# Hond HS928 Engine Locked Up with Ice Spitting out of Plug Hole



## orangputeh (Nov 24, 2016)

Never came across this. Neighbor who has a HS928 that he leaves outside. used it last week and says it worked fine. parked it and now it won't turn over.

so i went over and removed spark plug. the flywheel turns about 300 degrees in both directions and then stops like it is jammed. i thought the worse and thought blown rod but it doesn't knock stop like it is hitting something inside

when we turn the flywheel ice spits out of the plug hole
appears to be alot of ice in the cylinder.

other clues

when removing oil dip stick , a lot of oil pours out. neighbor said he changed oil last year .

the muffler looks like it had snow in the exhaust part.

would it be possible for water to get into the cylinder thru the muffler?

like i said have never seen this before. it does not appear to have water in fuel tank.

the neighbor is going to attempt to melt snow thru the plug hole and then drain oil. ( the oil pouring out wasn't milky but that oil was on top ) and then replace oil and try turning engine over . 

I also told him he should spray some penetrating oil in spark plug oil after melting the ice in cylinder and then flushing oil out again if it does turn over. then manually turn engine over a bunch with new oil before starting.

since it was running fine before he parked it and then this happens what do you think? unless he is not giving me all the info I am a little puzzelled.

am I missing something here?


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## Jackmels (Feb 18, 2013)

Pull the Shroud off the Engine, and check the Flywheel Area. Could be a mouse nest or other Obstruction.


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## 2.137269 (Nov 15, 2019)

orangputeh said:


> Never came across this. Neighbor who has a HS928 that he leaves outside. used it last week and says it worked fine. parked it and now it won't turn over.
> 
> so i went over and removed spark plug. the flywheel turns about 300 degrees in both directions and then stops like it is jammed. i thought the worse and thought blown rod but it doesn't knock stop like it is hitting something inside
> 
> ...


"so i went over and removed spark plug. the flywheel turns about 300 degrees in both directions and then stops like it is jammed. i thought the worse and thought blown rod but it doesn't knock stop like it is hitting something inside"
OK THERE YOU MIGHT FIND FROZEN WATER NEAR THE CYLINDER TOP WHERE THE MOTOR STOPPED
""when removing oil dip stick , a lot of oil pours out. neighbor said he changed oil last year "".
WATER MIGHT BE FOUND IN THE CC AFTER IT THAWS OUT,
"when we turn the flywheel ice spits out of the plug hole
appears to be alot of ice in the cylinder."
AGAIN WATER IN THE INTAKE TRACK 
i would thaw it out over a long time drain and flush the crank case, remove the muffler and blow it out, same with the intake, IMM only!! your not getting the whole story, it's not easy to get water into a snow blower motor unless it got submerged in a lake


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## orangputeh (Nov 24, 2016)

87powershiftx2 said:


> "so i went over and removed spark plug. the flywheel turns about 300 degrees in both directions and then stops like it is jammed. i thought the worse and thought blown rod but it doesn't knock stop like it is hitting something inside"
> OK THERE YOU MIGHT FIND FROZEN WATER NEAR THE CYLINDER TOP WHERE THE MOTOR STOPPED
> ""when removing oil dip stick , a lot of oil pours out. neighbor said he changed oil last year "".
> WATER MIGHT BE FOUND IN THE CC AFTER IT THAWS OUT,
> ...


ya, i have the feeling not getting the whole story. i've helped this guy before when his choke froze because he leaves it outside.


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## SkunkyLawnmowers (Oct 18, 2018)

@orangputeh 

Certainly not your everyday case study this one!!! 

I think your advice to him is sound - take their time, proceed with caution and no spark starts until everyone's happy as tey can be those bores are lubed. 

It is in theory possible for water to get in through the exhaust if conditions were right and the engine had stopped with exhaust valve open. If I were a betting woman I'd say more likely that the spark plug was left out and water / snow got in maybe with the piston at BDC which would account for the amount of ice in there.


