# Ariens 921030 deluxe 28. Runs but then dies



## KC Snow 28 (Jan 4, 2014)

Hello. I have a one year old purchased new and pulled it out of storage today to be sure all is well. I stored it after maybe 5 times of use last winter. I changed the oil twice and did the proper run in, set up/ start and operating steps for the first few hours and then used it flawlessly and really enjoy this machine. Let me tell you it moves some snow and then some. 

I run sea foam and stored it full of fuel and turn the fuel switch to the off position. On the first pull it ran up just fine and throttled up and reduced the choke. All seemed well when at high idle, after a few minutes, it dies. After happening twice, I emptied the fuel and replace with new fuel that is less than a week old. I am getting the same results as before and after a few minutes, the machine dies. 

The engine is the ariens AX254 and seems to best starving for fuel or air. Doubtful it is air since there isn't an air cleaner on these. It almost seems that the engine runs for the same amount of time every time I start it and then dies. My fuel valve is open and appears to have good flow although not really sure how to confirm this. 


Any insight here is appreciated.

Also to pass along the fluid film spray that used on the chute is the best in the world. No snow ever sticks and keeps all lubed up just fine


Can some one also comment om the gear lube for the auger? The Manuel show "high temp" What is everyone using?

Thanks for help.


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## Grunt (Nov 11, 2013)

I'm not familiar with this engine, but, does it have a low oil cut off on it? It may be as simple as your oil being a little low.


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## KC Snow 28 (Jan 4, 2014)

Thanks. I don't and can't see one if it does. The level is measuring fine and thanks for the tip. I'll let things settle over night and check in the morning.


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## Grunt (Nov 11, 2013)

Another thought, try loosening the gas cap and see if the problem goes away. Could be the vent is plugged up.


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## KC Snow 28 (Jan 4, 2014)

Thanks for the added tip. Never would have thought of that one 

Results soon.


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## Wildcat_1 (Nov 20, 2014)

I am experiencing a similar issue but on a Troy Bilt, interested in hearing if any of the suggestions above worked for you.

Thanks


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## KC Snow 28 (Jan 4, 2014)

Update : I tried the gas cap to see if the vent is plugged and same result. Talked with my dealer that I purchased it from and he said more than likely it is a fuel problem. As I suspected, the fuel bowl has a run time of a few minutes and the carb needs attention. I put the sea foam and stabil in so he said to bring it in. Reason number 1001 to buy from a dealer than a box store. I pick it up in a few days.


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## Wildcat_1 (Nov 20, 2014)

Let us know what they found/replaced when you get it back, thanks !

BTW so were you saying you used stabilizer and this still had an issue ? If so not sure what we, consumers should/could be doing more to ensure these issues don't happen.

Thanks



KC Snow 28 said:


> Update : I tried the gas cap to see if the vent is plugged and same result. Talked with my dealer that I purchased it from and he said more than likely it is a fuel problem. As I suspected, the fuel bowl has a run time of a few minutes and the carb needs attention. I put the sea foam and stabil in so he said to bring it in. Reason number 1001 to buy from a dealer than a box store. I pick it up in a few days.


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## pwm (Jun 12, 2014)

I'm astonished as to why an almost new machine which was properly stored and maintained should fail to run properly after only one year. Now I'm worried. I just bought a new blower with the Powermore 420cc on it. Are these new motors so sensitive to fuel storage that they gum up after one season? What gives? I never did anything with my old Tecumseh 10hp for storage. I just left whatever fuel was in it until the next winter and it always just started every winter season and ran like a champ for almost 40 years and it's still running fine. 

Now I'm wondering if instead of draining fuel and running the carb dry, it might be better to just leave non-ethanol stabilized 91 octane in the tank and start the motor every 2 or 3 weeks during the summer then start the winter with fresh fuel. There would be no unpleasant surprises that way.


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## sscotsman (Dec 8, 2010)

pwm said:


> I'm astonished as to why an almost new machine which was properly stored and maintained should fail to run properly after only one year. Now I'm worried. I just bought a new blower with the Powermore 420cc on it. Are these new motors so sensitive to fuel storage that they gum up after one season? What gives?


