# Why do small engines still use carburetors?



## Tomatillo (Nov 11, 2016)

Why do small engines still use carburetors?
I'm sure it's down to economics. However, is a module and injector so far out of the question for an expensive snow blower? :question:
With an injector system we can forget many of the blasted carb issues we have, especially with modern fuel problems.

Sure injectors still get clogged, but in a small and relatively simple, accessible system, we can just keep several injectors on hand, just like you do spark plugs, right?

Can someone enlighten me as to why we aren't seeing this, and do you believe we will see it in the near future?

Thanks,

Tom


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## cranman (Jan 23, 2016)

ariens is offering EFI on their new blowers for an added $300. In the showroom they start easy..LOL. It should solve the carburetor, bad gas issue.....but I would rather they just take ethanol out of gas.


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## Tomatillo (Nov 11, 2016)

cranman said:


> ariens is offering EFI on their new blowers for an added $300. In the showroom they start easy..LOL. It should solve the carburetor, bad gas issue.....but I would rather they just take ethanol out of gas.



For sure, but even with E0, EFI solves a range of adjustment issues, even problems with carbs you can't adjust, etc.


Just think, no more mixture screw adjustments.


I'd shell out the $300!


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## sscotsman (Dec 8, 2010)

Yep, just this year EFI (electronic fuel injection) appeared on snowblowers for the first time. Ariens is the first to offer it.
I'm sure the only reason it took this long was cost..it will probably become more common year by year.
Scot


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## detdrbuzzard (Jan 20, 2012)

economics, you said it in your first post. lets stay with ariens and lets say that ariens can put FI on all their snowblowers for an additional $300. now how much does that compact 24 cost or the snow tek line


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## drmerdp (Feb 9, 2014)

EFI is coming in in a big way. It's taking time to build momentum but im sure in 10 years there will be more EFI options then carbureted.

John Deere has expensive garden tractors with EFI, Cub cadet has affordable lawn tractors with EFI. Stihl and husqy have EFI chainsaws. Honda has an EFI engine in there 7000watt inverter gen. Now ariens with snowblowers.

Slowly but surely.


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## Duff Daddy (Sep 22, 2014)

I remember when a 2 50cc dirtbike was 3500 bucks new...suzuki came out in 07 I think with a fuel injected 400 and it was a most 8 grand.......ehhhhh I'll take a carb. 

Sent from my SM-N900P using Tapatalk


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## YSHSfan (Jun 25, 2014)

Cost savings is the biggest factor. 
If everyone wanted and was willing to buy an EFI unit, it would drop the overall production cost of the system and keep it lets say at $100-150 more than a carburetor unit, but even a lot of dealers do not want to order them afraid of having to deal with issues afterwards.
At some point, slowly but I think eventually most small engines may go the EFI way for fuel economy, but specially if the EPA gets involved and it gets mandatory........


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## sscotsman (Dec 8, 2010)

hsblowersfan said:


> At some point, slowly but I think eventually most small engines may go the EFI way for fuel economy,


When the average snowblower uses less than $5 worth of gas *per year*, I dont see how fuel economy could ever be a real concern..



hsblowersfan said:


> but specially if the EPA gets involved and it gets mandatory........


Oh right..when the government is involved, it doesn't have to make sense!









Scot


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## LouC (Dec 5, 2016)

I recall the first car I drove with EFI. My in-laws 1987 Mercury Grand Marquis 5.0. Started it up on a very cold winter day. No roaring fast idle, no surging, no stalling etc. What a revelation, after always having carbs on all my vehicles. My first car with EFI was an '88 Mazda 323. Same thing reliable cold starts and smooth running all the time. Over the years I have had 3 more vehicles with EFI and they have been mostly trouble free as far as reliable running. So I would like to try an EFI snow blower when it comes to the size I would buy (if ever)..single stage. 
One thing I'd tell anyone, if you are somewhat mechanically inclined, and are willing to learn, one of the best things you could do is learn how to clean out small engine carbs. 90% of the time this is your problem, caused by evaporating gas in the carb or fuel bowl. I run mine every 3 months at least and that seems to keep fuel from evaporating and I have not had to take carbs apart all that often. As far as ethanol we have no choice here in southern NY due to the totalitarian EPA forcing something on us, that we never asked for. This is a point some might do well to consider. It is more than just EPA though, its all political and also pushed by the corn lobby. Funny thing is that people in those states have a choice, they don't have to buy E10.


