# Toro CCR 450 seized engine question



## TheFanMan (Oct 10, 2017)

I recently picked up a unique Toro CCR 450 with a Tecumseh LH195 (I think) that was sitting on the curb, its essentially a 38586. The recoil was stuck, so i managed to free it by squirting some PB blaster in the spark plug hole and putting a torque wrench on the crank bolt and gently rocking it back and forth. I did get it started... for about 3 seconds and then it stopped and locked up again. I was wondering what might have caused it to seize originally and the second time after i freed it... the engine was full of oil when i found it seized. If i'm able to get the engine out I want to take it apart out of curiosity, see whats going on.


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## unknown1 (Dec 13, 2015)

TheFanMan said:


> I recently picked up a unique Toro CCR 450 with a Tecumseh LH195 (I think) that was sitting on the curb, its essentially a 38586. The recoil was stuck, so i managed to free it by squirting some PB blaster in the spark plug hole and putting a torque wrench on the crank bolt and gently rocking it back and forth. I did get it started... for about 3 seconds and then it stopped and locked up again. I was wondering what might have caused it to seize originally and the second time after i freed it... the engine was full of oil when i found it seized. If i'm able to get the engine out I want to take it apart out of curiosity, see whats going on.


Piston Rings? Any smoke when it ran? Maybe 3 seconds too short to see much. All that Blaster would smoke anyway I suppose. Any clanking noises?
Cylinder rust or debris? Especially if it sat in the rain for years without moving the piston with no plug in it.


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## TheFanMan (Oct 10, 2017)

stuart80112 said:


> Piston Rings? Any smoke when it ran? Maybe 3 seconds too short to see much. All that Blaster would smoke anyway I suppose.
> Cylinder rust or debris?


Well it did smoke, but the choke was on so that was expected. It wasn't anything excessive actually, i even squirted some oil into the cylinder while i worked it on and off for 2 days. There wasn't any clanking that i noticed... but then again, 3 seconds isn't that long, no grinding metal on metal sound. I did manage to get it unstuck again, but don't dare start it. At a certain point turning the crank i can hear what i assume is the rod possibly moving... my knowledge is very limited in this case, I've only cleaned carbs up to this point.


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## unknown1 (Dec 13, 2015)

TheFanMan said:


> Well it did smoke, but the choke was on so that was expected. It wasn't anything excessive actually, i even squirted some oil into the cylinder while i worked it on and off for 2 days. There wasn't any clanking that i noticed... but then again, 3 seconds isn't that long, no grinding metal on metal sound. I did manage to get it unstuck again, but don't dare start it. At a certain point turning the crank i can hear what i assume is the rod possibly moving... my knowledge is very limited in this case, I've only cleaned carbs up to this point.


Well I'm only 3 videos ahead of you on the engine internals. I'm inclined to agree that running it may cause damage until you nail down what's going on. (Hence the question right?)
This might be your chance to whip off your first head and take a look-see. Nothing to lose if you watch a few videos first. Just a gasket and torque-wrench to put it back.* Let's hope someone may have a few better ideas first though.* It was a freebie. Great opportunity to learn a bit more. I dismantled an engine that threw a rod just to get that hands-on feel. Maybe I'll rebuild it too just to see how that goes. 
I'll be interested to see what people suggest. Carburetors get a bit boring once you've nailed them. Great place to start though...if you screw up... pay $10 and get another.

EDIT: IF you crank it by hand then .. yes... the piston goes up and down and the rod does the rod-thing .. the valves do the valve-thing ..but they should be fairly silent. If you hear noises then I'd like to know what is making that noise before starting it again. Just by knowing what's in an engine I'd think what can possibly make a noise like that. Grabbing a thought from thin air I might wonder if the connecting rod is loose. But these are just wild thoughts that makes it all fun as you triage and reverse-engineer. Engines aren't all that complicated when you stop and think about it.
You can pick up 95% of the knowledge in a couple of weeks. The next 5% takes 50 years. I think that's why the most experienced people still hang around... they always pick up a trick or two 99.56% and counting.... no-one can get to 100


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## TheFanMan (Oct 10, 2017)

stuart80112 said:


> Well I'm only 3 videos ahead of you on the engine internals. I'm inclined to agree that running it may cause damage until you nail down what's going on. (Hence the question right?)
> This might be your chance to whip off your first head and take a look-see. Nothing to lose if you watch a few videos first. Just a gasket and torque-wrench to put it back. Let's hope someone may have a few better ideas first though. It was a freebie. Great opportunity to learn a bit more. I dismantled an engine that threw a rod just to get that hands-on feel. Maybe I'll rebuild it too just to see how that goes.
> I'll be interested to see what people suggest. Carburetors get a bit boring once you've nailed them. Great place to start though...if you screw up... pay $10 and get another.


