# Honda replacement shear pin controversy



## Apple Guy

I did a search on this "Honda" part of this forum and I did not find a posting on Honda shear pin replacement banter. Some say why not just use the high dollar Honda ones , while others refuse to pay the jacked up Honda pricing. There is one over on Abby's that died out. Many have used 8.8 metric replacements that can be bought at any store like Home Depot or Menard's.

Many seem to "feel better" buying from some unknown guy off of ebay or Amazon, when you can get the same stuff at your local store without paying the seller markup. Stamped bolt ratings on the head are stamped bolt ratings.

I had 1 more 6mm shear bolt left for this year so I started searching for some shear replacements. Abby's had a lengthy discussion that ended in 2011 so I added what I found out from my research. It seems like most are happy with using 8.8 grade 5 replacements. I see no one having auger gear box cracking by going with common 8.8 rated bolts. A couple of the posters Honda dealers said to use 8.8's too. 

I may go that route in the end but I found a common available bolt in stainless that is 12% weaker then the 8.8. I will give those a try before going the 8.8 route.



Here is my post at Abby's below the link.

http://www.abbysguide.com/ope/discussions/55340-1-1.html




So no one has has brought up the A-2 70 stainless bolt option yet anywhere on the internet that I have found. An A-2 70 stainless is 12 % weaker then then the same 8.8 bolt. This may make some of you who don't seem to want to try the 8.8 vs the OEM Honda bolts happier to try this route of shear bolt selection. I have not tried these yet. But I have a couple for this up coming winter for my 2011 928.
If you find some stainless A4-80 they a just a hair under 8.8. I bought my A2 70s at Menard's.




Keeping It All Together, Part 1

Stainless Steel BASIC Information



.


----------



## gibbs296

Somewhat like putting retread tires on a Ferrari.


----------



## superedge88

Apple Guy said:


> I did a search on this "Honda" part of this forum and I did not find a posting on Honda shear pin replacement banter. Some say why not just use the high dollar Honda ones , while others refuse to pay the jacked up Honda pricing. There is one over on Abby's that died out. Many have used 8.8 metric replacements that can be bought at any store like Home Depot or Menard's.
> 
> Many seem to "feel better" buying from some unknown guy off of ebay or Amazon, when you can get the same stuff at your local store without paying the seller markup. Stamped bolt ratings on the head are stamped bolt ratings.
> 
> I had 1 more 6mm shear bolt left for this year so I started searching for some shear replacements. Abby's had a lengthy discussion that ended in 2011 so I added what I found out from my research. It seems like most are happy with using 8.8 grade 5 replacements. I see no one having auger gear box cracking by going with common 8.8 rated bolts. A couple of the posters Honda dealers said to use 8.8's too.
> 
> I may go that route in the end but I found a common available bolt in stainless that is 12% weaker then the 8.8. I will give those a try before going the 8.8 route.
> 
> 
> 
> Here is my post at Abby's below the link.
> 
> Honda HS928TCD auger shear pins - two types available
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So no one has has brought up the A-2 70 stainless bolt option yet anywhere on the internet that I have found. An A-2 70 stainless is 12 % weaker then then the same 8.8 bolt. This may make some of you who don't seem to want to try the 8.8 vs the OEM Honda bolts happier to try this route of shear bolt selection. I have not tied these yet. But I have a couple for this up coming winter for my 2011 928.
> If you find some stainless A4-80 they a just a hair under 8.8. I bought my A2 70s at Menard's.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Keeping It All Together, Part 1
> 
> Stainless Steel BASIC Information
> 
> 
> 
> .


Thanks for the info, I'll be looking for some back up shear pins before the snow flies.


----------



## Apple Guy

gibbs296 said:


> Somewhat like putting retread tires on a Ferrari.



How so? Bolt rating stamps are bolt rating stamps. So you are the type of guy who only buys a headlight light bulb for your Honda Accord from Honda or only buys Honda oil for anything Honda?

Plus, the swing is so far of extremes from "retreads" to a "Ferrari" from matching bolt rating stamps I question if you are scared of the dark? You don't happen to have a picture of Mr. Fred Rogers on your desk?

.


----------



## gibbs296

It's a system safety item. Why go cheapo in this area? There are a crapload of cheap Chinese fuses out there (harbor freight) causing wiring meltdowns, lousy Chinese bolts with ratings that aren't right, etc, etc. Why save 10 bucks on something that could prevent the auger system from being reduced to a pile of scrap on a 2 or 3 thousand dollar machine? Why stop here? Maybe some knockoff parachute cord, something that looks like oil in an unmarked can, maybe some meds that appear to be the same color as the ones grandma needs. It's just a poor area to try and save money.


----------



## gibbs296

Just another thought, what if you're wrong on the bolts and something gets destroyed when that loose chunk of concrete gets gobbled up in that brand new Honda? Any chance that warranty claim gets denied when they see Menards bolts in that auger?


----------



## Apple Guy

gibbs296 said:


> It's a system safety item. Why go cheapo in this area? There are a crapload of cheap Chinese fuses out there (harbor freight) causing wiring meltdowns, lousy Chinese bolts with ratings that aren't right, etc, etc. Why save 10 bucks on something that could prevent the auger system from being reduced to a pile of scrap on a 2 or 3 thousand dollar machine? Why stop here? Maybe some knockoff parachute cord, something that looks like oil in an unmarked can, maybe some meds that appear to be the same color as the ones grandma needs. It's just a poor area to try and save money.



How am I going cheap? I am using the metallurgy ratings on the bolts to closely match the OEM bolts. Then I am down grading the shear rating that hundreds of other people have used with what appears to be zero problems. Honda dealers are even telling people how to save some money by going with what appears to now be an industry standard for DIYers. 

Many have researched and tested these bolts the 8.8, with no issues. I am even suggesting a lower shear rated bolt from the norm and will work up to the 8.8 if the A-2 70 shear too easy.

