# 27" 8HP Trackdrive SnowKing won't start



## jfriesen (Jan 24, 2018)

I just bought a used Murray Snow King 27" 8 hp track drive (model# 627806X10). When I bought it is started up on first pull and ran pretty good. Got it home and it started up fine and ran a short path at the end it sputtered like it was running out of gas. So I shut it down and added just a little bit of what was left of the gas I had left over from mowing (87 Octane). Snow blower started up but wouldn't stay running so I pulled her back in to the garage and left her for the time being (left the gas shut-off valve open). 

A day or so later I ran to the gas station and picked up some non-oxygenated gas (91 Octane) and poured some into the tank. Snow blower started up but wouldn't stay running (choke on and full idle with 3 shots of primer). Started her up again and the same thing (choke on and full idle with 3 shots of primer). Tried to start her again and no dice! Pulled maybe half a dozen times and then all of a sudden there was no give. Could not pull the cord anymore. 

I left it for a bit and came back later and removed the spark plug in order to remove the pull cord assembly. Pull cord assembly moves freely so I threw a socket on the engine and tried to turn it over by hand and it barely moves in either direction with moderate effort. 

I have since reassembled all parts and topped off the oil.

I contacted the guy I bought it from and he thinks its bad gas and that I need to drain the entire fuel system and clean tank, lines and carb.

Does anyone have any thoughts on what may be going on?


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## Jatoxico (Jan 6, 2018)

Possibly similar problem? Check the oil and smell for gas. Remove plug and try to turn over.

http://www.snowblowerforum.com/foru...ce-forum/133201-too-much-oil-please-help.html


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## jfriesen (Jan 24, 2018)

Compared to other machines (lawn mower, edger, etc...) I think it smells rich. But then I have read its better to smell rich then to run lean. 

I should also mention that when I pulled the spark plug it was pretty black but visually appeared to be normal gap and wear. 

I quickly scrubbed with a wire brush and returned since I don't think my issue is spark. If someone could shed some light on what all happens in a hydro lock situation and how to correct it...that would be great.


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## Robert A Fierro (Jan 24, 2018)

Check oil level!!!!!

Re: Hydrolock.... the engine's cylinder gets filled with liquid oil, gas or water... since fluids cannot be compressed, the piston in it's upstroke gets to a point where it can't move upwards. The usual test for this is to remove the spark plug and see what if anything comes out of the sparkplug hole when the engine is slowly turned over. This can be very messy. Sometimes no harm is done and after fixing the cause for fluids getting into the cylinder all is OK.... Sometimes, catastrophic damage occurs.


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

Hydro lock is fluid in the cylinder (uncompressible) which effectively stops upward piston motion. The reason to pull the plug (as recommended) was more to see if the cylinder had fluid in it, causing the difficulty in rotation, than to inspect the plug (but that was a good ideaas well).


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## jfriesen (Jan 24, 2018)

Ok so when I had pulled the spark plug and recoil start assembly originally, I turned the engine manually and didn't notice and fluid spewing out...from what it sounds like if the engine was hydro locked I would have seen this. 

So is there something else that it could be? I dont hear any metallic scratches or clunks really so I feel as though I am a bit at a loss. 

Any thoughts?


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## Jatoxico (Jan 6, 2018)

jfriesen said:


> Tried to start her again and no dice! Pulled maybe half a dozen times and *then all of a sudden there was no give. Could not pull the cord anymore.*
> 
> I left it for a bit and came back later and removed the spark plug in order to remove the pull cord assembly. Pull cord assembly moves freely so *I threw a socket on the engine and tried to turn it over by hand and it barely moves in either direction with moderate effort.*


Does the engine turn over now or not, I'm not clear?


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## jfriesen (Jan 24, 2018)

Engine will turn over manually with a wrench with moderate to significant effort.


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## Jatoxico (Jan 6, 2018)

The motor should turn pretty easy with the plug out, a little harder with it in. If you cannot turn the motor with the pull cord I would pull that and see if that has broken and is somehow jambed up. I'm still not entirely clear, has anything changed since you removed the plug? Before you said you could not move it either direction, now it can move. Are you just being more forceful or is it freed up?


