# Propane Powered Poulan Snowblower



## Dannoman (Jan 16, 2018)

No need to worry about old gas. 
Check it out. This guy converted from gasoline to propane on his 8HP 27" Poulan snowblower.
Pretty ingenious...


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## drmerdp (Feb 9, 2014)

Roughly 20% power loss using propane on a low compression gas engine, but definitely no stale fuel problems. 

It’s neat. I converted my generator to run on my houses propane. It’s great never having to worry about old gas.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

drmerdp said:


> Roughly 20% power loss using propane on a low compression gas engine, but definitely no stale fuel problems.
> 
> It’s neat. I converted my generator to run on my houses propane. It’s great never having to worry about old gas.


Many generator companies are selling dual fuel generators out of the box. Gas/Propane. Pretty cool. One thing I learned from Sandy. When the power is out everywhere, gas pumps don't pump, but you can still get propane. I had to drive 30 miles to get gas.


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## Dannoman (Jan 16, 2018)

20% power loss converts that 8HP into a ~ 5.5 HP. This idea would work better on a 10HP or higher to compensate for power loss.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

Dannoman said:


> 20% power loss converts that 8HP into a ~ 5.5 HP. This idea would work better on a 10HP or higher to compensate for power loss.


Only depends on how it's injected. 
So what they do to compensate is put in a second injector.

A typically car injector for say a 350-400 HP engine is 30lbs/hr or so. A propane injector is 160- 200 lbs/hour in gasoline terms. So with much bigger injectors, there's compensation for that.


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

This is an interesting solution, I applaud people's creativity. It's not something I'd be looking to do, but I'm glad it works for him! Might need to add some weight on the bucket for balance (I didn't get to watch the video, maybe that's addressed), but it's at least some extra ballast for traction. 



jsup said:


> Many generator companies are selling dual fuel generators out of the box. Gas/Propane. Pretty cool. One thing I learned from Sandy. When the power is out everywhere, gas pumps don't pump, but you can still get propane. I had to drive 30 miles to get gas.


I guess if you have multiple 20lb propane tanks, that would help. Or a big propane tank for heat, which you could pull from. 

The local hardware store doesn't need electricity to fill my tank, from what I recall of the filling process. Though if they're closed, I'm somewhat stuck, as there are a lot more gas stations around, than propane filling stations. 

I have several gas cans, and I might be able to get some out of the car tanks, if needed. My gas cans have stabilizer, of course. 

My current solution to the generator fuel dilemma is efficiency, my little 2000W inverter generator can run 1-3 days straight on my 7-gallon-total external tank setup, depending on the load. I haven't needed to drive 30 miles, fortunately, but I've waited ~45 minutes in line at the nearest gas station to fill up during an outage. Which was a good reminder that I want to be able to minimize my consumption, and maximize my fuel amount during a fillup run.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

RedOctobyr said:


> This is an interesting solution, I applaud people's creativity. It's not something I'd be looking to do, but I'm glad it works for him! Might need to add some weight on the bucket for balance (I didn't get to watch the video, maybe that's addressed), but it's at least some extra ballast for traction.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have a 5500 watt that runs overnight with a light load. I'm looking at these new ones with dual fuel so I have options. Can always go steal propane from the neighbor's grill in an emergency. (I use steal figuratively, not literally. Steal with permission)

Many stores have the pre filled 20LB propane tanks on the shelf.


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## RIT333 (Feb 6, 2014)

Dannoman said:


> 20% power loss converts that 8HP into a ~ 5.5 HP. This idea would work better on a 10HP or higher to compensate for power loss.


Where I come from, it would only drop it down to about 6.4 HP. But, I am not schooled in the "new math".


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

RIT333 said:


> Where I come from, it would only drop it down to about 6.4 HP. But, I am not schooled in the "new math".


If it drops or not is a function of the implementation, not the fuel.


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## Dannoman (Jan 16, 2018)

RIT333 said:


> Where I come from, it would only drop it down to about 6.4 HP. But, I am not schooled in the "new math".


My bad. I meant to type ~ 6.5 HP


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## drmerdp (Feb 9, 2014)

jsup said:


> Only depends on how it's injected.
> So what they do to compensate is put in a second injector.
> 
> A typically car injector for say a 350-400 HP engine is 30lbs/hr or so. A propane injector is 160- 200 lbs/hour in gasoline terms. So with much bigger injectors, there's compensation for that.


Well the thing with propane is that it has a lower BTU per gallon then gasoline. And adding more fuel doesn’t make up for the inefficiency on low compression gasoline engines. 

The biggest benefits of propane are on engines with a compression ratio of 11:1 or greater. Propane has An octane rating as high as 112, plus the ideal a/f ratio is leaner then gasoline. 15.6 vs gasoline 14.7.

