# Will the 212cc predator have enough power for this swap?



## scipper77

Right now I have a 2005 craftsman that has a 27" path and an 8.5 hp briggs. The unit has super low hours but (because) the motor has been nothing but trouble. In short I replaced the head gasket only to find it runs lean and stalls for various reasons. The valves were checked when the head was swapped and are adjusted correctly. The carb has been cleaned more than once. I could go on but that's not really the point of this thread.

My question is simple. Will a 6.5 hp predator be enough to power this 27" machine that originally had an 8.5? (briggs was sued for overrating there motors so its more likely really an 8 hp) 

I realize this is an opinion question so please feel free to say what's on your mind.


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## Colored Eggs

My opinion would be to see if the bigger predator if itwill fit on your frame. I think 212cc would run your machine but just not at its potential. It may even bog down a bit in heavy snow. I have a 212 on a 21" snowblower which is about right Its overpowered for light snow but if I were to get some big deep heavy snow it would still have enough spare power to shoot it across the yard.


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## Shryp

The 212cc handles my 24" Ariens just fine that originally came with a 8 HP Tecumseh. I have a 12" impeller and increased the stock pulley from 2 5/8" to 3 1/4" which bumped the impeller speed from 1050 RPM to 1300 RPM and it handles the extra load. During our recent storm I found that I had no trouble driving through drifts around 24" tall. (Higher than the bucket.) The only time I heard the engine sound like maybe it would die if I kept pushing was when I was going through already blown snow in 3rd gear. Silly me didn't set the deflector high enough when trying to avoid the neighbors drive, then I forgot I was in third gear because there wasn't much snow in a low spot where there wasn't huge drifts.

If you were to run into power problems you could always go slightly smaller on the auger pulley and slow the augers down a bit to get extra torque.

As for the lean running of your Briggs, my Predator was surging when I got it and I had to take the carb apart and open the jets slightly to get more fuel in it. I also found a metal flake in the low speed jet and taking that out of there helped a bit too.


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## CarlB

I think the 212cc predator will work fine for you in most snow falls. If you find that it is working too hard in deep or very wet snow, just take a smaller bite. I repowered my 26" cub cadet which came from the factory with an 8hp engine with a 11hp Greyhound engine from harbor freight and it will eat into packed EOD snow with no issues. I think you will be fine with the 212cc predator.


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## ranvette

I have seen the 212 in action i would say it throws as good as a strong 7 HP Tec L head or close to it.But if it was me and your keeping the blower i would go with the 11 HP for a 27 inch.Spend a few more bucks and be happy and done with it.But i would also have fixed the 8.5.Never played with 1 yet i couldnt fix.But i also work as a chevy master tech so that helps to !


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## scipper77

As far as the Briggs is concerned I have had it apart for the head gasket, I have had the carb off twice. Now it only runs at half choke. And while running it will just die in the middle of a pass. Could be vapor lock, could be an air leak at the intake, could be a coil heating up and shorting. I have checked these things yet the problem still persists. 

I have recently found some info on the internet indicating that this problem is common with my motor.

I'm to the point where I would rather spend $100 to have a unit that works. The larger predator motors are significantly more and based on the performance I get out of my ariens with a predator swap I honestly believe the 212 cc motor will be more than enough.


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## ranvette

Takeing a guess! I would bet the carb is the problem.I had one Tec 8HP snow King that would Miss fire under load here and there.I must have had that carb apart 5 times every passage looked just fine.I did check the timeing and at the same time replaced the points,condenser and Coil.A 35 year old motor it made no sense not to.Any way i put on a brand new made in china replacement carb(Oregon) and the motor ran like a champ.Running strong and going on 4 years.I am not sure about Brigs applications? But i would put a adjust air fuel mixture carb on it if one was available.


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## GustoGuy

*I agree the HF 212cc at least as powerful as 8hp Tec or Briggs*



ranvette said:


> I have seen the 212 in action i would say it throws as good as a strong 7 HP Tec L head or close to it.But if it was me and your keeping the blower i would go with the 11 HP for a 27 inch.Spend a few more bucks and be happy and done with it.But i would also have fixed the 8.5.Never played with 1 yet i couldnt fix.But i also work as a chevy master tech so that helps to !



Here is the HF 212cc in action against 11 inches of snow. 