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## jfriesen (Jan 24, 2018)

jfriesen said:


> I left it for a bit and came back later and removed the spark plug in order to remove the pull cord assembly. *Pull cord assembly moves freely so I threw a socket on the engine and tried to turn it over by hand and it barely moves in either direction with moderate effort*.


Engine does not turn over via recoil start. I disassembled the recoil start assembly (ie. pull cord assembly) and it moved freely and there are no signs of issues with that. 

With the recoil start assembly removed I tried to turn the engine over with a wrench. With significant force I was able to turn the engine in either direction, but as you said it should move with minor effort.

Since I did this with the spark plug removed I would think that if it were 'hydro-locked' I would hear spitting and gurgling and fluid would spurt out from the spark plug hole. However, that did not happen. 

So now I am wondering what else could it be. Thoughts?


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## Jatoxico (Jan 6, 2018)

I guess you can test for compression but unless you are able to see the cylinder walls it sounds like you may be pulling the head. I don't see where you mentioned what engine this is.


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## Kiss4aFrog (Nov 3, 2013)

You didn't mention if you've pulled the belt cover to see if the belt(s) are loose on the pulley(s). If one of the tensioners is stuck it will cause some pretty hefty drag when trying to start the machine.


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## Shryp (Jan 1, 2011)

Yes, I would remove all the belts from the engine. This will completely isolate the engine from the rest of the machine and let you know if the issue is the engine or something in the transmission or something.

Check the oil level as well. I don't think I have ever heard of hydrolock from the bottom, but I would think the same applies if the piston can't go down as if it can't go up.


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

If it's hard to turn with the spark plug removed then it's not hydrolocked in the traditional sense (above the piston). 

Like Shryp said, it could have to do with the oil level in the crankcase, but I'd be surprised. Oil should be coming out of the crankcase breather if that was the case. But, as a test, while you're double-checking the oil level (just to be safe), leave the oil fill cap removed, and try turning the engine over. If it suddenly turns freely, then it has something to do with the crankcase oil level, maybe somehow being WAY too high. 

But I'm also curious about what you'll find under the belt cover, for instance. Maybe something is just jammed up. 

About the seller saying it's bad gas, I disagree. Bad gas won't make it so that you can't rotate an engine by hand. I'm glad there are no metallic scraping or clunk noises, at least, that's good. See what you find with the belts, and if there's nothing there, maybe peek at the flywheel area. If it has an electric start, is the starter's gear retracted, and disengaged from the teeth on the flywheel?


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## Shryp (Jan 1, 2011)

Even though you checked the magnets on the flywheel you might have some loose inside the flywheel. If the coil is on the outside of the flywheel and it has a charging / lighting circuit then those magnets will be inside the flywheel.


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## jfriesen (Jan 24, 2018)

Thanks everyone for the suggestions, I will dig in deeper over the weekend and report back what I find.


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## jfriesen (Jan 24, 2018)

OK well here is where things are today. This weekend I pulled the belt cover off and made sure there was no physical blockage...none. Next I removed the spark plug and oil fill and pulled the manual recoil...no sputtering or spewing of any fluids although after 1-2 hard pulls noticed that the pulls became much easier again. Returned spark plug and left oil fill cap loose as well as opening gas cap and leaving loose...set to full idle, set choke to full on, primed 3x and started...did not start...again...sputtered...again...fired up, ran and died....again....started and ran (albeit a bit rough) within 1-2mins leveled out and began to idle...turned choke to 50%....idle smoothed out...ran another 1-2 minutes...moved through the gears and checked forward reverse no auger....worked great! Turned choke to off...engine seems good, noticed a bit of smoke coming from front of the engine and around belts...and then BANG! 

Pretty sure that BANG means the 8hp Tecumseh is done, through a rod. Completely unable to pull manual recoil at this point. 

Any thoughts?!

....So now I am considering picking up a Predator 301cc 8hp engine from Harbor Freight, if anyone has any recommendations or advice I would gladly appreciate it...Thanks.


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## Kiss4aFrog (Nov 3, 2013)

It's just a matter of do you like this one enough to spend ?? (HF 301cc) to get it running or apply ?? to something else. Devil you know, devil you don't.
If it's in good shape and you go with the HP engine you hopefully have a good machine with standard maintenance and at least no engine problems for a decade.

.