It's not the machines, its the 10% ethanol in the gas..
the ethanol gas is horrible stuff for small gas engines, gunks them up like crazy..its just really low quality gas.

I was leaving gas in my snowblower all summer..im now draining it dry every Spring..I just bought two classic Ariens yesterday, (photos coming soon!) One had a complete engine overhaul and the guy who did the work has only used non-ethanol gas in it since rebuilding..Im going to continue using only non-ethanol gas in it! For awhile, we had no non-ethanol gas available at all in Western NY, but now there are a few places selling it..
Its a little more expensive, but worth it IMO..(I will still use sea-foam, even in the non-ethanol gas..or if you like Stabil, still add that, just to be safe.)

Look for non-ethanol gas near you:

Ethanol-free gas stations in the U.S. and Canada

Scot


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## KC Snow 28 (Jan 4, 2014)

Wildcat_1 said:


> Let us know what they found/replaced when you get it back, thanks !
> 
> BTW so were you saying you used stabilizer and this still had an issue ? If so not sure what we, consumers should/could be doing more to ensure these issues don't happen.
> 
> Thanks




Yes sounds strange, I used all the additives and did everything as I do for everything I'm the garage to store engines and it seems that the fuel caused the issue. My dealer said they battle a lot of these issues and he will have it running again like the ape it is very soon. Will update on specifics too


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## KC Snow 28 (Jan 4, 2014)

I am beginning to think more and more it truly was a fuel thing.


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## KC Snow 28 (Jan 4, 2014)

pwm said:


> I'm astonished as to why an almost new machine which was properly stored and maintained should fail to run properly after only one year. Now I'm worried. I just bought a new blower with the Powermore 420cc on it. Are these new motors so sensitive to fuel storage that they gum up after one season? What gives? I never did anything with my old Tecumseh 10hp for storage. I just left whatever fuel was in it until the next winter and it always just started every winter season and ran like a champ for almost 40 years and it's still running fine.
> 
> Now I'm wondering if instead of draining fuel and running the carb dry, it might be better to just leave non-ethanol stabilized 91 octane in the tank and start the motor every 2 or 3 weeks during the summer then start the winter with fresh fuel. There would be no unpleasant surprises that way.



Yes I left the fuel full and agree that a monthly start up is the way around all these issues.


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## djc11369 (Feb 17, 2014)

I read recently that if you are running ethanol blended fuel currently that you should remain doing so as switching to non-ethanol could cause engine damage.  It didn't go into any reason why and I can't fathom why this would be. Anybody else read or heard of anything similar and know of a reason why?


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## KC Snow 28 (Jan 4, 2014)

Update: indeed, the dealer said the problem was fuel and they fight ethanol problems all the time. Again, reason number 1002 of why to buy from a dealer and not a box store.

Here is what I am going to do, 1. Continue to use sea foam and fuel stabilizer. 2. Run all engines periodically. 3. Use non ethanol fuel

As far as switching fuels, I haven't heard of such a thing to cause any damage and as long as the ethanol is subsidized it will always be available and cheap to produce.


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## ChrisJ (Nov 27, 2014)

djc11369 said:


> I read recently that if you are running ethanol blended fuel currently that you should remain doing so as switching to non-ethanol could cause engine damage.  It didn't go into any reason why and I can't fathom why this would be. Anybody else read or heard of anything similar and know of a reason why?


That sounds like a rumor someone started based on nothing, just like "once you switch to synthetic oil you can never go back". Neither are true.

Personally, I try to drain my carbs and sometimes gas tanks when storing machines. I also agree the 10% ethanol is what causes most headaches but keeping your gas tank full, and by full I mean practically no air in it, avoid rapid temperature changes and run it occasionally seems to avoid problems as well.

