# Unsafe EV chargers being installed across Toronto as electric vehicle boom continues



## tabora (Mar 1, 2017)

CityNews







toronto.citynews.ca


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## d3500ram (Feb 5, 2017)

Shocking!


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## UNDERTAKER (Dec 30, 2013)

*Never going to own one. They will have to pry the ICE. Out of my cold DEAD Fingers.*


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## distrbd (Dec 8, 2021)

I considered buying one but the thought only lasted a few minutes, I feel more comfortable with the tried and true gasoline powered vehicles, things could change in future but where I live it gets extremely cold in winter and that's the main reason for me to stay away from EVs.


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## tadawson (Jan 3, 2018)

I gave up gasoline cars about 10 years ago, but didn't go electrotarded, I went diesel!

50 MPG in a decent size car with 800 mile range, and minutes to refill (and yes, I _DO_ use that "feature" . . . cross country trip last week - 780 miles one day with one 10 minute stop (to pee and give the dog water) and 580 the next, again with a single stop (one refuel between the days - arrived at destination with about 1/3 of a tank left). The car is more comfortable than anywhere I can stop, so why waste the time?

That, and on this route, a charger much beyond a wall plug is scarce . . . electric just fails for me in so many ways!


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## d3500ram (Feb 5, 2017)

This whole thing of going all electric gives wet dreams to the greenie- weenies when the technology is not yet making it realistically feasible. 

I read a news article on line in the last couple of days where a couple bought their daughter a used Ford EV (I think it might have been the Focus model, but not sure on that.) Well, it gave out and would not run. The dealer said it needed a whole new battery and the cost of it alone was more than they pad for it... only something like 60K miles on it but about 10 years old.

To add insult to injury, the article indicated since this model is no longer being made that the possibility of even getting a battery is slim at best. These folks are facing the real possibility of paying for a car that may no longer be usable.

Add to the pipe dreams of feeding the power to recharge these things. The grid and power sources are not there yet.

Just read now on the news that it appears a generator at the Hoover dam may have blown up! Wonder if it trying to keep up with the demand? That is only speculation on my part.


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## tabora (Mar 1, 2017)

d3500ram said:


> when the technology is not yet making it realistically feasible.


The key to making it feasible is to keep pushing the envelope. 

The first personal calculators were not very portable...









Nor was the first mobile phone...









And the first automobile was certainly no prize, at least by today's standards...


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## d3500ram (Feb 5, 2017)

Agree. Progress does not happen unless one tries, just ask Bell, Tesla or Edison. But pushing the limits and realistic expectations are two different things.

The GW's are pushing to electrify this and that with no realistic way of feeding the grid. We need more fossil fuel power plants or nuclear generators to back up the stance of where they are wanting to go. 

I think we should head in this direction EVENTUALLY. But to push it in one big gulp (apologies to 7/11) is not feasible at the rate is it being proposed.

I am working with some jurisdictions where local building code are attempting to supersede the IECC and dictate that no natural gas can be piped into new buildings! This extreme positions are ridiculous. 

And the whole thing that electrical vehicles are good for the environment is total bunk when product materials (from mining to end of life) as well as fossil fuel generated electricity elsewhere does nothing whatsoever for the almighty altar- of- environment


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## orangputeh (Nov 24, 2016)

I still dont have a smart phone....

I'm the only one (seems like it ) that has a real ol fashioned bicycle. everyone has E Bikes.

Have 2 Subaru's. One has 297K miles on it and the other has 281K miles . Tacoma has over 200k miles on it. As long as they keep passing smog will keep em going.


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## tabora (Mar 1, 2017)

So, once again I mention a headline about some aspect of electric vehicles (since the technology is likely to be the basis of future cordless OPE), and all the technophobes and EV naysayers pile on. Just gonna [fill in some clever thought here]... Definitely need that old HeadBang emoji we used to have...


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## Jackmels (Feb 18, 2013)

tabora said:


> So, once again I mention a headline about some aspect of electric vehicles (since the technology is likely to be the basis of future cordless OPE), and all the technophobes and EV naysayers pile on. Just gonna [fill in some clever thought here]... Definitely need that old HeadBang emoji we used to have...


Sylvester must have bought an EV


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## badbmwbrad (Jul 30, 2019)

This image shows a diesel-electric recharging station. Who else sees the hipocracy in this image?


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## Smsimpson (Feb 22, 2021)

The manufacturers and government are going about this electrification thing all wrong. It would make much more sense to make a hybrid vehicle that has like 50-100 miles of range on electric alone, which would cover many, not all, citizens. Then when you take the monthly long trip to grandmas or vacation, the gasoline engine kicks in. No range anxiety, no need for chargers all over the place. But a good portion of the emissions are removed. And it needs to be able to be charged overnight on 110 volts. Why pay for and lug around 300+ miles worth of batteries when most never go that far more than say a couple times a month?


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## Tony-chicago (Feb 10, 2021)

Who cannot see the whole picture


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## BullFrog (Oct 14, 2015)

No doubt this problem is going on elsewhere too and not unique to Toronto. I just hope an equivalent tax for road maintenance is applied at the charging stations so EV owners don’t feel left out of there fair share of taxes. Also what would be an appropriate battery recycling fee for EVs? They are certainly much larger than your average laptop.


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## Chils (May 13, 2021)

BullFrog said:


> No doubt this problem is going on elsewhere too and not unique to Toronto. I just hope an equivalent tax for road maintenance is applied at the charging stations so EV owners don’t feel left out of there fair share of taxes. Also what would be an appropriate battery recycling fee for EVs? They are certainly much larger than your average laptop.


Good point. I also think people don't realize what a rip off it is to pay road tax on gas powered off-road use OPE. Unless you are running a diesel and red fuel you are being unfairly taxed on fuel for off-road use.


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## Jackmels (Feb 18, 2013)

Some More EV Info....


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## Tony-chicago (Feb 10, 2021)

User taxes/fees do not cover costs.


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## BullFrog (Oct 14, 2015)

No they don't but fuel taxes are still collected at the pump that supposedly go towards it.


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## Tony-chicago (Feb 10, 2021)

And elsewhere


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## ZTMAN (Jan 11, 2018)

I am a believer in dino fuel, but when Ford announced the Lightning, I reserved one. Was one of the few that got to covert the reservation to order the stripped down Pro model.
I figure if I can get a full size 4wd truck that can go 0-60 in under 4 seconds, for under $40k, it is worth a try. Supposed to be built on the 27th of July.
I will still keep my dino truck


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## LenD (Nov 17, 2020)

ZTMAN said:


> I am a believer in dino fuel, but when Ford announced the Lightning, I reserved one. Was one of the few that got to covert the reservation to order the stripped down Pro model.
> I figure if I can get a full size 4wd truck that can go 0-60 in under 4 seconds, for under $40k, it is worth a try. Supposed to be built on the 27th of July.
> I will still keep my dino truck


I have enough issues trying to keep my butt planted in my '20 3.5L turbo ecoboost. How you gonna manage with that one?