I really have issue with the " the manufacture is always right" or "only use the OEM part in a area like a shear pin" type of thinking. Do research, use critical thinking skills, take the opinions of others who have tested the hardware, and analyze the risk factor on the affected part it is trying to save. Add in "you would assume" a built in manufacture engineering worse case scenario of added rust "binding/gluing" that is inevitable to a very high number of non mechanically inclined users who would not pull apart the auger system to re grease/anti-seize this area. 

Then you comment with wildly extreme scenario of retreads on a Ferrari. Then you try to tell me it is a "safety system" When I am posting a bolt that is even weaker then what hundreds are using with great results. We would have feedback right away in the DIY snowblower forums across the internet if people were busting up their auger gearbox with these 8.8 rated bolts. I have seen zero. The ones I have seen are rusted up ones. 

.


----------



## Apple Guy

gibbs296 said:


> Just another thought, what if you're wrong on the bolts and something gets destroyed when that loose chunk of concrete gets gobbled up in that brand new Honda? Any chance that warranty claim gets denied when they see Menards bolts in that auger?



I am almost off warranty, mine is a 2011. 1 month left of warranty. I would be smart enough to pull the other bolt if I did bring it in.

Even if it was still in warranty and I wanted to change say my hydro tran oil and I did, they would have to warranty my trans because of The Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act. Saying if they mandate a tranny warranty ONLY if you use their Honda oil, they would have to provide me with that oil free if it is inside the warranty period. 

I will be using Redline MTL in it next year and I bet it is a far superior oil then is in the tranny right now. 

.


----------



## gibbs296

Apple Guy said:


> I am almost off warranty, mine is a 2011. 1 month left of warranty. I would be smart enough to pull the other bolt if I did bring it in.
> 
> Even if it was still in warranty and I wanted to change say my hydro tran oil and I did, they would have to warranty my trans because of The Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act. Saying if they mandate a tranny warranty ONLY if you use their Honda oil, they would have to provide me with that oil free if it is inside the warranty period.
> 
> I will be using Redline MTL in it next year and I bet it is a far superior oil then is in the tranny right now.
> 
> .


 So basically scam the warranty by removing the cheap chinese built/rated bolt.I'm sure I'm interpeting that wrong as that would be fraud.


----------



## gibbs296

Apple Guy said:


> How am I going cheap? I am using the metallurgy ratings on the bolts to closely match the OEM bolts. Then I am down grading the shear rating that hundreds of other people have used with what appears to be zero problems. Honda dealers are even telling people how to save some money by going with what appears to now be an industry standard for DIYers.
> 
> Many have researched and tested these bolts the 8.8, with no issues. I am even suggesting a lower shear rated bolt from the norm and will work up to the 8.8 if the A-2 70 shear too easy.
> 
> I really have issue with the " the manufacture is always right" or "only use the OEM part in a area like a shear pin" type of thinking. Do research, use critical thinking skills, take the opinions of others who have tested the hardware, and analyze the risk factor on the affected part it is trying to save. Add in "you would assume" a built in manufacture engineering worse case scenario of added rust "binding/gluing" that is inevitable to a very high number of non mechanically inclined users who would not pull apart the auger system to re grease/anti-seize this area.
> 
> Then you comment with wildly extreme scenario of retreads on a Ferrari. Then you try to tell me it is a "safety system" When I am posting a bolt that is even weaker then what hundreds are using with great results. We would have feedback right away in the DIY snowblower forums across the internet if people were busting up their auger gearbox with these 8.8 rated bolts. I have seen zero. The ones I have seen are rusted up ones.
> 
> .


While menards can have some good name brand products, the majority of fasteners that I have used from them have been crappy Chinese junk. Probably fine for fastening a beer can holder on the Honda or a set of large fake testicles on the rear bumper of a ******** pickup. But a Honda is the Ferrari of snow blowers and no way would I use or trust menards Chinese built and rated fasteners in a critical location. How many shear bolts you boys using? Maybe I could teach you boys how to run a snowblower


----------



## Apple Guy

gibbs296 said:


> So basically scam the warranty by removing the cheap chinese built/rated bolt.I'm sure I'm interpeting that wrong as that would be fraud.


How do you have any clue the bolts are junk. The mass china junk bolts are so 1995. How do you even know if half the bolts in your snowblower are china bolts. Japan buys bolts from china too.

.


----------



## cabinfever

If they were junk wouldn't they just shear easier? I don't see how they would mess anything up.


----------



## db9938

I would think at a minimum, you should be able to order the part.


----------



## liftoff1967

In your best soap opera tv guy voice, read the rest of this post. (all in fun of course, nothing personal)

What will happen next for the "Shear Pin Controversy"?

Will Apple Guy find Gibbs at the local Menards sifting thru the nuts and bolts of life?

Will Gibbs run into Apple Guy at the Ferrari Dealership?

Stay tuned to the next episode for these and other answers. 

Side note, not sure there is even a Ferrari dealer in Mpls/St. Paul.


----------



## superedge88

liftoff1967 said:


> In your best soap opera tv guy voice, read the rest of this post. (all in fun of course, nothing personal)
> 
> What will happen next for the "Shear Pin Controversy"?
> 
> Will Apple Guy find Gibbs at the local Menards sifting thru the nuts and bolts of life?
> 
> Will Gibbs run into Apple Guy at the Ferrari Dealership?
> 
> Stay tuned to the next episode for these and other answers.
> 
> Side note, not sure there is even a Ferrari dealer in Mpls/St. Paul.


First good laugh of the day, thanks liftoff!


----------



## 94EG8

This makes my head hurt. the 8.8 bolts already break too easily and you're suggesting something that shears even easier? Why?!



Apple Guy said:


> I will be using Redline MTL in it next year and I bet it is a far superior oil then is in the tranny right now.


Be very careful with that. A lot of, but not all, Honda stuff is picky when it comes to fluid. Also Redline does weird stuff to plastic bearing cages if there happen to be any in that transmission.


----------



## Apple Guy

So You have tried the 8.8 bolts? Then I wont even try the A-2. I was going to try the A-2 because no one said the 8.8. broke to easy. So I thought, go a hair under and work your way up.