The reason for keeping the tank so full is because they claim its moisture in the air that causes the ethanol to break down and separate. Obviously you can't keep your carb bowl full due to the float level so always drain that. On my snowblower I just ran it until it stalled, then started it several times while pumping the primer. After it wouldn't start at all I then used the drain on the bowl. Getting every drop out of the carb is important.

I have no choice when it comes to 10% ethanol so I have to deal with it and doing what I said above has kept me headache free so far.


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## sscotsman (Dec 8, 2010)

I don't see how "running ocasionally" during the summer storage season is going to help at all, when its the tank of gas itself that is going bad..this is why I switched to the complete drain and dry method for summer storage..just get the gas out of there completely seems the best idea IMO...todays low quality ethanol gas can no longer survive 8 months of storage without turning to useless gunk.."running ocassionally" won't do anything to fix that problem..
Scot


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## ChrisJ (Nov 27, 2014)

Running occasionally gets the partially separated fuel out of the carb before it has a chance to solidify and clog things up. The problem isn't that e10 "goes bad" it's that moisture causes it to break down. As I said you can get most of the air out of the gas tank but not the carb so the fuel in the tank should stay good much longer than in the carb.


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## sscotsman (Dec 8, 2010)

well, maybe..but im still skeptical..
because I don't think you can reliably keep air away from the gas in the tank!  
even if you fill it to the top, there is still going to be some air in contact with the top of the gas..
plus the gas cap vents by design, which means air is free to circulate in and out of the tank, even with the gas cap screwed on tight..
so a full tank is really no different from a half-full tank, when it comes to air contact with the gas..
imo "a full tank limits air contact" sounds like pure myth when you think about what is really going on..
its going to be really hard to keep air away from the gas..so the theory breaks down, (along with the gas! 

Scot


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## RoyP (Oct 16, 2014)

I don't know what's going on. I've had snow-blowers and lawnmowers for many years. In NY we have had ethanol 10% gas for years. I have used it in both blower/mower. I put both away with fuel in the tanks with a good dose of Stabil.....when it's time to run either machine, only 1 pull gets it running great. I can NOT relate.


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## sscotsman (Dec 8, 2010)

Some people have problems with the ethanol..
some don't..
some dont..yet! 

It probably depends a lot on environmental conditions too..
temp and humidity while in storage..

we dont know what percentage of people have starting
problems due to ethanol..is it 10%? 50%, 80%? we dont know..
we do it is IS definaely a real problem though..
it's a big enough problem that I have decided to stop risking it..
drain and dry..

Scot


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## ChrisJ (Nov 27, 2014)

sscotsman said:


> well, maybe..but im still skeptical..
> because I don't think you can reliably keep air away from the gas in the tank!
> even if you fill it to the top, there is still going to be some air in contact with the top of the gas..
> plus the gas cap vents by design, which means air is free to circulate in and out of the tank, even with the gas cap screwed on tight..
> ...


Fair enough,
Here is some info backing what I said.

Protect Yourself: Ethanol Is Killing Your Carburetor - Driven Racing Oil

http://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/SeaApr10Ethanol.pdf






I've also attached a screenshot of Honda's website and while it doesn't go into detail, it basically says the same thing. While what I said may have not been 100% accurate I'd say it was 95% and the overall outcome is still the same. Also backing this is the fact modern fuel injected cars with fuel tanks which stay in a vacuum never have problems with E10. Only systems that are open to the atmosphere have constant problems. 

*In the end I still feel it's true, draining everything is by far the safest bet. I think we're both on the same page in that regard.* I have no idea is stabilizer actually works or not. I added a strong dose of Marine Sta-Bil to our 1931 Model A with a full tank of gas though so we'll see how that does this winter.


