# Ariens Deluxe 28 Won’t Start



## Point37 (Aug 21, 2018)

Trying to get my brother in laws snow blower started...it’s an Ariens Deluxe 28 model 921037 with an AX 414 engine...from what I understand it’s been sitting for about 3 years...It had a full tank of fuel so I drained it through the carb bowl to verify I had steady fuel flow...then I put fresh fuel in with seafoam...there is no fuel filter other than the screen in the tank opening...then I pulled the spark plug and cleaned it and reattached the wire and grounded the end of the plug against the engine and pulled the cord to verify I had spark...then I pulled the carb off and ultrasonic cleaned it...reassembled everything and tried to start it with the electric start and the gas cap loose in case it was a vacuum issue and it was backfiring but will not start...any ideas?...thanks in advance


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## 1132le (Feb 23, 2017)

I have the same machine same motor
Look at the 2 wires near the carb bowl makes sure they are not grounding out there is tsb about this i really had to dig to find it


http://apache.ariens.com/manuals/B-2116.pdf


that is a killer machine when its running right
fire your bil for letting it sit 3 years


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## Point37 (Aug 21, 2018)

1132le said:


> I have the same machine same motor
> Look at the 2 wires near the carb bowl makes sure they are not grounding out there is tsb about this i really had to dig to find it
> 
> http://apache.ariens.com/manuals/B-2116.pdf
> ...



Thanks a ton...I think my dad said he was seeing a spark from inside the shield when we were trying to get it started...this may be the issue...does it matter which wire is on top and which is on the bottom when switching to the opposite side?...also just wondering why swapping sides on the run/stop switch would fix the issue?



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## 1132le (Feb 23, 2017)

the wires are routed very tight bad design 

just check them for int grounding
see if you routed them back the right way 1 should almost be above the carb


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## Point37 (Aug 21, 2018)

1132le said:


> the wires are routed very tight bad design
> 
> just check them for int grounding
> see if you routed them back the right way 1 should almost be above the carb



Thanks again...so I should be trying to separate the routing of these 2 wires?


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## 1132le (Feb 23, 2017)

As best you can you dont want them taught so there is pressure on them when the machine is running/ vibrates
Is that white covering still on the wires ?
make sure those are protecting the wires
Sparks and gas are a bad combo
The moron i got my machine from had pulled the bowl as he left gas in it
Had the wires in a bad place and the white covering was not in the right place
I had some int grounding and stalling
I re routed 1 wire above the carb and moved the white covering back where it should have been
No more sparks no more stalling
Its amazing what a bad owner can do to almost brand new machine lol


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## Point37 (Aug 21, 2018)

1132le said:


> As best you can you dont want them taught so there is pressure on them when the machine is running/ vibrates
> Is that white covering still on the wires ?
> make sure those are protecting the wires
> Sparks and gas are a bad combo
> ...



So I started to follow the TSB and decided to swap the spark plug from my platinum 30 sho (same engine) and give it a try and it fired right up...now it will start and run but the engine surges and backfires and it dies after a few minutes when the choke is off


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

For my curiosity, you re-routed the wires, or you changed the spark plug? Or both? 

If it's surging, but smooths out with choke, then you are running lean, and your carb is likely still dirty. It's possible the jet is simply the wrong size, and is forcing it to run a little lean, even if it's perfectly clean. But a little bit of dirt somewhere is maybe more likely. 

If you know the carb is fully clean, you *could* try opening up the jet a little bit. But I'd want to know that I could buy another replacement stock jet first, before I made any permanent modifications.


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## JLawrence08648 (Jan 15, 2017)

Clean the carb, what you do depends on your knowledge, adventuresome, and how dirty the carb is, a spray carb cleaner, carb dunk tank, ultrasonic cleaner.


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## 1132le (Feb 23, 2017)

I took off the bowl and took out the jet and imulsion tube and sprayed carb cleaner up the shaft it sits in Pay attention to how the tube comes out

cleaned the jet and all the tiny holes in the tube and it solved the issues you speak of run 2 or 3 tanks through it with seafoam you should be good

Pay attention to where the drain plug is before you remove the bowl it needs to be there to no hit the float
whole thing took me 25 min
you can get it out with a flat blade screw driver just be carefull
I would try that before removing the carb its quite abit more work to get the carb off on this blower
not like and old flat head tech or ohv tech you can do in 5 min
the carb cost a fair amount as they have idle down i think the cheapest is 75 bucks
good luck


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## Point37 (Aug 21, 2018)

JLawrence08648 said:


> Clean the carb, what you do depends on your knowledge, adventuresome, and how dirty the carb is, a spray carb cleaner, carb dunk tank, ultrasonic cleaner.