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## jsup (Nov 19, 2017)

jfriesen said:


> OK well here is where things are today. This weekend I pulled the belt cover off and made sure there was no physical blockage...none. Next I removed the spark plug and oil fill and pulled the manual recoil...no sputtering or spewing of any fluids although after 1-2 hard pulls noticed that the pulls became much easier again. Returned spark plug and left oil fill cap loose as well as opening gas cap and leaving loose...set to full idle, set choke to full on, primed 3x and started...did not start...again...sputtered...again...fired up, ran and died....again....started and ran (albeit a bit rough) within 1-2mins leveled out and began to idle...turned choke to 50%....idle smoothed out...ran another 1-2 minutes...moved through the gears and checked forward reverse no auger....worked great! Turned choke to off...engine seems good, noticed a bit of smoke coming from front of the engine and around belts...and then BANG!
> 
> Pretty sure that BANG means the 8hp Tecumseh is done, through a rod. Completely unable to pull manual recoil at this point.
> 
> ...


I wonder what caused it to blow, or started the problem in the beginning


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## RedOctobyr (Mar 2, 2014)

I'd like you to put in the 301cc Predator, so the rest of us can learn more about them 

But the 212cc Predator is obviously popular around here, and is cheap, around $99. So depending on how budget factors into the discussion, that's also an option. 

People report them being pretty powerful, more than their 212cc would suggest, at least if you spin them faster (maybe 4000-4400).


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## jfriesen (Jan 24, 2018)

Kiss4aFrog said:


> It's just a matter of do you like this one enough to spend ?? (HF 301cc) to get it running or apply ?? to something else. Devil you know, devil you don't.
> If it's in good shape and you go with the HP engine you hopefully have a good machine with standard maintenance and at least no engine problems for a decade.
> 
> .


Agreed. But there isn't much to these things besides the engine and all the other mechanicals appear to be in good condition. Of course, I thought that about the engine too thats why I bought it. 



jsup said:


> I wonder what caused it to blow, or started the problem in the beginning
> 
> .


From what I have researched this seems to be what happens with these older Tecumseh engines, they work fine one day and the next they throw rods. 



RedOctobyr said:


> I'd like you to put in the 301cc Predator, so the rest of us can learn more about them
> 
> .


That is definitely the route I am leaning...my concern is I bought the SnowKing used for $150, if I get the Predator 301cc for $200 then I am into it for $350. I have no concern that the 301cc will do the job and I have read nothing except good reviews on the Predator engines. However, I am concerned about how long they will hold up. At best in MN this snowblower will get used once a week for 5 months (so ~20x). So the return on investment if I got 10 years out of the things ends up costing me $1.75 each time I use it. So if I consider going and getting a similar (8/27) new snowblower (they range between $400-$3k, so lets say I spend $1k) my return would cost me $5 each time I use the **** thing. At that rate I could buy 2-3 more engines and replace them everytime I ran into and issue and still come out ahead. 

So....I guess financially the Predator makes sense and if I went with the 212cc I would be saving even more $$$. But I would love to hear from anyone that actually has experience doing this and if I could actually get 10 years out of the Chinese (Harbor Freight) Predator Honda clone


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## Kiss4aFrog (Nov 3, 2013)

The guys with go carts and pit bikes have a slew of options to bolt onto them and spin the crap out of them and they're not complaining about longevity or reliability. I don't know you'll get a decade but I personally would sure expect it. At least a decade using in a blower.
On the forum you do see a lot of blown Tecumseh engines and it's usually a connecting rod cracking the case under the starter. BUT it's because this is where people come with a problem and as we've mentioned before it might seem it's a common thing but out in the real world there are 50 years worth of these engines running along just fine. A lot of us still have the original Tec engines sitting on our 1960's and '70's machines. 

One of the sites with Predator parts: https://www.ombwarehouse.com/performance-parts/predator/predator-212cc/

Youtube modified 212cc Predators: https://www.google.com/search?q=mod...rome..69i57.7951j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8


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## jfriesen (Jan 24, 2018)

So if you were going to replace the engine with a predator would you go 212 or 301? Currently I have the Tec 8hp so I am leaning on the 301 myself.


