# HS622 - Dropped Intake Valve into Piston Chamber



## Rooskie (Feb 12, 2015)

Was in the process of installing new intake valve spring retainer to replace one that broke in two.
After putting the new keeper on, I could see the intake valve was not closing fully.
I worked it in and out while putting oil down by the stem, but it continued not closing tight.
I removed the retainer and spring. The valve was pretty firmly stuck closed.
I got it loose and was again oiling and working up and down holding the end of the valve with pliers.
The odd thing was, in one spot I could work the valve up and down freely, clearly hearing the valve 'pop' when seating.
But if I rotated the valve 60 degrees in either direction, it would stick badly.
Figuring I had a carbon problem, I tried to use the methods shown on YouTube, even chucking the valve stem into a drill.
Nothing seemed to help, was getting worse.
I hooked the hemostats up to move closer and get more travel. That was going along OK until -snap-! The end of the valve snapped out of the stats and about 1/4" out of reach inside the valve guide.
I just had an idea: I'll get the air compressor going and blow air into the spark plug hole. Maybe that will push it back. maybe not, as the valve was on the sticky side of the rotation when it was lost.
But that may not work.
Does anyone have any experience with this dilemma?


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

Rotate the engine over by hand to see if the piston pushed the valve back up high enough so you can grab it.
You might end up taking the head off by the problems you described.
You may have to remove the valve and clean the stem or replace it and check the valve guide, it may need to be 'Reamed' so the valve does not stick like you described.
Air pressure wont push the valve back up if it is opened at all, it will leak through the port.
Some of those engines used a '2 piece welded' valve where the end is welded to the stem and they do break. I replaced a few of them already, but the head is very easy to remove, I've done that already without replacing any gaskets and the engine has been running daily for the past couple of years now without a problem.
You might want to replace the valve to be safe, and ream the guide. You don't want the valve to stick at all or it will eventually seize, plus the wear, it can leak oil and the engine will smoke.


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## JLawrence08648 (Jan 15, 2017)

Put rope in to the spark plug hole then turn the flywheel to move the piston up, that may be enough to as ST1100A suggested, put a slim parts magnet down the hole, put a rare earth magnet over the hole as they are very strong.


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## tabora (Mar 1, 2017)

Rooskie said:


> Does anyone have any experience with this dilemma?





ST1100A said:


> Rotate the engine over by hand to see if the piston pushed the valve back up high enough so you can grab it.


Yup. Do what @ST1100A said and hopefully the piston will lift the valve right back up where you can grab it. Then, do the rope trick to help while you finish the job:

The *Rope Trick* helps keep the valves closed while you're working and keeps them from falling into the cylinder.

*Fill Some of the Space Above the Piston*
With the piston low in the cylinder, use rope made of something that won't shed any fibers. Feed the rope into the cylinder through the sparkplug hole. Continue to feed the rope into the cylinder, loosely filling as much of the cylinder as possible.

*Rotate the Engine *
Rotate the engine by hand until you feel resistance (the rope pressed between the piston and valves). If you have a broken valve spring and the valve does not close completely keep some upward pressure on the valve so the rope does not get caught between the valve and seat.

*The Valves Will Be Held in Place by the Rope*
Use a valve spring compressor (if necessary) to compress the valve spring, remove the keepers (a small magnetic pickup will help) and the spring. Complete whatever repairs are needed.

*Removing the Rope*
Rotate the engine in the opposite direction, relieving the pressure between the rope and valves, remove the rope, and you are done.


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## Rooskie (Feb 12, 2015)

JLawrence08648 said:


> Put rope in to the spark plug hole then turn the flywheel to move the piston up, that may be enough to as ST1100A suggested, put a slim parts magnet down the hole, put a rare earth magnet over the hole as they are very strong.