NR racing did a base dyno for horsepower on the 212cc Predator engine and they put on a low restriction K&N style air filter and re jetted it richer with 140 emulsion tube and found that the engine puts out 9 hp stock with out cracking open the engine to modify anything. I say my Predator 212cc is at least as strong as an 8hp Briggs flathead and I own both so I can make that call. I agree use a coupon and get the 346cc 11hp engine for the 27inch blower it will be a beast with that engine. It will still work fine with the 212cc just will not be as much of a beast. Put an impeller kit on your machine as well it really improves snow throwing ability.


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## gsnod

I also just received an e-mail from Harbor Freight about a sale on January Blowout Sale on January 10, 11 and 12....they have the 212 Predator engine on sale for $97.99. 

I assume we can use the 25% coupon? As a side, I plan to get one of these to replace my blown 8 HP Tecumseh....and probably I'll need to replace the pulleys due to shaft size.


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## ranvette

Nice video ! That baby is potent ! HOTRODDIN’ THE PREDATOR

http://www.kartpartsdepot.com/help_answer.asp?ID=11


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## GustoGuy

No hotrodding just jetted richer to run well when cold. I seen that article back about 2 years ago and NR racing builds kits to hop them up. The stage 4 kit has all the necessary billet forged parts for safety and the 212cc engine will put out 14 hp when all the parts are put togather in the engine. I have the same engine on a minibike and I only hogged out the air cleaner and jetted it richer. I then needed to enlarge the jet even more to get it to run great and Wow. It originally was a little doodle bug mini bike that had a gutless 2.8hp engine on it. Now it has a solid 7hp at least and goes like a speedster up to about 35mph only limited by the 12t Maxtorque front clutch and the stock rear sprocket. I seen some guys have put GTC Tav2 on them which looks like a small snowmobile transmission and they will do over 50mph with these just with the stock engine. Unfortunately it turned it into a wheelie machine and my stepdaughter and wife and stepdaughters boyfriend all wiped out on it. So I added 18lbs of steel to the frame in front of the engine to balance the weight better 6lbs on the frame down low right infront of the engine and 12lbs right over the top of the front wheel on the number plate bracket. Here is a picture of it. The 18lbs of steel really made it more forgiving for novice riders since I do not have to remind them to lean forward when acelerating. No it just shoots forward and not over.


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## nt40lanman

Imagine doing all that to the larger predator...


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## ajpleblanc

nt40lanman said:


> Imagine doing all that to the larger predator...


Just put a hemi in it...


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## GustoGuy

ajpleblanc said:


> Just put a hemi in it...


 The newest version of the Predator 212cc is a hemi head design. Larger stainless steel valves for better breathing. You can add the Hemi head on to your old Predator if you like. You would not believe how many aftermarket racing parts there is for this engine. 
*Home > Parts > Racing Parts (Honda & Clones) > Heads, Racing > Hemi Heads (212 Predator) & Conversion Kits* We found 1 results matching your criteria.














*Sort By:* Price: Low to High Price: High to Low Most Popular Title Manufacturer Newest Oldest Availability 














100 per page 200 per page 400 per page *Page of 1*




































Head, Racing, Hemi for 212 Predators and 6.5 Clones  *Our Price: $209.00*

 








 Hemi Style Race head for 212 Predators and GX200s. Includes Valve Cover and Rockers. Everything you need to install (except head gasket and pushrods).

Heads are built to order and take 3 to 5 days to ship.


Fully Ported and bead blasted (option to delete) 
Milled to increase compression 
Choice of OEM or Lightweight Stainless Valves 
Aluminum retainers and Split Keepers with Stainless valves. 
3 angle valve job 
 Choice of single or dual springs
 Please contact us before ordering dual Valve springs.

Requires OEM Predator or Copper Head Gasket (not included)
Gasket, Head Copper for Predator, Hemi Head (New style)

Also requires 5.35 to 5.45 pushrods (not included)


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## scipper77

Just to give some background on why I am a little suspicious that there may be a design flaw with my particular setup here is a link to someone else thread I found through a google search. 
http://www.doityourself.com/forum/outdoor-gasoline-electric-powered-equipment-small-engines/372533-sears-craftsman-snow-thrower-dying.html#b
Just skimming it I saw post 1, 6, 20, 37,and 38 were all different people having the exact same issue that I had. Post #23 is especially interesting to me. If you click the link at least read #23.

Last season I took the fuel line, gas tank. primer assembly, and carb assembly off and blew compressed air through the lines and with lower pressure checked the needle and seat assemble and that seemed to help with the random shutting off. This year it did it again but the tank was nearly empty.

I am pretty good with small engines but this link I the biggest reason why I feel this may be a case to just cut my losses and put on a motor that I can have confidence in on it. Because I am good with motors I just can not stand to have a motor that doesn't run right.


