# 1st Oil Change Ready?



## Michigan Paul (Dec 20, 2021)

My new, this season 721QZE has a couple hours on it. Book says change after 2 hours. Not sure how much more snow we're going to get, been minimal so far. (Figures, buy a new snowblower and we get hardly any snow ! !). Should I change the oil now or wait till the Spring storage put away in April. Lastly, 5W30 regular or synthetic, automotive oil or Toro branded oil? Looking at Wallyworld SuperTech or Menard's FVP 5W30 also. Inquiring minds just gotta know....... Thanks All


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## Oneacer (Jan 3, 2011)

5W30 *Full Synthetic* ..... any brand is fine really.

If it says 2 hours in the manual, and it's been 2 hrs., go for it..... it will not go bad sitting through til next season .. make sure your gas has additive in it ... . also, I would fire it up and run it a couple times throughout the year.


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## Michigan Paul (Dec 20, 2021)

Gonna change the oil to make sure this machine lasts me many many years to come. Synthetic it will be... Not sure what the dealer put in for gas but was only about 1/2 tank. I topped it up with TruFuel and have a good supply unopened (should we get snow).... Just ran it for about 15 minutes and purrs like a kitten with the newly installed NGK BPR6ES plug. Right off the bat, factory installed brand Bosch name actual Torch plug would miss every now and again... not now. WHERE'S THE SNOW ???..... Have to show up the neighbor who's hand me down Honda I had to get running end of last year.


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## Oneacer (Jan 3, 2011)

With your new machine, now we are not going to get any snow ....


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## Plan - B (May 3, 2021)

Sooner or later, it will come. Ask, me how I know.


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## robs9 (Sep 5, 2018)

So if you change over to a synthetic from dino oli. Do worry about the left over dino oil on the first synthetic fill? 

Or do you do a second synthetic change right after a few runs? 

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk


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## RIT333 (Feb 6, 2014)

If there is some left over, then you will be concocting your own formula for a synthetic blend. No problem at all.


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## orangputeh (Nov 24, 2016)

What the manufacturer suggests.
Wonder why regular people question the engineers who invented and built these engines.


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## Plan - B (May 3, 2021)

orangputeh said:


> What the manufacturer suggests.
> Wonder why regular people question the engineers who invented and built these engines.


Not so much as questioning the engineers, as it is want to be real sure about things.


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## WrenchIt (Dec 6, 2020)

Plan - B said:


> Not so much as questioning the engineers, as it is want to be real sure about things.


I understand that, but the engineers don't get the basics wrong. Sure, a Service Manual might have garbled English instructions, or a wrong torque here and there but things like service intervals. oil or grease are usually described by 'any brand that meets certain xxxxx specifications'.



Michigan Paul said:


> Book says change after 2 hours... Should I change the oil now or wait till the Spring


ICE engines usually wear the most in the first few hours of operation, and manufacturers sometimes use a special 'break-in' oil. They usually don't use a high performance friction cutting oil (like synthetics) because they want rings to seat and parts to wear in. This is less true today with more accurate machining than it was 50 years ago, but the first oil change serves to also get rid of any swarf and debris left in the crankcase during manufacturing.



robs9 said:


> So if you change over to a synthetic from dino oli. Do worry about the left over dino oil on the first synthetic fill?


Whenever you change oil there is always some old oil left in the galleries and in any ribbing/pockets on the bottom of the crankcase. This is not a problem, or manufacturers would design the engine to fully drain oil when you pull the plug. Small engines often use splash lubing, and do not have oil pumps with oil galleries so there will be relatively little old oil left. The synthetic brands for which I've read the labels usually say if you need to add oil, use whatever is at hand (spec'ing what to use first). Were syn's and dino incompatible, they would say so.


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## asavage (Dec 20, 2021)

orangputeh said:


> Wonder why regular people question the engineers who invented and built these engines.


Because the engineers don't write the manuals. 

The mfgrs have little incentive to maximize the life of the equipment they peddle. It's a race to the bottom.


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## orangputeh (Nov 24, 2016)

asavage said:


> Because the engineers don't write the manuals.
> 
> The mfgrs have little incentive to maximize the life of the equipment they peddle. It's a race to the bottom.


Your statements make NO sense.


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## asavage (Dec 20, 2021)

Sigh. I just heard a radio story about how the four largest manufacturers of household lamps conspired in the 1920s to reduce the effective life of a lamp from ~2500 hours to 1000 hours, to increase sales. They had teams of engineers working to _reduce_ the life of lamps. Documentation is in the Osram (Germany) archives.