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## ZTMAN (Jan 11, 2018)

LenD said:


> I have enough issues trying to keep my butt planted in my '20 3.5L turbo ecoboost. How you gonna manage with that one?


Soft pedal. I drove my dealer's demo for a weekend. One half pedal launch gets the need for speed out of my system.

I have a 19 with the same engine you have. Great engine and plenty of power.


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## LouC (Dec 5, 2016)

tabora said:


> So, once again I mention a headline about some aspect of electric vehicles (since the technology is likely to be the basis of future cordless OPE), and all the technophobes and EV naysayers pile on. Just gonna [fill in some clever thought here]... Definitely need that old HeadBang emoji we used to have...


Well just maybe that’s not tech phobia or Luddite thinking but some element of the TRUTH, the “green” revolution will inadvertently lead us back to an outcome:
I’ll give you a hint
It starts with N, and ends with R, and sticks around for a LONG TIME!

the evidence of the un reliability of renewables is already there in California & Texas for those who care to seek the truth. And in Cali now you can’t even have a gas generator when the energy wizards fail you. Nice. Hope they are happy In the dark & cold with their food rotting….
14 days out with Hurricane sandy I will never depend on the grid 100% ever again. Had a 5k gas gen set so wasn’t SOL. No thanks to the local power authority!
THIS, is why there is skepticism!


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## d3500ram (Feb 5, 2017)

FYI- from one of my on-line magazines:

EV Truck Camper

*Electric Ford F-150 and Four Wheel Camper Make Alaska Run*








Electric Ford F-150 and Four Wheel Camper Make Alaska Run


The Fast Lane Truck is taking a Ford F-150 Lightning all-electric truck loaded with a FWC Project M from California to Alaska.




www.truckcampermagazine.com


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## ST1300 (Feb 17, 2017)

In related news-- GM has just brought out an all electric full size Hummer pickup! It goes like a bat on acceleration but takes way longer to stop, with brake fade on the third stop in a row. (not surprising because it weighs 9640 lbs. 3000 of which is battery) Advertising says 360 miles on a charge but the test showed actual miles at 270 average. 
To me this doesn't sound like too bad a truck until you start thinking about tire wear, suspension wear, etc. And with very much payload you would be over 10,000 lbs. In our state that would legally require you to stop at all weigh scales. Or pulling a trailer you might need a commercial drivers license in some states. 
Full report can be read in the Rock Auto July newsletter. (on line auto parts dealer, for those not familiar with them)
Forgot to add the purported cost started at $101,000 !!! What a bargain.


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## scrappy (Dec 7, 2014)

ST1300 said:


> In related news-- GM has just brought out an all electric full size Hummer pickup! It goes like a bat on acceleration but takes way longer to stop, with brake fade on the third stop in a row. (not surprising because it weighs 9640 lbs. 3000 of which is battery) Advertising says 360 miles on a charge but the test showed actual miles at 270 average.
> To me this doesn't sound like too bad a truck until you start thinking about tire wear, suspension wear, etc. And with very much payload you would be over 10,000 lbs. In our state that would legally require you to stop at all weigh scales. Or pulling a trailer you might need a commercial drivers license in some states.
> Full report can be read in the Rock Auto July newsletter. (on line auto parts dealer, for those not familiar with them)


I don't understand why this hummer exists. There is nothing "green" about a 10,000 pound vehicle. It's a toy for the rich, that's all.


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## LouC (Dec 5, 2016)

It’s because they want to crow about “helping”
“Fight” “climate change” and let’s not be too cynical MAKE HUGE PROFITS. 
So let’s find out how much is the climate harmed by the manufacture & disposal of that 3,000 lb battery. Let’s have the TRUTH FOR ONCE, climate zealots!
You think you’re dragging this 1.5 ton monster of a battery off to the town recycling center like a gp 24 lead acid battery?
It will become a HUGE environmental headache….just watch….


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## Tony-chicago (Feb 10, 2021)

I can understand abhorrence to this useless monster.
To helping the environment, to helping use other methods, not really


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## d3500ram (Feb 5, 2017)




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## Tony-chicago (Feb 10, 2021)

Why the hate.
Sure lets give up....
We do need a full expose of all oil and electric. Would take some time and a lot of words. But would be immensely illuminating


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## Tony-chicago (Feb 10, 2021)

Jackmels said:


> Some More EV Info....


This has been debunked. Pure crap. Nicely done through


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## d3500ram (Feb 5, 2017)

No hate, only facts.

I am all for progress and the potential for EVs. But when politicians make edicts without real infrastructure to back up the feel-good "green" philosophy then, as a logical and rational person, I get frustrated because it does not pencil- out!

I am designing and renovating houses and structures and I need to tell my clients (who want gas appliances) that they cannot have them because politicians have determined that natural gas is "bad" for the environment. They look at me in disbelief! I tell them that we are required to install rough-ins for charging stations in their garages even if they do not want or have EVs. 

The dictates are over reaching and quite ridiculous. And it is even more profound if these politicos are in bed with the so- called "green" companies. The edicts are purely self- serving for either money or the self righteous "warm fuzzies." Well, Mr. Politician, take those damn warm fuzzies and heat yer constituents houses with it.

Off the soap box, will not reply again.


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## robstrash (Jan 24, 2015)

Our EV just turned 4 and we love it. We don’t do long car trips but did do one last year. We had no problem stopping every 3 hours for 20 minutes to charge (I usually had to pee anyway). The trick is finding the fastest chargers (Tesla Gen 3 charge very fast). After driving 8 hours with driving assist I would never do a long trip without it. Believe me, it’s nowhere near perfect but is awesome on Interstate highways.
We also produce 5kWh more power a year than we use with our solar panels so it’s truly a “green” car that is not supported by fossil fuels. Other than those 1-2 road trips we always charge at home.


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## Husqvarna_10530SBE (Oct 9, 2015)

Like others have said, new technology takes time to mature (sometimes decades). There will be growing pains, but we can't delay change because it will cause inconveniences. Mistakes will be made and we learn from them. In the long term we will be better off (if humans are still around). A lot of people just don't like change. They are set in their ways. The important thing is we all need to work together to make a change for the better.


