# Tecumseh LH358SA Will not Start- Need Help



## Bobami (Feb 21, 2016)

This is a NEW post in reference to same engine as previous post labelled "TECUMSEH L-Head Definitive valve Clearances"


History;
Snow blower is an MTD 28 inch about 10-12 years old and belongs to an elderly neighbor I help out.
Engine is 10HP Tec LH358SA ran well at end of last winter according to neighbor.
Transmission was frozen this fall when he was getting ready for winter so he asked me to look at it.
I replaced a corroded gear and freed up the transmission so it rolled freely forward and backward without the engine running to move it around in the garage. Previously it would not even budge an inch.
When I tried to start it before returning it to the neighbor it was very difficult to pull the recoil so I used the electric starter.
The electric starter ran for 2 burst and then the engine was ceased!
I had to remove the electric starter and then I could turn the engine over by using a big socket and ratchet on the shaft end where pulley is but it was definitely not smooth. it would bind and then smooth out till it got around again to whatever was creating the resistance.


I have been tinkering with Tecumseh engines for over 20 years. the extent of my tinkering is removing and cleaning carbs; removing and replacing contact points/condensers. removing replacing electronic ignition modules with lots of success.


I have never been inside one of these engines so I decided this was going to be the first!. I suspected the connecting rod was broke but that was not the case.


That said this is what I did:


Removed engine from frame of snow blower.
Removed Shroud, flywheel, Sump cover, oil, and head.
Removed crankshaft, camshaft and lifters, and even the piston from the block. (labelled lifters so went back same way.
DID NOT REMOVE VALVES AT THIS TIME.
Cylinder was spotless no signs of wearing at all.
Inside the engine was spotless as well. No sludge. No metal shavings. Very clean oil. everything was shiny. inside.


I took the crankshaft and cam shaft to our local Ariens dealer that has a tremendous reputation to inspect the compression release mechanism on the cam shaft and they said it all looked good and had no advice for what could have caused the binding in the first place...…..


So I decided to put it all back together.
Had to buy a compression ring tool as I struggled to get the piston back in the cylinder without it.
I even bought a new torque wrench that I never owned before.
I put it all back together and no binding?? 
Yes I watched a you tube and made sure the crank and cam markings were aligned perfectly.
Before I put the head on I was able to rotate the flywheel by hand with no binding at all. The valves went up an down and all looked good to me.
I put all the externals parts back on...……..shroud, sump cover, ignition module, carb (after a thorough cleaning even though it looked clean inside), fuel tank (cleaned it earlier), replaced fuel line, purchased a new muffler as original was all disintegrated on surface that attaches to engine.
I installed and torqued the head per the published specs...………………


I was now ready to try and start it up. NOTHING absolutely NOTHING but a dry plug, plenty of spark, but WOULD NOT START.


I was directed to look at the valve clearance from reading stuff in the forum so I removed the head again put the cylinder at top with both valves closed and took the measurements of Intake at .005 and exhaust at .007 as I recall. That's when I wrote the post "Tecumseh L-Head definitive valve clearances.


I know this is long winded but guys in the forum like facts and steps so I am trying to recall as many as possible.


I filed both valves to be .011 and put it all back together last night.


Tried to start it this morning and still have nothing! plenty of spark, no wet plug so I am leaning towards a lack of compression and don't know why?? 


I know fuel is flowing to carb. I know carb is passing fuel into chamber when I push primer button. Can see it and smell it.


I do not feel a tremendous amount of resistance on recoil when I pull it. there is some but nothing like my own Ariens with same 10hp Tecumseh.


I have tried everything within my knowledge of these TEC engines and am seeking now seeking additional help.


Can compression be measured on engines with a Compression release mechanism? Somewhere I think I read you need at least 70-80 Pounds of pressure to get the BANG.


Frustrated as all get out.


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## Dauntae (Nov 10, 2016)

Yes you can test but need the electric starter to do the compression test, has a similar issue with a 4 stroke single stage, took most of engine apart mostly just to learn as I only spent $50 on it so no big loss if I killed it, but got everything cleaned and tightened up and it also seemed to be low on compression, Then I remembered someone telling me to put a bit of oil on the cylinder wall of a freshly assembled engine so I put some marvel mystery oil in the plug hole and it seemed to draw fuel a little better and finally started, don’t know if the oil helped or just got lucky but it seemed to work out and now I have a running single stage to use.