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## Grunt (Nov 11, 2013)

After using any piece of gas powered lawn equipment, I pull the recoil until I have resistance, meaning top of compression stroke, which closes both valves and piston has minimal exposure to the air. I think it's a good procedure to follow.


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## orangputeh (Nov 24, 2016)

Jackmels said:


> Pull the Shroud off the Engine, and check the Flywheel Area. Could be a mouse nest or other Obstruction.


will do. any ideas how snow is spitting out of the spark plug hole. quite a bit. 

i'mjust afarid this guyiss going to mess things upmore. he want to do it himself.


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## SkunkyLawnmowers (Oct 18, 2018)

Grunt said:


> After using any piece of gas powered lawn equipment, I pull the recoil until I have resistance, meaning top of compression stroke, which closes both valves and piston has minimal exposure to the air. I think it's a good procedure to follow.


Good advice and I always do that. On my Honda generator if I don't do that and if it isn't started for quiite a while there is a plume of smoke on start up which is a small oil leak through the valve. Closing the valves as you mentioned totally stops this for me and makes start ups generally much easier. Plus the pull cord is already in the correct position for starting.


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## orangputeh (Nov 24, 2016)

it's frustrating working with people like this because they leave their blower out in the elements. 

a cover, tarp or something is better than nothing.


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

Seems like giving it plenty of time to melt the internal ice should be a good start. I'd drain & change the oil, pull the plug and turn it over a bunch to get water out of the cylinder. Then probably spray some oil into the cylinder, and start it. I'd be inclined to change the oil again after running it 5-10 minutes, to help get any water out of the crankcase. 

Sure seems like there's more to the story, as was said. And it's a shame that people don't take better care of their equipment. Even for more-mundane machines, but especially for higher-end stuff like a Honda. At least keep it under a tarp, so it's not getting rained/snowed on directly. 

The previous owner must have stored my Ariens outside & uncovered for a while. Which has led to a lot of rusted fasteners (and rust in general), including stuck fasteners that have twisted off, which is a real pain. A little simple protection would have helped a lot. My tractor has lived outside under a tarp for 10 years (it's over 20 years old), and looks good. I believe the previous owners stored it in their garage. So even though just a tarp is certainly not ideal, it makes a big difference, just by itself.


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

Not a useful comment, but just rereading this took my mind to the scene in the movie "Risky Business" where they have pulled the Porsche out of lake Michigan, and the shop guy comes out and asks: "OK, so who's the U boat commander?"


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

With that type of water damage, it appears like someone vandalized the machine. Poured water in the intake after they removed the air filter cover to do so, then filled the crankcase with water, tipping the machine to get more water in it with the engine oil, then when they were done, they put the machine back together and let it sit knowing it would be frozen and the problems they'd cause when the owner tries to start the engine.
It sounds like it was all done intentionally, maybe an unfriendly neighbor? Un-supervised kids? Jealous neighbor because the owner has a better machine than they do?
That type of damage doesn't occur under normal circumstances.


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## orangputeh (Nov 24, 2016)

ST1100A said:


> With that type of water damage, it appears like someone vandalized the machine. Poured water in the intake after they removed the air filter cover to do so, then filled the crankcase with water, tipping the machine to get more water in it with the engine oil, then when they were done, they put the machine back together and let it sit knowing it would be frozen and the problems they'd cause when the owner tries to start the engine.
> It sounds like it was all done intentionally, maybe an unfriendly neighbor? Un-supervised kids? Jealous neighbor because the owner has a better machine than they do?
> That type of damage doesn't occur under normal circumstances.


I told the owner I have NEVER seen something like this. he swears it was running fine when he parked it. You're right , there is a LOT of ice in the cylinder and is probably why we could make a full revolution with the flywheel.

I wish he would let me do the work .he does not have a garage and just wants to use a hair dryer. i told him the steps that needed to be done before actually starting but am afraid he'll miss something and cause more damage.

I told him I'd do it for free. Either not getting the full story or it is vandalism. Even leaving out in weather could not have caused this much water in the cylinder. we have only had a couple inches in the last couple weeks .