As for the Redline oil. I am not to worried about that. I talked to both Amsoil and Redline and used them to cross reference oil for it. It's a hydraulic pump, nothing more nothing less. Why so many people think their is this Honda voodo to their stuff is kind of crazy, a hydraulic pump is a hydraulic pump. I am putting the best oil money can buy and am exceeding the oil Honda puts in. They want you to run their dirty oil for a lifetime. I will run clean oil in it for the lifetime I own it. I will be changing it every 4 years. 

As far as Honda being picky on oil... They are the only manufacture left to use so called "break-in" oil in their car engines. The Honda dealer wanted me to run the first off oil on my Honda Fit till the oil sensor deal got to a certain point. That turned out to be 6,000 miles. But I did an oil change at 500 miles and 2,500 miles. Finding the oil analysis on the special break-in oil, it just showed it had a higher molybdenum content. So to be safe, I changed my oil with Schaeffer's 7000 that is a semi-syn with a high moly content that was right about the same as the Honda oil. Honda does not have THAT oil available. So you are covered by The Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act there too. I went with the high moly oil there just to follow their intent of using a higher moly oil to aid piston scuffing during break-in.

I have a co-worker whos wife bought a new Honda Civic and she followed Honda's guidelines on leaving the break-in oil in till the oil sensor said to change it. They changed their first run oil at 7,000 miles and still the same filter. Sorry Honda, I will PASS on how you do your oil change thought process on a new car. 

.


----------



## dbert

I'm not going to take sides here, but say I appreciate the discussion/debate.
I see the "science and research" to back up Apple Guys thoughts.

While they are probably just another distributor of junk fasteners, I have made several purchases from boltdepot.com/ If I am going to buy cheap fasteners, I dont want to pay a lot for them.

I also often see what the folks at  Bob is the Oil Guy have to say.


----------



## gibbs296

Apple Guy said:


> How do you have any clue the bolts are junk. The mass china junk bolts are so 1995. How do you even know if half the bolts in your snowblower are china bolts. Japan buys bolts from china too.
> 
> .


You're kidding right? Quality control of anything built in China vs items made in the USA or Japan or just about anywhere else? You can do whatever you want to your fancy Honda, but I say it's bad advice. It ranks right up there with repacking sealed bearings, but that's a different thread.


----------



## Apple Guy

dbert said:


> I'm not going to take sides here, but say I appreciate the discussion/debate.
> I see the "science and research" to back up Apple Guys thoughts.
> 
> While they are probably just another distributor of junk fasteners, I have made several purchases from boltdepot.com/ If I am going to buy cheap fasteners, I dont want to pay a lot for them.
> 
> I also often see what the folks at  Bob is the Oil Guy have to say.



Yep, I am on that site (bob's) on a regular basis, plus others like it too.

.


----------



## 94EG8

Apple Guy said:


> So You have tried the 8.8 bolts?


Yes I have. Broke a fair amount of them too.



Apple Guy said:


> As for the Redline oil. I am not to worried about that. I talked to both Amsoil and Redline and used them to cross reference oil for it.


Again, if there happen to be plastic bearing cages (and I really don't know if there are or not, chances are there aren't) Redline will over a period of time dissolve them. This was a problem for guys running Redline in a Civic transmissions years ago.



Apple Guy said:


> It's a hydraulic pump, nothing more nothing less. Why so many people think their is this Honda voodo to their stuff is kind of crazy, a hydraulic pump is a hydraulic pump.


Because there often is something weird about Honda fluids, not always, but often. But I'll get deeper into that in a minute.



Apple Guy said:


> I am putting the best oil money can buy and am exceeding the oil Honda puts in. They want you to run their dirty oil for a lifetime. I will run clean oil in it for the lifetime I own it. I will be changing it every 4 years.


I've seen, used, worked on, and owned more of those machines than the average person. The oil, even when over a decade old still looks clean. I have yet to see anyone have transmission problems with them never changing the oil. I really think changing it every 4 years is more than a little excessive. 



Apple Guy said:


> As far as Honda being picky on oil... They are the only manufacture left to use so called "break-in" oil in their car engines. The Honda dealer wanted me to run the first off oil on my Honda Fit till the oil sensor deal got to a certain point. That turned out to be 6,000 miles. But I did an oil change at 500 miles and 2,500 miles. Finding the oil analysis on the special break-in oil, it just showed it had a higher molybdenum content. So to be safe, I changed my oil with Schaeffer's 7000 that is a semi-syn with a high moly content that was right about the same as the Honda oil. Honda does not have THAT oil available. So you are covered by The Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act there too. I went with the high moly oil there just to follow their intent of using a higher moly oil to aid piston scuffing during break-in.


Honda is picky on oil in other ways as well. Their power steering fluid is unique, failure to use it or aftermarket fluid for Honda/Acura vehicles will destroy the seals in the rack and pump. Rear ends in CR-Vs, Ridgelines, and Pilots take Dual Pump fluid and nothing else is an acceptable substitute. Both automatic and manual transmissions are somewhat fussy about what you put in to a lesser degree.



Apple Guy said:


> I have a co-worker whos wife bought a new Honda Civic and she followed Honda's guidelines on leaving the break-in oil in till the oil sensor said to change it. They changed their first run oil at 7,000 miles and still the same filter. Sorry Honda, I will PASS on how you do your oil change thought process on a new car.


So let me get this straight, they reused the old oil filter? That's not normal. I worked at a Honda dealership as a tech for a little while. I did lots of oil changes there. Every car gets a new filter, always.


----------



## gibbs296

Worked at a chrysler dealer for 34 years. The factory recommended oil change interval was 7500 miles, filter every other oil change. Of course we never did it that way but as long as the owner would check the oil level it would be fine.