I originally brought the engine to TDC before I did anything, as I figured I'd check valve clearance. So it's already at TDC.
The reason I didn't do the rope trick was I needed to have travel to move the sticking valve in and out to try and free it up.
I used the hemostats because they have locking jaws and as long as I had the jaws locked, that valve wasn't going anywhere....
It is a 22 year old engine and all hints are poor baby has seen a hard life.
After removing the crankcase breather tube and letting it hang loose, as suggested, it appears the oil use problem has now stopped.
Every peccadillo the 622 has had has worked itself out, except for that no-load surging issue, thanks to the help I've received on this site.
Thanks to all, but I'm wondering about a Predator engine about now.


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## Big Ed (Feb 10, 2013)

N


tabora said:


> Yup. Do what @ST1100A said and hopefully the piston will lift the valve right back up where you can grab it. Then, do the rope trick to help while you finish the job:
> 
> The *Rope Trick* helps keep the valves closed while you're working and keeps them from falling into the cylinder.
> 
> ...


I never heard of the rope trick.
What, did you teach small engine repair at one time?  
Any type of rope? Or does one work better than the other?


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## Rooskie (Feb 12, 2015)

Has anyone seen this??? Any experiences?
One can get the whole cylinder head, with new valves, springs, push-rods, absolutely complete, for $30.00!





Amazon.com : NAVARME Cylinder Head W/Cover for Honda GX160 Engine Lawnmower Part : Garden & Outdoor


Amazon.com : NAVARME Cylinder Head W/Cover for Honda GX160 Engine Lawnmower Part : Garden & Outdoor



www.google.com


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## Big Ed (Feb 10, 2013)

I wonder if you get the valves?
I see the listing as for only the head and cover.
Though the pictures show valves.


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## 140278 (Aug 27, 2020)

it is with the valves ed assembled head 

10 bucks more for the gasket set


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## Marty013 (Mar 14, 2014)

i wonder if teh valve might not have a tiny kink to it?? asides from the aforementionned carbon buildup..the only other issue i can think of that could cause a retainer to get lost.. is if the valve itself has a slight bend to it.. maybe caused by buildup which prevented it from closing right once too many.. id feel better taking the valve out and checking for true before continuing with it


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## drmerdp (Feb 9, 2014)

I use compressed air to hold the valves closed while doing valve springs. But the rope trick is a nice easy tried and true method. Either works in small engines and cars/trucks.

I’ve seen a video of a predator 212 on a 622. It should bolt up no problem if you choose to go that route.


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## tabora (Mar 1, 2017)

Big Ed said:


> Any type of rope? Or does one work better than the other?


I prefer soft braided nylon... 


tabora said:


> use rope made of something that won't shed any fibers.


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## JLawrence08648 (Jan 15, 2017)

The rope trick has been around for 100 years (am I showing my age?) for valves when changing things and to stop the piston from moving up and down to remove the nut on the flywheel.


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## Rooskie (Feb 12, 2015)

Big Ed said:


> I wonder if you get the valves?
> I see the listing as for only the head and cover.
> Though the pictures show valves.


According to the Q & A for the item, yes, includes the valves. You can't buy both valves OEM for that money!


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## Rooskie (Feb 12, 2015)

drmerdp said:


> I use compressed air to hold the valves closed while doing valve springs. But the rope trick is a nice easy tried and true method. Either works in small engines and cars/trucks.
> 
> I’ve seen a video of a predator 212 on a 622. It should bolt up no problem if you choose to go that route.


You're right on the air to hold the valves in, but I sorta doubt I'm going to get it to blow back in. Have to wait till tomorrow to work on it again.

Not only the 212, as I understand. The next size up Predator should fit, as well, but the 622 seems to have enough power as it is, so I figure why stress all the rest of the machine?

I'm going to cut to the chase and remove the head, if for nothing else but to get a look to see what I have in there. I chased the spark plug threads and now the plug wobbles all the way into the head until it seats.... 

Here's a head for $41, all gaskets included, too.
For prices like that, it's hard to justify re-working an old one.
Opinions?