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## bad69cat (Nov 30, 2015)

will it at least try to run if you spritz it with a bit of starting fluid? That will at least let you know you have timing and spark set up correct. If so, then it might be as simple as a gas flow problem.... check needle/seat and float levels..... if you can keep it running with ether then you know something is amiss on the carb side.


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## Bluejoe (Nov 29, 2016)

Hello All timing marks on cam and crank correct. Piston rings staggered when replacing piston. Piston/rod replaced in cylinder correct ? If you did all that you should have lapped the valves. Prior to that a leak down test to see leakage bypass valves. You can perform a leak down test now that engine is assembled. Maybe valves should be set lash at .008. Check Spark. Check flywheel key position and set coil lash at .010 gap. If spark plug is dry then move to carb cleaning and adjustment. Check linkage positions on carb then adjust govenor.


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

Do a leakdown test on it to see where it may be leaking compression. If you did not have the valves out, a valve might not be sealing. A bad valve? A bad or loose seat? Pitted valve faces or seats? A stuck valve in its guide? Possibilities.
At least you got the experience of tearing an engine down to see what is inside of it. The more you do, the better you will get with them.
If it has a leak in the valves you would hear air hissing out of the exhaust or the carb, if it is a cylinder leak, rings, you would hear air leaking out of the oil fill or the engine breather tube.
Just a couple of hints to experiment with if it appears to be lacking compression. 
Normally to check leakdown, set the piston approximately 1/4 inch past top dead center on the compression stroke so that the valves are fully closed in case it would have an automatic decompression release.


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## Fat City (Feb 11, 2017)

When you assembled engine, did piston rings roll freely in their groove ? When an engine seizes, the ring sticks in the ring groove . Best bet, remove rings, clean piston grooves up, a small file works great, give bore a quick honing so oil can stick to cylinder, test fit piston in bore, should slide smoothly top to bottom . Put one old ring in bore, use piston to square it up, measure end gap of old ring. Now use a new ring, and again measure gap . If gap is too small, one end of ring must be filed, until gap is same as old ring . Put new rings on piston, oil rings, and verify they rotate . Now you have an engine that won't seize when it heats up . When you added mystery oil, it loosened the stuck ring, or helped seal piston. Hope that helps . Nothing is worse than fixing an engine, only to have it fail worse later .


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## Bobami (Feb 21, 2016)

I just got back to looking at this engine. Had some personal issues going on.
I can get it to start if I push the primer button 10-15 times. It fires but only runs for a few seconds.
Sounds like a fuel deprivation problem.
The carb has been off several times and is absolutely spotless. The float is set right jets are clean bowl is clean. New float, seat and fuel inlet valve
Has fixed main jet so no adjustment needed.
All I can think of is the intake stroke isn’t sucking fuel into combustion chamber.
This engine is driving me nuts.

Any more ideas out there before I throw in the towel on this engine.


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

Air leak in intake? Maybe a munged gasket on reassembly?


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## RIT333 (Feb 6, 2014)

You may want to check theengine's compression. Sounds like low compression, which will not be enough to allow the intake to suck in additional fuel needed after the primer bulb injects some.


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## Bobami (Feb 21, 2016)

That’s exactly where I was going. No idea why I would have low compression. This engine ran great a year ago.


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## Bobami (Feb 21, 2016)

If I didn’t align the cam and crank shafts correctly (which I don’t think I could have messed up)........could this cause the engine to not suck fuel in?


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## melson (Feb 9, 2015)

You didn't mention checking the fuel line for cracks and/or filter for blockage; it sure does sound like a fuel starvation issue. Good luck.


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## Bobami (Feb 21, 2016)

Should have mentioned I Put a new fuel line on when I had cowling off. I am close to giving up on this engine. Never been more frustrated with a tecumseh. I love these engines but this one has got me stumped. Wish I could measure compression but the compression release doesn’t allow for good readings right?


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## Dauntae (Nov 10, 2016)

if it has electric start, that will give you a good compression test, But the pull string is impossible to get a good reading as your stating.