I already ultrasonic cleaned it...see my first post



1132le said:


> I took off the bowl and took out the jet and imulsion tube and sprayed carb cleaner up the shaft it sits in Pay attention to how the tube comes out
> 
> cleaned the jet and all the tiny holes in the tube and it solved the issues you speak of run 2 or 3 tanks through it with seafoam you should be good
> 
> ...



Thanks...I guess I’ll pull the jet and give that a shot...I could see daylight straight through the jet when I removed it to run it through my ultrasonic cleaner...not sure if there are side holes as the jet didn’t seem to extend too far into the carb air passage



RedOctobyr said:


> For my curiosity, you re-routed the wires, or you changed the spark plug? Or both?
> 
> If it's surging, but smooths out with choke, then you are running lean, and your carb is likely still dirty. It's possible the jet is simply the wrong size, and is forcing it to run a little lean, even if it's perfectly clean. But a little bit of dirt somewhere is maybe more likely.
> 
> If you know the carb is fully clean, you *could* try opening up the jet a little bit. But I'd want to know that I could buy another replacement stock jet first, before I made any permanent modifications.


Thanks...Did not reroute wires...both wires had the white sheath on them and there was a white sheath that housed both wires together....just swapped plugs and then bought a new plug and replaced it...think I’ll pull the carb again and pull the jet and the float and needle valve...not my first rodeo with carburetors but I wonder if I need a rebuild kit and one of the rubbers isn’t sealing properly and letting in air...but I’m not seeing any fuel leaking either...probably won’t be opening up any holes in the jet

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## leonz (Dec 12, 2014)

1. Surging can happen because of a plugged fuel screen and or a collapsed fuel line. 

2. The float could be stuck and or filled with fuel and heavy in the float bowl as this snow mule has been sitting idle for three years with no care and no amount of cleaning will help that. I have been there and done that. 

You also have to plan on changing the fuel hose rubber line and adding a shut off valve as well as the old fuel tubing will collapse if it is weakened from age and it will rot.

The good woven fuel tubing is worth every penny.

I would change the fuel tubing and set the gap on the new plug at 25 thousandths and let it run for a while at half throttle to see how well it runs. 

The newer engines have to comply with the EPA regs for exhaust pollutants now and they are essentially detuned and the way to get around that is to install bigger jets BUT I would regap the plug and dumped out the fuel tank and changed the fuel tubing with good woven fuel tubing before I changed the jet though. 

Changing the jet is the best option with poor performance of a snow mule with a good engine in deep or heavy wet snow pack that has melted and frozen over night hence the existence of the END OF DRIVEWAY MONSTER.


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## 1132le (Feb 23, 2017)

has a factory shutoff


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## Point37 (Aug 21, 2018)

Thanks...Fuel screen is fine, fuel hose was tested by disconnecting from carb and letting run to ensure uniform flow, carb is clean via ultrasonic cleaner, float has no holes, float isn’t stuck, oem fuel shutoff works just fine, brand new plug was factory gapped equal to the old plug


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## vinnycom (Nov 6, 2017)

how bad was carb, gas left in for prolonged period?
just because u cleaned it via ultrasonic doesnt mean it was successful. use carb cleaner, brass wire brush and small diameter wire to clean it manually, make sure all holes are cleaned thoroughly and reassembled correctly especially float and needle and main jet(s). 
i cleaned my carb 3 times before i was satisfied.....and i still bought a cloned one to compare performance, clone ran better.
any bad air intake gaskets, use carb cleaner to test w/motor running.
its most def running lean.
unlikely but possible, valves


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## JLawrence08648 (Jan 15, 2017)

vinnycom said:


> just because u cleaned it via ultrasonic doesnt mean it was successful. use carb cleaner, brass wire brush and small diameter wire to clean it manually, make sure all holes are cleaned thoroughly and reassembled correctly especially float and needle and main jet(s).
> i cleaned my carb 3 times before i was satisfied.....and i still bought a cloned one to compare performance, clone ran better.
> any bad air intake gaskets, use carb cleaner to test w/motor running.
> its most def running lean.
> unlikely but possible, valves


I've cleaned carbs in a ultrasonic cleaner and still have had problems with them. After I disassemble the carb, I spray carb cleaner in the holes to soften any debris and to see if any holes are clogged prior to the ultrasonic cleaning. I always use a welding torch tip cleaner for every hole. After the ultrasonic cleaner, I use the carb cleaner again. And if it still doesn't run right, I remove the Welch plug that goes in to the throttle body, if from the beginning I feel the carb is going to be a problem, I remove the Welch plug prior to the ultrasonic cleaning. And even after this, there's times I've resorted to a Chinese clone because it ran better or started easier.