Ya, I would really like to avoid damaging it... if i can repair it for not a crazy amount i want to try (ill need an in-lb torque wrench), in any case it would be a nice learning experience. I'm only thinking about going this far b/c this snow thrower is actually a prototype unit. Likely not too much different from a Toro 421QZE with the Tecumseh engine... but, its a prototype... that's just neat. Most of the bucket would definitely need to be sanded down and painted, but that's not a big deal to me, time i have.


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## unknown1 (Dec 13, 2015)

TheFanMan said:


> Ya, I would really like to avoid damaging it... if i can repair it for not a crazy amount i want to try (ill need an in-lb torque wrench), in any case it would be a nice learning experience. I'm only thinking about going this far b/c this snow thrower is actually a prototype unit. Likely not too much different from a Toro 421QZE with the Tecumseh engine... but, its a prototype... that's just neat. Most of the bucket would definitely need to be sanded down and painted, but that's not a big deal to me, time i have.


A word for the wise... my harbor freight torque wrench doesn't click and if you read the reviews that should not surprise me. When it's time to put the head back that feels a bit spooky. That's where the experience kicks in. Some folks can probably tell torque to within a few percent just by feeling the stress on their muscles. But that's the 50 year thing I was talking about in the edit to my previous reply. 
Go for it!! You know you want to. BTW HF also sell those stress gauges that fit to any wrench and turn them into torque wrenches. Not tried one.. if you DO let us know how that shakes out. Grab an engine manual, learn the zig-zag pattern and just hope HF didn't sell you a lemon. If you've got a spare $2300 lying around.. buy a Snap-on ;-)


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## unknown1 (Dec 13, 2015)

By the way.. after you've watched that video.. come back and tell me that pulling off the head won't tell me much about the rod ;-)


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## unknown1 (Dec 13, 2015)

TheFanMan said:


> ...but, its a prototype... that's just neat. ...


That's twice today! Did you see the post with a sticker that says "Not for Retail Sale" or something like that... you guys have some of the rarest machines! Yes that is neat! Don't break it.
Let's have some pictures of that prototype


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## TheFanMan (Oct 10, 2017)

lol


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## TheFanMan (Oct 10, 2017)

stuart80112 said:


> That's twice today! Did you see the post with a sticker that says "Not for Retail Sale" or something like that... you guys have some of the rarest machines! Yes that is neat! Don't break it


Really!... No, didn't see that post, i'm gonna go look for it now. And yes, it has a sticker that says "Not for Retail Sale" on the frame, the engine also says "Sample Engine" on the sticker with "EXE" as the model. Although it does say 195cc, so i'm 99.9% sure its a LH195.


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## Paulie139 (Sep 25, 2017)

stuart80112 said:


> You can pick up 95% of the knowledge in a couple of weeks. The next 5% takes 50 years. I think that's why the most experienced people still hang around... they always pick up a trick or two 99.56% and counting.... no-one can get to 100


EXCELLENT point!


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## TheFanMan (Oct 10, 2017)

stuart80112 said:


> Let's have some pictures of that prototype


Unfortunately I only have a close up of the sticker on the body, and the frame/engine sticker since i tore it down... but here they are. First time trying to post pictures.... could blow up in my face, i apologize ahead of time.


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## unknown1 (Dec 13, 2015)

TheFanMan said:


> Really!... No, didn't see that post, i'm gonna go look for it now. And yes, it has a sticker that says "Not for Retail Sale" on the frame, the engine also says "Sample Engine" on the sticker with "EXE" as the model. Although it does say 195cc, so i'm 99.9% sure its a LH195.


