# Ford ST826 Help



## Thenervemann (Oct 23, 2013)

Hey guys,

I have an old Ford ST 826 which is not idling right and blows flames out the exhaust all the time. (has done that for years).

Figured I would try and fix it this year before I use it so I took apart the carb and cleaned it but now I am trying to re-tune it. Ok so there are two needle on it to adjust. One on the top and one on the bottom of the carb. I was wondering what each one did and how i go about adjusting it. I have no manuals or anything.


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## CarlB (Jan 2, 2011)

The needle near the top of the carb is the idle mixture adjustment, the one in the bottom of the bowl is the main jet mixture adjustment. If you are still having problems with flames coming out of the exhaust I would suspect a burnt exhaust valve, sticking exhaust valve, a bad exhaust valve seat or too little lifter to valve stem clearance on the exhaust valve.

Carl


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## Thenervemann (Oct 23, 2013)

CarlB said:


> The needle near the top of the carb is the idle mixture adjustment, the one in the bottom of the bowl is the main jet mixture adjustment. If you are still having problems with flames coming out of the exhaust I would suspect a burnt exhaust valve, sticking exhaust valve, a bad exhaust valve seat or too little lifter to valve stem clearance on the exhaust valve.
> 
> Carl


Thanks a lot! Yeah I was pretty sure that it had to do with the valves. Thanks for letting me know what each was called. I will do a little research and see if i can get it running decently at all. If not ill just tear it apart and go from there.


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## Simplicity Solid 22 (Nov 27, 2012)

That is a Nice Gilson/Ford you have there. Probably an 83-86. 
weighing between 265(1983)-310(1986) LBS. GustoGuy is in the process of restoring his Gilson with the similar 8HP as yours. 

Is the engine surging or???? If it is blowing flames it also sounds like you might be running to rich...adjust of air fuel mix screw might help. A good carb clean might be key before hitting valves...process of elimination.

if adjustable:

although a Briggs your carb is probably similar.


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## Thenervemann (Oct 23, 2013)

Ok i messed around with the carburetor, I didn't rebuild it, but I cleaned it out really good and put 93 supreme gas in it. It worked pretty good at first as soon as it started getting hot i noticed the back fire and flames coming out again. I think it just got the gunk in the valves sticky and it wasn't running well. so now my question is. Does anyone know what kind of engine is on it. i searched some information and it seemed to not really come up with much. I want to tear it down and re build it but i need a gasket and stuff. Also does anyone know where i can get a rebuild kit for the carb?


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## micah68kj (Oct 8, 2011)

It'd be real nice to see a couple pics and maybe get some numbers from the engine? What kind of engine? Does the engine look lime this one?


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## Thenervemann (Oct 23, 2013)

micah68kj said:


> It'd be real nice to see a couple pics and maybe get some numbers from the engine? What kind of engine? I'm guessing it's an 8 H.P Briggs?


Ok ill see what i can do tonight. I should also stop being lazy and figure what the relation between ford and gilson is too.


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## Thenervemann (Oct 23, 2013)

micah68kj said:


> It'd be real nice to see a couple pics and maybe get some numbers from the engine? What kind of engine? Does the engine look lime this one?


Yup looks just like that i think.

So far I:
Got 93 Supreme gas
New Fuel filter (old one was starving it)
New fuel line
Cleaned fuel tank out
Cleaned Carburetor out completely (didn't rebuild any gaskets)
cleaned spark plug


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## Shryp (Jan 1, 2011)

You don't need to replace any gaskets as long as they don't leak. 

It could be that the valves expand when they get hot and then don't close fully. That would be a valve adjustment issue. You would have to take them out and grind the ends off the stems until you get the right clearance with the lifters. I have read about that happening quite often with the smaller 5 HP Tecumsehs.

Gilson was a manufacturer who made their own blowers and also made some for other companies. Ford was one company that bought blowers from Gilson, painted them blue and then put their name on them.


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## Thenervemann (Oct 23, 2013)

OH that makes sense! ok so would it be a Gilson st826 then?


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## micah68kj (Oct 8, 2011)

That's what I think you're dealing with. A Gilson 826. Thats a pretty simple carb. The pic I posted was my old Gilson.


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## Thenervemann (Oct 23, 2013)

ah ok cool im gonna do some research then and come back and let you guys know what i find.