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## Jackmels (Feb 18, 2013)

Here's some More Good News for the Electric Crowd








Electric bus fleet touted by dems taken out of service after one burned up in battery fire · American Wire News


Jack McEvoy, DCNF An electric bus fleet promoted by prominent Democrats including Connecticut Democratic Sen. Chris Murphy and Gov. Ned Lamont is being pulled from service following […]




americanwirenews.com


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## Jackmels (Feb 18, 2013)

Tony-chicago said:


> This has been debunked. Pure crap. Nicely done through


"Fact Checker" debunked or is there some evidence you care to present.


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## LenD (Nov 17, 2020)

Prices ARE going up, enough so complaints are starting








New Tesla Model 3 Owner Finds That Supercharging Is More Expensive Than Getting Gas


A person bought a new Tesla Model 3. After getting the hang of it, they started using the Supercharger network to replenish the vehicle’s battery. It didn’t take long to discover that using the automaker’s charging stations is getting quite costly. But there’s an upside to the story. Here’s...




www.autoevolution.com


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## tabora (Mar 1, 2017)

I found this article interesting; wonder if it can still be used with the GenerLink or PSP collar, or maybe it provides that generator connectivity, too?
*Siemens’ new home EV charger adapter ends need for electrical panel upgrades*


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## Tony-chicago (Feb 10, 2021)

If I understand that to read, the device goes where the meter is and thus first. The device can cover all the contingencies. If done right and adaptable, this could ease things a lot.


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## scrappy (Dec 7, 2014)

That's great if there is only 1 car at the residence. We have 4 cars here plus guests that pop in. What are we suppose to do then. Play musical cars every nite to get them on the charger?

The horse and buggy was only replaced when the technology was in place and affordable. They didn't make hay illegal and force people to buy a gas powered vehicle. 

Also who will be servicing these vehicles. Techs are leaving in droves because of EV's and there is nobody coming in to replace them.


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## Tony-chicago (Feb 10, 2021)

Whatever you say.
Sure.
Agree.
But that is not why techs are fewer.
Cars did replace the buggy, but not cause there were gas stations everywhere.
No, correct, they did not outlaw horses. Oh wait. They did a whole lot more though.
But I an pretty sure you do not want to go back to that all around.
So what if all cars were banned. Not cause of desire, but for some other reason.


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## scrappy (Dec 7, 2014)

Tony-chicago said:


> Whatever you say.
> Sure.
> Agree.
> But that is not why techs are fewer.
> ...


Tell me why techs are leaving.


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## Husqvarna_10530SBE (Oct 9, 2015)

scrappy said:


> That's great if there is only 1 car at the residence. We have 4 cars here plus guests that pop in. What are we suppose to do then. Play musical cars every nite to get them on the charger?
> 
> The horse and buggy was only replaced when the technology was in place and affordable. They didn't make hay illegal and force people to buy a gas powered vehicle.
> 
> Also who will be servicing these vehicles. Techs are leaving in droves because of EV's and there is nobody coming in to replace them.


Everyone didn't change over to gasoline powered vehicles over night. It was a gradual change. The infrastructure was built over time. Starting in more populous areas and spreading out. That is what is going on with EVs. It doesn't happen overnight. It will be expensive at first, but prices will fall with increase in production. No one is making gasoline/diesel powered vehicles illegal.

People will have to learn how to fix EVs just like people had to learn how to fix internal combustion engines. Electric is less complex. Fewer parts. Less maintenance. Dealing with the computers and their software will be the biggest hurdle, but we have been dealing with that with gas/diesel vehicles for the past 25+ years.


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## Tony-chicago (Feb 10, 2021)

Not cause of electric cars. In fact that is bringing in a few young ones.
There are fewer people going into the trade. And the older and good ones are quite tired of the way the business is run. The stealerships are a very difficult place to be. Constant strikes here. It is tough on the body, and the older ones wear out...
A job most of us here would enjoy. For a while. But again the stealerships are no place to be. I have many friends with repair places. Swamped. Hard to find anyone to help out. I would love to but my back etc. Will not let me. So I do it a bit. Pay a heavy price too.
It seems that it would be simple, should be, need, demand, jobs. But the "old" trades are not in the windshield of a lot of people. Do not get started on other trade issues...


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## scrappy (Dec 7, 2014)

Tony-chicago said:


> Not cause of electric cars. In fact that is bringing in a few young ones.
> There are fewer people going into the trade. And the older and good ones are quite tired of the way the business is run. The stealerships are a very difficult place to be. Constant strikes here. It is tough on the body, and the older ones wear out...
> A job most of us here would enjoy. For a while. But again the stealerships are no place to be. I have many friends with repair places. Swamped. Hard to find anyone to help out. I would love to but my back etc. Will not let me. So I do it a bit. Pay a heavy price too.
> It seems that it would be simple, should be, need, demand, jobs. But the "old" trades are not in the windshield of a lot of people. Do not get started on other trade issues...





Tony-chicago said:


> Not cause of electric cars. In fact that is bringing in a few young ones.
> There are fewer people going into the trade. And the older and good ones are quite tired of the way the business is run. The stealerships are a very difficult place to be. Constant strikes here. It is tough on the body, and the older ones wear out...
> A job most of us here would enjoy. For a while. But again the stealerships are no place to be. I have many friends with repair places. Swamped. Hard to find anyone to help out. I would love to but my back etc. Will not let me. So I do it a bit. Pay a heavy price too.
> It seems that it would be simple, should be, need, demand, jobs. But the "old" trades are not in the windshield of a lot of people. Do not get started on other trade issues...


The techs I know, and chat with on other forums, are not planing to work on EV's. The reasons cited are, too dangerous, pay does not match the technology, and no desire to work on them for flat rate pay. 
I did my time at a chevy store, and was stuck working on the Volt. Lost my pay check on every one. Now at GMC, have no plans to do training to work on the Hummer. The pay scale is not there. The 2 younger ones have been trained, but they have no experience in the field. You should see them when the boss brought in a snowblower for them to get running. Effin cluless! And these will be the guys working on the Hummer LOL!!! 
It's too much too quickly, being forced upon the public.


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## tabora (Mar 1, 2017)

scrappy said:


> It's too much too quickly, being forced upon the public.


What's your buggy whip stock trading at these days?


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## scrappy (Dec 7, 2014)

tabora said:


> What's your buggy whip stock trading at these days?


May go up considerably when the peasants cannot afford transportation that elitist have forced upon them. But that is all part of the plan.


