# kick back when starting



## AL- (Oct 27, 2014)

I've just got an HM80-155128E back together. When I tried to pull started it the engine kicked back and yanked very hard on my arm. I got it started and it runs ok but most of the time I that tried restarting it would kick back and really yank. I 'm thinking it fires at the wrong time. I've have had the flywheel off to clean and paint the rusted blower housing baffle and then torqued it back on and the key seemed fine , although I didn't examine it that closely. It seemed to line up ok but I now wondering if it was loose. History of the main repair is that it was given to me by a friend who told me that it had just stopped. When I took it apart there was small screw from the throttle plate that had got sucked up and bounced around on top of the piston and even bent the exhaust valve. 

Unless someone can give be me more of a solution I thinking I need to take the flywheel off again and check the key/keyway as a starting point?

Thanks for any input


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## Blackfin (Jan 25, 2016)

That kind of kick back often points to a flywheel key that's sheared resulting in overly-advanced spark timing.

It can also point to excessive carbon in the combustion chamber. If this happens when the engine is hot it might mean that some of this carbon is glowing hot enough to ignite the charge early (preignition); this can also produce a nasty kick.

I'd start by re-checking (and replacing) the flywheel key.


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

Another vote for checking the flywheel key. 

When you reinstalled the flywheel, did you use a torque wrench to tighten the flywheel nut? If the nut is too loose, you can shear the flywheel key, since the flywheel is largely held in proper alignment by friction against the crankshaft.


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## bwright1818 (Dec 2, 2014)

When you figure it out, please post; because I have an HM100 doing the same thing. I have not got back into it deeply, yet, because I need it to move snow with it....but I used a torque wrench; that much I know. Once it starts, it runs great. But it will kick back a good number of times before it does. I am talking about a kick back that will draw an Ariens ST1032 clear off the ground, if you are holding on good. It also totally destroyed an aftermarket starter handle, from being whipped against the recoil housing a few times.


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## AL- (Oct 27, 2014)

bwright1818 said:


> When you figure it out, please post; because I have an HM100 doing the same thing. I have not got back into it deeply, yet, because I need it to move snow with it....but I used a torque wrench; that much I know. Once it starts, it runs great. But it will kick back a good number of times before it does. I am talking about a kick back that will draw an Ariens ST1032 clear off the ground, if you are holding on good. It also totally destroyed an aftermarket starter handle, from being whipped against the recoil housing a few times.


Yes, a very hard yank! I started mine 3 times and it kicked back a couple of times before each start. I think it could easily break the recoil starter plastic parts inside. 
I used a torque wrench and had the head off and cleaned carbon deposits,flatten the head , lapped the valves, ground the clearances, and cleaned the carburetor and adjusted air gap clearance (it has solid state ignition). 
It had an electric starter on it but that was shot when I got it.


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

If you cleaned off the carbon, and it also happens when cold, then there should really only be 1 cause that comes to mind, the spark firing too early. 

That would be either the flywheel key being sheared for some reason, or the ignition timing otherwise being off. But it's hard to think of why the timing would be off, apart from the flywheel key. The coil position typically isn't adjustable. Unless somehow failing ignition components could make it fire early, but that doesn't sound likely to me. 

The kickback sounds nasty, though, sorry  I've been lucky, I haven't had an engine do that do me; it sounds like that could do something unpleasant to your shoulder. Good luck, please let us know what you find.


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## nwcove (Mar 2, 2015)

im a two stroke guy, so this question is fwiw....could a tooth out on the cam timing cause kickback?


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

nwcove said:


> im a two stroke guy, so this question is fwiw....could a tooth out on the cam timing cause kickback?


I don't think so. 

If the valve clearances checked out correctly, then the compression release should presumably be working properly. 

Even if the compression release wasn't working right (such as the cam timing being off), resulting in full compression while pulling the cord, I'd *expect* that the result would just be that the cord is harder to pull. You'd be fighting full compression, rather than the typical reduced compression that is courtesy of the release. 

But even at full compression, the fuel charge shouldn't just self-ignite, it should still require the spark. If full compression alone was enough to make it self-ignite (pre-detonation, or pinging), then the engine would be doing that constantly while running, since the compression release is disabled at operating RPMs. 

Merely my :2cents:....


