# toro 828 powershift - ran without oil



## firedudetl1 (Jan 26, 2016)

I apparently started changing the oil in my old toro 828 powershift 8 hp B&S and neglected to finish the job by adding oil - then we got snow on Saturday into Sunday and I ran it without oil - seized up in about 3 minutes - not sure how much damage occurred but I'm hoping this site will help me out with either repairs or repowering 
located in RI 
thanks


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## Shryp (Jan 1, 2011)

You could try breaking the crank loose by rocking a pipe wrench back and forth. My guess is the engine has some internal damage and will let go sooner or later. If you wanted to be more through you could take it apart and inspect all the pieces. Some oil or even better ATF down the spark plug hole might soak down through the piston and lubricate that. I think I have heard of people using diesel, PB blaster and any type of penetrating oil as well.

Harbor Freight sells some nice engines cheap. You can check the Repower section of the forum for a lot of engine swaps. Most people use the 212cc which is around 6.5-7 HP, you might want to jump up to at least the 301cc with is around 8 HP.


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## firedudetl1 (Jan 26, 2016)

plan right now is to pull off the head and see if there is any obvious damage on that end, then go "deeper" - I did get the crank to move a little but given the snow and no reason to spend more time on it in the driveway, in the shop until time's available

thanks for the help


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## Kiss4aFrog (Nov 3, 2013)

:welcome: to the forum firedudetl1


So sorry to hear about it :facepalm_zpsdj194qh
Let us know what the walls look like when you get a chance to tear it down.
Photo or two would be good.
What is it's model and serial number ??


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## GustoGuy (Nov 19, 2012)

The Predator 301cc 8hp will bolt right in and you will see a performance improvement with it as well over the old flat head Briggs & Stratton


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## bad69cat (Nov 30, 2015)

More often than not the rod will seize onto the crank first - I think that one may have an actual rod bearing though? Might be salvageable but I would pull it all and go deep first then decide......


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## firedudetl1 (Jan 26, 2016)

I don't have the model or serial number as the plate is missing - didn't notice that when I bought it - will try pictures when I get into it - -may try just the bearing if there is one....

when can I get the Predator engine and any ideas on the cost? 

thanks to all for the comments - feeling a little better about not having to junk the whole machine - too nice a design


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## 43128 (Feb 14, 2014)

put a big breaker bar on the crank bolt and break it free. see if it will run like that add some oil to it and some 2 stroke to the gas(always do this after an engine seize, it helps to lubricate the cylinder wall where most of the damage occured). if it wont run or runs for a bit and chucks the rod at least you can say you tried and you can throw a predator on it


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## uberT (Dec 29, 2013)

Firedude, welcome aboard! 

The Predator replacements are found at Harbor Freight (Attleboro, Warwick, etc.) and are likely to be the most economical way to get up 'n' running again. Look at the cost, I doubt there's any way a repair from your local shop could compete. Good luck!


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## tpenfield (Feb 24, 2015)

firedudetl1 said:


> I don't have the model or serial number as the plate is missing - didn't notice that when I bought it - will try pictures when I get into it - -may try just the bearing if there is one....
> 
> when can I get the Predator engine and any ideas on the cost?


I cannot imagine that the old engine will be much good, even if you break it loose. Maybe just a side project for a tear-down and re-build.

You have 3 Harbor Freights in/near RI, so you might want to verify if they have the Predator 301cc in stock before you head out.

$239.99 + tax for the 301cc (8 hp) not sure if there are any active coupons.

On your current 8 hp B&S, you may want to verify the crankshaft diameter where the pully attaches. I believe the 301cc is a 1" dia shaft. The 212cc is a 3/4" shaft.

I replaced the engine on my Toro 521 last year with the 212cc. Pretty easy job.


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## firedudetl1 (Jan 26, 2016)

I have 2 Ariens ( 7 hp not sure what width, and an 8 hp 32 inch) to handle any new snow, so I'm thinking the toro may have to wait a bit, I do want to open it up and see how badly damaged, but it looking like re-powering is the way to go - I'll stop at the local H-F to check availability
of course, I'll get the repowering done and we won't get any more snow...


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## detdrbuzzard (Jan 20, 2012)

I think the HF 301 motor has the same size shaft as the motor on the toro. while it cost more than the HF212 motor I would still go with the 301 or another 8hp motor


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## firedudetl1 (Jan 26, 2016)

would go for an 8/301, rather spend more money once than less money twice....