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## FlamingSpaghetti (Jan 8, 2018)

jfriesen said:


> OK well here is where things are today. This weekend I pulled the belt cover off and made sure there was no physical blockage...none. Next I removed the spark plug and oil fill and pulled the manual recoil...no sputtering or spewing of any fluids although after 1-2 hard pulls noticed that the pulls became much easier again. Returned spark plug and left oil fill cap loose as well as opening gas cap and leaving loose...set to full idle, set choke to full on, primed 3x and started...did not start...again...sputtered...again...fired up, ran and died....again....started and ran (albeit a bit rough) within 1-2mins leveled out and began to idle...turned choke to 50%....idle smoothed out...ran another 1-2 minutes...moved through the gears and checked forward reverse no auger....worked great! Turned choke to off...engine seems good, noticed a bit of smoke coming from front of the engine and around belts...and then BANG!
> 
> Pretty sure that BANG means the 8hp Tecumseh is done, through a rod. Completely unable to pull manual recoil at this point.
> 
> ...


Do you know for sure what the bang was from? Did the rod punch a hole through the side of the block? If the engine block has no hole, the engine may be repairable and rods are easy to come by. I would look further into this before investing $200 into another engine, especially since the Murray may be a dual shaft engine.

My MTD had a similar symptom a few years back and produced quite a loud bang. Turns out the belt was getting stuck between the belt guide and the pulley and while running, it was smoking and then I heard a sudden loud bang and the engine stopped. The belt had snapped, wrapped itself around the pulley and ripped the belt guide right off the screw. The engine which I thought had blown was perfectly fine after installing a new belt and belt guide.


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## jfriesen (Jan 24, 2018)

FlamingSpaghetti said:


> Do you know for sure what the bang was from? Did the rod punch a hole through the side of the block? If the engine block has no hole, the engine may be repairable and rods are easy to come by. I would look further into this before investing $200 into another engine, especially since the Murray may be a dual shaft engine.
> 
> My MTD had a similar symptom a few years back and produced quite a loud bang. Turns out the belt was getting stuck between the belt guide and the pulley and while running, it was smoking and then I heard a sudden loud bang and the engine stopped. The belt had snapped, wrapped itself around the pulley and ripped the belt guide right off the screw. The engine which I thought had blown was perfectly fine after installing a new belt and belt guide.


Well I am pretty sure its not a dual shaft setup.

I guess I am not 100% sure...but I am completely unable to pull start it and there was a BANG, so those things combined lead me to believe that significant engine work would need to be done...not sure in MN that I could have a small engine shop repair or even diagnose the issue for less than $100 which is what the Predator 212CC (6.5hp) engine goes for at Harbor Freight. All reviews are extremely positive so that leads me to think and engine swap is the most economical route at this point.


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## FlamingSpaghetti (Jan 8, 2018)

jfriesen said:


> Well I am pretty sure its not a dual shaft setup.
> 
> I guess I am not 100% sure...but I am completely unable to pull start it and there was a BANG, so those things combined lead me to believe that significant engine work would need to be done...not sure in MN that I could have a small engine shop repair or even diagnose the issue for less than $100 which is what the Predator 212CC (6.5hp) engine goes for at Harbor Freight. All reviews are extremely positive so that leads me to think and engine swap is the most economical route at this point.


Pull the belt cover off and inspect the belts. You're going to need to do this anyway to identify what kind of engine you need. My 23" Craftsman which I believe was made by Murray at the time had a 5HP (Now an 8HP Tecumseh) engine on it that was dual shaft. The main PTO powers the auger/impeller and the PTO off the camshaft drives the track drive system. If this is the case for your machine, your only option is another Tecumseh with the two shafts. (As far as I know, at least without significant modification to the blower itself)

If your engine turns out to be blown, I'm sorry for your loss. Tecumseh engines are great motors and have seemed to gain a bad reputation for throwing connecting rods. Shame you're not closer to me because these engines are easy to work on and I would be happy to help out.

Look on the fuel tank side of your engine right below the cylinder. If you see a crack or a hole anywhere, that's a good indicator of a catastrophic rod failure.


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## jfriesen (Jan 24, 2018)

@FlamingSpaghetti, thanks for the tips I will check it out when I get home from work.


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## Nunner (Nov 15, 2021)

If you have manual. Post it please.


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