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## AL- (Oct 27, 2014)

RedOctobyr said:


> If you cleaned off the carbon, and it also happens when cold, then there should really only be 1 cause that comes to mind, the spark firing too early.
> 
> That would be either the flywheel key being sheared for some reason, or the ignition timing otherwise being off. But it's hard to think of why the timing would be off, apart from the flywheel key. The coil position typically isn't adjustable. Unless somehow failing ignition components could make it fire early, but that doesn't sound likely to me.
> 
> The kickback sounds nasty, though, sorry  I've been lucky, I haven't had an engine do that do me; it sounds like that could do something unpleasant to your shoulder. Good luck, please let us know what you find.


I do remember torqueing it, and I took the key out but didn't closely examine it ( wish now I had :banghead: ) and then later stuck it back in with shaft groove being up - seemed to fit ok, then stuck on flywheel and torqued it. I bet the next time I'll make sure how good it all fits. Hope to pick a new one up tomorrow . Should know more next week. Thanks


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

Merely a guess on my part, but I'd think that if the flywheel key didn't look obviously distorted when you removed it, then it was probably OK at the time. If it was only a little bit distorted, but not obviously, that might equate to maybe 1 degree of timing, if even that? 

Don't get me wrong, definitely check the key. I'm just thinking that the problem is probably not because you didn't put the key on a granite surface plate in order to perfectly check its flatness  It still could have sheared due to something else. 

This is probably old news, but when torquing a bolt, it's best to tighten it all at once, as you approach the intended torque. If you need 50 ft-lb, but stop temporarily at 40 ft-lb, you may not get an accurate result. The coefficient of static friction is almost always higher than the coefficient of sliding friction. So if you torque to 40 ft-lbs, then stop twisting, the nut/bolt will stop turning. When you twist the wrench again, the nut/bolt not may not actually start to move again before the wrench reaches 50 ft-lb. But you've really only effectively torqued it to 40 ft-lbs, despite the wrench reading 50 ft-lbs. As it starts to tighten up, try to keep the nut/bolt moving until you reach the desired torque. 

I had an old Simplicity like the one in your profile pic. That thing was a tank, the geared transmission was my favorite part. No slipping, ever, and with chains on the solid tires, it was almost unstoppable. Too bad mine was a tired 5hp, with a lot of worn parts, leading to reliability problems.


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## suspicionogignorance3 (Jun 12, 2014)

Wondering if the coil is mistakenly mounted upside down....?


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## AL- (Oct 27, 2014)

suspicionogignorance3 said:


> Wondering if the coil is mistakenly mounted upside down....?


Newer solid state and is horse shoe shaped with air gap at bottom that I set. I'm suspicious of the unit too but think its good, the guy that gave it to me ran it. Engine came off a 1990's craftsman


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## AL- (Oct 27, 2014)

RedOctobyr said:


> Merely a guess on my part, but I'd think that if the flywheel key didn't look obviously distorted when you removed it, then it was probably OK at the time. If it was only a little bit distorted, but not obviously, that might equate to maybe 1 degree of timing, if even that?
> 
> Don't get me wrong, definitely check the key. I'm just thinking that the problem is probably not because you didn't put the key on a granite surface plate in order to perfectly check its flatness  It still could have sheared due to something else.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the torqueing info. and not old news here - bet that's my problem! Something about the way I did the torqueing seemed wrong .. not tight enough. 

I like the feel of geared transmissions.


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## bad69cat (Nov 30, 2015)

I think you will find it once you pull the flywheel...... can't see how it would be anything else really?


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## E350 (Apr 21, 2015)

RedOctobyr said:


> [W]hen torquing a bolt, it's best to tighten it all at once, as you approach the intended torque. If you need 50 ft-lb, but stop temporarily at 40 ft-lb, you may not get an accurate result. The coefficient of static friction is almost always higher than the coefficient of sliding friction. So if you torque to 40 ft-lbs, then stop twisting, the nut/bolt will stop turning. When you twist the wrench again, the nut/bolt not may not actually start to move again before the wrench reaches 50 ft-lb. But you've really only effectively torqued it to 40 ft-lbs, despite the wrench reading 50 ft-lbs. As it starts to tighten up, try to keep the nut/bolt moving until you reach the desired torque.


