim (Jan 26, 2014)

94EG8 said:


> The OP asked if anyone besides Ariens used them, I answered his question.
> 
> 
> 
> It's absolutely worth the added cost and complexity. Nothing ever happens to them. Don't forget I used to work on this stuff professionally and that included a warranty contract with Sears. We used to replace a lot of friction wheels, and control cables as well. Some are setup better than others but non work as well as a hydrostatic transmission.


 http://www.snowblowerforum.com/foru...42-hs724ta-dumped-its-tranny-fluid-floor.html


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## 94EG8 (Feb 13, 2014)

MnJim said:


> http://www.snowblowerforum.com/foru...42-hs724ta-dumped-its-tranny-fluid-floor.html


A seal popped out, I had seen that and I knew someone was going to bring it up, but that is literally the only time I've ever seen or heard tell of anyone having issues with a Honda hydrostat. As a rule they're very, very reliable. Everything is a gamble but the odds are in your favor with a Honda.

For what it's worth a lot of gardens tractors in the '70s used a hydrostatic trans and a lot of them are still going strong, it's not a gimmick, it's proven technology that works. The friction wheel setup is used strictly due to cost issues, it's a crude method to transfer power, it requires frequent replacement of the rubber friction wheel, the wheel frequently starts sticking on the hex shaft and needs to be taken apart, cleaned and lubricated, you have bearings to go bad on the drive plate, control cables to stretch and break, a spring to fall off/rust off.

If a friction wheel setup works for you that's great, they've worked for years for lots of people, but they're certainly not on the same level as a real hydrostatic setup.


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

I see what you're saying, but I'm not sure I fully agree with it. 

For discussion, we'll stipulate that hydrostatic failures are uncommon. And that friction-disk systems have wear items (though I doubt most people replace their disks very often). 

But when there *is* a failure/problem, the results are very different. 

A friction disk is $15-20. A broken spring is, well, pretty cheap. Both can be replaced somewhat easily by the end user, if they're mechanically inclined. Common failures would include the friction disk getting old and slipping more, which would likely happen gradually (giving the user some warning, and you can still use it in the meantime). 

A hydrostatic tranny failure, on the other hand, could be very expensive. The end user is less likely to be able to repair it themselves, so the machine will have to be transported to a dealer. And the repair would likely be quite expensive (speculation on my part, but seems reasonable). If the tranny had to be replaced, $$$. 

Don't take this wrong, when shopping for a used machine a few years ago I was trying to see if I could get a hydro Honda within my budget (I could not). But at least on a used machine, I was concerned that if a tranny problem came up, I might end up with something not worth repairing.

(Edit- I do admittedly lean towards simplicity in my snow-removal equipment. If my mower has a problem, well, the grass can wait a week if it needs to. But if we got a foot of snow overnight, I need to get to work. The snowblower has to work  And I buy older, used stuff, so I've never had the benefit of a warranty)


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## Spectrum (Jan 6, 2013)

Viability of some of the hydro and other tech gadgets comes down to what you expect for life expectancy. 

I'll accept that a sealed hydrostatic transmission pushing a snowblower around should have an easy life. The warranty covers infant mortality and most have internal pressure relief so they can't hurt themselves or the associated drive train. If you plan to upgrade in 10 years or so you are on fairly solid ground for failure risk and parts availability. 

At this date I'm supporting Gilsons up to 48 years old and in some cases finding gears is tough enough!


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## ToroGuy (Jan 12, 2014)

Honda has had the hydro transmissions for a lonnnnng time before Ariens. I firmly believe that due to the design of the two stage blower not changing for such a long time the top "tier" of brands are almost on a level playing field. Ariens, Toro, Husky all up there. Honda and Yamaha probably just a bit better than those. Everything else falls below in the last tier.


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## 94EG8 (Feb 13, 2014)

A new hydrostatic trans is about $550 from Honda, that's not terrible for what it is.

I used to work on this stuff for living, it was quite common to see people coming in a few times through the winter and spending $300+ a year on repairs, _every year_. On the other hand it was pretty rare to see a Honda show up at all. If you're like most people that own a Honda you get at least 10 years out of before you have to do anything beyond change the oil.

If you're the type that does your own work, that can change the equation a bit, but for the most part you will spend far less on maintenance on a Honda over it's lifetime that with just about anything else.

I really haven't seen any issues with the hydrostatic end of the transmission, just issues with the gear case on some machines due to lack of lubrication and water contamination.


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## MnJim (Jan 26, 2014)

So instead of paying someone $300+ every year for repairs I should just sell the Ariens every three years and stay under warranty and pocket the extra money.


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

I do wonder if some of the fewer-Honda-repairs situation is simply because there are fewer of them sold. 

Like saying that 10 times as many Toyotas have engine problems than Ferraris do. Except that there are 10,000 times as many Toyotas sold. 

Pretty much everyone on our street has a blower. Some Ariens, and a bunch of Craftsman/MTD type stuff. I finally got to see a Honda 928 with tracks and everything for the first time recently, I hardly ever notice Hondas being used (maybe it's just our area). 

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they're bad, or anything like that. But I do think qty sold likely comes into play, with the # of reported failures. 

And they make great stuff. I have an EU2000i generator, which is great so far. They are apparently pretty bulletproof, including lots of units in heavy commercial use. They have a plastic camshaft, and a hard-anodized aluminum bore, vs metal camshaft and iron cylinder liner in the comparable Yamaha. Questionable on-paper. But the proof is in the pudding, they can run for thousands of hours, and I'd take my used Honda over a new "off brand" generator any day of the week.


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## 94EG8 (Feb 13, 2014)

MnJim said:


> So instead of paying someone $300+ every year for repairs I should just sell the Ariens every three years and stay under warranty and pocket the extra money.





RedOctobyr said:


> I do wonder if some of the fewer-Honda-repairs situation is simply because there are fewer of them sold.
> 
> Like saying that 10 times as many Toyotas have engine problems than Ferraris do. Except that there are 10,000 times as many Toyotas sold.


I get what you're saying, but no, they really do build a superior product. Don't get me wrong, Ariens and Simplicity both make a very durable product, but other than the Ariens hydropro they have a friction wheel transmission that needs service periodically. It's also very rare to have carb issues with a Honda, unlike Tecumseh and Briggs & Stratton to a slightly lesser degree (the cheap chinese engines are actually quite good in this regard) For the most part all you will ever have to do with a Honda over the course of it's lifetime is change the oil and replace the shoes and scraper bar as needed. 



RedOctobyr said:


> And they make great stuff. I have an EU2000i generator, which is great so far. They are apparently pretty bulletproof, including lots of units in heavy commercial use. They have a plastic camshaft, and a hard-anodized aluminum bore, vs metal camshaft and iron cylinder liner in the comparable Yamaha. Questionable on-paper. But the proof is in the pudding, they can run for thousands of hours, and I'd take my used Honda over a new "off brand" generator any day of the week.


I remember Briggs & Stratton switched to plastic cams way back in the early '90s and I thought it was pretty questionable, I still can't recall seeing any go bad, as you said the proof is in the pudding.


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## Vailen (Feb 16, 2014)

I really appreciate all of your posts and I am learning so much from all of you. I sincerely hope my new Ariens only requires the routine maintenance over the next decade. I did not realize that the hydro drive can be so costly to repair. Only time will tell.


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