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## UNDERTAKER (Dec 30, 2013)

This 1 will fit.Briggs Professional Series Snow Engine 11.5 TP 1" x 2-3/4" ES #15C134-0023


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## UNDERTAKER (Dec 30, 2013)

Or this 1.Brand New Engines | Briggs & Stratton Horizontal Snow Engine 13.5 INTEK 1" x 2-29/32" #20M312-3009


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## nt40lanman (Dec 31, 2012)

If you're going to re-power, don't mess with the old engine. Someone might want it before the rod punches a hole out the side.


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## Kiss4aFrog (Nov 3, 2013)

Because this is going to be a summer project you can also get a cheap, new, Tecumseh generator engine and go with an 11hp if you like the Tim Taylor school of thought (more power).

There are some threads on others who have made the conversion. The main hurdle is the tapered shaft.

They can be found around a 100 even. Small Engine Surplus.com OH318EA-222712 Tecumseh 11 HP


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## 94EG8 (Feb 13, 2014)

dump some ATF down the cylinder and free it up with a bar. Start it and see what happens. If it's no knocking keep running it. It will probably start consuming oil but more often than not they'll survive being run without oil.


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## firedudetl1 (Jan 26, 2016)

thanks for the atf advise - will have to try that (marvel mystery oil as alternative?) - definately a summer project at this point - found an old 8 hp/24 inch ariens on craigslist for $275 - got it for $240, so I now have my "insurance" snowblower for the rest of this season - going to do an oil change (including adding the oil.... duh...) - add a fuel filter and maybe new belts - will probably be looking for chains as this has "turf tires" but for right now, I'm good for the next storm (which could be next season and that would be fine)


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## bad69cat (Nov 30, 2015)

Yeah - now that you are ready you won't need it... :>/ Story of my life anyway.


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## Kiss4aFrog (Nov 3, 2013)

As long as we're waiting for summer on your Re-Power, how about a photo or two of the new Ariens (new to you).


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## firedudetl1 (Jan 26, 2016)

Not too good at the posting picture "thing" but I'll give it a shot - will to get all three ariens to post

update on the toro engine is a buddy of mine pulled it apart and found the cylinder scored and the bottom of the piston "melted" - his opinion is to do an engine replacement - I'm probably going to spend a little more money on a briggs - just have to get the time and money together to order then pass it to my friend who has it to install - might be sooner than later


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## Vermont007 (Mar 29, 2015)

Can you find just a "short" block, so that your Head, Carb, Flywheel, Alternator, Starter Motor, Recoil, Muffler, and other controls might fit and continue to be used ?

It sounds like you and your Friend would be capable of handling that.


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## firedudetl1 (Jan 26, 2016)

stopped at the local shop - he mentioned getting a short block as well - problem is I don't know exactly what engine is on the machine as the plate was missing when I got it - shop guy said there were other places on the engine to get the info, but I'm not sure where they are
other question is how do you add pictures to a posting - took some with a cell phone and I want to post them


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## skutflut (Oct 16, 2015)

Go to User CP. In the second column from the left, you will find a menu to make changes to your prefs, fairly long list. The column heading is Your Control Panel. From that menu, select Edit Options, about half way down the list. Go to the bottom section of the next window with all the settings options, under Miscellaneous, and from the list of Message Edit Options, select Enhanced Interface, Full WYSIWYG from the drop down list. SAVE your changes and then every time you open to send a new message, you will have a bunch of options showing at the top of the message box, including a Paper Clip icon used to attach files. Click that Paper clip and a window will open so you can attach pictures.

Is your engine an OHV or a flat head?


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## firedudetl1 (Jan 26, 2016)

old style flat head - just set up an album with pictures of the cylinder and the piston


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## firedudetl1 (Jan 26, 2016)

*toro 828 powershift - ran without oil - cylinder and pistons*

trying to post pics of the cylinder and pistons - not sure if the block /cylinder could be "honed" and then use a new piston and rings


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## firedudetl1 (Jan 26, 2016)

amazing! it worked!


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## skutflut (Oct 16, 2015)

Try looking here for the engine number location info

https://www.briggsandstratton.com/us/en/support/need-help/other-engines


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## skutflut (Oct 16, 2015)

That block is a bit of a mess.