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## micah68kj (Oct 8, 2011)

Google thi page and you will find everything you need.
The Gilson Snowblower shop.


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## micah68kj (Oct 8, 2011)

There's a manual for your blower on ebay right now. Sixteen bucks. Go over to ebay and snag that thing!


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## Thenervemann (Oct 23, 2013)

ha alright ill look into it!


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## GustoGuy (Nov 19, 2012)

Thenervemann said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I have an old Ford ST 826 which is not idling right and blows flames out the exhaust all the time. (has done that for years).
> 
> Figured I would try and fix it this year before I use it so I took apart the carb and cleaned it but now I am trying to re-tune it. Ok so there are two needle on it to adjust. One on the top and one on the bottom of the carb. I was wondering what each one did and how i go about adjusting it. I have no manuals or anything.


 The 2 piece (3 bolt attachment top to the base) Flo-jet Briggs and Stratton carburetor are often known to be a bit problematic for leaks at the float needle valve and the base of the emulsion tube where it comes out in to the interior of the carb. If the needle valve itself is in decent shape you can often take a Q-tip and clean the interior of the float needle seat and then clean it out with Carburetor cleaner and adjust the float level to be parallel to the top part of the carburetor when holding it upside down. Also if you are not able to tune it with the main jet adjustment if could be that it is leaking at the base of the e-tube were it passes through the center of the carburetor up to the top jet which is the idle circuit. Remove the e-tube and take a q-tip and clean the seat area with carburetor cleaner and the q-tip. If it appears rough up there you may need to use a small amount of polishing compound to smooth up the seat so the e-tube brass seat will make good contact and stop the leak. Some have used a small amount of yellow Teflon tape or a small Teflon washer that you can buy from Briggs and Stratton to seal gas tank threaded lines that you use for gas pipe threads and grab the tape and pull it into a thin string and wrap it right at the seat area on the e-tube. Thread it into the carburetor and check to see that the small amount of yellow tape is slightly showing through the base of the e-tube when looking into the carburetor. This will seal any potential leak there that could allow un metered gasoline to be drawn up with the mixture. Also check to see if the base of the carburetor comes together tightly with the top of the carburetor. Occasionally they have been known to warp and this usually causes a small leak into the venturi area at the seam between the top and base of the carburetor. Causing it to run erratically and usually very rich. good luck I am dealing with mine and I replaced the needle valve and the seat. It may be leaking at the base of the e-tube and I will need to deal with that and replace the spark plug and maybe the oil too if it is gassed up.


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## Thenervemann (Oct 23, 2013)

GustoGuy said:


> The 2 piece (3 bolt attachment top to the base) Flo-jet Briggs and Stratton carburetor are often known to be a bit problematic for leaks at the float needle valve and the base of the emulsion tube where it comes out in to the interior of the carb. If the needle valve itself is in decent shape you can often take a Q-tip and clean the interior of the float needle seat and then clean it out with Carburetor cleaner and adjust the float level to be parallel to the top part of the carburetor when holding it upside down. Also if you are not able to tune it with the main jet adjustment if could be that it is leaking at the base of the e-tube were it passes through the center of the carburetor up to the top jet which is the idle circuit. Remove the e-tube and take a q-tip and clean the seat area with carburetor cleaner and the q-tip. If it appears rough up there you may need to use a small amount of polishing compound to smooth up the seat so the e-tube brass seat will make good contact and stop the leak. Some have used a small amount of yellow Teflon tape or a small Teflon washer that you can buy from Briggs and Stratton to seal gas tank threaded lines that you use for gas pipe threads and grab the tape and pull it into a thin string and wrap it right at the seat area on the e-tube. Thread it into the carburetor and check to see that the small amount of yellow tape is slightly showing through the base of the e-tube when looking into the carburetor. This will seal any potential leak there that could allow un metered gasoline to be drawn up with the mixture. Also check to see if the base of the carburetor comes together tightly with the top of the carburetor. Occasionally they have been known to warp and this usually causes a small leak into the venturi area at the seam between the top and base of the carburetor. Causing it to run erratically and usually very rich. good luck I am dealing with mine and I replaced the needle valve and the seat. It may be leaking at the base of the e-tube and I will need to deal with that and replace the spark plug and maybe the oil too if it is gassed up.