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## GustoGuy

scipper77 said:


> Just to give some background on why I am a little suspicious that there may be a design flaw with my particular setup here is a link to someone else thread I found through a google search.
> Sears Craftsman Snow Thrower Dying - DoItYourself.com Community Forums
> Just skimming it I saw post 1, 6, 20, 37,and 38 were all different people having the exact same issue that I had. Post #23 is especially interesting to me. If you click the link at least read #23.
> 
> Last season I took the fuel line, gas tank. primer assembly, and carb assembly off and blew compressed air through the lines and with lower pressure checked the needle and seat assemble and that seemed to help with the random shutting off. This year it did it again but the tank was nearly empty.
> 
> 
> I am pretty good with small engines but this link I the biggest reason why I feel this may be a case to just cut my losses and put on a motor that I can have confidence in on it. Because I am good with motors I just can not stand to have a motor that doesn't run right.


 Try a full tank of gasoline with the cap slightly loose so air can get into the gasoline tank and also check or replace the fuel filter since if that is partially plugged it can affect fuel flow. If the engine still randomly shuts off then it could be due to other reasons such as running too lean check spark plug white to extremely light plug would mean too lean. Black sooty plug too rich. Clean the carburetor well again since it could be a internal fuel flow issue. Some people have replaced their carburetors with new ones sold on ebay with good results.


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## HJames

Have you tried any of the other fixes that are further down the DIY thread. I'm curious about two of the offered solutions.

#1 heat shield solution(heat from the muffler fouling out the plug or causing a vapor lock with the gas line) 

#2 excessive moisture solution(too much moisture being pulled in with the air).


I do agree with you about having a motor you can rely on and your thread over on the tractor forum about repowering your Ariens is what convinced me to do the same with mine, but maybe it's just a piece of rubber or tin that does the trick. It seems like everyone on the DIY thread had similar issues with slight variations.


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## scipper77

No I have not tried the solutions listed later in the thread. I have run without the cap on. I suspect there may be an issue with vapor lock. I also suspect a new carb might be what I need to fix the lean condition. I think I might actually have an air leakvbecause the carb seems excessively clean. I am familiar with the trick where you spray water (or fuel) around the carb engine intake but the thing is so buried in shrouds and covers that I haven't been able to try it yet.

On another note, I am very happy to hear that my thread over in MTF helped you. I rarely ever get any feedback regarding that thread but there are so many views I just assume people are using it as a reference. 
Mechanical restoration of my 1973 Ariens snowblower. - MyTractorForum.com - The Friendliest Tractor Forum and Best Place for Tractor Information


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## scipper77

Just thought I would point out that according to post #29 in the link I posted the solution for this problem was a new engine. 

I am pretty much ready for a 212. I just can't justify the added cost of the 11 HP when I have another blower that can easily beast it's way through the thick stuff (with the 212 cc I might add).


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## Grunt

scipper77 said:


> On another note, I am very happy to hear that my thread over in MTF helped you. I rarely ever get any feedback regarding that thread but there are so many views I just assume people are using it as a reference.
> Mechanical restoration of my 1973 Ariens snowblower. - MyTractorForum.com - The Friendliest Tractor Forum and Best Place for Tractor Information


 
Thank you very much for taking the time and having the patience to thoroughly document the replacement procedure. I, like most others, are always in a hurry or to excited to take the time to let other people know how I did something. Outstanding and well documented.


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## scipper77

Grunt said:


> Thank you very much for taking the time and having the patience to thoroughly document the replacement procedure. I, like most others, are always in a hurry or to excited to take the time to let other people know how I did something. Outstanding and well documented.


You are a class act Grunt! and your welcome


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## gsnod

*Just noticed this*

On the Predator engines, the oil drain plug is metric, and in on the side of the engine. I went to HD to see if they had a threaded pipe extension to make it easier to change the oil. No luck so far, so it looks like I'll need to find an old piece of plastic milk carton to serve as a slide for the oil to flow on to the pan...

Just wanted to share....


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## Shryp

gsnod said:


> On the Predator engines, the oil drain plug is metric, and in on the side of the engine. I went to HD to see if they had a threaded pipe extension to make it easier to change the oil. No luck so far, so it looks like I'll need to find an old piece of plastic milk carton to serve as a slide for the oil to flow on to the pan...
> 
> Just wanted to share....