Here ya go http://www.snowblowerforum.com/forum/1297033-post8.html
The main machine on #1 of that thread is beautiful (Think how old it is)


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## TheFanMan (Oct 10, 2017)

stuart80112 said:


> Here ya go http://www.snowblowerforum.com/forum/1297033-post8.html
> The main machine on #1 of that thread is beautiful


Ohh...... thank-you, couldn't seem to find that thread on my own


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## TheFanMan (Oct 10, 2017)

*Update*

Hey, just wanted to put out an update... thinking i should have put this in general discussion, ohh well. In any case, i just opened up the engine and what i found i wasn't expecting. It looks like the plastic ?governor gear? failed and took out the oil dipper on the rod. I took a bunch of pictures and wanted to get some comments/options of the state of things. It looks like the rod surface (at-least the bottom) isn't that bad, no gouges, feels smooth... same for the crank, which looks excellent to me, again it has a very smooth surface, no material transfer. There is some slight side slop, but none up and down (i have a video of that)... not sure if that's considered normal, ohh and the cylinder is smooth to the touch.


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## nwcove (Mar 2, 2015)

if its an ohv engine, and the engine is the only obvious issue keeping it from moving snow.........a chonda repower is cheap and "easy" ,...... then put the old engine on the bench for dissection .


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## TheFanMan (Oct 10, 2017)

That is a great idea, but this is a Tecumseh L-head engine off a single stage unit, so no easy swap unless its the same engine. This is a prototype unit i'm seeing if i can bring it back to life for fun.


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## nwcove (Mar 2, 2015)

i just looked at the pics of the engine.......if it is a prototype that never made it to production......you are most likely beating a dead horse. jmho


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## TheFanMan (Oct 10, 2017)

nwcove said:


> i just looked at the pics of the engine.......if it is a prototype that never made it to production......you are most likely beating a dead horse. jmho


Fair enough, but according to the model 38586 it is based on a consumer version, likely with very few changes. The engine is specified as a 195cc 5.5hp Tecumseh, this corresponds to the LH195 engine used on the consumer model, so parts _should_ be interchangeable.


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## 43128 (Feb 14, 2014)

those engines are super easy to find for next to nothing because everybody knows those tecumsehs are crap. i would buy a running one and swap over the shrouding carb and muffler from yours. nobody but you will ever know if you do it right


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## Dauntae (Nov 10, 2016)

43128 I think that is the only thing I really don't agree n with you is the tecumsehs are crap LOL Not high performance at all but they last a LONG time and are oh so easy to work on and do there job.


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## 43128 (Feb 14, 2014)

Dauntae said:


> 43128 I think that is the only thing I really don't agree n with you is the tecumsehs are crap LOL Not high performance at all but they last a LONG time and are oh so easy to work on and do there job.


i dont hate all tecumsehs, the hm80s and larger are decent engines but the small frame engines are crap. i own a few hm engines and besides being notorious for valve train issues and liking to throw connecting rods they are pretty reliable and make good power


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## TheFanMan (Oct 10, 2017)

I know tecumseh L heads don't compare for power and efficiency to newer OHV engines, but like has been said, they usually last a long time and are easy to work on. This is the first engine I've opened up and figured at the very least I could learn something, and I have. But it's looking more like I'll be able to bring this thing back to life... That would be awesome.


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## 10953 (Sep 4, 2017)

43128 said:


> i dont hate all tecumsehs, the hm80s and larger are decent engines but the small frame engines are crap. i own a few hm engines and besides being notorious for valve train issues and liking to throw connecting rods they are pretty reliable and make good power


nothing wrong with small frames when cared for, i have 5 powering de-watering pumps,chippers, wheeled leaf blowers. all with 100rds of hours on them.most are from right after Lauson power products became Tecumseh 
the ops was a prototype. parts from later 5.5 195 cc will fit and work, if they can be found, he will have to polish the crank with some crocus cloth by wrapping it around a few turns, pulling it back and forth with some wd 40 on it to claen off the rod material . replace that con rod, blown governor,replace the rings,re-lap the valves , 

it's a easy job for a tech for the op a donor engine would be a wise move,


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## 10953 (Sep 4, 2017)

PS side note

never ever hone a alloy bore motor. for a re ring, if honed it will smoke like a bug killer. simply clean the ring groves of the piston and re ring it. the new rings are very slightly over sized and will seat as designed 
if it dose need to be re bored it's machine shop time or better yet short block time


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## TheFanMan (Oct 10, 2017)

*Such a shame.*

Well this will likely be my last post in this thread, thanks to everyone that gave me suggestions... but i finally removed the crank, which took way more effort than it should have (a hammer). This explains some odd behavior i was seeing whenever i would tap on the end of the crank. Its disappointing that i wont get this thing running again, but cant win them all... still, i learned a lot from this, so not a total loss.