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## Tony-chicago (Feb 10, 2021)

While there are a lot of things the "elitist" are doing, electric cars is not on the mountain. There are other trees


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## Jackmels (Feb 18, 2013)

I'm gonna take the bus.


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## scrappy (Dec 7, 2014)

Tony-chicago said:


> While there are a lot of things the "elitist" are doing, electric cars is not on the mountain. There are other trees


Keep drinking their cool aid....


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## Tony-chicago (Feb 10, 2021)

Anytime, anywhere


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## Toon (May 11, 2021)

I do believe electric vehicles are the future although we are not there yet with battery technology, but we're getting closer. We also need to look at infrastructure to handle the increase load on the grid. As for where this power will come from I hope it is not hydrogen based or we will end up like Mars, dry and desolate. I think thorium reactors might be a better choice.
The shortage of technicians is a result of people not wanting to work with their hands anymore. The abilities are there in the younger generations but the will to enter the trades is not. I think the trades have not been represented properly by the educational system.


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## Yanmar Ronin (Jan 31, 2015)

*Easy does it Boys... let's not go to war on this one.* 😅

Electric cars charging, 1917:










Steady on... please. 🍻


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## ST1300 (Feb 17, 2017)

This is not being controversial it is fact. Yes, gasoline powered cars have been declared illegal -- in Washington state. Our idiot politicians have declared that as of 2030 no gasoline powered vehicles will be allowed on Washington roads. So even if you have fuel and a zero emissions motor it will be illegal, period. Our governor was granted emergency powers during the covid crises and now basically refused to give it up (unfortunately no law says he has to) and so acting as a dictator has publicly stated he does not care how high the price of fuel goes and set the date to outlaw carbon fuels, natural gas (which has already been declared illegal in Seattle - no new homes can be built with it and if your gas furnace or fuel oil furnace breaks down you WILL be required to remodel to install on electric one.) And of course these fuels will be illegal in 2030 so you will will be forced to remodel/install an electric one at that point in time. Your costs will not be a factor, says the governor.
The fact that all the power companies in WA. say there is not sufficient electric power to do this has no bearing. He has hand picked a group of people that will decide where to put solar/wind farms (city, county and private land owners will have very little or no way to object).
There are currently only two very large solar farms planning to install in eastern WA. that claim ! they will be online by 2028 - 2030. So that should take care of about 1/8 to 1/4 of the Seattle cars out of the some 4 million people there. 
The real question is where will all the solar panels, wind towers needed in the USA be coming from? There are currently only 5 manufacturers of solar panels in the US, will enough manufacturing plants be built and in production by then, I really doubt it. The US will be purchasing most of them from China. And we have almost no steel production in the US so the steel needed to install wind towers, on land and off shore, will again, be purchased from China.
It's the same old idiotic political idea of shutting down US oil production and buying oil from foreign countries --- there is no carbon pollution if some other country produces what you need. 

End of story, will not post again.


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## Tony-chicago (Feb 10, 2021)

Sale of new gas cars 2030. Registering gas 2030 or later made cars in state.

Gm ford etc to stop gas cars. Well we will see if we. .


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## Yanmar Ronin (Jan 31, 2015)

I think electric cars are going to rapidly become more desirable. The battery tech is improving constantly and imo will continue to.

And some of the designs... have you seen the new Delorean?









DeLorean


DeLorean is a legacy mobility company focused on redefining human connections through creative technologies.




delorean.com





I dunno about y'all... but I do believe I could have some fun with that. 👍


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## Tony-chicago (Feb 10, 2021)

When I was younger and smaller, I could barely fit in a DeLorean. If any car needed an update..


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## sscotsman (Dec 8, 2010)

ST1300 said:


> This is not being controversial it is fact. Yes, gasoline powered cars have been declared illegal -- in Washington state. Our idiot politicians have declared that as of 2030 no gasoline powered vehicles will be allowed on Washington roads. So even if you have fuel and a zero emissions motor it will be illegal, period.





> This is not being controversial


Yes it is, because the point of your post is to spread a lie.



> it is fact


No it isnt.



> Yes, gasoline powered cars have been declared illegal -- in Washington state.


 wrong, the _sale_ of _new_ gas powered cars was declared illegal after 2030.



> as of 2030 no gasoline powered vehicles will be allowed on Washington roads.


Wrong, existing gas powered cars will still be allowed. And the sale of used gas powered cars will still be allowed.



> So even if you have fuel and a zero emissions motor it will be illegal, period


Wrong, existing gas powered cars will still be allowed. And the sale of used gas powered cars will still be allowed



> End of story, will not post again.


Great! Glad to hear it.. (but somehow I doubt it. 🤔)









Clean Cars 2030 Signed Into Law In Washington State


/PRNewswire/ -- Washington State Governor Jay Inslee signed into law a bill setting a date of 2030 for all new cars registered in the state to be electric. The...




www.prnewswire.com





I'm totally against this Washington state law, I think it's ridiculous.. I think people should be free to buy any car they want, and if electric cars are truly better, then the change will happen naturally without any laws like this needed.. but if we are going to talk about it, at least get the facts right.

Scot


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## Yanmar Ronin (Jan 31, 2015)

Second warning. Strike Three will hurt.

Steady on.


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## ST1300 (Feb 17, 2017)

sscotsman --what I wrote was what Ensley wanted, what you wrote was as far as his liberal party would go because of the election year. The whole point of the post was to say, one way or another that we ARE being forced to comply with the government edicts rather that market forces leading the way.
And to all the smart remark makers on any subject on this whole site. "Smart remarks show a lack of intelligence, because the author doesn't know a correct or wise answer. " 
sscotsman you will get your way!
Yanmar Ronin or whomever is in charge--PLEASE DISCONNECT MY MEMBERSHIP when you finish reading this.

[Edit: As requested. Take a month off to cool down. Whether or not you return comes down to you. Y.R.]


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## Tony-chicago (Feb 10, 2021)

Please stay. We can use your help. ....


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## denwood (10 mo ago)

Here's a contribution. Before you read it, here's a few facts:

1. I have a fully equipped shop/garage with a hoist and have been working on cars for nearly 40 years. This includes restoration work, engine swaps, AC rebuilding, fully automotive painting, etc.
2. We still own two ICE cars.

Two years ago we purchased a used 2018 LEAF SL for about 23K (ya, pre-covid pricing). That price included four studded winter tires with TPMS. I've had it on the hoist a fair bit and pulled all the underbody cladding to apply Noxudol (corrosion control), service brakes etc. We also regularly drive the EV to our summer camping spot, about 280 kms return.