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

O.P.,The engine has a steel cylinder liner, he is going to have rust in it, and the rest of the engine down in the crankcase, he could be looking at a major engine overhaul or a blown motor if he doesn't have it gone over properly and decides to just run it.
If you would work on it for free for him, you are doing him a very nice favor for him. I don't think he realizes the damage he could have.


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## orangputeh (Nov 24, 2016)

ST1100A said:


> O.P.,The engine has a steel cylinder liner, he is going to have rust in it, and the rest of the engine down in the crankcase, he could be looking at a major engine overhaul or a blown motor if he doesn't have it gone over properly and decides to just run it.
> If you would work on it for free for him, you are doing him a very nice favor for him. I don't think he realizes the damage he could have.


I'm not doing an engine overhaul for free but the general work to prepare for start. I get this way on doing free repairs when I am concerned the owner is gonna mess it up more.

I do not do free repairs on other people's screw ups. But I do understand what you are saying about rust and such. It's going to take patience to so this right which most people do not have thinking that Honda's are "bulletproof "

I'll check back when i learn more.


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

Ok, I hope for the best with it. Maybe you can get away with the basics and it will be ok for him. But let him know he could have some serious problems in the future because if the water in it. 
Again, Lets hope for the best of it.
Like if he ever gets any pitting in the cylinder walls, it might take a year or longer, and the engine starts smoking from worn rings. Bearings down on the crankshaft possibility of problems. The only way to tell would be a complete engine tear down and inspection, but that's a lot of extra work, and could cost money. 
That is very nice of you to help the guy out with it. Maybe the basic things you want to do with it will take care of it and get it running good for him again, that's one of those things you never know and can only hope everything will turn out good for it. If he didn't do anything at all with it and just started and ran it without "Prepping" it, he could possibly blow it up in a hurry or at least cause some severe damage.
At least those older Honda engines could take a lot of abuse before they finally died.
I wish you the best of luck with it, and let me know how you make out with it.


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

Most of the time when you turn off an engine and as it is "Spinning down" it usually stops when the valves are closed and the compression makes it come to a complete stop.
Most of the time, but not always. Then if the engine is ever turned over afterwards it could open a valve, and it could be left that way.
That is one of the reasons they say that you should add a little bit of oil to the cylinder before long term storage, to coat everything with some oil lubricant to help protect the metal surfaces from corrosion and water, and also to help prevent a "Dry Start" condition, and protect the piston rings.
That's one of those little storage tips that most people never do when putting their lawn mowers or snow blowers away at the end of the season.


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

I'm not trying to minimize the risk of more-severe internal damage. But the timeframe is fairly short (a week). And I've seen multiple people talk about seized engines that are worked free with a big wrench and some oil, and then run again. So hopefully it's not the kiss of death for this engine. 

If it's being stored in below-freezing conditions, I don't think I'd trust a hair dryer to melt it internally, though. I'd want to bring it in somewhere warm. Or maybe even just bring it indoors and do something like placing a 60W (or whatever) trouble light against the engine, and let it gradually warm up?


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## orangputeh (Nov 24, 2016)

RedOctobyr said:


> I'm not trying to minimize the risk of more-severe internal damage. But the timeframe is fairly short (a week). And I've seen multiple people talk about seized engines that are worked free with a big wrench and some oil, and then run again. So hopefully it's not the kiss of death for this engine.
> 
> If it's being stored in below-freezing conditions, I don't think I'd trust a hair dryer to melt it internally, though. I'd want to bring it in somewhere warm. Or maybe even just bring it indoors and do something like placing a 60W (or whatever) trouble light against the engine, and let it gradually warm up?


agree 100% . since this guy doesn't want to do it right and I have told him a couple times to spend $10 on a tarp to keep it out of the weather and he never did I am not going to do the work if he tries to fix it himself and screws it up more.

he's trying to save money. I just can not believe the neglect on a machine he paid $2000 for used. 