Thanks, I will look at it on Saturday hopefully and follow exactly what you said! Where did you get part numbers for the needle valve and stuff (or are they just basically universal)? I also found that mine is Model 09GN5164 and Type 03 and was purchased November 17th 1987. Is there a specific parts manual for this model or is there one that covers all the models for a few years? I did fine the original operator's manual though after a bit of garage searching.


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## Thenervemann (Oct 23, 2013)

And will this have the part numbers and break down of the parts?


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## td5771 (Feb 21, 2011)

for engine parts briggs and stratton provides manuals for free. just need the engine numbers that are stamped in the recoil housing. I have a website with clear in color pictures and directions on carb rebuilding. 

at the very least check the valve adjustment. you only have to remove the side plate on the engine that has the breather tube in it to access the valve springs and stems. you can check them with a feeler gauge.

Some may have had other experience but a miss adjusted carb doesnt cause flames through the exhaust. A partial open exhaust valve or a partially shear flywheel key will.

If you get the engine numbers I will post the manual link for the engine as well as the carb rebuild link.


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## Thenervemann (Oct 23, 2013)

td5771 said:


> for engine parts briggs and stratton provides manuals for free. just need the engine numbers that are stamped in the recoil housing. I have a website with clear in color pictures and directions on carb rebuilding.
> 
> at the very least check the valve adjustment. you only have to remove the side plate on the engine that has the breather tube in it to access the valve springs and stems. you can check them with a feeler gauge.
> 
> ...


Okay, it looks like my father wrote down three numbers:

MODEL: 190402 1001 
TYPE: 03
CODE: 79071012

I do not know if those are the numbers of interest for you to find the manual link, if not I will look at it later today when I get home to see if i can find exactly what you need. (I am at work right now)


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## sscotsman (Dec 8, 2010)

Thenervemann said:


> OH that makes sense! ok so would it be a Gilson st826 then?


essentially yes..
but it might be more accurate to say its a "Ford ST826 made by Gilson"

Similar to how a Mercury is a Ford, and a Dodge is a Chrysler..
but you would say: "This is my Dodge Ram pickup (made by Chrysler)"..
you wouldnt say you have a "Chrysler Ram pickup".

Its not a perfect analogy, because Ford owned Mercury, and Chrysler owns Dodge..but Gilson didnt own Ford! 
but you get the idea..

Scot


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## Thenervemann (Oct 23, 2013)

Okay I took it apart. Got the valves out, they aren't sitting very well and it was obvious the exhaust wasn't closing all the way (was able to shine a light right through the gap). It looks like someone put an insert in the valve guide though in the past I do not know if that will affect it much. Im gonna get the valves seats and the valves resurfaced and see how it goes. I will keep you guys updated!


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## Thenervemann (Oct 23, 2013)

You can see the Exhaust valve seat isn't shiny


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## GustoGuy (Nov 19, 2012)

Are you just going to steel wool that exhaust valve stem and grind a tiny amount off the end of the valve stem and see if it seals better? Or are you going to order a new valve? Let us know if it makes a big difference on reducing the flames that come out the exhaust. How much will it cost to replace the valve seats and have the valves resurfaced?


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## Shryp (Jan 1, 2011)

Can't you just use some valve lapping compound on them, or are they too far gone?


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## Thenervemann (Oct 23, 2013)

GustoGuy said:


> Are you just going to steel wool that exhaust valve stem and grind a tiny amount off the end of the valve stem and see if it seals better? Or are you going to order a new valve? Let us know if it makes a big difference on reducing the flames that come out the exhaust. How much will it cost to replace the valve seats and have the valves resurfaced?


I plan on just bringing it to a small engine repair shop around my area and see if they can just do it real fast. I mean I have everything apart, I don't think it would be much. If it was a car I'd invest in some equipment to do it. 



Shryp said:


> Can't you just use some valve lapping compound on them, or are they too far gone?


I do not think they are too far gone, they just are a little off. But I can't tell you for sure since I am not an expert in the field haha. When I get the parts back from the shop I'll let you know.


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## Spectrum (Jan 6, 2013)

sscotsman said:


> essentially yes..
> but it might be more accurate to say its a "Ford ST826 made by Gilson"


Funny how perspectives vary.....
The machine is a Gilson modified and branded for Ford.