If you have any luck let me know. This is something I have been thinking of doing, but the $15 - $25 for the drain hoses seems a bit steep. Even if I was going to order one I don't know what size to get.


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## gsnod

Will do Shryp. As infrequently as we change the oil on these machines, I'll probably just try to find a shortcut to get it done. Starting with the first oil change after 5 hours of running starting this weekend! 



Shryp said:


> If you have any luck let me know. This is something I have been thinking of doing, but the $15 - $25 for the drain hoses seems a bit steep. Even if I was going to order one I don't know what size to get.


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## scipper77

Well with the latest batch of snow my craftsman is running quite well. I still have to run half choke but after it's been running a while i can turn off the choke and it hunts pretty bad so there is something to be done there (open up the jet ot check for intake leak is my best guess).

It did try to stall one time and I loosened the gas cap which solved that issue. Without getting too into everything I have done I think I had most everything sorted out last year with the exception of the lean condition/half choke operation. 

It still bugs the snot out of me that I can't just start the thing, warm it up, turn off the choke and go to town. I think the gas cap plugged this time because of all the snow that settled on top of the cap.


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## db130

Shryp said:


> If you have any luck let me know. This is something I have been thinking of doing, but the $15 - $25 for the drain hoses seems a bit steep. Even if I was going to order one I don't know what size to get.


Would something like this work?

Honda GX120 GX140 GX160 GX200 Oil Drain Plug Adapter Relocator | eBay

10mm x 1.25 to 1/8" NPT


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## Shryp

db130 said:


> Would something like this work?
> 
> Honda GX120 GX140 GX160 GX200 Oil Drain Plug Adapter Relocator | eBay
> 
> 10mm x 1.25 to 1/8" NPT


Not bad, but wish they were a bit cheaper. Can you confirm 10mm x 1.25 is the same thread on the Predators?


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## gsnod

Off the top of my head, that metric size is correct. I plan to simply run some plastic under the drain bolt and let it run down to the pan....unfortunately we didn't get enough snow this week for me to use my Toro with the new Predator engine. I want to give it a good workout so I can get the initial dino out of there and put in some synthetic. 



Shryp said:


> Not bad, but wish they were a bit cheaper. Can you confirm 10mm x 1.25 is the same thread on the Predators?


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## blanc12

scipper77 said:


> Just to give some background on why I am a little suspicious that there may be a design flaw with my particular setup here is a link to someone else thread I found through a google search.
> Sears Craftsman Snow Thrower Dying - DoItYourself.com Community Forums
> Just skimming it I saw post 1, 6, 20, 37,and 38 were all different people having the exact same issue that I had. Post #23 is especially interesting to me. If you click the link at least read #23.
> 
> Last season I took the fuel line, gas tank. primer assembly, and carb assembly off and blew compressed air through the lines and with lower pressure checked the needle and seat assemble and that seemed to help with the random shutting off. This year it did it again but the tank was nearly empty.
> 
> I am pretty good with small engines but this link I the biggest reason why I feel this may be a case to just cut my losses and put on a motor that I can have confidence in on it. Because I am good with motors I just can not stand to have a motor that doesn't run right.


I have the same blower and the same problem. head gasket, lapped valves, rebuilt carb, replaced carb, New coil, re-route fuel line. I was a military mechanic for over 20 years.

I am done with this engine. I ordered the 212 from Harbor freight yesterday. replacing a 8.5 hp with a 6.5 hp is no problem. I figure it will work better if it will just run for more than 20 minutes at a time.


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## scipper77

So mine actually has been running pretty good recently. What I seemed to make the biggest difference for me was filling the tank all of the way. I was only running it with half a tank or less before because I wanted the tank to be low if I decided to drain the tank for another go round of carb cleaning. I do have to loosen the gas cap every pass ot two.

The thing is junk compared to me predator, but I could remove 8-10" of snow with it if I had to so I keep that machine as my spare in case the old Ariens fails when I need it most.


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## blanc12

scipper77 said:


> So mine actually has been running pretty good recently. What I seemed to make the biggest difference for me was filling the tank all of the way. I was only running it with half a tank or less before because I wanted the tank to be low if I decided to drain the tank for another go round of carb cleaning. I do have to loosen the gas cap every pass ot two.
> 
> The thing is junk compared to me predator, but I could remove 8-10" of snow with it if I had to so I keep that machine as my spare in case the old Ariens fails when I need it most.


I put in a quarter turn shut off on it. This way i can mess with the carb without having to drain the fuel.


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## blanc12

I am wondering if the fuel is cavating. filling full of air then leaning out.
*
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