Makes sense to me now. But I have never considered it before your post. Thanks.


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## Grunt (Nov 11, 2013)

I agree with the sheared key theory. Also, never add grease or anti-seize to the shaft when installing the flywheel. The key and friction hold it tight.


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## 94EG8 (Feb 13, 2014)

Generally either the flywheel key is partially sheared or the valve clearance is too loose.



nwcove said:


> im a two stroke guy, so this question is fwiw....could a tooth out on the cam timing cause kickback?


Absolutely. Back when Tecumseh first released the 12HP OHV Snow King engines in '88 - '89 They had issues with engines kicking back. The fix was to retard the mechanical timing one tooth.


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

94EG8 said:


> Absolutely. Back when Tecumseh first released the 12HP OHV Snow King engines in '88 - '89 They had issues with engines kicking back. The fix was to retard the mechanical timing one tooth.


One tooth on the cam? What does that do, how does it help fix the issue? 

If what you're describing makes the intake valve close later, for instance, then I guess that could reduce the compression somewhat. It might let some of the fuel charge vent out back towards the carb, as the piston could start to come up again, before the intake valve closed. But if this was what was happening, it would seem like this would also reduce power.


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## 94EG8 (Feb 13, 2014)

RedOctobyr said:


> One tooth on the cam? What does that do, how does it help fix the issue?


The way those engines were setup the mechanical timing was so far advanced that you'd end up with pre-ignition causing kickback. You could watch the exhaust glow cherry red at night. It does not reduce compression. And in those engines it doesn't reduce power since they were spec'd too far advanced to start with. Retard mechanical timing on anything else and you will have reduced power output.


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

94EG8 said:


> The way those engines were setup the mechanical timing was so far advanced that you'd end up with pre-ignition causing kickback. You could watch the exhaust glow cherry red at night. It does not reduce compression. And in those engines it doesn't reduce power since they were spec'd too far advanced to start with. Retard mechanical timing on anything else and you will have reduced power output.


So the tooth you're talking about is not related to the valve cam timing, but is related to the ignition timing? 

I'm trying to picture what tooth this is. I never really had to fiddle with the ignition on my Tecs, but as I recall, the coil just mounted to 2 bolts. And that therefore the timing wasn't adjustable, but was simply fixed. 

I'm not trying to argue, I'm just trying to understand.


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## AL- (Oct 27, 2014)

Grunt said:


> I agree with the sheared key theory. Also, never add grease or anti-seize to the shaft when installing the flywheel. The key and friction hold it tight.


You read my mind. I put a light coat of oil on the shaft and thinking I should clean it off when I take it apart. Thanks for confirming! 

Might come off easy anyway.


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## Blackfin (Jan 25, 2016)

94EG8 said:


> The way those engines were setup the mechanical timing was so far advanced that you'd end up with pre-ignition causing kickback. You could watch the exhaust glow cherry red at night.


Pre-ignition is caused by incandescent sources of ignition (e.g. carbon deposits, spark plug electrodes) lighting off the mixture before the spark. An overly advanced spark by definition can't really cause "pre-ignition".

Glowing exhaust components, in my experience, has generally pointed to one or both of _retarded_ ignition timing or very high EGTs from a lean fuel mixture.

How was spark timing adjusted on those engines?


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## 94EG8 (Feb 13, 2014)

Blackfin said:


> How was spark timing adjusted on those engines?


It isn't. The coil is in a fixed position.


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

AL- said:


> You read my mind. I put a light coat of oil on the shaft and thinking I should clean it off when I take it apart. Thanks for confirming!
> 
> Might come off easy anyway.


Uh-oh  Yeah, thoroughly clean all the oil off the tapered part of the crankshaft, and flywheel's taper. The friction is much of what keeps the flywheel from moving, and shearing the key. 

I do put anti-seize on the crankshaft threads for the flywheel nut, you can do that after re-installing the flywheel, to avoid accidentally getting any on the flywheel's taper. 

Your problem is most likely a sheared flywheel key, I'm hoping. At least that's simple and cheap to fix. Let us know what you find!