The cabal fell apart during WWII, because some of the participants were on opposite sides in the war. In '53, some of this came to light because GE was being investigated for price fixing or anti-trust or something.

Point is, the manual you read does not have your best interest in mind. It's not written by engineers, and even if it was, again they are not necessarily trying to get you the longest service life from their product. I, too, filter what I read across my experience, which is considerable. We have learned to apply our own "regular people" (your words) knowledge against the mfgr's stuff.

I hope that makes sense to you.

(are you aware that B&S now touts their "never change the oil" engines now?
Just Check & Add™ Technology Innovation | Briggs & Stratton

If I bought one of those, do you think I'm going to not change the oil? You guess correct.)


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## Plan - B (May 3, 2021)

Along those lines. In 1999, I bought a new ford, 2000 Ranger. I, ask about rust proofing. I, was told Ford does not recomend it. Today, one should questing every thing.


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## asavage (Dec 20, 2021)

Ford for many years wrote that the fuel injection filter didn't need to be replaced . . . ever.

I've owned at least two vehicles (one was a MB with a 722.6 trans) whose transmission was "sealed for life". Yeah, 20 years down the line the fluid was pretty damned crappy and shifting was horrible. To give them credit, MB did eventually relent and issue an update on that, allowing that it might be OK to change the AT fluid after all.

And, then there's Ford's dummy oil pressure gauge, where Ford put a real gauge in the instrument panel, but put a 20 ohm resistor across a dummy light pressure switch, so the only two things the gauge could register was zero and mid-scale . . . here's a blast from my past (2008) on that one -> here.

Later, I drove a Ford E350 with a dummy _voltmeter_. Seriously, it could only register OFF and 14v. Caught me off-guard when the alternator went TU. 

I have a barrel full of stories like this.


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## Plan - B (May 3, 2021)

So, back to the question. Why do people question the engineers. Thats why, question every thing.


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## WrenchIt (Dec 6, 2020)

asavage said:


> Because the engineers don't write the manuals.
> 
> The mfgrs have little incentive to maximize the life of the equipment they peddle. It's a race to the bottom.


I'll echo GOT. That makes no sense at all. When a mfr gets a reputation for garbage machinery, word spreads, sales fall and their formerly good rep takes a hit. To say that companies strenuously try to maintain a good reputation is an understatement. 


asavage said:


> I I just heard a radio story about how the four largest manufacturers of household lamps conspired in the 1920s to reduce the effective life of a lamp from ~2500 hours to 1000 hours, to increase sales. They had teams of engineers working to _reduce_ the life of lamps. Documentation is in the Osram (Germany) archives.
> The cabal fell apart during WWII, because some of the participants were on opposite sides in the war. In '53, some of this came to light because GE was being investigated for price fixing or anti-trust or something.


Various companies conspire to fix prices all the time. It's also a crime in most countries and said collusion is not fostered by engineers. I'd wager if you did some real research you would find opposition among the ranks of the guys who designed those lamps.


asavage said:


> are you aware that B&S now touts their "never change the oil" engines now? If I bought one of those, do you think I'm going to not change the oil?


That has been discussed in other threads before. Those engines are aimed for the vast majority of homeowners who _never change the oil in their small engines_ and service them only when they break. More than a few of those folks put said easily fixed machines out for the trash and fuel the livelihoods of quite a few denizens of websites like this one. In fact, how many active members does this website, the tractor websites, the chainsaw websites, etc. have? Those numbers are small compared to the vast population of homeowners who use a mower, snowblower, chainsaw as needed.

There are a lot of reasons why manufacturers tend to cheapen their products, and that is bemoaned by many. The fact is, that push is fueled by people like us, who buy the cheapest of the cheap from purveyors like Amazon. We don't have to buy snowblowers assembled by idiots from Hopot but we do, and we bemoan the fact that the snowblower dealer two miles away went out of business a few years after Hopot and Lowe's showed up in our town. The manufacturers are simply giving the vast majority of us what we want - a machine that works ok for a reasonable length of time for the lowest cost and the aficionados like us be damned. But that is not the fault of the guys who design the machines. "We have met the enemy and he is us."


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## orangputeh (Nov 24, 2016)

asavage said:


> Sigh. I just heard a radio story about how the four largest manufacturers of household lamps conspired in the 1920s to reduce the effective life of a lamp from ~2500 hours to 1000 hours, to increase sales. They had teams of engineers working to _reduce_ the life of lamps. Documentation is in the Osram (Germany) archives.
> 
> The cabal fell apart during WWII, because some of the participants were on opposite sides in the war. In '53, some of this came to light because GE was being investigated for price fixing or anti-trust or something.
> 
> ...