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## 43128 (Feb 14, 2014)

i still say predator swap it. if you want it gone ill come grab it from you. which part of new york are you in? dont trash a pre production unit


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## TheFanMan (Oct 10, 2017)

43128 said:


> i still say predator swap it. if you want it gone ill come grab it from you. which part of new york are you in? dont trash a pre production unit


I'm in western NY, but i haven't completely given up on it. With the colder weather approaching it just wont be very comfortable working on it. I'll stick it in the back of my garage for now and keep an eye out for something cheap with that particular engine. Since its a single stage and not dual that predator swap might not work out very well if i did manage to fit it correctly, i bet the cover would have to be majorly hacked up if I wanted to make it fit... and i wouldn't want to do that.


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## 43128 (Feb 14, 2014)

does it have a standard 4 bolt mounting base? if so predator will be almost perfect fit besides a little custom exhaust fab(easy for me dont know if you have a welder). most of those 5hp cranks are 3/4 inch and the predator mounting pattern should be the same


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## TheFanMan (Oct 10, 2017)

43128 said:


> does it have a standard 4 bolt mounting base? if so predator will be almost perfect fit besides a little custom exhaust fab(easy for me dont know if you have a welder). most of those 5hp cranks are 3/4 inch and the predator mounting pattern should be the same


 Interesting... It is a 4 bolt mounting base, but it's also secured to the left side of the blower frame by a plate that mounts to the sump cover...might be adaptable, might not, would have to see the engine. No welder here, that's out off my wheel house.


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## 43128 (Feb 14, 2014)

the predator bolt configuration is the same as tecumseh small frame engines and briggs engines under 5hp. side cover should line up to the existing mounting plate


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## 10953 (Sep 4, 2017)

TheFanMan said:


> Well this will likely be my last post in this thread, thanks to everyone that gave me suggestions... but i finally removed the crank, which took way more effort than it should have (a hammer). This explains some odd behavior i was seeing whenever i would tap on the end of the crank. Its disappointing that i wont get this thing running again, but cant win them all... still, i learned a lot from this, so not a total loss.


OUCH! that main bearing /case is gone. you could save it by finding a machine shop that can bore it out and install a groove'd brass bushing/bearing honed to size to save the block . yet the cost would be high

5.5 or a 6 with the same crank specs shouldn't be to hard to find


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## TheFanMan (Oct 10, 2017)

87 powershift said:


> OUCH! that main bearing /case is gone. you could save it by finding a machine shop that can bore it out and install a groove'd brass bushing/bearing honed to size to save the block . yet the cost would be high
> 
> 5.5 or a 6 with the same crank specs shouldn't be to hard to find



Ya, its unfortunate, i was saddened a bit when i saw it. Thanks for the suggestion, but i'm not looking to put that much $$$ into it, although i'm intrigued by the predator swap... even at sale price its more than i wanted to invest... but for fun, i might say why the **** not!  Have to put the Tecumseh back together... mostly, then reinstall it and take some measurements, might not even fit... but its a thought.


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## 10953 (Sep 4, 2017)

i hear that! keep your eyes open as if like around where i live there are many machines being left at curbs that don't run any more with bad carbs or coils other wise good engines .whats wrong with a free engine block , the serial numbers are stamped in the blower housing not stamped/etched into block like today, end result would be who would know other then your self 
your crankshaft looks to me like it could be polished and reused if the found donor has a different one, reassembly one mainly needs to make sure the oiler hole in the con rod is facing the right way if wrong you get a seized motor within 2 mins


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## TheFanMan (Oct 10, 2017)

87 powershift said:


> your crankshaft looks to me like it could be polished and reused if the found donor has a different one, reassembly one mainly needs to make sure the oiler hole in the con rod is facing the right way if wrong you get a seized motor within 2 mins


I wish it was, that's the most expensive part in the engine, but its also been damaged, doesn't look as bad as the bearing surface on the motor, but its lightly gouged.


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