The mechanical simplicity is staggering. Eight moving parts to the axles. My wife now prefers the EV over her Highlander which sits parked mostly. She says it is "zippy". That's 240lb/ft of torque at 0 rpm for you. The equivalent mileage on our camp trips (almost every weekend in the summer) is about 140 MPGe. Everyone else is driving full size F150 pickups at 20-25 MPG.

I charge the car for a few hours, once every 2-3 days, overnight at just 16 [email protected] It charges just fine at camp on 12 [email protected] to top it off for our return trip. The Propilot steering assist and adaptive cruise make the car very relaxing to highway drive, and it's silky quiet/smooth, while tracking like a go-cart on the highway. In winter, the instant heat along with heating steering wheel, front/rear seats are awesome. I normally pre-heat the car while plugged in when it gets down to -35 C. Range does take a 30-40% hit at -35C which is a non issue for urban use.

Will I take this car on a long trip ever? Nope. However it does manage 95% of our town driving with two kids, and costs us about $17/month to operate. Keep in mind newer EVs have larger packs, and charge faster so long tripping is a whole different game there. The battery (40KW/h) is at 88% or so, with about 80K km on the odometer. 

As a guy with a lot of mechanical experience and history with ICE, the EV is a no brainer. It's awesome. The newer cars like the Ioniq5 (800 volt system) charge astoundingly quick and come in AWD flavours with 0-60 around five seconds. I likely won't buy another ICE car...and I won't miss the PITA of all the mechanical bits. I had my brother's CRV in the shop last night to pull the valve cover and confirm he needs a new timing chain. Anyone done that job on a CRV? It sucks...and EVs don't have timing chains, exhausts, fuel injection, O2 sensors, water pumps (at least the ones you know), ignition, complicated coolant systems, blah, blah, blah. I won't miss ICE.


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## d3500ram (Feb 5, 2017)

Denwood, thanks for the real- world critique.
A couple of questions based on your experience:

Do you know the life expectancy of the batteries on your particular model?
What are the (current day) costs for replacing the battery?
Do you think that the less maintenance over the life of an EV will be a wash (or close) when compared to maintenance cost over the lifetime of a ICE vehicle?


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## denwood (10 mo ago)

Excellent questions. Anyone who just leases a car (we keep ours for a long time) will not care about the pack issues...they'll just save a lot on fuel, and have near zero maintenance.

1. The battery pack is not such a scary thing when taken into consideration. Yes, it's 400 volts (industry moving to 800V) when "live" but if you understand what is going on, pull the master disconnect etc. then dropping it and pulling it apart is not such a bad thing. It's a lot easier than rebuilding an engine and I've done a few.  Packs can be reconditioned by checking each cell module and replacing out of spec ones.

2. Anyone needing a pack currently is either getting it replaced under warranty, or buying used ones from a wreck. A new 40KW/h battery from Nissan is likely about $7K (USD). More and more companies will appear who "rebuild" packs and resell them. A pack can be dropped out a LEAF in about an hour or less.

3. Maintenance on an EV is nearly zero. Brakes last forever as most braking is done by regenerative charging on an EV. I just service the brakes (lube the caliper pins etc) once a year. This (aside from the zero fuel cost) is where a lot of savings are. The local "cheap" quote for doing a CRV timing chain (did one on our own CRV, my brother needs one too now) is $1800.

4. Packs degrade about 10% in the first 1-2 years, then stabilise at a much lower rate. Cars with BTS (battery thermal management a.k.a active cooling) see less degradation than the LEAF typically..although in our cool climate, it's not an issue. The battery will generally drop in capacity slowly, affecting your range. So you really only need to replace/recondition if you need max range after say 10-12 years in normal use. There is quite a market in used cell modules as they are very high quality..and folks use them for all sorts of projects.

Consider the infrastructure for recycling lead acid batteries (pretty cheap to build new) and then consider how lucrative the lithium market (much higher value components) will be! Keep in mind that cars/companies like the Lightyear One (https://lightyear.one/lightyear-0/) are introducing new tech that perhaps paints a picture of where the market may go with cars that don't need to be plugged in at all. A Hummer EV is pretty stupid (my opinion) in that it weights 8000lbs and is in no way approaching any kind of efficiency. I really hope we're collectively smarter than that...

Btw, our little 2018 LEAF (by no means a "looker") will do 0-30 mph in about 2.5 seconds. You'd be shocked and amazed how many sports cars I've left behind at the lights


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## JJG723 (Mar 7, 2015)




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## denwood (10 mo ago)

Yes, the net carbon neutrality of the your EV has a lot to do with where you live so in my area, it's pretty much neutral. Also remember that even an inexpensive EV regularly exceeds 120 MPGe. So even if you're using "dirty" power to charge an EV, it's still a lot less energy/emissions than if you were driving an ICE vehicle. That said, it is a lot easier to control emissions at a point source (scrubber tech exists for CO2 too) than on a vehicle. It is also 100% true that agriculture, industry (things like cement production), commercial/residential HVAC take larger pieces of the problem pie than vehicles. The solution to carbon is much more complicated than just driving an EV.

This is a very interesting piece on the attitudes towards cars in the early days when horses and bicycles were the norm. What we're seeing and hearing about EVs is not so unusual. 









Get A Horse! America’s Skepticism Toward the First Automobiles | The Saturday Evening Post


The inventor who claimed the first U.S. car ever sold recalls the birth of the industry and the general public skepticism about automobiles.




www.saturdayeveningpost.com





"But the great obstacle to the development of the automobile was the lack of public inter- est. To advocate replacing the horse, which had served man through centuries, marked one as an imbecile."

On an another note, Air Canada just purchased thirty ES-30 electric aircraft from Heart Aerospace in Sweden.


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## d3500ram (Feb 5, 2017)

Yes, but the transition from horse to automobile was not governments forced back then as are the EV's today.


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## denwood (10 mo ago)

I'm not going there, however my favourite comparative is the Montreal Agreement in 1987 that addressed CFC chemicals known to cause ozone depletion. This is working (ozone levels are recovering), but only because there was an international agreement. Industry had no incentive to stop using CFCs.

These threads (on EVs) spark a surprising level of controversy so in the interest of good discussion, I will bow out. I'm a 100% wrench head who has worked on ICE cars for nearly 40 years. I also work in the tech industry. I've been "under the hood" on both and currently drive an EV. I just think EVs in general are a much better option for many, particularly if you're paying someone to maintain/repair your car. We do have two ICE cars..so I still maintain (begrudgingly) them and will continue to repair them as required.