----------



## Apple Guy

94EG8 said:


> Yes I have. Broke a fair amount of them too.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, if there happen to be plastic bearing cages (and I really don't know if there are or not, chances are there aren't) Redline will over a period of time dissolve them. This was a problem for guys running Redline in a Civic transmissions years ago.
> 
> 
> 
> Because there often is something weird about Honda fluids, not always, but often. But I'll get deeper into that in a minute.
> 
> 
> 
> I've seen, used, worked on, and owned more of those machines than the average person. The oil, even when over a decade old still looks clean. I have yet to see anyone have transmission problems with them never changing the oil. I really think changing it every 4 years is more than a little excessive.
> 
> 
> 
> Honda is picky on oil in other ways as well. Their power steering fluid is unique, failure to use it or aftermarket fluid for Honda/Acura vehicles will destroy the seals in the rack and pump. Rear ends in CR-Vs, Ridgelines, and Pilots take Dual Pump fluid and nothing else is an acceptable substitute. Both automatic and manual transmissions are somewhat fussy about what you put in to a lesser degree.
> 
> 
> 
> So let me get this straight, they reused the old oil filter? That's not normal. I worked at a Honda dealership as a tech for a little while. I did lots of oil changes there. Every car gets a new filter, always.


No, they went 7,000 miles on the oil and filter that came with the car from the factory. There is no way I would leave the same oil filter and oil with all of the cross hatch metal knock down that is flowing throw that engine. The only saving grace about leaving that filter in on for the 7,000 is the "caking" affect that would make the filter stop the smaller then 10 micron metal from the cross hatching knock down. Who knows if that filter was in by-pass mode or not.

When I changed my oil the first and second time I could see a glitter affect in the oil. 

Any Group 4 oils that did not degrade bearing cages?

.


----------



## Apple Guy

gibbs296 said:


> Worked at a chrysler dealer for 34 years. The factory recommended oil change interval was 7500 miles, filter every other oil change. Of course we never did it that way but as long as the owner would check the oil level it would be fine.


Your smoken crack. No dealer would not change a filter. BS meter is WAY UP here.

And no person who worked at a dealer would be posting the way you do. If you were, you were the clueless white collar worker that had no interaction with the back end of the dealership.

That filter would guaranteed be into full by-pass by 15,000 miles.


----------



## 94EG8

Apple Guy said:


> Any Group 4 oils that did not degrade bearing cages?


Torco is safe, but I'm not sure if it's group 4 or not.


----------



## Blaine B.

I just bought some shear pins on eBay for my Ariens. A pack of 5 was $6.00 shipped to my door.

They look identical to the one shear pin that was on the Ariens when I bought it. The other was sheared upon arriving at the seller's doorstep.

I would rather these eBay pins break too soon than too late! But I refuse to use a bolt, unless I was in a dire pinch!


----------



## gibbs296

Apple Guy said:


> Your smoken crack. No dealer would not change a filter. BS meter is WAY UP here.
> 
> And no person who worked at a dealer would be posting the way you do. If you were, you were the clueless white collar worker that had no interaction with the back end of the dealership.
> 
> That filter would guaranteed be into full by-pass by 15,000 miles.


Chrysler Gold certified Master Tech, ASE certified automotive Master Tech, ASE certified In five categories for heavy truck, (silly work requirement). I'll post my credentials if you post yours?


----------



## Apple Guy

gibbs296 said:


> Chrysler Gold certified Master Tech, ASE certified automotive Master Tech, ASE certified In five categories for heavy truck, (silly work requirement). I'll post my credentials if you post yours?



And you can't conceptualize a little bolt.........


.


----------



## gibbs296

Apple Guy said:


> And you can't conceptualize a little bolt.........
> 
> 
> .


Wasted effort, put in the right part.


----------



## [email protected]

Regarding Honda warranty policy on use of Honda HST fluid and shear bolts, I can tell you this:

Using any non-Honda fluid, parts, etc. does not VOID the warranty. However, if use of non-Honda parts is determined to be the _cause_ of a failure, warranty coverage for repairs would be declined. Warranty is a legal "contract" between you and Honda and really can't be "Voided" but claims can take different paths. Understand the warranty covers factory defects in parts and workmanship. _Not_ problems _caused_ by the use of unapproved parts or incorrect service work...

Examples:

1. You fitted a non-Honda shear bolt and it did no shear but the auger gearbox did after running over come bricks in the snow. Gearbox repairs likely not covered under warranty. 

2. You fitted a non-Honda shear bolt and the electric starter assembly stops working. Even if the tech/dealer notices the non-factory bolt, it is obvious it had nothing to do with the starter. Repairs to the starter probably covered okay under warranty. 

3. You drained out the factory HST fluid and put in some other kind, or even if you put in genuine Honda HST fluid, but did not do a proper bleed, there is air in the system, won't drive. Labor to drain, refill, and bleed properly not covered under warranty.


----------



## unknown1

I just want to thank AppleGuy and Gibbs296 for making me chuckle (even though they didn't mean to).
I almost fell off my chair laughing when Liftoff1967 chimed in with his first comment and said what I was thinking... we have the same sense of satirical humor.
I never finished the thread because I couldn't due to the tears of laughter in my eyes!

By the way, I came here trying to find the "Shear force" needed to make a Honda impeller shear bolt fail (for other reasons).
I won't bore you by explaining why. Do you happen to know [email protected]?


----------



## orangputeh

gibbs296 said:


> You're kidding right? Quality control of anything built in China vs items made in the USA or Japan or just about anywhere else? You can do whatever you want to your fancy Honda, but I say it's bad advice. It ranks right up there with repacking sealed bearings, but that's a different thread.


donyboy73 repacks sealed bearings. he seems to know his stuff.


----------



## [email protected]

stuart80112 said:


> By the way, I came here trying to find the "Shear force" needed to make a Honda impeller shear bolt fail (for other reasons).
> I won't bore you by explaining why. Do you happen to know [email protected]?


I've just sent the engineer an email...he's very good about responding, so stand by.


----------



## [email protected]

Okay, here are a few Honda facts...

• The impeller shear bolts are all the same on all HSS-series 2-stage machines.
• There is not a published spec for the torque required to break a shear bolt.
• The shear bolts are specially designed 6x18mm carriage bolt with a metric class 10.9 strength rating. This strength rating is 940 MPa min yield strength (136,000 psi) and 1040 Mpa min tensile strength (151,000 psi).
• Honda does recommend you use only Honda shear bolts; there is a risk a non-Honda shear bolt may not 'shear' when it is supposed to.