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## Thenervemann (Oct 23, 2013)

Spectrum said:


> Funny how perspectives vary.....
> The machine is a Gilson modified and branded for Ford.


Oh well I get the gist of it. 


But I called the shop, they said it would be about 35-65 bucks to re-seat everything. I will probably drop it off this weekend if I get the chance. Hope it all goes well.


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## Spectrum (Jan 6, 2013)

That's not bad since without the tools the valve springs can be a PITA. Even with the tools they are a trick if you do them only occasionally.


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## sscotsman (Dec 8, 2010)

sscotsman said:


> but it might be more accurate to say its a "Ford ST826 made by Gilson"
> Scot





Spectrum said:


> Funny how perspectives vary.....
> The machine is a Gilson modified and branded for Ford.


Isnt that what I said? 

Scot


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## Thenervemann (Oct 23, 2013)

ALRIGHT finally got it back from the shop. I need to put her back together. hopefully be done by end of next week. This is a long process haha. Hope it runs right!


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## Thenervemann (Oct 23, 2013)

Ok i got it all together guys. But i need help again...

I re-cleaned the carb. I mean that thing is spotless.

I have spark no problem

I get tons of gas pouring out of the carb when i just keep it on choke. however im not getting any gas in the cylinder at all. its just dry. But idk what could be restricting it since the carb worked fine before and i even cleaned it again. I also put a little gas into the spark plug hole and tried to start it with not even one stroke. the gas just shot out the exhaust.

Im at a loss...

is there any kind of valve timing or adjustment i dont know about?

thanks in advance.


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## td5771 (Feb 21, 2011)

i cant see gas not getting in the cylinder and being able to come out the exhaust.

I would turn the gas off. dry out the carb, pull it over with no plug. dry plug and a little starter fluid and see what happens


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## Thenervemann (Oct 23, 2013)

td5771 said:


> i cant see gas not getting in the cylinder and being able to come out the exhaust.
> 
> I would turn the gas off. dry out the carb, pull it over with no plug. dry plug and a little starter fluid and see what happens


IM sorry....when i put gas into the spark plug it just shoots out of the exhuast.


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## td5771 (Feb 21, 2011)

Thats because it is an L head, if you look into the spark plug hole the spark plug sits partially on top of the valves, the cylinder is off to the side.

dry it out with no gas and try the starter fluid. that will tell you if it is a gas issue or not.

did you adjust the valves or the shop?


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## Thenervemann (Oct 23, 2013)

td5771 said:


> Thats because it is an L head, if you look into the spark plug hole the spark plug sits partially on top of the valves, the cylinder is off to the side.
> 
> dry it out with no gas and try the starter fluid. that will tell you if it is a gas issue or not.
> 
> did you adjust the valves or the shop?


Ok ill get some starter fluid and try that tomorrow.

I brought it to the shop and had them reseat them.

The mentioned something about adjusting something with the valves but i didnt really pay attention since i was in a rush and assumed i could just throw it together and it would work.


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## Thenervemann (Oct 23, 2013)

Ok. tried the starter fluid

Made sure the spark plug sparked..sparks like crazy
Sprayed it directly down the plug hole..Nothing
took car off completely and spray it down the plug hole..nothing
Check for any kind of short/unintentional ground..nothing
im really stumped..


Yesterday i got some back fire out the carb but that was it. nothing else and that happened once ever 20 pulls maybe

Disregard above:

I put a ton of starter fluid in the hole. It just shoots flames out the carb and exahust. BUt thats it, its not compressing or anything or turning over just shooting flames. 

Is there a way that timing could be off/ adjusted that i dont know about. it ran before i got the valves done.


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## Shryp (Jan 1, 2011)

Wonder if you have a valve stuck open. Do you feel any compression when pulling the rope? What about pulling the spark plug and holding your finger in the hole? does pulling the cord push your finger out?


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## db9938 (Nov 17, 2013)

Yes, but that would mean a total disassembly, that is if it truly out of time. 

One way to check, is to remove the shroud form the engine, and take the head off. 

(You may need a new head gasket after this, and some say replace the head gasket no matter what, you be the judge.)

Slowly rotate the engine over to the point that piston is at its highest point. (flush or near flush with the top of the block.)

At this point both of your valves should be completely closed. You should not be able to turn them by pressing down and twisting them with your finger. 

If they are fully extended at this point, or some where in the middle, it is out of time and well it is going to be more work. 