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## NJHonda (Feb 8, 2013)

sscotsman said:


> When the average snowblower uses less than $5 worth of gas *per year*, I dont see how fuel economy could ever be a real concern..
> 
> Scot


There is the answer. Its surely not fuel economy driven, and its very expensive.. The only way carbs will totally disappear is when..
1- the Gov't says to
2- the cost comes down to a reasonable level for the average consumer for FI


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## rearaghaerh (Dec 23, 2016)

We have been using non ethanol premium in our cars and all small engines for a couple of years. Makes a big difference in the chainsaw, mower, leaf blower and snowblower.


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## Bluejoe (Nov 29, 2016)

The carburetor will be here for a long time to come. With the many small engines out there and more being produced. When EFI first appeared in vehicles there're were more then several different versions by car makers. So I guess there will be the same on small engines. Then they will sell aftermarket kits to replace the carburetors. People given the choice will 9 out of 10 purchase the cheaper version as the have always done. Their thoughts are its just a snowblower and we might use it a couple times. The good part about it is we will still need technicians.


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## DriverRider (Nov 20, 2016)

Tomatillo said:


> Why do small engines still use carburetors?
> I'm sure it's down to economics. However, is a module and injector so far out of the question for an expensive snow blower? :question: Can someone enlighten me as to why we aren't seeing this, and do you believe we will see it in the near future?


Be careful what you wish for. The only reason for this discussion about carburetors is the negative effect ethanol has on fuel. Ethanol is an EPA requirement and EPA regulations are a tremendous burden on the U.S. economy. If the EPA had its' way a catalytic converter and full blown computer controlled electronics would be on your snowblower engine. Would you like that?


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## EdwardC (Sep 26, 2016)

Does EFI also require that there's a generator/alternator and a battery on board as well?


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## YSHSfan (Jun 25, 2014)

EdwardC said:


> Does EFI also require that there's a generator/alternator and a battery on board as well?


Yes, indeed.


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## Bluejoe (Nov 29, 2016)

You bring up a good point DriverRider. That's what happen to diesel produced vehicles. From regular exhaust to adding catalytic converters, diesel particulator filters and others.


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## Koolmoose (Jul 11, 2013)

Other than the super cool factor of having fuel injection on a small engine I don't see the need. It might benefit people who don't take care of maintenance or their gas. Would it be fair to say that the members of this board, along with other small engine boards, are the 1%'s of maintaining their machines? After all the various experiences we've had with ethanol fuel do we really need such an expensive solution?


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## DriverRider (Nov 20, 2016)

Bluejoe said:


> You bring up a good point DriverRider. That's what happen to diesel produced vehicles. From regular exhaust to adding catalytic converters, diesel particulator filters and others.


Yes. Diesel engine compartments are so packed with emission devices that on some models of trucks the entire body of the truck gets removed from the frame to service some systems. Very sad state of affairs and costs of course get passed on to everyone.


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## JD in NJ (Dec 21, 2016)

LouC said:


> As far as ethanol we have no choice here in southern NY due to the totalitarian EPA forcing something on us, that we never asked for. This is a point some might do well to consider. It is more than just EPA though, its all political and also pushed by the corn lobby. Funny thing is that people in those states have a choice, they don't have to buy E10.


I'm in northern NJ, so basically a similar neck of the woods as yours. Obtaining ethanol-free fuel here is next to impossible. I did a bit of research into race fuels recently though, and I'm very seriously thinking about picking up a five gallon drum of Sunoco 'Optimax' from a place (ECS) over in Middletown. I called them yesterday and they're out of stock for the next week or two. The reason I'm considering this though, is that it's an ethanol-free 95 octane gasoline with a stated shelf life of three years. The reason I may not get it is that the cost is a bit over 60 bucks! Still, it would be nice to have some of this in the shed.


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## Tomatillo (Nov 11, 2016)

I get your point, but to your question -- I would definitely like the electronics (I don't foresee catalytic converters for snow blowers, but you never know. Whole other topic.). For example, adjusting the high end screw based on RPMs that need to be checked, etc. Dialing that stuff in can be a PITA, checking the RPMs, etc.

If it runs like crud, plug in your trusty module checker. Should be easy to check fuel to the injector, and inexpensive to swap an injector.

Call me crazy, but I like EFI on everything I own that has it.

Now, I suppose it's entirely likely you and I will be cleaning our driveways and the Russians will hack my electronics from the cyber ether-force .... In which case, I'll buy you a beer and humbly admit the vulnerable electronics failed me! In fact, I'll buy you a whole case of Heineken ... if they don't hack our beer. ;-)



DriverRider said:


> Be careful what you wish for. The only reason for this discussion about carburetors is the negative effect ethanol has on fuel. Ethanol is an EPA requirement and EPA regulations are a tremendous burden on the U.S. economy. If the EPA had its' way a catalytic converter and full blown computer controlled electronics would be on your snowblower engine. Would you like that?