----------



## Rooskie

There has been some conversation of late on this topic, but I have discovered some info that I haven't read on this site before:
Speaking strictly for the HS622, the shear bolts that go in the rakes are merely bolts. There is more than one application noted for this part number, from motorcycles to many other applications, including the HS622 shear bolt.
I was able to pick up the exact same part number listed for the HS622 shear bolts, in OEM Honda packaging, for $0.98/ea. 
Now we all know a motorcycle isn't normally designed to shear bolts in normal operation, so I've come to the conclusion this must not be a special bolt after all.
Here's my old thread for the day, but at least I'm on topic!


----------



## orangputeh

Rooskie said:


> There has been some conversation of late on this topic, but I have discovered some info that I haven't read on this site before:
> Speaking strictly for the HS622, the shear bolts that go in the rakes are merely bolts. There is more than one application noted for this part number, from motorcycles to many other applications, including the HS622 shear bolt.
> I was able to pick up the exact same part number listed for the HS622 shear bolts, in OEM Honda packaging, for $0.98/ea.
> Now we all know a motorcycle isn't normally designed to shear bolts in normal operation, so I've come to the conclusion this must not be a special bolt after all.
> Here's my old thread for the day, but at least I'm on topic!


god help us.


----------



## tabora

Rooskie said:


> so I've come to the conclusion this must not be a special bolt after all.


It's special in the sense that it is a metric class 10.9 strength rating. This strength rating is 940 MPa min yield strength (136,000 psi) and 1040 Mpa min tensile strength (151,000 psi).


----------



## SteveCA

tabora said:


> It's special in the sense that it is a metric class 10.9 strength rating. This strength rating is 940 MPa min yield strength (136,000 psi) and 1040 Mpa min tensile strength (151,000 psi).


So if one wants to be extra safe, maybe use a metric 8.8 rated bolt of the same size?


----------



## tabora

SteveCA said:


> So if one wants to be extra safe, maybe use a metric 8.8 rated bolt of the same size?


No, if you want to be EXTRA safe, use the OEM hardware. The things are pretty darn cheap, especially compared to the old style step-head shear bolts.
Note: You can use the auger shear bolts on the impeller just fine in a pinch. The carriage bolt just makes it easier to install/remove them, since only one wrench is required.


90121-V45-A00BOLT, CARRIAGE (6X18) IMPELLER SHEAR $0.55
 

90119-V45-A00BOLT, SPECIAL (6X18) AUGER SHEAR $0.29
 

90343-ZE6-000NUT, SELF-LOCK (6MM) $1.52


----------



## Woodpecker

Wrestled with this a bit when I got my new HSS1332 a few weeks back. Wanted to have a some spare shear bolts handy since generally speaking when you break a shear pin blowing snow , it isn't the best time to go out looking for new ones. Decided to spend a little bit more on ones that had the Honda logo on the parts bags. Knowing the people that designed this fine machine picked these exact nuts and bolts for this application and in this instance I won't end up being my own worst enemy to save a few dollars. So now I have a parts bin with 25 auger and 10 impeller shear bolts and nuts and will never have to revisit this buying choice again(especially since on my 7 year old Ariens I've never broken a shear bolt  )


----------



## SteveCA

It’s interesting that the nut is priced at $1.52. The bolts are reasonable but the nut....


----------



## Woodpecker

SteveCA said:


> It’s interesting that the nut is priced at $1.52. The bolts are reasonable but the nut....


Exactly, the nut has a flange on it so its hard to find. The non Honda replacements on Ebay don't have the flange nuts either, but maybe you could add a washer to them .Don't know how that effects the holding/shear strength but makes it easier to just buy the OEM Honda ones.


----------



## orangputeh

Woodpecker said:


> Wrestled with this a bit when I got my new HSS1332 a few weeks back. Wanted to have a some spare shear bolts handy since generally speaking when you break a shear pin blowing snow , it isn't the best time to go out looking for new ones. Decided to spend a little bit more on ones that had the Honda logo on the parts bags. Knowing the people that designed this fine machine picked these exact nuts and bolts for this application and in this instance I won't end up being my own worst enemy to save a few dollars. So now I have a parts bin with 25 auger and 10 impeller shear bolts and nuts and will never have to revisit this buying choice again(especially since on my 7 year old Ariens I've never broken a shear bolt  )


ya, I could never understand why someone would spend $3-4000 USD on a snowblower and try to save money on shear bolts or other critical parts like belts , etc.


----------



## tabora

Woodpecker said:


> Exactly, the nut has a flange on it so its hard to find.


Not only is it flanged, but it is a non-nylock lock nut and is critical to the proper tensioning of the shear assemblies. My theory is that those features hold the bolt and components more securely and improve the likelihood that the bolt won't shear prematurely, yet shear cleanly when necessary. I like to think the engineers gave this component some serious consideration.


----------



## 140278

Woodpecker said:


> Exactly, the nut has a flange on it so its hard to find. The non Honda replacements on Ebay don't have the flange nuts either, but maybe you could add a washer to them .Don't know how that effects the holding/shear strength but makes it easier to just buy the OEM Honda ones.


take a look in here 16 cents each for 6mm 21 cents for 8mm Metric flange nuts, prevailing torque, Zinc plated class 10.9 steel - Bolt Depot


----------



## ST1300

Industry standards are just that industry standards. If a bolt sample has been submitted for testing marked a certain way; it and those manufactured after it must be within the standard limits for shear strength and elongation before separating in any way no matter who manufactures it. Stick to known American made or Japanese brands, ask when you purchase them, and you can't go wrong-whatever the price. 8.8 in metrics or grade 5 in US SAE standard are the same rating. If the bolt has shear relief rings in it you should use an exact design, they are there for a reason. 

One thing I can tell you is you should NOT use stainless bolts for shear bolts. Being softer than regular steels is true--because stainless steel has a 20% elongation factor over regular steels and it will stretch before it shears and will smear over the edges of the retaining hole instead of shearing clean. This can leave a plug of bolt in the hole that may sometimes be hard to remove without a hammer and punch. Also the rough edges sometimes left can tear up the inside of the overlapping fan tube or the tube will ride up over the rough bolt edges and the tube will become stuck causing need for disassembly to remove the remains of the bolt.