Amazon.com : Everest Brand Cylinder Head Kit for Honda GX160 5.5HP Rockers Gasket Springs Valves : Patio, Lawn & Garden


Amazon.com : Everest Brand Cylinder Head Kit for Honda GX160 5.5HP Rockers Gasket Springs Valves : Patio, Lawn & Garden



www.amazon.com


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## Joel_Kuszynski (Dec 4, 2020)

I’d pull the head and inspect everything. If the valve is not broken I’d lap it into place, reinstall the head (w/new head gasket) and adjust the valves. 

While I’ve never pulled a head on a Honda I’ve read the shop manual and it should not be difficult. 


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## Rooskie (Feb 12, 2015)

Joel_Kuszynski said:


> I’d pull the head and inspect everything. If the valve is not broken I’d lap it into place, reinstall the head (w/new head gasket) and adjust the valves.
> 
> While I’ve never pulled a head on a Honda I’ve read the shop manual and it should not be difficult.
> 
> ...


That's my preferred course of action, but always try to look ahead for possible pitfalls.
I'll hit the valves with magnetic particle inspection and maybe even shoot some ultrasound through it.


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## JnC (Feb 21, 2014)

Working on a GX240 as we speak with no compression when I got it. Oil was murky indicating that water had been in the oil for a while. I intended on rebuilding the motor any way when I took the head off you could tell that the moisture in the oil had caused the oil to not lubricate the valves properly, the exhaust valve had been stuck open. A bit of penetrating fluid got it to be free and out. Cleaning the guide and the valve did the trick and now its free to move. 

You may be able to get the exhaust out using one of these tricks but my advice would be to just take the head off, clean everything, check the valve, valve seat and guide for wiggle and put the machine back together. At least this way you'd have peace of mind that everything is thoroughly fixed rather than enough to get you till it causes an issue again.


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## 140278 (Aug 27, 2020)

with a bad plug thread you would be better off with a new head at that price, do it right one time or pay the price on a redo/comeback


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## 3repete (Nov 12, 2017)

JnC said:


> Working on a GX240 as we speak with no compression when I got it. Oil was murky indicating that water had been in the oil for a while. I intended on rebuilding the motor any way when I took the head off you could tell that the moisture in the oil had caused the oil to not lubricate the valves properly, the exhaust valve had been stuck open. A bit of penetrating fluid got it to be free and out. Cleaning the guide and the valve did the trick and now its free to move.
> 
> You may be able to get the exhaust out using one of these tricks but my advice would be to just take the head off, clean everything, check the valve, valve seat and guide for wiggle and put the machine back together. At least this way you'd have peace of mind that everything is thoroughly fixed rather than enough to get you till it causes an issue again.


Thank you for saying "peace of mind". I cringe every time I read some dope posting "piece of mine".


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## orangputeh (Nov 24, 2016)

I would look at everest parts llc on amz and ebay. they have excellent aftermarket parts for hondas. have used them many times. super fast shipping. 

they have heads and everything.got a gx240 rebuild kit for really cheap. had everything i needed. piston, rings, rod , gaskets , everything.


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## Rooskie (Feb 12, 2015)

Woke up this morning with a new thought:

$7 spent so far to replace the broken valve spring retainer.

$50 for a complete new head. Then the piston rings pop on the 22 yr. old engine due to the increased pressure brand new valves and seats put on the old rings....and on and on as each part fails and gets replaced and the next subsequent assembly down the line eventually fails....

Or for $99 get a brand new everything in a brand new Predator motor....

As I am not trying to spend any more money on it, I'm thinking I'll remove, clean and inspect what currently exists before pulling out my wallet.
But what would you do in my shoes?


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## Preacherman (Dec 20, 2020)

I too looked a cost to repair the Tec motor and it’s a no brainer to go with Predator. I MO.


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## JLawrence08648 (Jan 15, 2017)

Better engine, more power, easier starting, more life left in to it.