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## enigma-2 (Feb 11, 2014)

With all of the various opinions associated with this subject, might be worth re-reviewing what the experts say. Here's how my Ariens manuals reads on the subject: 

*FUEL SYSTEM*​​Gasoline left in the fuel system for extended periods without a stabilizer will deteriorate, resulting in gum deposits in the system. These deposits can damage the carburetor and the fuel hoses, filter and tank. Prevent deposits from forming in the fuel system during storage by adding a quality fuel stabilizer to the fuel. Follow the recommended mix ratio found on the fuel stabilizer container. ​ 
*Add Fuel Stabilizer*​1. Turn the fuel valve off while engine is running and allow the engine to run until it stops. Turn engine OFF when it begins surging to avoid engine damage.
2. Add fuel stabilizer, following the manufacturer’s instructions.
3. Turn fuel valve on after adding fuel stabilizer.
4. Restart engine.
5. Run the engine outdoors for 5 minutes to be sure that treated gasoline has replaced the untreated gasoline in the
carburetor.
6. Slow the engine to an idle speed.​7. Repeat step 1 above.

Ariens is stating that after using stabilizer, to run the carb dry. (My underlining above for emphasis).

(Personally I feel this is wrong. The stabilizer needs to be added to the gas as you fill the 5 gallon gas tank. Not after it's had a chance to start to break down).

As far as the stabilizers go, Sta-Bil and Sea Faom are the most used (and for good reason).

*Sta-Bil Storage* (red): prevents gas (including gasoline with E-10 thru E-85 Ethanol) from 
gum and varnish build-up for 1 year. This blend of Sta-Bil is designed for long-term "storage".
Dosage: 2 oz. per 5 gal of gasoline for storage. 
Cost: $11.48 for 32 oz. - Amazon. [$0.36/oz]
[$0.72 to treat 5 gal for long-term storage]

*STA-BIL Marine* (blue): designed specifically for use in Marine Engines used in high moisture environments. (It can also be used in regular small engines such as snowblowers without harm.
It has more than 4x the fuel system cleaner & 2x the corrosion preventer than in regular STA-BIL. This is the best Sta-Bil product to use in a snowblower.

Here's what Gold Eagle says about it: _Ethanol blended fuels can naturally hold up to 4 tbsp of water per gallon (about 0.5%) before phase separation occurs. Marine Formula STA-BIL® Ethanol Treatment contains a chemical that will absorb an additional fraction of a percent of water above this amount (around 0.2%), by bonding with the water molecules, allowing this additional amount to pass safely through the engine and out through the tailpipe. Any amount above this will drop to the bottom and phase separate. Removing large amounts of water (more than 0.75%) through bonding will cause poor power/acceleration and sometimes cause the engine to quit. Additionally, it can cause catastrophic engine damage. No engine manufacturer recommends removal of these large amounts of water through bonding. _
Dosage: 1/2 oz per 5 gal for daily use, 1 oz per 5 gal for storage.
Cost: $19.59 for 32 oz. Amazon. [$0.61/oz]
[$0.30 to treat 5 gal] (Twice that for long-term storage)


*Sta-Bil 360° Protection Ethanol Fuel Treatment & Stabilizer.* (Gold): According to Gold Eagle, 360° _releases a corrosion-preventing vapor that coats all the metal parts of the fuel system to protect *both above and below* the fuel line. Prevents corrosion, helps remove water and will stabilize fuel up to 12 months during storage._
_STA-BIL 360 PROTECTION accomplishes everything our current STA-BIL products offer, including keeping fuel fresh, removing water, cleaning the fuel system and more, but this revolutionary new product provides an exciting new level of protection for ultimate performance. For the first time, STA-BIL 360 delivers corrosion protection above and below the fuel line by releasing an innovative vapor that coats all metal parts within the fuel system to prevent corrosion._

Dosage: 1 oz. per 5 gal for daily use, 2 oz. per 5 gal for storage. (No measuring dispenser available, needs separate measuring container for mixing).
Cost: $14.99 for 12 oz Amazon. [$1.25/oz] 
[$1.25 to treat 5 gal]

None of the Sta-Bil products contain any alcohol.


*SeaFoam Motor Treatment.* This is the other product most widely used to prevent gasoline from breaking down. Its supposed to protect gas for up to 2 years. The really great thing about Sea Foam is that it will also clean out light deposits of gum and varnish in fuel lines and carburetors.