That makes sense and after re-reading your previous post I have to agree........sadly.....Even Honda has gone downhill in the snowblower game. When Mr. Honda was alive , quality meant everything and not so much quantity. The new HSS machines are not made as well as the older HS series. Ask @ST1100A . He has been in the business most of his life. The HST on the new Honda's have a lot more problems than the older trannies. I have only seen 2 failed hydrostatic trannies from the older HS models in the last 6 years and half a thousand machines.

Having conversations weekly with Honda dealers and their certified techs , they all roll their eyes when speaking of the new HSS models. Disgusted with all the problems they have to deal with. One dealer told me ( off the record of course ) he would be surprised if a new Honda lasts 7 years.

The real test comes from the many snow removal companies in my area. I know a lot of these guys. Sometimes they buy an older HS828=928 from me for their business. One guy several years ago scraped his older fleet and bought all new HSS models and regrets it to this day. He is slowly buying older 828's 928' and 1132's for his fleet and asking me to work on them.

so , you're right. at the time I read your previous post I didnt wanna hear it. probably grumpy for some reason.

I still beleive we should listen to the engineers when it comes to type of oil , break in periods , specs and more. I do question the Honda manual. You do not have to remove the engine and bucket to perform many repairs. You do not have to remove everything to bleed the older hydro static transmission. There are engineering failures when you see so many handlebar failures. I weld gussets under the handles to shore that up. Or water contamination in the right side tranny and other design problems.


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## WrenchIt (Dec 6, 2020)

orangputeh said:


> I still beleive we should listen to the engineers when it comes to type of oil , break in periods , specs and more. I do question the Honda manual. You do not have to remove the engine and bucket to perform many repairs. You do not have to remove everything to bleed the older hydro static transmission. There are engineering failures when you see so many handlebar failures. I weld gussets under the handles to shore that up. Or water contamination in the right side tranny and other design problems.


I don't dispute you regarding the HSS vs HS machines. People want more convenience. My wife refuses to use our HS828 because its impossible to turn. (Now that I have new Carlisle tires recommended by the guy's here, she will never touch it.) And yes, Toyota Highlanders are not the car they once were nor are Hobart commercial mixers or virtually any other machine you can think of. So, GOT, who do you think came up with the grand idea to design the machine to a price point? How many engineers, designers, do you know who have enough clout to come up with that idea?

A little story. I took a MIG welding class at Lincoln Electric a couple of years ago. Our instructor had been w/ the company for 30+ years and when not teaching, was a troubleshooter for the company. Lincoln routinely will send their experts out to major customers to help diagnose welding problems with their (Lincoln's) machinery...usually robot welders. This instructor told us a bunch of his 'war' stories over the course of the several day course. A famous and huge mfr (they make yellow garden tractors, but I'll not name them) suddenly experienced problems and their Lincoln salesman called his buddy (my instructor) for help. This guy went to their factory, looked at the welds and said (shooting from the hip, he admitted) "gas problems, what mix are you running?" The shop foreman told him the right mix and they looked around at the machinery, but my instructor came back to gas after other causes were eliminated. He asked to see the manifold and pressure gages. Now, this enormous plant had liquid gas delivered to huge tanks and it was piped to a central manifold and distributed to each welding station. The foreman protested that the gas distribution area was in a locked cage and only the plant manager had a key. They got the PM involved and went to the cage. Sure enough, the gas mix was not what it should be. The PM did some investigating. I forget what they were using, but I think it was a CO2 - Argon mix and one of the gasses is way more expensive than the other. Bean counters had decided they could cut manufacturing costs by reducing the use of the expensive gas, so a couple of them purloined the key from the PM's office and changed the mix to make it cheaper. (No engineers were involved). This cost 3 days of down time for the entire plant and they scrapped half a day's production of mower decks and tractors with faulty welds. Our inspector said it cost them somewhere around a million dollars in lost production.

BTW, I cannot say enough good things about Lincoln's class. We spent half the day in a classroom, then half a day in the welding shop using top of the line equipment. Sure it cost me a few bucks, but the quality of schooling was excellent.


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## asavage (Dec 20, 2021)

WrenchIt said:


> There are a lot of reasons why manufacturers tend to cheapen their products, and that is bemoaned by many. The fact is, that push is fueled by people like us, who buy the cheapest of the cheap from purveyors like Amazon.