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## Rooskie (Feb 12, 2015)

Preacherman said:


> I too looked a cost to repair the Tec motor and it’s a no brainer to go with Predator. I MO.


I'm referring to the Honda HS622 in this instance. 
I am sticking with the Tecumseh on my Ariens no matter what happens to that motor.
The unit is vintage and all original and I'm going to keep it concours. 
I'd put a predator on an Ariens if I felt frankensteinian.
I would put a Predator on the Honda and paint it to match the Honda color scheme if I was convinced I am going to keep it. 
I imagine an Honda HS622 would sell for more with the original Honda motor on it, as opposed to a Predator, as long as the motor ran and didn't smoke.
Variables, variables.


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## Rooskie (Feb 12, 2015)

JLawrence08648 said:


> Better engine, more power, easier starting, more life left in to it.


The Predator is a better engine that a real Honda motor?
Never heard that before.
Makes you wonder how China makes them so cheap.


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## JLawrence08648 (Jan 15, 2017)

Preacherman said:


> I too looked a cost to repair the Tec motor and it’s a no brainer to go with Predator. I MO.





Rooskie said:


> The Predator is a better engine that a real Honda motor?
> Never heard that before.
> Makes you wonder how China makes them so cheap.


No, yes and no.

Kawasaki makes the best engine, then the higher horsepower Hondas. The lower horsepower, lower end Hondas, the GC? are not as good as the GX. I don't know how the Chinese engines compare to the lower end Hondas. 

I had thought this morphed in to a Tecumseh engine. That's what I was comparing to.


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## Rooskie (Feb 12, 2015)

JLawrence08648 said:


> No, yes and no.
> 
> Kawasaki makes the best engine, then the higher horsepower Hondas. The lower horsepower, lower end Hondas, the GC? are not as good as the GX. I don't know how the Chinese engines compare to the lower end Hondas.
> 
> I had thought this morphed in to a Tecumseh engine. That's what I was comparing to.


If I change my avatar to the machine I'm posting about, all the avatars change on all my posts, I note.
Otherwise, I'd say look at the avatar!


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## JLawrence08648 (Jan 15, 2017)

The post before mine was Tec


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## Rooskie (Feb 12, 2015)

JLawrence08648 said:


> The post before mine was Tec


Yes. Preacherman and I have essentially identical Ariens classics and are suffering through a similar malady on the Ariens front.
The HS622 is my dabbling in the rarefied air of Snowblower Honda.
I also have a Honda 2-speed self-propelled lawnmower with the double blades, blade clutch and Rexolite deck.
My first venture into Honda.
My greatest pleasure I have in the Honda's is I got them cheap and am slowly restoring them to health.


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## 140278 (Aug 27, 2020)

Rooskie said:


> .
> Makes you wonder how China makes them so cheap.


cheap labor,


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## groomerz (Feb 7, 2015)

I’d get the predator and swap the red tins and recoil over to the predator and you have a Red chonda 


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## db9938 (Nov 17, 2013)

It is a hard choice to make. We all try to make this hobby as cheap as we can, and yet still maintain reliability.


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## Rooskie (Feb 12, 2015)

db9938 said:


> It is a hard choice to make. We all try to make this hobby as cheap as we can, and yet still maintain reliability.


I'm going to start with a good look at the head. If it is worn past the tolerances listed for the motor, I'll go ahead and get the predator on the thought that if the head is worn past specs, then it's a fair bet the rest of the motor is in similar condition. I still haven't got the head off yet, but I have a path going forward. Thanks to all who helped in my deliberations.
Good idea about changing the covers, groomerz. I'll do that.


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## Rooskie (Feb 12, 2015)

UPDATE: Turns out when the intake valve spring retainer failed, the valve dropped and got hit by the piston, noticeably bending the valve. (Pics to follow). The exhaust valve stem measured well within spec. There appears to be some carbon, but nowhere near as bad as expected.