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## KennyW in CT (Feb 24, 2015)

Not to beat a dead horse but I'll add my .02 on crankshaft cleanliness. If I have a rusty crank/flywheel assembly I will scotch-brite out the major gunk by hand then apply a fine grit lapping compound and spin the flywheel on the crank (no key of course) until I get 100 percent coverage. I clean with acetone and then hot soapy water to make sure nothing is left on the surfaces (just like you do after honing a block). Anything on the crankshaft, like oil, will compress when you tighten the two together, then slowly wick out of the end gaps creating a clearance between the two which will ultimately cause the key to shear. Sometimes a gap between crank and flywheel will sound like a rod knocking as the flywheel shifts fore and aft on the crank, similar to an excessive crank endplay condition. Also, NEVER put Loctite on a crank thinking it will make it better. I had a customer who didn't have a key so he red loctited the crank to the flywheel. When he tried starting it after it sat a few days it nearly puled his arm off so he figured he'd just give in and put in a key. He ended up breaking the flywheel in half with a puller as the Loctite did its job and the two were together forever.


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## wheelhorseboy (May 30, 2014)

On there suggestions about the coil, i think they mean did you accidentally flip it over? A specific side faces the cylinder, an one faces out, they can be accidentally installed backwards. Most coils have the ground tab facing the engine, if your ground wire is clipped to the top, most likely it was installed upside down.


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## AL- (Oct 27, 2014)

wheelhorseboy said:


> On there suggestions about the coil, i think they mean did you accidentally flip it over? A specific side faces the cylinder, an one faces out, they can be accidentally installed backwards. Most coils have the ground tab facing the engine, if your ground wire is clipped to the top, most likely it was installed upside down.


as reinstalled ?


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## nt40lanman (Dec 31, 2012)

If he took it off and put it back, the natural curve of the wire would lead towards proper assembly.

I helped a friend with his. He seemed to have no compression release. I swapped in another cam and it was a lot better. Compression release mechanism and valve clearance could be an issue.


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## AL- (Oct 27, 2014)

94EG8 said:


> Generally either the flywheel key is partially sheared or the valve clearance is too loose.
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely. Back when Tecumseh first released the 12HP OHV Snow King engines in '88 - '89 They had issues with engines kicking back. The fix was to retard the mechanical timing one tooth.


Not lucky, still kicks back the same as before, with new key( and old key seemed OK) so thinking this might not be the problem. 
Since it had a bent valve (exhaust) that I replaced and lapped both valves and ground new clearances I'm thinking next of taking 94EG8 & nt40lanman advise from this thread and start and recheck my valve clearances. I probably made them too loose with the feeler gauge thinking they could wear a bit. I remember the one I didn't replace (inlet valve) had very little clearance. I not sure about the theory, but thinking the pre-ignition would be caused mainly by the intake valve ? if someone would confirm or explain this, also other suggestions would be appreciated.


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## wheelhorseboy (May 30, 2014)

Did you get those valve clearances checked?


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## AL- (Oct 27, 2014)

wheelhorseboy said:


> Did you get those valve clearances checked?


Not yet... but soon hopefully.

Also trying to understand why loose valve clearance causes pre-ignition. Reading a lot but no luck. 
With a loose intake valve clearance the duration of the valve opening would decrease, both near TDC and at BDC. I visualize two different options, a lean mix because of the shorter duration or maybe a rich mix because you prime just before cranking. Which of these options, etc. cause pre-ignition in a cold engine I don't understand?


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

I'm not coming up with a good reason either, for why loose valve clearances would causing pre-ignition in a cold engine. 

A possible test to try: 
- Get the engine ready to start, the normal process. 
- Now disconnect the spark plug wire. 
- Try to start the engine (pull the cord normally). 

What happens? 

If it still kicks back, it clearly has nothing to do with ignition timing, your coil, etc. It might be something causing the compression ratio to be too high (higher than it's designed to be), resulting in pre-ignition. 

A loose exhaust valve clearance will make the compression release less-effective, and you'll have to pull harder, since you're fighting up to full compression. But even having full compression shouldn't cause pre-ignition, IMO. If it did, you'd presumably be getting pre-ignition on every cycle, since at operating speed, the compression release is disabled.

Edit- What octane fuel are you using? Lower-octane fuel is easier to self-ignite. These kind of small engines should be perfectly fine with 87 octane, but it seems worth asking.