For almost my entire working life, I worked in Service. Maybe that separates me from your "people like us" above? I don't believe the shiny happy people on TV selling lifestyles, and I have been working where the rubber meets the road, have seen factory service manuals with obvious typos (and less obvious bad advice) more times than I can count. Anybody can typo, but some of the poor service info shoveled out to us sure seems intentional and deliberate.

When you work in the field, you see what the actual service life is of stuff. When I buy new (which isn't all that often, it's not a habit), I look at the range of what's reasonably available to suit my needs, and then research (mostly online) to see what problems other people are/have seen with that unit. I try to go in with my eyes open, and I hate paying for equipment that doesn't meet my expectations -- I pre-lower my expectations, as it were. But I also have the experience to make informed guesses about how that flimsy cable bracket may hold up (or fatigue and crack), or how that plastic starter housing may last after 200 rope pulls. And like that. I can see some problems coming from afar, and I decide whether to avoid them, or plan and mitigate them.

Sure, the average consumer just buys what's on sale at a box store, I get it. But I don't think I'm alone in questioning the value of new and shiny over better engineering, and I don't think I'm alone in paying more for a better product. There's a niche for people like me and new equipment, and at least in this one area, I am not a mass-market lemming (in other areas, I'm sure I am, but I'm talking about low price vs. value here).

---

My personal MO is to buy quality, used. I hate paying depreciation.

---
[later]
Here's a recent example of a typo in the official Honda shop manual for EU6500is, where the diagnosis advice is backward:


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## Plan - B (May 3, 2021)

Bought a new freezer last year. Bought it from a mom and pop shop. Same freezer as big box store, maybe, but service, will be better. Wil not have to talk to some one from ,who knows where, and not be able to understand what he said. I, do not mind paying for quality and good service.


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## asavage (Dec 20, 2021)

I live in a smallish town. I make an effort to buy local. My price tolerance is about 15%: that's the premium I'll pay to buy something local (at least on smallish stuff).

However . . . just because something's available local doesn't mean I get better service. An example: I use our Ace Hardware 1.5 mi. down the hill from me a lot. Everybody there lives in our community, and I check their inventory online first for things I need. Last month, I used the "Ship to Store" option to bring in some OPE, and they were pretty good about contacting me about a revised ETA -- nobody should expect on-time delivery right now, but that was nice.

However, I went to pick it up, and the box looked as if it'd been sitting in a warehouse in some dirty county for two years. The box was covered in loose dirt. Staff couldn't be bothered to wipe it off before presenting it to me, so that dirt got transferred to me and my vehicle until I got it home. Then, a part broke on it with 1.5 hours runtime on it, and Ace can't help. The mfgr. won't answer their phone (I called three times, an hour on hold each time, and each time was knocked off) and won't return calls left with VM and doesn't return email inquiries.

Small business has to do more than just be there to take my money. I return a lot of stuff to Amazon, usually because it arrives with missing pieces! For returns within 30 days, Amazon is nice to work with, but they sure ride their workers hard and put 'em away wet. Mixed bag.


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## Plan - B (May 3, 2021)

IMHO, Ace and True Value are courpate. One step down from a big box. We have a Ace here. I was talking to one of the guys that has been there for a long time, some of the thing he told me, well,,,, We have to do our best with what we have.


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## Thorenn (12 mo ago)

The Honda HSS928CTD owners manual specifies that the first oil change on a brand new snow blower should be after the first month or after 20 hours of engine run time. Do they mean whatever comes first? What if I have used the snowblower for just 1 hour? Do I still need to change the oil when 1 month of ownership is up? I expect to use the snow blower for around 20 hours before spring, so in that case, can I wait till spring to change the oil? Also, in spring, do I drain the fuel tank and carb or fill the fuel tank will fresh fuel and close the fuel tap to the carb and run the engine till the fuel in the carb is used up, before storing it till next winter? The angle of the opening to fill in fresh oil is very inconvenient and I need to buy a special funnel to fill in the oil without spilling it.


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## Plan - B (May 3, 2021)

You are going to get differnt opnions about the fuel. I, have a Areins blower. This is what was told to me by the rep at Ariens, I called the company. Drain all gas, or run till gas is gone and motor stops. Put True Fuel in tank, just enough to start motor. Run till stops. Do this three times, to make sure fuel system is flushed out. If you are useing gas with enathnol. After the motor stops, after the fuel system is flushed out, drain the carb. Put blower away. My blower is 11 years old, never have a problem with it starting in the fall. I, change oil, every spring. Just before I put it away.