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## Rooskie (Feb 12, 2015)

After due consideration, I ordered a gasket set, an OEM intake valve and a new set of OEM valve springs. The old ones were out of specification. And an air filter.


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## 140278 (Aug 27, 2020)

sadly it happens a lot. valved drops and contacts the piston . lucky end a single valve isn't to expensive replace it, lap the new one in and down the road


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## orangputeh (Nov 24, 2016)

Rooskie said:


> Woke up this morning with a new thought:
> 
> $7 spent so far to replace the broken valve spring retainer.
> 
> ...


Not sure you can use a predator with a 622. this Honda engine is married to the tranny. I would have to dig out my 622 out of the snow ( we got another 6 inches last night ) to have a look see. Its under a tarp and snow. 

I never bought a shop manual for the 622 as we dont have many around here. 

I would just rebuild your current engine. Or if you love 622's so much save it as a parts machine.


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## Rooskie (Feb 12, 2015)

captchas said:


> sadly it happens a lot. valved drops and contacts the piston . lucky end a single valve isn't to expensive replace it, lap the new one in and down the road


$8 for an OEM Honda Intake Valve, $10 for OEM Honda Springs. Free Shipping. So I got off easy this time.



orangputeh said:


> Not sure you can use a predator with a 622.
> 
> I never bought a shop manual for the 622 as we dont have many around here.
> 
> Or if you love 622's so much save it as a parts machine.


First appearances are that a GX160 will bolt on, but that has been abandoned as a option seeing the great condition of the piston walls on the current motor. (See pics) Everything looks good, and I hope new valve springs will take care of the root-cause of the failure. Both springs were out of spec by quite a bit.
I'd consider the purchase of another 622 if the price were as good as I paid for this one.
I'd buy another Ariens man-killer just like the one I have, but for less than I paid for this one. Parts and backup.


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## 140278 (Aug 27, 2020)

plus a gasket kit , maybe 50 total 

there not much clearance in new motors between the open valve and piston, some loose a 1/8 of a inch and bang


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

While you are in it, if it is older, might consider doing rings as well - another pretty cheap part, and then you won't have to worry about it down the road. If no smoke and good compression, likely not needed though . . .


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## Rooskie (Feb 12, 2015)

captchas said:


> plus a gasket kit , maybe 50 total
> 
> there not much clearance in new motors between the open valve and piston, some loose a 1/8 of a inch and bang


I found a gasket kit for 4.99, non OEM.


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## Rooskie (Feb 12, 2015)

tadawson said:


> While you are in it, if it is older, might consider doing rings as well - another pretty cheap part, and then you won't have to worry about it down the road. If no smoke and good compression, likely not needed though . . .


The repair was in the mix, but it doesn't smoke and look at that piston wall! Smooth as a baby's buttocks.
If it had needed it, a Predator was going in.


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## 140278 (Aug 27, 2020)

i wouldn't touch the low end either not with how clean that bore looks ,
clean the block and head of old gasket blow out around the piston to remove anything that fell in from cleaning , slap it back together and down the road


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## Rooskie (Feb 12, 2015)

captchas said:


> i wouldn't touch the low end either not with how clean that bore looks ,
> clean the block and head of old gasket blow out around the piston to remove anything that fell in from cleaning , slap it back together, and down the road


You know how I am about oil levels. 
Everything except the valve shipped out yesterday.


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

A GXV140 I have in my mower was smoking like a tractor, and the bore looked perfect, and measured within new service specs as well . . . Honda rings have been pretty soft over the years, which is why I mentioned it. The GXV took a very light hone and rings, and like new again . . . ?


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## Rooskie (Feb 12, 2015)

tadawson said:


> A GXV140 I have in my mower was smoking like a tractor, and the bore looked perfect, and measured within new service specs as well . . . Honda rings have been pretty soft over the years, which is why I mentioned it. The GXV took a very light hone and rings, and like new again . . . ?


I did not check the wall specs. I will before reassembly, for sure. Thanks for the reminder!


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