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

You could have a leaking valve causing loss of compression.
A valve could be sticking in its guide, a bad valve face or seat. Pitting or cracks, or just worn. 
You could dress up the seat and faces by using some lapping compound, or if you have a valve seat cutter and a valve grinding tool. Most of the time if it is a bad valve, you usually just replace the valve unless it isn't too bad and you have the skill and tools to do a valve job like that.
I would give it a "leak down" test first, to determine if it is a leaking valve or something else, like a head gasket or rings, cylinder leakage before you remove the cylinder head.


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## gsnod (Sep 2, 2013)

*Having the same issue*

Bobami;

This is exactly the issue I'm having with a Tecumseh LH318SA engine now, that is mounted on an Ariens 932105 blower. When I got it, I had spark, yet could not get it to fire or sputter at all. Took off the carb, and discovered that there was no throttle plate in the carb! Made me wonder where it went.....Put on a new carb.

Took off the head, and found the throttle plate screw embedded in the head. Did not find the throttle plate. Adjusted the valves and put it back together. 

Like you, I have fuel in the carb, yet my plug is dry, without even an odor of gas. I need to pull the feeder conduit that connects the carb to the engine, and make sure the throttle plate is not stuck in there (I should have done that before).

I'm wondering whether I have such poor compression that I don't get any suction of gas? And, since I've got spark, I assume that the key is not sheared (but that's an easy check).

Checked and the key was not sheared. I have good spark, yet even with fuel in the plug hole, don't even get a sputter. I'll head to Autozone tomorrow and get a compression gauge to see what's up. Still don't know what happened to the original carb throttle butterfly! It's nowhere to be found.


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

Are both valves operating properly? If the throttle plate screw made its way into the head, it might have damaged the intake valve seat on the way through. So even if both valves are moving, they might not be sealing correctly. Does the cord feel too-easy to pull? 

To run, you need fuel, compression, and spark (at the right time). You gave it fuel. And you checked both spark, and the flywheel key (important, since you'd still see a spark if the key was sheared, it would just be at the wrong time). So compression is next on the list. 

Does the engine pull air into the carb's intake when spinning? And blow air out the exhaust? This is easier to check if it has electric start. It's a crude way to help ensure that, for instance, you don't have one valve that's never opening, which would prevent actual airflow through the engine.


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

I've seen that happen a couple times. The screw puts a little nick in the valve face and the seat causing a valve leak, low compression. A leak down test would have found the leak right away.
If it isn't too bad, you can regrind the valve a little bit and re cut the valve seat and it should seal itself to bring your compression back so it will start and run again.


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## gsnod (Sep 2, 2013)

Thank you RedOctobyr and ST1100A;

I stopped by Autozone this evening and borrowed a compression tester. Checked it on my own blower to make sure it was working, then hooked it up to the engine in question. Cranking with the electric starter, I got no reading at all, meaning the gauge needle did not move at all. I then put my hand by the muffler and felt strong outward airflow. When holding my hand by the carb choke, I had no suction. 

So I'm guessing I have an intake valve issue. Time to pull the head again and pull the intake valve and either replace it or lapp the valves. Might as well lapp both since I'm in there. I also remember seeing the intake valve collar (can't remember the name, but what the valve stem passes through towards the head) looking like it was rising up towards the head. I assume that should be re-seated downward?


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

I think that's the valve guide. I don't know if they can just be pressed down again, or if something more in-depth is required. I've heard discussions about that, but you'd have to look into it further.


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

That is the valve guide you see that moved up towards the head. They are pressed in and they do come loose from time to time. Tecumseh's were noted for that problem in the past. Tecumseh engines weren't the most reliable engines in their time.
I have seen throttle plate screws loosen and fall out and get sucked into the engine from time to time, they can damage the valve face, seat, cylinder wall, and become embedded in the piston head.
If the valve guide comes loose, the valve will not stay in a straight line with the seat and will leak. I have seen pressed in seats come loose in some engines.
Some guides that are pressed in are also "expanded" with a knurl-er to make them fit tighter. Then they have to be reamed.
If you can get a new valve guide, I would suggest taking the engine block to a good engine builder/machine shop to have the block inspected where the valve guide is located to make sure the hole in the block is not worn out excessively where the guide presses in at.
You used to be able to get guides that were a little bit "over-sized" so they would be able to be pressed in and stay tight, because when they came loose, they wore the hole in the block where they were mounted/pressed in at. 
If you would replace the guide, there are special tools to do the job and you will have to "ream" the guide so the valve stem fits properly.
Tecumseh engines were fun "mini-bike" and "go-kart" engines back in their day, but they blew up faster than they ran back in the early 70's. At least they were very cheap engines to replace and were a "dime a dozen" back then, but their "reliability" issues still haunt them today. Another reason to stay away from LCT engines, the company that took over Tecumseh and are still making unreliable engines like the old ones, even that they are new and a new design, their quality just isn't there like the old Tecumseh's they replaced.
Good luck with the repairing of your engine, you might get lucky and bring it back to life again as long as you can get the parts.