----------



## Prime

I have been using 8.8 grade bolts with nylok nuts that I get from the local Home Hardware. I can buy them by the lb . For what I have to pay for 1 OEM Honda shear bolt and nut, I can get 20 bolt and nut from Home Hardware. I run 2 HS928 blowers commercially and go thru a fair amount of shear bolts. 8.8 is the same grade as the Honda bolt. I have been using them for 10 plus years with no issues. Only I buy them a bit longer. I find a little longer easier to install with cold fingers. Bolts shear as they should. I do remove and lube the axles every year Auger must turn free without shear bolt in. If the augers are not turning freely, it wont matter what bolts are used, you will damage your gear box if the axle is rusted tight to the auger.


----------



## RC20

I am going to put in 30 years of hands on with bolts, raring etc. I do not know what a Honda shear bolt has on its head.

What I can tell you is that Yamaha has a shear pin that is not a grade anything. Its tempered to the job and unique. I have had to use grade 8 hardware to get me by and forgot it, it did not last anywhere near as long as the Yamaha mfg (or supplied) shear bolts. 

Ok, lessons. Graded bolts are designed to CLAMP. The whole metallurgy is setup for that, not side shear force (yes they have it but its not the desinged feature, its a its there, it could be measured but its not the goal. 

The clamped joint stops the side shear (if its done right with the right fastener and torque). 

If you have to subsitute, softer is better as it gives quicker. 



_How do you have any clue the bolts are junk. The mass china junk bolts are so 1995. How do you even know if half the bolts in your snowblower are china bolts. Japan buys bolts from china too._

I worked in mechanics for 30 years and had another 20 or so invovled to one degree or another and I got back far enoguh to the Japan and Korea days (asorteed tools, Framihneng sinkers and the pipe on the Alaska Pipeline for hands on). 

Factually, you don't know what the hell you get from China. If its Cummins Diesel mfg then you know its the right specification.

Bulk Chinese? It might be fine and its got a good chance its crap. 

Bowman Fastener went Chinese. Then they found they had to test all their fasteners when they came into the US because they had crap stuff mixed in with the good stuff. Maybe just stick with US where you know its good? Nope, they opened up a big lab to test stuff. 

AK Pipeline (48 inch) has all sorts of corrosion problems? Yep, came from Japan (70s) 

The vertical supports? Two sources. Japan and US Steel. The Japaneses stuff split when it was corregated like a ring shank nails (speial device that dropped inside like a torpedo and had rings expanding on it). US Steel never did. 

Sinkers: I framed into the 80s. Korean sinkers bent if not hit perfectly 90 deg to the shaft on the head. US Sinkers, ou could hit offset a lot and no bend. They sold them for the same price. I worked for a custom framer and my orders were to snag only US Steel sinkers. 

Bottom line is if its specified and enforced (nsipected with quality control) or part of a US operation (or Japanese noww) in China, you can get top grade stuff. 

But if its not, they its a crap shoot. 

Bitg problem with aircraft is that Chineese **** is getting into the system. You want your elevator bolt made by Jin Soo in his shop out back of the pig stye?


----------



## Woodpecker

RC20 said:


> I am going to put in 30 years of hands on with bolts, raring etc. I do not know what a Honda shear bolt has on its head.
> 
> What I can tell you is that Yamaha has a shear pin that is not a grade anything. Its tempered to the job and unique. I have had to use grade 8 hardware to get me by and forgot it, it did not last anywhere near as long as the Yamaha mfg (or supplied) shear bolts.
> 
> Ok, lessons. Graded bolts are designed to CLAMP. The whole metallurgy is setup for that, not side shear force (yes they have it but its not the desinged feature, its a its there, it could be measured but its not the goal.
> 
> The clamped joint stops the side shear (if its done right with the right fastener and torque).
> 
> If you have to subsitute, softer is better as it gives quicker.
> 
> 
> 
> _How do you have any clue the bolts are junk. The mass china junk bolts are so 1995. How do you even know if half the bolts in your snowblower are china bolts. Japan buys bolts from china too._
> 
> I worked in mechanics for 30 years and had another 20 or so invovled to one degree or another and I got back far enoguh to the Japan and Korea days (asorteed tools, Framihneng sinkers and the pipe on the Alaska Pipeline for hands on).
> 
> Factually, you don't know what the hell you get from China. If its Cummins Diesel mfg then you know its the right specification.
> 
> Bulk Chinese? It might be fine and its got a good chance its crap.
> 
> Bowman Fastener went Chinese. Then they found they had to test all their fasteners when they came into the US because they had crap stuff mixed in with the good stuff. Maybe just stick with US where you know its good? Nope, they opened up a big lab to test stuff.
> 
> AK Pipeline (48 inch) has all sorts of corrosion problems? Yep, came from Japan (70s)
> 
> The vertical supports? Two sources. Japan and US Steel. The Japaneses stuff split when it was corregated like a ring shank nails (speial device that dropped inside like a torpedo and had rings expanding on it). US Steel never did.
> 
> Sinkers: I framed into the 80s. Korean sinkers bent if not hit perfectly 90 deg to the shaft on the head. US Sinkers, ou could hit offset a lot and no bend. They sold them for the same price. I worked for a custom framer and my orders were to snag only US Steel sinkers.
> 
> Bottom line is if its specified and enforced (nsipected with quality control) or part of a US operation (or Japanese noww) in China, you can get top grade stuff.
> 
> But if its not, they its a crap shoot.
> 
> Bitg problem with aircraft is that Chineese **** is getting into the system. You want your elevator bolt made by Jin Soo in his shop out back of the pig stye?


HOLY COW! I'll stick with Honda QC as their products are usually at the top of any list!


----------



## Rooskie

Woodpecker said:


> HOLY COW! I'll stick with Honda QC as their products are usually at the top of any list!


If the item comes with the Honda logo and part number on the package, you would assume that Honda QC looked at it, wouldn't you?