A proper build propane engine can match a gasoline engine, but there is loss putting propane on a gas engine. For a generator it’s a no brainer. The reason I bought a 7000 watt generator was because I was planning on converting to propane and was happy with it being able to sustain a clean 5000 Watt load without worry. 

I think I overstated the power loss, it’s probably closer to 15%


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

drmerdp said:


> Well the thing with propane is that it has a lower BTU per gallon then gasoline. And adding more fuel doesn’t make up for the inefficiency on low compression gasoline engines.
> 
> The biggest benefits of propane are on engines with a compression ratio of 11:1 or greater. Propane has An octane rating as high as 112, plus the ideal a/f ratio is leaner then gasoline. 15.6 vs gasoline 14.7.
> 
> ...


Ya ,now, I haven't spent much time, if any, with engines with low compression like these. I'm basing my comments on my bias of higher compression, coming from a different perspective where it was assumed the compression was AT LEAST 11:1, or there about. So my ignorance probably bit me in the but.lain:

What is the static compression of these engines? Somewhere I heard something about 8:1, is that right? 

Exactly right on the AF ratio. It is much leaner. Which means cleaner.


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

The issue is mainly due to cylinder volume and air/fuel ratio. If gasoline, at it's optimal af ratio delivers a lot more energy per unit volume than propane, then short of turbocharging the small engine to force more charge it, you are at a power loss, period! Increasing the af ratio of the propane will simply result in an overly rich mixture, and unburned fuel being blown out the exhaust . . . Without some form of boost, for a given max speed, the volume the engine can intake is fixed, and no amount of additional injectors will change that . . .


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## jrcjr (Sep 23, 2017)

Of greater importance than the energy density and power ratios is how long are you going to be able to run before that propane cylinder gets cold enough that it stops delivering fuel?


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

Properly implemented, I think waste engine heat could be used to keep the bottle warm. I'm just not sure I'm ready to lug a 20lb gas cylinder around the driveway . . .


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## JLawrence08648 (Jan 15, 2017)

Maybe the next progression after EFI from the manufacturers will be EFI with propane using smaller propane tanks. Or two tanks with a switch to switch over from the depleted tank to the full tank. There are kits for the homeowner to refill smaller camping cylinders from a larger tank.


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## drmerdp (Feb 9, 2014)

jsup said:


> Ya ,now, I haven't spent much time, if any, with engines with low compression like these. I'm basing my comments on my bias of higher compression, coming from a different perspective where it was assumed the compression was AT LEAST 11:1, or there about. So my ignorance probably bit me in the but.lain:
> 
> What is the static compression of these engines? Somewhere I heard something about 8:1, is that right?
> 
> Exactly right on the AF ratio. It is much leaner. Which means cleaner.



Using Honda as an example, gx390 8.2:1, gx270 8.5:1, gx200 8.5:1. 

I have no idea what the old tecumseh flat head engines spec at, but I would assume something in the neighborhood of 7-8:1.


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

JLawrence08648 said:


> Maybe the next progression after EFI from the manufacturers will be EFI with propane using smaller propane tanks. Or two tanks with a switch to switch over from the depleted tank to the full tank. There are kits for the homeowner to refill smaller camping cylinders from a larger tank.


Now there's a way to target a small segment of the market!  

"Who wants EFI?"
"Ok, and who also wants to run on propane?" 
"Great, you three guys, have I got the machine for you!"

I mean no offense. I'm just not sure this is something that would have broad appeal. 

EFI seems to have some barriers to entry as it is. And one thing that's been mentioned as an EFI benefit is possibly being more tolerant of gas going bad. But that EFI aspect wouldn't even apply with propane.


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## JLawrence08648 (Jan 15, 2017)

I agree, limited market, very! Lol. However, I'm really looking for a private bridge for sale, charging to cross, and operating it in my retirement.



RedOctobyr said:


> Now there's a way to target a small segment of the market!
> 
> "Who wants EFI?"
> "Ok, and who also wants to run on propane?"
> ...


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## crazzywolfie (Jun 2, 2014)

i am pretty sure there is a good reason they don't run propane on snowblowers. i am pretty sure it is the exact same reason it is not as commonly found on cars or at least around here. propane and the cold just don't get along so good. if you have a garage that you can keep the snowblower in that keeps it out of the extreme colds than ya it might not do too bad but i don't know how well i would trust it without. i believe even most of the setups used on cars have heaters built into them that tie into the vehicles cooling system to keep them warm and from freezing up.

has anyone considered considered using hydrogen on a snowblower? i know engines can run on it and you can get it in a tank like propane but not sure if it is cost effective or if there is an efficient way to run it other than injecting it into the air intake like most people seem to do. i also don't know how it would do in the cold


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## RIT333 (Feb 6, 2014)

Quite frankly, I have no idea where my nearest "hydrogen station" is, and I know where all of the gas stations are. No thanks !