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## gsnod (Sep 2, 2013)

Thanks Much ST1100A and RedOctobyr for your wise and experienced advice. I'm gonna put two new valves in it and lapp them in. I'll need to figure out what to do about that exhaust guide that is rising up from the breather area. Since this is a double shaft ENGINE, and those are not too available, unless one wants to spend a bunch of $$, I'm going to try and get it going again. 

I'll report back after my parts arrive.


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

In a pinch, you could probably cannibalize parts from another Tecumseh LH358. They're probably not as common as the 8hp Snow King, the 318cc version. I'm guessing this is maybe a 10hp? But apparently the single-shaft and dual-shaft machines are basically the same, with the exception of the camshaft, and the camshaft cover. So if it came to that, maybe any 10hp flathead Snow King engine could be used.


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## Lottstodo (Feb 16, 2018)

I love how OPINIONS for LCT engines are being based off of tecumseh old style engines.. LCT bought the company out, however was already in buisness building there own engines way before that happened. tecs NEVER had anything close to a LCT engine. So may I ask what engine you recommend for new replacement , Briggs, built in china , predator built in china, chonda built in china , kohler built in china, as is LCT built in china and many others.
Of all the engines listed above in total we have about 200 in service in many different applications, and of them where we have had problem matic conditions that liked to tear up engines, we have found that LCTs held up great where others failed, I am also talking about some applications that are used daily and in some 24/7 where field service takes place.
To be honest if someone brings me a piece of equipment with a Briggs and they say I want it replaced with a briggs, I tell them to take it else where , however that is my personal opinion of briggs engines, and I would not tell someone to stay away from brand X just because I did not like it, unless we have found and proven a fatal flaw in a engine series.


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

We have had too many LCT engine failures within 10 hours or less, engine hours. At best, we only get about 300 engine hours out of the LCT's. Our engine fleet are run industrial and commercially.
Your "Old" Tecumseh engines were built around the time Tecumseh went out of business, so that would actually be their "Newer" models, say around 15-20 years old. The ones back in the early 70's along with the "New" models were unreliable, anyone with a lot of experience knows that.
The LCT engines are not worth fixing, their "low price" and difficulty of getting quality parts that fit and work, and even hold up in moderate use. We have sent out many metal specimens to have analyzed, and the results came back as inferior quality materials used in manufacture of the product.
Yes it is a shame all of our American manufacturing companies decided to make their products "overseas" to "save a buck" and line their own pockets with all of the profits and screw the american consumer, and the former employees that used to work for the companies. It was all about the "mighty dollar" for themselves and "heck" with anyone else.
Our engine fleets have on the average 5,000 to 10,000 engine hours on them. We use the Honda "GX" series engine made in America. Stay away from the ones made in China, they are built differently, different parts, different machine clearances, and much poorer quality raw materials used in manufacturing.
Most of our fleet of 400 plus GX engines were built back in the mid 90's. Sometimes we get one that breaks a valve stem or wears out a set of piston rings. 
At least we can replace a valve on a hot engine and have it up and running again within a half hours time.
These engines are generally run 24/7 most times or a minimum 2000 hrs yearly, to give an idea of the reliability that our "Jobbers" expect out of an engine.
Now if you would get the Honda "GX" engine, check the serial number on it and make sure the 3rd digit is a "G" and NOT a "C" stamped into it.
Briggs finally realized the mistake they made by closing up their manufacturing facilities in the U.S. and moving manufacturing to China to "Save a Buck" and line the CEO's pocket with profits, and their quality took a nose dive.
Briggs copied the Honda "GX" engine for their new "Intek" engine, with much less quality. Remember, China has NO copyright laws like here in the U.S., so they can get away with that.
As of this time Briggs is in the process of moving their manufacturing back to the U.S., but it may take 5 to 10 years for them to become established again.
Right now our country is in a bind because we have almost no "Skilled Trade" workers left anymore. Most of the "Old Timers" are gone and we don't have the people to teach the younger crowd the skilled trades used in manufacturing anymore. All of the young people only know how to use a computer, and nothing else. If they can't "Click their Keys" or "Pick their Nose" with their finger tips, they are at a total loss with everything, and they don't want to get their hands dirty in a manufacturing shop.
If you are looking for another "good" old time engine that was built to last, I would suggest an old Gravely "L" model engine. We also have a fleet of those that are around 50+ years old with over 50,000 hours on the clock.
I don't mean to scare people away from LCT engines, some people "Live by them", but we have had nothing but problems with them and have filled dumpsters full of them to send to the scrap yard because out of the hundreds of them, none has held up at all like the older Honda GX and other old Kohler's, Onan's, Wisconsin's, Gravely's and the old cast iron Briggs motors.