----------



## 2badknees

Woodpecker said:


> . So now I have a parts bin with 25 auger and 10 impeller shear bolts and nuts and will never have to revisit this buying choice again(especially since on my 7 year old Ariens I've never broken a shear bolt  )


I use the factory shear nuts and bolts and keep them a little past snug. I check them every 2 or 3 uses and have not broken any in 2 years. How often are others breaking ?


----------



## tabora

2badknees said:


> How often are others breaking ?


Not very often...
Honda HS80K1TAS - 1 impeller and 3 auger shear bolts over 30 years.
Honda HSS1332AATD - 1 impeller shear bolt over 4 years - since the machine has the Honda Shear Bolt Guard System, I don't expect to replace many auger shear bolts. Without that feature, I would likely have broken 1/2 dozen auger shears by now... I've encountered too many sticks/newspapers/sprinkler heads/tarps/doormats recently.


----------



## drmerdp

I went through 3 shear bolts on my HSS this season. All three were from bailing out neighbors from the the big 30”+ nor’easter we got. Its really not a big deal, literally takes 1 minute to to install a new one. (I added on board storage with bolts/nuts and a ratchet.)


----------



## Miles

drmerdp said:


> I went through 3 shear bolts on my HSS this season. All three were from bailing out neighbors from the the big 30”+ nor’easter we got. Its really not a big deal, literally takes 1 minute to to install a new one. (I added on board storage with bolts/nuts and a ratchet.)


I've never had to replace a shear bolt on my HSS since it was new in 2015. How tight do you make them?


----------



## RC20

I use Yamaha pins if I have them but in a snow storm and I am out, yea I will substitute. Just a brain zark I forgot. 

Honda probably has a spec but good and snug would be the norm.

This is not your normal clamping application, its all a side load and unless they have a size sorted to suit that, very likely a unique metallurgy that is not out of your standard grad bolts. 

There are high temp bolts out there as a standard Grade classification fastener looses its properties over certain temperatures, so you don't want to hook up a standard bolt to a steam line or an exhaust manifold. 

Anyone have a picture of the bolt head on the Honda shear bolt?


----------



## Rooskie

RC20 said:


> I use Yamaha pins if I have them but in a snow storm and I am out, yea I will substitute. Just a brain zark I forgot.
> 
> Honda probably has a spec but good and snug would be the norm.
> 
> This is not your normal clamping application, its all a side load and unless they have a size sorted to suit that, very likely a unique metallurgy that is not out of your standard grad bolts.
> 
> There are high temp bolts out there as a standard Grade classification fastener looses its properties over certain temperatures, so you don't want to hook up a standard bolt to a steam line or an exhaust manifold.
> 
> Anyone have a picture of the bolt head on the Honda shear bolt?


----------



## orangputeh

i replaced my first shear bolt on my honda 80 in about 10 years.


----------



## 2badknees

Ya but, you can't fool us. Your stuff is all welded


----------



## drmerdp

Miles said:


> I've never had to replace a shear bolt on my HSS since it was new in 2015. How tight do you make them?


The owners manual just says tighten securely. I’m not sure if the shop manual give a torque spec, but I just make it tight. 🙂


----------



## tabora

RC20 said:


> Honda probably has a spec but good and snug would be the norm.


The standard for Metric Grade 10.9 M6 coarse bolts is 11 ft.lb. or 15 Nm.


----------



## JnC

HS series shear bolts are pricey as they are made in Japan. 

HSS series shear bolts are cheap as they are sourced from US manufacturers like most parts on the HSS series. I have been using the HSS shear bolts on HS machines for a few years now without any issues. 

$0.29 for the shear bolt






Honda 90119-V45-A00 - BOLT, SPECIAL (6X18) | Boats.net


Buy Honda 90119-V45-A00 - BOLT, SPECIAL (6X18). This OEM part is guaranteed by Honda's limited part warranty ✓ FREE Shipping on qualified orders - Boats.net




www.boats.net





and bulk purchase of nylock M6 nuts from the following link, $0.04 cents per nut if you buy more than 100. 









Nylon Locking Nut Class 8 Steel DIN 985


Bel-Metric sells metric hardware & specialty automotive supplies nationwide. Visit our website to purchase metric fasteners, nuts, bolts, Time-Sert kits & more.




www.belmetric.com


----------



## orangputeh

this controversy will never die

file it with oil controversies
and gasoline controversies
and impeller kit controversies
spark plug controversies
old vs new snowblower controversies
whateverhappenedtooneacercontroversy.com


----------



## Miles

What happened to Coby?


----------



## orangputeh

Miles said:


> What happened to Coby?


whathappenedtoSBFmembers.com


----------



## Ziggy65

What happened to crazzywolfie?


----------



## Rooskie

Ziggy65 said:


> What happened to crazzywolfie?


I've seen him recently....


----------



## RC20

In looking at my spares, they don't have a grade on them, just S. I don't go with these as being 10.8 or it would be listed that way on the head of the bolt. 

Book says fasten securely. No spec. My guess is this is Grade 5 area though its a non grade type bolt for a special application. 

Lower grade material and higher torque can stretch the bolt into plastic.


----------



## orangputeh

Ziggy65 said:


> What happened to crazzywolfie?


man.............


----------



## tabora

RC20 said:


> In looking at my spares, they don't have a grade on them, just S.


"S" = SAE Grade 5.


----------



## RC20

Interesting. But the S look like a letter assigned to Tsukimori not necessary a grade (note the KY can can be 5 and 8 as well as others )

But what to make of the Frame Bolts on the machine that have IO (the O has a line through it vertically ?)

If it is grade 5 then its not a Grade 8 and the tension should be 8 ft lbs.

The Carriage type have no symbols.

Honda simply notes to snug them up, not a specification for torque which is not done by mechanics unless its a significant one (head bolts, valve lash etc).

And does Japan still adhere to that or is it old standards? Having dealt with JIS in the past........ and Japan unique thread pitch.

And this is another form of ID and the challegne is, what is it?


----------



## tabora

RC20 said:


> Interesting. But the S look like a letter assigned to Tsukimori not necessary a grade


Yes, but their other grades should be marked differently.
The "S" bolts are noted as:

Those that are improperly marked
Those of foreign manufacture that do not meet Public Law 101-592. Fastener Quality Act



https://www.hanford.gov/tocpmm/files.cfm/TFC-ESHQ-Q_C-C-03_REV_C-16.pdf




RC20 said:


> But what to make of the Frame Bolts on the machine that have IO (the O has a line through it vertically ?)