With respect to the "haters", I get it. My brother and I were invited to "guy's weekend" out at camp and for him, it was the first trip in an EV. He had range anxiety, over a drive that I have 30-40 times and therefore have zero range anxiety. His attitude on EVs did change a lot though after spending a few hours in one  We are all conditioned to the whole "fill the tank" thing...which you quickly learn to forget if driving an EV.

Snowblowers with high workloads and pickup trucks towing trailers...there is work to do there with respect to EV tech.


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## crazzywolfie (Jun 2, 2014)

denwood said:


> Maintenance on an EV is nearly zero. *Brakes last forever* as most braking is done by regenerative charging on an EV. I just service the brakes (lube the caliper pins etc) once a year


i have heard otherwise by some. i heard that because they don't get used as much because of the regenerative braking the brakes rarely get hot enough to keep the moisture away and prevent delamination between the braking material and and backing plate.

i would say they may seem simple from a mechanical stand point electrically they are likely a nightmare. i am not against them but would likely only consider them when batteries become way more affordable. a new battery for a 10 year old vehicle should not be $20k. a car is lucky to be worth $10-20k after 10 years and most cars only only worth about scrap value after 15-20 years because in most case they cost way more to repair than you could buy something newer for.


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## denwood (10 mo ago)

I didn't mean that "brakes last forever" literally  Pad wear is far less than on an ICE car. I said I was going to bow out..but you raise some good questions.

Many EV's (LEAF included) have something called one pedal drive (E-pedal). This allows you to drive in most conditions by just modulating the accelerator so the car will come to a stop fairly quickly as you back off the accelerator. It's a great feature and I use it often. In order to accomplish this the car must have additional smarts on the braking system, aside from ABS. It also means that the brakes are used every time you stop particularly, at lower speed where regen can't do much. The brakes are actually in play quite often on these cars, but not for the bulk of stopping duties. For example, if you decelerate on a snowy hill with a front drive EV, you'd expect a disaster (swapping front for tail) as regen would load up the front wheels. This doesn't happen fortunately as the car's ESC/brake system will apply some rear brake pressure to keep everything safe and stable. In normal operation, again the brakes can be loaded up more than you think as a full battery can't provide much in the way of regen braking...there's no place to put the current  You have three option, D, B, or E-pedal on most EVs now so the level of regen vs friction braking will differ across them.

The parking brake (at least on the newer LEAF) is the same as most electrically operated ebrakes out there. Just a motor driven actuator mounted to each rear caliper.

Brake fluid maintenance on an EV is important, as the controller is expensive to replace! And yes, the car will stop with no power via the conventional master cylinder setup.


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## crazzywolfie (Jun 2, 2014)

denwood said:


> *I didn't mean that "brakes last forever" literally * Pad wear is far less than on an ICE car. I said I was going to bow out..but you raise some good questions.


i get that. i was more so thinking along the lines of if you have to replace the pads every few years because of delamination is not really much different than having to replace your brakes every couple years because they have worn out. pads lasting longer don't do you much good if they separate from the backing plate and need to be replaced. i heard this was a pretty big issues on stuff like the toyta prius.


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## tabora (Mar 1, 2017)

Tech: Why Don’t Tires Last as Long on an EV? Clean Fleet Report


EVs may run through tires faster, but they require less maintenance overall.




cleanfleetreport.com


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## d3500ram (Feb 5, 2017)

Denwood, I also said I would bow- out as well. But your post from a couple days ago made some interesting points to which I inquired/ replied. If it can be kept civil then no reason to shy away... yes, and that would include respectfull rebuttals that migth be from a political stand point.


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## denwood (10 mo ago)

@crazzywolfie , I've honestly never seen brake pad delamination in my 40 years working on cars..and for 10 of them I was auto-crossing competitively. That said, there may be something about the Prius pads I'm not aware as I've never worked on one.

@d3500ram , agree 100%  

Tabora, you're correct in that in say a FWD EV, the front wheels will take a larger load than normally you'd say if braking with an ICE. The LEAF came with OEM Ecopia tires that were done when I bought it. I replace those with the Ecopia EP422 Plus which wear a lot better. The EP422 Plus is a very low rolling resistance and very quiet on the highway too. I run studded winters so cold weather performance was not a consideration. I also measure tread wear for summer/winter tire swaps ( the meat goes up front) and have found that the LEAF tires (had them for two years now) are wearing almost perfectly symmetrical. I was not expecting that, so was a bit surprised.


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## michaelnel (Feb 12, 2019)

Does this thread have anything to do with electric snowblowers?


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## Chils (May 13, 2021)

michaelnel said:


> Does this thread have anything to do with electric snowblowers?


No but this is as good a place as any for it and staff has no problem with it being here.


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## ZTMAN (Jan 11, 2018)

Here is what a Ford Lightning Pro looks like. So far, so good. I was supposed to sign the papers for it on a Monday. Found it in my driveway when I came home on the Friday before. Dealer told me he thought I might want to drive it on the weekend.


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## crazzywolfie (Jun 2, 2014)

denwood said:


> @crazzywolfie , I've honestly never seen brake pad delamination in my 40 years working on cars..and for 10 of them I was auto-crossing competitively. That said, there may be something about the Prius pads I'm not aware as I've never worked on one.


i have seen it many times. you usually see it on vehicles that sit. rust usually gets between the pad and backing plate and sitting without driving just lets the rust get in there and things fall apart. it is part of why i preffer to buy riveted pads still.


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## crazzywolfie (Jun 2, 2014)

crazzywolfie said:


> i have seen it many times. you usually see it on vehicles that sit. rust usually gets between the pad and backing plate and sitting without driving just lets the rust get in there and things fall apart. same would go for vehicles that don't get the brakes up to temp regularly. it is part of why i preffer to buy riveted pads still.


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## Yanmar Ronin (Jan 31, 2015)

michaelnel said:


> Does this thread have anything to do with electric snowblowers?


Please don't be "that guy"... also please see thread updated title.

Clearly everyone in here is interested in electrics, and the tech is relevant to how smaller machines evolve.

Steady as she goes. 🍻


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## d3500ram (Feb 5, 2017)

A little topical humor:


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## denwood (10 mo ago)

Yanmar Ronin said:


> Please don't be "that guy"... also please see thread updated title.
> 
> Clearly everyone in here is interested in electrics, and the tech is relevant to how smaller machines evolve.
> 
> Steady as she goes. 🍻


My snowblower and emergency Inverter/Generator are the only devices (other than the ICE cars) I own that use fuel. As a guy who really likes his EV (and drives it in nasty winter conditions), using a snowblower for an hour in -35C (we see these temps often in Jan/Feb) is one of those scenarios where electric makes no sense. When it does, I'll be replacing with electric corded or cordless (in that order) like all my other tools  I don't use anything cordless unless it makes sense for the tool.