I will give him advice but my wife warned me that if I try to fix and/or fix it and it works for awhile and then blows he will be bringing me to small claims court or blaming me for ruining his blower.

my wife is smart this way . I just like helping people with their Honda's but this could backfire. like my Mom used to say ..."no good deed goes unpunished. "


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## strtch5881 (Oct 6, 2018)

I have worked on power equipment with the same problems. I asked one fellow where he stored his snowblower and garden tiller. He said behind the house, under the eave. He had 12" eaves with no gutters. Blower had ice in cylinder and the tiller was hydrolocked. The crankcase was full on both of them.


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## foggysail (Feb 21, 2015)

Why waste worries on him???? Taking care of one's equipment is the owner's responsibility. Gees guys, helping a neighbor is one thing, trying to force free advice and help is another. 

Give the nice guy directions to a local dealer.


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## orangputeh (Nov 24, 2016)

foggysail said:


> Why waste worries on him???? Taking care of one's equipment is the owner's responsibility. Gees guys, helping a neighbor is one thing, trying to force free advice and help is another.
> 
> Give the nice guy directions to a local dealer.


ya, I'm an idiot trying to help a neighbor.


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## Grunt (Nov 11, 2013)

orangputeh said:


> ya, I'm an idiot trying to help a neighbor.



No, your just a person who has a passion for the work you do and try to help people who need it and don't realize they do. This applies to your neighbor.


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## foggysail (Feb 21, 2015)

orangputeh said:


> ya, I'm an idiot trying to help a neighbor.


No you are not an idiot. It is your neighbor who refuses knowledgeable help from someone anxious to save that neighbor from unnecessary expenses. You are one of the rare individuals willing to get involved solving problems without requesting payment unless the task gets complicated requiring extensive work.

I wish you were my neighbor:thumbsup:


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## RIT333 (Feb 6, 2014)

foggysail said:


> I wish you were my neighbor:thumbsup:



I hope you like his music selections. I do !


I could use a Corona drinking neighbor.


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## orangputeh (Nov 24, 2016)

guy came over and dealer told him to pour gas into spark plug hole to wash water out. he said the carb was full of water and said he cleaned it out but now it won't start. ya i told him it needs a more thorough cleaning and that the oilhas to be changed again and the plug should be removed and cleaned and dried out.

oh , it turns over now so that is a good thing but i tried to reiterate that if he does not prep engine correctly before starting it he could blow it. or the very least cause long term damage.


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## ST1100A (Feb 7, 2015)

The inside of his carburetor could be corroded pretty badly. The small passageways that fuel and air travel through could be corroded shut, float seat damaged, he could be looking at replacing the carburetor if it is bad enough, or a major cleaning.
Depending on how long it sat with water in it, he could have other corrosion inside the engine, cylinder, valve stems, valve seats and ports besides anything down in the bottom end/crankcase area. Then you want to check all electrical connections for corrosion and dry out the spark plug wire.
To get that much water down in there, it is almost like it was either vandalized, someone put water in the gas tank instead of fuel, let is sit out without a gas cap, sat out without the air cleaner lid cover on it, sat out without the spark plug installed, or the whole machine was under water. Then figure how did it get that much water down in the crankcase? If that was the case, who knows what else could be wrong with it.
The trick with pouring gas into the spark plug hole might help a little bit with drying it out, a 2 stroke mixture would be better because of the oil in it to help coat the metal. A good thing to use to really dry it out would be Acetone because it will evaporate quickly and take any leftover water with it, but it is highly flammable and does evaporate very quickly.
Something doesn't sound right with the person who owned it, maybe they were too embarrassed to admit what really happened with it, or their neglect with it, but OP you were trying to be the "Good Samaritan" by helping the person out with it and trying to help save them money because they would most likely get a pretty expensive bill from a good reputable dealer or shop to make the proper repairs to it.
The oil will have to be changed a couple of times, first run it until it gets up to full operating temperature to boil off and residual water, then drain it and fill with fresh oil, then run it again for a while and repeat the oil change again to help remove any leftover rust or corrosive byproducts that may have broken loose from the surfaces.