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

I've had good luck so far with just the ultrasonic cleaner. But it can't fix everything. 

It will dissolve varnish, etc. But it won't disintegrate a little piece of rubber that came off a fuel line, or a grain of sand, or rust, and so on, if they got stuck somewhere important. 

So I think also mechanically cleaning the passages still has its place, especially if a problem persists.


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## Point37 (Aug 21, 2018)

Pulled the carb again...when I removed the fuel line I ran it into a bottle to ensure good fuel flow (have a video of it running into the bottle)...removed the bowl, removed the float and inspected for holes, no fuel inside and no holes...float is plastic...needle valve was fine...pulled the jet and inspected...I could see daylight through every hole...since the holes continue all the way across...no evidence of any rubber chunks from fuel lines...but I soaked the jet and needle valve in carb cleaner anyway...blew them out with carb cleaner and air...reassembled everything and I’m right back where I started...still surging (have a video of that also)...any other ideas?


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## Dauntae (Nov 10, 2016)

Two things, have you pulled the low speed jet, It’s actually a plastic plug held in with the throttle stop screw on the top of the carb and I know you pulled out the main jet but did you also take the emulsion tube out, It’s a brass tube with pin holes that is held in by the main jet, You may have to push it down from the main opening behind the choke flap with a small screw driver but if that is also blocked you will not get it running too well.


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## Point37 (Aug 21, 2018)

Dauntae said:


> Two things, have you pulled the low speed jet, It’s actually a plastic plug held in with the throttle stop screw on the top of the carb and I know you pulled out the main jet but did you also take the emulsion tube out, It’s a brass tube with pin holes that is held in by the main jet, You may have to push it down from the main opening behind the choke flap with a small screw driver but if that is also blocked you will not get it running too well.


Pulled the emulsion tube but did not pull the low speed jet...could that cause a surging condition?







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## vinnycom (Nov 6, 2017)

Point37 said:


> Pulled the emulsion tube but did not pull the low speed jet...could that cause a surging condition?


yes, both high and low work in tandem with full throttle or under load, if it surges at low throttle it probably could be low speed jet. u would normally clean that out in a teardown/cleaning procedure.
was carb ever left with fuel in it over time.
check air intake tube for air/vacuum leak like a bad gasket seal


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## Point37 (Aug 21, 2018)

vinnycom said:


> yes, both high and low work in tandem with full throttle or under load, if it surges at low throttle it probably could be low speed jet. u would normally clean that out in a teardown/cleaning procedure.
> was carb ever left with fuel in it over time.
> check air intake tube for air/vacuum leak like a bad gasket seal




Thanks...I’ll check the low jet...couldn’t seem to find a blow up of the carb online on a small parts website to know where the low jet is...what air intake tube?...I see a fuel tube and a fuel primer pump tube...the I thought the air intake was directly through the choke valve under the shroud since there are no air filters on snowblowers due to freezing


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## dbert (Aug 25, 2013)

I don't have personal experience with the 414. I've attached a parts breakdown for reference.
LCT 414 IPC
The following attachment is for smaller Honda's but I'm guessing has many similarities to the carb you have.
If you have a good pdf viewer you can zoom in with some good detail.
Honda Carburetor Check Sheet


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## vinnycom (Nov 6, 2017)

Point37 said:


> Thanks...I’ll check the low jet...couldn’t seem to find a blow up of the carb online on a small parts website to know where the low jet is...what air intake tube?...I see a fuel tube and a fuel primer pump tube...the I thought the air intake was directly through the choke valve under the shroud since there are no air filters on snowblowers due to freezing
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


lean condition is too little fuel and/or too much air.
air intake is the metal tube/manifold connected from throttle plate side into motor for the intake valves, i dont have ur particular carb but all carbs have basically the same design, air passes choke plate, mixes with fuel than goes through throttle plate to the intake valve(via air intake manifold/tube) to enter combustion chamber.

theres a gasket on either end of the tube, one on the carb the other on the motor, spraying carb cleaner at these points while engine is running will tell u if theyre bad as engine rpm will change.


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## Dauntae (Nov 10, 2016)

Yes it could, when under load it feeds off the main jet but when no load it runs mostly off the low speed jet and tends to pulse when sitting running. Ariens don’t usually need it but I have actually drilled the jet out and fixed the issue on a few LCT engines on other brand machines as there are a lot who use that brand but it may be slightly blocked and easy to take out.


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## 1132le (Feb 23, 2017)

the 414cc doesnt need the jet enlarged i wish it was and adj carb though
the engine is a beast


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## Dauntae (Nov 10, 2016)

WOW I didnt see it was the 414cc, I would at least check the jet to make sure nothing got in there and restricting flow.


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