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

gsnod said:


> Thanks Much ST1100A and RedOctobyr for your wise and experienced advice. I'm gonna put two new valves in it and lapp them in. I'll need to figure out what to do about that exhaust guide that is rising up from the breather area. Since this is a double shaft ENGINE, and those are not too available, unless one wants to spend a bunch of $$, I'm going to try and get it going again.
> 
> I'll report back after my parts arrive.


When you put the new valves in, check the clearance first before you put the head back on it. You may have to grind the stems down a little bit to get the desired clearance between the valve and lifter, otherwise they will be too "Tight" and will leak, causing lack of compression and hard starting and power loss, especially when the engine is hot.
Good luck with it and let us know how you make out with it.
Those double shaft engines are hard to find parts for now-days, especially the camshaft and rear engine cover.


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

Wow, those are impressive quantities of engines, and run times. ST1100A, what are those engines doing?


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## GustoGuy (Nov 19, 2012)

The patent on Honda Engines has expired and anyone can build nearly an exact copy as long as you change something slightly such as bore size a little bit. Loncin builds the Hemi version of the Predator 212cc and Rato builds the non Hemi 212cc. Both have proven themselves to be reliable engines and parts are easily obtainable for both engines including superior billet rods and flywheels and racing pistons and carburetors. A stage 2 Predator 212cc will put out about 13hp.


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

GustoGuy said:


> The patent on Honda Engines has expired and anyone can build nearly an exact copy as long as you change something slightly such as bore size a little bit. Loncin builds the Hemi version of the Predator 212cc and Rato builds the non Hemi 212cc. Both have proven themselves to be reliable engines and parts are easily obtainable for both engines including superior billet rods and flywheels and racing pistons and carburetors. A stage 2 Predator 212cc will put out about 13hp.


Honda still holds the patents on those engines, they kept renewing them because they still make those engines, they were smart enough to never let it expire.
The only Nations that honor the U.S. patents are some of the N.A.T.O. nations whom the US gives lots of money to and supports. Not all countries honor the U.S. Copyright/Patent laws, they are not legally obligated to do so.
I remember working for Honda when a lot of that was going on and how Honda had to fight it, and what they could and could not do about it.
Honda realized a little bit too late the mistake they made by giving China a lot of their technology and designs to make their products there. They didn't think China was going to "Steal" all of their designs and make them for themselves to sell to the world under the Honda name and keep all of the profits the way they did. Honda was pretty upset that it happened, I remember that all to well.
Years ago when China first started copying the Honda engines and were selling them in the U.S. the United States began to Boycott them and wouldn't let them into the country unless they took the Honda name off of them and made some changes, basically like changing the paint colors on them so as not to confuse a buyer into thinking they were buying an official Honda engine at 1/4 the cost. That was the only thing the US could do about that because the companies making them did not have to abide by Copyright laws in this country.
Japan and Canada are some of the few Nations in the world who honor the US Copyright Patents, most all other countries in the world do not honor them.
Honda has been making race engines for decades now, but they are hard to get your hands on, if you have an inside way with HRC you can get your hands on them.
Those little engines, Honda and the other companies listed are surprising when they rev out at over 12,000 RPM's. The Honda race engines held up very well but the cost on them was 100 times more expensive than your Loncin and Predator parts. Those expensive prices did not help Honda and may run them into the ground by charging so much, but the Professional Teams can afford them, the common people can't.