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## orangputeh (Nov 24, 2016)

my wife agrees with @foggysail and asked me why do I stress so much about other people's problems.? It is probably because they TRUST me for advice . They come over and ask questions and take my advice. Then I worry that that advice may backfire.

I'd feel terrible if someone took my advice and then made matters worse. In this case I'm worried that the owner is in too much of a hurry to get his machine going again and cut corners and cause more damage.

I cautioned him about this telling him about thoroughly cleaning out carb and then changing the oil a couple times afterward. 

we'll see. he was excited that the engine was turning over with the pull starter.


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## orangputeh (Nov 24, 2016)

owner took machine to dealer, thank goodness. 

now i can sleep. 

one of many faults....worry wart.


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## BNSFguy (Nov 2, 2019)

So he parks it outside, completely uncovered, exposed to the elements ?? Doesn't even care enough about it to spend $5.00 on a tarp to at least cover it up ?? He obviously doesn't care about it, why should you ?? My advice to him: go buy a new machine every couple of years. I just don't understand people like him. I'm with your wife on this one. If he don't care, I certainly wouldn't.


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## all3939 (Dec 21, 2014)

orangputeh said:


> owner took machine to dealer, thank goodness.
> 
> now i can sleep.
> 
> one of many faults....worry wart.


They will take him to the cleaners wouldya think !


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## orangputeh (Nov 24, 2016)

all3939 said:


> They will take him to the cleaners wouldya think !


most likely. 

vegas bookmakers won't even draw up a line on it.


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## groomerz (Feb 7, 2015)

Not caring or not knowing why or how to care. 




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## crazzywolfie (Jun 2, 2014)

I have seen this before. I don't know exactly what caused it but have seen it. Went to look at a machine that was suppose to be brand new that someone was selling. It would not turn 360* but looked brand New. Ended up getting it for a bit cheaper. About 30 minutes driving later unloaded it out of my SUV and it fired right up. Also had it happen with my ariens once. Don't know what caused that but I usually use the exhaust off another machine parked beside it to warm it up enough to get the ice thawed and engine fired up.

If he had oil overflowing out of the engine he may want to hit it with a heater or heat gun. Most likely a good chunk of ice in the crankcase


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## LoudA4 (Nov 14, 2019)

it sounds like your neighbor was determined to learn his lesson the hard way.good on you for offering to help him.thats what we're supposed to do even if it is a felony case of snowblower neglect.you did your part as a human being.hopefully the repair bill or sticker shock of a new machine will be the wake up call he needs to at least start covering the machine.sometimes the only way people will acquire any amount of mechanical empathy is through the financial hardship or inconvenience of physical labor it causes when the machine is no longer working.


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

But do they then come to the conclusion that "Brand X sucks"? And that's what they take from the experience?


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## LoudA4 (Nov 14, 2019)

RedOctobyr said:


> But do they then come to the conclusion that "Brand X sucks"? And that's what they take from the experience?


I hope not.if thats the case OP is going to have to move away if he ever wants to sleep again without the nightmares of tortured snowblowers out in cold with no blanket.like an ASPCA comercial. lol


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

LoudA4 said:


> I hope not.if thats the case OP is going to have to move away if he ever wants to sleep again without the nightmares of tortured snowblowers out in cold with no blanket.like an ASPCA comercial. lol




"In the arms of an Ariens...." 

-Sarah McLachlan


While it looks at you with sad, rusty shear bolts, shivering unprotected out in the elements.


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## orangputeh (Nov 24, 2016)

RedOctobyr said:


> But do they then come to the conclusion that "Brand X sucks"? And that's what they take from the experience?


you'll probably agree that the vast majority of problems with Honda's is caused by operator error or neglect. getting tired of trying to educate people and it seems like it's going in one ear and out the other.


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## SkunkyLawnmowers (Oct 18, 2018)

orangputeh said:


> you'll probably agree that the vast majority of problems with Honda's is caused by operator error or neglect. getting tired of trying to educate people and it seems like it's going in one ear and out the other.