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## drmerdp (Feb 9, 2014)

RIT333 said:


> Quite frankly, I have no idea where my nearest "hydrogen station" is, and I know where all of the gas stations are. No thanks !


A buddy of mine runs a hydrogen generator on his s10. (In the warm months.) It’s been good for 2-3 mpg.


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## crazzywolfie (Jun 2, 2014)

RIT333 said:


> Quite frankly, I have no idea where my nearest "hydrogen station" is, and I know where all of the gas stations are. No thanks !


i don't know if there generally is filling station. i think they are just swap and go like argon cylinders for welding. i really don't know if it would be something worth looking into since we are talking about running a snowblower on alternative fuel. i know you can build a hho generator that will power a small engine but i see it being nearly as much of a pain to maintain as a carb since you will likely have to ad something like coolant to the mix to keep the water from freezing in the hho generator. i also don't know if a power output from a snowblower magneto would be enough to power a hho generator or not and how big of a battery would you need to run it long enough to clear all the snow you generally move? i guess i got more questions than answers lol.


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## Dauntae (Nov 10, 2016)

Could always go green and rig it to run bio diesel LOL Don't they have cars that can run on used cooking oil? HMMMM Clear the drive with a smell of french fries.... OH GOD clearing snow will get me fat.... Now I want French fries.....


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## crazzywolfie (Jun 2, 2014)

lol but the disadvantage to running something like a diesel would be starting it in the cold and fuel possibly jelling. otherwise they would be pretty good for a snowblower. lots of torque and fuel never really goes bad. i also don't think you would be able to run cooking oil or at least not without thinning it out with something. it would be like molasses in the cold


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## Dauntae (Nov 10, 2016)

As long as I get French fries, I’ll stick to gas in the snow blower.


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## Dannoman (Jan 16, 2018)

I'm still holding out for the nuclear-powered snowblower.


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## dr bob (Dec 12, 2015)

Dannoman said:


> I'm still holding out for the nuclear-powered snowblower.


Glowing reports on those...

Why not make it a low-dose snow-melter instead, and avoid all that inefficient heat-to-kinetic conversion stuff? Avoid the issues with failing reactor cooling pumps and that gaping hole in the driveway where you left it running one time.

:devil:


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## dr bob (Dec 12, 2015)

crazzywolfie said:


> lol but the disadvantage to running something like a diesel would be starting it in the cold and fuel possibly jelling. otherwise they would be pretty good for a snowblower. lots of torque and fuel never really goes bad. i also don't think you would be able to run cooking oil or at least not without thinning it out with something. it would be like molasses in the cold


Think "Yanmar" and you are there already.


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## jrcjr (Sep 23, 2017)

And of course the next step up from all of those is just run pipes under your driveway, open a valve and run some hot water through and watch all the snow melt away, leaving a clean and dry driveway. 
Well, come on now, somebody get on it. LOL


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

You can get heated driveways. I believe some do use circulated, heated liquid under the surface. It sounds pretty sweet, and extremely expensive. 

A snowblower is more compatible with my budget


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## New_HondaHS35 (Jan 18, 2014)

jsup said:


> Many generator companies are selling dual fuel generators out of the box. Gas/Propane. Pretty cool. One thing I learned from Sandy. When the power is out everywhere, gas pumps don't pump, but you can still get propane. I had to drive 30 miles to get gas.


that's not true. a few years ago when we had a cold snap we almost ran out around here it was rationed


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## crazzywolfie (Jun 2, 2014)

jrcjr said:


> And of course the next step up from all of those is just run pipes under your driveway, open a valve and run some hot water through and watch all the snow melt away, leaving a clean and dry driveway.
> Well, come on now, somebody get on it. LOL


lol that is actually not a bad idea. would be great for people like me who like to wrench on stuff in my driveway. i could almost use it now. got a few things to do under my vehicles and some heated driveway would be awesome. might have to add it to the non paved side of the driveway. could maybe even tie it into my trucks cooling system since the truck get hot quick without the cooling fan.


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## ka2aev (Feb 8, 2018)

One of my neighbors dumped a bunch of money into redoing his house a few years ago and when he finished it, had some money left over and decided to redo his driveway and put in those heating pipes under it before resurfacing it,
Well in this past fall he decided to "activate" his system. Next thing he notices that there is water leaking from the 
ground at the end of the driveway into the street! Turns out one of those pipes developed a leak and now this
spring when it warms up he's gonna dig it all up and redo it again! Why? I dunno! I agree a snowblower would
be cheaper!