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

RedOctobyr said:


> Wow, those are impressive quantities of engines, and run times. ST1100A, what are those engines doing?


Many of the engines are used for emergency back up uses, like running pumps and generators in installations that cannot have any downtime waiting for electrical power to be restored. A lot of those units are running 24/7 for months on end before they are shut down. A lot of times they are under full load most of the time with short breaks in between. 
Others are used for various industrial and commercial applications, mining and agriculture, field use and just about anything you could think of.
When dealing with "Old Timers", they will not settle for anything less, and I don't blame them, they expect quality and longevity, the way things were built back in the "Old Days".
Some power-plants are used in Research and Development, testing lubricants and vital engine components to find weaknesses in them so they can be improved.
You would be surprised at some of the "Old Timers" who are still up on their feet and running these things every day, working their butts off, unlike most lazy kids today who have to take breaks constantly.


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## gsnod (Sep 2, 2013)

Received new valves yesterday and lapped them into the engine today. Put it all together, and it runs well! Thanks everyone for your good ideas.


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

Congrats, good job, good luck with it, hope it works well for you next winter.


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

That's awesome, congrats! Glad it was a manageable fix.


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## GustoGuy (Nov 19, 2012)

ST1100A said:


> Honda still holds the patents on those engines, they kept renewing them because they still make those engines, they were smart enough to never let it expire.
> The only Nations that honor the U.S. patents are some of the N.A.T.O. nations whom the US gives lots of money to and supports. Not all countries honor the U.S. Copyright/Patent laws, they are not legally obligated to do so.
> I remember working for Honda when a lot of that was going on and how Honda had to fight it, and what they could and could not do about it.
> Honda realized a little bit too late the mistake they made by giving China a lot of their technology and designs to make their products there. They didn't think China was going to "Steal" all of their designs and make them for themselves to sell to the world under the Honda name and keep all of the profits the way they did. Honda was pretty upset that it happened, I remember that all to well.
> ...


I am building a stage 2 Predator non Hemi 212cc and I am putting in an ARC billet Rod and Flywheel. It is going into a 1972 Rupp Roadster 2 with triple the original HP the the original Tecumseh HS40 could have made spinning at over twice the rpm that the Tecumseh would have run at.


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

GustoGuy said:


> I am building a stage 2 Predator non Hemi 212cc and I am putting in an ARC billet Rod and Flywheel. It is going into a 1972 Rupp Roadster 2 with triple the original HP the the original Tecumseh HS40 could have made spinning at over twice the rpm that the Tecumseh would have run at.


You will have to post some pictures of it when you get it done. I remember the Roadster 2's with the headlights and lighting to make them road worthy, they had the larger spoked wheels on them. The early "enduro" type mini-bike. You don't see many of those old Rupps around anymore. They were tons of fun back then.
I remember back in the days when we all had the "Black Widow" mini-bikes. Those things were fast for a mini-bike. The Tec engine was tricked out back in that time, they ran fast with the straight pipe and Del Orto carb, lots of fun, suspension and the torque converter drive on a little mini-bike. The used to blow up as fast as they ran, but we didn't care.
Those old Rupp mini-bikes are worth money now, especially if they are original.
Good luck with it and let us know how it comes together when you get it finished.


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## GustoGuy (Nov 19, 2012)

ST1100A said:


> You will have to post some pictures of it when you get it done. I remember the Roadster 2's with the headlights and lighting to make them road worthy, they had the larger spoked wheels on them. The early "enduro" type mini-bike. You don't see many of those old Rupps around anymore. They were tons of fun back then.
> I remember back in the days when we all had the "Black Widow" mini-bikes. Those things were fast for a mini-bike. The Tec engine was tricked out back in that time, they ran fast with the straight pipe and Del Orto carb, lots of fun, suspension and the torque converter drive on a little mini-bike. The used to blow up as fast as they ran, but we didn't care.
> Those old Rupp mini-bikes are worth money now, especially if they are original.
> Good luck with it and let us know how it comes together when you get it finished.