What I have learnt thus far on my journey of discovery through things mechanical is this - 

That most owners of machinery - let's say machinery that uses the internal combustion engine - agree that they want the machine to do the work. It's after that that the problems start......

You then have a subgroup who want to protect their investment and keep up with scheduled (and unscheduled, my forte) mantennance. They are enlightened enough to realise that we are still using, basically, 100 year old tecnology in the shape of the internal combustion engine and that moving parts will fail quicker if you don't help them beat friction. 

You then have a further sub group of owners who, whether through straight mechanical ignorance or financial obstinance - I always suspect the latter - will do thing like run their cars out of oil and then blame the car for having "no oil warning light" or leave their machines exposed to the elements and then wonder why they won't start or are full of ice, etc....

Interrestingly, I have always felt that Honda especially go out of therir way to make machines - cars, motorcycles, blowers etc - that have the second sub group of owners in mind. I am convinced that behind closed doors engineers are always given the brief of "design an engine that will survive on oil change as long as possible". Not that they would use that as a selling point, but rather to try and achieve the acolade of being the manufacturer of bullet proof abuse proof engines. 

Ironically, I think that as cars and machinery get more sophisticated and try to be as maintenance free as possible, that the owners of those machines actually become more mechanically remote from them and more entreched in their view that the machine should just *work* and not need me, the ignorant owner, to have to worry about it. 

I think a higher proportion of owners had a higher degree of mechanical sympathy in the days before electronic ignition, fuel injection, etc. I think owners of those engines had a higher basic understanding that the engine needs to be manintained, basically. 

I am in London at the moment and have a car on hire that I can't stand - it wants to all the driving for me, wants to tell mne when I'm out of lane centre, etc. I actually phoned the car hire company and asked if they had something more basic like a van that I could use - they thought I was joking!!!


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## orangputeh (Nov 24, 2016)

bent intake valve.

with water in crankcase no surprise.


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## SkunkyLawnmowers (Oct 18, 2018)

orangputeh said:


> bent intake valve.



........which is actually more daunting than ice in the chamber from a suspected missing plug. You've got to really go some to bend a valve on these engines. It's too near my bed time to contemplate such scary scenarios!!


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## orangputeh (Nov 24, 2016)

I've seen bent push rods before. This owner told me it was running fine when he parked it after last storm and then would not start. Wouldn't a valve bend when the engine seizes?

Well, glad I did not offer to repair.


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## SkunkyLawnmowers (Oct 18, 2018)

orangputeh said:


> Wouldn't a valve bend when the engine seizes?


Bent valves - either the piston travels too far or the valve gets into a certain place at a certain time that it should not be.

My bet is he ran it out of oil and it overheated.


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## crazzywolfie (Jun 2, 2014)

i would guess water froze holding the valve open and when he went to fire it up it moved till it hit the valve and stopped and bent the valve.


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

Or if ice built up on the top of the piston, it might have whacked the valve when the engine was turned over the next time, if the ice slid up and banged into the valve. 

Sucks to hear about that sort of damage.


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## crazzywolfie (Jun 2, 2014)

pretty sure if there was ice build up on the piston it would have likely hit the exhaust valve since exhaust opens first and then intake opens as the piston is going down. definitely a bit more strange to hit an intake valve unless maybe it was sticking or being held open.


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## 2.137269 (Nov 15, 2019)

only time i ever saw intakes bend was when a OHC had the timing belt fail and jump time, other wise it most have had a big pile of frozen water , not much valve open during the period of time known as valve overlap when both are partly open


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## Shovel (Mar 26, 2019)

I have seen intake valves stuck open before on engines that have sit for a long time.. When you go to crank it .. it gets pushed open and the spring doesn't close the valve all the way. More apt to happen with an engine with tighter clearances. Fuel chemistry was being blamed.. Two different metals sitting in contact was another.. Oil another as the thin layer turned to gunk while sitting.. In this case good old fashioned water seems to be the culprit.. I still can not fathom how much water entered this engine by just being out in the weather. I believe something was missing that should have stayed on the machine.. dip stick.. oil plug.. carb cover.. spark plug.. something seems very odd

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