That's Metric Grade 10.9.








Even more fun is the lefthand version:









Seriously, haven't we discussed Honda shear bolts sufficiently at this point? Buy Honda OEM. Do, or do not; there is no try.


----------



## RC20

I am not disagreeing on buying the Honda shear bolts, I am 100% in agreement! 

But when I see use 11 ft lbs on an unknown grade faster (yes we can disagree on that, it may be for Shear vs other fasteners that look the same).

If its a Grade 5 or lower with its own special metallurgy and or heat treatment for shear purposes, then putting 11 ft lbs may take it into plastic range and a sooner failure. 

The Yamaha shear pin was clearly not grade anything but very specifically a shear bolt. My guess is it has elasticity to the side and allows it to distort sideways and then spring back. That is a guess not a proven fact.

I do get serious about fasteners. I spent 20 years puzzling over various failures and then I got a technical education on them and application. Those issues went away if you knew what the properties should be vs what was being used. 

Drive shaft failures are often due to loose bolts where they use lock washers (SAE has prohibited them sine 1969 as I recall). they still are used.

BMW cycle came out with a bulletin forbidding their use due to the lock washer cracking failures and the subsequent drive shaft failures even though they were fitted with them originally. 

There are dozens of main listed specialty type fasteners (building steel bolts) that are not grade anything but built for holding structural steel together. I have seen hundreds used in flanges for hot fluid piping that is forbidden (there are special bolts for that application). 

One of my last head scratchers was exhaust manifold bots on 6 fire pumps that failed. The material was well withing the heat specifications but failed (exhaust gasses corrosion?). Answer, don't worry about it, replace with MICA exhaust manifold gaskets and never have it happen again (as well as the structural steel bolts that were out of heat tolerance). 

Most do not have the advantage I had both in eduction on that subject and experience, but it is not a slam dunk answer, you might get away with it and you might not. I like being sure so as noted, use HONDA BOLTS!

ps: its cold, its winter and no snow on the ground to blow right now.........................


----------



## tabora

RC20 said:


> But when I see use 11 ft lbs on an unknown grade faster (yes we can disagree on that, it may be for Shear vs other fasteners that look the same).


Quoting Honda:

The impeller shear bolts are all the same on all HSS-series 2-stage machines.
There is not a published spec for the torque required to break a shear bolt.
The shear bolts are specially designed 6x18mm carriage bolt with a metric class 10.9 strength rating. This strength rating is 940 MPa min yield strength (136,000 psi) and 1040 Mpa min tensile strength (151,000 psi).
Honda does recommend you use only Honda shear bolts; there is a risk a non-Honda shear bolt may not 'shear' when it is supposed to.
The standard for Metric Grade 10.9 M6 coarse bolts is 11 ft.lb. or 15 Nm. This is below the listed maximum torque of 12 ft.lb. or 17 Nm. dry:


----------



## RC20

Clearly that is not in the users manual. I have no issue accepting it but then the stuff on the 
being grade 5 has me scathing my head.

















S on it


_There is not a published spec for the torque required to break a shear bolt _

Huh? Torque specs are not to break a bolt, they are to ensure the right clamp force and be safely under the plastic range. 

In this case there is a nyloc so its not going to come off. 

The Nyloc has no recognizable symbols on it. The 3 dents may mean something to Honda


----------



## tabora

RC20 said:


> In this case there is a nyloc so its not going to come off.
> The Nyloc has no recognizable symbols on it. The 3 dents may mean something to Honda


That is not a Nyloc; the picture below is a Flange Nyloc with the Nylon insert. Those three depressions in the Honda nut are the crimps that turn a standard flange nut into a conical lock flange nut.


----------



## RC20

These are pictures of he bolt heads I can see, different sizes bu the same IO designation. I am going to say conjecture those are standard Honda Bolts and while it seems grade 8 is high, accept that and call them Grade 8 in Hondaese.


















Clearly the shear bolt is not the same. 

note: Grade 5 is acceatble and the norm but Honda has always marked to their own drummer though I remember the Honda 90 Trail with its phillips head soft stuff that was awfull.


----------



## RC20

_That is not a Nyloc; the picture below is a Flange Nyloc with the Nylon insert. Those three depressions in the Honda nut are the crimps that turn a standard flange nut into a conical lock flange nut. _

I stand corrected and the indentation makes sense for that purpose. Good to keep learning.


----------



## tabora

RC20 said:


> These are pictures of he bolt heads I can see, different sizes bu the same IO designation. I am going to say conjecture those are standard Honda Bolts and while it seems grade 8 is high, accept that and call them Grade 8 in Hondaese.


Those are metric grade 10.9, not 8.8. Grade 8.8 would only have the Θ symbol. But metric grade 10.9 equals imperial grade 8. How's that for confusing!


----------



## RC20

Thank you, new on me. Also interesting to see the 12.9 had an official designation. Up to the end I worked on compressor that used Grade 5 for head bolts. Kudo to Honda, you have to love over doing it rather than just meeting. 

Some of my stuff is dated now. Bowman and Lawson made the Grade 8+ but at the time it was unofficial.

Theirs had the added bonus of thick heads so we loved them as wrenches did not slip off them.


----------



## RC20

I just got a good laugh at myself. My wife left a pin in the ground she uses to fly her banner setup off of. 

I ran right into it and sheared a bolt on the right side.

There is no way you can do a torque on that fastener. My book calls them Radially Deformed

The bases of torque is that there in no inhibition on the fastener, these have it built in. Half or 2/3 of your torque is overcoming the resistance of the crimps. 

That is why dry threads toque is higher than lubed, there is more friction there.

These have vastly aka hugely more friction. They may even be more tensile capable than grade 8 Plus (12.9) to allow that. It may not have the same spring clamp force but then this is shear. 

Looking at my book, it seems that the metric world came up with the 12.9 class and SAE has not come up with a comparable class for it yet.


----------