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## distrbd (Dec 8, 2021)

denwood said:


> As a guy who really likes his EV (and drives it in nasty winter conditions),
> 
> 
> > May I ask what kind of Electric car do you have? I'm in the market to buy a new or good used four wheel drive car/SUV, at age 68 it will most likely be the last vehicle I'll own, (I keep my cars for 15-20 years) , our winters here are extremely cold and being near a lake makes simple winter driving a real chore some days that's why I am thinking a 4 wheel drive vehicle is a must specially compare to my 4 cylinder Civic which I've own since I bought it new in 2007 and is still going strong.
> > I am under the assumption that an electric car may not do so well in rural areas like where I live.


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## Tony-chicago (Feb 10, 2021)

Keep your Civic. Buying a car right now is a real pita.


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## denwood (10 mo ago)

If your civic is going strong, I’d say drive it until it dies. Buying used right now makes no sense, so I’d only look at new EVs if you want to go that way.

We own a 2018 LEAF, now at about 75 000 kms. Depending on budget, I’d take a good look at the Hyundai Ioniq 5 as it satisfies the small SUV with AWD EV requirement. The long range fully loaded AWD version will do 0-60 in under 5 seconds but won’t break the bank. You can get the AWD in leases expensive trim pacakages too. Long preorder times prevail. $58K CAD for the fully optioned AWD but prices start a lot lower. It can be rapid charged much faster than almost any EV out there (at any price) due to the 800V inverter/battery pack.

We drive our car regularly in temps below -25C, as low as -35C. Heat is pretty much instant. At those temps, expect range to take a 40% hit as you’ll need heat. As it warms up these cars have heat pumps that will do more (or all) of the HVAC duties so your range hit will be a lot less.

Studded winters are 100% ok in extreme winter for us. The only issue with most EVs is ground clearance. If you are going to be bashing drifts, or trying to drive through 16” hardened snow banks, EV (or any small car really). The Ioniq 5 though does have more ground clearance than our LEAF

I really like the Subaru Cross-Trek as a small, cost effective AWD that you can crash drifts in. My dad is about 45 km out of town and has had excellent service from a string of Subaru’s. Current one is an Outback…again a tank in snow.

How far would you need to drive in a day? What is your lowest ambient winter temp?


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## distrbd (Dec 8, 2021)

Thank you for your post denwood,, I have not looked at EVs at all or their prices but that IONIQ5 looks good to me although I need to get used to the look of the dash, lol.

You asked how long I drive daily, to tell you the truth I should calculate weekly because since we retired, my car sits outside collecting dust for days or until I go once a week for groceries or appointments and what not. I'm thinking if I went with an EV,, I would probably have to have some type of trickle charge for it to keep it topped up .

Where I live (Selwyn/Peterborough) gets a lot snow, many windy cold minus 35C° ,12" to 18" of snow (lowest ambient winter temp? -13C° to -17C°), my wife and I spend many days indoors but we don't mind it, wife thinks it's kinda cozy here in winter , I don't,, because I'm the only one that drives and does the plowing.

whatever the cost of a new EV is , I still need to contract an electrician to connect charging booth here for the car which is an added cost but it'll all pay for itself I hope.

Any how, I'll keep looking and weighing my options, the Civic has been a workhorse for me, it is my 3rd civic, I also plan to look at the new Honda cr v hybrid 2023 but don't have clue about their prices.


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## denwood (10 mo ago)

After hosting our LEAF in a local EV car show on Saturday, I had a good look at the Kia EV6 (GT) which I had not seen previous. There was also an F150 Lightning there. Drove my first Tesla Model 3 Dual Motor with full self drive. That was a complete hoot to drive with 0-60 at 4.2 seconds.

I'd say the Ioniq 5 and Kia EV 6 (same platform) are the ones I'd be looking at right now if I was looking for an AWD EV with great performance and range but about $20K less than a Tesla.

I saw a few Model 3s at the show with obvious paint issues...as in paint falling off the vehicle at sills and fenders...not a good sign. The issue is not impact, but rather paint adhesion.


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## d3500ram (Feb 5, 2017)

*Electric vehicles are exploding from water damage after Hurricane Ian, top Florida official warns:*








Electric vehicles are exploding from water damage after Hurricane Ian, top Florida official warns


Florida's chief fire marshal warned Thursday that Hurricane Ian waterlogged a number of EVs and their sensitive batteries, creating a serious widespread danger of fires.




www.foxnews.com


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## denwood (10 mo ago)

I think there are somewhere in the order of 150 ICE vehicle fires *per day* in the US : https://www.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/pdf/statistics/v19i2.pdf

Virtually none of these fires makes the news though.

There is no argument on the incidence of EV fire vs ICE fires..EVs have far fewer fires/1000 vehicles. That said, a flooded EV is going to have issues, like any car and the main service disconnect should be pulled if an EV has been flooded. The battery pack in all EVs is very much sealed, and in some cases slightly pressurised, so under some water, is not likely to flood internally. I'd still be pulling the service disconnect though to isolate the 400 (or 800V on some new EVs) pack.

If a pack does light up though, yep, it's a lot harder to put out as there is a lot of energy there to release.


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## Tseg (Jan 29, 2021)

ST1300 said:


> In related news-- GM has just brought out an all electric full size Hummer pickup! It goes like a bat on acceleration but takes way longer to stop, with brake fade on the third stop in a row. (not surprising because it weighs 9640 lbs. 3000 of which is battery) Advertising says 360 miles on a charge but the test showed actual miles at 270 average.
> To me this doesn't sound like too bad a truck until you start thinking about tire wear, suspension wear, etc. And with very much payload you would be over 10,000 lbs. In our state that would legally require you to stop at all weigh scales. Or pulling a trailer you might need a commercial drivers license in some states.
> Full report can be read in the Rock Auto July newsletter. (on line auto parts dealer, for those not familiar with them)
> Forgot to add the purported cost started at $101,000 !!! What a bargain.


I Bought a $115,000 GMC Hummer EV and It IMMEDIATELY Left Me Stranded! - YouTube


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## JJG723 (Mar 7, 2015)

Tseg said:


> I Bought a $115,000 GMC Hummer EV and It IMMEDIATELY Left Me Stranded! - YouTube


I watched this shortly after it was originally posted on their channel. This is what happens when you're driving a computer and not an automobile.