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## AL- (Oct 27, 2014)

I use a non ethanol high octane, but have no number. Also read from several web sites to get a consensus .

"_A high octane fuel is more resistant to self-ignition. A higher rating octane fuel can be compressed (along with air) more without detonating as a result from heat compression. 
the spark can fire well before the piston reaches TDC on the compression stroke. The reason is because it takes time for the flame front to expand out to combust the air/fuel mixture.(molecules are closer together)"

_I tried to start the engine with SP wire disconnected and no result, also I can shut the engine off when it is running with the switch. 

This morning I primed the engine and started it on the first pull with no kick-back and let it run for a few minutes then shut it off and tried to start it again (now warm) without priming . in three tries it kicked-back twice and backfired. 
At noon I primed it (again cold) and it started on first pull with no kick-back. 

I think when cold and primed the mixture is rich but when hot and no prime the mixture is lean and I get kick-back.

I'll finish putting the engine back together I'm working on and then get back to this one and check the valve clearance. I 'll be very surprised if its not loose. Post later on this and thanks for the input!


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

Good info. If it was me, I'd try running it to get it hot. Then shut it down, pull the plug wire, and try starting it, see if it still kicks back. 

If you can reproduce the kick-back while hot, you might also try priming it when hot, then trying to start it with the plug wire connected. See if priming it is part of what's making the difference, vs being just hot or cold.


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## Blackfin (Jan 25, 2016)

If all else checks out you might want to think about checking to make sure the compression release mechanism (CRM) is operating properly.

Sorry, don't have time to read through the entire thread at the moment: Did you perform a compression test while pulling through with the recoil starter? If so, were the readings _higher_ than you'd expect for an engine with a CRM?


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## AL- (Oct 27, 2014)

No kick-back when hot and plug wire removed.

Cranking gets me about 80 lbs , I thought it might be higher but from a cold start it starts and runs well, so I guess CRM is working, can't really tell what kind of compression engine these are.


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

From what you observed, I would conclude that the kickback problem is something with the ignition system contributing to the issue, not "pure" self-ignition. 

As points of reference on compression, I had 2 machines with HMSK80 engines. One was giving about 40 psi with the pull-starter. This was before I ground the exhaust valve, whose clearance was too-tight. I'm pretty sure I checked the compression again after grinding the valve, but I don't seem to have documented it. The other was about 60 psi with the pull-starter. 

I also have an OHSK100, it was showing about 30-35 psi after setting the valve clearances and installing a new head gasket, also with the pull-starter. The reading is lower than the others, but I can only assume they made the compression release more pronounced on these engines, since I also measured the cylinder bore diameter, and it was very good, so I don't think it's just a tired engine. The engine has also run strong. 

Just to mention it, they all showed significantly higher compression when using their electric starters. 140 psi, 130 psi, and 80 psi, respectively. So *just* experiencing higher compression (>80 psi) during the starting process wasn't enough to cause kick-back. 

I would check the valve clearances. Maybe they're too loose, and the compression release isn't "venting" as much as it should. Unfortunately, with a flathead, actually *adjusting* the valve clearances is quite a bit tougher than with an OHV.


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## bad69cat (Nov 30, 2015)

Just following along and I am surprised it wasn't the flywheel/key timing as your trouble. The hot/cold thing is interesting too..... if the valves are a little loose when it's cold that means maybe it's getting better pressure relief, and as it gets hot, you loose that venting when the valves get hot huh? hmmmmm at operating temps the PRV should still do it's thing though.....if the valves are still loose when it' s hot - maybe the exhaust side is allowing some unspent fuel in there and igniting? Think your running to rich maybe? could be a combo of loose valve and rich mixture......might be enough to push that exhaust valve down at the worst time which explains the jerk back...? Curious to what you find......


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## Grunt (Nov 11, 2013)

Did you only remove the head when removing the lost screw or tear down the whole engine? Is it possible that the cam was installed one tooth off if it was removed from the engine?


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## AL- (Oct 27, 2014)

Grunt said:


> Did you only remove the head when removing the lost screw or tear down the whole engine? Is it possible that the cam was installed one tooth off if it was removed from the engine?


Only the head. 

And I don't think it had been apart as the friend that gave this to me didn't work on engines and it was running OK until just before he gave it to me.