With the Del Orto carburetors, the HS40's in the Black Widows were essentially ungoverned and that is why they often had con rod failures. Even if you put all the go-fast parts on an HS40 you will barely beat a stock Predator 212cc but put on a low restriction intake and exhaust on a stock Predator 212cc with some richer jetting and the Predator will blow away the HS40 even without touching the innards of the Predator 212cc. The OHV design just moves so much more air than the valve in block L head flathead engine. A Stage 4 Predator 212cc with a high lift camshaft and a Mukuni carburetor will put out 20hp and is capable of 8000rpms. Back in the day, the BlackWidow was a nice bike and a good condition legitimate Blackwidow meaning not a converted Rupp Roadster 2 with the rare 28 spoke wheels will fetch a pretty penny today. Here is a picture of the Rupp roller I bought that I am going to turn into a Predator powered resto-mod which will be tons faster than the original BlackWidows ever were. Several people on Oldminibikes.com have built resto-mod Rupps with stage 2 or better Predator 212cc engines and they are capable of over 60mph top speeds.


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## foggysail (Feb 21, 2015)

OK, OK....a fine job but no way would I go though all that work to restore a small HP engine. At a minimum I would have taken a visit to Harbor Freight for a new engine. If no solution, my next trip with it ........well, I think you know where that would be. My comments have zilch to do with all the fine suggestions be those who helped along with gsnod’s perseverance.


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

GustoGuy said:


> With the Del Orto carburetors, the HS40's in the Black Widows were essentially ungoverned and that is why they often had con rod failures. Even if you put all the go-fast parts on an HS40 you will barely beat a stock Predator 212cc but put on a low restriction intake and exhaust on a stock Predator 212cc with some richer jetting and the Predator will blow away the HS40 even without touching the innards of the Predator 212cc. The OHV design just moves so much more air than the valve in block L head flathead engine. A Stage 4 Predator 212cc with a high lift camshaft and a Mukuni carburetor will put out 20hp and is capable of 8000rpms. Back in the day, the BlackWidow was a nice bike and a good condition legitimate Blackwidow meaning not a converted Rupp Roadster 2 with the rare 28 spoke wheels will fetch a pretty penny today. Here is a picture of the Rupp roller I bought that I am going to turn into a Predator powered resto-mod which will be tons faster than the original BlackWidows ever were. Several people on Oldminibikes.com have built resto-mod Rupps with stage 2 or better Predator 212cc engines and they are capable of over 60mph top speeds.


Nice! Brings back a lot of old memories. They were fun days back then.
Yes those stock OHV's would blow away those modified L heads. 
Keep up the good restoration on that thing.


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## GustoGuy (Nov 19, 2012)

ST1100A said:


> You will have to post some pictures of it when you get it done. I remember the Roadster 2's with the headlights and lighting to make them road worthy, they had the larger spoked wheels on them. The early "enduro" type mini-bike. You don't see many of those old Rupps around anymore. They were tons of fun back then.
> I remember back in the days when we all had the "Black Widow" mini-bikes. Those things were fast for a mini-bike. The Tec engine was tricked out back in that time, they ran fast with the straight pipe and Del Orto carb, lots of fun, suspension and the torque converter drive on a little mini-bike. The used to blow up as fast as they ran, but we didn't care.
> Those old Rupp mini-bikes are worth money now, especially if they are original.
> Good luck with it and let us know how it comes together when you get it finished.


Here is my resto-mod restored Rupp Roadster 2 as promised. It is my masterpiece restoration and a lot more complicated than any of my snowblower restorations. Plus I used a 2K automotive grade clearcoat paint which is really shiny and looks better than new because in 1971 they did not have 2K modern clearcoat paints.


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## Michele (Nov 17, 2015)

GustoGuy said:


> Here is my resto-mod restored Rupp Roadster 2 as promised. It is my masterpiece restoration and a lot more complicated than any of my snowblower restorations. Plus I used a 2K automotive grade clearcoat paint which is really shiny and looks better than new because in 1971 they did not have 2K modern clearcoat paints.
> 
> 
> View attachment 158499


Got my attention, that little bike is sweet


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