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## asavage (Dec 20, 2021)

Ethanol-free fuel at the pump is cheap here; there's only a $0.25 premium over Regular. However, I have to drive 1.5 hours round-trip to buy it (the closest station that carries ethanol-free). So I tend to buy only twice a year, and keep enough on hand to last six months.

I fall in the "treated gasoline for storage" camp, but that's because I've been too lazy to drain the fuel tank. For the quantity I go through, Sta-Bil is inexpensive enough so I can treat ALL fuel as it comes to our property, so in theory it's all good for a year.

---
The recommendation to change the oil on a new machine at one month is a new one for me. Oil contamination (water, primarily*) is the only reason I can think of this short oil change interval. Typically, the additive package in modern PCMO does not degrade significantly over time at all; it's only when the oil is dealing with wear (shear, temperature, etc.) or contamination that it needs to be replaced.

So, I'd be interested in hearing an explanation of that one.

* Water is a byproduct of combustion of gasoline, etc.: each gallon of oxidized gasoline produces ~1-1.5 gallons of water! The exact quantity depends both on the composition of the "gasoline" -- which is a complex mix of stuff, actually -- and how clean the engine burns. Less efficient engines dump more unburned gasoline out the exhaust, and that unburned gasoline does not produce water


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## WrenchIt (Dec 6, 2020)

asavage said:


> Sigh. I just heard a radio story about how the four largest manufacturers of household lamps conspired in the 1920s to reduce the effective life of a lamp from ~2500 hours to 1000 hours, to increase sales. They had teams of engineers working to _reduce_ the life of lamps. Documentation is in the Osram (Germany) archives.


I have a friend who worked for GE for most of his adult life as an engineer, then as the leader of a team of engineers in the lighting division. (He also worked on nuclear reactors, but that is not relevant here.) He is extremely smart - not only about lighting but also English sports cars, he has raced, plays guitars and the bass in a band, and restores motorcycles. I copied what you wrote about the news article above and asked him if he knew anything about it. This is his response:

_"Complete BS, no conspiracy. There was anti-trust legislation in the ‘20’s to break up GE as they clandestinely owned most of the brands before. Later on all the global manufacturers (GE, Philips, Westinghouse and Sylvania) were all pushing to get more light out of the bulbs which reduces life. Karan was a really small player until the ‘60’s and it’s because they stole much of Philips technology during WWII. 

It’s simple physics to make a piece of tungsten incandescent. You want it to last forever then make it barely glow so no tungsten evaporates off the coil. You want a reasonable LPW (lumens per watt) then you push the CCT up to 2700K or higher. Incandescent light bulbs slowly blacken due to the deposit of evaporated tungsten and the thinnest spot eventually succumbs to the cold in-rush current spike and the filament fails. That’s why they almost always pop when you flip the switch. 

Halogen is a high performance version that keeps the evaporation rate low but not zero. Halogen lamps can either have higher LPW (higher CCT) or longer life depending on market requirements. 

All moot now since they’ve all been outlawed by energy regulations." _
My comment - CCT = color temperature_._

This is what I meant by do some research before believing a single news cast. While I don't necessarily believe everything friends tell me, some of them (like this guy) really see things clearly, have the necessary education, experience and horsepower to understand and know a lot. This guy gets my respect in many areas.



Thorenn said:


> The Honda HSS928CTD owners manual specifies that the first oil change on a brand new snow blower should be after the first month or after 20 hours of engine run time. Do they mean whatever comes first?


I answered a similar question recently. Generally speaking, ICE experience the most wear in the first few hours of operation - this is why mfrs schedule an oil change after a few hours of operation but not again for 25 or 50 hour intervals. That first change also cleans out any manufacturing debris - swarf, dirt, etc. that finds its way to the bottom of the crankcase. If Honda does not expect their dealers to change the oil after it sits in their showroom for more than a day after readying it for sale (assuming they don't add oil just as it walks out the door), then I'd guess your oil change period would be after the first 20 hours. I would also not use synthetic (unless Honda says its ok) for the first couple of changes - you want the rings to seat well first. Call Honda directly and ask them when you should change the oil for the first time. I'm cynical enough (and been screwed by one certified Honda motorcycle mechanic) to call a few dealerships - nearby and far away, and ask their service department this question to see if there is a consensus.