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## crazzywolfie (Jun 2, 2014)

denwood said:


> That said, a flooded EV is going to have issues, like any car and the main service disconnect should be pulled if an EV has been flooded.


i could be wrong but i don't know if the service disconnect would work. obviously the power has to go through wire to get to the service disconnect and with recent flooding we are talking about salt water so removing the service disconnect may even do nothing in some cases. wires could corrode or short out at a different connector and be the cause of a fire.


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## Tseg (Jan 29, 2021)

JJG723 said:


> I watched this shortly after it was originally posted on their channel. This is what happens when you're driving a computer and not an automobile.


It also highlights the importance of manual over-rides/redundancy (ie, ease of opening hood to get to battery when electric powered opener is not responsive). From a manufacturing standpoint, electrical is fantastic, as all is very robot friendly plug and play. Adding manual redundancy adds cost and complexity to manufacturing and design. I'm sure they'll get things right at some point. But it reminds me how the Honda HSS1132 has an engine shut off AND shear pins to deal with a jam. I believe some new Toros (and maybe others) have just an auto-shut off if a jam occurs. I suppose there could be testing that shows the electric controlled shut off fails only once in a million jams, so just a handful globally per year... But might it be a lot less than 1 in a million?


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## denwood (10 mo ago)

crazzywolfie said:


> i could be wrong but i don't know if the service disconnect would work. obviously the power has to go through wire to get to the service disconnect and with recent flooding we are talking about salt water so removing the service disconnect may even do nothing in some cases. wires could corrode or short out at a different connector and be the cause of a fire.


I can't speak for all EVs, however in general the main disconnect (in a LEAF accessible via the back seat tunnel) isolates the battery pack (400 V) from the rest of the vehicle's high voltage system. As the battery pack is sealed and slightly pressurised, it's unlikely that it itself would flood. If you'd like to deep dive, check this: https://owners.nissanusa.com/conten...des/LEAF/2019/2019-leaf-dismantling-guide.pdf

With a flooded EV, (assuming it is not in water) disconnecting the 12V battery and high voltage disconnect is about as much as you can do to mitigate a fire. Going into a post flooded EV and doing any of this requires 100% that you understand what you're doing, and the risks. 400V will wreck your day in a hurry. Newer packs on Porsche, Hyundai and Kia are 800V.

And yes, an EV requires the 12V battery system to run the computer etc....so a bad 12V battery will result in a no-start condition just like an ICE car. They can be "jumped" if that happens. The 12V system is monitored and battery charged using a DC to DC converter, via the high voltage pack. The leaf ironically has a manual hood release only...ha.


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## crazzywolfie (Jun 2, 2014)

denwood said:


> With a flooded EV, (assuming it is not in water) disconnecting the 12V battery and high voltage disconnect is about as much as you can do to mitigate a fire.


but it most likely wont stop them from catching on fire especially if they were in a salt water flood like most of the vehicles in Florida that have been catching fire. if it was just regular non salt water flood then disconnecting the system would most likely work but the salt water speeds up corrosion especially with how long some of the vehicles sat under water.


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## Toon (May 11, 2021)

Although the salt water does increase corrosion, I doubt that it causes the fire in short order, as in a tropical storm flood. I believe that salt in the water increases the waters conductivity and facilitates a current path even without corrosion. Disconnecting the battery and keeping the connector as high as possible to keep it dry is still a good idea, but it is not a failsafe if the saltwater reaches the connector.


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## crazzywolfie (Jun 2, 2014)

Toon said:


> Although the salt water does increase corrosion, I doubt that it causes the fire in short order, as in a tropical storm flood.


the fires are not happening when the cars are under water. they are starting to happen as things dry out. i would assume the biggest issue is the salt water getting into connectors that should are water proof but not really meant to sit submerged. salt water gets in there causing corrosion and then you get


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## d3500ram (Feb 5, 2017)

Interesting article on wind towers:

*The wind turbines on his Colorado farm are 20 years old. Who’s going to take them down?*


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## orangputeh (Nov 24, 2016)

After hearing about the EV fires when the flooded salt water hit them after the hurricane I was wondering about road departments that still salt their roads in winter?


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## crazzywolfie (Jun 2, 2014)

orangputeh said:


> After hearing about the EV fires when the flooded salt water hit them after the hurricane I was wondering about road departments that still salt their roads in winter?


sitting submerged in salt water is different than having salt water sprayed up at things. it is kind of like IP rating. i doubt most connectors on vehicles are IP67 or IP68 rated since realistically they likely only need to be IP65 or IP66 rated since they should not under normal driving be fully submerged. i have had this issue when ordering LED's in the past. seller claimed they were IP67 rated and they took on water super quick when dunked in the sink to prove a point to the seller. did at least get a refund on them.


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## Toon (May 11, 2021)

orangputeh said:


> After hearing about the EV fires when the flooded salt water hit them after the hurricane I was wondering about road departments that still salt their roads in winter?


This might help in understanding the effect of salt in water increasing conductivity and causing short circuits in batteries. 
Salt water conduction
The effects of salt spray hitting exposed electrical components will cause problems, but it will take a lot longer.


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## denwood (10 mo ago)

The high voltage connections under the car (just 1 to the pack) are very robust and designed well beyond anything you've seen in an ICE car. Additionally, there are full chassis aero panels under the car from front to rear. I had them all off during application of Noxudol corrosion wax to our 2018 LEAF. We see a lot of salt/sand here from later November into April with last year's snow pack over 3 metres (10 feet). That's a lot of road salt.

Chassis/aero panels off the car:










Looking underneath, with trays in place:



















Trays off with Noxudol 300 applied:










Four winters and about 80K kms. I would not own a Tesla here (particularly a model 3) until they sort their paint adhesion issues. We had an EV show a few weeks back and all of the 2-4 year old Model 3s had paint falling off the fender/sill areas :-( This car has had _precisely zero issues _of any kind since new, 4 years and counting. Just wipers and a set of tires.


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## paulm12 (May 22, 2015)

denwood said:


> The high voltage connections under the car (just 1 to the pack) are very robust and designed well beyond anything you've seen in an ICE car. Additionally, there are full chassis aero panels under the car from front to rear. I had them all off during application of Noxudol corrosion wax to our 2018 LEAF. We see a lot of salt/sand here from later November into April with last year's snow pack over 3 metres (10 feet). That's a lot of road salt.
> 
> Chassis/aero panels off the car:
> 
> ...



thanks for the explanation and pics. Car looks great.


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## d3500ram (Feb 5, 2017)

Pretty cool what some of the custom gearheads are doing, this posted today on Jay Leno's Garage:


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