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## jarrod.robran (Feb 25, 2018)

I'm the crazy guy that converted the snowblower...
The 20% loss in efficiency is in fuel consumption, not horsepower. I can state for a fact it has as much or more power after the conversion as before. 
As far as running it in cold, I have ran it in 0 degree F with no issues. 
It starts like a dream, did no maintenance on the carb this year. 

See for yourself...








Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


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## aldfam4 (Dec 25, 2016)

jarrod.robran said:


> I'm the crazy guy that converted the snowblower...
> The 20% loss in efficiency is in fuel consumption, not horsepower. I can state for a fact it has as much or more power after the conversion as before.
> As far as running it in cold, I have ran it in 0 degree F with no issues.
> It starts like a dream, did no maintenance on the carb this year.
> ...


very nice mod! gotta love those impeller kits!!!


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## jarrod.robran (Feb 25, 2018)

Update on the propane blower: 
We just had 6-8" of snow and -20 degree temps this week. Took the propane beast out and blew snow for 30 minutes. Started like a champ, full power the entire time. I have yet to fine weather cold enough to freeze up the regulator. If I were running 1 pound tanks that would be more of a problem, but the 11 pounder does great. 

I really couldn't be happier with the conversion. An 11 pound tank lasted all season last year and I finished it off by running my big buddy heater for 3 hours. So put all the theoretical stuff aside - this thing kicks ass and I'll put it up against an equivalent gas engine any day. It will rip throw even the heaviest stuff. I know it will start every time, zero maintenance, no fouled plugs, oil stays clean, just turn the gas on, hit the starter and go. AND, I don't smell like exhaust afterward which is nice for working in an office.


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## Greg13 (Nov 25, 2018)

Ok, so I'm assuming that it is a vapor system and not a liquid. I was wondering how you were going to heat the liquid to vaporize it.


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## russ01915 (Dec 18, 2013)

here's a kit for Briggs

http://www.amazon.com/Briggs-Stratton-Natural-Propane-Conversion/dp/B00NUCD4GW


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## crazzywolfie (Jun 2, 2014)

wouldn't it just be cheaper to install a system like this?


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## jarrod.robran (Feb 25, 2018)

crazzywolfie said:


> wouldn't it just be cheaper to install a system like this?
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Fuerdi-Carbu...1&refRID=F3SJ0J42YNHGZB1RB2TW#customerReviews


Majority of the cost was in the regulator, you want a quality one. The one I have is a Beam T60, which goes for 143 on Amazon. 
My conversion from Carb and Turbo Systems was $170, which I feel I've already made up in maintenance time. 
Although I would be interested in seeing how the $35 kit performs on a Craigslist project blower. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


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## crazzywolfie (Jun 2, 2014)

i feel like it would take a pretty long time to make up maintenance costs on a $170. i know i definitely would not consider spending that much to convert snowblower to propane. there are a few video's of people using those dual fuel carbs on youtube. i don't think there is any kits available for the older engines like yours but they seem like they are available for the newer OHV engines. almost temped to order 1 for my ariens. i broke the choke on the carb so it needs to be replaced anyways.


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## jarrod.robran (Feb 25, 2018)

crazzywolfie said:


> i feel like it would take a pretty long time to make up maintenance costs on a $170. i know i definitely would not consider spending that much to convert snowblower to propane.


Depends on what you think your time is worth.
Prior to the conversion I had nothing but carb issues with this thing and was sick of it not starting when I needed it most. It's now as reliable as my truck. No gas to drain, no changing fouled plugs, and no dealing with gummed up carbs.
Peace of mind was totally worth it. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


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## SnowH8ter (Oct 8, 2018)

crazzywolfie said:


> i feel like it would take a pretty long time to make up maintenance costs on a $170.



Indeed! I spent a small fraction of that on the Mastercraft over 22 yrs. Belts, a round rubber thing for the friction wheel and a spark plug when she was 10 years old. That's all she wrote for some 600 hrs or thereabouts of blow'n white stuff. No carb problems either. Notwithstanding, and aside from the expenditure, the conversion is very kewl! :thumbsup: Clean burning and a fuel tank that last all season. Awesome! However, the author of this ingenious machine contends that it produces the same power on propane as it did when it was consuming gasoline. That is physically impossible. An internal combustion cylinder, optimally charged with propane, produces measurably less pressure during the burn than a cylinder charged with vaporized (proper ratio, please!) gasoline. It may appear to be producing the same amount of power but the physics of thermodynamics say otherwise. :icon-cheers:


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## Liam (Aug 16, 2019)

jarrod.robran said:


> Majority of the cost was in the regulator, you want a quality one. The one I have is a Beam T60, which goes for 143 on Amazon.
> My conversion from Carb and Turbo Systems was $170, which I feel I've already made up in maintenance time.
> Although I would be interested in seeing how the $35 kit performs on a Craigslist project blower.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk


It seems to me that he will not withstand the necessary load or will work poorly.


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