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## New_HondaHS35 (Jan 18, 2014)

hsblowersfan said:


> Yes, indeed.


Wrong. you DO NOT have to have a battery to run injectors


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## Tomatillo (Nov 11, 2016)

Found this:

Small Engine Fuel Injection Kit – 35cc to 300cc










Small Engine Fuel Injection Kit - Small Engine EFI conversion kit


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## Ariens hydro pro (Jan 24, 2014)

While the EFI sounds good, there are draw backs. Do you like computers on your lawn mowers?
Last spring I replaced a lawn tractor with a Cub Cadet with EFI.
It starts right up and the junky gas won't rot out my carb, but I notice 1 draw back. If I idle the machine longer than I should the machine will shut off. It's like there is a timer and if your not in the seat you will have to restart it. Weird, a lawnmower with a brain...
The gas mileage is the same as the last tractor. The same laps around the yard require the same gasoline amounts in the tank.

If this tractor fails to run, I may not be able to figure it out and will be forced to drop it off. That didn't cross my mind when I gave the nice lady $1800.


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## Tomatillo (Nov 11, 2016)

Good point. They could program ridiculous features in and the government could force them to do certain things with various capabilities. I'm guessing competition keeps most of that stuff at bay. If your machine turns off and b*tches about doing its job and XYZ brand isn't such a whiney PITA, XYZ brand would get my business.


But they could also dial in poor performance after a certain number of hours, etc.


That's my cynical view, however. I don't believe it would happen in reality.




Ariens hydro pro said:


> While the EFI sounds good, there are draw backs. Do you like computers on your lawn mowers?
> Last spring I replaced a lawn tractor with a Cub Cadet with EFI.
> It starts right up and the junky gas won't rot out my carb, but I notice 1 draw back. If I idle the machine longer than I should the machine will shut off. It's like there is a timer and if your not in the seat you will have to restart it. Weird, a lawnmower with a brain...
> The gas mileage is the same as the last tractor. The same laps around the yard require the same gasoline amounts in the tank.
> ...


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## Ariens hydro pro (Jan 24, 2014)

sscotsman said:


> When the average snowblower uses less than $5 worth of gas *per year*, I dont see how fuel economy could ever be a real concern..
> 
> 
> Scot


I wish that was true where I am. I used at least 20 gallons to do my leafs this year! I used a back pack blower, 13 HP little wonder blower and a Scag tigercat machine with a collection system

PS, I hate leaf season! Oh look at all the pretty colors they say....


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## guilateen02 (Nov 23, 2014)

Only thing ringing in my head, with all that computer talk is having to have your machines inspected regularly,like our cars. I see the letter in the mail now. Mr Guil it appears you have been running your tractor for 2 years now without a current Inspection sticker, fine is $xxx. Better get me an old machine now, maybe it will be grandfathered in.


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## drumsonly2002 (Dec 23, 2016)

I work on machines that have a built in fault code that appears after so many hours. It forces the user to call a tech and inspect the unit, erase the code. The by product is the customer having to pay someone for a un necessary service call. Creates employment and loss of money for the equipment owner. Imagine this thinking with power equipment. With commercial equipment, it has arrived, a new reality. Next stop, non-commercial products.


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## New_HondaHS35 (Jan 18, 2014)

drumsonly2002 said:


> I work on machines that have a built in fault code that appears after so many hours. It forces the user to call a tech and inspect the unit, erase the code. The by product is the customer having to pay someone for a un necessary service call. Creates employment and loss of money for the equipment owner. Imagine this thinking with power equipment. With commercial equipment, it has arrived, a new reality. Next stop, non-commercial products.


name the machines that have a built in fault code


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## 43128 (Feb 14, 2014)

DriverRider said:


> Be careful what you wish for. The only reason for this discussion about carburetors is the negative effect ethanol has on fuel. Ethanol is an EPA requirement and EPA regulations are a tremendous burden on the U.S. economy. If the EPA had its' way a catalytic converter and full blown computer controlled electronics would be on your snowblower engine. Would you like that?


if the epa had there way all ope would have obd2, check engine lights and yearly emissions checks. could you imagine your snowblower throwing a p0420 and having to replace the cat, or getting stupid codes like an evap code for a lose gas cap? then they would probably impound your snowblower until you got it fixed. im sure one day soon it will come to that


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## tpenfield (Feb 24, 2015)

Interesting question and discussion topic . . . my 2 cents on the matter.

First off, it is not really needed. . .

Secondly, there are a lot of sensors and electronics involved in a true EFI engine. The kit that was mentioned via the link posted pretty much sums it up in terms of what is required for EFI. Notice that it comes with a software CD ??? I'm not sure if there is a more simplified approach for small engines ???