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## YSHSfan (Jun 25, 2014)

AL- said:


> Only the head.
> 
> And I don't think it had been apart as the friend that gave this to me didn't work on engines and it was running OK until just before he gave it to me.


Have you asked your friend if it perhaps had that condition before, maybe it run well once it started but had issues with ocasional kick back while starting?


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## AL- (Oct 27, 2014)

hsblowersfan said:


> Have you asked your friend if it perhaps had that condition before, maybe it run well once it started but had issues with ocasional kick back while starting?


That was a good question. 
He said it did occasionally. His neighbour gave him the snow blower.

So guess its now possible the cam is off as Grunt already mentioned

Also meant to try starting by priming when hot as Red Octobyr suggested.


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## AL- (Oct 27, 2014)

Kicked back this morning ( cold engine & primed) Also kicks back when hot and primed. When hot the priming seems to help at first but makes it harder to start, needed to crank it more than once and then it can kick back. Miserable thing to crank.

Thinking of taking the long route, valve clearance then cam if needed.


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## Grunt (Nov 11, 2013)

Hello AL. This won't help if the timing is off mechanically, but may make it easier to start until a real fix is found. With the ignition "off", pull the recoil until you feel compression, which should put the piston at TDC. Turn ignition on and give the recoil a good pull. Hopefully the extra momentum will pull it past TDC on the next revolution and save your wrist.

Do you by chance have an electric starter, or considered adding one?


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## AL- (Oct 27, 2014)

Grunt said:


> Hello AL. This won't help if the timing is off mechanically, but may make it easier to start until a real fix is found. With the ignition "off", pull the recoil until you feel compression, which should put the piston at TDC. Turn ignition on and give the recoil a good pull. Hopefully the extra momentum will pull it past TDC on the next revolution and save your wrist.
> 
> Do you by chance have an electric starter, or considered adding one?


I have another starter, this machine came with a broke starter that my friend said was broke when he got it. I've been hesitant about putting one on as I thought kick-back might damage it. Then again, over cranking I guess is the killer.

Thanks for the crank info.


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## vehtech (Apr 9, 2017)

*When all fails....check the camshaft*

Recently, a friend had the connecting rod come right through the side out of his 10 hp snowblower engine. I'm bit of a hoarder for machinery, any scrap of metal and auto parts. So, I gave the guy an engine I salvaged some time ago. It was an exact match for the one he had. I volunteered to install it for him as well.

Once everything was installed, we hauled the pull cord and started the engine. It ran perfect except for the fact the pull cord snapped back harshly every time the pull cord was pulled. I've been a mechanic my whole life and decided to get to the bottom of this problem.

I did research on many internet forums and retrieved a host of great suggestions, including:
-the flywheel key out of alignment, check (all good)
-the CDI (capacitor discharge ignition coil), check (all good) oh, and by the way, it is non adjustable for timing. It has fixed advanced timing.
-engine valves and timing, check (all good)
-carburetor, check (all good), tried the carb on my own snowblower, and no kickback.

I tried everything i could from forums. I decided to strip the engine down and see how it ticks. One thing I noticed was the starting aid mechanism on the camshaft. It had a hinged fly weight that interacted with one of the valves to reduce compression upon manual starting. Because of the advanced fixed timing, it is crucial that this mechanism operate properly to reduce compression and kickback.

So...upon inspection, the fly weight just flopped back and forth as I rotated the camshaft in my hands. I looked up the parts schematic and noticed a spring in the diagram that wasn't on the one I was holding. I checked the oil sump thinking it may have fallen off and dropped down in there. Nope...wasn't there. Perhaps it was never installed or went out in an oil change.

I dismantled the old damaged engine and found a spring in good condition. Couldn't believe how small it was. I installed it on the good engine and rotated the camshaft in my hands again. This time the flyweight stayed in tightly to the stowed position and only hinging out on high speed spinning.

I reassembled the engine, installed it on the snowblower and pulled the engine over. It started perfectly and had no kickback. The spring was critical in decompression on startup. Without it, you'll hurt your arm or shoulder.


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## Dauntae (Nov 10, 2016)

Good info on the spring, I hope he got it sorted but the last post in this thread was a year ago, Wonder if he ever figured it out.


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