_Add 2 oz. of Sea Foam Motor Treatment to each gallon of gas oil mix. Sea Foam Motor Treatment will slowly re-liquefy old fuel and petroleum varnish residue deposits, clearing passages and restoring normal functionality. If you wish to spray atomized Sea Foam Motor Treatment directly into the carburetor throat with the engine warm and running, use Sea Foam Spray Top Engine Cleaner and Lube (Sea Foam Motor Treatment in an aerosol can)._

Stuff works great. Had a continuing slow idle problem in my old snowblower. Used SeaFoam in the gas tank, ran the engine and then left it set for a day. Idled perfectly after that. However, also had a simular problem in my new Simplicity Tractor and it couldn't clear it. Had to take it to the tractor doctor and use his ultrasonic cleaner to get the varnish out. (Works well if you use it on an on-going basis, but not a miracle worker).
Dosage: 5 oz per 5 gal. (gas treatment) or 10 oz per 5 gal for carb cleaning. (No measuring dispenser available, needs separate measuring container for mixing).
Cost: $9.95 for 16 oz - Amazon. [$0.62/oz] 
[$3.11 to treat 5 gal] (Twice that for cleaning).

Sea Foam does not contain any alcohol.


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## ChrisJ (Nov 27, 2014)

enigma-2 said:


> With all of the various opinions associated with this subject, might be worth re-reviewing what the experts say. Here's how my Ariens manuals reads on the subject:
> 
> *FUEL SYSTEM*​​Gasoline left in the fuel system for extended periods without a stabilizer will deteriorate, resulting in gum deposits in the system. These deposits can damage the carburetor and the fuel hoses, filter and tank. Prevent deposits from forming in the fuel system during storage by adding a quality fuel stabilizer to the fuel. Follow the recommended mix ratio found on the fuel stabilizer container. ​
> *Add Fuel Stabilizer*​1. Turn the fuel valve off while engine is running and allow the engine to run until it stops. Turn engine OFF when it begins surging to avoid engine damage.
> ...



Good info, thanks for sharing.

I started using Marine Sta-Bil due to recommendations on the Model A forum. The claims are that it deals with the ethanol problems much better than the normal stuff.

As I said though I've never used it on my personal stuff and just trying it for the first time on the Model A at work.


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## scrappy (Dec 7, 2014)

I'm in the camp of drain the tank and run the carb dry. Now on the other hand my landlord has at least 10 or 15 small engines. The 2 cycle snow blower Toro, he will do the dry storage. Everything else he just puts away without doing a thing, no Sta-bil no nothing. He never has a problem.. go figure. 
I think snow equipment that is stored during the high humidity of the summer, is what the difference is.


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## Drifty (Apr 29, 2014)

I have had the same problem with the same model. My machine has about 30 hrs. on it. Run gas with 10% ethanol. Bought new gas and within a week the same problem occurred. Added stabil to gas and after a couple of runs the same problem. Outdoor temps during this time were 20 degrees F or below. Very little moisture in the air. Checked electrical connections and all checked OK. Then I tried leaving the gas cap ajar (about a half turn from tight closed) and have not had a problem in the past 8 hours of runtime. May have found the cause of my problem. Will let you know how it worked out.


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## Drifty (Apr 29, 2014)

Drifty said:


> I have had the same problem with the same model. My machine has about 30 hrs. on it. Run gas with 10% ethanol. Bought new gas and within a week the same problem occurred. Added stabil to gas and after a couple of runs the same problem. Outdoor temps during this time were 20 degrees F or below. Very little moisture in the air. Checked electrical connections and all checked OK. Then I tried leaving the gas cap ajar (about a half turn from tight closed) and have not had a problem in the past 8 hours of runtime. May have found the cause of my problem. Will let you know how it worked out.


 Well I had the chance today to try running my machine with the gas cap in the full tight position. Sure enough after running for a while the engine started to surge and sputter. Opened the gas cap about a half turn and everything was back to normal. Going to check with the dealer about a replacement cap.


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