The Ariens EZ-Launch EFI engine monitors Air Temp, Engine Temp, and Air pressure (altitude), according to their promotional video, so it sounds like a full-blown EFI system, needing an ECU, fuel pressure pump/regulator and integrated ignition system.

Now if you have to get the EFI engine diagnosed and/or repaired . . . imagine what that is going to look like $$$.

EFI engines are great . . . I have 2 of them in my boat, and we pretty much all have them in our cars. Yet for a small engine that we used about 4 months out of the year, the cost and complexity may not be worth it.

JMO


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## LouC (Dec 5, 2016)

Hello Ted, I see we meet again! Still working on the old boat. Getting COLD in Long Island though. 
I still say that small engines should stick with carbs and that as owners we should all learn how to at least take these carbs apart enough to clean them to keep the machines running. I can't imagine what a single stage snowblower with EFI and a cat converter would look like, how much it would weigh and what it would cost. Already, the lightweight machine I have (2 stroke Toro) weighs 20 lbs more in 4 stroke modern form. Same work done, bigger, heavier and more complex. Long live the 2 stroke! 
Hopefully the Trump administration will at least force the EPA to do some cost benefit analysis on any of their proposed regs for small engines. Case in point the fact that we are still forced to use ethanol in our gas when it has not been proven to reduce pollution, it reduces mileage and creates maintenance headaches. Yet due to the over-reaching power of the EPA, protected from any US citizen challenging them, this situation continues on unabated, further enraging people against big government that does not listen. You'd think they got the message this time!

One more example:
we bought a DF 2.5 Suzuki outboard for our small boats. From new, it would not run right. Dealer changed carb, still would not run right. Set extremely lean. The fools from EPA, require 'tamper proof' caps over the mixture screw. You could see a tin cap pressed into the recess where the mixture screw is. In fact on you tube a Russian guy removed this cap to set his so it actually ran right. Its all in Russian but you can get the gist of what he is saying. Well the rep from Suzuki comes and guess what he did? Dealer would not say, but I know he removed the cap, set the mix to make it run right, and put some epoxy in the recess where the cap was. I will buy a spare carb just in case, and take that tin cap and throw it in the garbage. Non adjustable cabs indeed!! We did not ask for nor did we vote for this....


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## tpenfield (Feb 24, 2015)

Hi Lou,

Yes, carbs it is for small engines . . . I'm not all that worried about EPA regs . . . for small engines . . . with the Internet, we will figure out a way to make them run right, if they are not. Going forward for the next few years, I would expect the EPA to relax regulations so as to increase the demand for gasoline  . . . not that I am in favor of that, but just seeing things the way they appear.

California may still have their special regs, but I'm not sure that will lead to fuel injected yard tools . . .


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## drumsonly2002 (Dec 23, 2016)

The Machine is a commercial dishwasher, not snowblower. The introduction to adding micro processors that exhibit fault codes to equipment in facilitating extra income for big business. Great for the technician, bad for the user. EFI worked out great for motorcycles as that in a way is a small engine. I am a big Ariens fan though I own a very nice Honda. I would buy a EFI Ariens if I needed another unit and had the extra $. If EFI became more popular cost would drop. I doubt if the fault code to get a tech to check snowblower will ever come about due to competition among brands. 
EFI on motorcycles took over and I spoke to one bike mechanic who loves that technology. The backyard hot rodders prefer carbs due to simplicity. I would like to have an EFI snowblower.


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## thool (Jul 25, 2016)

The way things are going, it would not surprise me if someday New York outlaws the sale, service, or transfer of any piece of outdoor equipment not having EFI. It might end up starting as an indirect ban by forbidding carburetor sales or repair kits, or any retail work on a naturally aspirated small engine...engines with plenty of life will go to the curb. Maybe an equivalent to cash for clunkers to inject (pun intended) new engines into the retail streams.

Might be a good time to stock up on rebuild kits and gaskets.

When my snow blower won't start, I'm not sure I want to bust out my laptop and USB cable in 5 degree weather and find out I need to install a new ECU driver because of some bug.


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## Blosumsno (Dec 7, 2016)

Also I see a situation where the ECU or some sensor is no longer available in 5 years or so because the vibrations did it in. But then there's Ebay. 

And the need for a filtered/regulated power supply will likely use a battery to clean up the DC from the rectifier as in a car. So now you have a battery to maintain and an electrical system that if it goes out you fire up the ol' shovel. likely no magneto ignition. With carbs if the electric starter quits you ether have a rope to pull or can jump start it (in the case of tractors).

A good opportunity for planned obsolescence.


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