Were this my machine, I'd probably keep track of how long I ran it, and probably change it after most of the snow season was over - I'd typically run it maybe 6 to 10 hours each season. I only use my HS828 for major snowfalls (8" or more), otherwise its our fleet of Toro Powerlite E's for my 95' long driveway.


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## Thorenn (12 mo ago)

Thanks Wrenchit. I will follow your advice and change the oil after 20 hours of use. I can empathize with your experience with certified Honda showroom personnel. The sales guy who I dealt with did not know much about snowblowers at all. He had to refer to literature to answer almost every question I asked him. He has no idea where Honda two-stage snowblowers were assembled and he told me that the HSS928CTD had a fuel injection system instead of a carburetor. He also told me that the 724 and the 928 had the same engine.


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## asavage (Dec 20, 2021)

WrenchIt said:


> I have a friend who worked for GE for most of his adult life as an engineer, then as the leader of a team of engineers in the lighting division.
> 
> _"Complete BS, no conspiracy. . . . "_
> 
> This is what I meant by do some research before believing a single news cast. While I don't necessarily believe everything friends tell me, some of them (like this guy) really see things clearly, have the necessary education, experience and horsepower to understand and know a lot. This guy gets my respect in many areas.


I chased this lightly. The news article I mentioned was NPR's _Planet Money._ This is a show whose purpose is to produce fun segments that highlight commonalities or anomolies in our economic systems; I don't think of it as a scholarly program necessarily.

Wikipedia has a short article on the _Phoebus cartel_. A relevant extract (from a 1951 report by a UK commission):

_It has often been alleged—though not in evidence to us—that the Phoebus organisation artificially made the life of a lamp short with the object of increasing the number of lamps sold . . . Accordingly we must dismiss as misconceived the allegation referred to above._​It seems that that agrees with your former GE employee friend, that allegations that manufacture of common lamps were jointly agreed to have a useful average life of 1000 hours, were complete BS. However, Wiki is _also_ not an unbiased, scholarly reference, and that was one commission's official finding, so ?

Another quote from that Wiki article:

_"The cartel tested their bulbs and fined manufacturers for bulbs that lasted more than 1,000 hours."_

That is, if you were a Phoebus cartel member (and the world's six largest lamp mfgrs were) and you sold lamps that lasted more than 1000 hours, the cartel fined you. Per lamp. As a cartel member, you were literally unable to sell a longer-lasting lamp (I am exagerating here, as there have always been special-purpose lamps, but for the purpose of this discussion I am referring to mass-market consumer lamps). 

A fun quote from the _Planet Money_ segment"

_"Well, they're experimenting with different materials. They're, like, changing the size of the filament. I mean, you have to imagine that for a long time, the engineers at these companies were trying to make light bulbs better. And what Markus sees in some of these documents is engineers comparing notes, like, going against all their training and now trying to make the product worse. It actually took a few years after the agreement was signed before they were even technologically able to make the light bulb as bad as they wanted it to be."_​
While the tradeoff of lumens/watt vs filament life is a graphable variable and well known, that's a different discussion than collusive practices that increase sales by lowering value to consumers, which was I think my point. It could be that the engineers were told to optimize for the variable "lumens per watt" instead of longevity, and by optimizing for electrical efficiency -- getting more light from less juice -- they reduced the lifespan. But that's not what the available documentation says they were measuring: they were measuring _lifespan_, not lumens.

Anyway, I'm not here to beat a gong for any particular conspiracy theory; I don't think anyone will seriously argue that mfgrs selling widgets (and the engineers they employ) are in it for the sole benefit of the consumer buying widgets. I have a dim view of purported good intentions posited by people trying to advance the theory that all engineers work toward making better widgets, when my observation have shown me several examples of the opposite.

(Oh, one of my careers involved a lot of work with lighting systems, so I'm famiar with CCT, but thanks for expanding the initialism, as not everyone reading here would be up on that.)

Was it HP that calls this Value Engineering? I forget, and I'm too lazy after all that wall of words above to go look it up. The practice of removing costs until the target performance is _just barely achieved_. I believe that overall, the target performance is declining, not increasing, in consumer goods these days. Generically, one could label that "declining quality".

So, restating, I do not read an Owners Manual and take the recommendations on oil change interval or whatever as gospel handed down from God on tablets of stone, because 1) Engineers do not typically write user documentation (exceptions exist), and 2) The mfgrs do not have my best outcome in mind when they advise on maintenance, only the minimum requirements to prevent breakdown under warranty.


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