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## firedudetl1 (Jan 26, 2016)

yeah,kind of figured that would be the comments - if it was steel/cast, I'd have it machined, but with it being Al, I'm guessing it now a small anchor......


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## skutflut (Oct 16, 2015)

i wonder if that block has enough meat to bore out and put in an iron sleeve. You would have love it a lot though, to spend the money


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## 43128 (Feb 14, 2014)

its time for it to head to the scrap pile, its shot. i would look at the predator 301cc


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## nt40lanman (Dec 31, 2012)

Nice work!!!!!


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## HCBPH (Mar 8, 2011)

Ouch!


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## 43128 (Feb 14, 2014)

its a boat anchor now


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

Ouch, that sucks. At least it didn't break the connecting rod.

I've never done it. But for chainsaws, I've heard people talk about using a certain acid to remove aluminum that has been transferred to the cylinder wall from the piston, if an engine seizes. I don't know more about the process than that, but perhaps something like this could be used to help clean up the cylinder?


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## 43128 (Feb 14, 2014)

RedOctobyr said:


> Ouch, that sucks. At least it didn't break the connecting rod.
> 
> I've never done it. But for chainsaws, I've heard people talk about using a certain acid to remove aluminum that has been transferred to the cylinder wall from the piston, if an engine seizes. I don't know more about the process than that, but perhaps something like this could be used to help clean up the cylinder?



here the thing though, its a kool bore engine(aluminum cylinder with no liner), so he would also melt away whatevers left of the cylinder


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## firedudetl1 (Jan 26, 2016)

I'm going more toward "lawn ornament", however, boat anchor is still under consideration - may some "*******/swamp yankee" artwork to sell


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## UNDERTAKER (Dec 30, 2013)

Bore it out stick a over size piston and rings in there. redo the valves while you are at it.k:k:k:k:k:


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## firedudetl1 (Jan 26, 2016)

need to invest the time on a little cost analysis - can get the rebuild labor "cheap" (aka free since he was running it when it seized) however, what's the cost of the machining, new piston etc for an engine that's at least 20 years old and has been used for at least 4-5 hours every storm, last year there were 10 (?) storms and I've had since probably 2001??? might be better to invest in a newer stronger cleaner engine if the swap isn't too costly..... stay tuned


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## GustoGuy (Nov 19, 2012)

43128 said:


> here the thing though, its a kool bore engine(aluminum cylinder with no liner), so he would also melt away whatevers left of the cylinder


I would replace the engine with a HF Predator engine.


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## db9938 (Nov 17, 2013)

Eh, I am not sold on the idea that this is an aluminum bore. Take a magnet to it to determine if it is. You may be able to have it honed and an oversized piston/ring kit installed. Or you could do it, what has been done could be undone .


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## GustoGuy (Nov 19, 2012)

db9938 said:


> Eh, I am not sold on the idea that this is an aluminum bore. Take a magnet to it to determine if it is. You may be able to have it honed and an oversized piston/ring kit installed. Or you could do it, what has been done could be undone .


If the scuffing on the bore catches your finger nail then just a hone will not fix it. Plus the bore could be out of true and putting a perfectly round piston into an oblong hole will not work very well. It could be off less than a 1/2 a mm and unless you make carefull measurement you would never be able to tell but that half a mm will lead to the engine destroying itself and burning oil in rather short order. *I would not even attempt to fix this I would repower and if you don't like the idea of a Chinese clone engine then get a good running Tecumseh if you can find one or a new old stock engine.* By the time you spend all that money on boring out that old block and puting in all new parts and your time you will have spent way more money than you would simply by repowering it.


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## detdrbuzzard (Jan 20, 2012)

repower it you'll have a working snowblower and the old motor to play with if you choose to


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## firedudetl1 (Jan 26, 2016)

I may do the re-power, but I'm concerned about the stepped crank and pulley system that's on the machine now - If I do the rebuild (assuming it can be done) drop the engine back in place and off we go, if I re-power, how much more work is it to do the pulleys and the engagement controls (drive,throttle, auger) based on the time cost for the machining?

right now it's research time and getting ready to deal with negative temps for the next day or two with a storm on Monday into Tuesday that may be slop as the temps rise - on top of work and life in general.....


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