If on the other hand, the valve is lowered to it's lowest point, but still does not make contact, then then they will need adjusted(ground).

I would also ensure that the valve seats have not dislodged, I've seen that happen. 

Hope it helps.


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## Thenervemann (Oct 23, 2013)

Shryp said:


> Wonder if you have a valve stuck open. Do you feel any compression when pulling the rope? What about pulling the spark plug and holding your finger in the hole? does pulling the cord push your finger out?


When i pull the string and put my finger on the plug hole lightly yeah it will blow it out. but when i just push really hard it wont push it out.


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## Thenervemann (Oct 23, 2013)

db9938 said:


> Yes, but that would mean a total disassembly, that is if it truly out of time.
> 
> One way to check, is to remove the shroud form the engine, and take the head off.
> 
> ...


Ok did what you said. but when i do the thing where i press them down with my finger and turn I am able to. What does this mean?


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## Shryp (Jan 1, 2011)

If you have both valves closed and can turn them that means they need ground down a bit. You have to pull the breather cover off the side (should be 2 bolts with a black plastic tube going down), then remove the retaining clips from the springs and pull out the valves and grind the stem down slightly.


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## Thenervemann (Oct 23, 2013)

Thanks man...you would think that when they reseat the valves they would do that for me..

Ok so heres how it goes:

Intake:
When piston is at its peak: Inlet valve is already partially open, exhaust is not all the way down and can be turned with finger (but this is as far down as the exhaust goes.
As it goes down the inlet stays open then closes (pretty well) when its all the way down
compression. both closed but exhaust still doesnt sit all the way
explosion.
exhaust opens as it should to let out exhaust.


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## Shryp (Jan 1, 2011)

Thenervemann said:


> Thanks man...you would think that when they reseat the valves they would do that for me..


They should. If you don't have the fancy tool you can get by with a screwdriver, just be careful.


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## Thenervemann (Oct 23, 2013)

Should they be flush on the top of compression and intake stroke? I assume not.


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## Kiss4aFrog (Nov 3, 2013)

That tool is a loaner from some of the auto parts stores. Ask for it at the counter, leave a deposit and get your $$$ back when you return tool.
.


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## db9938 (Nov 17, 2013)

Thenervemann said:


> Should they be flush on the top of compression and intake stroke? I assume not.


No. 

Do they ever make contact with the valve seats at any point of the rotation?

If so, then I spoke too quickly, you have a timing issue. 

I would also add, that in lieu of a flat blade screw driver, I have always used a simple boxed ended wrench. Half-inch or so, with the lock in a position to allow you to slide it off as you lift up on the wrench.


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## Thenervemann (Oct 23, 2013)

OKAYYYY guys. 

Finally got it back. He reseated the valves for free since it should have been done. Got it tuned up and its running strong.. 

Now I want snow!


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## GustoGuy (Nov 19, 2012)

Thenervemann said:


> OKAYYYY guys.
> 
> Finally got it back. He reseated the valves for free since it should have been done. Got it tuned up and its running strong..
> 
> Now I want snow!


Good to hear. I may want to try to rebuild my old oil burning 8hp Flat head Briggs on my Gilson made Montgomery Ward later or a may just part out the engine. Good to hear you have it running good. I restored my machine but I was disapointed in how the engine ran. I would like to see it in it's glory but I know it needs new valve seats since it puffs blue smoke on start up and puffs every once and a while while runing and the spark plug gets carboned up most likely due to the oil burning. How much did it cost you to repair the old engine?


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## Thenervemann (Oct 23, 2013)

GustoGuy said:


> Good to hear. I may want to try to rebuild my old oil burning 8hp Flat head Briggs on my Gilson made Montgomery Ward later or a may just part out the engine. Good to hear you have it running good. I restored my machine but I was disapointed in how the engine ran. I would like to see it in it's glory but I know it needs new valve seats since it puffs blue smoke on start up and puffs every once and a while while runing and the spark plug gets carboned up most likely due to the oil burning. How much did it cost you to repair the old engine?


The engine really only needed a valve adjustment which was 65 bucks. included the valves reseated and sealing correctly. I ended up paying the guy another 30 for carb clean and tune. now it works great. I only had it tuned since i was too lazy to put any more time into it since im so busy right now with my new job and commuting.


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